Are you buying Christian as a heel right now?

[Anybody Thrilla]

Sure the things that he says are heelish, and he's doing fine in that aspect...but I'm talking about the little things. Watching his match with Kane, he pretty much worked the whole thing as a face. I suppose it's hard to buy the much smaller man in the match as the heel, but he could at least switch his moveset up or something to include some dirtier stuff. Also, I think he could use a theme song change.

Thoughts?

[Anybody Thrilla]

It's confusing because everything that he's bitching about, he kind of has a point. He really has been repeatedly screwed. If anything, maybe Teddy Long should have become the heel.

[Testicle]

I mostly agree ABT. I think that he has been working as a face, his matches for the last 2+ years, while very good, are pretty formulaic and it seems like he is kind of stuck in that style. I think a few 'dirty tatics' may help. Also using the spear is confusing, because its so associated with Edge that it gets a positive reaction. Maybe he should stick to the killswitch / start using a new finish.

Although I do like that he hasn't changed his look or entrance music, because it just seems corny that 'Hey I'm a bad guy now, I need new music, or a new pair of tights.' Like I hate when someone turns and then the next day on RAW they have new black tights and some pre-packaged rap song ready to go, just makes it seem fake.

So far I'm not digging it as much as the 2004-2005 heel X-tain. I think he is so used to working face now that he is having a hard time, plus when you are a veteran you kind of reach a point where you can only be a face because of respect from the fans. Maybe he should be more a chicken-shit heel like he was before he left for TNA, its more believable for a smaller wrestler. I am interested to see where they go with it.

[Nicky Fives]

I think that WWE wants you to have a hard time buying him as a heel at the moment..... right now he's in the middle ground, not really gone full-on crazy heel just yet..... once he gets screwed out of the Title for good, then the true heel antics will begin....

[Emperor Smeat]

There really isn't anyone he is upset at except Teddy Long and the fans as the basis for his heel turn which is why he still wrestles as if he's a face but in his promos he's been attacking the fans. He hates Orton but more because Orton got lucky and the fans "conning" Christian out of the title by picking Orton and then cheering when he won.

I'd assume the original plans until Edge had to retire would have involved him turning on his best friend after being too jealous of how Edge always benefited more on his own than Christian did.

In comparison with R-Truth, he turned full crazy due to his best friend Morrison conning R-Truth out of his spot and then later the fans turning on him.

[Testicle]

I think that WWE wants you to have a hard time buying him as a heel at the moment..... right now he's in the middle ground, not really gone full-on crazy heel just yet..... once he gets screwed out of the Title for good, then the true heel antics will begin....

I agree with this from a wrestling standpoint, but as ABT pointed out his promos have already gone full-blown heel which makes it odd.

[Juan]

I think he's doing fine. It's a nice change from the happy-go-lucky shtick he was doing for like 2 years

[JimmyMess]

http://gamingring.com/news/~mike/Archive/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/tomko-superluchascommx.jpg
??

[MoFo]

Ya, was just gonna post he should have a bodyguard again and ham up the cockyness a notch.

Christian in 2005 was just about the perfect cool heel, dont think he'll ever top those heights but can certainly be better than he is now.

[XL]

I think that WWE wants you to have a hard time buying him as a heel at the moment..... right now he's in the middle ground, not really gone full-on crazy heel just yet..... once he gets screwed out of the Title for good, then the true heel antics will begin....
Agreed.

The story is only half played out, there's still time on it.

I'm hoping Teddy says that he doesn't get the title shot at MitB as Henry made the pin on Orton and instead Christian enters the SD MitB match and wins. He can really heel it up by taking advantage of a prone Orton to steal the title (or steal it back in Christian's mind).

Or, he loses the title match then takes out and replaces a beloved face in the MitB and goes on to win it.

I feel we've still got full-on, CLB, cheating-to-win heel Christian to come.

[Rock Bottom]

People are cheering him a little. CM Punk is also getting pops. I think some people are just getting tired of faces. Or more specifically, the same faces. Some crowds have just been dead lately. In order to get heel heat people have to give a shit about what's going on, or see something fresh, unless you are really, really naturally annoying.

