The chances of James Toney winning on Sat?

[Rollermacka]

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For some reason I never get tired of seeing that :yes:

Honestly, does anybody see James being able to get a straight knockout on Randy like Mercer did to Sylvia?

[Reavant]

50-50

[Jordan]

I am scared for Randy, I know he is one of the best EVER but a punch from Toney could take him out in a second. I'd say 50/50 as well.

[Funky Fly]

Sad thing is, Mercer got outstruck AND submitted by Kimbo Slice.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Why wouldn't Randy just wrestle him to the ground and lie on top of him? Fight over. If Randy tries to stand up he's going to get his face punched in pretty badly.

[Funky Fly]

Why wouldn't Randy just wrestle him to the ground and lie on top of him? Fight over. If Randy tries to stand up he's going to get his face punched in pretty badly.

Exactly. But the fight starts standing, so advantage Toney.

[The Mask]

yep. plus once randy gets on top he still has to finish the fight pretty fast, lay and pray might just get him killed too.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Toney is a good bit past his prime, Randy is still fighting in MMA at a high level. I think Randy should be ok if he just wrestles him to the floor. I doubt Toney has thrown many punches while lying on his back with some cunts hands in his face.

Alternatively Randy will just hug Toney onto the fence and break one of his arms for him.

[Nark Order]

Which begs the question "Has Toney been training punches from his back?"

Even if he has though, if Randy gets this fight to the ground, it's pretty much curtains.

[McLegend]

Toney shouldn't be in an MMA fight if he hasn't been trainning punches from his back.

Just shoot on the guy right way, and Toney will panic and Couture will probably submit him.

[RP]

good motherfucking lord have you guys seen Toney? He's as fat as me. Punching power means nothing in MMA. This guy could have a fucking anvil in his gloves and it wont matter. Randy will just take him down repeatedly. And if for whatever reason he cant get him down ( which there's no chance he doesnt take him down ), he'll press him up against the cage and destroy him in the clinch. James Toney has no chance at all. 0. Anyone who thinks that needs there fucking head checked. It's pretty fucking insulting that you even post that Mercier vs Sylvia video. Sylvia was fat, out of shape, no take down ability whatsoever and retarded to boot.

Come the fuck on. You guys are fucking nuts.

[RP]

yep. plus once randy gets on top he still has to finish the fight pretty fast, lay and pray might just get him killed too.

Really? Cause i'll straight up make a paypal bet right now that says James Toney gasses trying to punch Randy from his back.

[RP]

50-50

LOL what? Good lord.

[RP]

Exactly. But the fight starts standing, so advantage Toney.

Are you fucking serious right now? Is this a black man thing? I hope it is, cause you have no other reason to say this. Do you know what dirty boxing is? What. Do you think Randy is just gunna sit there and box Toney? Really?


You guys are insane. It's pretty clear that half of you dont know what the fuck you're talking about on this forum.

[RP]

I guarantee Toney will get his shit pressed up against the cage, get his jelly belly and double chin punched to living hell and be sucking wind 2 minutes into this fight.

[RP]

If Randy Couture comes out with his hands in the air waiting for punches, hell will freeze right the fuck over.

[weather vane]

I fucking hate James Toney. He is such a loser, every interview I want to see him die. He has a 2% chance of winning. What a yoke.

[Funky Fly]

Are you fucking serious right now? Is this a black man thing? I hope it is, cause you have no other reason to say this. Do you know what dirty boxing is? What. Do you think Randy is just gunna sit there and box Toney? Really?


You guys are insane. It's pretty clear that half of you dont know what the fuck you're talking about on this forum.

Not a black guy thing. I think outside of his ability to beat people to a pulp, he is one of the most useless people alive. Yeah, I know what dirty boxing is, but have you seen Toney fight? For a fat ass, he has a tendency to destroy people. If he can pass his drug test (the biggest challenge here), Randy had better pray to god it goes to the ground fast. If he takes a punch, even a glancing one, on the way in with 4 oz gloves HE WILL DIE.

