the great comic book clash, issue 0: working out the kinks

[mitchables]

welcome forumgoers to the first great comic book clash, in which we see achingly similar characters go head-to-head in a battle of wits, resources, powers, and other advantages as we try to determine which near doppelganger IS THE VICTOR! i realise this is not strictly a tv/movies topic but it would get buried in casual and there's no book forum, and wrestling? you're kidding.

round zero: lex luthor (dc) vs. wilson 'the kingpin' fisk (marvel)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ad/Luthor_bright.png/250px-Luthor_bright.png vs. http://ctrlaltkill.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/440px-kingpin_head.jpg

they are both ludicrously intelligent, wealthy, ruthless, powerful, and bald. they have criminal empires so expansive it would make your head spin even to consider it. but not theirs, for they are evil geniuses. also, one is several times fatter than the other.

so, luthor and fisk find themselves in a turf war. who wins? why?

[Rammsteinmad]

Bearing in mind I'll mostly be biased towards Marvel characters, but definitely going with Wilson Fisk on this one.

Never really cared much about Lex Luthor, and always thought it was lame the way Superman could never properly 'beat' him. I don't care about him being President or anything like that...

[mitchables]

well, it wasn't so much that superman couldn't properly 'beat' him. it's that he wouldn't. it would be effortless for him to shoot some heat vision straight into lex's brain and be done with it but that would have a terrible effect on sales.

here's what i'm thinking: luthor obviously has a lot of political strings at his disposal. after all, he was president. i know you don't care about that but that put him in a position to do a lot of things he had always wanted to. but for fisk, controlling HYDRA and the other factions he's affiliated himself with would also afford him a lot of power in dark places. fisk has enforcers like tombstone and, uh, the enforcers, but luthor has people on the payroll too, so they're not going to be able to cripple each other with capes or hired powers.

i think, at the base of it, it will come down to this:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/308/359337-157705-lex-luthor_super.jpg

this suit. this suit right here. lex slips that baby on and knocks fisk onto his back, you can bet that is going to look like a big turtle trying to flip itself off its shell.

ftw: lex luthor

[mitchables]

can't get over how similar those pictures of fisk and luthor are meanwhile. think i lucked out nicely for the visual comparison, like the facial shading, one's in a black suit with a white tie, the other in white with black. the luthor pic looks like a cropped version of a different kingpin pic.

[BigDaddyCool]

omg, I was actually talking about this with my friends and kane knight saturday.

I think Luthor would win because it is ultimately a battle of wits for these too. If it came down to all out brawl, Fisk would clearly win. Which is why Luthor would never allow that to happen. If I am not mistaken Fisk is only highly intellegent, while Luthor is suppose to be the smartest man on earth.

[mitchables]

see in a brawl though luthor would inevitably use the suit. i mean if we're talking luthor gets jumped on the street, then yeah, fisk would cream him and nobody on earth would argue with the likelihood of it happening. but if he was prepared for a throwdown there's no way he wouldn't be rocking the green and purple, which i guess makes him a bit like norman osborn. maybe that would have been a better competition. whatever, live and learn.

[KIRA]

omg, I was actually talking about this with my friends and kane knight saturday.

I think Luthor would win because it is ultimately a battle of wits for these too. If it came down to all out brawl, Fisk would clearly win. Which is why Luthor would never allow that to happen. If I am not mistaken Fisk is only highly intelligence, while Luthor is suppose to be the smartest man on earth.

This basically Luthor is known for inventing things and having an extrodinarily brillant mind whereas kingpin is for a lack of a better term Wallstreet smart meaning that his intelligence allows him to make brilliant business moves(legal or illegal) and allows him to hire the right people to do whatever job needs doing.

If it did come down to a brawl I'm sure Lex would invent something to put him on equal footing with or give him the edge against Fisk.




If they just run into one another on the street Luthor could be a dead man

[Fignuts]

Would have gone with Luthor vs Dr. Doom, because this isn't even a contest. Yeah, Fisk is intelligent and has a criminal empire, but Luthor operates on a whole other level. As smart as fisk is, Luthor is one of the smartest men on the planet.

Also, Fisk has a lot of resources in the criminal world, but Luthor's resources are seemingly infinite. And in a physical battle, luthor in the suit would spank wilson.

Bad choice, mitch.

[Jeritron]

I voted Luthor because, well, he's Lex Luthor. Kingpin is great, and I love that he does double duty with Spidey and Daredevil, but he's not even the best Spiderman villain.
Luthor is by far Superman's greatest villain, and is up there in the Top 5 of comic book villains. I'd only put Joker, Magneto and Dr. Doom higher.

