DISCUSSION - Is anyone else UNIMPRESSED with Chris Benoit and Edge as FACES?

[Heyman]

DISCUSSION - Is anyone else UNIMPRESSED with Chris Benoit and Edge as FACES?

Here is my take on this:

I am pretty disappointed with the FACE reactions that Edge and Chris Benoit have been receiving. In both cases, it has been LUKEWARM to say the very least.

In <font color=white>Benoit's</font>case, the guy is a main-eventer. Granted he's been receiving face pops, but are they really that explosive? I mean - does Benoit get the same level of face pops as.........Guerrero, John Cena, Chris Jericho, or even RVD? (in RVD's case, his face pops were TWICE as loud in year 2001). What scares me the most about all of this, is that Benoit is a NEW World Champion. Therefore, shouldn't his face pops be at its LOUDEST (or close to it) right about now???!??! hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?!?!?!

And for christ sakes, is anyone else downright BORED with <font color=white>Edge</font> right now? GOOD GOD! The WWE will have to do a helluva lot more if they want Edge to be popular with the fans. If you ask me, Edge is kind of like Angle.........in that, he's FAR better as a heel. Some guys, for whatever reason, just aren't that COOL as faces. Edge just may be one of those.


<Font color=red>Heyman's Solution</font>: Turn Both men heel in the VERY near future.

1) Have Edge re-unite with Christian. Get rid of that dipsh</>it Tyson Tomko while you're at it. Edge and Christian don't have to be a tag team (nor do I want to see that happen). Maybe tag on random occassions. However - have them have a solid alliance with one another. They can help each other out in HIGH PROFILE singles matches.

I'd even go as far to say...............Have them "Share" Trish Stratus! Yes - you read that right. Not only would the "slut" chants increase ten-fold for Trish, but Edge and Christian would also get a helluva lot more attention. I'm not suggesting that Trish make out with both Edge AND Christian on the same show, but it can be IMPLIED that she's with both men. One week, she can make out with Edge, Christian on the other. :naughty:


2) As far as Mr. Benoit is concerned, I'd like to see him become the heel that he was in year 2000 (i.e. a super serious heel that cripples his opponents). I truly believe that Benoit can garner much better heel heat (as opposed to 'face pops') if he acts like he did in year 2000. With Benoit as a heel, he can then begin a program with Chris Jericho. In year 2000, these guys had an awesome feud going. I see no reason why they can't do it again. Ultimately, Jericho "one-ups" Benoit and goes on to feud with Randy Orton (In the feud between Jericho and Benoit, both men get CLEAN victories....before Jericho defeats Benoit again).

<font color=white>So.......Who turns FACE if Edge and Benoit go HEEL???!?!</font>

In my opinion, turn KANE and TRIPLE H (or Randy Orton.....I'll elaborate on this a little later) FACE.

1) With Kane, I'd have him become a badas monster that randomly attacks heels. Remember back in 98'........when he kept interrupting matches only to chokeslam people in the middle of the ring? (he got sent to the assylum after this). I'm thinking that the same can happen here. Kane can kind of be "Austin-like"........in that, he does things on his own terms. Kane can cause Bischoff all sorts of problems. If Kane is to work as a face however, he can't show ANY "emotion". No "feelings". Bad ass face Kane = MARKETABILITY! Mark my words. :yes:


2) It's obvious that Triple H and Randy Orton will be headed for a collision course in the not-so-distant future. The question is, who do you turn FACE? While it's arguable that it's WAY too soon to turn Orton face, you also have to understand that Triple H sucks DONKEY BALLS as a face. For this reason alone, perhaps it's better that Orton turns face.

Is it possible that Orton can garner a whole bunch of "Randy!" chants?


Here's what I'm thinking - In the "not-so-distant" future, Orton can begin another mini-program with Shawn Michaels. This time however, Orton defeats HBK CLEANLY......in a hard fought match. After the match, the two men shake hands. :eek:

Meanwhile, Triple H continues to be frustrated as he can't win back the World title. Triple H starts to get jealous of Randy Orton......who the fans are now starting to RESPECT. This leads to the conflict. Orton then gets the BOOT from Evolution (in the "Evolution" stable, Batista now represents "the future").

With Orton as a face, here are the potential advantages:

a) Guys like Christian can become more prominent. Think about it - Christian has momentum right now, but he's behind Orton in the 'ladder' (in regards to 'who's next in line' for a main-event push). with Orton as a face, the door opens up for Christian. The same can be said for Batista. With Orton out of Evolution, Batista can play a more prominent role within the group.

b) We don't have to see Triple H as a face. *shudders at the thought* ;)

c) If my plan goes down and Benoit does indeed make the TURN, then a face Orton can perhaps challenge Benoit at next year's Mania'.

More than likely however (and the better and more logical scenerio), we'll see Hunter make the face turn. Still - I think this scenerio does sound interesting.

[Rock Bottom]

What, you are smoking mega crack. Benoit has the crowds roaring.

[The Icon of Elisim]

Benoit is working as a face main eventer quite well.

I didn't think that Edge would work as a main event face when I heard he was coming back, but now that I see him he has put on some muscle and now I think that he has the look and the talent. The crowd definetly is behind him and I think that he'll just get more over as he gets ride of his ring rust and recovers from the broken hand.

[Heyman]

What, you are smoking mega crack. Benoit has the crowds roaring.

Compared to the likes of Cena, Guerrero, Jericho (when he peaks), and RVD (the way he was in 2001). I don't think so.

Do I even have to show you tapes about how 'over' Austin was in 98'? Or The Rock in 2000? Benoit doesn't come even close.

[Heyman]

Benoit is working as a face main eventer quite well.

I didn't think that Edge would work as a main event face when I heard he was coming back, but now that I see him he has put on some muscle and now I think that he has the look and the talent. The crowd definetly is behind him and I think that he'll just get more over as he gets ride of his ring rust and recovers from the broken hand.

