IYO: Free music downloading.

[GD]

What is your opinion on free music downloading? Do we really need to download music illegally after the advent of services like Pandora and Spotify?

I have a very bias opinion. I buy stuff from iTunes and Amazon MP3 because I feel guilty. But then again there are some songs that you will never find in the online stores. And that is when you are left with two options, you either pirate them or purchase a ridiculously over priced physical format which isn't even worth it. I am feeling a bit lazy so I will contribute to this thread later :wave:

[D Mac]

I buy some and download some.

[Kane Knight]

I buy stuff from Amazon and eMusic (fuck iTunes) because I like to pay for my purchases. I still torrent some shit, though. Mostly stuff I can't get in stores or that is out of print, but I'm not going to pretend that makes it noble. Just that I'd probably buy it if I could,

Kinda like JK Rowling. I got a DMCA warning a couple years back for downloading PDFs of the Harry Potter books. I would have bought them if the cunt hadn't refused to put them up for fear of piracy.

With Pandora and such, you can stream stuff, but it's not quite the same. Nto sure about Spotify, not arsed enough to try. I'd rather have all my shit at my fingertips, even when I'm not in wifi range.

[dronepool]

I buy CD's if I love the band or like an album enough to buy it, but if I can get certain other album or songs for free.. why not? If I pay, I want to have something to show for it other than megabytes being used.

[FakeLaser]

I download most of my music.

I see pretty much every band that I like when they have a show though. Sometimes I'll buy their vinyls. So I guess I do buy albums sometimes. I buy merch. I buy DVDs. I definitely support my favorite musicians. I talk about them constantly. I post about them here and on my blog. I tweet about them. I share them with everyone. I feel that I support musicians way more than some dude who buys a CD at Wal-Mart every once and a while.

[GD]

Source: http://torrentfreak.com/why-most-artists-profit-from-piracy/

Piracy is not all that bad for musicians. In fact, research has shown that less popular artists actually profit from piracy. This can be concluded from, and is supported by several studies. Frustrated as they are, the music industry claims that they lose millions a year due to piracy, but is this really the case?

Two facts:

Album sales are declining.
75% of all artists profit from filesharing.
We will try to explain these two seemingly contradicting facts, and list three factors that may help us understand what’s going on…

Artists sell more albums thanks to piracy
Several studies have shown that most artists actually profit from unauthorized sharing of files. They sell more albums because people have the opportunity to download songs and entire albums for free. A study by Blackburn (2004), a PhD student from Harvard, found that the 75% of the artist actually profit from piracy. Blackburn reports that the most popular artist (top 25%) sell less records. However, the remaining 75% of all artists actually profit from filesharing. The same pattern was found by Pedersen (2006, see graph), who analyzed the change in royalties paid by the Nordisk Copyright Bureau between 2001 and 2005.

[Requiem]

I pirate pretty much everything. I don't have money to spend on CDs anymore, and I hate having a hard format as well. When I was a kid I loved album art, etc.. but I am all about the tunes now. Also, if I find a new band I will download their entire discography. If I heard a band and was going to buy their CD I would probably just buy one and I may not even give it a fair chance so I may never listen to the potentially awesome rest of their library. I still buy movies I like, especially to have on bluray these days because I love HD.

[GD]

Well said FakeRazor. I truly believe that digital music should be made free. And if the fans enjoy the artist's work, they will support him / her / them buy going to his / her / their shows, purchase merchandise and physical copies.

[Nicky Fives]

I download all my music online, but will occasionally pick through some discount CD's at Wal-Mart or something.....

[Kane Knight]

Well said FakeRazor. I truly believe that digital music should be made free. And if the fans enjoy the artist's work, they will support him / her / them buy going to his / her / their shows, purchase merchandise and physical copies.

Artists should have the right to compensation for your use of their materials.

However, I think it's particularly dickish to go suing people or banning them for such infringement. Even if one holds piracy as harmful, so is pissing offyour fans. A "pirate" may not be a paying customer, you don't know, but a sued pirate is far less likely to ever pay for your stuff again.

[Indifferent Clox]

i buy vinyl and download albums i cant find on vinyl or i don't know if i like yet

[Kane Knight]

i buy vinyl and download albums i cant find on vinyl or i don't know if i like yet

As if we needed more proof vinyl is for douchebags.

[D Mac]

Bring back 8 tracks!

[Kane Knight]

Bring back 8 tracks!

