So Fedor just lost

[Brujesino]

Whos sad?Whos laughing and saying see i told you?

personally iam sad he finally has his first legit loss.

30-2 still the greatest fighter of all time.

[Mr. JL]

Honestly, I am pretty happy that he was defeated.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

His stock dropped a bit, so he won't be worth as much to the UFC now. Not saying it's a huge hit by any means, but he's no longer "unstoppable."

[Nark Order]

lol Fedor

[Nark Order]

lol. Love how all of the Sherdog guys went apeshit on Florian when he said that Werdum had a better ground game and that Fedor should avoid going to the ground. Florian was about as right as one can get, it seems.

[IC Champion]

lol. Love how all of the Sherdog guys went apeshit on Florian when he said that Werdum had a better ground game and that Fedor should avoid going to the ground. Florian was about as right as one can get, it seems.

Florian is smart, and was right. He played into Werdum's hand.

[Impact!]

Fedor just fought very stupid. He seemed pretty pissed off though...I get the feeling that his next opponent might be in a bit of trouble.

[Funky Fly]

Honestly, I am pretty happy that he was defeated.

His stock dropped a bit, so he won't be worth as much to the UFC now. Not saying it's a huge hit by any means, but he's no longer "unstoppable."
I too am happy because hopefully it means an end to this M-1 copromotion bullshit. That shit is poison to MMA. Also, it's a HUGE drop in stock. Werdum is not really the best (or even close to it) at heavyweight. Werdum's a great grappler, but there's no doubt in my mind that if Fedor had gone to the UFC or manned up and fought Ovareem that he'd be 30-2 just like now.
lol. Love how all of the Sherdog guys went apeshit on Florian when he said that Werdum had a better ground game and that Fedor should avoid going to the ground. Florian was about as right as one can get, it seems.

Not just Florian, King Mo. King Mo must be from the future because he calls everything exactly how it happens.

[RP]

Sherdog must be retarded then. Dont give credit to Florian and King Mo for stating obvious stuff here. Fabricio Werdrum has World Class BJJ. World Champion BJJ, European champion BJJ. THe guy has the absolute best BJJ out of any Heavyweight fighter in the world. Fedor was just dumb enough to dip in his guard twice. It was a horrible mistake.

And Ovareem would get his shit pushed in by Fedor. Come on.

[Funky Fly]

Let's be real, man. Ovareem has K1 level striking and top level grappling. He may not be Werdum, but he'd have a standing guillotine with Fedor's name on it. And if not he'd have some visicious knees to introduce him to. Don't forget King Mo trained with Werdum. Plus, everyone shits on King Mo's opinion, but he is always right. Look it up.

[McLegend]

Newstead is crying somewhere right now.

[Savio]

HAHAHAHAHAHA, Finally this hela-overrated guy loses. All this guy does is fight padding.

[Stickman]

I'm glad because I bet this makes it easier for the UFC to sign him. He'll probably retire before going there though.

[Sixx]

HAHAHAHAHAHA, Finally this hela-overrated guy loses. All this guy does is fight padding.

His record proves he's not overrated. Don't get what you mean.

[Savio]

Fedor fights low ranked contenders.

[Reavant]

dude stop being a hater.... hes fought top level guys

[Sixx]

Fedor fights low ranked contenders.

Are you crazy?

Nogueira, Filipović, Arlovski just to name a few.

[IC Champion]

Let's be real, man. Ovareem has K1 level striking and top level grappling. He may not be Werdum, but he'd have a standing guillotine with Fedor's name on it. And if not he'd have some visicious knees to introduce him to. Don't forget King Mo trained with Werdum. Plus, everyone shits on King Mo's opinion, but he is always right. Look it up.

Overeem would get arm-barred or chocked out. People forget that Fedor has excellent hands, and went 5 rounds with somone like Cro Cop, a K-1 level striker. Fedor got caught in the triangle, of one of the best BJJ practicioners at any weight class. Anderson Silva got caught, as did GSP, and neither of there oppenants had a submission game close to Werdum's.

[IC Champion]

dude stop being a hater.... hes fought top level guys

People don't like to remember PrideFC, or just don't care because it's not UFC.

[Reavant]

Overeem would get arm-barred or chocked out. People forget that Fedor has excellent hands, and went 5 rounds with somone like Cro Cop, a K-1 level striker.

they didnt have five round fights in pride

[Krimzon7]

Fedor's loss equals Meh

[IC Champion]

they didnt have five round fights in pride

I'm sorry im just used to the 5 round championship fights, he went the entire 20 or 25 minutes, which ever it was.

[Jura]

I'm disappointed Fedor fell for it twice. He should have known not to do it again when he almost barely got out of the submission the first time. I would like to see them fight again in the future and I'm pretty sure Fedor would win.

I'm not sure anyone will ever retire with an undefeated record having fought good competition. Even the greatest fighters across different sports have a few losses but MMA especially confirms that just one mistake or one punch could cost you a fight easily.

[Reavant]

outside of sylvia, he fought everyone when they were at the top.

[IC Champion]

But he hasn't fought Brock, and Carwin and this generation of heavyweights, and all people care about is what you've done latley.

[Reavant]

exactly.... a year ago (maybe more) none of these guys in the ufc outside of lesnar would have been considered worthy of fighting fedor.

[IC Champion]

Exactly. Fedor ran the gambit in his prime, and now they want him to do it again, and if he doesn't he's ducking competetion and has never fought anyone. Even if you make the claim he's ducking competetion, saying he hasn't beaten anybody is just insane.

[IC Champion]

Fedor isn't even a true Heavyweight in today's MMA. Hell if he got on a diet and wasn't allergic to sit ups and trained a bit better he could probably make weight at 185, and 205 for sure.

[Savio]

No people are saying he is number 1 right now (or yesterday). But he is not fighting top level contenders and just padding his record. He is not even fighting the champ in his own organization.

Back when he was fighting crocop sure fine call him #1, but he is not #1 now or yesterday or the day before.

[IC Champion]

That's still debatable, considering the two ranked behind him haven't beaten much in the way of top condtenders. Sure there is Mir, but before beating a sick Noguria and his "lucky" win over Brock pretty much everyone has written Mir off as a top contendor.