Let me guess.

You were also impressed with TEST's face pops in 99' when he was about to marry Stephanie McMahon. :nono:

[Kane Knight]

Compared to the likes of Cena, Guerrero, Jericho (when he peaks), and RVD (the way he was in 2001). I don't think so.

Do I even have to show you tapes about how 'over' Austin was in 98'? Or The Rock in 2000? Benoit doesn't come even close.
Oh my God! They're not anywhere near as big as the two biggest names in the last 10 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Honestly, this is just getting weak, Heyman.

[John la Rock]

Benoit is so over right now with the fans. I think his pops are as loud as Guererro and Cena. Especially since Backlash and Raw was in Edmonton and Calgary respectively.

The only problem I have with Edge is his music. Where's his Rob Zombie theme? It's 100 X better than his E and C music :mad:

[#1-norm-fan]

Benoit: He's getting good reactions because of this whole "Cinderella story". Let's see if it keeps up once he starts becoming a real force. As of now, he's fine as a face because the people seem to like him (Although I personally am pretty bored with him.)

Edge is a great face though. No arguments.

[Heyman]

Oh my God! They're not anywhere near as big as the two biggest names in the last 10 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Honestly, this is just getting weak, Heyman.


Oh.....it's WEAK?

EXCUSE me for having high standards! :o

Don't get me wrong - I'm happier than ANYONE that Benoit is World Champion.......however, I just feel that his face pops aren't at the level that it should be...........if the WWE has intentions of seeing ratings sky rocket.

RAW SPOILER AHEAD.

Did you watch Jericho last night when he attacked Christian? The crowd was going NUTS. There was a BUZZ in the crowd. Remember when Foley announced the return of The Rock? BUZZ! THAT my friend's, is a FACE pop.

I just don't think that Benoit can attract NEW FANS to the WWE.......in the manner that Austin, Hogan, and The Rock did.......and in the manner that a guy like John Cena could.....or Chris Jericho could........or if RVD won the title in 2001.

In my view, Benoit and Edge are much better suited to being heels.

[Funky Fly]

I am impressed with Benoit as of late. It kinda sucks that Edge is working with that broken hand. He's got what it takes to be champ, but "constantly mad" Edge doesn't do it for me on the mic.

I miss "generally pretty happy, but **** with me and I'll kill you" Edge. You know how he was pulling pranks on Angle, but when you made him mad he'd go psycho in 2002? I miss that so much. :'(

[#1-norm-fan]

I am impressed with Benoit as of late. It kinda sucks that Edge is working with that broken hand. He's got what it takes to be champ, but "constantly mad" Edge doesn't do it for me on the mic.

Oddly that's almost my exact problem with Benoit. Always so damn bitter. Where's the love?

[PureHatred]

I think it's too early into his comeback to make any judgments on Edge. I agree with Funky that I enjoyed Edge more when he was funny as well as serious.

And I do agree that Benoit is more efeective as a heel or tweener, but that's probably not going to happen in the immediate future. Maybe near Survivor Series.

Honestly, even with this week's show, I'm digging Raw lately and don't see a need for any drasic change.

[Heyman]

QUESTION - Can anyone see Benoit DRAWING as World Champion as a face? If so - on what basis?

-Austin had his 'novel' "beat up my boss" gimmick.

-The Rock was a genius on the mic

-Hulk Hogan represented what an " American hero" should be, and the fans 'got off' on that.

What does Benoit bring to the table as a face? Couldn't one argue that he is just as "poor man's" Bret Hart? How much did Bret draw as a face?


How does Benoit relate to the target audience? (i.e. teenagers, people in their early 20's).

-Jericho has great mic skills.
-Guerrero can attract Latino's
-Cena has the 'Eminem 8 mile battle rapper" gimmick

Can Benoit's "talent" alone really bring in NEW fans? NEW is the key word here.

If the WWE are content in scoring mid 3's in their ratings, then Benoit is perfect. This topic is then pointless.

[Heyman]

P.S. Anyone want to comment on my Orton thoughts? Or anything else I may have mentioned in my initial post?

[#1-norm-fan]

I say a Triple H face turn would be okay if he were willing to put Randy over in the feud. A heel winning a feud over a face gives them much more credibility than vice versa.

[Krow]

Maybe if they had Benoit fighting more people than HBK and the occasional tag match against Evolution, he wouldn't be "unimpressive." Same goes with Edge. He came back to a lukewarm reaction, but really, what has he done? He beat an un-monster fall guy in Kane, and now is fighting in tag matches with other main eventers. What the hell was the point of him being in the match on RAW Monday night? Really. Just give them a different way to go about HBK and Benoit "accidentally" beating each other down?

There isn't a lot of weight at the top of the ladder at RAW anymore, so it's hard to circulate when the main event face/heel ration is 3/4 (at least, at the moment). Try elevating more people to that status or keep them there (i.e. Kane, Jericho, Christian, Veee-onnnuh!) rather than settling on five or six standards with a few wild-cards to throw in on random occasions.

[Mikey]

Anyone who they bring back as a face after an injury turns heel soon anyways so I wont be surprised if Edge turns before the year is out

[Shaggy]

I dont like Edge has a face. I thought Edge was great when he was a heel with Christian. That was one of the greatest Tag Teams right there. That was one of the big things I was hoping for when Raw got Edge. The hope of Edge and Christian reformign there tag team just made me happy inside.

[Imagi-Nation]

Benoit :-\
He isnt over the way he should be considering his push and being the new world champ. Ive never really liked Benoit though. I can understand why you all love him, and I respect him for being a great wrestler...but I just find him boring.

As for Edge, I think he is stale. I loved him as a heel. I hope he gets turned heel, because as a face he is nowhere near as entertaining. Right now Christian is my fav wrestler, along with Matt Hardy. Christian is just hilarious. He is great as a heel. I hope Edge gets to play that heel role too because he is entertainment when he is a heel.

also cant wait for Jeff Hardy return

[ItsTimeForAChange]

Benoit is a pretty good face, I think. He seems to be getting over well, and once HBK goes full-blown heel, I think he'll be over even more.