[Jeritron]

And Ozymandius. Actually, Luthor vs Ozy would be a really cool debate

[mitchables]

i dunno, i don't think it was awful. i think doom vs luthor is a heightened version of your criticism though, since doom has powers and owns a country etc etc. there's nothing stopping fisk from building a suit like lex. just because he hasn't doesn't mean he can't.

anyway. it was a test run for the concept. they still have tonnes in common that was used as the basis for the contest. i already said maybe osborn would have been better, but whatever.

planning on going with supes vs. sentry, bucky vs. jason todd, and hulk vs. solomon grundy, among others, in the near future. happier with that?

[mitchables]

that was to figski obviously.

[KIRA]

And Ozymandius. Actually, Luthor vs Ozy would be a really cool debate I'd give it to Ozymandius for one simple fact which I'm not sure Luthor has ever done, Ozymandius "pressed the button 5 mins before you got here" and now hes just letting you know just because.

[Skippord]

I don't know enough about Superman's mythology to vote in this

even still I would probably go with Luthor because of his suit

[mitchables]

And Ozymandius. Actually, Luthor vs Ozy would be a really cool debate

this is true, but i'm trying to avoid pitting people from the same label together, even though watchmen is not really in the same continuity as mainline dc. be like me pitting spider-man against ultimate spider-man.

[Jeritron]

Would have gone with Luthor vs Dr. Doom, because this isn't even a contest. Yeah, Fisk is intelligent and has a criminal empire, but Luthor operates on a whole other level. As smart as fisk is, Luthor is one of the smartest men on the planet.

Also, Fisk has a lot of resources in the criminal world, but Luthor's resources are seemingly infinite. And in a physical battle, luthor in the suit would spank wilson.

Bad choice, mitch.

Maybe he's building up the contests? I hope this keeps going. Will the winner carry over into the next volume, or will you just do random matchups?
Will it work like Better Wrestler/Better Movie, with increasing challenges and a hall of fame?

[mitchables]

jeri: well, i was aiming more at pitting characters of similar ilks against each other. so to look at the examples i posted above, in superman vs the sentry you have two guys with immeasurable power and the demonstrated ability to use it (this could also go the way of having supes saved for a different match-up and replaced with captain marvel, since both cap and sentry have to 'change' into their super-powered selves, and cap is so similar to superman anyways...). in bucky and jason you have two former sidekicks who both at one point hunt their mentor and then assume their mantle in their absence, one altruistically, the other in a demented, blood-soaked rampage. hulk and grundy, well, you've got two guys with the brains of peas and unbridled rage fuelled-strength, who - if they had the capacity to do so - would tell you that they're not monsters, really; they're just misunderstood.

i dunno, that idea might suck though. if you think winners of battles should stay in until they're defeated i'm open to suggestion. it's kind of a work in progress.

[mitchables]

i guess it's about finding out, if we could have one comic book universe in which these archetypes had to exist - the stretchy guy, the insane archenemy, the king of atlantis... which character would we rather see fill the spot, and what that would look like. if it would be mostly marvel, or dc, or if the independent labels would have a showing. would we have john constantines and hellboys running around in place of better known substitutes? i dunno. i am curious.

[Fignuts]

i dunno, i don't think it was awful. i think doom vs luthor is a heightened version of your criticism though, since doom has powers and owns a country etc etc. there's nothing stopping fisk from building a suit like lex. just because he hasn't doesn't mean he can't.

anyway. it was a test run for the concept. they still have tonnes in common that was used as the basis for the contest. i already said maybe osborn would have been better, but whatever.

planning on going with supes vs. sentry, bucky vs. jason todd, and hulk vs. solomon grundy, among others, in the near future. happier with that?

Luthor goes toe to toe with superman in the suit, so doom having powers isn't really a concern, I think. Doom owning a country isn't a big deal to me, because it is some pissant country the size of milwaukee. Not some giant military power. It would come down to a battle of intellect and resources, and in that regard, they are pretty much dead even.

Also, I disagree about "hired goons" not factoring into Luthor vs Fisk. Fisk can only really get more down to earth villains on his side. Bullseye is probably the best he can come up with. But Luthor, using either money or manipulation, could get just about any villain on earth to do what he wants.

Your other suggestions are much better, although I think Hulk would win in a landslide against grundy. May I suggest Deathstroke vs Deadpool.

[Jeritron]

venom vs bane

[mitchables]

deathstroke vs. deadpool was an absolute given ;) hulk vs grundy is admittedly a bit tipped at the outset but i don't think there's a particularly great comparison point for hulk in dc outside of that, y'know? unless you can think of anyone.

was also going to do sandman vs clayface, ant-man vs the atom, mr. fantastic vs plastic man, johnny storm vs fire, black cat vs catwoman, green goblin vs the joker, tarantula vs spider-woman, batman vs moon knight (possibly iron man but...ehhh), ms. marvel vs wonder woman, the flash vs quicksilver, darkseid vs apocalypse, professor x vs the chief, aquaman vs namor, and dr. strange vs dr. fate.

i'll take any other suggestions too. would juggernaut be better for grundy?

i think you're right about luthor and doom too, hearing your arguments. luthor vs doom and black mask vs fisk. or fisk vs cobblepot. that would have been more equal. ugh. didn't even think of it.

