Christian vs Randy Orton Appreciation Thread

[Rammsteinmad]

I just want to use this thread to sing my praises for the Christian/Orton rivalry. I know the whole CM Punk/Cena/Vince/Triple H thing on Raw is the biggest thing going on in WWE right now, but the World title storyline on Smackdown is one of the best feuds we've seen in years, and I have absolutely nothing but good things to say about it.

Orton has really helped Christian step up as a legit main-eventer, and likewise, Christian has really made Orton step-up in ring work. Before this I was 50/50 with Orton, he was 'ok', but his matches always followed the same formula. Right now his character has really been spot on, and his ring work has really intensified. Christian on the other hand has been able to become over as a serious heel without the comedy, whilst still having legit reasons for doing/saying the things he does. Both men really bring out the best in each other.

What really got my attention regarding this storyline is how it has done something no storyline has done for a long time... it's maintained it's fire after a long duration of time.

After four months of the Nexus storyline, the IWC were already second-guessing and criticizing the writers decisions. Back in 2007/2008 most of the IWC's spite was aimed at 'Cena and Orton AGAIN?!'. But right now, Orton and Christian are preparing for their forth PPV singles match in a row, and I am as excited about it as I was the first time around. To make a typical Attitude-Era reference, it beckons to the days when Austin and Rock would headline PPV after PPV and never get boring no matter how many times we saw it.

We all bitched and moaned when Christian lost the title after a few days, but look what developed from it! I for one, hope this feud continues well after Summerslam... maybe the next PPV could involve a triple threat or a fatal-four-way, to spice things up, as long as these two remain the core of the rivalry.

An unexpected jewel that I never would have predicted when Orton won that first title match after the Draft, this angle may be overshadowed by the CM Punk stuff happening on Raw right now, but it is definitely one of the best, well-written and well-paced angles we've seen in a long, long time.

[CSL]

We all bitched and moaned when Christian lost the title after a few days...

no we didn't, that would have been the usual suspects ;)

But yeah, it's been good. The Extreme Rules (I think, the first PPV match they had anyway) match would probably have been the consensus best match this year if Punk hadn't gone from useful hand to one of the hottest stars on the planet almost overnight

[Shisen Kopf]

I appreciate good rasslin. This feud is good. The end.

[Anybody Thrilla]

It's no Trish/Mickie James, but it's going pretty well.

[Stickman]

Triple threat eh? Y2J should be the third win the belt then feud with cm punk and unify the titles for a second time.

[Aguakate]

Well, at least the uprising that was caused by Christian losing the WHC a couple days after winning it is a thing of the past...as is all the talk of Christian not getting pushed, not being used properly, etc.

[GD]

It's okay. I really want Christian to keep the <strike> belt </strike> championship.

[captaincharismark]

It's been an interest fued to watch and it has given SD better matches in the process. My only complaint with it so far is the fact Christian won the belt via DQ. Seems WWE is content to make Christian look weak one way or the other. Good to see Christian being on top, but it looks like he'll be a trasitional champ any time he gets a title run...

[Mr. Nerfect]

Christian is meant to be a slimebag heel, guy. It makes perfect sense he won the World Heavyweight Title that way. Personally, I find his current character really interesting. It's kind of annoying that he's going for the cheap heat, but I love Christian, so I can forgive it. Everything else he has absolutely nailed. Also, with wins over Zeke Jackson, John Morrison and Randy Orton since winning the title, they've actually done their best to get him over as a credible heel champion.

Personally, I want Christian to retain the World Heavyweight Title at SummerSlam. I think there are still legs on this feud, with Captain Charisma finding a way to screw Orton again, giving them a PPV break (perhaps Sheamus can move up and be Christian's next challenger), only for Christian/Orton to finally come to a head at Hell in a Cell. If any feud deserves that match this year, it's theirs.

[captaincharismark]

I agree the way he's "screwing over" Orton is an interesting approach, but having him win via DQ makes him look weak. Sure, it draws him more heat and makes him look sneaky and intelligent, but ultimately it craps on his character. I just find it weird he's portrayed as a guy that can't beat Orton cleanly. We all know he's as talented as Orton, if not better. Not to mention he owns Orton on the mic. So, claiming he can't win any other way than cheating the system is a slap in the face to him and his talents...

[Rammsteinmad]

In fact CCM, Christian having to find his own way to win is what has kept this feud alive and interesting for me. If Orton and Christian were exchanging clean title victories the angle probably wouldn't go so smoothly. Christian has wins over other people that keep him legit, and he got a clean win over Orton on Smackdown.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I agree the way he's "screwing over" Orton is an interesting approach, but having him win via DQ makes him look weak. Sure, it draws him more heat and makes him look sneaky and intelligent, but ultimately it craps on his character. I just find it weird he's portrayed as a guy that can't beat Orton cleanly. We all know he's as talented as Orton, if not better. Not to mention he owns Orton on the mic. So, claiming he can't win any other way than cheating the system is a slap in the face to him and his talents...

I think I see where the "mark" part of your name comes from now. Christian winning the title the way he did doesn't "crap on his character". It DEFINES his character. Heels don't have to be booked strong. They hardly ever are, actually. That's sort of what makes them heels. If Christian were a babyface and won the title that way, then you may have a point.

On a side note, I will say that NOW I am buying Christian as a heel. :y:

[captaincharismark]

I think I see where the "mark" part of your name comes from now. Christian winning the title the way he did doesn't "crap on his character". It DEFINES his character. Heels don't have to be booked strong. They hardly ever are, actually. That's sort of what makes them heels. If Christian were a babyface and won the title that way, then you may have a point.