As for Edge... well, I don't know. Hes a decent face, I suppose, but I really don't care for him much being a top face. But what it really all boils down to for me is I'm tired of seeing the same main events on RAW, Mondays show wasn't very good at all, I liked the Tajiri/HHH match, but wasn't too happy with the rehash of last weeks main-event.

Hopefully HBK & Benoits match this coming monday will be better.

[Cactus Sid]

Just thought I'd pitch in that Ratings have been better recently, not neccessarily a full-scale improvement, but this week Raw got a 4.0, and they hadn't even hyped the show, the 3.8's prior to this week are better than they were a year ago.

[Kane Knight]

Yeah, but what do ratings or pops have to do with anything?

[SeanMC]

You know what im tired of? People not giving Benoit a goddamn chance. Every week i see someone complaining about Benoit not getting enoughr eaction, f-ucking hell did you even see Raw these past few weeks? Did you see the amount of heat HHH and HBK got at Backlash and how over with the crowd Benoit was? I know it was in his hometown but he's still getting crowd reactions. But i know your gonna say he still needs to prove himself in other places than his hometown, but give him a f-ucking chance first. Oh and did you see Wrestlemania when he won the title? Cos i don't think you did if you're still coming up with this criticise Benoit bullshit.

[Kane Knight]

Yeah, but what do ratings or pops have to do with anything?

[Sensei Of Mattitude]

Ive been unimpressed with everything Benoit has done in WWF/WWE except his match against Angle at X-7 and vs Jericho (IC Ladder Match)

[SeanMC]

^ Your full of bullshit ain't ya.

[Kane Knight]

Which one?

[KillerWolf]

I am impressed with Benoit as of late. It kinda sucks that Edge is working with that broken hand. He's got what it takes to be champ, but "constantly mad" Edge doesn't do it for me on the mic.

I miss "generally pretty happy, but **** with me and I'll kill you" Edge. You know how he was pulling pranks on Angle, but when you made him mad he'd go psycho in 2002? I miss that so much. :'(
the only EDGE i ever 'liked' was the "smart-ass. E&C, eatin jolly ranchers outta the king of the ring trophy edge. currently though, he hasnt been bad other than that f-ucking grin and stupid dance that he does during his entrances.

[blake639raw]

Have Edge re-unite with Christian. Get rid of that dipsh</>it Tyson Tomko while you're at it. Edge and Christian don't have to be a tag team (nor do I want to see that happen). Maybe tag on random occassions. However - have them have a solid alliance with one another. They can help each other out in HIGH PROFILE singles matches.
I think Edge/Christian in a heel faction, if given the proper push, could be as big as DX. However, Orton has the top heel spot all but locked up, and with him leading Evolution, Edge and Christian's group would get buried. He has been pretty unimpressive as a face, but he's been gone along time, so I'll cut him a little slack. Personally, I would have rather seen Christian get traded to SD, and him and Edge could have reunited in a heel faction, and Edge would get the title from Eddie at SummerSlam. And think about Christian/Cena for the US Title. :drool:
As far as Mr. Benoit is concerned, I'd like to see him become the heel that he was in year 2000 (i.e. a super serious heel that cripples his opponents). I truly believe that Benoit can garner much better heel heat (as opposed to 'face pops') if he acts like he did in year 2000. With Benoit as a heel, he can then begin a program with Chris Jericho. In year 2000, these guys had an awesome feud going. I see no reason why they can't do it again. Ultimately, Jericho "one-ups" Benoit and goes on to feud with Randy Orton (In the feud between Jericho and Benoit, both men get CLEAN victories....before Jericho defeats Benoit again).
A Benoit heel turn would probably work, but I wouldn't do it until around the end of the year. I like him better as a heel too. A Jericho/Benoit feud would rule, and they could easily deliver the moty, but I don't see Jericho ever getting pushed. They would be absolutely stupid to not utilize Jericho against Benoit.
With Kane, I'd have him become a badas monster that randomly attacks heels. Remember back in 98'........when he kept interrupting matches only to chokeslam people in the middle of the ring? (he got sent to the assylum after this). I'm thinking that the same can happen here. Kane can kind of be "Austin-like"........in that, he does things on his own terms. Kane can cause Bischoff all sorts of problems. If Kane is to work as a face however, he can't show ANY "emotion". No "feelings". Bad ass face Kane = MARKETABILITY!
Kane doesn't really matter. He's been pushed and depushed so many times, nobody can really take him seriously anymore. When he first lost his mask, he had a chance to be something. But I think we all know what happened to that. I don't think Kane would work as a face though. People related to Austin, because he was feuding with his boss, and giving him the finger. Who in the hell can relate to Kane?
While it's arguable that it's WAY too soon to turn Orton face, you also have to understand that Triple H sucks DONKEY BALLS as a face.
LOL
Meanwhile, Triple H continues to be frustrated as he can't win back the World title. Triple H starts to get jealous of Randy Orton......who the fans are now starting to RESPECT. This leads to the conflict. Orton then gets the BOOT from Evolution (in the "Evolution" stable, Batista now represents "the future").
I don't agree about Orton. Forcing Orton into a face turn that he's not ready for could ruin his career. I say make him the top heel of RAW, and after he wins the belt, have great rivalries with HHH and Jericho. IMO, he should follow the Rock's path. He should take over Evolution, and beat HHH in a match, cleanly with the RKO. I'd like to see Orton/HHH sometime before Mania, with Orton winning the gold. At Mania, it would be Orton/HBK for the title.

[6to1]

benoit sucks at the mic he allways did if he had someone like flair doing the talking for him he would be realy over.