[Impact!]

Just cause he's a great boxer doesn't mean he's just gonna walk in and knock Randy's chin off.

[The Naitch]

James Toney: the only freakshow is the one between my legs

[Funky Fly]

If he takes a punch, even a glancing one, on the way in with 4 oz gloves HE WILL DIE.

Just cause he's a great boxer doesn't mean he's just gonna walk in and knock Randy's chin off.

He's not gonna go in there and put on a boxing clinic. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying if he glances him with a shot, Randy will buckle for a second and Toney will run in and lay the hammer down.

Sincerely doubt that Randy is gonna stand up with him. If he did he'd get countered all over the place and KTFOd in no time. I doubt he'd even wanna risk clinching him. Toney could very well have powerful Carwinesque short punches, even in the disadvantaged position.

What I am saying tho, is that this shit is going to the ground unless Toney gets a shot or 2 in right away.

Never said Toney would win, only that he's got the immediate advantage.

[Reavant]

LOL what? Good lord.

dirty boxing is when randy gets a guy in a clinch and punches him.


listen, toney moved through five boxing divisions and held belts in all of them including heavyweight. while doing that he had huge one-hit KO wins and thats with the pillows on his hands.

Big Nog is supposed to have good hands right? Well he has OK hands, but we all saw what he did to randy on the feet.

[alvarado52]

Im with Reav on this one, plus...you gotta factor in that Toney had power when he was wearing, what, 12 ounce gloves? Imagine the power when he slaps on those UFC's.

It doesnt take an MMA analyst to know that Randy's chance at winning depend on how quick he can get it to the ground.

[Rollermacka]

good motherfucking lord have you guys seen Toney? He's as fat as me. Punching power means nothing in MMA. This guy could have a fucking anvil in his gloves and it wont matter. Randy will just take him down repeatedly. And if for whatever reason he cant get him down ( which there's no chance he doesnt take him down ), he'll press him up against the cage and destroy him in the clinch. James Toney has no chance at all. 0. Anyone who thinks that needs there fucking head checked. It's pretty fucking insulting that you even post that Mercier vs Sylvia video. Sylvia was fat, out of shape, no take down ability whatsoever and retarded to boot.

Come the fuck on. You guys are fucking nuts.

Wow, you seem alittle on edge. Like I said Tim Sylvia is not Randy Couture, and Toney isnt Mercer. You cant ignore the fact that Toney is still a champion level boxer, you dont become a champ without having powerful hands. Randy is still the favorite because it sounds like Toney is completely relying on his boxing skills.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Im with Reav on this one, plus...you gotta factor in that Toney had power when he was wearing, what, 12 ounce gloves? Imagine the power when he slaps on those UFC's.

It doesnt take an MMA analyst to know that Randy's chance at winning depend on how quick he can get it to the ground.

Pro boxing matches use 8 - 10 oz. gloves I think. There is padding there, but all that really does is help you hit harder. I doubt there's much difference between MMA gloves and boxing fight gloves really.

[The Show Off]

James Toney has about a 5% chance of winning this fight.

If James Toney comes out with a legit boxing stance he'll have to land the first shot or else that take down will be simple for Randy, he'll just topple right over.

If James Toney comes out in a wider lest conventional boxing stance he won't have nearly the same zip on his punches nor the same precision because he won't have the years of practice with that stance. He'll have a better chance of landing punches on Randy coming in but he'll still be taken down.

James Toney only has a punches chance... and not a very good punchers chance at that.

Toney isn't in the same shape that Couture is in and he's used to punching from his legs and hips which a lot of that is generated from wearing boxing shoes. Go and throw a punch while barefoot then throw a punch while wearing shoes... Their is a big difference in power and speed and even confidence in those punches.

