Is it better to be a mark?

[Marc the Smark]

JOHN DALY: WOULDN'T IT BE SIMPLER TO BE A MARK
By: Various Writers
4/25/2004 12:20:00 PM

A couple weeks ago on NWA/TNA, there was a match between Jeff Jarrett and James Storm which turned into a brawl through the crowd. At one point, Jarrett was about to hit Storm with a chair. A female fan in the audience grabbed onto the chair to protect Storm. I don't believe this was a case of a fan who was planted. I don't believe this was the case of a fan who had a little too much to drink. What I believe I saw was a 100% legit "mark".

Now it's important for those of you reading to understand that I'm not being derogatory in my labeling of this fan. I actually think it's great. Part of me is honestly jealous. With the invention of the internet, and the overall disregard of kayfabe in the public eye, marks have become all but extinct. Now I'm sure most of us could argue all day over whether the internet has done more harm than good to the wrestling business. It's a complicated topic by itself, but regardless of your opinion, I ask one question... Wouldn't it be simpler to be a mark?

The term "ignorance is bliss" is a phrase that is usually used in a less that flattering context. However, in the case of wrestling fans, isn't it true? Think about it? Would any of us have enjoyed Hogan vs. Andre at Wrestlemania 3 nearly as much if we were consumed with concepts like "work-rate"? Would the formation of the original NWO ever had nearly the impact if fans were privy to, and cared about, contract negotiations?

There is a reason why many of us look back at wrestling from the old days so fondly. Was it really so good back then? Maybe, but there's another explanation... We believed. I believed that Hulk Hogan was seriously injured by King Kong Bundy prior to Wrestlemania 2. I believed that George Steele was in love with Elizabeth. Heck, I even believed Kamala was a cannibal (although I may have not known what that word meant at the time). It was a very simple concept? Wrestling promotions would deliver a product. We either enjoyed it or we didn't, but we judged the product on the merits of the product itself.

A lot of people would argue that it's up to wrestling promotions to "make us believe". This is a very good point. I think that all wrestling fans, deep down, have at least a little trace of "mark" left in them. Otherwise, they probably wouldn't still be interested in watching at all. But isn't that part of the problem? There really is only that "trace" left for many fans. "Smart" fans have become so passionate over the "behind the scenes" stories of wrestling, that I believe they've let the mark inside them become smaller and smaller.

Now I know my opinions may sound a little odd considering that you're reading this column on a wrestling news site. I admit that I'm a 'smart' fan. I have that unexplainable compulsion for that 'behind the scenes' wrestling news. Some people have referred to that phenomenon as the 'the sickness'. That's a very accurate term. We, as wrestling fans have become far removed from the same audience promotions catered to even just seven or eight years ago. I completely understand why guys like Vince McMahon have such negative feelings toward fans like us. We've made their job that much harder. At the same time, we're a loud and increasing demographic which can't be ignored. But once again, I'll go back to my original question? Would't it be simpler to be a mark?

In the old days, when a large monster-like wrestler walked to the ring and demolished a popular smaller wrestler, we recognized the larger man as a threat, and worry about the health of the smaller man. Now, we complain about "heat" been stolen. In the old days, when a 'good guy' came to the ring, we'd cheer. Now, we make snide remarks about how much of an a**hole the guy is backstage. In the old days, we didn't know or care about salaries, backstage demeanor, backstage politics, bookers, or buy-rates. Again, we cared about what we saw in front of our eyes.

Today, it's become harder for us to honestly judge the quality of a product by the product itself. Because of this, many of us have become less of fans and more of critics. The reality is that this will probably not change. In fact, it will probably get worse. Many of us may feel that we're closer to the product these days. I feel that we've drifted farther from it.

Now I'm not saying we should just suddenly 'dummy up' and forget that wrestling is fake. That's impossible. But ask yourselves a question? Why is it that we don't scrutinize other forms of entertainment this way? I'm a HUGE fan of the television show '24'. Yet I don't let actor salaries, network executives, and Hollywood gossip sour my thoughts on the program. I judge the product on what I see of it, one hour a week. Why can't we take that approach to wrestling? I think we can. I think we should.

So, the next time you're at a wrestling event and see an actual mark, think twice before making fun of them? They're most likely having a better time than you are.

(1wrestling.com)

I think this article is right on. What do you think? I wish "kayfabe" had never been broken, and when I'm watching wrestling I wish I were 10. It's not only that we're "smarter" now, most of us anyway, but now we also analyze more. And the more things we analyze, the less we can enjoy.

[KillerWolf]

good topic. rep for you

[Marc the Smark]

good topic. rep for you

Thanks. I'm trying :)

(But nobody's told me what "rep" means.)

[Kane Knight]

People are too quick to disassociate themselve from the word "mark."

I look at it from the other side. I'm not concerned about workrate because I'm a "smark," rather, I get called a "smark" because I'm concerned about workrate. I'm concerned about things like workrate because I like entertainment, and good workers are entertaining.

What's the fun in life if you just think everything is great? without identifying bad moments, where's there a point in aidentifying good?

[BasicThuganomics]

Yeah, there is nothing to replace the feeling of watching Wrestling as a kid and just being in complete awe of people like Hogan, Andre, Savage, and others. I wish that I could be like that again.

But in a way, knowing what I found out about Wrestling through the internet has in some ways made me appreciate the wrestlers themselves more than I ever could as a little kid. I respect them for the shit they go through backstage, the hard life they lead, the struggle it has taken to get to the WWE, and for how difficult it is to be a sports entertainer. I respect them because I know that even with all of the shit they've gone through, they are still busting their asses to entertain the fans, whether it is cynical smarks or gullable marks.

But I do have to agree with the article for the most part. It was pretty well written with alot of good points.

[Kane Knight]

Thanks. I'm trying :)

(But nobody's told me what "rep" means.)
The green bars to your left. They're under your name.

[Marc the Smark]

The green bars to your left. They're under your name.

Okay thanks. But then how come if somebody reps me I don't get more bars?

[PureHatred]

I don't really care about backstage news. But true "marks" are also notorious for just liking and disliking whoever it is the WWE is shoving down out throats this month. Marks rarely watch anything outside of the mainstream. Marks don't think for themselves. Marks like Goldberg...still.