Ahhh...The "warmth of 8 tracks!"

[Xero]

Apparently cassettes really are having a resurgence:

It looked like the end of the reel for cassettes. The last car to ship with a tape deck was the 2010 Lexus SC 430. Sony stopped making the Walkman last October. This can mean only one thing: Cassettes are about to be cool again. Indeed, upstart labels like Crash Symbols, Volar, and Bathetic are putting out cassette-only releases. Indie rock favorite the Mountain Goats recently came out with a tape of rarities, and established noise-pop bands Joan of Arc and Of Montreal are also putting out their new albums on cassette. One of the tape revival’s leading evangelists is LA electronic musician and cassette label owner Matthewdavid, who helps host a monthly party called Top Tape: “A strictly all-tapes night gives people a chance to share music and found sound that they wouldn’t get anywhere else.”

The cassette underground even has its first star—Clive Tanaka y Su Orquesta is the nom de music of a mysterious multi-instrumentalist/producer who began sending his tapes to blogs last year. Bloggers loved the tracks enough to rip and post them. Now Tanaka, who has gotten raves from the Chicago Tribune, has a label deal, a publicist, and a flock of fans lobbying Coachella to add Tanaka to its 2012 lineup. Michael Kenny of Tall Corn Music, which released Tanaka’s album Jet Set Siempre No. 1, says besides appealing to ’80s mixtape nostalgia, cassettes “intrigue a younger generation who might see a piece of dead tech as a way to differentiate themselves.” Somebody better start teaching the kids how to wind tape with a pencil. They do still use pencils, right?

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/06/pl_musiccassettes/

[Kane Knight]

LOL. They stopped making them, so they're about to be cool again.

Can we just nuke the hipsters? All the energy wasted on bringing back the "warmth of cassettes" could probably cure cancer.

[Requiem]

^Agreed

Casettes were such a horrible form of media. Terrible quality, and god forbid one of them tangle..

[Requiem]

If you're going to listen to something vintage, just go vinyl.

[Rammsteinmad]

I still buy CD's. I'm a collector. I love owning the disc, the booklet with lyrics and pictures and the jewel cases all together on my shelves look cool.

However, I would only pay the full price for a CD for a few bands (Dream Theater, Symphony X, Savatage and Andromeda). With other bands I wait a few years until it's cheaper, or I buy shit on Ebay and second-hand shops. The only exception is if it's something rare or something I know I won't get cheaper elsewhere, but this very rarely is the case.

I do download a lot of MP3's though, mostly from sites like BeeMP3 or MP3Raid or whatever. But if I like the song enough I will buy the CD when I find it cheap.

[Rammsteinmad]

As a musician myself, I'm totally aware of how downloading can damage the industry, but as a fan, I'm also totally aware that music seems to be so expensive these days, that if you can get it for free, go for it. One of the major electroinics chain stores here in Germany has CD's for as expensive as €20. Fuck paying €20 for a CD, when it's available online for free (or in my case just wait a few years until it's €3 in the bargain section).

[D Mac]

Back in the day I used to record songs from the radio onto a cassette. Was that stealing?

[GD]

Source: http://mashable.com/2008/09/04/metallica-ok-with-piracy/

METALLICA drummer Lars Ulrich has commented on the premature release of the band’s new album, ”Death Magnetic”, via a French record store. A shop in Paris reportedly sold a number of copies of the CD this morning well ahead of its official September 12 worldwide release date — with illegal ”Death Magnetic” MP3 files making their way online by this afternoon.

During a guest appearance earlier today on ”The Woody Show” on the San Francisco, California radio station Live 105 (KITS 105.3 FM), Ulrichstated about the French leak,

“Listen, we’re ten days from release. I mean, from here, we’re golden. If this thing leaks all over the world today or tomorrow, happy days. Happy days. Trust me. Ten days out and it hasn’t quote-unquote fallen off the truck yet? Everybody’s happy. It’s 2008 and it’s part of how it is these days, so it’s fine. We’re happy.”

This is the happy face that Metallica seems to be putting on this particular leak, and I’m not buying it for even a minute. Consistently since their role in the demise of Napster, they’ve maintained an adversarial role with their fans that continues to this day.

If you remember, they were handed accolades in the blogosphere several months ago when they agreed to release their album free of DRM in digital format. Sean P. Aune wrote a post on his personal blog that at the time I thought was a little harsh, essentially saying the band was still clueless, and was nowhere close to “getting it.”

