the great comic book clash, issue 5: sanity is such a subjective thing

[mitchables]

alllllllllright, our big brained weirdos battled it out and marvel strikes up another victory as modok wipes the floor with hector hammond 15-5, making them 3-0 against dc characters, losing only so far to image's spawn.

but here it is folks, issue 5 of the competition that rejuvenated the mtvb forum: the great comic book clash! i promised you big this round and big you shall get. two of the biggest, in fact. these two cause more problems for their respective heroes than most rogues put together. one needs only a cheap can of gasoline and some matches to do his damage, the other has all the wealth in the world at his disposal. but they are both batshit insane.

round five: the joker (dc) vs the green goblin (norman osborn; marvel)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f9/Manwholaughs.jpg/250px-Manwholaughs.jpg vs http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/66/Green_goblin2.jpg/250px-Green_goblin2.jpg

strike a pose, because this shit just got real.

<select><option selected="selected">clash rehash</option><option>issue 1: sandman def clayface (12-7) </option><option>issue 2: hawkeye def green arrow (9-7)</option><option>issue 3: spawn def ghost rider (15-10)</option><option>issue 4: modok def hector hammond (15-5)</option></select>

[Jeritron]

This is a great matchup to see where the line is drawn for different voting styles.

Joker mops the floor with Green Goblin if you're voting based on anything other than a straight up fight. Though that's technically an opinion, so I guess not...

[Jeritron]

Green Goblin is a bit underscored for being the default arch-villain to such a big superhero. He definitely doesn't have the iconic stature of Joker or Lex Luthor, or even Magneto and Dr. Doom.
I've always wondered why that is. He's Spiderman's arch-enemy for crying out loud. Spiderman is in that "holy trinity" or superheroes.
Maybe it's because he was toned down over the years, and in later generations more focus was placed on Venom and Carnage.
It seemed like in my childhood, Venom was Spiderman's Joker or Luthor. In that sense, the characters sort of split duties as Spiderman's archrival, and it's probably why neither is that undisputed rockstar arch-villain.

I would bet that if Green Goblin got the exposure Venom did down the line, or if Venom had the history that Green Goblin did, they'd be more comparable to The Joker.

[Jeritron]

http://starsmedia.ign.com/stars/image/article/936/936988/joker-dc-comics-20081209015106911-000.jpg

[Lock Jaw]

Joker no question. I'll maybe elaborate later when I have time.

[KIRA]

The Man who laughs gets my vote this was too easy Jokers a whole nother level of nuts that the Goblin cant begin to touch, plus Joker is the KING of Xanatos Gambit planning.

[Jeritron]

When it comes to my favorite comic book characters, Joker is right there at the top. I really like him just as much as Batman, really.
Batman, Spiderman and The Joker are probably my favorites. Not really "original" with that, but I don't care. They're who they are for that reason.
After them I have a second tier.

[LuigiD]

hmmm tough call..very close match as pointed out by Jeritron.
I like to think that Joker is an overall smarter villain. At the same time, Osborn is also a psychopath and his weapons are nothing to fuck around with it either.

[Jeritron]

I like to think Joker has the edge in an ongoing duel of wits, because of some of the moves he's made. Even though he's just as "unstable", he is less likely to act impulsively and make a mistake Osborn could make.

If you're going with a one on one brawl in a warehouse or something, you gotta take The Goblin, but the chances are it would get more complex than that.
Similar to Batman, I wouldn't want to give Joker time to re-group. Even if he can never gain the upperhand physically, he could orchestrate some mindfuck on a scale that puts him in full control.

[Kane Knight]

I loves me some Goblin, but Joker gets the nod. Like others have said, he'd come out on top in anything short of a straight up brawl. Goblin can be crafty, but more often than not, Joker's the craftier, even if he is sometimes written as a batshit cartoon.

[LuigiD]

I think I agree with your take on it.
Feud-wise, Joker would totally take it. One time deal..Green Goblin gets it. So I guess for me it would narrow down to if the Gobln can get the kill at the first encounter.

