Through the Eyes of a Wrestler: How imporant are things like card status and title wins?

[Anybody Thrilla]

SCENARIO:

You're a young buck who decides you want to be an independent wrestler. You were bitten by the professional wrestling bug at a very young age, and guys like HBK, Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, and The Berserker are IDOLS in your eyes. You've decided to cast everything in your life aside to follow your dreams and become one of your heroes.

After some years of training, some great luck swings your way, and you get a try out with WWE. You are very impressive in your try out, and you get signed to a developmental contract. You light FCW on fire, and the entire internet attaches itself firmly to your nuts.

After some time in FCW, you finally get the call-up to job to Yoshi Tatsu on an episode of Superstars. Your dreams are finally starting to be realized! You're wrestling on television for the biggest wrestling company in the world! The internet collectively orgasms at the sight of you on TV, and the speculation about you starts running rampant. Armchair bookers everywhere start proposing foolproof scenarios to take you directly to the WWE championship, each scenario more brilliant than the last.

However...the WWE bookers have a different idea for you. You continue to make regular appearances on Superstars, and sometimes you even get called up to Smackdown for battle royals and a brief tag run with Tyler Reks. The internet is furious at your 'misuse', but you're getting steady paychecks, and you've made some pretty good friends backstage. There is no sign of you losing your job in the near future.

How does that make you feel? Are you depressed that you'll never become an icon like The Berserker? Or are you happy to just have a job at all, doing what you love to do?

In the eyes of the average wrestler, how much do you think he cares about being a main-eventer and winning a ton of titles?

[Tom Guycott]

So, what you just asked is "What if you were hypothetically Chavo/Christian?"

[Anybody Thrilla]

So, what you just asked is "What if you were hypothetically Chavo/Christian?"

Sure. I made the question bigger so the "tl;dr" types didn't have to sift through my amazing scenario of magic and wonder if they didn't want to. I started thinking about it from the MVP thread. There were some people who were assuming that MVP was just fed up with his card position or whatever, but I felt like the guy had a pretty good, consistent job.

None of us can really answer the question, but we can speculate.

[screech]

I'd be thrilled for the opportunity to do what I love on national TV, while getting paid to do it.

[The Jayman]

I'd be thrilled for the opportunity to do what I love on national TV, while getting paid to do it.

this. :y:

[chrisat928]

Getting the title means the company has faith in you.

Place on the card doesn't mean much, since that can change in an instant. Look at Evan Bourne. Lower mid-card, to main eventing RAW with John Cena, back down to mid-card.

[Mr. Pierre]

I'd be thrilled for the opportunity to do what I love on national TV, while getting paid to do it.

:y: If I'm happy, getting a paycheck, and it remains "fun", then I wouldn't care.

[thedamndest]

They're important because you're getting a consistent check. I would imagine being a jobber bothers you because you know you're never going to be making John Cena money, but you knew there was that risk getting into the business.

[St. Jimmy]

If you don't want to be World Champion you don't belong here.

[Tom Guycott]

It may not be as simple as getting a consistent check, however, I think it also may involve more than just being a belt mark or not. Hell, if I were in the business, I'd be happy to have a nice, lengthy career as the second coming of the Brooklyn Brawler.

Thing is, though, it might have a bit to do with what you're told to do, what people are putting in your ear that are plans for you, then derailing that and going in another direction. Since he's a hot-right-now discussion tool, (and by no means stating this is why, or the sole reason why he may have asked for his release) MVP kept getting pushes that were halted. They believed in him enough to warrant a push, then... oh, nevermind. It's kinda like being promoted on your job, only to "restructure" your positon after a couple of months so that not only are you theoretically back on the job you had before the promotion, but someone else has now gotten what you just had. That seems like a little more of a slap in the face than being a consistant jobber like, say, Chavo is now. Officials aren't in his ear telling him he's in line for this, this, and this, and then going off on another tangent mid-angle. A few times of that may be a bit frustrating.

[JimmyMess]

I'll take the words out of Kevin Nash's mouth.

"Back then the marks were in the crowd. now the marks are in the ring"

- If it were me, I'd be totally pumped making the best money of my life in WWE regardless of my status on the card. If they want to promote me, thats great, I mean it would be totally great to say "yeah they gave me the strap." but I wouldn't bank on it as a career once I was with the WWE. That is something you dream about before you've made it to the show. Once the reality sets in, your probably in your late 20's early 30's and just want to provide a life for a young family (hopefully). Owen Hart is a great example, he never gave a crap about trying for the WWF Title, he just wanted his family to be supported.

[Gertner]

Bobby Heenan said in his book that "if you think wrestlers are in it for anything but the money than you're clueless", although I'm positive ROH fans will claim that putting on good matches is more important.......which shows you how retarded those fans are.

[Calamondin]

Title = money, so of course I'd want THE title. I'd want to win the title once purely for the fact that it's the World Title and any wrestler who grew up watching wrestling wanted to win the title, but every time after would purely because I'd get the champion bonuses. I don't think wrestlers want to hog the spotlight for spotlights sake, I'd say it's more about the money that comes with it.

[whiteyford]

Bobby Heenan said in his book that "if you think wrestlers are in it for anything but the money than you're clueless", although I'm positive ROH fans will claim that putting on good matches is more important.......which shows you how retarded those fans are.

Titles and mainevent = bigger paydays. Alot of the guys who get cut talk about how theyre set for life pretty much and still get royalties for dvds/games etc. so in that regard i think even jobbing on superstars and house shows is still a good deal. But i think everyone still wants to get that push for the bigger payoffs, guys like Funk and Flair who still wrestle into their 60s are the exception, most wrestlers talk about wanting to retire in their 40s still able to walk.

[Nicky Fives]

A Title means that you aren't likely to lose your job for as long as you hold it..... Job security is a key thing nowadays.....

[JimmyMess]

A Title means that you aren't likely to lose your job for as long as you hold it..... Job security is a key thing nowadays.....

Tell that to Rob Van Dam.... lol granted he did get busted with pot...

[HeartBreakMan2k]

I'm sure there are guys who title wins, etc means something to them, and I think there are guys who could care less.

Lance Storm said if you care about title wins as a worker, you're a mark. I think it really comes down to the person and how they came up in the business...

Finlay seems pretty happy just working and training guys, Matt Hardy is a twat and a mark for himself so winning the title is probably something he puts a lot of stock in.

[Tazz Dan]

I guess it's like any job really, some are better than others and get results because of it. I mean HBPunk may one day want to be a McDonalds manager, and I'm sure with that dream and determination the possibilty is always there. His problem is the VSG's of the world who are just that little bit better and get those roles while poor old HBPunk is stuck to cleaning tables.

At the end of the day though they both have jobs, and while their role may not be what they ultimately want, they're bringing in a paycheck. And they do it because they love it.

[Ultra Mantis]

I'd say its 50/50, like any other job you will have guys who are happy just being there and others who want to get the promotion and be the top guy and will go elsewhere if they can't do it in their current company. I don't think it's necessarily about title belts, it's money, fame and recognition that are what they want and the being the world champion means you're more likely to get more of that.

You have guys like Carlito, Matt Hardy, MVP, I would even throw Chris Jericho's name in there, who feel they are good enough to be at the top and want to be recognised for it. If Jericho was happy putting on great matches in the lower midcard he would have never left WCW.

On the flipside you have Kane, Chavo Guerrero or Lance Storm who will do pretty much anything they are told to no matter how bad it makes them look just because they love wrestling.

[Fox]

I think it's safe to say that it depends entirely on a wrestler on how important those types of things are to them.

Myself, I would put a great amount of stock in card status and title wins, but that's simply because of the type of person that I am. I look at success as earning stripes and stockpiling accolades: constant evolution. Even if this just meant going from curtain jerking WrestleMania in the un-aired battle royal match to jobbing in the opener to Mark Henry at the next year's WM, any kind of upward movement would be my constant goal. I know that I would be ecstatic to come to the WWE and work in front of millions of fans, but I think that initial boost would only last so long. You can only be Hardcore Holly or Joey Mercury for so long before you want something more.