Their cluelessness a few days later was futher confirmed when they had their management issue takedown requests to all who reviewed the album based on invited advanced listenings.

I think our president once said something like “fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” With eloquence like that, you have to wonder, but I think even he would be a bit wary of Metallica’s true feelings on this.

I’m guessing they aren’t going to get involved in another ridiculous lawsuit or criminal pursuit against the pirates of the world, but mark my words: if Metallica’s album sales aren’t simply spectacular, look for an irritated and enraged Lars Ulrich coming soon to a press conference near you to blame all the pirates of the world for preventing Metallica fans from keeping his private jet fueled up.

[FakeLaser]

Cassettes have been cool again for a while now

dunno where y'all have been

not that I buy them or anything.

[GD]

I have an amazing cassette collection.

[GD]

As a matter of fact, you can sale them for a lot of money on Amazon.

[El Vaquero de Infierno]

I still buy CD's. I'm a collector. I love owning the disc, the booklet with lyrics and pictures and the jewel cases all together on my shelves look cool.

However, I would only pay the full price for a CD for a few bands (Dream Theater, Symphony X, Savatage and Andromeda). With other bands I wait a few years until it's cheaper, or I buy shit on Ebay and second-hand shops. The only exception is if it's something rare or something I know I won't get cheaper elsewhere, but this very rarely is the case.


This.

[Kane Knight]

BUYING USED IS STEALING!

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I generally download stuff, and I generally support the artists I like in other ways, such as buying their merchandise/going to concerts, etc.

Also, if a artist is smart enough to sell their music w/ bundles of cool stuff, like Amanda Palmer does, I'm much more likely to buy it.

The interesting thing is, I download way more music than I would ever buy. I'm not saying that makes it okay, but I guess I'm not really cutting into sales one way or another. For example, I downloaded Lady Gaga's new cd. There's no chance in hell I'd ever buy it though. I'm not saying that makes it okay, but some bands are never going to get my money, whether I download their music or not.

[Kane Knight]

I simply do not get the logic of "I don't like it enough to pay for it, so I'll download it."

Seems rather...Dumb.

Doesn't man I buy into the "file sharing is stealing" meme, or any such. Still, it seems kinda dumb to not respect the intellectual properties of people you clearly enjoy.

I mean, why else would you have that CD at all, ripped, downloaded, bought or stolen?

I know, I know, you're "supporting artists in other ways...." Generally.

Seems like completely self-serving moralising.

[Triple A]

I simply do not get the logic of "I don't like it enough to pay for it, so I'll download it."

This applies to situations where you would definitely not pay for the CD if that was the only option for listening to it. But, since you can download it if you want, "why not"

I don't get the assumption that every person who downloads an album would have paid for it otherwise.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I simply do not get the logic of "I don't like it enough to pay for it, so I'll download it."

Seems rather...Dumb.

Doesn't man I buy into the "file sharing is stealing" meme, or any such. Still, it seems kinda dumb to not respect the intellectual properties of people you clearly enjoy.

I mean, why else would you have that CD at all, ripped, downloaded, bought or stolen?

I know, I know, you're "supporting artists in other ways...." Generally.

Seems like completely self-serving moralising.

That's the thing though, they're not people I "clearly enjoy."

It's generally along the lines of "Eh, let's see if this is any good." I'll typically download it, and either listen to it, or stick it in my Itunes, which is always on shuffle, and forget about it. It never tends to be "Oh, I really want this cd, but I don't want to pay for it, so I'll download it." It's generally " I want to hear something new/different, hmmm, what's this."

I get what you're saying, but in reality, I see no difference between downloading a cd to check it out, versus going onto Youtube and listening to it.

The general scheme of things tends to be "Band I like = purchase stuff from, usually merchandise, occasionally hard copies of music, depending. Bands I could care less about = download music to give them a chance/listen."

But yeah, Triple A gets it. If for some bizarre reason I couldn't download music anymore, 95% of the stuff I download I wouldn't buy anyway. Given the opportunity, I'll download it and listen to it, but if that wasn't an option, I just wouldn't care. I wouldn't buy it, and I just wouldn't listen to it period.

If I stopped downloading music totally, I'd only buy music I really like, and then I'd use things like Last.fm and pandora for my other musical needs, since most of the time I just want something different than what's on the radio anyway.

