World of Warcraft.

[OldSchoolFan]

Ok so I am Captain Come Late but who here plays WoW? Just started and am trying to look for new people to play with.

[Requiem]

/obligatory 'fuck this game' post

[LoDownM]

So why'd you come in here then? Seriously, you do this for every thread about a game you don't like, shits getting old "bro"

[G]

because it's an obligatory post not an optional post :-\

[Requiem]

G knows.

[The Destroyer]

I've dipped in and out of it, but I've never really played for more than a few weeks at any one time.

Other MMOs have grabbed my attention far more.

[RP]

/obligatory 'fuck this game' post

/obligatory ' you're fucking stupid ' post

[Requiem]

If you were twice as smart, you'd still be retarded, and you'd still fit in perfectly with the people who like this game.

[El Fangel]

I've dipped in and out of it, but I've never really played for more than a few weeks at any one time.



Yeah, if I wanted to do repetitive, boring actions over and over for 8 hours at a time without making any progress, I'd get a job at McDonalds where I would at least get paid for it.

[Nark Order]

Graphics card took a shit on me but as soon as I replace it, I'm back in.Kinda looking to "start over" with new toons on another server. Play has gotten pretty boring lately.

BTW, I'll never understand the Requiem crusade against WoW. It is most definitely the greatest MMO ever made. People may not like that it's the greatest MMO ever made but come on.

[El Fangel]

Most played =/= Greatest.

[Requiem]

Most played =/= Greatest.

This.

Until you understand what MMO's were and could have been, you'll never understand why I hate WoW, because you'll never understand the feeling of awe and adrenaline that good MMOs created. WoW's success came from a combination of taking an already established and popular IP, and appealing to a new type of gamer that previous MMOs weren't designed for, as well as low enough system requirements that -anyone- and their mother could play. They essentially changed what the genre was about, and left the people who enjoyed the genre as it was, with nothing to enjoy. They took the 'awe' out of the genre. Now, developers are afraid to try anything that might not get them a million subscribers, because they think that's what it means to be successful.

I would love to discuss this in private or in a new thread if you'd like. Or here, whatever.

[Nark Order]

It's fairly typical for people to feel that way with anything successful. Definitely get a "WWE vs indy wrestling" feel from it all. In Tahoe, I'll have this discussion later.

[Requiem]

I don't hate it because it's successful. I have a list of legitimate reasons for hating it, of which I can compare to other products that were/are successful in their own right.

Feel like you're just stuck on this "It sold millions of copies so it must be the best thing out there", so you think nothing I say can have any validity because you think quality is somehow correlative to # of sales.

[El Fangel]

It's fairly typical for people to feel that way with anything successful. Definitely get a "WWE vs indy wrestling" feel from it all. In Tahoe, I'll have this discussion later.

It's typical for people to assume that.

It's also typical for Bieber fans to assume I don't like him because he is popular instead of the actual reasons.

[LoDownM]

I don't really care about people's opinions of WoW, I just find it funny that FA is on Req's side and said this:

Yeah, if I wanted to do repetitive, boring actions over and over for 8 hours at a time without making any progress, I'd get a job at McDonalds where I would at least get paid for it.

When he's the one that started the WoW social group here.

[Xero]

I don't hate it because it's successful. I have a list of legitimate reasons for hating it, of which I can compare to other products that were/are successful in their own right.

Feel like you're just stuck on this "It sold millions of copies so it must be the best thing out there", so you think nothing I say can have any validity because you think quality is somehow correlative to # of sales.

Depends on how you look at it. WoW is the best MMO from a business perspective. It gets both hardcore and casual fans alike playing it. If a game can do that, how can you not say that it's not superior? I guarantee any game you can list will not fall into both casual and hardcore sides. It'll vastly be to one side or another (usually the hardcore side).

On the flip side, I can understand saying it's not the best because it has this, or doesn't do that. But that's more opinion that you cannot honestly back up with fact (in most cases).

It's really the same with music. Why is Justin Beiber "bad" because YOU don't like him? I'm not defending him because, frankly, I've never heard one of his songs. But I feel if a majority of a populace likes something and it pulls in the most money, and it's known by the most people, it should be considered the best. Music and gaming tastes are opinion. Money and subscribers/CD sales are cold hard facts.

[Razzamajazz]

i was into it until shortly after wrath of the lich king came out, then it felt too much like work and killed the fun. that and the amount of assclowns that make up the anonymity of the internet

[Requiem]

From a business perspective, McDonald's is the best restaurant in the world.

It has more stores and makes more money than any other restaurant. People eat there because it's cheap, easily accessible and fast. That's their goal, and they succeed at meeting it. However, I doubt anyone would seriously argue that McDonald's makes the best food in the world.

Business perspective is a lousy standard by which to judge the quality of a product.

[Captain of Fun]

Yeah, if I wanted to do repetitive, boring actions over and over for 8 hours at a time without making any progress, I'd get a job at McDonalds where I would at least get paid for it.

You mean like that one time you spent 8 hours on the phone waiting to get your WoW account reconnected?

I hope you don't think we all forgot the thread you made about it.

[Razzamajazz]

Business perspective is a lousy standard by which to judge the quality of a product.

.....really?

[Xero]

From a business perspective, McDonald's is the best restaurant in the world.

It has more stores and makes more money than any other restaurant. People eat there because it's cheap, easily accessible and fast. That's their goal, and they succeed at meeting it. However, I doubt anyone would seriously argue that McDonald's makes the best food in the world.

Business perspective is a lousy standard by which to judge the quality of a product.

Kind of doubt you see "foodies" (people hardcore about the quality of their food) going to McDonalds on a regular basis.

I'm not saying that WoW's quality is as high as it can be, but I do feel that a lot of people (yourself included) put the quality down purely because it's a more casual game now. That's really the thing I see when people shit on most games these days. They're too casual, they're too "easy", you don't have to sit at your computer or couch for days at a time to get somewhere now.

Blizzard took a relatively small genre and casual-fied it to make a profit. And the people who had played MMOs in the past are bitching because it's changed, and bitching because they can't get "a real" MMO now because of WoW. And they have a vendetta against it, but they fail to realize that this is a business, and the business has shifted heavily in favor of the casual gamer because that is where the money is.

Just because it's a casual game doesn't mean it's not quality. WoW is fairly high quality. Does it have its problems? Yes, absolutely. But it's a high quality game.

[Nark Order]

For a long while MMO players were a pretty niche breed of gamer. Feel like a lot of the resentment towards Warcraft comes from Blizzard making the MMO experience for everyone, and not just a select small group.

[El Fangel]

I don't really care about people's opinions of WoW, I just find it funny that FA is on Req's side and said this:

When he's the one that started the WoW social group here.


Congratulations on finding that. Now how about you find the last time I posted in there? Or the last time I played.

Ill save you the trouble and tell you it was shortly after Wrath of The Lich King. Why? Well because after 72 levels of doing the same things over and over and over. I sat back and realized I still have 8 levels to go to level cap which is likely another month or so of doing this shit and then I have to grind more to get gear so I will be properly equipped when the next expansion comes out.

I ended up uninstalling the game the next day.

Depends on how you look at it. WoW is the best MMO from a business perspective. It gets both hardcore and casual fans alike playing it. If a game can do that, how can you not say that it's not superior? I guarantee any game you can list will not fall into both casual and hardcore sides. It'll vastly be to one side or another (usually the hardcore side).

On the flip side, I can understand saying it's not the best because it has this, or doesn't do that. But that's more opinion that you cannot honestly back up with fact (in most cases).

It's really the same with music. Why is Justin Beiber "bad" because YOU don't like him? I'm not defending him because, frankly, I've never heard one of his songs. But I feel if a majority of a populace likes something and it pulls in the most money, and it's known by the most people, it should be considered the best. Music and gaming tastes are opinion. Money and subscribers/CD sales are cold hard facts.

Example? Team Fortress 2. Appeals to more competitive gamers like myself and Req but is also so easy that after a few hours a noob can be a decent player.

Its only been around I think 7 years as well and they still patch it regularly.

Bieber on the other hand is a product of marketing, auto-tune and 12 year old girls infatuation with some of the gayest looking people out there.

You mean like that one time you spent 8 hours on the phone waiting to get your WoW account reconnected?

I hope you don't think we all forgot the thread you made about it.

Who's sock are you?

As for that, my cousin wanted me to group with him against Illidan or someone. I spent all day trying to get through to get it playable and the fucker ended up quitting WoW a week later.

So pissed at him for that still.

[El Fangel]

Also, if you enjoy it thats entirely up to you, but I find it way too repetitive to be fun anymore.

[Xero]

I was talking purely MMORPGs.

[DrA]

From a business perspective, McDonald's is the best restaurant in the world.

It has more stores and makes more money than any other restaurant. People eat there because it's cheap, easily accessible and fast. That's their goal, and they succeed at meeting it. However, I doubt anyone would seriously argue that McDonald's makes the best food in the world.

Business perspective is a lousy standard by which to judge the quality of a product.

There are more Subways than McDonalds now.

[El Fangel]

I was talking purely MMORPGs.

I guarantee any game you can list will not fall into both casual and hardcore sides. It'll vastly be to one side or another (usually the hardcore side).

I said TF2 because you said the above sentence.

As for MMO's, of course WoW is the biggest. It also from the ones I have tried is by far the easiest to learn to play and to master. The difference from being agood to a great is knowing your timing for spells and abilitie as the best players will all have the same gear and then it just comes down to how well you can play your class and with very little practice you can become quite good at it.

But when you play a game such as EVE online, its just overwhelming, you are starting out as a spec in the universe and it doesn't really ever get easy at all. Thats probably why casual gamers really wont have fun with it at all.

[CSL]

hot thread

[Requiem]

Currently writing a VERY long post. Will probably post it later today or tomorrow if I can get around to it.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Currently writing a VERY long post. Will probably post it later today or tomorrow if I can get around to it.

Golly gee wilikers, I can hardly wait.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Currently writing a very short post, probably post it in the next minute.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I'm enjoying the butthurt.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

That wasn't the short post by the way

[Requiem]

You would have been a terrible King of the Forum. Terrible form.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Dysfunctional o-ring.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

You would have been a terrible King of the Forum. Terrible form.

Right where it hurts, my internet forum tournament runner-up status.

Brb, gonna write several paragraphs about Rebecca Black explaining why she isn't any good, while she gains popularity and money.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I mean I never liked WoW, but this thread is silly.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I'm just going to keep replying with nonsense until my flu medication kicks in.

[Requiem]

Have a little class for once and stop trying to incite something when you have nothing useful to add.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Wish they'd stop showing the Forza 4 ad. My friends stag do is making me skint as it is without buying that.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Holy crap os it pretty though.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Should probably makes sure I'm done with F1 2011 before grabbing other racing games though.

[Requiem]

What a great moderator you are.

[G]

Back in March, Subway has surpassed McDonald's in number of stores. Holy crap did not see that coming. They've apparently adopted many of McDonald's business practices and flourished.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Dam, still sounds sarcastic doing it that way.

[G]

The "$5 Footlong" is the new "dollar menu"

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Back in March, Subway has surpassed McDonald's in number of stores. Holy crap did not see that coming. They've apparently adopted many of McDonald's business practices and flourished.

And now you can get the whole of UC3 multiplayer by having a large Subway drink.

I blame Jared for this.

[G]

12 inch Italian herbs and cheese, black forest ham, american cheese, lettuce and chipotle sauce is my "regular" there.

[G]

And now you can get the whole of UC3 multiplayer by having a large Subway drink.

I blame Jared for this.

You just reminded me to redeem the code I was given from that yesterday. :y:

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I can only gobble down a 6" in a sitting, but gotta love steak and cheese on IH&C bread.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Never known why Subways parent company was Doctors Assosiates. "Hi, we're associated with doctors. Have a sandwich, lardo."

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Hate the Forza ad for getting Kanye in my head. It's such a shit fucking song that's too damn catchy. Will be the rickroll of 2032 or some crap.

[OldSchoolFan]

So I take it as a "no" as far as looking for more people to play with...

[LoDownM]

Well that is what happens when you make a thread about a game Req doesn't like. He gets on his soap box and derails the thread.

[Requiem]

If it wasn't for me, there'd be next to no critical discussion of anything on here. There's already no end to the tongue-in-cheek insults that pass for posts in this forum. Nothing of discussion worthy substance. It's all angry mob jumping down Kalyx's throat and FA complaining that he gets killed a lot.

What would you have me do? Sit back and only comment on games I like? I notice when I rant about a game, there's never any mention of the countless threads in which I don't criticize a game. The threads where I commend companies for creating quality and substance over mass appeal, or actually discuss positive things in games that are good. But because I happen to have a very strong opinion of a -few- bad eggs, that's apparently all you see.

This all started when Narc pointed out that he doesn't understand why I hate WoW, and people saying it must be because it's popular. That's not even a reason though. It's a cop-out and does nothing to explain their side of it. "It's popular so it must be good". If that's their reason for liking it, then they are nothing more than sheep.

I hadn't even had a chance to point out the features and detailed reasons why I dislike it, and people are already dismissing the fact that I could POSSIBLY dislike this game, 'because the game is popular'. Sounds like 'because it's popular' is their reason, not mine.

[Nark Order]

People don't just play it because it's a popular game though, they play it because it's incredible and was really one of the first MMOs to put it all together seamlessly into a near flawless package. WoW had one of the greatest betas ever and Blizz took the time to get away from alot of the downfalls of typical MMOs. For one they really put alot of time into the character animations, as that's always been a pretty big distraction in typical MMOs. They got rid of tons of clumsy and clunky animations and really made sure they got a certain degree of seamlessness in the gameplay. I mean, you can even tell a difference between WoW and current big MMOs in that dept. Rift plays slowly and many of the animations are lagging, whereas I don't have as much of a problem with that in Warcraft. In many respects, WoW plays like a console action RPG game, just on a keyboard (And obviously tons more commands,).

Also, the storyline, the attention to detail, and the attention to lore is pretty incredible all things considered. They've had quite awhile to build it up to the monster that it is today, but it's still quite the achievement. Another large selling point for WoW is how simple they've made it to interact and play with friends now. Between linked accounts and cross-server play, you can play with pretty much anybody you want now. As referenced before, scalability is probably a large part to it as well but you make it seem like it's all some huge evil ploy or something to cheaply gain more users. A wide range of scalability is gigantic because it allows people that maybe don't get to typically play PC games an option to participate in the world as well. Mad good business strategy.

[Nark Order]

Get alot of "the game is too repetitive" a ton. Show me an MMO that isn't repetitive and I will drive to your house and suck your cock.

[LoDownM]

Well it's easy for people to jump the conclusion that you "don't like it because it's popular" since you are almost always ranting on how you hate XZYGame, when it happens to be an immensely popular game Req. I've never accused you of that tho.

Frankly, I don't care about anyone's reason for liking/hating and game I like/hate.

[Xero]

Get alot of "the game is too repetitive" a ton. Show me an MMO that isn't repetitive and I will drive to your house and suck your cock.

Most games are repetitive, honestly. I think it can be said that WoW's quests do tend to be one of like 4 different types of quests, plus random raiding and dungeon crawls and in that sense it may be a bit more repetitive than some games (not counting MMOs here because I haven't played any others). But Left for Dead, for example, is repetitive as fuck, and is still an awesome game.

You want to talk about repetition, talk about the people who play CoD on only like four maps because that's what the majority like/have memorized. I'm not putting them down, I'm just saying they're repetitive as fuck and I can name repetition in virtually any game you can throw at me. And for that reason, I really don't feel that repetitiveness is a legitimate gripe in most games, WoW included.

[Requiem]

WoW is repetitive in the aspect that its primary form of gameplay is meaningless. Its quests are pointless, and when you get to raiding, your gear is made meaningless the next big raid that comes out. If you are not among the elite who are at the highest tier of gear, then you are insignificant to the rest of the people who play. And if you are at the highest tier, then there is nothing for you to do except use that gear to get more gear.

There is no reason for PvP. Battlegrounds are artificial conflict, and there is nothing to gain or lose from PvP.

There is repetitiveness that acts as a means to an end, and then there is just 'primary gameplay' that is repetitive.

Have a huge ass thing written that I didn't finish because I felt like I was not able to focus on one thing well enough. Like, jumps around to so many different things that I don't think it would be received well at all.

Actually wish that I had the time to try and pull you into the world of another MMO that is currently out, called EVE Online. Every time I start typing about it, it gets so big and I miss so many things that I don't think I could properly describe it to you. I will say this though - it has 400,000 subscribers, has been around for 8 years, and takes place on a -single- server in which they have reached records of over 63,000 players online at a single time, on this single server.

You could see firsthand what kind of potential there is for virtual worlds and the MMO industry. I feel that if its features were translated into something more people could grasp; ie, fantasy and not sci-fi, and was developed by a company that had the budget Blizzard used on WoW, that it would compete directly with WoW, hands down.

[Xero]

I tried Eve Online, it honestly seemed needlessly complicated to me.

[Requiem]

To describe it in slightly more depth. There is a real sense of fear when you leave the protection of a station. Items can be lost, and 95% of the items in the game are crafted by other players. The universe is HUGE. Like, mind-blowingly huge. I can say that, and you might not think anything of it, but if you logged in and looked at the map, the size would baffle you.

There is safe space, where you are protected by a police-like presence if you are attacked, and there is less safe space, and then lawless space. In lawless space, players actually own territory, place stations, infrastructure, and wage wars against other player corporations that last months and sometimes years. It is a living, breathing universe, ran by its players due to tools given to them by the developers. There is no hand holding.

Other players have created a community which is both friendly and one of the most helpful communities I have ever experienced in a game, and is also cold and unforgiving. The game rewards smart players. The learning curve is brutal, but not so that people don't play. It has consistently risen in subscription numbers since its release in 2003, and the company is a true rags to riches story. They worked for 6 months without pay to see it released, and relied solely on digital distribution up until recent years, because their publisher went bankrupt and took the rights to publishing with them.

[Requiem]

I tried Eve Online, it honestly seemed needlessly complicated to me.

There is nothing needless about it. When you get past the initial learning curve, and get into a corporation where you have clear cut goals set ahead of you, it all falls into place. In order to succeed at it, you have to leave behind any concept from another MMO. Literally. If you approach it like you approached any other MMO, you will not understand it and it will chew you up and spit you out.

[Xero]

Here is the big question: Is the game simple enough that virtually any gamer could get into it within an hour or two, outside of the casual Tetris gamer? What you describe, to me, sounds like a hardcore game where you have to sink a lot of time into it to really get anywhere. And that is why a game like that isn't going to be a mega success like WoW. It can be successful in its own right, but it's still a niche product that a majority isn't going to enjoy.

If I'm wrong I'd love to hear the argument, because I really haven't played it much. But from what I'm hearing, it's an unfriendly, complicated game that takes a long while to really get into.

As stated, a game like WoW is simple to get into and simple enough for anyone to play at a high level to a point. You can get "more hardcore" into it and it satisfies that bunch, or you can stay casual and still feel a sense of accomplishment.

[Requiem]

I am not saying that EVE Online is the epitome of an MMO. There are some aspects of its gameplay that are slow-paced, and other aspects that have not even been fully explored by the company. Its players are among its biggest critics. But the depth it brings to the genre is second to none. There is purpose behind everything. There is a type of gameplay for everyone, and the game gives back what you put into it by having very few limits on what you can actually do.

[Nark Order]

Very few guilds in WoW reach a level of achievement where there is nothing to do anymore. There is a ton of content and if that content is run through, then the goal is to get players as geared as possible for the possibility of farming that raid or to get ready for the next big patch. It's not like there isn't anything to do outside of instances and raiding though. The World is fucking gigantic and full of things to pass the time.

Your overlooking a very huge part of PvP and possibly just the game in general. The point to PvP is that it's fun and that it takes a considerable amount of skill to compete at a high level, especially in arenas. This is where Wow PVP is like alot of FPS games. What's the point of playing TF2 or COD for 500 hours? There is no point, it's fun. Unless the point is achievements, but WoW has those as well.

[Requiem]

I like your question. It is both a hardcore game, and a casual one. It is hardcore, because if you dedicate a lot of time to it, you can succeed for certain. If you are a casual player, the time-based skill progression (it is important to note that skills are only a measure of how much you can do.. the 5 year veteran with 50 million skillpoints worth of training, is able to do way more things than you.. but if you specialize in skills, you can compete with that 5 year veteran in a certain aspect in no time.)

To more specifically address your question - If you can fully understand a game within 2 hours of starting, then I don't think that MMO is worth playing. Can it hook people within that time? If they take the time to do the tutorials, yes. Further, if they join a corporation (guild), the experience is made 10x better and easier to understand. To elaborate, people play EVE for years, and still learn new things. It is a -different- kind of game than WoW. The main problem I see with people who try the game, is that they think they can grind for a month and be able to compete with people who have been playing for years. That simply won't happen.

I don't think that -should- happen. In old MMOs, it took a LONG ASS TIME for people to hit max level. Why? Because hitting max level wasn't the goal. The goal was to PLAY the game. There was content all the way to max level, and then there were different kinds of content once you reached that level.

In EVE, there are no levels. There are only skills, and levels of skills. Skills are a means with which to do more things. This means, the purpose of the game is to PLAY it. Your goals aren't to complete a raid and get X piece of gear. Your goals are to experience the game. Take down an enemy station.. be a part of a massive 500 vs 500 (yes this happens) battle. If you're into PvE, there is all kinds of content. The newest are called incursions, which are random world encounters of varying difficulties. There are also wormholes, which take you into uncharted space where your corporation can kill incredibly smart AI or set up infrastructure and mine rare minerals which can be used to craft powerful items.

There is literally so much to this game, that I feel there is something for every degree of player, if they are willing to give it a chance.

Now, what I am saying is that if a fantasy game were to come out that applied this theory of having a UNIQUE character, with a lot of variance in the items you used.. had meaningful crafting, and player conflict that was created by the players using tools such as actual control over the world, etc.. Make a player feel useful from day one, and I feel that game would be incredibly successful.

In EVE, there is protection for players who don't want to experience PvP. The player has to be smart though. I have read stories from people who have played for years, only experiencing the PvE portion of the game, and have never been killed by another player. That aspect of the game is a very major part of it, but it is avoidable if that's not your thing.

[Requiem]

I am not trying to convince people to play EVE here. I am just trying to say that there are features in other games which make them feel ALIVE. WoW doesn't do that. It feels like an arcade game. That's not what MMOs were about. Capture the Flag shouldn't exist in an MMO, in my opinion. It cheapens the experience. Much of what WoW does feels like a very cheapened gaming experience, especially from the MMOs I have played in my life. I had the list written... let me add it here for clarification.

I have actively played Asheron's Call 1, Asheron's Call 2, Everquest 1, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, EVE Online, Guild Wars, Pirates of the Burning Sea

I have tried for various lengths of time, but not continued to play, Everquest 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Shadowbane, Age of Conan, Darkfall, City of Heroes, Champions Online, Final Fantasy XI, Ultima Online, Lord of the Rings Online, D&D Online, Saga of Ryzom, Global Agenda, RF Online, Atlantica Online, Anarchy Online

Those aren't even all of them. That was off the top of my head. I have beta tested probably twice that many. That's just to show that there having played so many other games, INCLUDING WOW, that WoW is not even close to the best. It is the most easily accessible, and that is all. It can be fun, but for what this genre is capable of, it leaves sooooo much to be desired, and I wish that people would be willing to branch out and try other things.

[El Fangel]

Just want to toss in something about WoW.

One thing I disliked when I played is that its always about getting the best gear. I wanted to run Onyxia to see what it was like, always the same response, no good drops.

It seems to be driven less on story and enjoying the game and more on whether the gear you have collected so far is good enough for survival in the next place.

In the three years I played on and off, I never was in a raid, never. My gear was never good enough to survive despite being almost level cap. There was always someone with slightly better gear taking my spot.People who had the time to waste to run a dungeon a few times before they got that item they wanted.

As for EVE, it was overwhelming just how insignificant you are in the grand scheme of things in that game.

You are a grain of sand in a desert.

[Nark Order]

New players wouldn't even obtain a talent tree yet in the span of two hours. And if they did, they would just be starting to understand it. No, WoW isn't an immensely complicated game when it comes to talents/spells, it's very fairly complicated later on (especially in PVP) when you're testing your skill against other players and PVE content. Definitely think you're trying to oversimplify things to prove your point. Also, so far you've really only expressed problems with end game, which is only part of the overall game. The first time I stepped into Stormwind I almost shit my pants. WoW does a great job of creating a meaningful experience for first time players and even repeat players. Everything is done with style and done with intention.

And fine. Eve is probably a good game. That doesn't really mean that WoW is a bad game.

[Requiem]

In the year and a half I played WoW, and any of the times I revisited it, I never once experienced real adrenaline. There was never a single bit of fear or excitement. When I completed a quest or finished I raid, I never felt accomplished. It felt like a huge waste of time when all was said and done. When I killed someone in PvP, there was no rush. When I got killed, it was only frustrating in the sense that it took me out of the game for a couple minutes and that there was probably nothing I could even do to extract real revenge on that person. If they were higher level, I couldn't kill them. And if I did, they'd just run to their body or use the spirit to resurrect and go on about their business.

Any piece of gear I found was useless, to be replaced in a couple levels or by something I got from a quest, which would also be replaced soon after. An endless cycle.

It was just.. pointless. The group of people that made up your guild was usually just a collection of people that I typically never wanted anything more to do with. In at least 4 of the games on my actively played list, I was a part of guilds where I really knew the people. They were more like a family in-game than just a group of people who you raided with. In WoW, I'd be surprised if any of the people in any of the guilds I was in, knew the majority of the people in their guild, or cared if they were even in it.

[Nark Order]

"It is more accessible and that is all." That's silly. The market has been open for a WoW-killer for quite some time and money has been been thrown into a quite a few big projects. None of them have done close to what WoW has done, nor did they even really create much of a spark. It isn't because WoW makes people play their game. Blizzard are fucking wonderful developers that take their time to create an experience, and it shows in every game they make. Not only that, but they listen to a ton of their fanbase and they're just generally cool as fuck with all of the easter eggs/extra content. Blizzard won't stop making quality games either and they'll probably corner the marker for a long time to come. Quality brings in quantity.

[El Fangel]

Also, anytime I ever rerolled in WoW, I only ever thought of it as "another grind to 80"

[Nark Order]

Also, feel like you are intentionally ignoring alot of the work the went into WoW that makes it what it is. The artwork, the music, the customization, the immense account security, the constant new content, the likability of the two sides (Horde/Alliance), the sense of humor, and the fact that it doesn't take itself too seriously (all of the witty banter inside of the game)... Just to name a few. There's much more to the success of a game than a large budget and a good idea, it needs to be properly executed. Ask EA Epic.

[Requiem]

New players wouldn't even obtain a talent tree yet in the span of two hours. And if they did, they would just be starting to understand it. No, WoW isn't an immensely complicated game when it comes to talents/spells, it's very fairly complicated later on (especially in PVP) when you're testing your skill against other players and PVE content. Definitely think you're trying to oversimplify things to prove your point. Also, so far you've really only expressed problems with end game, which is only part of the overall game. The first time I stepped into Stormwind I almost shit my pants. WoW does a great job of creating a meaningful experience for first time players and even repeat players. Everything is done with style and done with intention.

And fine. Eve is probably a good game. That doesn't really mean that WoW is a bad game.

I'm not oversimplifying it. Other games just have that much more depth to them. :-\ There is just that much more content to experience, which sums up ALL of why I feel WoW is inferior. You have this notion that WoW is the best and most thorough experience, but if you would put some effort into experiencing other games, you would realize that there is so much more potential than what WoW offers the MMO genre.

And I addressed the rest of the game. The problem with WoW is that the GOAL is the end-game. The developers have made it that way. Once you experience the 1-60 content, it is the same the next time you do it. If your friend is 10-15 levels higher than you, you're out of luck.. you have to catch up before you can really participate in their content with them. There's really no point in doing a dungeon twice before cap, because as long as you complete the series of quests for that dungeon and get those pieces of gear, they'll just help you along on your way to the cap because you'll replace them in a few levels anyways.

Games like EVE, and Asheron's Call, and even Everquest (to an extent).. fuck, even Star Wars Galaxies. You could still do things with your friends. Especially in EVE and SWG. In EVE, as a new player, if you actually try to find a corporation, you can go out and PvP with them within days of starting your character. You can run high-end missions with them and there will be some role that will help them, and you will be able to share in the rewards of that mission equally. That's not to say you will come close to being competitive if you were stacked up against a veteran player 1 on 1. But you wouldn't be able to in ANY MMO.

[LoDownM]

It seems to be driven less on story and enjoying the game and more on whether the gear you have collected so far is good enough for survival in the next place.




Actually, Cata has changed that. All the new leveling zones from 80-85 have a huge main story, ie you actually feel like you've pushed Deathwings minions out of Hyjal when you finish the questline, from the first quest in the zone to the very last. Blizzard has revamped all the old zones, minus Outland and Northrend, to make leveling easier and added main stories to the zones.

It seems to me that Req is basing a lot of his opinions from the first 2 years WoW was out. It has changed some since then, and yes I've been playing since "vanilla" I know what the game used to be like.

[Requiem]

Also, feel like you are intentionally ignoring alot of the work the went into WoW that makes it what it is. The artwork, the music, the customization, the immense account security, the constant new content, the likability of the two sides (Horde/Alliance), the sense of humor, and the fact that it doesn't take itself too seriously (all of the witty banter inside of the game)... Just to name a few. There's much more to the success of a game than a large budget and a good idea, it needs to be properly executed. Ask EA Epic.

The artwork is unique, sure. It is simple enough to run on a lot of people's PCs, which attributes to its success for certain. Does that make it the best? Not really.. that makes it easily accessible.

Its music is great. That doesn't make a game though.

Its account security is shit. Not sure where you got the idea that they have good account security. There are probably a larger % of hacked accounts in WoW than any other MMO in the history of the genre. lol You could say that's because of the game's popularity so more people target it.. but to say it has great account security is false. Google it, and you'll find the absurd amount of hackings that happen. Even with their little safe thing you could purchase that would generate a key for you or whatever.. that thing went through a shitstorm of hackings. And the game itself has seen more hacking programs in its life than you probably realize. I know someone personally who was banned approx 6 times for using hacks. Like, legit hacks. Teleport hacks, a bot, hacks that let him abuse mechanics to get MASSIVE amounts of gold. lol

I'm not discounting those other features as bad things. But those are not the gameplay. Those can certainly enhance an experience, but they don't make the game. I don't buy a game and pay a monthly subscription based on how charming a game is.

Also.. what customization? You are the exact same as any other class that is at the same point as you. You have a few sliders to choose from to change how your character looks. As far as stats, if you're a paladin with tier 5 gear, you're exactly the same as another paladin with tier 5 gear.. the only difference being one of 3 talent trees you have to put points in. You can say I'm oversimplifying it, but again.. you haven't seen what's out there. That -is- simple compared to the potential the genre has.

[Nark Order]

And I addressed the rest of the game. The problem with WoW is that the GOAL is the end-game. The developers have made it that way.

1.)Once you experience the 1-60 content, it is the same the next time you do it.
2.)If your friend is 10-15 levels higher than you, you're out of luck.. you have to catch up before you can really participate in their content with them.
3.) There's really no point in doing a dungeon twice before cap, because as long as you complete the series of quests for that dungeon and get those pieces of gear, they'll just help you along on your way to the cap because you'll replace them in a few levels anyways.

1.) That isn't really true, as there are multiple areas that fit within a certain level range. If I don't want to level in Thousand Needles, I don't really have to because there are other areas with quests that fit my general level range. I can level up one character going a certain route then almost almost avoid going to those same areas again. I don't even have to have the same starting area if I choose another race.

2.) I got my girlfriend playing the game and linked our accounts together and the level deal wasn't an issue at all, as it caught her up to my general level mad quickly. There are also incentives to linking accounts together like extra levels for each player, free teleports so your friend can get in your area immediately, and two person mounts. The level gap problem is obviously never going to be completely solved because there's so many levels but that's the way the ball rolls. Isn't like they haven't been active in solving the problem.

3.) I primarily run instances for leveling, simply due to gear, money, and reputation gains. There's plenty of incentives to run instances,

[Requiem]

This is customization.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BS6oN7_E2eE?hd=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There are approx. 373 skills, each of which has 5 levels, and no player in 8 years has even come close (even remotely close) to maxing their character out.

[Nark Order]

I've never known anybody that's gotten their account hacked with an authenticator on it. I'm sure it happens . What I do know is that everybody I've ever known that has gotten their account hacked has gotten their stuff back immediately with a short call to Blizz (Including myself and my brother). Also, they've really cracked down on logins from different IPs and they'll generally make you change your password if you login from another computer now.

Also, as far as customization goes. Have you not read patch notes for transmogrification?

[LoDownM]

I didn't even have to call blizzard when I got hacked before I got my authenticator. Was literally like 2 clicks and by the end of the day I had my account back.

[Requiem]

In Asheron's Call, it took 2 years before the first player hit max level. And another 2 years before it was commonplace. There was just so much content to enjoy in the world, because the content took time and effort to complete. You felt like you achieved something cool when you completed it. It took me 6 months of on and off collecting (all while doing other things still.. I'd just go out and work on it here and there) to collect the pieces for this badass suit of armor that wouldn't drop on death. It didn't have AMAZING stats, but it looked cool, and it was perfect for PvP due to its non-drop status. When I finally completed it, it was one of the biggest feelings of accomplishment of any game I'd ever played. This is what MMOs are about. Delivering unique feelings that most other game genres simply don't do. You've compared WoW's PvP to shooters, but why would I want to PvP in an MMO just to feel the same as when I play those other games? I don't pay a monthly subscription to feel the same as I do in other games.

MMOs have been all about delivering an experience that other games just can't come close to delivering.

In Asheron's Call, they had live events for each story line. GMs would get on special characters and show up in random places in the world. They'd send people on quests, give out unique items, or even have major story-developing battles.

In Everquest for a really long time they had random encounters with GM characters. You could come across a GM in a random location on some special character, and they would actually role-play with you and send you on a quest that they created.

I get that WoW has so many servers that it would be hard to do this now.. but it has more to do with the type of game they've made, because it perpetuates this experience that doesn't really take you into a world so much as a game.

In Everquest, I don't think it is even possible to have

[El Fangel]

I get daily "Final Warning" emails from "Blizzard" about my account being caught hacking, cheating, etc.

I've never checked to see if it's real or not, fact is I don't care.

I spent hours playing that game, Got to level 77 when cap was 80 and never felt like I accomplished anything, ever. It always felt like I had to get new gear to be better and I didn't Id be left behind.

A few meaningless pugs here and there, meh. I joined a few guilds and got booted for not,being active enough.

Always felt to be good I had to spend days playing this game to get decent gear.

Its always about gear, that's why you have twinks in battleground, people using level 19 rares because it gives them the best advantage as they are the best they can be at that level.

That's why I quit playing, I never owned a piece of tier anything gear and realized I never would and because of that I would never be able to reach the endgame.

Like Req said about EVE, you can help people who have been playing for years an hour after you start.

The learning curve is brutal though.

[Requiem]

Really, I think my original point has been made ten-fold. I get that you're not going to dislike WoW because of this. But I really hope that you understand that there is so much more out there. WoW is not the best simply because the most people play it. The most people play it because they made a game which already had a popular IP (I mean, you CAN'T deny that Warcraft was immensely popular before this) which could be picked up by -anyone-, and played on even the most ancient computer. I can't tell you how many people's parents play WoW. Not even gamers.. but just people who can easily grasp its concepts. And that's great and all.. but for the MMO genre on a whole, it doesn't come close to the level of quality available in the past, and in some hard to find places at the moment. It has made developers afraid of trying those old things, because the amount of money it made is all developers see when they start to develop a game.

[El Fangel]

Req, post that learning curve pic.

[El Fangel]

One thing that wow fixed was getting the mount at level 40.

Too much of this game is running point A to B.

[LoDownM]

I find that people who "twink" aren't really that good at pvp at max level, that's why they do that. And guilds have changed too, there are tons of casual guilds these days and with the guild leveling stuff, people rarely get kicked for being inactive, because it's all about leveling the guild up to get the guild perks now.

And with the dungeon finder, you can literally be in raid ready gear in 3 days if that's all you do. It's no longer run the same instance 100 times and that new piece of gear you need never drops, it's do a few instances via the dungeon finder buy a better piece of gear from the justice/valor point vendor. And if people give you shit about your gear, just troll them.

In conclusion, I've said And a lot in this post.

[Requiem]

http://rift.chromebits.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/LearningCurve.jpg

This was from some years ago.. Second Genesis is a really old expansion. The new player experience has also been drastically improved since then, but it is still a pretty great picture to explain just how different EVE really is.

Oh, speaking of expansions, EVE releases every single expansion for -free-. They release 2 per year currently, and the 2 of them combined probably have the amount of content and fixes that 1 WoW expansion contains. This is not to be confused with patches, which happen regularly to update technical problems and balance issues. It is legit large amounts of new content and massive feature roll-outs.

[Nark Order]

It doesn't fit your idea of an MMO, fine. But it is an MMO and the most successful MMO of all time for a good reason. You seem to have very niche tastes and they aren't going to be able to be met by very many huge developers that are trying to make money. There aren't tons of gamers that want to play for two years just to start the game, it isn't realistic.

You're definitely romanticizing alot of MMOs from the past but none of them were ever as complete as Warcraft. MMOs used to be known as glitchy bug fests before WoW came along and redefined the standards for maintenance and gameplay. Have other games had better ideas or concepts? Probably. Nobody has ever executed in the way that Blizzard did with Wow though.

[Requiem]

CCP (the company that makes EVE) has had some internal issues in the last year, but their development model and business model have been incredibly successful. They are risk takers, which is what the industry needs more of. More companies should be willing to work without pay if it means getting a quality product out. Those are real gamers there, in it for more than the money. (They worked without pay for 6 months in order to release the game, because their publisher went bankrupt and took the publishing rights with them.. so they ALSO had to release solely through digital download for YEARS)

[Requiem]

It doesn't fit your idea of an MMO, fine. But it is an MMO and the most successful MMO of all time for a good reason. You seem to have very niche tastes and they aren't going to be able to be met by very many huge developers that are trying to make money. There aren't tons of gamers that want to play for two years just to start the game, it isn't realistic.

You're definitely romanticizing alot of MMOs from the past but none of them were ever as complete as Warcraft. MMOs used to be known as glitchy bug fests before WoW came along and redefined the standards for maintenance and gameplay. Have other games had better ideas or concepts? Probably. Nobody has ever executed in the way that Blizzard did with Wow though.

No other company had the money combined with the experience to make a game like Blizzard did. That's the only reason their product was as complete on release. Even now, NO company has released as complete of a product, so many years later. Blizzard certainly has experience. There's no denying they know how to program, and they know how to market. No denying at all. But they also had the money to back it up.

[Requiem]

Need to do some homework, gonna go do that. Really just feel you should open your mind a bit more to the genre on a whole. I already covered why sales don't = quality, and now that combined with the reasons I've given, is a much more complete picture on why I don't feel this game is anywhere near the best. I never once said, as Hasney stated, that they are not the most successful. That would be stupid. They are clearly incredibly successful, and I'm sure they enjoy their billions of dollars.

But the game itself is not a unique experience. Definitely feel like you're ignoring a lot of what I said when you totally dropped certain points and started going on to other parts of what makes WoW good to you, like its charm. You haven't even acknowledged a single feature or concept I've listed, and just respond with "Well WoW did this amazingly. Those games weren't as good as WoW"

:| No really, go back and read some while I'm gone. That's what you've done. I went through and responded pretty thoroughly to most of what you've said. But you've been on the defensive instead of actually paying attention to the points I'm trying to make.

And to your last post that I read.. you apparently haven't been following what I've been saying either if you think I've implied that it takes years to even begin playing a game. I stated, pretty clearly, that in these other games, you could take part in content with people of all levels. In EVE, if you tried, you could take part in massive group warfare in less than a week. You could be a part of 'high-end' PvP in that little of time. You simply can't do that in WoW.

I also described situations in which max level was NOT THE GOAL. That is my issue with WoW. They made the goal reaching max level. Content such as kill quests and collect X feathers and bring them back, is SHIT content. I don't care what you say. That is terrible, and it is the -main- way to level in that game. Each series of levels takes you to more and more of those kinds of quests. If you were to take into account the amount of content, I guarantee that the majority of it is either to get there, or for people already at the end-game. Because that's where people have been for years.

In old games, there was content the entire way through. Leveling was slow, but that wasn't a problem. It didn't piss people off. The point of these games is the long-term aspect. Think of how many years you have probably played WoW off and on. Or consistently. How many years have you played it? I'm curious, tbh.

You're acting like it takes 2 years to begin enjoying these games, but that's not true at all. The enjoyment should be the entire journey. Just playing the game should be an enjoyment. You're paying a monthly fee to play the game, not just to play the game when you hit max level.

Ok, gotta force myself to stop typing so I can do this assignment.

[El Fangel]

I'm fairly certain that if WoW didn't have the previously established Warcraft fanbase we wouldn't be having this conversation.

From your stance Narc, you are unlikely to change opinion.

However my opinion is that most played =/= best, by that logic Baby by Justin Bieber is the best video on Youtube which I doubt you would argue.

The simplest fact is, Wow is incredibly easy to learn how to play, had an existing fanbase prior to release and that you can reach endgame through constant playing with little skill needed.

[Kane Knight]

Currently writing a VERY long post. Will probably post it later today or tomorrow if I can get around to it.

Like Steam, Req now offers the option to pre-load posts.

[Xero]

I'm fairly certain that if WoW didn't have the previously established Warcraft fanbase we wouldn't be having this conversation.

From your stance Narc, you are unlikely to change opinion.

However my opinion is that most played =/= best, by that logic Baby by Justin Bieber is the best video on Youtube which I doubt you would argue.

The simplest fact is, Wow is incredibly easy to learn how to play, had an existing fanbase prior to release and that you can reach endgame through constant playing with little skill needed.

I disagree that the fanbase is what made it a major hit. Yes, the fanbase made up the majority of the early adopters along with MMO fans, I'm sure, but if the game was shit, no fanbase would have gotten it to the size it is today. On the flipside, if Warcraft was an entirely new IP going into WoW, I think the adoption would have been slower, but it still would have taken on a life of its own. You also have to take into account that WoW and the Warcraft strategy series are fairly different genres. It was a nice kick start, but meant little in the long run.

[Requiem]

Also, I didn't even touch on the community. The community is just LOL.

Also Xero, I think you underestimate just how large a following blizzard had before WoW. Starcraft, Warcraft, and Diablo. 3 of the most popular games of their kind, with a dedicated online following. Hell, people still play Diablo 2 to this day online, and Warcraft, and Starcraft.

Also, don't forget that the largest portion of WoW's subscribers are in Asia. (approx 5.5 million) Asia's Starcraft following is -insane-, even to this day.

Just googled, and discovered that to this day, 11 million people still play Diablo 2 and Starcraft over battle.net

Diablo series has sold over 17 million copies.

Starcraft, by 2009, had sold 11 million copies worldwide.

Warcraft 3 sold 4.5 million copies BEFORE it even shipped. Can't find any total of what it eventually sold, but if that's any indication, I'd bet it was a lot. Especially compared to the other 2 games I mentioned, and considering it had 2 games before it.

[El Fangel]

So what you are saying Req, is that there was an enormous amount of people waiting and willing to hand their money over to Blizzard from the start?

Blizzard cant have possssssibly known that right?

[Xero]

Fair enough, but that doesn't take away from the fact that if the game was a piece of shit even the Blizzard hardcores would have left in droves.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, even if the game was completely broken and a piece of shit, it'd still have millions of people playing every day 7 years after release because it's a Blizzard game and the people who play it are blind sheep. It has nothing to do with the quality of any of those games or WoW.

[Requiem]

I'm not saying they created a product that nobody wanted to play. I'm saying that in the grand scheme of this genre, it is an inferior product compared to other MMOs on the market, and the majority of its players are not truly MMO players, because they've never experienced more than WoW. They think WoW is the best thing ever, because they've never known anything else. Narc is a shining example of this. He may have played one or two MMOs in the past but if he's never experienced actual feelings of adrenaline or exhileration from them, then he was definitely playing the wrong ones. (I dont know, I'm assuming he's not actually arguing from the standpoint of WoW being his only game.. in which cause his entire case is laughable and just goes to prove most of what i'm saying)

The problem with this, is that MMO developers look at WoW as some kind of standard for which to design their games because of all the money it earned. And so far, NONE have succeeded. There is already a WoW on the market, and in order to compete with it they need to design games that fill a niche not already taken by WoW. They need to design MMOs that are actually innovative, virtual worlds.

[Requiem]

In fact, from the start, I've been pretty clear on the audience that WoW appealed to.. :p

[RoXer]

He may have played one or two MMOs in the past but if he's never experienced actual feelings of adrenaline or exhileration from them, then he was definitely playing the wrong ones.

I wonder how he chose his favorite MMO. Maybe World of Warcraft was his favorite color.

[Requiem]

Your mother is my favorite color.

[Requiem]

Implying that your mother likes to be choked till she's blue in the face. :naughty:

[The Destroyer]

I tried Eve Online, it honestly seemed needlessly complicated to me.
Some elements of it are, but I don't really think it's that hard to get to grips with in the long run.

As Req said though, it's not as player friendly a game as some, mainly since it's virtually anything goes, something the community is well aware of. Something keeps sucking me back to it though.

[El Fangel]

Fair enough, but that doesn't take away from the fact that if the game was a piece of shit even the Blizzard hardcores would have left in droves.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, even if the game was completely broken and a piece of shit, it'd still have millions of people playing every day 7 years after release because it's a Blizzard game and the people who play it are blind sheep. It has nothing to do with the quality of any of those games or WoW.

Its worked for CoD so far.

[Nark Order]

New x-pac announced. People are flipping their shit over this but I think it looks incredible.

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[LoDownM]

Until I see more info, I think the talent changes are lame.

[Nark Order]

Like that they went in another direction but the general consensus seems to be negative. Think people really wanted a dark ranger class and thought it was coming.

[LoDownM]

I just don't think it's going to work like they want to, I think raiders are all going to have the same specs and pvpers are all going to have the same specs still.

Also, Demon hunters before Dark Rangers.

[Nark Order]

Hopefully it'll turn it a scenario where having certain moves and talents will be better for certain situations and that it'll be a bit of an equal payoff for whatever route you decide to go. Balancing though is going to be incredibly difficult.

edit- Didn't really explain what I meant. I mean hopefully no combo will be the "this is what you use for PVP" combo. That would defeat the purpose.

[Nark Order]

I do like that they;re giving people a reason to play the game other than dungeons/raids and pvp. Bringing back world bosses, much better daily incentives, etc.