Vicke Guerrero, Michael Cole, etc., just about anyone could get a face rub from doing something to them. Orton has a lot of fans though, so you can't explain it fully from that angle. But it's a thought.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm glad this thread is here. Watching SmackDown! this week, I was actually thinking that Christian is pretty much a face. It's not the way he wrestles -- I actually like that he's not suddenly a guy who cheats every match. He's a bad guy out of desperation and because he has something to prove. The fans have accepted the heel turn perfectly, and boo the fuck out of Christian, but it just doesn't feel right.

* First of all, Christian is fucking right on about everything. His foot was under the rope at Capitol Punishment, and he did pin Randy Orton on RAW. Also, he's beaten pretty much everyone else on SmackDown! besides The Undertaker. The most heelish thing Christian has said so far (besides him always telling the fans they don't matter) is when he was whinging about getting hit with the belt by Orton. That was funny.

* Randy Orton isn't coming off as too sympathetic in this feud. I do enjoy Orton's persona, and I like that the WWE haven't caved and changed it up and made him more "heroic." But Orton frequently kicks people in the head and tries to end their career. Christian helps Orton out, then hits him with a title belt to get his attention for a match and suddenly he's this massively despicable person?

* They still show the crowd during Christian's entrance like he's a babyface...

* He was the one who wrestled two matches on SmackDown!, and came up the winner...

I dunno, it feels like the actual heel turn is still coming. It feels like Christian is just a deeper, frustrated babyface, and he could turn face again at any moment. It almost makes sense if they do this, because there aren't too many big faces on SmackDown!, and Sin Cara and Daniel Bryan are arguably not ready.

Christian could cheat his ass off to win the World Title and then duck Orton, or something heelish like that; but it also doesn't seem to fit his current character. I'm actually wondering if Christian again loses to Orton, finally snaps and does something super heelish, before moving into a feud with someone else? Christian could be the guy who helps establish a newer face on SmackDown!, like Daniel Bryan -- helping him move up to the next level.

[chrisat928]

I don't buy Christian period.

He's terrible on mic, he's okay in the ring, and he should have never been elevated past midcard title status.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Terrible on the mic? Really?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I mean, granted if you think his scripted babyface promos are boring or whatever -- but since when has being clear, concise, able to emote and deliver in the best way possible "terrible?"

[Anybody Thrilla]

I would ask chrisat to tell us who he thinks is better on the mic, but I don't want DAMN iNATOR popping in here and saying something like "Vladimir Kozlov".

[BigDaddyCool]

Christians are faces not heels like those dirty atheists.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Reverend D-Von

[Tom Guycott]

A step in the right direction would be to change his theme. Even if he went back to the Waterproof Blonde version of this one. Also, the Freakazoid! shirt has to go.

[DAMN iNATOR]

I would ask chrisat to tell us who he thinks is better on the mic, but I don't want DAMN iNATOR popping in here and saying something like "Vladimir Kozlov".

Vladimir Kozlov. :shifty:

[DAMN iNATOR]

http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/images/3/33/Futurama_Fry_Looking_Squint.jpg
I see what you did there, ABT. Very funny. :|

[captaincharismark]

I'm glad there's a thread like this around. Alot of ppl assume Christian is to blame for being an unbeliveable heel. While working a face in ring style does make him look weak, it's the way he's been pushed that makes his heel persona suck. I mean, WWE has never really commited to making Christian a star. The one, and only time he's won a World Title was to appease the Edge sympathizers. Now that he turned and could be a badass heel, the WWE would rather make him look like a whiner or a spoiler brat than a winner. He keeps mentioning that he can beat Orton, but never resorts to heel tactics to win. He gets shot after shot at the belt, but is always made to look inferior. How can we truly believe he's a heel if he wrestles like a face and never becomes an opportunist? At some point, WWE has to sell him being heel and let him win in order for the fans to dislike him and cheer Orton on in a rematch.