I'm not saying I'm in the right, I know that it's wrong. Nevertheless, miscellaneous band # 7 is probably never going to get my money, regardless of whether I can or can't download they're music, because I don't like them enough to actually spend money on them. My level of caring pretty much stops at a few clicks, a single listen, and then forgetting about them.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Also, bands need to roll with the new technology. Instead of selling a 12-15 dollar cd, sell a 20 dollar shirt that comes with a download of the new cd. It makes a lot more sense to sell things people can't get for free with the music.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Also, out of curiosity, what do people think of Youtube then? It's essentially the same thing after all. Instead of "downloading" the music though, you can just listen to it on Youtube. It still doesn't help the artist in anyway. Is there really any difference though between downloading a song, and listening to it on Youtube, besides the fact that if you download it, you can take it somewhere else? The only real difference between the two is convenience.

[Kane Knight]

This applies to situations where you would definitely not pay for the CD if that was the only option for listening to it. But, since you can download it if you want, "why not"

I snipped the rest because it's irrelevant to what I said. But this is still a shite justification, Trips.

In fact, it's still the mentality I'd just mentioned. So you're answering my statement of "I don't get how you can rationalise this action" with the same action.

Uhhh....K?

[Kane Knight]

That's the thing though, they're not people I "clearly enjoy."

Then why do you download them?

It's generally along the lines of "Eh, let's see if this is any good."

Except those bands you like, who you've already spoken of reimbursing otherwise. Regardless, you can't seriously think that's even a relevant argument. This isn't 1998 when Napster was the "only way" to hear a CD before you buy it. There's plenty of access these days. And sticking shit into your iTunes library doesn't exactly sound like you're getting rid of it. So you're obviously not just seeing whether it's any good.

It never tends to be "Oh, I really want this cd, but I don't want to pay for it, so I'll download it." It's generally " I want to hear something new/different, hmmm, what's this."

That's good, since absolutely nobody is claiming that's the case. I'm puzzled as to why both you and Trips brought it up.

I get what you're saying, but in reality, I see no difference between downloading a cd to check it out, versus going onto Youtube and listening to it.

If there's no difference, why not go the Youtube route?

But yeah, Triple A gets it.

Trips repeated you pretty much full on. I didn't know mimiography showed understanding. Dammit, my friend's parrot "gets it."

Though you two DID knock down the same strawman, so I guess this is a male bonding thing or something.

If for some bizarre reason I couldn't download music anymore, 95% of the stuff I download I wouldn't buy anyway. Given the opportunity, I'll download it and listen to it, but if that wasn't an option, I just wouldn't care. I wouldn't buy it, and I just wouldn't listen to it period.

Which still doesn't answer "why do it in the first place?" I get the generic platitudes of "to give them a shot," but that seems largely unnecessary self-justification for behaviour you both claim does not matter and you wouldn't miss.

but for all that, you're going pretty far out of your way to justify it, even if you don't go so far as to call it a good thing.

And you wouldn't buy it anyway? So what? Seriously, that's part of the problem I have with this mentality. I will be explicit, downloads do not equal lost sales. The problem is, you still need an "and" or a "so" tacked on there to make it work for you.

So until you add that, stop arguing with me on a point I'm not making and disagree with. It'd be like me insisting that you were stealing by downloading and insisting that stealing is a good thing. IT's dishonest. Just stop.

Since the rest of the post just seems to cover that same dead-horse beating, I'll stop there.

[Triple A]

I snipped the rest because it's irrelevant to what I said. But this is still a shite justification, Trips.

In fact, it's still the mentality I'd just mentioned. So you're answering my statement of "I don't get how you can rationalise this action" with the same action.

Uhhh....K?

I wasn't trying to justify it. I was just saying that is what happens.

[Juan]

I wonder if people who pay for music online pay for online porn too.

[Requiem]

What point are you trying to make then KK?

Because 'to give them a shot' is a completely valid response. You're saying it isn't based on the fact that you apparently don't do that. Doesn't mean other people don't do that.

If I hear a song on the radio, or watch a video on youtube and I think "Hm that was pretty cool, let's see what else they have" and then download a CD or discography to try them out, that's exactly what is happening. I am 'giving a band a shot'.

