Why Doesn't Jericho's Return Generate the Same Grumblings as the Rock?

[Next Big Thing]

Don't get me wrong, Jericho is my favorite wrestler in WWE and I'm glad he's back. No one in the company can match him in terms of character, mic skills and in ring ability. (Not even CM Punk and all his pipe bombs).

BUT, Jericho's left for good chunks of time and come back to much hype and fanfare just like the Rock. They devote more time and creative effort into his cryptic return vignettes than they do for the matches and promos of some of the midcarders on the main roster. And when he does return, it's not like he's doing so to have programs with and put over young midcarders either.

It's not like Jericho left because he wanted to heel his body and come back stronger either. He's been chasing fame just like the Rock (movies, reality shows on ABC and Fox, game show hosting on ABC... Fozzy :shifty:).

The only difference is that Rock is successful, whereas Jericho has come up short. You'd have to be a fool to believe that Jericho would come back to wrestling if Fozzy went platinum or ABC never cancelled Downfall.

So why do the people who say dumb shit like Rock is only back because he needs to promote movies or needs the money, not make the same argument about Jericho? Shouldn't "the boys" be just as pissed at Jericho getting weeks of hype and build up that he doesn't really need (because you could have Jericho read the phone book and people would cheer) and being put immediately into one of the Mania main events without "making" someone else?

If Jericho leaves again shortly after mania, do you think people might start looking at him the way they look at the Rock?

[CSL]

basically because Chris Jericho is not The Rock. He'd be happy to tell you that himself.

[Captain of Fun]

Probably because when he does come back, he comes back fulltime, working every tv show and live event. He also likely interacts with the locker room a lot more, helping the younger talent out, while it's been said by CM Punk that Rock generally keeps to himself and doesn't interact with anyone.

Also, it's pretty common knowledge that Jericho is all about putting people over himself.

[Nicky Fives]

Newer fans don't know who Jericho is..... most younger fans know Rock as the guy in the movies and the Legend in the SVR video games.....

[Blakeamus]

I was thinking how people bitch and moan that Jericho came back for a few weeks without saying a word...but worship for Crow Sting's silence for 18 months.

[Hanso Amore]

Because the Rock is a bigger star than Jericho, and Jericho has been on TV more times this year alone than the Rock has in 8 years. Its a much more rare commodity.

[Hanso Amore]

Newer fans don't know who Jericho is..... most younger fans know Rock as the guy in the movies and the Legend in the SVR video games.....

What? Of course New Fans know who Jericho is. He wasnt gone that long FFS.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

I was thinking how people bitch and moan that Jericho came back for a few weeks without saying a word...but worship for Crow Sting's silence for 18 months.

wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy different now come on mannnn

Sting's silence was completely natural and perfectly flowed from the story

Jericho's silence was completely random and came from nothing

[Destor]

because jericho's catchphrases were never as catchy

[Double D]

(because you could have Jericho read the phone book and people would cheer)

<a href="http://imgur.com/QWPED"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/QWPED.jpg" alt="" title="Hosted by imgur.com" /></a>

Armbar...;)

[Captain of Fun]

Also, because Jericho beat Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock on the same fucking night. Only a fool would question a man who accomplished such a feat.

[Captain of Fun]

He's also one of only a handful of people to ever pin Chyna in the ring.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

And he beat Goldberg on a nightly basis.

[RiX1024]

Simple.....Dwayne is more of a star than Jericho.

[Hanso Amore]

He's also one of only a handful of people to ever pin Chyna in the ring.

Cant wait for Ivory to come back.

[Shadrick]

Probably because when he does come back, he comes back fulltime, working every tv show and live event. He also likely interacts with the locker room a lot more, helping the younger talent out, while it's been said by CM Punk that Rock generally keeps to himself and doesn't interact with anyone.

Also, it's pretty common knowledge that Jericho is all about putting people over himself.

And Rock ALWAYS put people over when he was in the E and subsequent returns....


Austin...Helms...Lesnar...Evolution....Billy Gunn....I could go on...

[Captain of Fun]

Never said Rock doesn't, but jericho definitely does it more than most.

[Jordan]

Jericho is on house shows and he is bringing his A-Game with him to every show. His promo last night was incredible. I literally do not know anyone who doesn't like Chris Jericho.

[whiteyford]

Probably because when he does come back, he comes back fulltime, working every tv show and live event. He also likely interacts with the locker room a lot more, helping the younger talent out, while it's been said by CM Punk that Rock generally keeps to himself and doesn't interact with anyone.

Also, it's pretty common knowledge that Jericho is all about putting people over himself.

For me its this. Rock is obviously the bigger draw and it dilutes from his 'Mania match if hes on TV wrestling every week but Jericho does the house show circuit and Raw/Smackdown/overseas tapings when hes under contract. I dont think either one should be grumbled at though, Rock has outside interests that are successful and that allow him to promote his wrestling appearances in the mainstream which is probably better for generating buzz than him appearing week in week out on Raw, Jericho not so much but you know he'll put someone over during his time and on the way out so both do more good than harm.

[loopydate]

He's also one of only a handful of people to ever pin Chyna in the ring.

If I'm understanding the plot of her most recent film correctly, this is no longer true.

[CSL]

if Jericho could "make it" in the same vein as Rock, if he could go out and have Fozzy be an "A list" act, be hugely famous, headline proper world tours etc, I'm sure he would and we'd see him twice a year. But he's not

basically because Chris Jericho is not The Rock.

Rock is a once in a generation "talent" that happened to come along in an era with another once in a generation "talent", only his crossover appeal far exceeds the other, as well as every other pro wrestler ever. Jericho isn't remotely close to being on his scale to the casual fan or the rest of the world.

[CSL]

Austin is the other once in a generation talent obvs, not Jericho

[loopydate]

Austin is the other once in a generation talent obvs, not Jericho

I thought you meant Thrasher.

[CSL]

pshhhh, Mosh carried that team son http://www.tpww.net/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

[whiteyford]

I thought you meant Thrasher.

Clearly Mosh was the workhorse of that team:roll:

[whiteyford]

Dammit CSL

[CSL]

they're still working as the Headbangers as I found out recently on Twitter god bless 'em

[whiteyford]

HOF bound

[Shadrick]

Never said Rock doesn't, but jericho definitely does it more than most.

Since we were comparing, you sort of implied it though. But thank you for the clarification.

[JKWJRMON]

Probably because when he does come back, he comes back fulltime, working every tv show and live event. He also likely interacts with the locker room a lot more, helping the younger talent out, while it's been said by CM Punk that Rock generally keeps to himself and doesn't interact with anyone.

Also, it's pretty common knowledge that Jericho is all about putting people over himself.

That pretty much sums it up!! Jericho is a true wrestler, Rock is there for ratings!

[CSL]

wrestling is a business. The best "true wrestler" is the guy that pulls in the highest ratings. That's success in professional wrestling defined, somebody people will buy a ticket or tune in to see.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

"define wrestler"

[Corporate CockSnogger]

"define grumblings"

[CSL]

got some grumblings going on rn looking at the Snickers that is sitting in front of the TV taunting me

[Gertner]

wrestling is a business. The best "true wrestler" is the guy that pulls in the highest ratings. That's success in professional wrestling defined, somebody people will buy a ticket or tune in to see.

WRONG!

The Sport of WRESTLING is about honour, integrity, respect and the fighting spirit.

I'm sorry, but I'm sick of this "Sports Entertainment" crap.

[CSL]

well that's me off to hang my head in shame in some corner never to be heard from again :(

[#1-norm-fan]

wrestling is a business. The best "true wrestler" is the guy that pulls in the highest ratings. That's success in professional wrestling defined, somebody people will buy a ticket or tune in to see.

I think you're really making your definitions too broad.

By that logic, if Tom Cruise started appearing regularly in WWE, he would be the best wrestler in the world since he would surely draw like crazy. Hell, he'd probably be the greatest wrestler of all time.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Tom Cruise would be a vanilla midget.

[CSL]

I think you're really making your definitions too broad.

By that logic, if Tom Cruise started appearing regularly in WWE, he would be the best wrestler in the world since he would surely draw like crazy. Hell, he'd probably be the greatest wrestler of all time.

nah, you're making my definition broad by applying something like that to it. You know exactly what I mean.

[#1-norm-fan]

I know what you mean. And my example is valid. The only issue you could have with it is "Well, Tom Cruise would never actually do it" but that's irrelevant. If he did, he would automatically fit your definition of a great wrestler.

[CSL]

I know what you mean. And my example is valid. The only issue you could have with it is "Well, Tom Cruise would never actually do it" but that's irrelevant. If he did, he would automatically fit your definition of a great wrestler.

for your sake, if he actually did it and was at a level where he was "good" enough to be given a role as an active guy by Vince and got over (the "celebrity sheen" would wear off pretty quickly if he was on TV every week) then yeah, of course. You seem to be implying that Tom Cruise could train to be a wrestler and start as an active guy for Vince and remain over by default because he's already famous. And that's not how it works. Using your implication, he'd be great guest star. So yeah, not really valid at all.

[#1-norm-fan]

He'd appear on TV every month or so and draw huge. I'm not implying any qualifiers to it. You're doing that. He could wrestle once in a while as to not let the "celebrity sheen" wear off and he'd draw every time because of who he is.

I mean, is the job of everyone in entertainment just to draw in money/sales or are you making an exception for a wrestler? If you do use the same definition for all entertainment then would that mean David Hasselhoff is an amazing singer (the man has sold a shit ton of records worldwide), or Jersey Shore is a great TV show?

[BollywoodSingh]

Tom Cruise would draw for a few shows but fans will not continue to pay to see him in WWE just because he's a big movie star. He would still have to connect with the audience like any other wrestler.

[CSL]

He'd appear on TV every month or so and draw huge.

After the initial stuff, no he wouldn't, he'd then have to get over/connect. And that kind of negates the rest.

But again for your sake/reply, like film, music etc, wrestling is a unique entity in entertainment while also maintaining some basic similar traits as other fields. Al Pacino is never going to be on Jersey Shore and The Situation is never going to be the lead in the next critically acclaimed, monster box office Christopher Nolan film.

[CSL]

Tom Cruise would draw for a few shows but fans will not continue to pay to see him in WWE just because he's a big movie star. He would still have to connect with the audience like any other wrestler.

[#1-norm-fan]

Okay so... to clear this up really well and see what page we stand on...

Would you say Hulk Hogan and The Rock are/were better wrestlers than CM Punk? Considering both are/were significantly bigger draws.

[CSL]

lol you can't work that out from what I've posted and everything I ever post here? were these responses really just another "define wrestler" gimmick again?

[Aaronp43]

Because Chris jericho is awesome and the rock sucks!!

[XL]

Okay so... to clear this up really well and see what page we stand on...

Would you say Hulk Hogan and The Rock are/were better wrestlers than CM Punk? Considering both are/were significantly bigger draws.

"Looking at it from a business standpoint..."

[Destor]

draw power will always have to take a large portion of goat conversations but the conversation can never be limited to that factor alone.

once you get into the convo of top draws (and thus goat level workers) the other pieces of the pie become relevent again.

example: hogans ability to draw alone out classes 99% of workers. but once you get into guys in the upper tier of making money things like workrate and the like start holding water again. thats why a guy like ric flair is the true goat. he drew comparable money (many years out drawing vince and co.,) could out work hogan, could out talk hogan, etc, etc etc.

...but jericho isnt on the same level as the rock is terms of drawing. so while his goat level workrate and mic skills let him enter the convo with guys like the rock he will always lose the debate. but we should never be so black and white. box office sales alone define goat no more than in wrestling. you have to take everything into consideration.

[XL]

Tom Cruise would be a vanilla (sky) midget.

[#1-norm-fan]

lol you can't work that out from what I've posted and everything I ever post here?

Yes, but I was trying to draw an ultimate conclusion so I was starting with that question. So I'll take that as a "yes"...

And I'll follow up with your definition of "wrestler" clearly being different. Just like in any other form of entertainment, everyone has their idea of who is better. It comes down to their opinion. Could be a valid opinion, could be batshit crazy but who draws more shouldn't come into the equation since so much more goes into that.

CM Punk was once a jobber while Eugene was actually over and making WWE money. Punk now draws while Eugene is jobbing in Ring Ka King. CM Punk did not suddenly BECOME a better wrestler than Eugene. Their situations changed. To narrow it down to "better draw = better wrestler" is to say the opposite of that and I don't see how you can have that definition. It's just nonsensical.

I could also bring in the fact that Vince chooses not to even consider his guys wrestlers anymore so you could actually say the best wrestler in the world by your definition is in TNA.

[#1-norm-fan]

box office sales alone define goat no more than in wrestling. you have to take everything into consideration.

Basically the gist of what I'm saying.

[CSL]

why shouldn't drawing power come into it? the majority of guys who make it to the highest spots/are the highest draws can do it all, especially in this day and age. Austin, Rock, Triple H, Taker, Angle, Bret, Shawn, these are all guys who will go down as some of the greatest of all time alongside Hogan, alongside Flair and drawing power doesn't necessarily come into it with all of those. You're talking like I'm saying that The Great Khali will go down as a better wrestler than Eddie Guerrero.

The Eugene equation is is pretty ridiculous. You don't base a wrestlers legacy off a single tiny fraction of his career so it doesn't really make any sense at all. I and many others could have told you at the time Eugene was wrestling Triple H on PPV that his gimmick had a limited shelf life and was the main reason he was over while there was every chance CM Punk could go on to do great things (which he has) I think it's safe to say John Cena isn't going to be running around India wearing a nurse's uniform in 10 years.

And show me where I specifically said "better draw=better wrestler", you jumped to that conclusion/assumed that was what I meant. Destor's post pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[CSL]

wrestling is a business. The best "true wrestler" is the guy that pulls in the highest ratings. That's success in professional wrestling defined, somebody people will buy a ticket or tune in to see.

and before you quote this like a sneaky fascist, the basic sentiment rings true at the highest level/when comparing guys of that stature and talent. In their terms, Rock's drawing power and other characteristics place him above Jericho, who is the stronger worker.

[#1-norm-fan]

why shouldn't drawing power come into it? the majority of guys who make it to the highest spots/are the highest draws can do it all, especially in this day and age. Austin, Rock, Triple H, Taker, Angle, Bret, Shawn, these are all guys who will go down as some of the greatest of all time alongside Hogan, alongside Flair. You're talking like I'm saying that The Great Khali will go down as a better wrestler than Eddie Guerrero.


If Khali is a bigger draw than Eddie, isn't that EXACTLY what you're saying? The whole discussion is that you made it a point to say that the best wrestler IS the one who draws the most. That's it. How would that not be accurate?

The Eugene equation is is pretty ridiculous. You don't base a wrestlers legacy off a single tiny fraction of his career so it doesn't really make any sense at all. I and many others could have told you at the time Eugene was wrestling Triple H on PPV that his gimmick had a limited shelf life and was the main reason he was over while there was every chance CM Punk could go on to do great things (which he has) I think it's safe to say John Cena isn't going to be running around India wearing a nurse's uniform in 10 years.

I didn't mention anyone's legacy. In fact I specifically said that by your definition, it would mean that Punk BECAME a better wrestler. As in it was based on that time period. The better draw was the better wrestler. If you're gonna base it on who is the better draw, it's gonna fluctuate. There isn't any consistency.

And show me where I specifically said "better draw=better wrestler", you jumped to that conclusion/assumed that was what I meant. Destor's post pretty much hit the nail on the head.

"The best 'true wrestler' is the guy that pulls in the highest ratings."

Does that not say better draw = better wrestler? You're more than welcome to clarify but that seems pretty clear as day. lol

[#1-norm-fan]

Haha. Me and my sneaky fascism for quoting you exactly.

[#1-norm-fan]

and before you quote this like a sneaky fascist, the basic sentiment rings true at the highest level/when comparing guys of that stature and talent. In their terms, Rock's drawing power and other characteristics place him above Jericho, who is the stronger worker.

If you're adding these qualifiers to make it not as simple as "the best wrestler is the one who draws more", then fine. My entire contention was with that point basically.

[Emperor Smeat]

I think it also has to do that while Jericho's past 2 returns have started out slowly, they pick up a lot of interest once he actually gets involved in a feud people want such as him finally starting the Punk-Jericho feud. He did the same when he came back in the vest and short hair that didn't really pick up any steam until after the Orton feud.

The Rock's limited schedule does hurt and I'd assume the goosebumps along with the crowd reactions are affecting him a lot more than people are assuming considering he's been out of a ring for years.

Promo-wise, its not like the Rock has been just giving horrible promos since the earlier promos had him mainly on the attack while Cena was defending which benefited him a lot. Now the majority of the promos have Cena attacking with the Rock primarily responding which have helped Cena a lot. I'd also assume the WWE doesn't want The Rock to just destroy their top star's image if he just unleashed week after week considering they still rely on Cena as their long term money-making star.

[CSL]

If Khali is a bigger draw than Eddie, isn't that EXACTLY what you're saying? The whole discussion is that you made it a point to say that the best wrestler IS the one who draws the most. That's it. How would that not be accurate?

Eddie was a bad example, I picked the worst headliner in recent times against a "beloved superworker" without really thinking of Eddie's time on top. The sentiment that you seem to think I mean "whoever is on top is better than everybody below" stands however.

I didn't mention anyone's legacy. In fact I specifically said that by your definition, it would mean that Punk BECAME a better wrestler. As in it was based on that time period. The better draw was the better wrestler. If you're gonna base it on who is the better draw, it's gonna fluctuate. There isn't any consistency.

This is the most ridiculously pedantic and off the mark thing you've posted in the entire thread given I was comparing The Rock and Chris Jericho.

"The best 'true wrestler' is the guy that pulls in the highest ratings."

Does that not say better draw = better wrestler? You're more than welcome to clarify but that seems pretty clear as day. lol

If you take that statement and remove all of the context, without reading anything else written in the thread or the post I was responding to and most importantly forget that the comparison involved was The Rock and Chris Jericho, two of the best and most successful professional wrestlers of all time, absolutely.

It's kind of like you're "playing dumb"/ignoring logic for arguments sake.

[CSL]

this is more ridiculous given that in my eyes, the greatest professional wrestler of all time is Shawn Michaels, who down to him being so fucking good bell to bell for such a long period of time whilst "ranking highly" on a bunch of other factors puts him over Hogan, Flair, Austin etc.

[#1-norm-fan]

The quote is pretty cut and dry in context or out. Too cut and dry. That was my whole point. The Punk/Eugene analogy was just to show how wide of a range the theory can not work on.

[#1-norm-fan]

I think HBK is the greatest wrestler of all time too. And drawing power just doesn't come into mind when making that decision. He did his job ridiculously well. Drawing power can usually come as a result of that but dissecting that clouds the issue of actual skill.

[Destor]

this is more ridiculous given that in my eyes, the greatest professional wrestler of all time is Shawn Michaels, who down to him being so fucking good bell to bell for such a long period of time whilst "ranking highly" on a bunch of other factors puts him over Hogan, Flair, Austin etc.

and he didnt become an upper tier draw until 2004 and even then it was a low point in revenue (not as low as his first run at all but still low compairing HBK to guys like austin flair hogan dusty etc.)

[CSL]

that good http://www.tpww.net/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

[dingdongyo]

i was happy to see both rock and jericho return. and both of their returns were kind of disappointing.

[#1-norm-fan]

Jericho's return has been depressing mainly because of the hype. I get the feeling WWE starts a lot of major things with no end point in mind and it just peters out. Like Cena's hate embracing and the stuff with Ryder and Kane and Eve. I definitely feel like they started something assuming "we'll think of an amazing end-point later" and never did.

That's kinda how I feel about Jericho's return. These videos had seemingly so much "deep meaning" that apparently never actually meant much. His silent promos were cool but they definitely gave the sense that there was some awesome reason behind it and it ended with "Haha, trolled you just cuz" and that was it. The Punk feud with be awesome. The intrigue of the return and the aftermath kinda came and went with a whimper though.

[The MAC]

tom cruise is already a star albeit from another genre of entertainment. If he start out in wrestling then it would be a different story.

[Dirk Ziggler]

Newer fans don't know who Jericho is..... most younger fans know Rock as the guy in the movies and the Legend in the SVR video games.....

Who are these newer fans? And why are they so retarded that they are unaware of popular wrestlers from the past? The one thing about wrestling fans, is we know and respect the superstars of the previous generations. When legends like Piper, or Dugan come out. Do they not get a huge pop? What about when there's a shout out to Brett Hart, or Randy Savage and they get a huge pop simply by the mere mention of their name. The mass majority of fans are aware. And for the few that aren't aware of past superstars, well they are the minority, so why even take them into consideration.

[RVDmark]

His promo last night was incredible. I literally do not know anyone who doesn't like Chris Jericho.

Given he is playing a heel, he's not doing very well then.:lol:

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Cause Jericho is wrestling and the Rock is talking.

[Blakeamus]

wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy different now come on mannnn

Sting's silence was completely natural and perfectly flowed from the story

Jericho's silence was completely random and came from nothing

I was being sarcastic.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'd assume it is because Jericho goes into full work mode, whereas The Rock only does a few shows here and there. Personally, I think the WWE should be thankful to have both.

[Mr. Nerfect]

And if Tom Cruise trained to become a professional wrestler, could work, promo and connect with audiences, the WWE would be absolutely nuts not to sign him.