I think bringing Tomko back in might give Christian the edge he needs in this fued. As a heel, he'll get more heat and hopefully would be allowed to use more heelish tactics. Right now I'd say I don't buy Christian as a heel, b/c if he wrestles as a face and uses no shortcuts to win, what's the point? The point of any heel turn is to work the crowd, and you can't do that if you don't commit to it fully and made to look weak by getting 100 title rematches. WWE has dropped the ball on this thus far, and it really shows...

[XL]

I couldn't disagree more with that.

I find this dynamic interesting. It's something different to your standard heel turn. I guarantee that people would bitch just as much - if not more - if he became a self-agrandising, chicken-shit heel cos we already have that in The Miz or a guy crying conspiracy every week like Truth.

Plus, would he not look even weaker if he cheated and still lost?

They want the belt on Orton at the minute but I'm sure Christian will get the belt back and he'll do it in an underhand way. Looks to me like this catalogue of failure and being forced to continuously prove himself will make him snap eventually.

[captaincharismark]

Yeah, but at some point, he has to win in order to make his heel turn credible. B/c at this time, he looks like a sour loser who needs shot after shot to get the job done. While his turn isn't your standard heel turn, it's interesting to a point. Seriously though, how many times can you watch the exact same story and not be bored? My point above was he needs to be pushed seriously in order to be viewed as a strong heel. As it stands now, he looks like a joke. If he cheated and still lost at least he'd be commited fully to his heel persona. How is that any worse than losing time after time? At least if he cheated or had Tomko helping him he wouldn't be viewed as a failure heel. IMO, he's flopping right now b/c WWE spends more time making him look like a weak whiner who can't compete at Orton's level and is one step behind him. Not exactly getting that badass heel vibe from that. Thus the reason I believe most ppl aren't buying him as a heel currently.

[XL]

The "story" of his heel turn isn't over yet.

[captaincharismark]

It's not over yet, but IMO it kills the "story" for him to lose over and over again. What is the point? It sure isn't to put emphasis on his heel turn, b/c it has been made to look weak and hasn't benefited him in the least. Which is sad considering he is one of the few good heels that can talk well and wrestle well. Maybe they will eventually use him, but the issue here is are you buying Christian as a heel CURRENTLY. And from the looks of the replies here, most here argee the answer is no.

[XL]

But he's not an out-and-out heel just yet, so why would people "buy" him as one!?

It's like saying "do you buy Miz as a World Champ?" weeks before he won it.

Let's not forget, Christian isn't being beaten "clean" here, he's not being jobbed out or squashed. He has lost a couple matches by an inch, he lost with his foot under the rope, etc.

[Taker it Easy]

Christian is like a successful version of A.J. from Tough Enough 2011.

Same personality type, dullish and fake.

If Edge had not retired where would Christian be today?

Plus he has the hips and gate of a lesbian/ dyke.

[DAMN iNATOR]

http://gamingring.com/news/%7Emike/Archive/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/tomko-superluchascommx.jpg
BAA-AAHHH??

(It's funny because his beard makes him look like a goat-boy...)

[Anybody Thrilla]

But he's not an out-and-out heel just yet, so why would people "buy" him as one!?

It's like saying "do you buy Miz as a World Champ?" weeks before he won it.

Let's not forget, Christian isn't being beaten "clean" here, he's not being jobbed out or squashed. He has lost a couple matches by an inch, he lost with his foot under the rope, etc.

Bro. He's a heel right now. I promise.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Bro. He's a heel right now. I promise.

Only marginally so.

[Anybody Thrilla]

No. Once you tell the fans that you don't care about what they think, you are officially a heel. There's no two ways about it. Maybe he will eventually become more heelish down the road, but he's a heel right now. Maybe they should have slow burned it a bit more, but they didn't. The trigger has been pulled.

[captaincharismark]

But he's not an out-and-out heel just yet, so why would people "buy" him as one!?

B/c he's considered a heel, thus he should act like one and be pushed as one. The whole point of turning someone heel is to perform as a heel and get heat. He's done a decent job of getting heat, but so far, no real effort has been made for him to be pushed as an all out heel. I don't know whether that's his fault or WWE's fault, but IMO his heel turn is a flop so far. How are we supposed to "buy" his heel turn if he looks like a tweener?