So no, I'd rather be a fan that occassionally "marks out" whenever something happens like Benoit winning the title at WMXX or Renee Dupree is being Rene Dupree. But being a mark means that I'm not going to have any opinion outside of the one that the WWE is drilling into my head. It means I won't think for myself.

Thanks but no thanks. I'm perfectly happy having already taken the red pill.

[Marc the Smark]

In Bobby Heenan's shoot for RF Video, he said the beginning of kayfabe was the end of wrestling. He said smartening up the fans, instead of the tv producers and the workers, brought "the magic" to an end. That sort of relates to this article, I guess, so I thought I would pass it along.

[Kane Knight]

Okay thanks. But then how come if somebody reps me I don't get more bars?
Well, I think the next step from your current position (diamond in the rough--250+) is 500+. I doubt anyone has the rep power to give you a new bar in one or two reps. :D

[Marc the Smark]

Well, I think the next step from your current position (diamond in the rough--250+) is 500+. I doubt anyone has the rep power to give you a new bar in one or two reps. :D

Ahhh. Now I understand. Thanks for your help.

[BasicThuganomics]

Okay thanks. But then how come if somebody reps me I don't get more bars?


You don't get a bar every single time someone gives you a good rep. It takes time to build up.

[Kane Knight]

In Bobby Heenan's shoot for RF Video, he said the beginning of kayfabe was the end of wrestling. He said smartening up the fans, instead of the tv producers and the workers, brought "the magic" to an end. That sort of relates to this article, I guess, so I thought I would pass it along.
I don't totally disagree.

However, instead of embracing what's happened, the WWE and many wrestlers blame the fans they created. At the same time we bitch-slap fans for being smarks, we further destroy KAYFABE with Tuff eeeeenufffffffffff 56...

[BasicThuganomics]

In Bobby Heenan's shoot for RF Video, he said the beginning of kayfabe was the end of wrestling. He said smartening up the fans, instead of the tv producers and the workers, brought "the magic" to an end. That sort of relates to this article, I guess, so I thought I would pass it along.


Anything Bobby Heenan says is gold. Heenan is the ****ing man and there will never be a better manager/announcer than him. Lawler sucks so much compared to Heenan back in the day.

[KillerWolf]

:( i have to spread some rep around before..............................

but anyway, yeah...i do sometimes feel more like a critic than a fan nowadays. but its not what i know that makes me feel that way. its the fact that the product has gotten terribly stale. sometimes i want to see more of that bullshit, that i know is fake. it makes the show more interesting. when was the last time someone other than HHH beat the hell outta somebody with a chair.

i really dont give a shit about backstage politics. im just sick of the same shit all the time. the only problem i have with the politics is when it REALLY shines through on the show, like HHH being in every main event in the last 3 or 4 years. and RAW playing out like "the HHH show".

it just seems like there is so much missing nowadays. the characters, their entrance music, the plots, and even the matches; everything just seems so bland. btw the ppvs are really f-ing bland.

raw has been getting a little better for about a month or so. prior to that, they had shoved the same show down our throats for about two years. and you dont have to be a 'smart fan' to see that.

[PureHatred]

I don't totally disagree.

However, instead of embracing what's happened, the WWE and many wrestlers blame the fans they created. At the same time we bitch-slap fans for being smarks, we further destroy KAYFABE with Tuff eeeeenufffffffffff 56...

And Confidential. Remember its hard to hold on to kayfabe when you're showing us segments talking about contract disputes, commercial work, and showing us the workers at their homes. (although watching rey Misterio give us a Cribs like tour of his home in a mask was a funny attempt.)

[Kane Knight]

And Confidential. Remember its hard to hold on to kayfabe when you're showing us segments talking about contract disputes, commercial work, and showing us the workers at their homes. (although watching rey Misterio give us a Cribs like tour of his home in a mask was a funny attempt.)
Indeed. Don't blame us for destroying wrestling by being smarks when you keep shoving your own KAYFABE lapses down our throats...

[KillerWolf]

People are too quick to disassociate themselve from the word "mark."

I look at it from the other side. I'm not concerned about workrate because I'm a "smark," rather, I get called a "smark" because I'm concerned about workrate. I'm concerned about things like workrate because I like entertainment, and good workers are entertaining.

What's the fun in life if you just think everything is great? without identifying bad moments, where's there a point in aidentifying good?
even when i was a young fan it would irretate me to see guys like hogan show up after a year of not being on television and automatically get a title shot. they did that with steiner vs. HHH too. i think steiner's first match was on ppv for the world title.

[BasicThuganomics]

I don't really care about backstage news. But true "marks" are also notorious for just liking and disliking whoever it is the WWE is shoving down out throats this month. Marks rarely watch anything outside of the mainstream. Marks don't think for themselves. Marks like Goldberg...still.

So no, I'd rather be a fan that occassionally "marks out" whenever something happens like Benoit winning the title at WMXX or Renee Dupree is being Rene Dupree. But being a mark means that I'm not going to have any opinion outside of the one that the WWE is drilling into my head. It means I won't think for myself.

Thanks but no thanks. I'm perfectly happy having already taken the red pill.


The only people who think marks are ignorant are "internet smarts". The point of the article is that when you're watching wrestling as a mark or a smart, marks will enjoy the product more often than smarts will. If someone gets more enjoyment out of a spear by Goldberg than a Benoit/Angle match, then at least they are having a good time. There is nothing wrong with being a mark who enjoys the product they are watching.

[Kane Knight]

even when i was a young fan it would irretate me to see guys like hogan show up after a year of not being on television and automatically get a title shot. they did that with steiner vs. HHH too. i think steiner's first match was on ppv for the world title.
Yeah, it's massively annoying, and always has been.

[PureHatred]

The only people who think marks are ignorant are "internet smarts". The point of the article is that when you're watching wrestling as a mark or a smart, marks will enjoy the product more often than smarts will. If someone gets more enjoyment out of a spear by Goldberg than a Benoit/Angle match, then at least they are having a good time. There is nothing wrong with being a mark who enjoys the product they are watching.