One may think "that's kinda grasping a straws their" it might be but boxers are thoroughbreds that have to have things just right in order to be at their very best. And James Toney needs to be at his absolute best because he's going to get somewhere between 1 and 5 real shots at knocking Randy out before Randy puts him on the deck. Which means he has to be anywhere between 20% to 100% power punching accuracy. Even if Randy gets caught with a shot it has to be a knockout shot or else the fight is over.

If Randy gets clipped coming in but doesn't get knocked out he'll still complete the take down and has time to recover to work a fairly easy submission win.

Whoever said that Toney could knock Randy out from his back is insane, very few people have that sort of arm power and Toney is a born and bred boxer he learned a long time ago not to use his arms for power. All the power comes from his legs and hips both of which will be totally neutralized when he's on his back.

Randy wins this fight 95 times out of 100. The only way Toney stands a chance is if some how he comes in with some semelence of take down defense yet is still able to maintain power while trying to defend a takedown... To have both of those is is very hard for seasoned mixed martial artists let alone people who have never fought in a cage before.

[The Mask]

i don't think anyone said toney was gonna KO randy from his back. that's obviously not the kind of thing you can do with punches, at least against a high level mma fighter.

also as far as the gloves, even if the padding is similar, although mma gloves are 4oz i believe, the size means you can be a lot more precise in mma gloves and get through where you wouldn't be able to with boxing gloves, and all your power is focused in a more compact area on impact.

[Loose Cannon]

can't wait for Randy to make Toney tap and shut him up

[The Mask]

i would love randy to just get in an awesome ground position and punch him out rather than tap. humiliate him a bit more.

[McLegend]

I hate saying He has a punchers chance, becasue that's a huge cliche.

I'll give him a 15% chance.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

i don't think anyone said toney was gonna KO randy from his back. that's obviously not the kind of thing you can do with punches, at least against a high level mma fighter.

also as far as the gloves, even if the padding is similar, although mma gloves are 4oz i believe, the size means you can be a lot more precise in mma gloves and get through where you wouldn't be able to with boxing gloves, and all your power is focused in a more compact area on impact.

That's not what knocks people out. It's the snapping of the head. Focusing the impact would make cutting and superficial damage more likely, but it's thought that boxing gloves may actually make brain damage (which is essentially what a knock-out is, a brain-damaging impact) more likely (same with helmets in amateur boxing actually).

[McLegend]

Also I think boxing gloves are 12-16 ounces.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Also I think boxing gloves are 12-16 ounces.

No they aren't. Sparring gloves in boxing are 14-16 ounces. The one fight I've had, we were in there with 8 ounce gloves. I am guessing pro fighters may even go down to 6.

[The Mask]

yeah i know, i was more getting at it's probably easier to connect with uppercuts and shots to the chin in mma gloves, and shots to the temple where in boxing your opponents gloves are more likely to protect them.

i can believe that about boxing gloves and helmets though. every time i trained with helmets/shin guards in muay thai/mma i always felt like shit afterwards. the shin guards were the worst, without them i come away with a few tiny bruises, with them both my shins were just one massive big bruise from knee to ankle. i showed my mum for a laugh around the same time i broke my ribs and she has hated me doing any kind of martial art ever since.

[McLegend]

Now ECG I have a question for you. This might come off as a really dumb question though.

Say when a guy gets knocked out, but the ref doesn't stop it in time, and the guy on top gets like 2 good shots in before the match is stopped. Does the guy was knocked out feel those punches? Do the punches have any effect on him at all?