[Jeritron]

I don't think he would, though. Joker may not be the strongest or most courageous combatant, but he's slippery. He always has a knack for getting out of a tight spot when he knows he's in danger of getting fucked up.
Osborn tends to strike alone, wheras Joker would probably have some pawns to offer distraction while he throws them under the bus for his own escape.

[LuigiD]

So close to handing it to Joker really..but every time I remember the Goblin..I remember all the ass kicking he did in the Thunderbolts.

[Downunder]

I have no idea who did what in the poll so someone tell me which one is The Joker

[ClockShot]

Damnit, Miotch! You gotta make this hard don't ya.

Joker fell into a vat of chemicals and went lulu along the way. Loves to smile, got a thing for purple suits, and some of the weapons he uses reflect him (ninja star playing cards, laughing gas, super boxing glove, etc.). He put Barbara Gordon in a wheelchair, and the second Robin in the grave. Picked up crazy shrink named Dr. Harley Quinn along the way. Newer details are unknown since I've lost track. None the less, wether it's a movie, comic book, or cartoon, he's always good for a laugh.

Norm Osborn. Prick of a father, aspiring sydicate leader wannabe, millionaire. He failed at the second one, so he decided to inhale some super gas and become a super villian, the Green Goblin. Could have picked a fight with ANYBODY based in NYC, but there was something about Spider-Man. Used his wealth to get the tech(exploding pumpkins, bat glider, batarangs), killed Gwen Stacy and cheated death in the process, almost did the same to Mary Jane Parker, but failed. Who would have thought he'd go straight and join up with Stark after the Civil War?

Joker pulled off "extreme measures" with Barb Gordon and Jason Todd. And to this day is Batman's arch-foe.

9 times out of 10 Spider-Man stopped Goblin. Goblin has since gone straight, so no more big battles.

The edge goes to The Joker. The guy's right up there in terms of evil personified.

[The Destroyer]

Hmm, I might have given Osborn the edge if in his Iron Patriot/boss of HAMMER guise, but if we're talking purely as the Green Goblin, I'd probably give it to the Joker.

He's arguably crazier and more more of a psychotic killer (not that Osborn isn't one), which would probably be an advantage.

[Rammsteinmad]

Green Goblin. I've never really been too much into the Joker to be honest.

[Kane Knight]

I have no idea who did what in the poll so someone tell me which one is The Joker

I hope to God you're joking.

[Fignuts]

Very tough one to call.

As other people have stated, Joker is a lot smarter than he appears, and has staged some mastermind plots in his time. Osborn's plots have been much grander, and impressive, but they are all based on thinking five steps ahead of his opponent, and predicting their moves. Not something you can do with the Joker, since he is utterly unpredictable.

So I'm going with Joker.

Although if it's Iron Patriot Osborn, Stormin Norman takes it no contest.

[Inadequacy]

I would've voted Joker a year and a half ago but Dark Reign has solidified Norman Osborn as one of my favourite characters of all time.

The final three pages of Dark Avengers are amazing.

[LuigiD]

I would've voted Joker a year and a half ago but Dark Reign has solidified Norman Osborn as one of my favourite characters of all time.

The final three pages of Dark Avengers are amazing.

This is part of what has been holding me back from voting Joker.
Norman Osborn has become such a serious player in the Marvel Universe that it is not even funny. That plus the great display of ass kicking he has done all over Thunderbolts is really pulling me towards a tie.

[mitchables]

norman osborn has "become" a serious player. the joker started out that way, and is at the middle of something big in the bat-universe right now (if you haven't read batman and robin you probably won't be up to speed on that). i don't think norman 'suddenly' catching up in terms of ruthlessness automatically makes them even :-\

[Vastardikai]

I look at it like this: Joker has experience dealing with a Rich Psychopath who has a lot of gadgets.

Norman Osborn doesn't have experience dealing with Anarchists.

[mitchables]

not quite true. osborn has experience controlling anarchists.