[Kane Knight]

benoit sucks at the mic he allways did if he had someone like flair doing the talking for him he would be realy over.
:|

[The Duck]

*drools at the potential of Christian/Edge/Trish heel stable*

Seriously, IMAGINE the heat. The potential and chemistry those guys have together....

[The CyNick]

I agree with a lot of what Blake said.

E+C as heels would have been great on Smackdown, because of the shortage, but on RAW its all about Orton, as it should be!

In terms of Benoit as a face, looking at Edmonton and Calgary to judge his overness is a bit misleading, just like using El Paso Texas would be misleading to judge how over Eddie is. I dont think they should turn him heel at this point, no he wont be as over as Austin, but he could be a steady champion who people respect kinda like Bret Hart was.

I thought Benoit was getting the shaft after Mania, but since Backlash, he's been in all the main events (its only 2, but still), and he's been the featured guy. But last week the crowd was really behind him, and I thought that was positive. The only thing I'd like to see with Benoit for me to really take him seriously as a main eventer would be to see them have a feud with someone other than HHH and HBK.

In terms of comparing pops, thats really irrelevant. Cena gets tons of pops (maybe more than anyone on RAW or SD) but what does that really mean? Pops dont increase ratings, they dont sell tix, and they dont get people to order PPVs. Benoit was lucky because he was on a show with Mick Foley's return to the ring as a singles, so I'm sure that helped the Backlash buyrate, but a more accurate test for his drawing ability will be the Bad Blood PPV. Houses have been decent, and RAW TV tapings are drawing better houses and the ratings are up from before Mania. So with all the stuff that counts, you cant really say Benoit is doing bad, he's not tearing up business, but at this point nobody will.

Speaking of ratings, I always laugh where I see these posts that say "turn so and so heel, and ratings will skyrocket". What people have to understand is that a heel turn, a face turn, a new faction isn't going to skyrocket ratings. Ratings will only go up when they can find a fresh new star to lead the company, push them right and make consistantly good television. HHH and HBK as a babyface faction WILL NOT make ratings skyrocket. They should worry about moving forward, not looking back, if you want to look back watch some old tapes, it was probably better the first time.

Orton is not ready for a babyface push. Eventually the fans will turn him face, until then, keep him heel. HHH sucks either way (face or heel), so we're doomed either way. Plus he's going to be on top for the next 20 years, so in that time I'm sure he'll have many face/heel turns.

This is my last post on anything to do with "pushing Kane", he's dead as potential draw, and really could be released and nobody would miss him. Maybe we can make Shane McMahon the new Big Red Machine.

[tucsonspeed6]

DISCUSSION - Is anyone else UNIMPRESSED with Chris Benoit and Edge as FACES?

Here is my take on this:

I am pretty disappointed with the FACE reactions that Edge and Chris Benoit have been receiving. In both cases, it has been LUKEWARM to say the very least.

In <font color=white>Benoit's</font>case, the guy is a main-eventer. Granted he's been receiving face pops, but are they really that explosive? I mean - does Benoit get the same level of face pops as.........Guerrero, John Cena, Chris Jericho, or even RVD? (in RVD's case, his face pops were TWICE as loud in year 2001). What scares me the most about all of this, is that Benoit is a NEW World Champion. Therefore, shouldn't his face pops be at its LOUDEST (or close to it) right about now???!??! hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?!?!?!


I have no problems with Benoit right now. Sure he doesn't have that "kick the boss's ass" gimmick or the mic skills of mic skills of Rocky, but he does have something that the fans like, and that's the ability to work in the ring. Maybe the world isn't going to hell in a hand basket...maybe the marks out there aren't so stupid that they don't know a good match from a bad one. He does get good pops though.


And for christ sakes, is anyone else downright BORED with <font color=white>Edge</font> right now? GOOD GOD! The WWE will have to do a helluva lot more if they want Edge to be popular with the fans. If you ask me, Edge is kind of like Angle.........in that, he's FAR better as a heel. Some guys, for whatever reason, just aren't that COOL as faces. Edge just may be one of those.

Edge didn't really do it for me on Monday. I just didn't go for the whole energetic "I'm gonna kick your ass" thing he was doing. He seemed like a rehash of HBK to me for some reason. Maybe you're right on this one. Maybe a heel turn would do him some good. And BTW, I actually enjoy Angle as a face. I think he can play either with just as much of the crowd behind him.

<Font color=red>Heyman's Solution</font>: Turn Both men heel in the VERY near future.

1) Have Edge re-unite with Christian. Get rid of that dipsh</>it Tyson Tomko while you're at it. Edge and Christian don't have to be a tag team (nor do I want to see that happen). Maybe tag on random occassions. However - have them have a solid alliance with one another. They can help each other out in HIGH PROFILE singles matches.

I'd even go as far to say...............Have them "Share" Trish Stratus! Yes - you read that right. Not only would the "slut" chants increase ten-fold for Trish, but Edge and Christian would also get a helluva lot more attention. I'm not suggesting that Trish make out with both Edge AND Christian on the same show, but it can be IMPLIED that she's with both men. One week, she can make out with Edge, Christian on the other. :naughty:
Maybe if they kept Tomko around. IE: Edge gets on a losing streak and gets himself into a fix that results in his needing protection. He sees that his old buddy Christian has a big guy and so the two bury the hatchet. The end result is a 4 person stable with E&C hiding behind their big friend. Either way, they stuck Tomko with Christian for a reason. He hasn't said anything on the mic yet, so I'm guessing they don't feel his mic skills are up to par yet, so they stuck him with Christian. I'd feel flattered if I were x-tian and they wanted me to be somebody's mouthpiece. It shows that he's got charisma and hella tight mic skills. Woot and stuff


2) As far as Mr. Benoit is concerned, I'd like to see him become the heel that he was in year 2000 (i.e. a super serious heel that cripples his opponents). I truly believe that Benoit can garner much better heel heat (as opposed to 'face pops') if he acts like he did in year 2000. With Benoit as a heel, he can then begin a program with Chris Jericho. In year 2000, these guys had an awesome feud going. I see no reason why they can't do it again. Ultimately, Jericho "one-ups" Benoit and goes on to feud with Randy Orton (In the feud between Jericho and Benoit, both men get CLEAN victories....before Jericho defeats Benoit again).

:yes: to heels winning cleanly. The last heel that I remember winning cleanly on a consecutive basis is Taker, and that was a while ago... :y:

<font color=white>So.......Who turns FACE if Edge and Benoit go HEEL???!?!</font>

In my opinion, turn KANE and TRIPLE H (or Randy Orton.....I'll elaborate on this a little later) FACE.

1) With Kane, I'd have him become a badas monster that randomly attacks heels. Remember back in 98'........when he kept interrupting matches only to chokeslam people in the middle of the ring? (he got sent to the assylum after this). I'm thinking that the same can happen here. Kane can kind of be "Austin-like"........in that, he does things on his own terms. Kane can cause Bischoff all sorts of problems. If Kane is to work as a face however, he can't show ANY "emotion". No "feelings". Bad ass face Kane = MARKETABILITY! Mark my words. :yes:

Too reminiscent of Austin. Not many Smarks liked Austin's random heel stunning as the "sheriff" and I'm guessing that not too many more would care for Kane's random heel chokeslamming as the "gentle monster"....Oh, after reading over this again, I see that you actually mention Austin in the post. Shame! :nono:



2) It's obvious that Triple H and Randy Orton will be headed for a collision course in the not-so-distant future. The question is, who do you turn FACE? While it's arguable that it's WAY too soon to turn Orton face, you also have to understand that Triple H sucks DONKEY BALLS as a face. For this reason alone, perhaps it's better that Orton turns face.

Is it possible that Orton can garner a whole bunch of "Randy!" chants?
THere's a fine line between being a super heel and a super face. The most hated of heels can be loved almost instantly, because they've got that charisma that pushes them to the extremes. There's a little Loose Cannon in all of us just tearing at the walls, waiting for Orton to turn face so we can all mark the f*** out... Think of the Rock. Remember "Die Rocky Die!"? There were people out there who wanted the guy dead, yet he turned out to be the biggest face in the past decade at least.


Here's what I'm thinking - In the "not-so-distant" future, Orton can begin another mini-program with Shawn Michaels. This time however, Orton defeats HBK CLEANLY......in a hard fought match. After the match, the two men shake hands. :eek:

Meanwhile, Triple H continues to be frustrated as he can't win back the World title. Triple H starts to get jealous of Randy Orton......who the fans are now starting to RESPECT. This leads to the conflict. Orton then gets the BOOT from Evolution (in the "Evolution" stable, Batista now represents "the future").


:yes: :y: :yes:


With Orton as a face, here are the potential advantages:

a) Guys like Christian can become more prominent. Think about it - Christian has momentum right now, but he's behind Orton in the 'ladder' (in regards to 'who's next in line' for a main-event push). with Orton as a face, the door opens up for Christian. The same can be said for Batista. With Orton out of Evolution, Batista can play a more prominent role within the group.


He did mention the Heavyweight title in last Monday's show. Its a word that I haven't heard coming from him in a long time. (Could he actually make an attempt at the title? :drool: )


b) We don't have to see Triple H as a face. *shudders at the thought* ;)

c) If my plan goes down and Benoit does indeed make the TURN, then a face Orton can perhaps challenge Benoit at next year's Mania'.

More than likely however (and the better and more logical scenerio), we'll see Hunter make the face turn. Still - I think this scenerio does sound interesting.

:nono: at the idea of HHH being a face... :nono:

Better yet would be Orton v. Cena in a interpromotional match. :D

[Rob]

Compared to the likes of Cena, Guerrero, Jericho (when he peaks), and RVD (the way he was in 2001). I don't think so.

Do I even have to show you tapes about how 'over' Austin was in 98'? Or The Rock in 2000? Benoit doesn't come even close.

Austin and The Rock weren't getting pops that big in 2004 either so very bad example. Benoit's reaction now is just as big as anyone elses on the roster.

[Loose Cannon]

but on RAW its all about Orton, as it should be!

If I can rep you about 3000 times I would.

But Heyman, I think Benoit makes a great champ right now and Edge is just coming back, so give him time. I think Edge will most likely turn in a short while though.

Orton NEEDS to stayb heel and feud with a Face HHH when that comes about. Orton got some chants two weeks ago, but that was in Canada and Canadians tend to cheer the heels at times. But Orton has a great character as a heel and it's only fitting if he starts stealing HHH's spotlight and starts acting like he should be the main guy because he's winning the matches.

[Heyman]

If I can rep you about 3000 times I would.

But Heyman, I think Benoit makes a great champ right now and Edge is just coming back, so give him time. I think Edge will most likely turn in a short while though.

Orton NEEDS to stayb heel and feud with a Face HHH when that comes about. Orton got some chants two weeks ago, but that was in Canada and Canadians tend to cheer the heels at times. But Orton has a great character as a heel and it's only fitting if he starts stealing HHH's spotlight and starts acting like he should be the main guy because he's winning the matches.

I realize this. I would also keep Orton as heel. I was just playing Devil's advocate. When you combine the following factors:

1) Triple H sucks donkey balls as a face
2) Christian deserves a push as a heel (very tough if Orton is also a heel)

I think one could make a (weak) argument for an Orton face turn. However - I'd much rather see him be heel. Last thing we want, is to turn him face prematurely (like the WWE did with Lesnar IMO).

[Heyman]

Austin and The Rock weren't getting pops that big in 2004 either so very bad example. Benoit's reaction now is just as big as anyone elses on the roster.

Yes, but I was referring to their respective PEAKS. Benoit is champion NOW.