[The Mask]

No they aren't. Sparring gloves in boxing are 14-16 ounces. The one fight I've had, we were in there with 8 ounce gloves. I am guessing pro fighters may even go down to 6.

i think they stay 8-10, i remember hearing something about floyd mayweather wanting 10oz for the pacquiao fight were it to ever happen. and in the billy collins jr vs resto fight where resto had stuffing removed from the gloves they were meant to be 8oz but resto's were 6. but then he had his hands wrapped in plaster of paris too so i couldn't really speculate as to how much difference the removed stuffing made compared to the fists of rock.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

yeah i know, i was more getting at it's probably easier to connect with uppercuts and shots to the chin in mma gloves, and shots to the temple where in boxing your opponents gloves are more likely to protect them.

i can believe that about boxing gloves and helmets though. every time i trained with helmets/shin guards in muay thai/mma i always felt like shit afterwards. the shin guards were the worst, without them i come away with a few tiny bruises, with them both my shins were just one massive big bruise from knee to ankle. i showed my mum for a laugh around the same time i broke my ribs and she has hated me doing any kind of martial art ever since.

I think what it will come down to is whether Couture decides to keep the fight stood up. Why he would do that is beyond me. Also, in boxing if someone clinches Toney, he just has to wait for a break whereas Couture will be in his element, right where he wants him.

If it was a boxing match, Toney would pulverise him but they are different sports and I think everyone should just accept that and enjoy them as such. I do think MMA guys could learn a bit from doing some boxing training but I think there's very little that can apply going the other way. We've had some guys come in to our gym from MMA backgrounds who need their stances and punching form completely corrected to give them any punching power or defence. They tend not to do too well in sparring either.

As for the helmets and gloves, I was writing a paper on Alzheimer's Disease last year so I was looking up stuff about neurological injury and degeneration. Out of interest I read a lot of the stuff on boxing, and the evidence suggests that gloves and helmets reduce superficial injury but increase brain and eye damage. I think (don't quote) the BMA support a full ban of boxing but suggest bare knuckle would actually be safer when it comes to brain damage, mainly because of the reduced punching power (a skull is much tougher than a hand and hands break very easily) and reduced snapping motion from the lack of padding.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Now ECG I have a question for you. This might come off as a really dumb question though.

Say when a guy gets knocked out, but the ref doesn't stop it in time, and the guy on top gets like 2 good shots in before the match is stopped. Does the guy was knocked out feel those punches? Do the punches have any effect on him at all?

He won't feel it if he is out cold but obviously it will cause more damage. The punch by Henderson on a prone Bisping last year looked absolutely awful and that kind of thing doesn't do MMA any favours.

[The Mask]

I think what it will come down to is whether Couture decides to keep the fight stood up. Why he would do that is beyond me. Also, in boxing if someone clinches Toney, he just has to wait for a break whereas Couture will be in his element, right where he wants him.

If it was a boxing match, Toney would pulverise him but they are different sports and I think everyone should just accept that and enjoy them as such. I do think MMA guys could learn a bit from doing some boxing training but I think there's very little that can apply going the other way. We've had some guys come in to our gym from MMA backgrounds who need their stances and punching form completely corrected to give them any punching power or defence. They tend not to do too well in sparring either.

As for the helmets and gloves, I was writing a paper on Alzheimer's Disease last year so I was looking up stuff about neurological injury and degeneration. Out of interest I read a lot of the stuff on boxing, and the evidence suggests that gloves and helmets reduce superficial injury but increase brain and eye damage. I think (don't quote) the BMA support a full ban of boxing but suggest bare knuckle would actually be safer when it comes to brain damage, mainly because of the reduced punching power (a skull is much tougher than a hand and hands break very easily) and reduced snapping motion from the lack of padding.

i think i've seen a video where couture has said the fight is going straight to the ground, he's definitely not standing with toney. most mma fighters train in boxing too as far as i'm aware, but it's adapted for mma cause the boxing stance is rubbish when faced with shin kicks and takedowns. which means mma fighters can't really punch compared to boxers, but it stops them getting sat on for 3 rounds. if a boxer spent some serious time learning ground fighting and takedowns/takedown defense i think that would be interesting, and far more likely to be successful than an mma fighter going the other way.

heard that about bare knuckle boxing too. actually i read they don't even bother going for the head usually since it's too high risk.

[HeartBreakMan2k]

For the record, unless Randy knocks him out standing - James Toney is never, ever going to shut up. Remember, he's coming to our house since we're too "scared" to go to his.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

I think very good boxers tend to ditch the orthodox stance with experience and can rely on their own footwork and balance to maximise their movement and punching power. I try to watch a couple of the pro guys in our gym to pick stuff up but the two best guys fight almost square on, they're just ridiculously quick at shifting their weight and moving their feet, also their ability to swivel about their central axis to generate speed and power of punches is absurd. When I go in sparring with them, I have an enormous reach advantage so I can tag them a few times but they usually just circle around out of my jabbing range then dance in and chin me a few times before I even react.

Some of the stand-up stuff in UFC looks awkward and sluggish. Like Dos Santos vs. Nelson last time out, which was virtually all on the feet, looked pretty clumsy and Dos Santos' punches had very little weight behind them. This was two very big guys, but still, it didn't look good.

Shin and inside leg kicks look really fucking annoying, but if a really good boxer learned to read them in an opponent, they could so some serious damage with a murderous hook because the guard tends to come down when the kicks are thrown and the kicker is obviously off balance. There was a UFC fight recently where I saw this happening, will try to remember which.

[The Mask]

i think mma is still ironing out the creases a little bit. it's amazing how much it has come on, i was watching some royce gracie and cro cop fights yesterday and it's pretty amazing to look at how much different it is now compared to the mid 90s, and again since about 2005.

fighters with crap cardio are going to be weeded out in the next couple of years. all the ufc champions are ridiculously fit now, brock lesnar is insane for a 265lb+ guy, shogun has a resting heart rate so low you could probably mistake him for dead, and GSP is daft too. my only worry is the rules that allow mma to be sanctioned in north america favours wrestling way too much compared to pride or vale tudo rules and eventually there will just be 5 weight classes of champions who are the best at lying on their opponant for a long time. i really hope it doesn't evolve into that. as cool as it would be to see chael sonnen beat anderson silva i'd want him to lose the belt again right after. it's fun to watch a dominant champion get dicked the way silva was getting dicked, but it'd be another story watching anyone else at 185 against sonnen.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

I would probably allow a knee in the face takedown defence, I realise it's sort of a grey area right now in terms of kneeing a downed opponent. This will never happen. There was a thread on Rajah's new MMA forum about this and it was 50/50 in MMA fans, so it's unlikely to ever be sanctioned, but it would even up wrestling vs. striking a bit.

[Nark Order]

It would definitely make guys think a little more carefully about taking sloppy shots.

[The Mask]

yeah it was allowed in pride back in the day. looks gruesome, so i can see why they don't allow it, but going for a takedown is a far less risky proposition in the ufc. the whole you can't knee an opponent if he has a knee on the ground thing is a bit of a cop-out too, since i've seen guys just drop to one knee when in the clinch.

i suppose really though, if it does turn into that people will just stop watching and they will have to tweak the rules again to get fans back.

[AJ]

I agree that the rules as is favor wrestling a bit too much. Knees to a downed opponent would help tide this, but I doubt we'll ever see this. Those that are already hesitant about MMA already would go absolutely crazy if it ever was.

What I think has to be done is to change how fights are judged. Right now as it is, a takedown scores major points...even if nothing is done with the takedown. Meanwhile you'll have a guy who might of been taken down yet is more active than the fighter that is in his guard yet the takedown still viewed better in the judges' eyes.

As far as the James Toney vs. Randy Coture match, James' only chance is the knouckout. As soon as Randy gets into the clinch or takes it to the ground, it's match over.

[Hanso Amore]

I think there is a 40 percent chance Toney breaks a hand throwing a punch

[RP]

Randy doesnt have to take him straight down. He's incredible in the clinch and if he presses him against the cage, Randy will get busy. They wont break them up if Randy is throwing punches and controlling him against the cage. If they do, then the ref needs to go back to ref school.

Couture could just as easily press him against the cage for 3 minutes, wear him out completely then toss him to the ground and crucifix him. If he does that, he wont have to worry about punches being thrown from Toney, from his back. Toney wont have anything in those punches. He's coming into this like a fat piece of shit.

Someone at work tried to tell me that Toney always fought out of shape and KO'ed a ton of peeps. It's easy to KO someone when they arent throwing you against the cage and working you over or tossing you to the ground and pounding you.

[illmatic]

less than 2%

[Funky Fly]

Randy doesnt have to take him straight down. He's incredible in the clinch and if he presses him against the cage, Randy will get busy. They wont break them up if Randy is throwing punches and controlling him against the cage. If they do, then the ref needs to go back to ref school.

Couture could just as easily press him against the cage for 3 minutes, wear him out completely then toss him to the ground and crucifix him. If he does that, he wont have to worry about punches being thrown from Toney, from his back. Toney wont have anything in those punches. He's coming into this like a fat piece of shit.

Someone at work tried to tell me that Toney always fought out of shape and KO'ed a ton of peeps. It's easy to KO someone when they arent throwing you against the cage and working you over or tossing you to the ground and pounding you.

I have never seen anyone do damage with punches off the back. Don't think anyone said it was possible.

[The Mask]

is this fight at heavyweight? i had it in my mind that it was light heavy but i could be wrong. toney does look like a fat sack of crap in the videos i've seen of him recently.

[Funky Fly]

He's been a fat sack of crap since he became a boxing heavyweight. Have you seen what he used to look like?

[Rollermacka]

is this fight at heavyweight? i had it in my mind that it was light heavy but i could be wrong. toney does look like a fat sack of crap in the videos i've seen of him recently.

He's been a fat sack of crap since he became a boxing heavyweight. Have you seen what he used to look like?

From what I read they were both gonna meet at 215. I guess we'll see after the weigh in, but I agree Toney looks really overweight in the promos

[Jordan]

He's overweight maybe, maybe but Randy is bigger than him.

[Funky Fly]

I know. Toney started as a middleweight.

[AJ]

James Toney came in at 237 pounds while Randy came in at 220 pound fyi.

[Jura]

I read he used to box at around 175 lol

[AJ]

I read he used to box at around 175 lol

James has fought at a variety of weights including middleweight, super middleweight, cruiserweight, light heavyweight and heavy weight (I can't tell you off the top of my head what the corresponding weights are).

From what I've read, James is fighting 20 pounds heavier than his last heavyweight boxing match.

[Stickman]

If I turn gay Randy is number 1 on my list.

[Jordan]

That was great, so fucking great to watch that happen. AH MAN I LOVED IT!

[RP]

lulz

[Impact!]

:lol:

[AJ]

Got to love a ground defense that allows an opponent to go for TWO separate triangle arm chokes in less than two minutes! :lol:

[Stickman]

So are any boxing forums exploding talking about how the ref should have stood up the fight?

[Jordan]

They still have boxing forums?

[Funky Fly]

They still have wrestling forums?

[El Capitano Gatisto]

That was fucking stupid. James Toney didn't even bother training for that in any way. Easy way to earn another big pay-cheque for him, plus a load of twats get to rub their boners over this boxing vs. MMA shite so it also works out well for UFC and Dana White.

Randy Couture should have been somewhat embarrassed at being involved in that. It was pathetic.

[Impact!]

Actually he had been training for that (that being ground game) with some pretty top notch fighters/trainers. Only thing is Couture is/was/will always be to good for him (at MMA).

[El Capitano Gatisto]

I am sure he said he was training at it but he was out of shape and quite obviously had done very little work for that fight. It was a stupid, embarrassing spectacle for everyone.

[RP]

I am sure he said he was training at it but he was out of shape and quite obviously had done very little work for that fight. It was a stupid, embarrassing spectacle for everyone.

That quote can be attached to the last 5-7 years of his career. I'm shocked anyone was suprised by what they saw.