I may not feel that the song I heard justified paying for their album, and MANY artists I listen to, I like to listen to an entire discography before deciding I like or don't like them. Couldn't tell you how many bands I have listened to that if I had based my entire opinion on them from a single CD, I would probably have never given them another chance. And if my only option is to go out and pay for that CD (I'm sure as hell not BUYING an entire discography for my first listen) and it turns out I hate them, I'm never going to give the rest a shot, and am going to regret spending that money on the CD that I now have a useless hard copy of.

That said, what point are you trying to make? Nobody is justifying being a pirate with that statement. Like I said, I pirate everything. It's illegal, and to some people, morally wrong. I just don't have the money for 99% of the stuff I download. But that's a totally valid reason for downloading something in the first place.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

The difference between youtube / the other methods of checking out music on the internet and downloading is simply convenience. I listen to the majority of my music at the gym. It's must easier to toss something onto my ipod and check it out on the go.

Anywho

Which still doesn't answer "why do it in the first place?" I get the generic platitudes of "to give them a shot," but that seems largely unnecessary self-justification for behaviour you both claim does not matter and you wouldn't miss.

but for all that, you're going pretty far out of your way to justify it, even if you don't go so far as to call it a good thing.



When I say I'm downloading something because I want to check it out/give it a shot, I mean it. That's how I discover a good chunk of the music I like. I don't understand what you don't get about downloading music to check out a band. I'm not trying to justify it, I'm not trying to moralize it, I'm just calling it like it is. Most of the time when I download something, it's to see if it's any good.

And you wouldn't buy it anyway? So what? Seriously, that's part of the problem I have with this mentality. I will be explicit, downloads do not equal lost sales. The problem is, you still need an "and" or a "so" tacked on there to make it work for you.

So until you add that, stop arguing with me on a point I'm not making and disagree with. It'd be like me insisting that you were stealing by downloading and insisting that stealing is a good thing. IT's dishonest. Just stop.

So what, your problem isn't with downloading music, but people who have a reason for downloading music? So it's okay to just argue "downloads don't equal lost sales", but it's not okay to explain why you're downloading something past that, because it's trying to justify an illegal/immoral act?

You just don't like people pretending to do "bad" things for "good" reasons?

It just seems a bit odd to me that you're taking the moral high ground not on downloading music itself, but on the reason behind it. Ultimately, it doesn't matter why people download music. The fact is, they do it. Whether it's to get something they want, try something new, or listen to it once and then toss it, they're still downloading music. It's a bit dickish to act like people can't download something because they just want to find new sounds/bands, or that they're really just saying that to justify the downloading. People do download music just for the sake of discovering new music, it happens, you can't deny that.

Also, I never said "I'm just checking out out, so it's okay" or "I wouldn't buy it anyway, so it's okay." It's not a justification. In fact, the "I wouldn't buy it anyway" statement was just an observation that I found interesting, because it's true. A large chunk of the music I download, I would never buy. That doesn't make downloading it okay. And before you ask "Well if you'd never buy it, why are you downloading it", it's to check it out. Lady Gaga is pretty much the perfect example of this. People ranted, I downloaded it to see what all the talk was about, I listened to it, I said "Meh", and that was it. Not saying that makes it okay, like I said, it's just an observation. If I wouldn't have downloaded it, I wouldn't have listened to it, and life would have continued on.

Likewise, I'm not pretending like downloading something is okay just because I'm doing it to check out a new band, or that it's okay to download all of someone's stuff just because I'll go to their concert, or buy they're merchandise. The downloading is still wrong. I was just explaining what I personally do.

So yeah, KK, I don't need an "and" or a "so" added on to "make it work for me." I don't need to justify it to make myself feel better. I was explaining WHY I personally download stuff, not trying to convince someone that it's okay because I do it for a certain reason.

[Requiem]

When I say I'm downloading something because I want to check it out/give it a shot, I mean it. That's how I discover a good chunk of the music I like. I don't understand what you don't get about downloading music to check out a band. I'm not trying to justify it, I'm not trying to moralize it, I'm just calling it like it is. Most of the time when I download something, it's to see if it's any good.


This. And in my case, money isn't the reason. It's one reason.

[The Rogerer]

I've just stopped listening to music, it's a waste of time downloading things because I might as well look them up on youtube. Listening to podcasts has replaced pumping songs into my head, and as a result I have a free stream of entertainment in that way. I wonder if paid music will continue to lose relevance for other people as well, regardless of piracy.

I can understand why cassettes are popular. They allowed control while enforcing limitations. I also found them to be a lot more robust that CDs, despite what you would think.