[mitchables]

venom vs bane, i like that.

[mitchables]

vision vs red tornado

[Lock Jaw]

Going to have to go with Luthor on this one. There is just something terrible and ruthless about him. He is one of the world's smartest men, but uses that for his own purposes. All the while he believes one hundred percent that he is in the right.

Kingpin knows exactly what he is. Runs a criminal cartel. He has impressive connections, no doubt. He also has his extreme toughness and strength going for him, but Luthor's science (his suit, etc) takes that away.

One of my favorite Lex images:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/news/52_week35.jpg

[mitchables]

actually, there's nothing to stop me from doing the luthor/doom and fisk/mask-or-cobblepot competition down the line because look, i edited the thread title. okay, it wasn't the best choice and fignuts has shown that even in the lines of my own logic for the competition there are better choices so i'm using this as a test run, to see how people reacted and whether the idea had legs and that was the plan all along. :shifty:

[Fignuts]

YES Black Mask vs Fisk would have been the way to go. Also, Juggernaut is a much better choice. There are not many people in either universe imo, that can take on the hulk. He's more than just some big strong guy. He's got a healing factor that puts wolverine's to shame, as well as an immunity to countless attacks like telepathy and the like.

[Jeritron]

silver surfer vs green lantern

[LuigiD]

I don't know much about DC comics. I have read a couple of books, series and graphic novels so my knowledge of it is not as deep as with Marvel. HOWEVER, to me it seems that Luthor is a pretty intelligent fella..more than the Kingpin. Furthermore, he seems to be something among the lines of an evil version of Tony Stark. Fisk just uses brutal force with his fights or hires thugs. I am giving the edge...to Luthor.

[mitchables]

silver surfer vs green lantern

thank you. i was thinking so hard of a green lantern match-up and i just couldn't think of anyone.

[Lock Jaw]

Nova vs Green Lantern seems pretty obvious.

[Lock Jaw]

Also, Lex Luthor would distract Kingpin with cakes. Forty cakes.

http://are-are.net/wp-content/gallery/etc/6345cfb094072774a7a18ffc8620ba85.jpg

[LuigiD]

silver surfer vs green lantern

This was already done back in the 90's with the Marvel vs. DC event. The results were interesting.
It was not with Hal Jordan tho.

[Jeritron]

Yea it was one of the marvel vs dc matchups I loved. I really wasn't a fan of most of those matchups.

[Jeritron]

Spiderman slumming with Superboy? Come on. I don't care if their powers or characters are a good match. Spiderman is Spiderman. He should have been squaring off with no less than Batman.

[LuigiD]

I don't remember much of the matches but I do remember the ones I liked. I was a fan of the Cap vs. Batman. The Superman vs. Hulk match wasn't bad. They never got around to doing Darkseid vs. Thanos..but I nominate Thanos as the winner.

[mitchables]

Nova vs Green Lantern seems pretty obvious.

don't really follow nova, so it didn't jump out to me. :-\

[Jeritron]

I don't remember much of the matches but I do remember the ones I liked. I was a fan of the Cap vs. Batman. The Superman vs. Hulk match wasn't bad. They never got around to doing Darkseid vs. Thanos..but I nominate Thanos as the winner.

Iron Man being left out sucked

[Fignuts]

don't really follow nova, so it didn't jump out to me. :-\

tbh nova kinda sucked for a long time. After Anihilation however, he has become one of the coolest characters in the MU. And he got a massive power up from it too. Could definitely fight evenly with hal jordan.

[Fignuts]

Also wtf mitch, if you havn't read annihilation yet, get off your ass. I actually enjoyed it more than civil war.

[LuigiD]

The first Annihilation was an extremely under-appreciated book. I think it slipped past most people since Civil War was going on at the same time. The What If stories of Annihilation were also excellent.

[Vastardikai]

Rhas Al Ghul vs. Mandarin

or if you want to be amusing:

Mogo vs. Galactus

[mitchables]

got other ideas for galactus but ra's vs. mandarin is a good call.

[LuigiD]

I think Galactus would be more interesting against the Anti-Monitor perhaps?

[Lock Jaw]

Mogo vs. Ego The Living Planet

http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-ego.jpg

Ego has that evil beard going for him.

[mitchables]

I think Galactus would be more interesting against the Anti-Monitor perhaps?

ding ding ding ding ding

[Vastardikai]

I was thinking more along the lines of Galactus trying to eat a Planet that could fight back against him (and with devastating results.)

But Mogo vs. Ego seems awesome, as well.