On a side note, I will say that NOW I am buying Christian as a heel. :y:


My not liking Christian winning the title by DQ had nothing to do with him being heel. It was a good move for drawing heat, but piss poor in making him a credible champion. How can we accept Christian as a top guy if he's booked as the guy who can't defeat Orton cleanly? It's lazy booking for his character and yet another way of making him look inferior. And I beg to differ on heels being booked strong. HHH, The Rock, Austin, Taker, Kane, Big Show and etc were all booked as strong, dominating heels. Of course, WWE's track record as using Christian as nothing more than a transitional champion seems to be apparent here. I'll bet you when it comes to Christian defeating Orton cleanly at SS, it'll never happen. Which IMO is an insult b/c Christian is IMO way more talented than Orton. Having a character not looking weak has absolutely nothing to do with them being either heel or face. Funny how my knowledge of the inner workings of wrestling is always assumed to be "marking" rather than for what it is. In this case is WWE using Christian as a place holder champ for Orton. If Christian were face and Orton were heel and the booking was the same, I'd be bitching the same way.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Nah man, you are marking. When Triple H, The Rock, and Austin were heels, they resorted to underhanded tactics to win as well. Kane and Big Show are exceptions because they're FARKING HUGE and nothing but domination would make sense. Having Christian cheat to win isn't lazy booking. It's what's making this whole thing interesting, and it's not a slap in the face to him to be booked that way.

It's this simple:

The crowd is supposed to boo Christian. That doesn't happen when he wins a respectable contest in a convincing fashion. That would just make the crowd respect him.

And who cares if Christian is a placeholder champion? He's still a champion, which is a lot more than a lot of people have gotten the chance to say. Your "knowledge" of "inner-workings" is "bullshit". I'm all for some one playing the devil's advocate in a thread to generate conversation, but you don't have any legs to stand on here, my friend.

[whiteyford]

Taker, Kane and Big Show were all booked as strong dominating heels because they are all 7' monsters and booked that way regardless.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Right. Christian is a midget compared to a lot of WWE guys. I know wrestling isn't "real" and I know that Christian is ultra talented, but how would it look if he just started tossing Randy Orton around the ring, talking about how his heart doesn't pump Kool Aid?

[Rammsteinmad]

Is it possible to get a clean win in a street fight?

[captaincharismark]

Nah man, you are marking. When Triple H, The Rock, and Austin were heels, they resorted to underhanded tactics to win as well. Kane and Big Show are exceptions because they're FARKING HUGE and nothing but domination would make sense. Having Christian cheat to win isn't lazy booking. It's what's making this whole thing interesting, and it's not a slap in the face to him to be booked that way.

It's this simple:

The crowd is supposed to boo Christian. That doesn't happen when he wins a respectable contest in a convincing fashion. That would just make the crowd respect him.

And who cares if Christian is a placeholder champion? He's still a champion, which is a lot more than a lot of people have gotten the chance to say. Your "knowledge" of "inner-workings" is "bullshit". I'm all for some one playing the devil's advocate in a thread to generate conversation, but you don't have any legs to stand on here, my friend.


I believe most of this is stuff I covered in the "can you buy Christian as a heel" thread. I'm not marking, I simply hate the way WWE pushed Christian as a filler champion. I actually think him cheating to win is a good idea, but not when he never gets a pinfall victory. If he's pushed as a guy that can't beat Orton, who honestly takes him seriously as champ? I know I for one don't think using his character as a punching bag for Orton is a good idea. After a certain point, the fued will go flat if Christian never uses his heel tactics as a way to defeat Orton for a 3 count.

Like I said before, WWE's track record with Christian being pushed strongly isn't great. So, I'm not surprized when he's booked as a fluke champion. It happened in 2005, and it's happening again now. Which again has nothing at all to do with him being heel or face. I'd say it has more to do with WWE dropping the ball with him. As far as my playing devil's advocate to generate conversation, I do that for a reason. Most here call someone names or flame them if they don't agree with them. In this case is disguised as someone like you thinking you know more about this subject than me. That is funny to me since it has nothing to do with marking out and more about lazy booking.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Is it possible to get a clean win in a street fight?


That's deep, bro.

[captaincharismark]

Right. Christian is a midget compared to a lot of WWE guys. I know wrestling isn't "real" and I know that Christian is ultra talented, but how would it look if he just started tossing Randy Orton around the ring, talking about how his heart doesn't pump Kool Aid?

Again, it comes down to the size issue. Surely Christian finding clever ways to pin Orton couldn't be any worse Rey Mysterio beating every top big guy in WWE cleanly. That 80's way of thinking is total BS since guys like HBK, Benoit, Guerrero and etc have dominated all the big guys. Now who's a mark? WWE has brainwashed it's fans into thinking a smaller guy can't dominate a big guy. In "real" life, several smaller guys have whipped big guys asses b/c of that stupid streotype.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I believe most of this is stuff I covered in the "can you buy Christian as a heel" thread. I'm not marking, I simply hate the way WWE pushed Christian as a filler champion. I actually think him cheating to win is a good idea, but not when he never gets a pinfall victory. If he's pushed as a guy that can't beat Orton, who honestly takes him seriously as champ? I know I for one don't think using his character as a punching bag for Orton is a good idea. After a certain point, the fued will go flat if Christian never uses his heel tactics as a way to defeat Orton for a 3 count.

Like I said before, WWE's track record with Christian being pushed strongly isn't great. So, I'm not surprized when he's booked as a fluke champion. It happened in 2005, and it's happening again now. Which again has nothing at all to do with him being heel or face. I'd say it has more to do with WWE dropping the ball with him. As far as my playing devil's advocate to generate conversation, I do that for a reason. Most here call someone names or flame them if they don't agree with them. In this case is disguised as someone like you thinking you know more about this subject than me. That is funny to me since it has nothing to do with marking out and more about lazy booking.

Summer Slam hasn't even happened yet, you know. Who's to say Christian won't pin Orton there?

All that aside, you're blatantly rejecting the basic dynamics of heels and faces that have been a part of wrestling for...well, forever. It's the very foundation for what they do, and I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it's definitely not going to change...unless you want to watch TNA where everybody respects each other, but I don't wish that upon anyone.

Also, I know infinitely more than you. I have read many leather-bound books pertaining to wrestling, and my quarters smells of rich mahogany. Just so you know.

[Rammsteinmad]

One of the things that has kept this fued going strong in my opinion is that Christian hasn't beat Orton cleanly in a singles match yet.

[Rammsteinmad]

Also, I know infinitely more than you. I have read many leather-bound books pertaining to wrestling, and my quarters smells of rich mahogany. Just so you know.

Do you have WCW/NWO Thunder for the playstation?

[Anybody Thrilla]

Again, it comes down to the size issue. Surely Christian finding clever ways to pin Orton couldn't be any worse Rey Mysterio beating every top big guy in WWE cleanly. That 80's way of thinking is total BS since guys like HBK, Benoit, Guerrero and etc have dominated all the big guys. Now who's a mark? WWE has brainwashed it's fans into thinking a smaller guy can't dominate a big guy. In "real" life, several smaller guys have whipped big guys asses b/c of that stupid streotype.

If it fits the character, then sure. Benoit was an uber-aggressive, powder keg of skill and emotion. That made sense. HBK is a silly example. Do you remember when he first turned heel? He was cheating left and right to win, and it was fine. After many years though, he reached a legendary status where it was just accepted that he could beat anyone, and all of THAT came from his face runs. Guerrero cheated in every single match, heel or face, because that was his character.

Oh, and I can't even believe that I forgot this, but CHRISTIAN FUCKING PINNED RANDY ORTON ON SMACKDOWN.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Do you have WCW/NWO Thunder for the playstation?

And Mayhem.

[Rammsteinmad]

I said that above somewhere... if I recall it was clean too.

[Rammsteinmad]

And Mayhem.

Then your knowledge truly surpasses everyones.

(Loved Mayhem back in the day). :cool:

[captaincharismark]

Summer Slam hasn't even happened yet, you know. Who's to say Christian won't pin Orton there?

All that aside, you're blatantly rejecting the basic dynamics of heels and faces that have been a part of wrestling for...well, forever. It's the very foundation for what they do, and I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it's definitely not going to change...unless you want to watch TNA where everybody respects each other, but I don't wish that upon anyone.

Also, I know infinitely more than you. I have read many leather-bound books pertaining to wrestling, and my quarters smells of rich mahogany. Just so you know.

It doesn't take a genius to see patterns here. Christian is booked as the guy who can't beat Orton, so they'll have him lose to Orton to continue this fued. A good move to keep an interesting storyline going, but not so much making Christian's character look strong. Not to say Christian pinning Orton isn't possible, but I'd say it's highly unlikely.

And again, you aren't understanding my meaning here. My whole beef with WWE is pushing Christian as somehow inferior to Orton. It has NOTHING to do with the heel or face dynamic. If Christian was face and being used the same way, I'd still be making the same argument.

Lastly, I think it's funny you claim to know infinately more about wrestling than me. Why? B/c you've read books. Wow, really knocked that ball outta the park on that argument. Talk about not having legs to stand on...

[captaincharismark]

If it fits the character, then sure. Benoit was an uber-aggressive, powder keg of skill and emotion. That made sense. HBK is a silly example. Do you remember when he first turned heel? He was cheating left and right to win, and it was fine. After many years though, he reached a legendary status where it was just accepted that he could beat anyone, and all of THAT came from his face runs. Guerrero cheated in every single match, heel or face, because that was his character.

Oh, and I can't even believe that I forgot this, but CHRISTIAN FUCKING PINNED RANDY ORTON ON SMACKDOWN.

The cheating isn't an issue here either. It's not booking his character so he benefits from it. What good does the cheating accomplish if he doesn't pin Orton one on one for the title??? All it does is uphold the WWE view that Christian is inferior to Orton. Which is a laughable suggestion to me.

Oh, and by the way, that victory you are talking about was in a TAG MATCH and not a one on one title match. And they made it look like Orton's focus wasn't on Christian. Other than blind folding Orton, what other possible way could Christian look worse???

[Rammsteinmad]

So yeah, this is some feud right? :D

[Anybody Thrilla]

It doesn't take a genius to see patterns here. Christian is booked as the guy who can't beat Orton, so they'll have him lose to Orton to continue this fued. A good move to keep an interesting storyline going, but not so much making Christian's character look strong. Not to say Christian pinning Orton isn't possible, but I'd say it's highly unlikely.

And again, you aren't understanding my meaning here. My whole beef with WWE is pushing Christian as somehow inferior to Orton. It has NOTHING to do with the heel or face dynamic. If Christian was face and being used the same way, I'd still be making the same argument.

Lastly, I think it's funny you claim to know infinately more about wrestling than me. Why? B/c you've read books. Wow, really knocked that ball outta the park on that argument. Talk about not having legs to stand on...

You've made it pretty clear that it doesn't take a genius to ignore patterns either. Christian is being booked as inferior to Orton because his character is...well, inferior to Orton. There's definitely a hierarchy in WWE, and Orton's character is just better than Christian's character. It's not a knock to Jay Reso. It's just what makes storylines interesting.

If Christian was a face, you wouldn't HAVE to make the same argument, because he WOULDN'T BE BOOKED THIS WAY. How can I be so sure, you wonder? Did you happen to catch any of his run as ECW champion? A face run where he was beating everyone cleanly in hard-fought, respectable matches? That really wasn't too long ago, you know. Being a heel or being a face has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with it, and I can't understand why that isn't sticking for you.

.....and come on, bro. Did you really think I was serious with the book comment? Really? Seriously? I'm joking with you a bit. Yes, I disagree with you, but we can still have some fun, can't we? Rammsteinmad obviously knew that part was a joke.

[Rammsteinmad]

I was being serious :foc:

[Anybody Thrilla]

The cheating isn't an issue here either. It's not booking his character so he benefits from it. What good does the cheating accomplish if he doesn't pin Orton one on one for the title??? All it does is uphold the WWE view that Christian is inferior to Orton. Which is a laughable suggestion to me.

Oh, and by the way, that victory you are talking about was in a TAG MATCH and not a one on one title match. And they made it look like Orton's focus wasn't on Christian. Other than blind folding Orton, what other possible way could Christian look worse???

It benefits Christian's HEEL character to resort to HEELISH tactics to WIN matches.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I was being serious :foc:

Oh. Um. Me too. :foc:

[captaincharismark]

You've made it pretty clear that it doesn't take a genius to ignore patterns either. Christian is being booked as inferior to Orton because his character is...well, inferior to Orton. There's definitely a hierarchy in WWE, and Orton's character is just better than Christian's character. It's not a knock to Jay Reso. It's just what makes storylines interesting.

If Christian was a face, you wouldn't HAVE to make the same argument, because he WOULDN'T BE BOOKED THIS WAY. How can I be so sure, you wonder? Did you happen to catch any of his run as ECW champion? A face run where he was beating everyone cleanly in hard-fought, respectable matches? That really wasn't too long ago, you know. Being a heel or being a face has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with it, and I can't understand why that isn't sticking for you.

.....and come on, bro. Did you really think I was serious with the book comment? Really? Seriously? I'm joking with you a bit. Yes, I disagree with you, but we can still have some fun, can't we? Rammsteinmad obviously knew that part was a joke.

My whole point was that Christian being pushed as inferior to Orton in any context is a joke in itself. And I'm not ignoring patterns here. If you were paying any attention to Christian, you'd know he's been booked as inferior even as a face. What about his loss to Ezekiel Jackson for the ECW Title on the last ECW? Or his loss to Orton, 2 FUCKING DAYS AFTER WINNING IT??? The last I checked, he was still face during that time, thus I would have the same argument. I can't see why you are ignoring the obvious. Christian is booked as a shitty competitor on any level. Even in ECW, he was holding a mid card title and not a top tier belt. And now that he's in the ME, he's still being screwed over. Basically, you are talking semantics as far as I'm concerned.

And yeah you may have been joking, but from what I've seen of your views on here, you actually believe that to some degree. All your arguments reek of being egotistical and self righteous. To claim you meant that purely as a joke is a cop out...

[Rammsteinmad]

Is it possible to be 'screwed over' when you're holding the World Championship?

[captaincharismark]

It benefits Christian's HEEL character to resort to HEELISH tactics to WIN matches.

Winning and getting a pinfall are clearly two different things. How does he "benefit" from being called inferior to Orton on a weekly basis? If anything, it makes it that much tougher for him to be taken seriously. Even the way he won the belt is an effort to make him look like a joke of a champion.

[captaincharismark]

Is it possible to be 'screwed over' when you're holding the World Championship?

Don't kid yourself, WWE is screwing Christian over. They've never seen him as a star, and the way he's being used, it's apparent they never will.

[Rammsteinmad]

I dunno... two World Championship reigns is a lot more than Charlie Haas ever got. :(

[Anybody Thrilla]

My whole point was that Christian being pushed as inferior to Orton in any context is a joke in itself. And I'm not ignoring patterns here. If you were paying any attention to Christian, you'd know he's been booked as inferior even as a face. What about his loss to Ezekiel Jackson for the ECW Title on the last ECW? Or his loss to Orton, 2 FUCKING DAYS AFTER WINNING IT??? The last I checked, he was still face during that time, thus I would have the same argument. I can't see why you are ignoring the obvious. Christian is booked as a shitty competitor on any level. Even in ECW, he was holding a mid card title and not a top tier belt. And now that he's in the ME, he's still being screwed over. Basically, you are talking semantics as far as I'm concerned.

And yeah you may have been joking, but from what I've seen of your views on here, you actually believe that to some degree. All your arguments reek of being egotistical and self righteous. To claim you meant that purely as a joke is a cop out...

You know that Christian had beaten Ezekiel Jackson previous to that match, right? You also know that Orton beating Christian was to plant the seeds for his heel turn, right?

Christian in the top champion on Smackdown right now. I really don't know what else you're expecting. He has multiple wins against Randy Orton. Yes, they've all been conniving and cunning victories, but they are victories none the less. That is the ENTIRE point of this feud. Call me self righteous for realizing that, but that's what it is.

I wasn't copping out of anything, either. The rest of that post, I meant. That last part was clearly a fucking joke, and I don't mean to call you names, but you are pretty dumb if you didn't realize that. If you want to do it your way, I will be Lance Storm with you from here on out. I was just trying to lighten the mood a bit.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Winning and getting a pinfall are clearly two different things. How does he "benefit" from being called inferior to Orton on a weekly basis? If anything, it makes it that much tougher for him to be taken seriously. Even the way he won the belt is an effort to make him look like a joke of a champion.

Why does he have to be taken seriously? He's a HEEL champion. Also, does it not matter that he wins pretty much all of his other matches via pinfall?

[Anybody Thrilla]

I dunno... two World Championship reigns is a lot more than Charlie Haas ever got. :(

Give it some time. He'll be back.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Also, I know infinitely more than you. I have read many leather-bound books pertaining to wrestling, and my quarters smells of rich mahogany. Just so you know.

http://www2.wwe.com/content/media/images/Superstars/bio/4993612

[XL]

The crowd is supposed to boo Christian. That doesn't happen when he wins a respectable contest in a convincing fashion. That would just make the crowd respect him.

And who cares if Christian is a placeholder champion? He's still a champion, which is a lot more than a lot of people have gotten the chance to say. Your "knowledge" of "inner-workings" is "bullshit". I'm all for some one playing the devil's advocate in a thread to generate conversation, but you don't have any legs to stand on here, my friend.
Agree on everything here. (Also find it funny that ccm criticizes others for talking about the "inner workings of WWE", then does it himself)

My whole point was that Christian being pushed as inferior to Orton in any context is a joke in itself. And I'm not ignoring patterns here. If you were paying any attention to Christian, you'd know he's been booked as inferior even as a face. What about his loss to Ezekiel Jackson for the ECW Title on the last ECW? Or his loss to Orton, 2 FUCKING DAYS AFTER WINNING IT??? The last I checked, he was still face during that time, thus I would have the same argument. I can't see why you are ignoring the obvious. Christian is booked as a shitty competitor on any level. Even in ECW, he was holding a mid card title and not a top tier belt. And now that he's in the ME, he's still being screwed over. Basically, you are talking semantics as far as I'm concerned.
And you're NOT looking at this like a mark?

[XL]

And before you come in here with your "Look here's XL again, adding nothing to the topic", AbT has it pretty much covered and I don't think having two people tell you the same thing will make you understand it any better.

[Rammsteinmad]

Adding nothing to a topic is my gimmick XL. :foc:

[XL]

Tag Team?

[XL]

I've loved this fued from the get go.

Yes, Christian losing the belt "5 days" after winning was somewhat of a letdown but I was open to the idea of it going somewhere. And it did.

The matches have been great, Christian becoming more heelish over the weeks was good, I like the fact that there are shades of grey in the fued - Christian had legit gripes with the results of the matches/Orton isn't a goody-two-shoes babyface.

I almost feel bad for those that don't watch SmackDown, but they have the option so fuck 'em.

This angle is a true testament to waiting to see what happens before we bitch (in reference to Christian's short run/heel turn).

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Somewhere Ric Flair is sitting by himself in a corner wishing he could go back in time and be booked as a more dominant heel champion. Then people might have respected him.

But yeah this feud has been excellent. Was thinking Summerslam has to be the blowoff but having it end at HIAC does sound like a good idea.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

It'll be interesting to see what they do with these two once the feud is over.

Work their way up to Christian v Sheamus and Orton v Barrett maybe? Or Orton v Rhodes/DiBiase?

[captaincharismark]

Agree on everything here. (Also find it funny that ccm criticizes others for talking about the "inner workings of WWE", then does it himself)

No, I think that fans too often try to judge wrestling like they have some insider knowledge of how the business works. Hell, even I'm guilty of the same thing. It's one reason I think the internet has affected pro wrestling negatively. Every opinion is stated as fact and every egotistical fan tries to make it seem as though they know more about wrestling than the wrestlers themselves. Which I'm pretty sure is the reason wrestlers have such a low opinion of fans to begin with.

I also think ppl accusing me of "marking out" is a lame cop out. At some point, everyone does it. Convient to try and label me a mark, then hide behind the same premise to avoid explaining why you like something or someone. That is why talking intelligently about wrestling is next to impossible on a wrestling forum. Ignorant fans flame ppl and name call anyone who doesn't agree with them or mark out for the same things. All to appease their self righteous opinions and make themselves feel better about "owning" a newbie rather than discussing anything objectively.


And you're NOT looking at this like a mark?

Again, I say anyone who's seen Christian's WWE career has to notice they've always booked him poorly. He's always been made to look like a fluke champion or confined to a mid card comedy routine. It has absolutely nothing to do with him being heel or face.

You think other heels like HHH, Orton, and Edge were made to look inferior to their face counterparts? No, they always took advantage of their heel tactics and prevailed over their adversaries. While using a cowardly persona works effectively to draw heat, it also makes Christian look extremely weak. Especially when on a weekly basis we're reminded Christian cannot defeat Orton one on one cleanly. If you can't understand his booking is making his character look bad, then I'm wasting time and effort here....

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Bro, you're clearly a Christian mark. Dunno why you're so standoffish about it though. Being a mark is what makes wresting fun.

But you're blurring the lines between the subjective (what you want to happen) and the objective (what needs to happen). You seem to be in a position where the only way you'll be happy is if Christian is booked like s strong champion. And you're looking at it like that's the only logical option here. But it's not. It's just what you as a Christian fan want to see happen.

But what does Randy Orton fan say about this? Randy Orton fan says if Christian goes over Orton is makes Orton look weak. It makes the #2 guy in the company (no pun intended even though it's an awesome poop joke) look beatable. Randy Orton fan thinks the bookers have no idea what they are doing. Now Randy Orton fan thinks WWE is shitty and needs to go back to the Attitude Era and end PG and all the stuff Christian fan has been spouting for years.

Just try to look at this with a little objectivity is alls I'm sayin. And also it's ok to be a mark.

[Mr. Pierre]

I could see Orton/Christian at Summerslam having a really cluster finish. Interference by Henry, then Sheamus runs down and cleans house, meanwhile Christian picks up some sort of scraps to pin Orton. Then at NOC you have a Fatal Four Way to freshen up the feud with Christian going over yet again, and then you finish up with Orton/Christian in HIAC with Orton more than likely regaining.

[Rammsteinmad]

Also, not sure if it was just that certain city, or if it was just Orton's 'overness', but during that tag match last week on Smackdown, when Orton got the tag in and finally got his hands on Christian the crowd wents nuts. Really got me into how great this feud is.

[XL]

Bro, you're clearly a Christian mark. Dunno why you're so standoffish about it though. Being a mark is what makes wresting fun.

But you're blurring the lines between the subjective (what you want to happen) and the objective (what needs to happen). You seem to be in a position where the only way you'll be happy is if Christian is booked like s strong champion. And you're looking at it like that's the only logical option here. But it's not. It's just what you as a Christian fan want to see happen.

But what does Randy Orton fan say about this? Randy Orton fan says if Christian goes over Orton is makes Orton look weak. It makes the #2 guy in the company (no pun intended even though it's an awesome poop joke) look beatable. Randy Orton fan thinks the bookers have no idea what they are doing. Now Randy Orton fan thinks WWE is shitty and needs to go back to the Attitude Era and end PG and all the stuff Christian fan has been spouting for years.

Just try to look at this with a little objectivity is alls I'm sayin. And also it's ok to be a mark.
You clearly haven't been reading. CCM is the ONLY guy being objective on this whole forum.

[captaincharismark]

You clearly haven't been reading. CCM is the ONLY guy being objective on this whole forum.


Yeah, b/c you're so awesome sense of humor and brilliant posts add so much to every discussion.

Clearly, no one here thinks Christian is being misused, which I disagree with. Putting over the fact he can't beat Orton is another form of burying his character. WWE hasn't exactly done a stellar job of making Christian look like an opportunist. His character doesn't have to look weak in order to get over as a heel.

[Rammsteinmad]

WWE hasn't exactly done a stellar job of making Christian look like an opportunist.

Did you watch Money in the Bank?

[Innovator]

Yeah, b/c you're so awesome sense of humor and brilliant posts add so much to every discussion.

Clearly, no one here thinks Christian is being misused, which I disagree with. Putting over the fact he can't beat Orton is another form of burying his character. WWE hasn't exactly done a stellar job of making Christian look like an opportunist. His character doesn't have to look weak in order to get over as a heel.

Would you rather him try and be the played-out cool heel?

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Yeah, b/c you're so awesome sense of humor and brilliant posts add so much to every discussion.

Clearly, no one here thinks Christian is being misused, which I disagree with. Putting over the fact he can't beat Orton is another form of burying his character. WWE hasn't exactly done a stellar job of making Christian look like an opportunist. His character doesn't have to look weak in order to get over as a heel.

You still are in the thinking that the way you want it is the only possible option. And I don't know how to make you see this but that's just simply not true. The writers decided to take this direction and book Christian's character in this way. And most of us, even the hardcore Christian marks are just sitting back and watching some great television and enjoying what's going on.

Again, just because something CAN be done differently doesn't mean it HAS to be. And all you're doing by pouting about Christian looking weak is missing all the good stuff while your boy is WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION.

[captaincharismark]

You still are in the thinking that the way you want it is the only possible option. And I don't know how to make you see this but that's just simply not true. The writers decided to take this direction and book Christian's character in this way. And most of us, even the hardcore Christian marks are just sitting back and watching some great television and enjoying what's going on.

Again, just because something CAN be done differently doesn't mean it HAS to be. And all you're doing by pouting about Christian looking weak is missing all the good stuff while your boy is WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION.

There's a difference between not liking the way Christian is booked and saying it's the only option. Though I'm not a fan of his character now, I do think it's a unique approach. Although what it accomplishes as far as making him look like a strong and credible champion is debateable. I personally don't see why he has to be booked as a weak champion. Guys like HHH, Edge and Orton are good examples of heel champs that were cowardly heels, but dominating when it was needed(or in big matches where it counted). In Christian's case, it seems to me that his character is too often booked as a guy that can't use his heel tactics to gain a pinoff cleanly one on one with Orton.

Again, I do think it's interesting the way his character is being booked now, but at the same time I can't agree with it. If other heels can be strong heels, why can't Christian??? I know I for one am tired of seeing them put over the fact week after week that he hasn't beat Orton cleanly. I'm sure others agree though, cause the uproar the WWE Universe had once he lost the belt says to me that ppl care how he's booked. Especially when he gets shafted for not being the biggest guy on the roster.

[captaincharismark]

Did you watch Money in the Bank?

I don't really consider that using him properly either though. Yeah, he looked strong in that match, but even that undermined his credibility. He beat Del Rio, a guy that WWE has waffled on making champion a half dozen times. On top of that, he lost the belt two days after winning the belt. And now he's being billed as a guy who can't defeat Orton, as if turning heel gave him no edge in the fued at all. Which to me says they don't really believe in him as a top guy.

Might not be the popular consensus here, but I honestly think he could be booked a hell of a lot stronger. WWE has botched almost every instance of using Christian as a main eventer.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

So Edge, Triple H, and Randy Orton are your examples of heels. Now let's get two more examples: Ric Flair and Chris Jericho. Two guys who were ALWAYS chicken shit heels. Two guys who were ALWAYS booked to look like cowards who could only beat top faces by cheating. And you know what? They were fucking AWESOME. They were two of the best heels in the history of pro wrestling. And guess who cares about the number of clean victories they got? NOBODY

[#1-norm-fan]

If you would have told me that two guys would have a world title match on free TV followed by 4 consecutive PPVs without even having a "special" match until the 5th time they faced off, I'd say horrible.

But these two have me wanting them to find a way to go a 5th, 6th match for the title. This has been stellar.

[captaincharismark]

So Edge, Triple H, and Randy Orton are your examples of heels. Now let's get two more examples: Ric Flair and Chris Jericho. Two guys who were ALWAYS chicken shit heels. Two guys who were ALWAYS booked to look like cowards who could only beat top faces by cheating. And you know what? They were fucking AWESOME. They were two of the best heels in the history of pro wrestling. And guess who cares about the number of clean victories they got? NOBODY

I guess my whole point above was completely lost to you. My point was it's ok to be a cowardly heel, but also to be dominating when it comes down to it. HHH, Edge, Orton, Jericho and Flair are all great examples of guys that were booked properly. They could be chicken shit heels. but totally kick your ass when it was necessary for their characters. That's the element Christian's character really never got from a booking standpoint IMO.

I think you are misinterpreting my main beef here. Not that he's a bad heel, but more that WWE books him as a non threat to Orton(at least beating him cleanly when the title is on the line). Using every stipulation and loophole is awesome for drawing heat, but if it isn't used to set up a pinfall to retain the belt, what is the point? Otherwise, it's cheap heat and does little to make him look like a champion capable of being in Orton's league. Suggesting that he shouldn't even be wrestling Orton for the belt, which again is ludicrous. I just get tired of them claiming Christian isn't capable of beating Orton.

Him turning should have given his character more of an edge in this fued, but so far hasn't been totally capitalized on.

[Rammsteinmad]

None of the people you mentioned 'kicked peoples asses when it was necessary for their characters' when they were heels.

Flair ALWAYS got on his knees and begged for mercy. Chris Jericho had to cheat during his first title reign, and actually won it with help from Booker T. Triple H always had some kind of help from DX, Evolution or something else.

Of course, Christian can still 'kick ass when necessary'. He has won matches since turning heel, and has 'gotten the better of Randy Orton' in their matches, but he just hasn't been able to pin Orton clean.

This isn't making Christian look like a weak heel, it's booking Orton to be a strong face.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Why would turning Christian give him an edge? If anything, he turned heel because he's a whiny little bitch who threw a tantrum when the fans screwed him over. That's his character. That's what he does. And he's great at it.

Who the fuck is going to take Christian seriously as a dominating heel? He weighs 190 lbs and is matched up with the guy with the best look in the company. It is what it is. Just enjoy it.

[XL]

I hope Christian pins Orton at SummerSlam so that once again TPWW (or in this case ccm) looks stupid for judging a storyline before it's completion.

Why can't we just enjoy the ride? My favourite wrestler is WHC, I don't care how he won it/retains it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I believe most of this is stuff I covered in the "can you buy Christian as a heel" thread. I'm not marking, I simply hate the way WWE pushed Christian as a filler champion. I actually think him cheating to win is a good idea, but not when he never gets a pinfall victory. If he's pushed as a guy that can't beat Orton, who honestly takes him seriously as champ? I know I for one don't think using his character as a punching bag for Orton is a good idea. After a certain point, the fued will go flat if Christian never uses his heel tactics as a way to defeat Orton for a 3 count.

Like I said before, WWE's track record with Christian being pushed strongly isn't great. So, I'm not surprized when he's booked as a fluke champion. It happened in 2005, and it's happening again now. Which again has nothing at all to do with him being heel or face. I'd say it has more to do with WWE dropping the ball with him. As far as my playing devil's advocate to generate conversation, I do that for a reason. Most here call someone names or flame them if they don't agree with them. In this case is disguised as someone like you thinking you know more about this subject than me. That is funny to me since it has nothing to do with marking out and more about lazy booking.

Christian's actually been booked really strong recently. He got to hand Sin Cara his first loss, he beat Sheamus, he's beaten Morrison and he's beaten Orton in multiple tag team matches. Plus, he has that shady loss to his name at Capitol Punishment.

Captain Charisma has essentially been the heel you want him to be -- he has proven time and time again that he's got the goods (even as a heel) inside the ring. Booker T, the super face commentator, even agrees that he's one of the most talented guys in the company -- and that's a direct line to intended mark thinking.

As many have already informed you, the WWE are protecting Randy Orton as a top babyface, and really putting him through the wringer en route to the World Heavyweight Title. That's where the money is, and the WWE have done a fantastic job of getting your average fan to believe that Orton can kill Christian -- but that slimy dude somehow finds a way to stay champion.

For some reason, I didn't even think of the possibility that Sheamus and Henry could get involved in the match, and that Christian retains leading to the suggested Fatal 4-Way at Night of Champions. Awesome.

[XL]

Noid, you're talking to a brick wall, mate.

[captaincharismark]

Why would turning Christian give him an edge? If anything, he turned heel because he's a whiny little bitch who threw a tantrum when the fans screwed him over. That's his character. That's what he does. And he's great at it.

Who the fuck is going to take Christian seriously as a dominating heel? He weighs 190 lbs and is matched up with the guy with the best look in the company. It is what it is. Just enjoy it.

In most cases, a wrestler turning heel gives them an advantage in the fued. His character is the cowardly, whiny guy, but that doesn't mean he has to be booked as inferior to Orton. To me, Christian being frustrated after losing the belt was the perfect opportunity to set him up to use dirty tactics to pin Orton once and for all. Especially after his heel turn started off so well with him nailing Orton with the WHC. As far as I'm concerned, not taking full advantage of him utilizing dirt tactics to pin Orton for the belt is lazy booking. Maybe not popular consensus here, but it's my opinion on it. It's not like I'm trying to change ppl's opinion. Which is ironic, since that seems to be what others are trying to do with me here...

Again, I think it's the streotypical 80's way of thinking to say cause he's 190 lbs, he can't dominate someone in a match. The size issue is always an easy excuse to book him shitty. Funny how no one ever claimed HBK, Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Benoit or Eddie Guerrero couldn't be believable dominating forces. All were relatively similar in weight and height to Christian, but all were built up well despite their not being huge guys.

With size, it's not as though he has to toss Orton around like a ragdoll to be a dominating heel. Him utilizing dirty tactics and underhanded manuevers would be all the physicality he would need to be believable. Not like he has to destroy every big guy in WWE to be a convincing dominating heel.

[captaincharismark]

I hope Christian pins Orton at SummerSlam so that once again TPWW (or in this case ccm) looks stupid for judging a storyline before it's completion.

Why can't we just enjoy the ride? My favourite wrestler is WHC, I don't care how he won it/retains it.

It's very ignorant to say you hope Christian wins via pinfall just b/c you don't agree with me. And I'm judging this based on what we have seen so far. Once again though, simply b/c I don't mark out like everyone else for his character being booked badly, ppl react childishly.

Maybe you wanna mark out for everything WWE does, but if I think something sucks, I'm not gonna change my opinion to appease a few morons...

[Supreme Olajuwon]

So wait, having Christian bait Orton into getting himself disqualified so Christian wins the title is lazy booking, but if Christian would've just cheated and pinned Orton like we've seen millions of times before, that would've been ok?

And why in the world are you throwing out names like HBK, Bret and Owen who all were booked like cowards when they were heels. Owen Hart pretended to have a broken arm so he could wrestle with a cast on for fucks sake. Those guys were booked strong when they were faces. Christian was booked strong when he was a face too. I really have no idea what your complaint is here because Christian is being booked the exact same way as all of those guys.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Also can you drop the whole Me Against the World thing you've got going on please? It's really slowing down the conversation.

[CSL]

srsly, nobody cares about your imaginary stance that only you have while everybody else apparently blindly marks for stuff, you're far from the first to post that same kind of stuff on these forums when they have their daft posts challenged

[captaincharismark]

So wait, having Christian bait Orton into getting himself disqualified so Christian wins the title is lazy booking, but if Christian would've just cheated and pinned Orton like we've seen millions of times before, that would've been ok?

Yeah, it would've made more sense with him turning heel. I'm assuming the whole reason Christian was turned was b/c in character he was frustrated that Orton beat him so easily. So, cheating to pin Orton makes a hell of alot more logical sense than winning via DQ. Otherwise, what was the point? If turning him gives him no edge and makes him look weaker, then it doesn't compute for me.

And why in the world are you throwing out names like HBK, Bret and Owen who all were booked like cowards when they were heels. Owen Hart pretended to have a broken arm so he could wrestle with a cast on for fucks sake. Those guys were booked strong when they were faces. Christian was booked strong when he was a face too. I really have no idea what your complaint is here because Christian is being booked the exact same way as all of those guys.

Again, apparently my whole point here was lost to you. I threw those names out b/c you seem to be hung up on the size issue. None of the guys were huge, but were convincing when it came to being believably dominating against big guys. Saying that b/c Christian is small, he can't be a dominating heel is wrong IMO. There are ways of booking around that. The guys I listed were examples of smaller guys that were booked alot better than Christian....

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Supreme, clearly you're just marking out for everything WWE is doing.

[captaincharismark]

Also can you drop the whole Me Against the World thing you've got going on please? It's really slowing down the conversation.

Can you kiss my ass? I say that b/c guys like you seem to have a real problem with difference of opinion. Simply since I don't conform to what everyone else thinks here, ppl claim I don't know what I'm talking about. That is fucking laughable to me, b/c all I have done is point out the reasons I disagree with his character's booking. It's the main reason talking intelligently here is next to impossible. Marks here think it's ok to spread their propaganda, but when someone else disagrees, they resort to childish behavior. Like name calling or flaming to appease their egos and self righteous attitude. I never try to change ppl's opinions, but appatently others here take issue with me not jumping on the bandwagon of popular opinion...

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Apparently I watched a bunch of doctored matches in the 90s because I don't remember heel HBK and heel Owen Hart ever looking strong against bigger opponents. Maybe they got some offense in during matches but they only won against big names by cheating. That doesn't make them strong at all.

FILL ME IN.

[CSL]

Can you kiss my ass? I say that b/c guys like you seem to have a real problem with difference of opinion. Simply since I don't conform to what everyone else thinks here, ppl claim I don't know what I'm talking about. That is fucking laughable to me, b/c all I have done is point out the reasons I disagree with his character's booking. It's the main reason talking intelligently here is next to impossible. Marks here think it's ok to spread their propaganda, but when someone else disagrees, they resort to childish behavior. Like name calling or flaming to appease their egos and self righteous attitude. I never try to change ppl's opinions, but appatently others here take issue with me not jumping on the bandwagon of popular opinion...

once again, it has nothing to do with your difference of opinion/bandwagon jumping/people being sheep and so forth. These are figments of your imagination. There are plenty of people here that disagree on things, I personally disagree with people quite often only I don't backup my opinions and thoughts with nonsensical posts that consistently miss the point of even the most basic elements of pro wrestling and so forth. But as is always the case with posters like yourself, I guess everybody else is wrong or just doesn't get it and they're just ganging up on you because they don't like reading what you have to say and so forth.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Can you kiss my ass? I say that b/c guys like you seem to have a real problem with difference of opinion. Simply since I don't conform to what everyone else thinks here, ppl claim I don't know what I'm talking about. That is fucking laughable to me, b/c all I have done is point out the reasons I disagree with his character's booking. It's the main reason talking intelligently here is next to impossible. Marks here think it's ok to spread their propaganda, but when someone else disagrees, they resort to childish behavior. Like name calling or flaming to appease their egos and self righteous attitude. I never try to change ppl's opinions, but appatently others here take issue with me not jumping on the bandwagon of popular opinion...

Will you relax? This is not worth getting worked up about. You're allowed to have an opinion, just like other people are allowed to have opinions that disagree with you.

Lots of people have unpopular opinions on here. Heck, I remember when that Iginfest guy went on a huge rant a few years ago because he wanted the Headbangers to be pushed as the next Road Warriors. But he didn't act like this when people disagreed with him. He moved on. Now hes a halfway decent poster. And you can be too. Just relax and have fun.

[CSL]

Well now I feel like Saddam Hussein you big fat diplomat :(

[Innovator]

Jesus Christ this thread.

[XL]

WILL YOU PEOPLE PLEASE BE OBJECTIVE!!

[Anybody Thrilla]

My keyboard is a pipe bomb.

[Skippord]

Christian should defeat every WWE superstar in one night via Killswitch

only then can I take him seriously as World Champion

[Mr. Nerfect]

"Beatability" is also great from a marketing point of view. If people don't think your heel champion can be defeated by the babyface you are building up, then they will won't invest interest in the product. That's why The Miz made such a great heel champion earlier this year. Also, I would argue that this why Triple H made such a shitty heel champion in 2003 (note: I'm not saying shitty performer). He just beat everybody. Invest your time in Booker T? Rob Van Dam? Kane? Don't waste your time -- Triple H is the best; but you're meant to boo him. Although, I will say that it made it awesome when Chris Benoit finally did make Triple H tap-out in the main event of WrestleMania XX.

But if Christian defeated Randy Orton cleanly, he just wouldn't be a heel. He'd be the babyface in this feud. He'd have valid points, and he'd be the better wrestler. The intrigue and Christian's heel character itself comes from his doubt in himself -- despite him constantly claiming that he can beat Orton. I also guarantee that when Christian turns babyface again, he'll simply realise that he doesn't need to cheat to be one of the best, and he'll start dominating people with his abilities again, not only mid-match, but as a closer, as well.

Christian's not a monster heel, and it's fair enough you want to see him as a monster heel that uses his abilities to destroy people. Something like that might work for Daniel Bryan when he turns. But Captain Charisma's character evolution has made perfect sense. The fans did vote Orton to be his opponent five days after a hellacious Ladder Match (giving him a reason to hate the people), and he has had legitimate grips with Orton's victories over him (and he's been a manipulative little cunt about them).

Sorry to break it to you, though: Orton is winning this feud. Don't bitch when the title change happens, because it's good business. Orton got "cheated" out of his World Title, and he has to jump through Christian's hoops to get it back. That's the storyline this feud will take, and the storyline it should take. Otherwise you're just turning Christian into Triple H 2.0. Eventually people need to be rewarded by investing in Christian's beatability. I don't think SummerSlam is the right time for that, for the record -- but it wouldn't surprise me. The WWE may want an early pay-off. I do think that Christian escaping with the title in a weasel-like method after Mark Henry and Sheamus get involved (as someone suggested) would make perfect sense, though, and not scare people away from SmackDown!. In fact, I think it would generate an interesting four-way feud.

[XL]

I'd kinda like the fued to be puton the back-burner post-SummerSlam, Have Christian retain through some shenanigans and move on to a short programme with another guy whilst Orton has to "earn another shot". Then come back to it at Hell In A Cell.

They need to do something to elongate the fued if they wish to keep it going.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I agree with Noid on the 'beatability' factor. It's like the opposite of "Cena Wins".

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'd kinda like the fued to be puton the back-burner post-SummerSlam, Have Christian retain through some shenanigans and move on to a short programme with another guy whilst Orton has to "earn another shot". Then come back to it at Hell In A Cell.

They need to do something to elongate the fued if they wish to keep it going.

Originally I was thinking Sheamus vs. Christian, but since Night of Champions features all the championships -- they really like to squeeze big names all over the place. The Fatal 4-Way concept of Christian defending against Sheamus, Henry & Orton makes perfect sense. Christian can continue to claim that Teddy Long is against him; Sheamus can get his crack as a main event face; Henry can get his World Title shot; and Orton stays on PPV without being relegated to an IC Title match against Cody Rhodes, or something.

Christian can retain there, and that would be quite the solid title reign by the time that Hell in a Cell rocks around. Orton wins there with a punt, and Christian loses the World Heavyweight Title and is stretchered off. Orton gets your standard fare title reign while Christian sells the punt.

[XL]

I'd be happy with that...as long as Christian destroys all 3 of his opponents and pins them simultaneously. :shifty:

[Mr. Nerfect]

In my perfect world, it would be Christian helping Chris Jericho win the World Heavyweight Title. Vitamin C not re-united, but as separate entities that just happen to both hate Randy Orton (and each other).

Tell me that Chris Jericho defending the World Heavyweight Title against Randy Orton and Christian at Survivor Series would not be an interesting match.