[Downunder]

I went with whoever shot bat girl

[LuigiD]

norman osborn has "become" a serious player. the joker started out that way, and is at the middle of something big in the bat-universe right now (if you haven't read batman and robin you probably won't be up to speed on that). i don't think norman 'suddenly' catching up in terms of ruthlessness automatically makes them even :-\

Mitch, I am basing my opinion based for this poll based on who would win in a fight. Like you said, if we are going to consider legacy, popularity, etc I would instantly give it to the Joker. He is a far more recognized villain at a global scale than the Green Goblin will ever be. I am basing my opinion on the attitude displayed by the characters in the books, the fighting skills they display, etc. Even though Joker has been a top player in DC, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think he has ever controlled the entire planet in DC like Norman has in the post Civil War marvel world.
He pretty much became a psychotic Nick Fury. Norman has demonstrated he has leadership skills and knows how to keep people in line as demonstrated in the Thunderbolts and Dark Avengers. I am just not willing to give the victory to the Joker so easily.

[BigDaddyCool]

Joker doesn't have pumpkin bombs.

[BigDaddyCool]

Ok, here is the real reasons I voted for Green Goblin:

1) Joker is getting a little over rated as of late.

2) Joker has no powers, Green Goblin has super strenght, a jet glider, and pumpkin bombs (in a fight, Gobby is blowing Joker up quick).

[mitchables]

well, the joker has never really had the opportunity to control a government organisation because that's not the kind of villain he is. he mightn't know how to control the planet, but he knows better than anyone else how to bring it tumbling to the ground. after no man's land he fucking hijacked a helicopter and diverted to qurac, where he joined the government and took the country to war against neighbouring sovereignties. in new york as qurac's ambassador, he then threatens to essentially nuke (or neutron or ion or positron or whatever bomb) the shit out of manhattan and almost cripples the united nations. boom.

okay, yeah, almost. but still. the joker got there. also, one time, in emperor joker, he steals mr. mxyzptlk's power and completely changes reality. i'd call remaking existence in your own twisted image pretty akin to controlling the planet. bonus points: he eats the populace of china. literally.

also, when luthor was president, he had the entire country declare war on the joker.

that says something for how dangerous this man is. i know osborn's been on 'most wanted' lists, but has his own country ever declared war on him?

also in salvation run joker was one of two leaders (the other obviously being luthor) of the divided villain factions stranded on salvation and basically would have gained control of that planet had the parademons not invaded so, that also sort of counts as controlling a planet.

i dunno, i guess, as much as you don't want to just hand it to the joker, you also can't discount him on the actual 'if they engaged in combat' side. not necessarily physical combat - his fighting capability varies too dramatically from writer to writer to fairly say if he can or can't fight; he might just get lucky sometimes because he's all over the shop - but just as swiftly as norman could assemble a cohesive power base, the joker will be planting explosives in its basement.

at the end of the day, people like the joker 'coz he's the joker. and he's the joker because he's the best at what he does.

[mitchables]

joker mightn't have pumpkin bombs, but he has fuckloads of new, improved joker venom and thousands of ways of administering it.

[mitchables]

I went with whoever shot bat girl

you have to know that was the joker. come on. batman villain... batgirl gets shot... when have you ever seen the joker do anything with spider-man?

2+2 nunder, come on son :(

[mitchables]

Green Goblin is a bit underscored for being the default arch-villain to such a big superhero. He definitely doesn't have the iconic stature of Joker or Lex Luthor, or even Magneto and Dr. Doom.
I've always wondered why that is. He's Spiderman's arch-enemy for crying out loud. Spiderman is in that "holy trinity" or superheroes.
Maybe it's because he was toned down over the years, and in later generations more focus was placed on Venom and Carnage.
It seemed like in my childhood, Venom was Spiderman's Joker or Luthor. In that sense, the characters sort of split duties as Spiderman's archrival, and it's probably why neither is that undisputed rockstar arch-villain.

I would bet that if Green Goblin got the exposure Venom did down the line, or if Venom had the history that Green Goblin did, they'd be more comparable to The Joker.

great. you do these now.

[BigDaddyCool]

FUCK YOU MITCH, GREEN GOBLIN.

[Kane Knight]

Ok, here is the real reasons I voted for Green Goblin:

1) Joker is getting a little over rated as of late.

2) Joker has no powers, Green Goblin has super strenght, a jet glider, and pumpkin bombs (in a fight, Gobby is blowing Joker up quick).

I agree with Joker being overrated. Every sociopath and their mother worships at the feet of the Joker. On the other hand, a lack of powers rarely seems to stop people in comic books, especially when their whole shtick is not playing in a straight up fight.

[BigDaddyCool]

Like Green Goblin is a model of sanity and fighting fair.

[mitchables]

i don't know why you think joker is overrated. he is consistently voted the best villain of all time for good reasons.

- paralysed batgirl
- killed government workers who tell him he couldn't patent fish
- killed jason todd
- killed sarah gordon
- killed alexander luthor, jr.
- immune to scarecrow's fear gas
-revealed as the domino killer, as well as masquerading as oberon sexton nice and close to damian and dick
- proven time and again he is virtually unkillable, despite having fallen into a vat of acid, been shot in the face, kneecap and other extremities multiple times, been on death row (and gotten out of it) twice, fought with and alongside nearly every insane supervillain in the dcu and he still weasels his way through somehow.

he would get it done.

[Kane Knight]

Like Green Goblin is a model of sanity and fighting fair.

Like Goblin is a man who opts for a straight up fight all the time.

Yeah....

[BigDaddyCool]

i don't know why you think joker is overrated. he is consistently voted the best villain of all time for good reasons.

- paralysed batgirl
- killed government workers who tell him he couldn't patent fish
- killed jason todd
- killed sarah gordon
- killed alexander luthor, jr.
- immune to scarecrow's fear gas
-revealed as the domino killer, as well as masquerading as oberon sexton nice and close to damian and dick
- proven time and again he is virtually unkillable, despite having fallen into a vat of acid, been shot in the face, kneecap and other extremities multiple times, been on death row (and gotten out of it) twice, fought with and alongside nearly every insane supervillain in the dcu and he still weasels his way through somehow.

he would get it done.

Yeah, but Goblin would pumpkin bomb him.

[BigDaddyCool]

I really feel like everyone is really selling Goblin short in this. Joker is great, and I understand why he is constantly rated amoung the top villians (if not the top villian) ever. But to me, Green Goblin has always come across as Joker quite literally on steriods, he is every bit as crazy and muderous as Joker, only with pumpkin bombs, a glider, superhuman strength, intellegence, speed, agility, a billion dollar corparation backing him.

[Kane Knight]

Only as long as you make shit up as you go. Which seems to be no issue for you.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yeah, well when I do it, I always win.

[LuigiD]

I think Mitch touched on an important point. How different writers portray the characters we are voting on. Look at Iron Man..he has gone head to head with Thanos, Thor, Dr. Doom, etc and even beat some of them by himself. At the same time..Iron Man has been beaten by a bunch of mediocre villains as well as others..that I just don't see it happening like Hakweye. Joker has always been a popular and charismatic character with everyone. He has way more stories focused towards him over the years than Norman has.

[KIRA]

Ok, here is the real reasons I voted for Green Goblin:

1) Joker is getting a little over rated as of late.

2) Joker has no powers, Green Goblin has super strength, a jet glider, and pumpkin bombs (in a fight, Gobby is blowing Joker up quick).

1.I can guarantee the joker may be injured but will live through it.

2. Batman has proven powers don't make much difference against the mind Joker is something that Goblins not hes Sanely insane hes arguably always off the deep end but with a sort of clarity that is downright frighting. Goblin is just plain nuts but the joker is in a league all his own.

[El Tigre]

This is a tough call: Joker has come across as the textbook violent sociopath, but Goblin has always seemed to be walking the line between a normal eccentric individual, and one of severe dementia. I voted for Goblin because between these two incidents I found the death of Gwen Stacy to be more memorable (at least for the first time around).

[Miotch]

Joker by a land slide.