Like I said, I'd rather be able to have my opinion and still enjoy the product I'm watching. As was said earlier, if you can't discern the good from the bad on your own, all that cheering seems kind of pointless.

It's easy to be the mainstream. It takes work to have your own opinion.

If you think its so great, you be a mark.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

The only people who think marks are ignorant are "internet smarts". The point of the article is that when you're watching wrestling as a mark or a smart, marks will enjoy the product more often than smarts will. If someone gets more enjoyment out of a spear by Goldberg than a Benoit/Angle match, then at least they are having a good time. There is nothing wrong with being a mark who enjoys the product they are watching.

Hey, more power to the marks... I won't say I'm jealous of the marks, because I enjoy knowing what I know. I prefer watching wrestling for quality, not storylines and people being shoved down my throat. However, anyone who watches it to get enjoyment out of the story, and people like Goldberg, more power to them, especially when Vince wants to cater to them for the most part.

[BasicThuganomics]

Like I said, I'd rather be able to have my opinion and still enjoy the product I'm watching. As was said earlier, if you can't discern the good from the bad on your own, all that cheering seems kind of pointless.

It's easy to be the mainstream. It takes work to have your own opinion.

If you think its so great, you be a mark.


The thing is that marks do have their own opinions, why else have rating and buyrates gone down so much the last couple of years. Because alot of people who were marks weren't enjoying the product WWE were putting out a couple of years ago.

And quit acting like you're better than people who are marks. I hate it when people over the net act like you. And what the hell do you mean by saying that I be a mark? Is there a way to either be a mark or be a smart? Should I go back in time to the day I decided to look up wrestling websites and read about what happens behind the scenes? Tell me how I should go about suddenly transforming myself into being a standard mark?

[Marc the Smark]

If you think its so great, you be a mark.

With the product they're putting out, it's not that easy :shifty:

[Marc the Smark]

And quit acting like you're better than people who are marks. I hate it when people over the net act like you. And what the hell do you mean by saying that I be a mark? Is there a way to either be a mark or be a smart? Should I go back in time to the day I decided to look up wrestling websites and read about what happens behind the scenes? Tell me how I should go about suddenly transforming myself into being a standard mark?

Beautiful.

The problem is, once we hit "smarkdom" we can never go back. Thats why I want to watch wrestling and just enjoy it - which I do, but I'd enjoy it more if I knew less. I can easily blame the internet, but it would be more accurate to blame myself. I enjoy knowing stuff, but it changes everything. It's not the same as it used to be. I want to suspend my disbelief as best I can, but it's not that easy.

[PureHatred]

The thing is that marks do have their own opinions, why else have rating and buyrates gone down so much the last couple of years. Because alot of people who were marks weren't enjoying the product WWE were putting out a couple of years ago.

And quit acting like you're better than people who are marks. I hate it when people over the net act like you. And what the hell do you mean by saying that I be a mark? Is there a way to either be a mark or be a smart? Should I go back in time to the day I decided to look up wrestling websites and read about what happens behind the scenes? Tell me how I should go about suddenly transforming myself into being a standard mark?

Marks don't really have their own opinion. They watch wrestling when it's cool. They watch when its mainstream. Marks were watching when nWo members were on MTV Springbreak and you could buy Rock T-Shirts at Macy's.

And what I said was just an expression. If you really think it's better to have that kind of attitude about wrestling, stop going to sites like this one. The point is, I disagree with the article and I don't have any clue as to why you're defending the average mark so much. Do you flip out when someone criticizes mainstream music or television, too?

[Kane Knight]

The thing is that marks do have their own opinions, why else have rating and buyrates gone down so much the last couple of years.
Answered by...

With the product they're putting out, it's not that easy :shifty:
There's only so long you can string people along with crap. I mean, when wrestling no longer is cool, all the followers will go off to reality shows or whatever else they're being told is cool this week.

[PureHatred]

Beautiful.

The problem is, once we hit "smarkdom" we can never go back. Thats why I want to watch wrestling and just enjoy it - which I do, but I'd enjoy it more if I knew less. I can easily blame the internet, but it would be more accurate to blame myself. I enjoy knowing stuff, but it changes everything. It's not the same as it used to be. I want to suspend my disbelief as best I can, but it's not that easy.

:roll: Stay way from wresling web sites for 3 months. See if it makes a difference. Like you said, the Net puts the information out there, but you don't have to look it up.

[Kane Knight]

Beautiful.

The problem is, once we hit "smarkdom" we can never go back. Thats why I want to watch wrestling and just enjoy it - which I do, but I'd enjoy it more if I knew less. I can easily blame the internet, but it would be more accurate to blame myself. I enjoy knowing stuff, but it changes everything. It's not the same as it used to be. I want to suspend my disbelief as best I can, but it's not that easy.
Personally, I haven't diminished my interest in wrestling because of "smarkdon."

I've felt a diminished interest because wrestling's sucked lately.

Come on, Wrestlemania XX was a night of overall letdown. WRESTLEMANIA! THE BIGGEST FU</>cking PPV OF THE YEAR! FOUR HOURS OF MATCHES! :wtf:

[Ricky]

Marks don't really have their own opinion. They watch wrestling when it's cool. They watch when its mainstream. Marks were watching when nWo members were on MTV Springbreak and you could buy Rock T-Shirts at Macy's. So you have never ever followed a popular trend and then stopped when it fades away? And if you have, does that mean you are a "mark" that can't come up with your own opinions?

[Kane Knight]

By the way, keep in mind when you talk about markdom, and defend marks by saying "Marks aren't stupid!!!!!" and "Marks have their own opinions..."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mark

21 entries found for mark.

(I'll keep it to the most applicable...)

A target: “A mounted officer would be a conspicuous mark” (Ambrose Bierce).

Slang. A person who is the intended victim of a swindler; a dupe.

Mark is carnie slang for someone simple, a victim to be "duped," as the dictionary says.

[Marc the Smark]

Answered by...


There's only so long you can string people along with crap. I mean, when wrestling no longer is cool, all the followers will go off to reality shows or whatever else they're being told is cool this week.

That's true, but they aren't real fans, and those kind of people bug the s</>hit out of me. Although, I'm also annoyed by the people who are self-professed "smarts." That label should only be reserved for those who work in the business.

[Kane Knight]

That's true, but they aren't real fans, and those kind of people bug the s</>hit out of me.
So what is a "real fan" then?

One of the most loyal fanbases has been the "internet" fans...You know, the "smarks?"

[PureHatred]

So you have never ever followed a popular trend and then stopped when it fades away? And if you have, does that mean you are a "mark" that can't come up with your own opinions?

Obviously, everyone has. And yes...it's a fad. It's fun to be part of the group. Hell, I buy new clothes every 6 or 7 months just so I don't look out of it when I go out.

But on stuff I consider important I form my own opinions.

The article basically says its more fun to be ignorant. Maybe thats true. And there are things that I watch with a certain amount of ignorance. Wrestling's not one of them.

That's it.

[BasicThuganomics]

Look, I know that wrestling was in the mainstream a few years ago and now it isn't. Wrestling was cool a few years ago because it was really, really good. People (marks) watched it because it was a good product.If Wrestling hadn't been good, then it would have been kool. What made wrestling not be mainstream anymore is that it started to suck, so marks stopped watching it. So obviously they have an opinion of some kind. and I'm not saying that being a mark is better than being a smart and that I wish I had never gone to the internet. In my earlier post I stated that I gained more respect for the business and the wrestlers by knowing what I know over the Internet. But if a mark is enjoying the product then good for them! Nothing wrong with a person enjoying themselves. I am defending them because I don't think there is anything wrong with being a mark. But obviously you seem to think there is something wrong with that, and I disagree.

[PureHatred]

Although, I'm also annoyed by the people who are self-professed "smarts." That label should only be reserved for those who work in the business.

Oh no! Flair got to this one, too!

[Kane Knight]

:wave: Not everyone has.

I wear what I want (And rarely update my wardrobe for any reason other than my clothes being worn out), watch what I want, listen to what I want (Even if it's poppier...Dropkick Murphys, Maroon 5, Linkin Park, even though I don't like their "genres..."). I don't follow fads or trends, I do what I wants...If I like something, it's because I like it, not because it's trendy to do so.

[Marc the Smark]

So what is a "real fan" then?

One of the most loyal fanbases has been the "internet" fans...You know, the "smarks?"

I'm kind of a "smark," I guess (though I'm very confused by all these labels), and I'm not suggesting "smarks" aren't "real" fans. I'm saying people who watching wrestling only once-in-a-while, the ones who leave when they're not entertained, the people who stop watching wrestling and go watch reality shows... those are the ones I'm referring to. "Real" fans watch wrestling whether it's "cool" or not. And just to clarify, I have no problem with "marks." In fact, on the contrary.

[Kane Knight]

Look, I know that wrestling was in the mainstream a few years ago and now it isn't. Wrestling was cool a few years ago because it was really, really good. People (marks) watched it because it was a good product.If Wrestling hadn't been good, then it would have been kool. What made wrestling not be mainstream anymore is that it started to suck, so marks stopped watching it. So obviously they have an opinion of some kind. and I'm not saying that being a mark is better than being a smart and that I wish I had never gone to the internet. In my earlier post I stated that I gained more respect for the business and the wrestlers by knowing what I know over the Internet. But if a mark is enjoying the product then good for them! Nothing wrong with a person enjoying themselves. I am defending them because I don't think there is anything wrong with being a mark. But obviously you seem to think there is something wrong with that, and I disagree.
So by your logic, Bopy Bands and reality TV are really really good, because they're kool and mainstream right now?

[BasicThuganomics]

Answered by...


There's only so long you can string people along with crap. I mean, when wrestling no longer is cool, all the followers will go off to reality shows or whatever else they're being told is cool this week.



I just don't think its a matter of being kool, its a matter of when WWE is putting out a good or bad product. Wrestling was kool when the product was much better than now.

[BasicThuganomics]

So by your logic, Bopy Bands and reality TV are really really good, because they're kool and mainstream right now?

Personally I don't like those things, but when they make as much money as they do they are doing something right. Even if it is a temporary thing.

I don't think comparing wrestling to these things is relevant by the way. Just my opinion.

[PureHatred]

I am defending them because I don't think there is anything wrong with being a mark. But obviously you seem to think there is something wrong with that, and I disagree.

I never said that I think there's somthing wrong with them. That's just not what I want to be. Maybe I was a little rough in explaining what i think a mark is. :-\

[Kane Knight]

I'm kind of a "smark," I guess (though I'm very confused by all these labels), and I'm not suggesting "smarks" aren't "real" fans. I'm saying people who watching wrestling only once-in-a-while, the ones who leave when they're not entertained, the people who stop watching wrestling and go watch reality shows... those are the ones I'm referring to. "Real" fans watch wrestling whether it's "cool" or not.
A real fan turns off bad wrestling.

I'm a real fan. When wrestling's good, I buy every PPV, I buy the videos, the books, and the merch. When there's not enough quality product for it to be worth it, I buy 2-3 PPVs a year, don't buy merch if there's no real personalities worth it, and overall don't bother with a substandard product.

Only an idiot dedicates so much to a bad product because they want to "support" wrestling. The only way to encourage good wrestling is to support the good stuff, and not the bad.

[Kane Knight]

Personally I don't like those things, but when they make as much money as they do they are doing something right. Even if it is a temporary thing.

I don't think comparing wrestling to these things is relevant by the way. Just my opinion.
When you use the argument "it was popular, so it must have been great!" For wrestling, you basically MAKE this comparison relavent.

[BasicThuganomics]

I never said that I think there's somthing wrong with them. That's just not what I want to be. Maybe I was a little rough in explaining what i think a mark is. :-\


Ok fair enough, I just misunderstood you a little bit.

[BasicThuganomics]

When you use the argument "it was popular, so it must have been great!" For wrestling, you basically MAKE this comparison relavent.

I didn't say that wrestling was great because it was popular. I said that the reason wrestling was popular a few years ago was because it was better back then. And IMO wrestling product was much better a few years ago.

[PureHatred]

I didn't say that wrestling was great because it was popular. I said that the reason wrestling was popular a few years ago was because it was better back then. And IMO wrestling product was much better a few years ago.

But, see, a lot of the people who watched it had no clue whether it was good or not. They didn't even really know what was going on. They just watched it because it was popular.

When it stopped being popular, they stopped watching. I'm sure there are plenty of fans who turned off their TVs because it wasn't good and the WWE permanently lost plenty of possible hardcore fans. But there are even more that were just watching because it was something to do.

[Marc the Smark]

I hope we're discussing, not arguing. I never meant to cause any problems.

[Marc the Smark]

A real fan turns off bad wrestling.

I'm a real fan. When wrestling's good, I buy every PPV, I buy the videos, the books, and the merch. When there's not enough quality product for it to be worth it, I buy 2-3 PPVs a year, don't buy merch if there's no real personalities worth it, and overall don't bother with a substandard product.

Only an idiot dedicates so much to a bad product because they want to "support" wrestling. The only way to encourage good wrestling is to support the good stuff, and not the bad.

How can a real fan be someone who "turns off bad wrestling?" That's like cheering for the Yankees just because they're popular, or cheering for the Red Sox but only when they win. I'm not trying to argue that you're not a "real" fan, just trying to understand what you mean. And no, I don't buy the merchandise just to support the show.

[BasicThuganomics]

But, see, a lot of the people who watched it had no clue whether it was good or not. They didn't even really know what was going on. They just watched it because it was popular.

When it stopped being popular, they stopped watching. I'm sure there are plenty of fans who turned off their TVs because it wasn't good and the WWE permanently lost plenty of possible hardcore fans. But there are even more that were just watching because it was something to do.


Ok, but if the product hadn't been good, would it have become popular in the first place? Whether or not people thought it was a kool thing to watch, they were entertained by it. People who tuned in because they heard it was kool would know if it was good or not. Don't make out people in general to be so stupid that they can't tell if something is good or not. Wrestling being popular and mainstream made some people tune in for the first time. But Wrestling being good made people tune in more than once for a while at least. Wrestling being bad made people not tune in anymore, and made it not be popular and mainstream.

[PureHatred]

It's called being a fan of quality. Or of wrestling in general and not just the WWE. If enough people are watcing TV or ordering the PPV or supporting the WWE product in anyway when they think it's utter crap (not just one or two storylines, but just a complete waste of time) then the WWE has no incentive to change.

Basically, as a consumer the only truly effective message you can send to the company is through your dollar. I stopped watching completely after the Ktie Vick fiasco, and only started up again after this past Royal Rumble. And that was because of the Benoit/Angle match. I didn't stop watching wrestling. I just spent my dollar somewhere else.

[Rock Bottom]

hello i must tell u that if ur a internet smark u really no nothing about wresling jim roas has said ppl on the internet have vavid imajinayshuns. he is ryt and if u dont b-lieve me hear is a example of alot of idiots trying 2 be smarx. mark all teh way111!!!!

http://www.tpww.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9773&page=1

[PureHatred]

Ok, but if the product hadn't been good, would it have become popular in the first place? Whether or not people thought it was a kool thing to watch, they were entertained by it. People who tuned in because they heard it was kool would know if it was good or not. Don't make out people in general to be so stupid that they can't tell if something is good or not. Wrestling being popular and mainstream made some people tune in for the first time. But Wrestling being good made people tune in more than once for a while at least. Wrestling being bad made people not tune in anymore, and made it not be popular and mainstream.

No...obviously it was good. That's why it started geting viewers. Let me be more clear: Tthe product improved and it started attracting more viewers. But when it was drawing huge numbers, it was a result of the mainstream fans. It's like the difference between being popular and being a full blown fad. I'm not saying that time period wasn't entertaining. I'm saying that the difference between Nitro and Raw getting 5's and 7's in the Nielsens is that group of people who were watching and just didn't know the difference.

You can't seriously tell me you idn't know anyone in that era who couldn't tell you who Rick Steamboat was but could recite Road Dogg's entire pre-match monologue.

[tucsonspeed6]

:roll: Stay way from wresling web sites for 3 months. See if it makes a difference. Like you said, the Net puts the information out there, but you don't have to look it up.

I did that shortly before I signed on to the forums here. The writers of the articles on the main page were so damn negative that it seemed that the WWE couldn't do anything right, and the honest truth is that the product was getting better. Since I was enjoying the programming and the guys at this site told me not to, I decided that I'd give up this site. The funny thing about it is that even after a few months away from this site, I'd still be watching and somebody would ask me "Hey, whatever happened to (insert missing wrestler's name here)" and I'd reply "They must have botched something and injured themself. I never became any more of a mark by cutting off my supply of information. I just didn't have the information whenever I wanted it.



Personally, I haven't diminished my interest in wrestling because of "smarkdon."

I've felt a diminished interest because wrestling's sucked lately.

Come on, Wrestlemania XX was a night of overall letdown. WRESTLEMANIA! THE BIGGEST FU</>cking PPV OF THE YEAR! FOUR HOURS OF MATCHES! :wtf:

Look at where the WWE was coming from. Some of the matches weren't bad at all. The WWE knew that the internet smarks would love to see Benoit win the title. His workrate is supreme and he doesn't have any backstage political issues. HHH and Shawn Michaels both have good workrates as well, but we all know that they're in big with Vince and were half expecting one of them to win that night even though news and rumors told us otherwise. A Mark would see the promos and would think "Shawn Michaels really needs to beat HHH because his entire life revolves around it right now. He's got the heart and the ability to win. The only way anyone else can win is by cheating." and of course the mark would be let down when the third wheel wins the title. On the other hand, the mark would have been waiting for ages to see the match between Lesner and Goldberg. The top of every mark's best potential matches of all time list would probably have either that match or Goldberg v. Austin. However, for every Smark out there, the mere idea of the match was total shit. The announcement of Goldberg v. Lesner.... average mark: " :eek: " me: " :| " You have to give the WWE a little credit there. On the issue of entertaining marks and smarks, they were caught between a rock and a hard place.