I think I would end up being like a Christian type: I'd live it up and love it in the WWE for as long as I could, but if the rug got pulled out from under me one too many times, I wouldn't be afraid to venture elsewhere to achieve World Champion/Main Event status before returning to the WWE. I could even see myself as a Frankie Kazarian type: someone who won't work anywhere that they find themselves unhappy. He spent all of two weeks in the WWE before quitting and going back to TNA, supposedly due to disagreeable working conditions in the WWE.

I would rather move about and chase the world title/main event and achieve minor success/fail than relegate myself to a Hardcore Holly/Val Venis/Al Snow kind of role.

[Jeritron]

It's definitely varied depending on who you are. Egos, professionalism, and just overall views of things play into it.
Some people want TV time and the belt for their ego, and others want it as an achievement.

It probably depends on which way you enter the business. Many workers were once fans. They love wrestling and have for most of their lives, so they attach meaning to certain things just like us.
There are workers who no matter how professional they are, recognize and "mark" for the accomplishment of wrestling at Wrestlemania, or winning a major title, etc.

A kayfabe "moment" can also double as a genuine career moment. I.E. winning a title, or a retirement speech.

But then of course you have others who just view it as a profession and are trying to navigate their career. Their motives are probably far less sentimental, if at all.
It could be more political or just a need to be on top of something.

For example, you will get the impression just from following the business/listening to interviews that a Chris Jericho, HHH, Edge etc. values wrestling for a title/at wrestlemania for some more personal reasons.
They likely consider it an honor to be in a match with Shawn Michaels or Ric Flair at a certain PPV, whereas a guy like Goldberg probably could care less and doesn't even realize what it means to some.
As long as it's an important match from a payoff standpoint.

And that's not to say that a guy like that is in the wrong, or that the others don't care about money/fame too.
I just think there's a definite difference between wrestlers who got into the business as their dream, and wrestlers who fell into after getting injured in sports/having a connection/being huge/etc.

[Jeritron]

But I also think one's security with their own achievements/legacy comes into play. Some may not measure success in card status or title wins. Others may aspire to those things, but not feel compelled to grip onto it.
They may be more content to just make a good living doing what they love once they've reached certain milestones, because they are comfortable with their own talents enough to know that they don't have to prove anything any more, either to themselves or others.

[Next Big Thing]

I think card status matters because with it comes more television time which means more exposure, more merchandise, more money, more perks in your contract, and more chances to fuck up or be a pain in the ass. Consistently being in the upper midcard or main event means more job security.

As far as holding the title goes, I don't think it matters in this era as much as it did to guys like Bret, Flair, etc. The belts aren't even held in as high esteem as they once were and have taken a back seat to other aspects of the storyline at times.

[bigslimjj]

Well Lesnar was at the very,very top and left to go do UFC. MVP got new music like they were gonna push him again...then two weeks later he's tagging with the new guy and getting his ass kicked by Kane for a totally different storyline. Matt Hardy left cause he wanted to be with his brother. I can bet that after Jeff left the way he did Matt caught a bunch of shit over it.He was only used to push Douche Mcintyre and kept jobbing out.Batista was huge in there,and left because HHH got a movie instead of him or something.Christian left because he wasn't getting the push he felt he deserved in WWE,then did it again when he left TNA to come back,only to be stuck in the same position he was in the entire time. I think it's different for all.

[Anybody Thrilla]

But what about Chavo Guerrero?

[blak23]

good thread

[Stickman]

It's all about the monayyyy.

Simple as that. They have a unique job that they enjoy and are given opportunities to travel the world and be B-list Celebrities. However, they do this soley for the money. It's not a job, it's a career.

[SaskatchewanChamp]

Every professional athlete will tell you this;

"Yeah, I love what I do, but in the end, it's all about the money!"

If you believe that they just do it for the love of the business, you are either high, or fucking retarded.

[Joe Kerr]

If you don't want to be World Champion you don't belong here.

Its not that they dont want to be. I mean come on who would say no if asked if they want to be world champion. Its wrestling not boxing. Wrestling you have no control over it you rely on sucking up to writers and really getting the crowd behind you/hate you depending on your character. If offered a job as a pro wrestler knowing that there is no plans to make you a world champion you wouldnt do it? Not everyone (as stated over and over this last month on RAW) can be champion no matter how great or iconic you get. There are however many other titles to get your hands on that would be just as great. The experience alone is well worth it.

[Emperor Smeat]

How a wrestlers saves or spends the money earned could also be a factor since if the person is wise with the money, they don't need to worry as much about winning titles or ensuring they are in the spotlight and can enjoy their job much better.

Titles and being in the spotlight helps a lot but if the wrestler is horrible at managing their money, then they don't get the opportunity to know when to retire or take a break since they don't have the savings to make it possible.

For example, Christian and Jericho are happy with their careers and know they can afford to take a break from wrestling (or move to TNA in Christian's case when his career was stalling). On the other hand, someone like Ric Flair who was horrible with his money has to work just to regain the money they lost and probably will mismanage again.

[Jakob Synn]

I mean yes and no, the main thing is for a wrestler to get over and connect with the audience, after that a title will ensue.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think Jeritron and those on his wave-link said it best. It's really a case-by-case scenario.

If you think of wrestling as acting, then you get a similar picture. Some people will act for free, because they just really enjoy performing. You have some guys on the independent scene like that. Believe it or not, there are some with day jobs that absolutely won't accept an offer from the WWE. They do it because they grew up loving the business and want to be a part of it on a certain level.

You have some actors that will essentially do the big blockbusters. These guys might not be the best actors out there, but they make a lot of money and are surrounded by a lot of special effects. You have guys like Goldberg, who perhaps did not deserve his position, but was a huge financial success for WCW. You wouldn't exactly submit Goldberg's name to the Hall of Fame, much like you wouldn't put Sam Worthington on an Oscar ballot. Likewise, Worthington isn't about to do a series of independent dramas, nor is Goldberg going to be curtain jerking in ROH anytime soon.

You also have your shades of grey. Carlito reportedly left the WWE because he didn't feel artistically challenged enough. That can probably be compared to an actor on a stable television show, well watched, making the most money he can in the medium -- but wanting to try something a bit more experimental. I get the feeling a similar thing may have happened with MVP. The guy had a steady job, won't exactly get paid more anywhere else -- but that doesn't mean it's exactly about title reigns or even card status. It might be about getting the freedom to structure a match as you want, or having the freedom in your promos to say what you want.

Then again, I think it would suck as when you have put in years and years into your work for a company, and then some guy comes along and is given the Intercontinental Title when you, yourself, have not been given that shot. Petty as it may be, I am sure there are some guys who feel that Sheamus has been given too much, for example.

[Stickman]

Then again, I think it would suck as when you have put in years and years into your work for a company, and then some guy comes along and is given the Intercontinental Title when you, yourself, have not been given that shot. Petty as it may be, I am sure there are some guys who feel that Sheamus has been given too much, for example.

I agree and disagree with this. I agree in the sense that it's like any other job. Some new guy comes in, gets a promotion and jumps over you pretty much sucks and would bother you. However, I disagree because this isn't any other job. If some new guy, ala Goldberg comes along and brings in the company boat loads of money everybody is happy. I think that's what the WWE is trying to do, they are pushing guys to the moon so early to see if they can be the next big thing. If Sheamus caught on like wild fire, everybody's pay checks are bigger.

[loopydate]

If it were me, I'd be totally pumped making the best money of my life in WWE regardless of my status on the card. If they want to promote me, thats great, I mean it would be totally great to say "yeah they gave me the strap." but I wouldn't bank on it as a career once I was with the WWE. That is something you dream about before you've made it to the show. Once the reality sets in, your probably in your late 20's early 30's and just want to provide a life for a young family (hopefully). Owen Hart is a great example, he never gave a crap about trying for the WWF Title, he just wanted his family to be supported.

WWE has been around for a very long time, and only 47 people have ever held either the WWE or World Title. One of those is the chairman. One of them was arguably the biggest wrestling draw in the world, and he held the belt for less than a day.

You're absolutely right. We already talk about the belts changing hands too much and being less prestigious than they were when we were young because too many people have held them now. But when you look back at WWE history and see that they have made less than one new world champion a year, you can see the strongest argument for "belts don't make the man."