It's like saying "do you buy Miz as a World Champ?" weeks before he won it.

That's ironic that you compare Miz to Christian, b/c they have similar dillemas. They both are pushed weak and could be top guys for their brands. The main difference being Miz actually held the title MORE than 5 days. But, I'd say you could buy the Miz as World Champ weeks before, considering he won MITB. That pretty much guarantees a title run. So, I have to disagree there/

Let's not forget, Christian isn't being beaten "clean" here, he's not being jobbed out or squashed. He has lost a couple matches by an inch, he lost with his foot under the rope, etc.

Not being jobbed out or squashed? I'd say losing the belt 5 days after winning it(technically 2 days) qualifies as being jobbed out. While his matches with Orton haven't been one sided, he hasn't looked dominant in any of them. It sure doesn't help his cause if his character doesn't utilize all the heel tactics in order to win. The only remotely heel tactic I've seen him use is his feet on the ropes(and not used successfully to get heat either). The bottom line here for me is that unless he's pushed differently, he winds up looking more like a sore loser than a dominant heel. Look at Edge by comparison. Everytime he won he did it underhandedly or was an opportunist. And he also held the belt long periods of time. You also never saw a "are you buying Edge as a heel?" thread b/c everyone knew he was pushed properly...

[CM Punk DONT GO]

I like Christian. He is my 4th favorite wrestler in the past year or so. I think he needs to hit people with chairs more like he did when he turned on Edge the first time. The one man conchairto was the goods.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think the contract signing segment on SmackDown! between these two for Money in the Bank was pretty epic. Christian seems to actually believe he can beat Randy. But then when Orton said his piece, Christian handed it off to his attorney first and then hesitated before signing. There's doubt in Christian's mind, and that coupled with desperation are the elements that are going to drive Christian further as a heel, in my opinion.

I think the best booking at Money in the Bank, stemming from this, is for Christian to screw Orton over big time. People might be sick of seeing these two lock horns, but if the story is compelling enough, people will shell out the money for it. And besides, SmackDown!'s storylines have always been secondary when promoting PPVs. There's a certain safety to continuing this storyline.

[XL]

Wrestling fans no likey shades of grey.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Shades of gray are fine, but once you tell the fans you don't care about them, that kills any desire to empathize with the character, no matter how right he may be.

[XL]

Oh, is that the point we're debating?

I thought the issue was that he wasn't using the standard chicken shit heel character and dirty moves.

[KIRA]

Shades of gray are fine, but once you tell the fans you don't care about them, that kills any desire to empathize with the character, no matter how right he may be.

But didn't The Rock and Stone Cold do the same thing?I seem to remember them at various points telling off the fans when they were heels but popular nonetheless.

[XL]

That's a totally different issue.

[Anybody Thrilla]

All I'm really pecking at is that Christian is obviously a heel, but his character isn't resonating as such for various reasons.

[The Naitch]

he's the same CLB as he was in the early 2000s

[captaincharismark]

Oh, is that the point we're debating?

I thought the issue was that he wasn't using the standard chicken shit heel character and dirty moves.

I thought the point here was do you buy Christian as a heel. Him using the standard chicken shit heel character and dirty moves would further him as a heel. At least then he'd be getting more heat and not being a complacent half assed heel. B/c I personally think he's not getting over too well as a heel currently. His heel reactions were much better in 2005 when he was a CLB than today. I do like his character now, but it just seems to lack effort. Maybe if the WWE tried to actually push him instead of making him look weak, he'd be over more as a heel. And with Edge gone, SD needs someone who can be a dominant heel. Christian is one of the few who can be effective, but him being portrayed as a weak, pathetic, sore loser don't do him any favors character wise.

[XL]

I'll take this over a carbon-copy heel any day.

Either way, I'd bet on Christian cheating to win the belt at MitB.