Benoit is getting decent face pops, but I question his ability to bring in new fans. From where I sit, he's nothing more than a "poor man's Bret Hart" as a face.

I think a guy like Jericho can elicit a bigger face pop if he was in Benoit's position right now. I think a FACE Chris Jericho, could potentially BRING IN new fans (or fans that have deserted wrestling).

Benoit's reaction may be just as big as anyone elses on the roster, but is this a good thing? He's the CHAMP. His pops should undoubtedly be the LARGEST....like Guerrero's on Smackdown.

[Heyman]

I agree with a lot of what Blake said.

E+C as heels would have been great on Smackdown, because of the shortage, but on RAW its all about Orton, as it should be!

I agree that Raw should be about Orton. However - what becomes of Christian? If Orton's next in line for a heel main-event push, then Christian's current build-up right now becomes almost pointless. I'd love to see Edge, Christian, and Trish head to Smackdown.

In terms of Benoit as a face, looking at Edmonton and Calgary to judge his overness is a bit misleading, just like using El Paso Texas would be misleading to judge how over Eddie is. I dont think they should turn him heel at this point, no he wont be as over as Austin, but he could be a steady champion who people respect kinda like Bret Hart was.

I LOVE seeing Benoit as champion. Hopefully, all posters on here realize this. My biggest concern, is that he doesn't have the ability to attract NEW fans. Sure - die hard wrestling fans love seeing Benoit be champ, but what about the casual audience? Since most people know that wrestling is 'fake' (or actually believe that EVERYTHING about wrestling is "fake"), do you think these 'new fans' tuning in will really be DRAWN to Benoit based solely on his wrestling ability?

Again - maybe I have unrealistic hopes. It's my wish that the WWE starts scoring 7's and 8's in their ratings like they were in year 2000. Can Benoit, as champ, lead to the 'escalation'?



I thought Benoit was getting the shaft after Mania, but since Backlash, he's been in all the main events (its only 2, but still), and he's been the featured guy. But last week the crowd was really behind him, and I thought that was positive. The only thing I'd like to see with Benoit for me to really take him seriously as a main eventer would be to see them have a feud with someone other than HHH and HBK.

This is a good point. Who does he feud with as a face? Kane? Batista? Flair? Christian? Orton will be a good opponent, but that will be something more for the future. Triple H vs. Chris Benoit one on one is also there.

If he has face vs. face feuds (like against Jericho for instance), this could hurt Benoit's momentum as a face (since the crowd would be split....or even more towards Jericho's side). IMO, it's much better to have the crowd CLEARLY for or against you.

Now take a look at Benoit as a heel. You've got Chris Jericho (the 2nd biggest feud in year 2000), Shelton Benjamin (tremendous from a WRESTLING stand-point), Shawn Michaels, and Edge.

Looking at this, I'd have to say that Benoit's potential matches and fan-interest could be better if he was HEEL. Maybe it's just me.


you cant really say Benoit is doing bad, he's not tearing up business, but at this point nobody will.

Excellent point. But still - wouldn't you agree that a guy like Chris Jericho (if he was in Benoit's current position) would be "more likely" to bring in the ratings in the near future?



Ratings will only go up when they can find a fresh new star to lead the company, push them right and make consistantly good television.

Speaking of this, do you think it's then a good idea to have two 'fresh stars' (going at each other) on the SAME show? In other words - what do you think about a Cena/Orton feud for the future?


Orton is not ready for a babyface push. Eventually the fans will turn him face, until then, keep him heel.

My thought as well.

HHH sucks either way (face or heel), so we're doomed either way. Plus he's going to be on top for the next 20 years, so in that time I'm sure he'll have many face/heel turns.

My biggest concern, is that after Benoit defeats HBK next week, Triple H will get his one-on-one match at the next PPV (and win back the title).

This is my last post on anything to do with "pushing Kane", he's dead as potential draw, and really could be released and nobody would miss him. Maybe we can make Shane McMahon the new Big Red Machine.

I agree for the most part. My line of thinking however, was that the WWE have done everything EXCEPT push Kane as a sadistic monster babyface.

-In the late 90's, he was a sadistic heel
-In the early 2000's, he was a pussy who developed human emotions and became a weakling.
-A little later on, he tried to please the crowd with his "Kanenites".
-He returned to being a sadistic heel.

[Kane Knight]

DISCUSSION: Why does Heyman obssess over homsexuality?

[Heyman]

DISCUSSION: Why does Heyman obssess over homsexuality?

I'm not sure where this originated from to be honest. For whatever reason, I always get disturbing mental images of Jim Ross giving a double handjob to Test and Albert.....and then I laugh.....and then feel the need to say something homosexual-related. :-\

[Kane Knight]

:wtf: That disturbs me a little. Did you have an encounter with a priest or Michael Jackson when you were younger?

[Rob]

I love how people say X wrestler can't bring in new fans. Do any of you actually talk to people who don't watch wrestling about wrestling angles? More than likely not. Any research I do is when I talk to my friends who used to watch and don't know. One week before No Way Out, I told 6 of my friends who all lost interest with wrestling that Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit were getting the world titles on the next 2 PPVs and since then they have all watched more shows than me. They also like what they are seeing because it's different from what they last saw.

A couple of my friends who didn't understand the Benoit love years ago from the smarts told me when they watched Backlash that "Benoit just looked so bad ass. He has that added X factor". I watched the show later and totally saw they meant. Just the way he walks around with the belt, posing right in front of Michaels and Hunter and shouting in their faces after the match. He has that added cockiness and the promos will come in due time (nobody can deny that they are slowly getting better each week). Also, matches get all and people are never gonna see a bad Chris Benoit match.

[The CyNick]

First things first, the WWE was never drawing 7 and 8s consistantly. They were doing 6's consistantly for a while there, but not 7s and 8s. You have to remember that was when WCW was around, and people were switching back and forth between RAW and NItro. After WCW was bought by WWE, the old WCW fans (generally an older crowd, 30+) left with WCW. In theory those fans would probably like a guy like Benoit on top because he's created in the mold of ex-NWA champs more than ex-WWE champs.

Jerihco will not bring in any new fans, he's been with the WWE for a long time, and he's never brought in droves of fans. Granted he's never been given a chance to be a serious main eventer (ie the top guy) but at this point fans are accustomed to seeing him as a goofball and as a result I dont see them ever taking him seriously as the top guy in the company. Not to rag on Heyman, but a lot of times you seem blinded by pops. Yeah Jericho gets great pops, but thats meaningless (well almost meaningless), money is what really counts. I cant see Jericho bringing in new fans anymore than I can see Benoit or Eddie doing it.

In terms of Christian, I think he's in a fine position. Orton is a main event guy now (although this program with Benjamin will likely hault that), and should be mixing with the top guys now. Christian isn't at that level yet, and in a sense he should take Orton's spot from last year. I said in another thread that they should have put Christian in a feud with Shelton (they could have some great matches and put each other over), and then give Christian some matches with guys like HBK and Benoit. He doesn't have to win those (maybe squeeze out a cheesy win over HBK at some point), but just going toe to toe with those guys would continue his elevation. This relates to Jerihco as well, because Christian now has multiple victories over Jericho, and the reaction to him by the crowd as a World Title contender was less than enthusiastic. Why? Because nobody takes Jericho seriously as a top guy. On the other hand, Orton beats Foley and you can see the fans see Orton in a new light. So Christian still needs a good year of working upper level mid card spots before he can get any kind of serious run to the top.

Back to Benoit: I agree that Orton shouldn't win the title yet, so he probably shouldn't feud with Benoit, and the only other guy is HHH. A couple of posts back you mentioned Edge being lame as a babyface so far, and I kinda agree. I think he's trying, but I just dont see him connecting with the fans like say Benoit or HBK does. To be fair, he's just come back, but you'd think after being gone so long he would be over like rover. Also being paired with Kane was another shot in the pants, but still, I dont think things are looking good. I like the idea of Edge as a heel, because then he could do something with him and Benoit. Couple of problems though; first I think they should do the RVD-Eddie friendship deal leading to a RVD heel turn on SD, so I dont think they should run the exact same program on RAW with Edge and Benoit. The other problem is that Edge has a book due out in November I believe, and thats not going to sell well if he's a heel. Whats more likely is that they save him as a babyface to fued with HHH in the Fall. So its tough there aren't a lot of guys for Benoit to program with outside HBK and HHH, which is why I'm sure HHH will get the title back, maybe even in June.

As for Cena and Orton being on the same show, I dont think its the best idea. First, we dont yet know that either one of them can carry the company, we have suspicions but no real proof as of yet. Furthermore, if you take the two hottest up and comers and put them on the same show, it makes that show seem superior (although that already has happened), the WWE claims they want the two shows ot be equal. Finally, I think Cena-Orton could be a huge money match say for Wrestlemania 23, 24 or 25 (now thats long term booking!!). I'd like to see both guys dominate their brand for some time and then come together at some point to create the ultimate RAW vs Smackdown dream match. In theory thats one of the big benefits of the brand extesnion, creating aritifically dream matches. Will it work? Maybe maybe not, but its wirth keeping them apart to find out.

[The CyNick]

I love how people say X wrestler can't bring in new fans. Do any of you actually talk to people who don't watch wrestling about wrestling angles? More than likely not. Any research I do is when I talk to my friends who used to watch and don't know. One week before No Way Out, I told 6 of my friends who all lost interest with wrestling that Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit were getting the world titles on the next 2 PPVs and since then they have all watched more shows than me. They also like what they are seeing because it's different from what they last saw.

A couple of my friends who didn't understand the Benoit love years ago from the smarts told me when they watched Backlash that "Benoit just looked so bad ass. He has that added X factor". I watched the show later and totally saw they meant. Just the way he walks around with the belt, posing right in front of Michaels and Hunter and shouting in their faces after the match. He has that added cockiness and the promos will come in due time (nobody can deny that they are slowly getting better each week). Also, matches get all and people are never gonna see a bad Chris Benoit match.

Its almost impossible to know what will draw, you just have to be ready to capitalize when someone gets hot.

I mean most of my friends who only watched wrestling when they were kids (Hogan era) and the peak of the Attitude era dont care much for Benoit (except for the fact that he's Canadian....errrr Atlantian), they look at him and I've actually had multiple people say this to me: "like Benoit could actually take Kane". So for some people, if you aint big you cant be a main eventer.

[Rob]

I'm not saying they will draw. I'm saying fresh faces will bring fans back as long as the product is still good.

[CBright7831]

*Triple H's theme starts*

Crowd: ...

*Triple H appears*

Crowd: ...

Lilian Garcia: Making his way down to the ring, from Greenwich, CT. He is the WWE World Champion, TRIPLE H!

Crowd: ...

*Triple H spits water*

Dumb guy in crowd: yeah!

The rest of the crowd: ...

[Heyman]

:wtf: That disturbs me a little. Did you have an encounter with a priest or Michael Jackson when you were younger?

Yes. With Michael Jackson.

It was 11 years ago in 1993. I was still a young boy at the time.

It was very fun.

Michael Jackson was very nice, and I went on a lot of rides there at the amusement park.

On my last day there, I had wine and alcohol for first time in my life. Michael Jackson gave it to me.

I got drunk for the first time.

I don't remember what else happened that night, but I remember sleeping in same bed as Michael Jackson.

The next day, my parents came and picked me up from Michael Jackson's ranch. We went home.

For the next week, I always sh</>itted funny. Whenever I shit, it sprayed everywhere in the toilet. I must've had some bad food at Michael Jackson's place.......but my stomach didn't feel upset.

It was strange. :-\

A few years later (circa 1999), I put two and two together and figured out what really had transpired. :nono:

[Heyman]

First things first, the WWE was never drawing 7 and 8s consistantly. They were doing 6's consistantly for a while there, but not 7s and 8s. You have to remember that was when WCW was around, and people were switching back and forth between RAW and NItro. After WCW was bought by WWE, the old WCW fans (generally an older crowd, 30+) left with WCW. In theory those fans would probably like a guy like Benoit on top because he's created in the mold of ex-NWA champs more than ex-WWE champs.

Excellent point.

Jerihco will not bring in any new fans, he's been with the WWE for a long time, and he's never brought in droves of fans. Granted he's never been given a chance to be a serious main eventer (ie the top guy) but at this point fans are accustomed to seeing him as a goofball and as a result I dont see them ever taking him seriously as the top guy in the company. Not to rag on Heyman, but a lot of times you seem blinded by pops. Yeah Jericho gets great pops, but thats meaningless (well almost meaningless), money is what really counts. I cant see Jericho bringing in new fans anymore than I can see Benoit or Eddie doing it.


Hmmmmmm.............

Out of the current guys in the WWE right now, who do you think has potential to BRING IN new fans? (other than Kane ;)). I'd say Randy Orton and John Cena obviously, but do you see any one else?

Also..........if the WWE ever came to their senses and decided to re-build RVD, do you think he could ever draw? :::knows the answer to this question::: :nono:

In terms of Christian, I think he's in a fine position. Orton is a main event guy now (although this program with Benjamin will likely hault that), and should be mixing with the top guys now. Christian isn't at that level yet, and in a sense he should take Orton's spot from last year. I said in another thread that they should have put Christian in a feud with Shelton (they could have some great matches and put each other over), and then give Christian some matches with guys like HBK and Benoit. He doesn't have to win those (maybe squeeze out a cheesy win over HBK at some point), but just going toe to toe with those guys would continue his elevation. This relates to Jerihco as well, because Christian now has multiple victories over Jericho, and the reaction to him by the crowd as a World Title contender was less than enthusiastic. Why? Because nobody takes Jericho seriously as a top guy. On the other hand, Orton beats Foley and you can see the fans see Orton in a new light. So Christian still needs a good year of working upper level mid card spots before he can get any kind of serious run to the top.

Great point about Orton/Foley, Christian/Jericho. :y: I think there was more "reaction" to Orton beating Foley however, because it was a much bigger upset. Christian beating Jericho isn't that big of an upset.

You make another great point about Christian taking Orton's spot from last year. Christian + Benjamin = boner :naughty: . Going up against HBK should also augment his status.

Back to Benoit: I agree that Orton shouldn't win the title yet, so he probably shouldn't feud with Benoit, and the only other guy is HHH. A couple of posts back you mentioned Edge being lame as a babyface so far, and I kinda agree. I think he's trying, but I just dont see him connecting with the fans like say Benoit or HBK does. To be fair, he's just come back, but you'd think after being gone so long he would be over like rover. Also being paired with Kane was another shot in the pants, but still, I dont think things are looking good. I like the idea of Edge as a heel, because then he could do something with him and Benoit. Couple of problems though; first I think they should do the RVD-Eddie friendship deal leading to a RVD heel turn on SD, so I dont think they should run the exact same program on RAW with Edge and Benoit. The other problem is that Edge has a book due out in November I believe, and thats not going to sell well if he's a heel. Whats more likely is that they save him as a babyface to fued with HHH in the Fall. So its tough there aren't a lot of guys for Benoit to program with outside HBK and HHH, which is why I'm sure HHH will get the title back, maybe even in June.

RVD + heel turn = Boner :drool:

I wouldn't worry too much about Smackdown being parallel with Raw. The WWE doesn't seem to care too much either. On Smackdown, they hook Jindrak up with Long. On Raw? Cade with Coach. Raw --> Benjamin is a face. Smackdown --> Hass has turned face (I think....I don't get SD).

Raw and Smackdown have a lot of existing parallels anyways, and so I don't think it's too detrimental to continue this trend.

As for Cena and Orton being on the same show, I dont think its the best idea. First, we dont yet know that either one of them can carry the company, we have suspicions but no real proof as of yet. Furthermore, if you take the two hottest up and comers and put them on the same show, it makes that show seem superior (although that already has happened), the WWE claims they want the two shows ot be equal. Finally, I think Cena-Orton could be a huge money match say for Wrestlemania 23, 24 or 25 (now thats long term booking!!). I'd like to see both guys dominate their brand for some time and then come together at some point to create the ultimate RAW vs Smackdown dream match. In theory thats one of the big benefits of the brand extesnion, creating aritifically dream matches. Will it work? Maybe maybe not, but its wirth keeping them apart to find out.

Another awesome point.

What would I without you CyNick. :love:

p.s. At this point in HBK's career, do you think the fans would buy into him being heel?

[Rock Bottom]

Yes, an HBK heel turn wouldn't be hard at all. I mean you'd still have Michaels fans, same goes with anyone really, but... He got heat when he superkicked Benoit to sign that contract on RAW. Then Benoit has been getting more and more over, and Benoit just went over Michaels with a submission in that Backlash match. Now if Michaels were to do something dick-headed, I'm sure the fans would have no problem booing him.

The reason I bring up Benoit getting more over, is because he is restoring an element to wrestling... Called making main-eventers tap out. We have been fed so many guys (Austin, Rock, Triple H, Michaels, etc...) that don't tap cleanly... I mean honestly, when is the last time you seen any of these guys lose a match to submission? Last time I saw Rock do it, he was a midcarder jobbing to Shamrock. Last time I saw Austin do it... Was... I can't even remember.

It's such a big deal now that fans are going to chant, "YOU TAPPED OUT," to anyone who does that's main event, basically because "no one taps out," and it pussifies them, in a way, in some peoples' eyes. It's an odd point, but Benoit's submission victories are going to get people behind him.