You know, what CM Punk is doing right now...

[Anybody Thrilla]

...isn't really that different from what Vince Russo was doing towards the end of WCW.

Just saying.

[Shaved Monkey]

Yeah, the big difference in this case is that Punk isn't making all kinds of references that nobody will understand and when he does use something a bit more esoteric he tends to explain what he's talking about.

[Nowhere Man]

Not to mention Punk is an actual wrestler, so all the things he says eventually build-up to a match.

[Mr. Pierre]

Punk is doing it in a much better way though, obviously. Instead of saying "Cena, you're booked like Superman to beat everyone", he says "You've been given countless opportunities". He's thankfully smart enough not to come out and say that the outcome of the matches are pre-determined and it's not a competition, unlike Russo and everyone else in WCW at the time.

[Xero]

The difference is that, while what he's saying works on people who understand where he's coming from, he does it in a way that it doesn't come across as being lost on casual fans. Casual fans can relate, and smarter fans who get the references get it on another level. So it's fine.

As said, if he was saying how everything is pre-determined and that he's being booked this way, it would be pretty terrible. But he's not, and it works on multiple levels. So it is the same but still very, very different. Honestly, this is the way inside stuff SHOULD be done. Not the Russo way where everyone is confused as to WTF they're referencing and you're beaten over the head about how something is "real".

Also, Punk ALWAYS brings it back to the title. While what Punk is saying is "inside" stuff to a degree (and true), it's always been about the title and the pride that comes with walking out with the championship, whether at MITB or SummerSlam. If this were Russo, the titles would be props, not the centerpiece of the angle.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Russo's stuff was stupid. It was so forced. It wasn't organic at all. Like who was Russo shooting against? He was in charge. He wasn't playing off anybody.

[Tom Guycott]

Also, CM Punk isn't blowing everything up, stripping titles, and resetting the main event picture with other random people out of the blue.

[Anybody Thrilla]

What if Punk just came out for the Summerslam match and laid down in the middle of the ring, a la Jeff Jarrett?

[Jordan]

I see your point Thrilla but disagree, Russo' shoot was for his own personal anger where as Punk's is more legit in the mainstream sense, and he backs it up with entertainment where as Russo just offered something worse in replacement.

[Skippord]

depends on if he cut a sick promo about how Hulk Hogan is a faggot afterwards

[Jordan]

What if Punk just came out for the Summerslam match and laid down in the middle of the ring, a la Jeff Jarrett?

Nobody would like that.

And not in the "good heel/Roddy Piper" way, more in the Vince Russo end of WCW/David Arquette winning the WCW title way.

[Skippord]

also Mark Madden isn't involved, so that helps

[#BROKEN Hasney]

All in the execution.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I see your point Thrilla but disagree, Russo' shoot was for his own personal anger where as Punk's is more legit in the mainstream sense, and he backs it up with entertainment where as Russo just offered something worse in replacement.

Punk is naturally more entertaining, but was his original contract dispute not based on something selfish?

I mean, I guess I really don't know the actual backstage details, but it's possible that Punk's frustration turned into a thing of beauty, whilst Russo's turned into a bucket of doo doo.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Really, it's a testament to Punk's talent, I suppose. He seems to "get" wrestling more than Russo did, but it just makes you wonder what might have happened if Russo were a little better at...doing things. Thinking outside the box is one thing, but re-inventing the wheel is another.

[Jordan]

Yeah man, I'm still disappointed with what Russo did with WCW too. :(

[Jordan]

And since Russo was such big influence as a writer and character (either good or bad) there is no way his WCW angles didn't influence CM Punk subconsciously when he was a viewer.

[Anybody Thrilla]

It's true. Without Russo, there would be no CM Punk.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Also, my account has not been hacked by TNARick.

[Disco Apocalypse]

The message in the bottle is the same, the difference is the vessel.

Russo was the melted plastic bottle that washed up as garbage on the shore of WCW mediocrity.

Punk is the well designed bottle that ensures that the message not only gets there, but gets there in style.

Russo...

http://www.thomasnet.com/articles/image/plastics-rubber/plastic-bottle-crushed.jpg

Punk...

http://en.shiwaiyuan.com/assets/images/lifestyle/champagne%20images/Louis-Roederer-Cristal-Champagne-2000-Gift-Box.jpg

[Disco Apocalypse]

:nono:

What was I thinking...

http://whitecrane.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345161a069e20120a632fab0970c-800wi

[Rammsteinmad]

Another factor is the internet. It would seem logical that there are more internet fans in 2011 than there were in 2001, so a lot of the behind-the-scenes references probably make more sense today than they did ten years ago.

If Punk had said all his 'you have 'yes men' like John Lauranaitis' ten years ago, I wouldn't have had a clue what he was talking about.

[Tom Guycott]

In that respect, Ramm, Matt Hardy was way ahead of his time. Throw out the fact that he exposed himself as a serious douche nozzle and has become the TPWW whipping boy: Matt had been trying to get himself over via the internet since the days of AOL. Some of his "antics" were pre-Bash Russo, which made it even more obscure. Wasn't until the Lita/Edge mess years later until it gained any kind of steam, and even then, it wasn't nearly the impact that someone like Zack Ryder has now.

Back to Russo, other things were kind of in play too... like the fact that even thereabouts 2001, there was still this idea that you were supposed to protect kayfabe, and he just 100% flew in the face of that. Now, even a vast majority of casuals know it's scripted, but the thing is, they don't care. They accept the "wrestling universe" as it is instead of thinking hardcore wrestling is exactly the same as MMA.

The best comparison I can draw on Russo in this respect is something I once heard about what Kanye West said about Bush during the whole Katrina aftermath. They said "...you knew he had the platform and wanted to say something profound, but, what came out was- not so much."

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Russo were as good on the mic as someone like CM Punk or Steve Austin (in knowing what and what not to say while still voicing his displeasure) we wouldn't be so apt to crap on the worked shoot portion of what was going on in WCW near the end.

The booking, for the most part, was still shit. So, there's that.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Lance Storm was getting himself over on the internet before anybody.

[Tom Guycott]

Oddly enough, seems that's true. And that isn't even what he was trying to do.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

It makes sense that a guy with no charisma would thrive in a medium where everyone sounds exactly the same.

[Kane Knight]

The difference is, CM Punk's dick is thoroughly lodged in my esophagus.

Actually, that's pretty much always the difference, so you can just copy-paste that when another one of these threads comes up.

[Xero]

Another factor is that Russo was writing it himself, with no filter, even from himself. In the end of the day, Punk knows what to say and what not to say, and a part of that comes from knowing what WWE wants. He knows how to push the envelope without it disintegrating.

Punk also has massive amounts of respect for the business as wrestling, and that brings it to a whole other level. Russo never had that kind of respect for pro wrestling.

This argument is like comparing an orange to a lemon. They're similar, but one is sweeter and much more delicious to digest than the other.

[Xero]

It's true. Without Russo, there would be no CM Punk.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g122/sandman3g/pillman.jpg

[Haze]

This argument is like comparing an orange to a lemon. They're similar, but one is sweeter and much more delicious to digest than the other.

Thats deep.

[Rollermacka]

Thank you, I've said it before that this whole thing is feeling very "Russo"ish.

[Volare]

Lance Storm was getting himself over on the internet before anybody.

Steve Blackman allowed the internet to go over.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Its not like Russo invented the worked shoot. Paul Heyman had already mastered worked shoots while Russo was still playing Vic Venom on wwf.com. If anything, this current angle is very Heyman-esque. And seeing as how Heyman brought Punk to the WWE, this shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody.

[Innovator]

also Mark Madden isn't involved, so that helps

http://www.1059thex.com/cc-common/mediaplayer/player.html?redir=yes&mps=MarkMadden.php&mid=http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/PITTSBURGH-PA/WXDX-FM/CM%20Punk.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&CPROG=RICHMEDIA&MARKET=PITTSBURGH-PA&NG_FORMAT=&NG_ID=&OR_NEWSFORMAT=&OWNER=&SERVER_NAME=www.1059thex.com&SITE_ID=2094&STATION_ID=WXDX-FM&TRACK=

[Skippord]

fuck, well the angle is blown for me now

[St. Jimmy]

The difference that makes it important is that Punk is a WRESTLER who has paid is dues and actually likes Wrestling, where as Vince Russo was a loud sack of brooklyn shit who hates the "sport" and has no respect.

[Rammsteinmad]

Also, Punk is a wrestler who is unhappy with how the company he works for is using him. Russo is unhappy with how the company he runs (kayfabe anyway) is being run.

[Emperor Smeat]

Russo also over did the shoots without any real payoff and when he did try to have some sort of payoff it usually ended up being a big mess when he got involved in the ring.

With Punk at least everyone knows his issues revolves around Cena and the idea of everyone has to be a "yes" man to management. He will make a side remark every so often but it usually concerns one of those 2 issues and not a bunch of random stuff Russo did near the end of WCW.

[ThePhantom]

Can someone tell me the reason why CM Punk and John Cena wrestled on Raw this week at all? I watched the episode a couple hours ago, and then read the comments in the Raw thread about how bad the crowd was. It is no surprise to me, it is because they blew their load in the first half of the show. CM Punk should not be shown more than once every episode, and also it should not be before the last 25 minutes of each show. If they continue with the way they are booking him, he is going to lose his steam and people will stop caring. I really wish they didn't rush his return just so they had a decent main event for Summerslam

[Juan]

If they keep him off TV until the last 25 mins of the show each week, people will eventually not even bother with the other 95 mins of the show

[Rammsteinmad]

ThePhantom and CaptainCharismark are one and the same!!!

[MoFo]

ABT I love you, was thinking the exact same thing after that contract signing bit on Raw...

The father is Russo, I am the son and Punk is the spirit, together we are the trinity of the godhead, we three are as one, one will and one being and one soul, Vince Russo is the greatest booker of all time , he has defied all who where above him and gave us an era where wrestling was for adults and not 10yr olds, he played the game the way he wanted to and won...

Punks new uber cool act seems a little shitty IMO and he cant reach Russo heights of perfection, but him Cena and HHH smashing kayfabe to bits on Raw was brilliant TV...The Rock kinda killed the moment but they brought it back well.

Anyway my point is copying anything the dark lord Russo did is fine by me...

[Juan]

wow

[Malfeitor]

Are you serious, bro?

[Next Big Thing]

Honestly, I love Punk to death, but it's starting to wane on me a little bit too. It was cool at first because I haven't seen promos like that in a while, but now it's getting to be kind of stale. Don't get me wrong, Punk's timing and execution make it entertaining but still...

Maybe it's because Cena has jumped on board too and makes it a bit more cheesy/ ruins the novelty of it.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I'm not even saying I like it any less. The comparison just dawned on me, is all.

Also, I don't think that Cena has done anything to make it cheesy. That just sounds like blind Cena hatred. I feel he's been handling himself very well.

[Innovator]

It's been the opposite with me, this is the Cena I like. No poopy jokes.

[Anybody Thrilla]

If Cena wins, I won't even feel like rioting.

[Next Big Thing]

No hate. I just remember watching the first exchange with HHH and Punk where Punk called HHH to the carpet and did his impression of it and then seeing Cena do pretty much the same thing with Johnny Ace and feeling like they were trying to have Cena jump on the CM Punk "too cool for school train" and between him, Punk and HHH all doing it it's getting a little tiresome to me. That's all I'm saying.

I've taken enough lumps for being a Cena supporter to where I can hate on him from time to time.

[Next Big Thing]

In fact, I don't think there's anyone else in the company that Punk could have done this angle with and have it be as big.

[RVDmark]

If Cena wins, I won't even feel like rioting.

I will, and I'm from the UK so I mean it :D.

[Londoner]

I will, and I'm from the UK so I mean it :D.

Like WWE would give a fuck about us uk'ers rioting. :(

[RVDmark]

Like WWE would give a fuck about us uk'ers rioting. :(

Heh, what if the warehouse full of WWE DVD's got trashed? Oh it already did.

Joking aside, Cena jumping on the bandwagon is that how it's scripted? Or is it because he finally gets that you can be PG and not boring as f**k simultaneously.

[Punker]

@Disco Apocalypse: What no "Cristal" Pepsi reference?

Russo being compared to Punk is just nonsensical. Russo has never shit out a good thing except for some attitude era stuff that everyone still licks his nuts for even when his bad has vastly outweighed his good in the business.

If anything it's a clear sign of the type of people who need to have their ideas heard (Punk) vs the type of people who have run the well dry of them (Russo.)

[Rock Bottom]

The fact is, Cena riding Punk's thunder through this whole thing is going to cheapen its impact steadily. As others mentioned above, it will be tiresome with more people doing it. And part of the significance of this whole thing to a lot of fans was wanting a new "top guy," and while Cena isn't the type of guy to cause drama and throw his weight around about putting someone over, it really does come off like he's trying to "hang on" by doing this.

Point is, Cena's shtick has run its course. He's latched onto other performers a couple leagues ahead of him. If you're around at the top, and what you've been doing has been boring most people (whether or not it's a writer's fault), to have you just jump on someone else's bandwagon is slightly annoying. If this is supposed to be anything like the "passing of the torch," you're supposed to sit back and be yourself while the guy getting the ball does his thing, because he's there to show people what he can do. You've had your time. Don't start doing the same thing he's doing.

I thought everything's been well done up to this point. Even as Super Cena, the way he's lost his matches against Punk made sense. They were "clean," but both were caused by distractions that his character could not ignore. I agree with the notion that this angle wouldn't have many legs at all if it weren't for Cena's involvement. But that's because of the whole "status quo" factor, Cena's status. Not really because he's been a thrilling main eventer. That being said, I think Cena's promos have improved during this whole thing but that's to be expected.

I won't afford him much more credit, because as the top guy in the company a lot should be expected of you.

A lot of what Cena's been saying has probably been an idea of Punk's or at least discussed. We really have to see how this whole thing ends up before we can judge.

PS: Cena hate isn't blind. Some people can't stand him for a lot of reasons.

[owenbrown]

CM Punk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vince Russo

[Mr. Nerfect]

Everything's pretty much been said:

* Vince Russo's references were too confusing, for the sake of doing them, had no pay-off, fucked around with people getting emotionally invested, etc.

* CM Punk is smart enough to "shoot" in a way that doesn't blow the fourth wall entirely (even if he referenced the fourth wall). He's still a proper competitor heading into a proper match with John Cena that will be decided by who is more talented on that night.

But just on John Cena: I'm feeling that next year will be the year of the Cena heel turn. I felt that way before this Punk stuff started, and I'm feeling it more now. Yeah, Cena is still a huge cash cow, but with ratings and buyrates being down when he was WWE Champion, and only really peaking because of The Rock -- and The Rock confirmed to do more PPVs than WrestleMania -- I think next year we'll see Cena "sell-out" and portray a villain for the first time in what will be eight years.

That being said, I do think the WWE wants John Cena to remain their top face until WrestleMania next year, and I don't think it is Cena trying to latch onto Punk's new "movement," but rather the WWE is finally catching on to why people dislike John Cena, and trying to present him in a slightly less "ass-kissy" way. At SummerSlam, I think a CM Punk heel affirmation is far more likely than a John Cena heel turn. If Triple H screws Punk, it'll probably be to favour Del Rio, or it'll be without Cena's knowledge.

But one idea I've read about that I truly think is a possibility, is Punk aligning with Triple H and spitting in the face of anyone that has been supporting him lately (in a kayfabe sense). That might seem like it would be destroying Punk's momentum and such, but it'll make Punk the #1 heel in the WWE, and it'd be shades of The Rock becoming the Corporate Champion. That worked out alright for Rocky, didn't it?

[MoFo]

Punk referencing the releases was lame, came across really badly....

Cena and Triple H OWNED Punk in that segment.

[Aguakate]

CM Punk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vince Russo

CM Punk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone

[Kane Knight]

CM Punk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vince Russo

Yeah but a steaming pile of dog shit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vince Russo.

In short, I agree.

[Aguakate]

...Russo needs to revive Vic Venom...it's the only thing he ever did that I liked...

[Kane Knight]

Russo need to bring back Judy Bagwell.

[Aguakate]

Russo need to bring back Judy Bagwell.

OMG...time to remember one of Russo's "finest" moments:

<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="352" src="http://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x2zof6"></iframe><br /><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2zof6_buff-bagwell-vs-positively-kanyon-j_sport" target="_blank">Buff Bagwell vs. Positively Kanyon-Judy Bagwell...</a></i>


...this shit's so whack, it's funny...

[Kane Knight]

He was also behind Taker's Bikini gimmick.