[captaincharismark]

I think this version of him is more carbon copy. Mainly b/c he's stuck between not fully turning heel and not getting a strong reaction. I just hope since the contract signing went well for him, he'll actually win this time. Would sure make this fued more interesting.

[XL]

I think you're confused as to what "carbon copy" means.

[captaincharismark]

"Carbon copy" would be a cheap ripoff, which I think adequately describes his whole heel turn now. They need a replacement for Edge, so let's replace him with Christian. That would work, if WWE truly got 100% behind him being a top star. Obviously, Vince doesn't believe that...

[XL]

"Carbon Copy" means exactly the same.

As in, most of WWE's heels are "chicken shits" that cheat to win and tend to run away from the face. Or they're egomaniacs. Or both. And you often hear that fact bemoaned here on this forum. Now we're moaning that a guy isn't using those tactics to get over as a heel.

And honestly, I don't see any parallels between Edge and Christian as heels.

[captaincharismark]

Well, aren't you the genius. Oh, that's right, you're a poster on a wrestling forum, not a rocket scientist. Forgot for a minute and thought I actually cared what you think. My bad.

What you call a "carbon copy" has pretty much been the blue print for heels in the wresting industry since it's conception. To a very high success rate I might add. I get that what's going on with Christian is different, but it clearly isn't working for him. So obviously the majority of fans need to see that "chicken shit" or cheating to win to boo him. It surely made him more successful back in 2005 when his reactions were overwhelming and more appropriate for a heel. I hate conforming to streotypes as much as anyone, but in this case, what other option is there? B/c being that in between heel hasn't made him the face of SD yet,

And I didn't parallel Edge and Christian, I called him an Edge replacement. Two very different things...

[XL]

You effectively called him a Edge "ripoff".

Like I keep saying, I fully expect him to become the ALL OUT, FULLY FLEDGED CHICKEN SHIT, CHEATING heel AT SOME POINT.

This is called character progression. And it's fucking joyful to see it.

How many times does a persons whole character change when they become heel/face. Look at Orton, a guy that booted people in the head and tried to end careers as a heel, hugs Cena - a guy he had booted in the head and tried to end the career of - when he is forced to leave WWE. That's bullshit whether or not it's tried and tested/succesful/the standard for the industry.

God forbid we have a guy forced to breaking point by a catalogue of issues rather than just snapping after one incident.

[captaincharismark]

According to you, "ripoff" isn;t a carbon copy, so there really is no parallel by that logic. Effectively? Did I or didn't I? Can't say I did then didn't. Replacement was the exact word I used.

Maybe he will return to that, which he needs.

Character progression? I call it character destruction. It's one thing to build a guy forced to the breaking point. But, having him lose over and over doesn't ptogress anything, it bores the fans and makes Christian look inferior. Now, having him snap after the losses and winning the belt IMO would be character progression. The reaction he's getting only proves something is wreng with this heel turn.

[DaVe]

yay a semantics fight

[XL]

Looks that way.

[captaincharismark]

yay a semantics fight

I prefer to call it difference of opinion. Not really a fight if you discuss something. Fighting would be flaming back and forth for no reason. Ppl generally see things from their own POV, which is fine, as long as everything is discussed and on topic.

I personally don't care for the way Christian has been pushed since he turned heel. If someone sees something in it I don't, fine. Sometimes seeing an opinion other than your own gives you new perspective. I do think he still could be used properly, but as of now, I just don't think he's an effective heel.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Christian is doing fine as a heel. His heat has been tremendous. He's still getting signs and chants and stuff, but so many heels get that, too. CM Punk and The Miz are arguably the two best heels in the WWE today, and they get their share of positive reactions, too. When Christian cues the crowd to boo, they boo.

The only problem I see is that so much of this feud seems inverted. Christian seems more sympathetic than Orton, really. I'm not saying Orton should be sympathetic -- I like the way his character is a ruthless bad-ass and hasn't changed much since turning; but the angle is interesting because there are still those shades of grey. I'm sure there are marks for Christian, who really got into his journey to the World Heavyweight Title that want to see him win the World Heavyweight Title from Orton who kicks people in the head when they are down.