[IC Champion]

Oh, and after 116, Fedor wont be ranked #1 anymore.

[Savio]

Yes but they are beating top names now.

[IC Champion]

The only top name either of them have beat is Frank Mir. And Carwin beat Gonzaga, but he isn't a top 10 HW.

[Funky Fly]

But he hasn't fought Brock, and Carwin and this generation of heavyweights, and all people care about is what you've done latley.
If you're gonna demand half of a company's profits, you'd damn well better be fighting the best guys. Running from Ovareem was bullshit and it IS ducking competition. And frankly, you can't call yourself the best when there are a fuckload of guys standing in line to take you on and you go fight the guy at the back of said line. And of course people only care about what you've done lately. This isn't pro wrestling, you don't just get given titles on name power.

Even if he's old, he should still strive to fight the best. I'm not saying he should Chuck Liddell himself, but he could take after Randy Couture a little.

Exactly. Fedor ran the gambit in his prime, and now they want him to do it again, and if he doesn't he's ducking competetion and has never fought anyone. Even if you make the claim he's ducking competetion, saying he hasn't beaten anybody is just insane.

If he's not willing to fight guys on his level then he has no business fighting. The whole point is to fight better opponents and move up the ladder. MMA isn't about padding records to make a name for yourself. There's boxing for that. And no one except Savior thinks he hasn't fought anyone. He's just been avoiding doing it lately.

[Funky Fly]

The only top name either of them have beat is Frank Mir. And Carwin beat Gonzaga, but he isn't a top 10 HW.

Lesnar beat Couture for his belt. He is a top name, but age has caught up to him. Fedor's not quite there yet, so he should be making the most of it.

[IC Champion]

Yeah he beat Couture, but Couture was well past his prime, and shouldn't have been fighting at HW at that point, but did fair well until gettin dropped.

[Funky Fly]

Actually Lesnar had a pretty hard time with him. Fairly well is like saying the ocean is kinda wet.

[Savio]

I don't think he hasn't fought anyone of importance. I just don't think he has fought anyone of importance recently.

[Funky Fly]

That makes a lot more sense.

[IC Champion]

If you're gonna demand half of a company's profits, you'd damn well better be fighting the best guys. Running from Ovareem was bullshit and it IS ducking competition. And frankly, you can't call yourself the best when there are a fuckload of guys standing in line to take you on and you go fight the guy at the back of said line. And of course people only care about what you've done lately. This isn't pro wrestling, you don't just get given titles on name power.

Even if he's old, he should still strive to fight the best. I'm not saying he should Chuck Liddell himself, but he could take after Randy Couture a little.



If he's not willing to fight guys on his level then he has no business fighting. The whole point is to fight better opponents and move up the ladder. MMA isn't about padding records to make a name for yourself. There's boxing for that. And no one except Savior thinks he hasn't fought anyone. He's just been avoiding doing it lately.

He just fought Werdum, someone who will probably be ranked around #5 when the new rankings come out. Werdum was a worthy opponent. And to be fair, Overeem looks like he's juiced to the max. Granted he passed a test. Fedor hasn't gone on record saying he won't fight Overeem, atleast that I'm aware of. If Fedor would have won, then he was probably going to fight Overeem, as there would be no one else to fight. If he won, and didnt fight him than we can say for certain he was avoiding him.

[Reavant]

he fought arlovski when he was ranked no 2.

[Sixx]

I don't get the Fedor hate. I have a feeling you guys treat him like shit, cause he doesn't want to fight for UFC.

[Funky Fly]

I don't hate him. I don't like the way he does business and the way he ducked Ovareem.

[McLegend]

I don't think Fedor has fought any top guy since Cro Cop, and that was 2005.

[Reavant]

he fought arlovski when he was ranked no 2.

[Jura]

And that was only 2-3 fights ago.

[McLegend]

Andre Arlovski at number 2 is fraudulent.

[IC Champion]

He was just coming of being the UFC champion.

[Jordan]

I don't get the Fedor hate. I have a feeling you guys treat him like shit, cause he doesn't want to fight for UFC.

Thats exactly right.

[The Show Off]

Fedor is the best heavyweight of all time based on his skill, his poise and his record. However, on Saturday night he lost to Fabricio Werdum who he should have ran through. Fedor's loss is more of an example of his humanity than anything else. Finally, the cyborg that was able to walk through the treacherous landscape of MMA unscathed finally made a mistake and got tapped. It was crazy that he hung out in Werdum's guard in the first place and then after Werdum almost caught an arm it is unthinkable that such a great fighter would stay in as Wedum locked up the triangle. I was shocked, as was many other people that watched that fight.

If Werdum gives Fedor a rematch any thinking MMA fan would put their money on Fedor, it just makes sense.

Anyway their is a lot of hate going on with Fedor and their has been for a long long time. He was and should have been the Number 1 Heavyweight in the world for a long time until Saturday night.

The debate that used to go on was between PRIDE and UFC and which promotion was better. The only thing that was virtually undebateable was the PRIDE Heavyweights were better than the UFC Heavyweights, thus Fedor the top man in the PRIDE Heavyweight division was the top Heavyweight in the world.

The trouble happened when PRIDE folded and Fedor went out and fought. In the over three years since PRIDE is gone Fedor has fought six times against:

Matt Lindland
A blown up Middleweight that at the time was was considered on the top 10 Middleweights in the world. Since then Lindland has gone on to be not even a Top 20 middleweight.

Hong Man Choi
A freak show match that had really no baring on any Heavyweight rankings, and is totally useless for a Champion. Since then Choi has only one win against Jose Canseco.

Tim Sylvia
A solid Top 10 Heavyweight that despite a loss to Randy Couture ran through a fairly weak UFC Heavyweight division leading to this match. Since Sylvia has lost to Ray Mercer beaten 2 fighters worth nothing and has yet to weigh in under 300lbs for any of them.

Andre Arlovski
Heading into his match with Fedor, Andre Arlovski was the concensus number 2 heavyweight in the world and considered before the fight Fedor's biggest challenge since Cro Cop. Since then Arlovski has lost to an up and commer by the name of Antonio Silva and...

Brett Rogers
Leading up to this match Brett Rogers was barley a Top 10 heavyweight based on beating the very man Fedor had just crushed, only Brett did it faster... Since then Brett has lost to the man that most people wanted to see Fedor fight in Alistair Overeem.

Fabricio Werdum
A lower Top 10 heavyweight at the time of the Fedor fight. Since then...

Those are his last 6 opponents and they serve as a real rorschach test to you as a MMA fan.

In my opinion in his last 6 fights Fedor has 3 worthy opponents, and 3 unworthy opponents.

Compair that to the other 2 men that are concensus Top 3 pound for pound heavyweights...

GSP who in his last 6 fights he's fought 6 worthy opponents.

Anderson Silva who in his last 6 fights he's fought 3 worthy opponents.


Fedor's fights are okay with me. Just answer me who in the heavyweight division has fought better opponents in his last 6 fights?

[Savio]

Frank Mir, Lesnar

[IC Champion]

Frank Mir is roughly the equivalent of a Fabricio Werdum. That's Lesnars biggest win, and an old Randy Couture, who was getting the better of him.

But Nog beat Couture, and I wouldnt call that a win of substance, since he got smashed by Valesquez in his next fight.

[IC Champion]

And Werdum will more than likely be ranked higher than Mir when the new rankings come out.

[Savio]

because he beat the guy that was "ranked #1"

[Reavant]

Fabricio Werdum is probably has the best BJJ out there in MMA and is with out a doubt the best in the heavyweight division. He Just came off this year winning the open weight ADCC which is the most prestigious accomplishment for any grappler

[The Show Off]

Frank Mir, Lesnar

Are you saying that Mir and Lesnar fought better opponents in their last 6 fights than Fedor... Or are you refering to a different post.

[Funky Fly]

Fedor is the best heavyweight of all time based on his skill, his poise and his record. However, on Saturday night he lost to Fabricio Werdum who he should have ran through. Fedor's loss is more of an example of his humanity than anything else. Finally, the cyborg that was able to walk through the treacherous landscape of MMA unscathed finally made a mistake and got tapped. It was crazy that he hung out in Werdum's guard in the first place and then after Werdum almost caught an arm it is unthinkable that such a great fighter would stay in as Wedum locked up the triangle. I was shocked, as was many other people that watched that fight.

If Werdum gives Fedor a rematch any thinking MMA fan would put their money on Fedor, it just makes sense.

Anyway their is a lot of hate going on with Fedor and their has been for a long long time. He was and should have been the Number 1 Heavyweight in the world for a long time until Saturday night.

The debate that used to go on was between PRIDE and UFC and which promotion was better. The only thing that was virtually undebateable was the PRIDE Heavyweights were better than the UFC Heavyweights, thus Fedor the top man in the PRIDE Heavyweight division was the top Heavyweight in the world.

The trouble happened when PRIDE folded and Fedor went out and fought. In the over three years since PRIDE is gone Fedor has fought six times against:

Matt Lindland
A blown up Middleweight that at the time was was considered on the top 10 Middleweights in the world. Since then Lindland has gone on to be not even a Top 20 middleweight.

Hong Man Choi
A freak show match that had really no baring on any Heavyweight rankings, and is totally useless for a Champion. Since then Choi has only one win against Jose Canseco.

Tim Sylvia
A solid Top 10 Heavyweight that despite a loss to Randy Couture ran through a fairly weak UFC Heavyweight division leading to this match. Since Sylvia has lost to Ray Mercer beaten 2 fighters worth nothing and has yet to weigh in under 300lbs for any of them.

Andre Arlovski
Heading into his match with Fedor, Andre Arlovski was the concensus number 2 heavyweight in the world and considered before the fight Fedor's biggest challenge since Cro Cop. Since then Arlovski has lost to an up and commer by the name of Antonio Silva and...

Brett Rogers
Leading up to this match Brett Rogers was barley a Top 10 heavyweight based on beating the very man Fedor had just crushed, only Brett did it faster... Since then Brett has lost to the man that most people wanted to see Fedor fight in Alistair Overeem.

Fabricio Werdum
A lower Top 10 heavyweight at the time of the Fedor fight. Since then...

Those are his last 6 opponents and they serve as a real rorschach test to you as a MMA fan.

In my opinion in his last 6 fights Fedor has 3 worthy opponents, and 3 unworthy opponents.

Compair that to the other 2 men that are concensus Top 3 pound for pound heavyweights...

GSP who in his last 6 fights he's fought 6 worthy opponents.

Anderson Silva who in his last 6 fights he's fought 3 worthy opponents.


Fedor's fights are okay with me. Just answer me who in the heavyweight division has fought better opponents in his last 6 fights?
I get what you're saying but Lesnar is a little different. He was gifted a shot WAY early in his career on name power (and I don't deny that as being unfair, trust me). He beat the top guys in the UFC at the time (except for Big Nog) then got crazy sick and had a long layoff.

Anderson Silva has already run through his division and basically fights anybody because he's already beaten the top guys (Marquardt, Henderson, Maia to an extent, Franklin twice, Forest at LH).

GSP is getting into similar territory. Hopefully Koscheck won't be a dumbass and will actually train his wrestling for this shit.

Fedor was a free agent and had a ton of the top guys he could have faced in the UFC, but went where the money was better. FAIR ENOUGH. But now that he's in Strikeforce, he skipped out on his title shot to fight Werdum. THAT'S where I take issue. None of the other guys actively avoided better competition. They beat them already and only have the division's scraps left to go through. If Fedor doesn't fight Ovareem next, I'm writing him off completely.

[Jura]

Won't Overeem fight Werdum next? If so then Fedor will have to fight someone else unless he waits a few more months on top of the few months in between fights.

[IC Champion]

If Fedor doesn't fight Ovareem next, I'm writing him off completely.

That is just ridiculous.

[The Show Off]

I get what you're saying but Lesnar is a little different. He was gifted a shot WAY early in his career on name power (and I don't deny that as being unfair, trust me). He beat the top guys in the UFC at the time (except for Big Nog) then got crazy sick and had a long layoff.

Anderson Silva has already run through his division and basically fights anybody because he's already beaten the top guys (Marquardt, Henderson, Maia to an extent, Franklin twice, Forest at LH).

GSP is getting into similar territory. Hopefully Koscheck won't be a dumbass and will actually train his wrestling for this shit.

Fedor was a free agent and had a ton of the top guys he could have faced in the UFC, but went where the money was better. FAIR ENOUGH. But now that he's in Strikeforce, he skipped out on his title shot to fight Werdum. THAT'S where I take issue. None of the other guys actively avoided better competition. They beat them already and only have the division's scraps left to go through. If Fedor doesn't fight Ovareem next, I'm writing him off completely.

I totally get that point, I really do. I've never read anywhere that Fedor ducked Overeem but I might have just missed that (if anyone could send me a link it'd be appreciated) and if he did really duck Overeem that's bullshit.

With the exception of Overeem and Barnett (who he was schedualed to fight until Barnett screwed it up) Fedor has fought all the best fighters outside the UFC.

Do I want him to be in the UFC? Hell yes.

Does his reputation take a hit not being in the UFC? Of course.

Fedor is still a great fighter and I'd bet on him against any heavyweight in the world still. He's not unbeatable though. Most logical people knew that a long time ago, and now the rest figured it out on Saturday.

[IC Champion]

Fabricio Werdum is probably has the best BJJ out there in MMA and is with out a doubt the best in the heavyweight division. He Just came off this year winning the open weight ADCC which is the most prestigious accomplishment for any grappler

Exactly.

[The Show Off]

Won't Overeem fight Werdum next? If so then Fedor will have to fight someone else unless he waits a few more months on top of the few months in between fights.

What he said.

[The Show Off]

Fabricio Werdum is probably has the best BJJ out there in MMA and is with out a doubt the best in the heavyweight division. He Just came off this year winning the open weight ADCC which is the most prestigious accomplishment for any grappler

No doubt Werdum's BJJ is one of the best in the division... That being said if Wedum re-matched Fedor who would you put your money on?

[Funky Fly]

That is just ridiculous.

Strikeforce is fucked up. In any other company, he'd have to work his way back up (and considering it's Fedor, that would mean 1 fight probably), but I see Fedor getting the shot over Werdum. Let's not forget that this is the same company that gave Jake Shields a title shot when he only had 1 fight left on his deal because they were banking on Henderson. The same company that let Cung Le film movies all year and rarely defend his belt. The same company where Nick Diaz skips a drug test and still gets a title shot. They do retarded shit all the time.

And for the last time, I am not writing off Werdum. We all know he is a great BJJ practitioner, but MMA isn't pure grappling. Just ask Demian Maia. All I'm saying.

Fedor is a great fighter. That's why it bothers me so much that he's not going for the champ and working his way down. We know he's a machine, we know he's beaten past top contenders. That's why he should be fighting the champ first. He shouldn't have to work his way up, because he's already there. Bypassing the champ for the lower guys is ridiculous.

[Funky Fly]

No doubt Werdum's BJJ is one of the best in the division... That being said if Wedum re-matched Fedor who would you put your money on?

Tough call. You have to wonder if there's a possibility that Fedor believes his own hype. And if that's the case, how's he taking this loss?

Werdum's been training stand up with King Mo. If he keeps it up, you gotta wonder...

[The Show Off]

Fedor is a great fighter. That's why it bothers me so much that he's not going for the champ and working his way down. We know he's a machine, we know he's beaten past top contenders. That's why he should be fighting the champ first. He shouldn't have to work his way up, because he's already there. Bypassing the champ for the lower guys is ridiculous.

Actually, Jake Shields won the Middleweight championship against Jason Miller in his previous fight, Dan Henderson was a title defense.

[The Show Off]

Tough call. You have to wonder if there's a possibility that Fedor believes his own hype. And if that's the case, how's he taking this loss?

Werdum's been training stand up with King Mo. If he keeps it up, you gotta wonder...

King Mo isn't a striker though, he's primarily a wrestler.

[Reavant]

No doubt Werdum's BJJ is one of the best in the division... That being said if Wedum re-matched Fedor who would you put your money on?

fedor for sure, but my point is, getting caught in his guard is not a big deal. Yea fedor was able to punish nog there, but fabricio probably has a better guard than nog ever did.

Tough call. You have to wonder if there's a possibility that Fedor believes his own hype. And if that's the case, how's he taking this loss?

Werdum's been training stand up with King Mo. If he keeps it up, you gotta wonder...

king mo has shitty stand up. Hes a world class wrestler tho

[IC Champion]

fedor for sure, but my point is, getting caught in his guard is not a big deal. Yea fedor was able to punish nog there, but fabricio probably has a better guard than nog ever did.




Yeah, plus Fedor was in his prime, in much better shape, and Werdum looks stronger than nog was too. And like you said, probably has a better gaurd.

[Savio]

Are you saying that Mir and Lesnar fought better opponents in their last 6 fights than Fedor... Or are you refering to a different post.
For all of lesnars fights in the UFC he has fought people that were supposedly better than him. A lot of people thought putting lesnar against Herring was a bad idea, Herring was thought to be better. If Lesnar lost to herring he probably would have been gone.

If you are ranked #1 you should be striving to face #2....not #10

[Funky Fly]

For all of lesnars fights in the UFC he has fought people that were supposedly better than him. A lot of people thought putting lesnar against Herring was a bad idea, Herring was thought to be better. If Lesnar lost to herring he probably would have been gone.

If you are ranked #1 you should be striving to face #2....not #10

Yeah, this.

[Reavant]

Who thought Herring was better than lesnar?

[IC Champion]

Crack head who had just finished free-basing?

[Reavant]

and when you come in with a record of 1-0 every other guy in the organization is "supposedly better" than him

[IC Champion]

And I don't think Lesnar would have been cut if he lost someone who was supposed to beat him, considering it was his first UFC fight and second overall.

[Savio]

It was his 3rdWho thought Herring was better than lesnar?
Read the forums back then when people found out that it got switched from Coleman to Lesnar

[The Show Off]

For all of lesnars fights in the UFC he has fought people that were supposedly better than him. A lot of people thought putting lesnar against Herring was a bad idea, Herring was thought to be better. If Lesnar lost to herring he probably would have been gone.

If you are ranked #1 you should be striving to face #2....not #10

As for your first point...

After Herring got embarassed by an undersized heavyweight by the name of Jake O'Brien most MMA writers thought Lesnar would win and if he didn't win he had no place in the UFC. But most of them thought Herring was a tailor made can for Brock.

As for your second point...

When you are number 1 you should strive to fight number 2 I totally agree with that statement. However lets be fair up until Mir/Nogueira in December of 2008 Nogueira was Number 2 so he couldn't exactly fight the Number 2 guy at the time. He also tried to fight Couture during the whole time, and during that time he was ranked #3 behind Fedor and Nogueira. Also Fedor fought Arlovski when he was ranked number 2. Then he tried to fight Josh Barnett who was also highly ranked at the time (not #2 but Top 5).

Your point is valid now however since Fedor and Werdum are now the only two fighters outside the UFC that are Top 5 heavyweights.

[Funky Fly]

Ovareem may not be top 5, but god help the heavyweight division if when his contract is up he goes to the UFC.

[Reavant]

It was his 3rd
Read the forums back then when people found out that it got switched from Coleman to Lesnar

There were some knuckle heads saying coleman would beat lesnar....


so basically your saying thaty you were one of the people saying herring would beat lesnar because I remember it being fairly unanimous here that lesnar was going to push his shit in

[The Show Off]

Ovareem may not be top 5, but god help the heavyweight division if when his contract is up he goes to the UFC.

God help Overeem if the fight makes it to the second round and we have to see his gas tank.

[Nark Order]

Dunno. First round blood baths seem to be working quite well for Shane Carwin.

[Savio]

There were some knuckle heads saying coleman would beat lesnar....


so basically your saying thaty you were one of the people saying herring would beat lesnar because I remember it being fairly unanimous here that lesnar was going to push his shit inWell I remember it being 50/50 here including Rob who is pretty smart when it comes to MMA here thought herring would win.

I myself thought it could go either way. How could you be so sure? before that Brock had 2 fights. His first he could have just laid on the guy and beat. His 2nd he showed how he was green.

I am guessing Herring was ranked higher than Brock at the time as well.

[Funky Fly]

God help Overeem if the fight makes it to the second round and we have to see his gas tank.

Remember, he was the LH Cory Hill at the time. Just way too "skinny". He's 50 pounds bigger now. He still could have shitty cardio, but I'm betting it's better at least.

[IC Champion]

I don't know that he was really too "skinny" as he was too big for LW. He said the diet and and having to make weight was hurting his performances.

[The Show Off]

Perhaps my statment was more of a simplification on the idea that lots of muscle mass = bad cardio, which now that I think of it is incorrect,

[IC Champion]

Well generally muscle mass doesn't help your cardio, as those big muscle needs lots of oxygen to keep going.

[Reavant]

Well I remember it being 50/50 here including Rob who is pretty smart when it comes to MMA here thought herring would win.

I myself thought it could go either way. How could you be so sure? before that Brock had 2 fights. His first he could have just laid on the guy and beat. His 2nd he showed how he was green.

I am guessing Herring was ranked higher than Brock at the time as well.

NCAA Champion

[Reavant]

Perhaps my statment was more of a simplification on the idea that lots of muscle mass = bad cardio, which now that I think of it is incorrect,

shredded physique = cardio, not bulk

[IC Champion]

NCAA Champion

That, plus his size. If MMA has taught us anything it's the a world class wrestler can control where and how the fight takes place, even if they don't the skills to finish.

[Savio]

NCAA Champion
Fair enough NCAA champs have been decent atleast, but Heath was coming off a huge win over Congo who until that loss was set for a huge upswing in his career. So he was no jobber for Lesnar.

[Reavant]

The only reason that Komgo was on an upswing on his career was because there was noone in the heavyweight division. In fact the only good fight he had at the time was against CroCop the fight after he got KOed. So what was the upswing? He then went on to get beat via split by Herring. Herring beat him by taking him down, which was and is Kongo's biggest weakness.


Herring has never beat anyone good. Hes just tough and hard to finish. He may not have been intended to be a jobber but he was.


Lets not forget Brock is an NCAA champ at HEAVYWEIGHT! The class with the least amount of talent out there.

[Krimzon7]

God help Overeem if the fight makes it to the second round and we have to see his gas tank.

God Help Overeem if he has to piss in a cup.


:lol: Somebody had to say it

[Savio]

The time after he got KOed? the time after was the Herring fight.
Lets not forget Brock is an NCAA champ at HEAVYWEIGHT! The class with the least amount of talent out there.You brought up the NCAA

[Reavant]

Kongo fought and beat Crocop the fight after Crocop got KOed

[Reavant]

Anyone who seriously thought herring could beat lesnar doesnt understand wrestling at all. Yea everyone has heard that its the best base to have, but unless you were one to some degree or at least been exposed to it, you would never understand the advantage it would give someone in terms of body awareness, control of opponent, and cardio. Which makes sense that Rob would have the stance that Herring would win, because look where hes from. The UK has barely even seen a wrestling mat ever.

[Savio]

Herring still could have punched him out, if he rocked him in the first round Lesnar would have been off his game. Herring winning was not perceived as impossible far from it.

[Funky Fly]

God Help Overeem if he has to piss in a cup.


:lol: Somebody had to say it

He did, recently. God clearly helped him.

[Reavant]

Herring still could have punched him out, if he rocked him in the first round Lesnar would have been off his game. Herring winning was not perceived as impossible far from it.

Yea Serra beat GSP once upon a time too with a big punch... whats your point here? Are you seriously using the punchers chance argument as to argue that Herring was top competition for him. That can be said for any fighter in any divivsion no matter what level of fighter they are.

HOWEVER, watch the Kongo/Valazquez fight again and see what happens when a guy with great wrestling gets rocked.

Plus outside of a kick to nog's head and a punch before the match on Nakao when nakao kissed him before the bout, Herring has never shown much power behind his strikes.

[Savio]

I am not using the punchers chance with Herring but that would be his game with Lesnar. A game I thought and others thought he could possibly win because we haven't seen too much of Lesnar at the time.

But the fact is whatever, Fedor is no longer #1, which means he will have to work for it again.

[IC Champion]

I thought your point was that Brock fought and beat top competetion, and Fedor didn't.

[IC Champion]

Also I became a big fan of Valesquez after his fight with Congo.

[Savio]

I thought your point was that Brock fought and beat top competetion, and Fedor didn't.Nah my point was fedor was overrated.

[IC Champion]

You're case of him being overrated though is based on his lack of competetion, but then the man you claim to be number one, or who you say is better anyway, hasn't faced competetion any tougher really.

[Savio]

I'd rank him between 3-7. How is that not reasonable?

[IC Champion]

I'm not saying it isn't, however your reasoning why isn't logical. Before his fight with Werdum he was pretty much unquestionably #1. So Brock or Shane will be number one pretty much because they will be UFC champion,. not because they have beaten better oppenants than Fedor.

And since Fedor was the concensus number 1, that's how those things work, than technically Werdum should be number one the same way Edgar jumped up to one when he beat BJ, and his win was less convincing then Werdums.

[IC Champion]

Anyways, I think Cain Valesquez wil be number 1 in the next year. Hes a beast on the ground, endless cardio and improving striking which he used to knock Big Nog who has a legendary chin. He's much quicker than Lesnar or Carwin standing, and if either didn't finish him in the first 2 rounds, they might have trouble keeping up with him.

[Savio]

No I thought he was overrated when he had a tough time with Rogers who just started fighting 2 or 3 years before. If a ref who likes to cut things early was reffing that fight, Fedor probably would have lost.

[IC Champion]

I don't think Fedor was ever in any real trouble, he got caught by a big 280lb guy, and recovered well, and than broke his face in the next round. Some might call that heart, and determination.

[Savio]

I call it getting punched in the face

[Reavant]

No I thought he was overrated when he had a tough time with Rogers who just started fighting 2 or 3 years before. If a ref who likes to cut things early was reffing that fight, Fedor probably would have lost.

The good/bad thing about being a legend in the sport is that you never get your fight cut early if your in trouble

[IC Champion]

LOL, Overeems next fight is Ricco Rodriguez in Dream. And people wonder why they say Overeem didnt deserve to fight with Fedor. He hasn't beaten anyone at HW other than Brett Rodgers, who as someone pointed out earlier only has about 3 years experience. This wont help Overeems case. He could have fought Silva, and/or waited to see how the Fedor/Werdum situation plays out. Instead he took a match against someone who isnt even ranked.

[IC Champion]

I'm not saying Overeem shouldnt fight Fedor, I'm just saying he isn't helping his case any, and shouldn't call Fedor out on ducking top competetion cause there are bigger and better fights for Overeem.

[Savio]

Didnt he beat Crocop? Oh wait "no contest"

Overeem has the belt why not have Fedor face him?

[IC Champion]

Probably because before Overeems fight with Rogers, Werdum was the more crediable fighter in North America. Werdum had been in their with top fighters in the HW division, while Overeem has mainly feasted on cans such as Gary Goodridge and Ironhead Fujita.

[Reavant]

fedor was supposed to fight werdum in april. Thats why he didnt fight overeem

[Reavant]

BTW...


Alistair Overeem (33-11 MMA, 3-0 DREAM) will not fight Ricco Rodriguez (42-11 MMA, 0-0 DREAM) at DREAM.15 – and he may not fight in the promotion ever again, according to his representative.

Martin De Jong, who trains and co-manages the Strikeforce heavyweight champion, said his camp will talk to DREAM representatives at the end of this week to determine Overeem's future in the Japanese promotion.

"Right now, I can just say he's not going to fight Ricco, and he's not sure if he's going to fight in DREAM," De Jong today told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com).

MMAjunkie.com first reported Tuesday that verbal agreements were in place for the July 10 bout, which takes place at the Saitama Super Arena in Saitama, Japan. In fact, DREAM officials had distributed bout agreements and planned to announce the fight this week.

Rodriguez's agent, Ken Pavia, today said that he holds a signed contract for the bout. De Jong, though, said there's no such paperwork on his side.

"I didn't get any contract, and Alistair didn't agree, so it's not going to happen," he said.

The trainer said Overeem has no problem fighting Rodriguez and that the decision to skip the July 10 date stems from other issues with the promotion. However, he declined to divulge details.

It's unclear how Overeem can sidestep his contract if he chooses not to fight for the Japanese promotion. The heavyweight signed a multi-year, multi-fight agreement with DREAM in 2009 that drew the ire of stateside fans who said he neglected his duty to defend his Strikeforce belt.

Most recently, Overeem pulverized Brett Rogers in May at "Strikeforce St. Louis: Heavy Artillery" to defend his title for the first time in since winning it nearly three years ago.

Following Fabricio Werdum's upset of Fedor Emelianenko at this past Saturday's "Strikeforce and M-1 Global: Fedor vs. Werdum" event, Strikeforce CEO Scott Coker said Overeem could meet either Emelianenko or Werdum in his next stateside fight.

For the latest on DREAM.15, check out the MMA Rumors section of MMAjunkie.com.

[Reavant]

LOL, Overeems next fight is Ricco Rodriguez in Dream. And people wonder why they say Overeem didnt deserve to fight with Fedor. He hasn't beaten anyone at HW other than Brett Rodgers, who as someone pointed out earlier only has about 3 years experience. This wont help Overeems case. He could have fought Silva, and/or waited to see how the Fedor/Werdum situation plays out. Instead he took a match against someone who isnt even ranked.

umm... you realize that fighters make BANK in japan right? They bring him out there to beat the fuck out of dudes because the japanese love that and he gets a huge payday. Plus Ricco isnt that bad. At least he has credentials. They usually feed total scrubs to guys like ovareem

[IC Champion]

Shit, I was reading that shit was confirmed. Fucing rumors in MMA.

[Reavant]

K so the reason Fedor fought Werdum and not overeem is because Both of them fought on the live CBS show in november and both won. They were then slated to fight on the april 17th card that was again on cbs, but frdor or his management shit all over that, and they had already scheduled rogers/overeem and they wernt going to take werdum's shot at fedor away from him.

[IC Champion]

umm... you realize that fighters make BANK in japan right? They bring him out there to beat the fuck out of dudes because the japanese love that and he gets a huge payday. Plus Ricco isnt that bad. At least he has credentials. They usually feed total scrubs to guys like ovareem

I'm not saying they don't, I've heard they are paid very well there. But this is someone who is bashing Fedor for not fighting the best, and than fighting someone who isn't even a top 25. I'm just saying don't critisize Fedor for going to Strikeforce for the money, and say Fedor ducks Overeem, when Overeem isn't exactly fighting steller competetion himself.

[IC Champion]

fedor was supposed to fight werdum in april. Thats why he didnt fight overeem

We knew that. I was just saying to the average fight fan Werdum was more well known prior to Overeem destroying Rogers, which aside from the pre-arrangment, would make more sense in the first place.

[Reavant]

I'm not saying they don't, I've heard they are paid very well there. But this is someone who is bashing Fedor for not fighting the best, and than fighting someone who isn't even a top 25. I'm just saying don't critisize Fedor for going to Strikeforce for the money, and say Fedor ducks Overeem, when Overeem isn't exactly fighting steller competetion himself.

Who is overeem ducking by going to japan to fight ricco? He has contracts to fight in dream and strikeforce so he cant fight for ufc, and werdum just fought and overeem fought just a month ago, so its not like the time tables match up for them anyway. Theres no other top contenders for him to fight at this moment.

[IC Champion]

People weren't calling for Fedor to fight Overeem until they saw him destory Rogers.

[Reavant]

plus people criticizing fedor are saying he ducked the ufc to not fight those guys... not because he was going to get more money with strikeforce

[Reavant]

People weren't calling for Fedor to fight Overeem until they saw him destory Rogers.

No everyone was wondering why he didnt fight overeem to start with instead of rogers.

[IC Champion]

Who is overeem ducking by going to japan to fight ricco? He has contracts to fight in dream and strikeforce so he cant fight for ufc, and werdum just fought and overeem fought just a month ago, so its not like the time tables match up for them anyway. Theres no other top contenders for him to fight at this moment.

I'm not saying he's ducking anyone, I am saying that for someone who wants to fight the best he isn't going out of his way to try too. But is all irrelevant as it isn't even true. He could fight Antonio Silva who just won.

Since Overeem has moved to HW, who has he beaten?

[Reavant]

How do you want him to go out of his way? Sit out until Werdum is ready?

And antonio silva? Yea he won but hes fought ricco too, and only beat him by a split decision, so how is overeem fighting either of them a difference?

[IC Champion]

And Werdum was in a 69 second fight, he should be able to fight in the next 2 months or so.

Same for Fedor, I can't imagine either's turn around having to be that long.

[Reavant]

I have no problem with fighters taking fights against guys that will pad their record and fatten their wallets if they want to stay active and stay in a good groove for the top competition.

[IC Champion]

How do you want him to go out of his way? Sit out until Werdum is ready?

And antonio silva? Yea he won but hes fought ricco too, and only beat him by a split decision, so how is overeem fighting either of them a difference?

I don't think it is, but he's not fighting the best possible oppenant, sound familair? I'm not saying he shouldn't take the fight. But we don't even know what's up with either Fedor or Werdum yet. By the Fedors haters logic atleast Silva is a ranked HW.

[Reavant]

And Werdum was in a 69 second fight, he should be able to fight in the next 2 months or so.

Same for Fedor, I can't imagine either's turn around having to be that long.

Strikeforce has to be ready to put a card together.... something that they seem utterly inept at doing.

[IC Champion]

I have no problem with fighters taking fights against guys that will pad their record and fatten their wallets if they want to stay active and stay in a good groove for the top competition.

Those seem to be the only fights in which Overeems takes, when he isn't calling out Fedor. I don't know when Overeems contract is up, but I want to see him in the UFC as much as Fedor.

[IC Champion]

Strikeforce has to be ready to put a card together.... something that they seem utterly inept at doing.

You are more than corrent there my friend.

[Reavant]

Not to mention they were immediately talking about a fedor/werdum rematch right after the fight

[Reavant]

Those seem to be the only fights in which Overeems takes, when he isn't calling out Fedor. I don't know when Overeems contract is up, but I want to see him in the UFC as much as Fedor.

well to be fair thats because japan doesnt drug test...

[IC Champion]

Not to mention they were immediately talking about a fedor/werdum rematch right after the fight

Yeah, but if Coker had any balls he'd make Werdum fight Overeem and give Fedor the winner while we get to see Fedor/Silva or some bullshit.

[IC Champion]

well to be fair thats because japan doesnt drug test...

Japan doesn't do anything in terms of protecting their fighters. Do they even have a athletic commision over there yet?

[Reavant]

Im pretty sure fedors management will only be interested in werdum

[Reavant]

Japan doesn't do anything in terms of protecting their fighters. Do they even have a athletic commision over there yet?

not really

[IC Champion]

Japan is crazy.

[IC Champion]

Also, how fucked up is it when people win, they don't call out your champ, but a chubby little Russian.

[Reavant]

Well thats why its odd he didnt fight overeem right away, but he needed time to clean his system i guess

[IC Champion]

You think Overeem is juicing, cause I look at him in his pride days, and than now, and ask how could he not be? People dont just double in size at 28 years old, it just doesn't work that way. Not the way he got bigger.

[IC Champion]

He hasn't failed a test though, but I don't beleive they test for HGH do they?

[Reavant]

umm they can in a way but not directly i dont think. but its not as simple as a piss test.

[Reavant]

if they did an olympic test he might be fucked but who knows.

[IC Champion]

I think you can only catch HGH in a blood test.

[Reavant]

Yea maybe im not sure... you might only catch the other drugs that you have to take to balance the effects, like an elevated estrogen or something and it would beg the question as to why its there, so a lot of commissions ban the substances like that. Im sure ECG will come in here and clarify if he knows.

[IC Champion]

I know you can test for it somehow because the CFL is going to start testing for it soon.

[IC Champion]

LOL, a CFL reference. Doug Flutie had to play somewhere

[Reavant]

overeem vs rua is on spike right now.... if you want to see they greatness allistair is capable of, this is the fight to watch.... he of course gasses out in the first and loses tho

[IC Champion]

Yeah I just watched that the other day. I think Rua would have won anyway, the man has a ridiculous chin, and Overeem would have tired himself out punching eventually and got banged out or submitted probably.

[Reavant]

yea thats what happened

[IC Champion]

I was amazed at how Rua took his shots, not that he could take them, but how it almost didnt phase him.

[Jura]

Mayweather wanted Pacqiao to do a blood test and they were talking about HGH so you guys are probably in the right direction.

[Krimzon7]

"standard" drug tests check for traces of substances. Olympic testing checks testosterone levels in blood samples. You've gotta pee and bleed during Olympic testing. They run the full spectrum, checking for banned substances, but the extra part of checking testosterone levels are the tell tale sign of HGH uses. Now I'm not sure of the particulars, but regular people have a 4:1 level, anything over 8:1 indicates added, unnatural hormones in your system, and EPIC FAILS

[Funky Fly]

overeem vs rua is on spike right now.... if you want to see they greatness allistair is capable of, this is the fight to watch.... he of course gasses out in the first and loses tho

That's why I think Ovareem is better than his rank suggests. He has incredible skills, but at light heavy he was just cutting far too much weight. Like Cory Hill or Anthony Johnson. Dude made it to the semis in the K-1 tourny and would regularly be winning fights at LH up until he gassed. Now that he's bigger (closer to his natural body size), he shouldn't gas so much. Once he gets around to defending against Fedor (or Werdum) we should see some real fireworks.

[Reavant]

Yea thats a good point with the weight cut. Hes going to be scary at the Hwt division for the years to come.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

"standard" drug tests check for traces of substances. Olympic testing checks testosterone levels in blood samples. You've gotta pee and bleed during Olympic testing. They run the full spectrum, checking for banned substances, but the extra part of checking testosterone levels are the tell tale sign of HGH uses. Now I'm not sure of the particulars, but regular people have a 4:1 level, anything over 8:1 indicates added, unnatural hormones in your system, and EPIC FAILS

Testosterone levels are checked for anabolic steroid use, it is not a sign of HGH use. HGH is not a steroid hormone, it is a polypeptide. It is measured directly using antibody tests in plasma/serum.

I think to catch an athlete doping on it, repeated, unannounced tests must be done during training to record a persistently elevated level. Further, supposedly tests now can detect artificial HGH as opposed to endogenous. Medical testing for acromegaly or pituitary gland tumours also use co-testing with Insulin-like growth factor (IGF), since levels of this increase in response to HGH.

Anyway, if someone has gained an enormous amount of muscle in a short period of time, I'd be thinking steroid use. HGH seems unlikely, the evidence suggests HGH doesn't signficantly increase muscle bulk/strength. One of the key measures of bullshit in the fitness supplement industry is the wild claims surrounding HGH. As with many of these things, HGH injections almost certainly help people who are deficient, but in normal individuals it either does nothing or may cause problems. People with naturally elevated HGH (acromegaly) tend to have many health problems.

[Haze]

Frank Mir, Lesnar

Lesnar hasn't had 6 fights total...and fought Mir twice.

[IC Champion]

Testosterone levels are checked for anabolic steroid use, it is not a sign of HGH use. HGH is not a steroid hormone, it is a polypeptide. It is measured directly using antibody tests in plasma/serum.

I think to catch an athlete doping on it, repeated, unannounced tests must be done during training to record a persistently elevated level. Further, supposedly tests now can detect artificial HGH as opposed to endogenous. Medical testing for acromegaly or pituitary gland tumours also use co-testing with Insulin-like growth factor (IGF), since levels of this increase in response to HGH.

Anyway, if someone has gained an enormous amount of muscle in a short period of time, I'd be thinking steroid use. HGH seems unlikely, the evidence suggests HGH doesn't signficantly increase muscle bulk/strength. One of the key measures of bullshit in the fitness supplement industry is the wild claims surrounding HGH. As with many of these things, HGH injections almost certainly help people who are deficient, but in normal individuals it either does nothing or may cause problems. People with naturally elevated HGH (acromegaly) tend to have many health problems.

So it's used more to help recover and get over injuries faster than? That could be all I can think it would be used for if can be useless in normal individuals and it doens't help increase muscle.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Not as far as I can see. I believe it's used because athletes or body builders believe it will increase muscle mass and strength. Whether this actually happens has not been demonstrated in studies of healthy volunteers. Here is a relatively straightforward review from 2006 which is free access:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2657499/?tool=pubmed

[IC Champion]

So why exactly are this currupt doctors perscribing to to athletes, and why do they take it if studies show nothings happens?

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Well, why do you think? It's not difficult if you think about it.

[IC Champion]

Damn you ECG, it's canada day and Im half in the bag, help a brotha out.

[IC Champion]

I know it's supposed to make sex better.

[IC Champion]

I know that it helps you with weight loss as well.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

It costs a lot of money to use HGH. Doctors can point to the theory and athletes will pay for something if they believe it works. They aren't going to look up clinical studies to see if HGH has any real effect, they'll also believe something works if they've paid enough money for it. The exercise supplement industry is pretty much based on religious faith rather than any real scientific consideration on behalf of customers.

[IC Champion]

From what I'm reading it affects the appearence more than help with athletic ability.

[IC Champion]

It costs a lot of money to use HGH. Doctors can point to the theory and athletes will pay for something if they believe it works. They aren't going to look up clinical studies to see if HGH has any real effect, they'll also believe something works if they've paid enough money for it. The exercise supplement industry is pretty much based on religious faith rather than any real scientific consideration on behalf of customers.

So it's an expensive placebo basically?

[El Capitano Gatisto]

That is what the literature suggests in terms of its effects on athletic performance. What's not so clear is the long term health effects of abusing it since, as I mentioned, elevated HGH causes health problems.

[IC Champion]

So athletes are running the risk of failing a drug test for something that might not do anything other than give them health problems down the road?

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Of course. Some will do anything if they think it gives them an edge. Plenty of non-competitive athletes use anabolic steroids just to get bigger despite the list of health problems they cause. Those obviously do have a major effect on muscle growth, but people will spend large amounts of money and ignore the risks if they think they can make larger gains for their efforts or gain an advantage on the competition.

[IC Champion]

I believe it, I know people who take steriods just to get bigger and look better, nothing that can't be accompished with exercise.

This is quite interesting though. All the athletes who tarnished their images to take HGH, and it may not have any real benefits.