[PureHatred]

How can a real fan be someone who "turns off bad wrestling?" That's like cheering for the Yankees just because they're popular, or cheering for the Red Sox but only when they win.

Also, big difference. In sports, its real. The results aren't fixed, so you cheering on your team at a live game can actually help them win.

In the end, the WWE is a TV show with athletes. For example, no matter how hard you cheered last year, no one was beating Triple H. If they had booked HBK to win at Backlash, it wouldn't have made one difference what the Edmonton crowd did. So like any show, if you truly don't like it, top to bottom, turn it off. It's really the only effective response.

[Marc the Smark]

It's called being a fan of quality. Or of wrestling in general and not just the WWE. If enough people are watcing TV or ordering the PPV or supporting the WWE product in anyway when they think it's utter crap (not just one or two storylines, but just a complete waste of time) then the WWE has no incentive to change.

Basically, as a consumer the only truly effective message you can send to the company is through your dollar.

Ahhhh. This makes sense now, and I see what you mean. We can complain to each other about the product, but the WWE doesn't care. The only "effective response" to an angle we're not happy with is to stop watching the shows. But still, and correct me if I'm wrong, the WWE doesn't care about us. They're more concerned, for better or for worse, about those who don't use the internet. So if those people are still watching, then the WWE is happy.

[BasicThuganomics]

No...obviously it was good. That's why it started geting viewers. Let me be more clear: Tthe product improved and it started attracting more viewers. But when it was drawing huge numbers, it was a result of the mainstream fans. It's like the difference between being popular and being a full blown fad. I'm not saying that time period wasn't entertaining. I'm saying that the difference between Nitro and Raw getting 5's and 7's in the Nielsens is that group of people who were watching and just didn't know the difference.

You can't seriously tell me you idn't know anyone in that era who couldn't tell you who Rick Steamboat was but could recite Road Dogg's entire pre-match monologue.


:rofl: at the Ricky Steamboat and Road Dogg comparison. you get repped for that :lol:

But If people hadn't wathced Wrestling before and didn't know about people like Flair and Steamboat, it's not their fault. I mean people have to start from somewhere. Most people started watching during Attitude. If they had never watched before how would they know about Steamboat? It's not a bad thing that attitude was the first time alot of people had seen Wrestling. But if the product had stayed as good as it was back then, people who tuned in simply because wrestling was kool would have continued watching today.


I'm not sure if that makes sense? I'm just making up shit now...

[Marc the Smark]

Let me throw this out there for your reflection and response. I'm not saying you have to agree with it. Hell, I'm not even sure that I do, but give it some thought...

It would be easier to enjoy the product if we weren't smart to it.

[tucsonspeed6]

But If people hadn't wathced Wrestling before and didn't know about people like Flair and Steamboat, it's not their fault.

You got a good point there. To be a smark, you don't have to know any of the history. My girlfriend has only watched for the past year and thus didn't get the reference to the Bushwhackers that Eugene did on his Raw debut, but she has become a smark in such little time that it shocks me. She even catches some things quicker than I do.

[PureHatred]

To Basic, it makes perfect sense. If the WWE had maintained that Attitude quality they would've kept more fans than they lost. And if they hadn't botched the Invasion then they wouldn't have alienated all those WCW fans.

To RHS: maybe. But thats a personal choice.

[Marc the Smark]

To RHS: maybe. But thats a personal choice.

Very true, but staying away from the internet would also make us uneducated (like someone already said). It's like, "damned if you do, damned if you don't." That's the problem. It's nice to be "smart," and to know the backstage stuff (though most of us know very little), but that takes a lot of the fun out of it. Easy example... the Jeff Hardy rumors. If that's true and it happens, we won't be surprised, because we're on the net. The people who aren't will "mark out" if it happens, and will have a great time doing it. God Bless them.

Also, see what you think about this... I've been watching the WWF/E since 1984, and went to WrestleMania XX last month. It was a nice experience, and I'm glad I went, but it was kind of a disappointment (except for when Benoit won). It just wasn't that exciting.

Now, that might be because none of my friends were with me, and I had no one to share the experience with, or it might be because I'm not 10 anymore. Like Bobby Heenan said, "the magic is over." They've "taught" the audience how to do the tricks. And see to me, that's very sad. It's sad to see how much the business has changed; because even though I still like it alot, it's just not the same as it was when I was a kid. I'm sure a lot of you feel the same way. Imagine how the legends feel. You think these Hall of Famers that were at WM in the Garden didn't have mixed feelings about it? Please.

So anyway, to answer the question, I say "maybe." Maybe it's better to be a total mark, because I bet it's more fun that way.

[BasicThuganomics]

[QUOTE=PureHatred]To Basic, it makes perfect sense. If the WWE had maintained that Attitude quality they would've kept more fans than they lost. And if they hadn't botched the Invasion then they wouldn't have alienated all those WCW fans.
[=QUOTE]

NOt even the Invasion angle, having Taker and Kane in main events after WMX7 (the best PPV ever IMO) is what started the downfall too. It was almost an immediate thing after X7 that WWE started to suck. Invasion could have saved the WWE after Taker/Kane bored us all. But of course it was totally FUBAR.
And we don't even need to start on NWO reforming.... :nono:

[spd10000]

Come join in on this lively discussion. Help the Red Hot Snot reach 100 replies.

[Funky Fly]

Interesting topic.

[Marc the Smark]

Come join in on this lively discussion. Help the Red Hot Snot reach 100 replies.

:shifty:

[CosaNostra]

To get back to that level of "Markness", all I do is go back and watch some of the old Clash of The Champions, The Great American Bash, or before Wrestlmania 5. Those Rhodes/Flair and Freebird/Von Erich epics get me there every time.

To me. there is no reason why, at the same time, someone can't be a "Mark" and a "Smark"; to enjoy the product immensly, yet with enough cynicism to know whats what. You create your magic.

[Marc the Smark]

To get back to that level of "Markness", all I do is go back and watch some of the old Clash of The Champions, The Great American Bash, or before Wrestlmania 5. Those Rhodes/Flair and Freebird/Von Erich epics get me there every time.

The article also makes mention of the Hulk/Andre match at WM III. Sure, when we look back at it now, the workrate was poor, but (at the time) the match was just as intense as the Raw main event from WM XX. Remember the false ending? Remember when Hogan bodyslammed Andre? The Silverdome roof exploded!

Now, if that were 2004, and you put 94,000 smarks in there, you'd probably only get "boring" chants and "boos" like we wouldn't believe.

To me. there is no reason why, at the same time, someone can't be a "Mark" and a "Smark"; to enjoy the product immensly, yet with enough cynicism to know whats what. You create your magic.

Because it just isn't that easy.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

It would be easier to enjoy the product if we weren't smart to it.

That depends. At this point you're also getting into the "sports entertainment" arguement. If I were a mark, I'd probably enjoy certain storylines more... If I actually believed that Undertaker was a deadman, or HHH really was unstoppable, than maybe.

However, when you watch pro wrestling, or watch a match by itself ( like downloading a puroresu match or a RoH match, or buying tapes), I can sit down and watch some of those matches, and not only be totally into it, but I can mark out in parts of it. For me, being a mark or being a smark has little influence on my enjoyment of an actual match. It's when you bring in the entertainment aspect, and want to make a "product" as a whole where the smark issue starts to come in....

Seriously though, download a match like Misawa Vs Kawada ( either the hour long match, or the one with the ganso bomb spot) and see if being a mark or being a smark honestly affects how much you enjoy that match...

And to what was said earlier, I am a fan of wrestling, not just the WWE. If I stop watching WWE, that does not mean I am not a true wrestling fan... The fact that I turn off the bad and actively search for the good means I am a true wrestling fan, maybe more so than those who just sit and watch WWE no matter how bad they get.

[Kane Knight]

I didn't say that wrestling was great because it was popular. I said that the reason wrestling was popular a few years ago was because it was better back then. And IMO wrestling product was much better a few years ago.
It was better, but it was also trendy. Decrease in ratings and decrease in quality aren't totally tied in this case, because the wrestling fad wore off while the product was still pretty good.

[Kane Knight]

How can a real fan be someone who "turns off bad wrestling?" That's like cheering for the Yankees just because they're popular, or cheering for the Red Sox but only when they win. I'm not trying to argue that you're not a "real" fan, just trying to understand what you mean. And no, I don't buy the merchandise just to support the show.
Don't confuse popularity with quality.

Also, don't confuse sports with pro wrestling.

[Kane Knight]

Ahhhh. This makes sense now, and I see what you mean. We can complain to each other about the product, but the WWE doesn't care. The only "effective response" to an angle we're not happy with is to stop watching the shows. But still, and correct me if I'm wrong, the WWE doesn't care about us. They're more concerned, for better or for worse, about those who don't use the internet. So if those people are still watching, then the WWE is happy.
The fewer people that watch, the fewer sponsors they get, the less money they rake in.

If enough people give up, that says something. Notice how quick they dropped the Katie Vick angle, despite Vince thinking it to be brilliant?

They don't like us, but they do like money. And when it comes to cash, we're all the same color: Green.

[Marc the Smark]

The fewer people that watch, the fewer sponsors they get, the less money they rake in.

If enough people give up, that says something. Notice how quick they dropped the Katie Vick angle, despite Vince thinking it to be brilliant?

They don't like us, but they do like money. And when it comes to cash, we're all the same color: Green.

Gotcha. But how many fans are on the internet? Aren't we a minority?

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Gotcha. But how many fans are on the internet? Aren't we a minority?

I doubt it... Think back to WM 20. It seemed like everybody there knew about Brock and GOldberg leaving. The internet is a very common thing, and there's no reason to believe that wrestling fans don't look up wrestling on the internet.

[PureHatred]

Gotcha. But how many fans are on the internet? Aren't we a minority?

I'd say we're a growing minoriy. Eventually even casual viewers start checking out websites and they get addicted to the rumors and the community in general.

[Kane Knight]

Gotcha. But how many fans are on the internet? Aren't we a minority?
If we are such a minority:

Why does the WWE have wwe.com?

Why does it sell merchandise via WWE shopzone?

Why does it have PPV webcasts?

Why does the WWE blame the internet for killing wrestling? I mean, if the internet's singlehandedly caused their business to go from drawing buyrates of 8.X to the current standings, then it must logically be a formidable force. :D

[Vega]

I've been a hell of a lot harder to please since becoming a smark, I know that much.

[Kane Knight]

Tell me about it. Even the Dominatrix gear doesn't do it for you anymore. :mad:

[Marc the Smark]

Okay, but if the internet fans are so important to them, why are they always dissin' us? :shifty:

[Kane Knight]

One word. Scapegoat.

[Kane Knight]

BTW, I don't actually believe smarks are killing wrestling, I just threw that one out because the logic is such total shit.

[thuganomicalcrippler]

It definitely is better to be a mark. When you're a mark, wrestling skills, workrate, talent, it just doesn't matter to you. You enjoy the atmosphere, appreciate the wrestlers for what they do, and overall, it just seems much more interesting.

[Kane Knight]

Can't be too much more interesting. they're having trouble finding enough marks, and the "smarks" are the only ones who really hang on rabidly...

[KillerWolf]

So you have never ever followed a popular trend and then stopped when it fades away? And if you have, does that mean you are a "mark" that can't come up with your own opinions?
in my case that is correct. i never have.

[Kane Knight]

in my case that is correct. i never have.
Ricky probably can't understand such a thing. :D

[KillerWolf]

That's true, but they aren't real fans, and those kind of people bug the s</>hit out of me. Although, I'm also annoyed by the people who are self-professed "smarts." That label should only be reserved for those who work in the business.
i am a real fan. ive been watching wrestling since 1991. i am losing interest in wrestling because the product is CRAP. i am not a mark. i have never cheered for or liked who the company has told me to like. i have always cheered for those who were genuinely entertaining.

and yes i think most marks are pretty simple, and do NOT have THEIR OWN opinions.

i think anyone who marks out for the likes of LITA or STACY KEIBLER has a simple mind. thats the same as going to see a movie because it some blonde bimbo actress is going to show her boobs in it. if i want to see pornography, i'll watch pornography.

marks never cheer for the bad guy. they like who and what they are told to like. anyway, ive totally lost f-ucking composure here, so thatns alot Red Hot Scott!

oh, yeah, my point is Kane Knight is right, they can only string people along with CRAP for so long, and you are not les than a 'real fan' if you were to abandon hope and stop watching wwe at this point or even a year ago.

[KillerWolf]

Personally I don't like those things, but when they make as much money as they do they are doing something right. Even if it is a temporary thing.

I don't think comparing wrestling to these things is relevant by the way. Just my opinion.
IMO what these things do is appeal to the lowest common denomenator. ive always wondered why marylin manson is banned for his (look) and righteous political outrage, but britny spears and aguilara whoring it up on stage is ok for 8 year olds.

[Kane Knight]

Because Manson's not a chick. :roll:

DUH!

[KillerWolf]

I'm kind of a "smark," I guess (though I'm very confused by all these labels), and I'm not suggesting "smarks" aren't "real" fans. I'm saying people who watching wrestling only once-in-a-while, the ones who leave when they're not entertained, the people who stop watching wrestling and go watch reality shows... those are the ones I'm referring to. "Real" fans watch wrestling whether it's "cool" or not. And just to clarify, I have no problem with "marks." In fact, on the contrary.
to me it has nothing to do with whether its cool or not. i dont watch smackdown anymore, i just read the spoilers. i watch only parts of raw. i mean when its the same crap week in and week out, then whats the point . i usually dont watch the RAW main events. i mean if its Benoit and HBK against evolution for the fourth week in a row, and the outcome of the match means nothing, (btw, the tag team titles mean nothing) i just cant do it anymore.

[KillerWolf]

But, see, a lot of the people who watched it had no clue whether it was good or not. They didn't even really know what was going on. They just watched it because it was popular.

When it stopped being popular, they stopped watching. I'm sure there are plenty of fans who turned off their TVs because it wasn't good and the WWE permanently lost plenty of possible hardcore fans. But there are even more that were just watching because it was something to do.
didnt it stop being popular because it stopped being any good :?:

[Kane Knight]

didnt it stop being popular because it stopped being any good :?:
That's a matter of opinion. It looks to me like the pop crowd tired of it while it was still going pretty stronf (especially compared to now).

[KillerWolf]

How can a real fan be someone who "turns off bad wrestling?" That's like cheering for the Yankees just because they're popular, or cheering for the Red Sox but only when they win. I'm not trying to argue that you're not a "real" fan, just trying to understand what you mean. And no, I don't buy the merchandise just to support the show.
dude, i gotta disagree with that statement. wrestling has sucked for a long time. and apparently the only way it is going to get better is

1- some competition arises

2- people stop watching their current lazy product

[Marc the Smark]

i think anyone who marks out for the likes of LITA or STACY KEIBLER has a simple mind. thats the same as going to see a movie because it some blonde bimbo actress is going to show her boobs in it. if i want to see pornography, i'll watch pornography.

I agree with your reasoning. I wish they'd cut back on all the t 'n' a stuff, because "sports entertainment" isn't really the place for it. Sure, these women are pretty, but when they display their bodies the way they do, they kind of become more trashy.

oh, yeah, my point is Kane Knight is right, they can only string people along with CRAP for so long, and you are not les than a 'real fan' if you were to abandon hope and stop watching wwe at this point or even a year ago.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. Kane Knight wrote, "I mean, when wrestling no longer is cool, all the followers will go off to reality shows or whatever else they're being told is cool this week." I responded, "That's true, but they aren't real fans, and those kind of people bug the shit out of me." If someone's only watching wrestling because his friends are, if those people even exist, then they aren't "real" fans. If someone's not watching only because his friends aren't, then that person is just a fool. Ya know what I mean?

[Marc the Smark]

dude, i gotta disagree with that statement. wrestling has sucked for a long time. and apparently the only way it is going to get better is

1- some competition arises

2- people stop watching their current lazy product

I believe I corrected myself in a previous post, after this reasoning was better explained to me. If we don't like the product, perhaps the best thing to do is to turn it off. How else will they know we don't like it? So yes, you're rightt, and I stand corrected.

[KillerWolf]

Because Manson's not a chick. :roll:

DUH!
really!??:eek:

[CYCLOPTERSAURUS]

I don't think you have to read about all the backstage stuff on the internet to have an opinion of your own. I never enjoyed big lumbering guys loaded on steriods that squash smaller guys. That just bores the hell out of me. I never thought wrestling was "real", and I don't see why anybody would want to think that. I watch because certain wrestlers are talented in the ring and put on a good show, and some wrestlers cut entertaining promos.

The storylines are so simplistic, you have to be entertained by the actual show - if you're watching because you want the good guy to win all the time, and don't care about the wrestling itself - it's really a bad television show. Stuff like the earlier "24" example (I don't watch it, but I'll use it as an example nonetheless) you can get involved in because of the immersive and complex storylines and good acting. With wrestling, there are so many ridiculous characters, moves, and stories, that it makes it impossible to think it's real even for a second. Wrestling shows do not offer enough at face value to get me to support them financially, because they are so shallow - I watch for the performances. And people like Hogan and Nash simply don't put on a good show in or out of the ring, so whether or not I know about their backstage antics, I'm not going to cheer them because they give me no reason to. They're slow, boring, and dull.

If you can get your kicks by rooting for the "good guys" two (or four) hours a week, good for you, that is simpler, but I can't (and wouldn't want to) ever imagine the characters and stories as reality in any capicity. I watch for the wrestlers and characters that entertain me. If the only entertainment I could get out of it was as simple as Hogan feuding with Andre the Giant, I simply would not watch.

I'm not bashing anybody, and I hope I articulated my ideas well enough for you to see what I'm saying.

[Marc the Smark]

And people like Hogan and Nash simply don't put on a good show in or out of the ring, so whether or not I know about their backstage antics, I'm not going to cheer them because they give me no reason to. They're slow, boring, and dull.

Yes, a lot of people say that about Hogan now. They call him a "has been" and whatnot, and that's certainly their prerogative. But I could never do that. I think he's given us too much, too many years of entertainment, to just cast him off as "boring."