In many ways, that's a good thing, don't get me wrong. I like that Christian is slowly edging into a heel character. He didn't hit Orton with the belt and then suddenly come out to his new theme, titantron, tights, haircut, etc. He's the same guy that truthfully thinks he's on Orton's level. As XL said, the "catalogue of issues" is building with Christian, and either he'll lose to Orton, or he'll cheat his ass off to win the title. I have a feeling that the destination is going to give more meaning to the journey.

[Anybody Thrilla]

"Carbon Copy" means exactly the same.

As in, most of WWE's heels are "chicken shits" that cheat to win and tend to run away from the face. Or they're egomaniacs. Or both. And you often hear that fact bemoaned here on this forum. Now we're moaning that a guy isn't using those tactics to get over as a heel.

And honestly, I don't see any parallels between Edge and Christian as heels.

I think there are quite a few ways to get over as a heel, but Christian isn't really employing any of them. The fact that there is the "gray area" says it all, really. I'm not even saying that I dislike Christian's character. What I am saying is that for a heel, he's not being very heel.

[The Naitch]

Thrilla, what would you do to make Christian YOUR IDEAL HEEL?

[Anybody Thrilla]

I would have him rape Kelly Kelly in the middle of the ring.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Or at least threaten to if Teddy doesn't give him another title shot.

[screech]

I would have him rape Kelly Kelly in the middle of the ring.

That'll do it.

[captaincharismark]

I think there are quite a few ways to get over as a heel, but Christian isn't really employing any of them. The fact that there is the "gray area" says it all, really. I'm not even saying that I dislike Christian's character. What I am saying is that for a heel, he's not being very heel.


That was basically my point in a nutshell. There's nothing wrong with being a shade of grey character wise, but he's not a believable heel. All due to him not using any of the usual ways to get over as a heel. I definately like Christian, as he's probably IMO the best complete wrestler on SD. But, compared to his 2005 heel run, this one looks like a total flop.

[The Naitch]

I agree, he was great with Tomko. He needs some muscle for the rub, it would work both ways too though.

As a heel, he's the best when he has someone with him

Who would be ideal for the role? Mark Henry? I'd like to see that

[Shisen Kopf]

Christian needs God

[MoFo]

maybe Chris Masters, don't think hes doing much right now and he can do the 'comedy' stuff just like Tomko used to..

[Shisen Kopf]

Mason Ryan is the obvious choice becaise all he has to do is stand there and let Christian do all the talking. Also, who's with me that Chris Jericho and Christian would be the 4th greatest tag team in the history of pro rasslin since May 1995?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I agree, he was great with Tomko. He needs some muscle for the rub, it would work both ways too though.

As a heel, he's the best when he has someone with him

Who would be ideal for the role? Mark Henry? I'd like to see that

The guy that immediately comes to mind is Brodus Clay. The WWE seem to like the guy, and he's played an important muscle role before, heading into the World Heavyweight Title match alongside Alberto Del Rio. Plus, he's got a WWE Film debut coming up.

The problem is, Clay and Christian were sort of feuding earlier this year -- but they can do a spot where Clay says that Christian earned his respect, whereas Del Rio ditched him. Christian's given him a chance to redeem himself on SmackDown!.

[Anybody Thrilla]

maybe Chris Masters, don't think hes doing much right now and he can do the 'comedy' stuff just like Tomko used to..

I really like the sound of this, actually. I feel those two would play well off of each other.

[The Naitch]

The guy that immediately comes to mind is Brodus Clay. The WWE seem to like the guy, and he's played an important muscle role before, heading into the World Heavyweight Title match alongside Alberto Del Rio. Plus, he's got a WWE Film debut coming up.

The problem is, Clay and Christian were sort of feuding earlier this year -- but they can do a spot where Clay says that Christian earned his respect, whereas Del Rio ditched him. Christian's given him a chance to redeem himself on SmackDown!.

yes, I love this idea

[captaincharismark]

Christian needs God

LOL@Canadian Jesus:rofl: