Supreme Preaents (Thats right, Preaents, not Presents): The Raw Thread 02/04/12: Live Cena Suicide

[Immortal Moose]

F5!!!

[Corndad]

F f'n 5.

[DirtyD]

F5 I missed you

[Innovator]

F-5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CSL]

still knows where the hard cam is

[Rock Bottom]

I'd fucking kill to see Rock vs. Brock 2

[jkman61494]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy mother of god, this was the best Raw since the days of Bret, HBK, DX and the Nation of Domination.

OOOOOOOOOHHHMYYYYYYGOD.

[Malfeitor]

Good fucking god tonight was amazing.

[DirtyD]

THAT WAS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!

[CSL]

All the old boys are coming back to shit on this sorry ass guy

Brock debuted like 2 months before Cena

[Immortal Moose]

Fucking perfect ending!

[ClockShot]

Thank you, and good night.

[Rock Bottom]

Incredible. Now if only Kurt Angle were here.

I don't mind this blast from the past shit. Taker, HHH, Michaels, Rock, Lesnar, bring them all on please.

[Corndad]

I am so fuckin pumped right now.

[Blakeamus]

YES! YES! YES!

[Seth82]

Lesnar is back

and Cena is a dead man haha

[Innovator]

Awesome ending

[Rock Bottom]

Brock debuted like 2 months before Cena

Yes, but Brock wasn't pushed to the moon by default like John Cena. Brock Lesnar is in a different league entirely.

[#1-norm-fan]

Lesnar vs Cena and Rock vs Punk for the WWE Title would definitely be a step up from this year's WM. Could be epic.

[Immortal Moose]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Did someone say business has picked up?! F5!</p>&mdash; Jim Ross (@JRsBBQ) <a href="https://twitter.com/JRsBBQ/status/187014704722489347" data-datetime="2012-04-03T03:12:34+00:00">April 3, 2012</a></blockquote>
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[Cool King]

Absolutely amazing Raw.

[Immortal Moose]

Agreed, great RAW.

[DaVe]

damn.

this crowd has made that moment and the entire night so much more amazing. god daaamn

[CSL]

Yes, but Brock wasn't pushed to the moon by default like John Cena. Brock Lesnar is in a different league entirely.

Brock that won the top title in the company within like 4 months?

[Blakeamus]

Amazing Post WM RAW!

[jkman61494]

I haven't been this psyched about a Raw in many many many years.

And you know what did it? The crowd. 150% the crowd.

THAT is what has been missing from the WWE's good 'ole days. Not TV-14 raunchy Raws. Not over the top gimmicks. But a crowd that rivaled the Attitude era.

Thank you Miami crowd. You made this one of the most enjoyable two hours of wrestling I have ever seen.

[Seth82]

great episode of RAW

and the crowd was amazing

[Corporate CockSnogger]

That was mediocre

[Jura]

Love the atmosphere of wrestling right now. Crowd was hot like the good old days, Rock was back, HHH and Taker getting it on and now Brock is back.

[Crimson]

Awesome awesome RAW

[Shisen Kopf]

They need to give Brock a manager bc he kinda sucks on the mic.

[Crimson]

I haven't been this psyched about a Raw in many many many years.

And you know what did it? The crowd. 150% the crowd.

THAT is what has been missing from the WWE's good 'ole days. Not TV-14 raunchy Raws. Not over the top gimmicks. But a crowd that rivaled the Attitude era.

Thank you Miami crowd. You made this one of the most enjoyable two hours of wrestling I have ever seen.

Agree, great crowd.

[#1-norm-fan]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/avTpqN1XlOg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Revenge for Eric Angle comes in 364 days.

[jkman61494]

Can someone please upload this entire episode on the net? Does this come up on Hulu? Does wwe.com replay episodes? This is the rare kind of show that you need your friends to see.

[Blakeamus]

Miami made it fun the entire night! Boy that pop was insane when the split second Lesnar's entrance hit!

[Corndad]

My feelings on the whole night...

http://i.imgur.com/oReyr.gif

[dronepool]

RAW was great, damn.

[MoFo]

My fucking heart rate is thru the roof

Best fucking Raw ever

Thank you WWE

[Gonzo]

That was some good shit.

[Raven Reaper]

Always been a Brock Lesnar fan since Smackdown 2001. WELCOME BACK, BROCK!!!! BRING THE PAIN BACK TO WHERE IT BELONGS!! GOODBYE MMA-UFC!!!

[road doggy dogg]

What a perfect Raw. Crowd was amazing all night. SI! SI! SI!
crossrine

[CSL]

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vE2jr0Qfooo?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vE2jr0Qfooo?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

I'd check it quick before it gets taken down

[weather vane]

Wow. If every show was like that I would be back into wrestling big time.

WWE is really starting to move in the right direction as of late.

[Gonzo]

Also, I'm sure its been said, but Michael Cole is fucking god awful on commentary. Fucking hate the guy.

[Blakeamus]

My feelings on the whole night...

http://i.imgur.com/oReyr.gif

Gonna use this avatar in the meantime...that is all I can say about tonight's RAW!

[CSL]

what was that about 18 seconds?

[Cool King]

Also, I'm sure its been said, but Michael Cole is fucking god awful on commentary. Fucking hate the guy.

"Ooooh My!"

[Cool King]

The WWE's Facebook has been posting screen caps from Raw all night.

They posted an image which was pretty much asking to be "Otunga'd".

http://oi43.tinypic.com/259lg0y.jpg

[BollywoodSingh]

Yes, but Brock wasn't pushed to the moon by default like John Cena. Brock Lesnar is in a different league entirely.

What? I don't think anyone in WWE history got pushed so hard so quickly as Lesnar was. Right from his debut, they were grooming to be a main eventer. They put him over The Rock, Hogan, and Undertaker all within like 6-7 months of debuting. 4-5 months into his debut, it was already pretty much decided he was going to main event the next year's Wrestlemania. Cena didn't become a main eventer until almost 3 years after debuting.

[jkman61494]

Does WWE show the Raws in their entirety on wwe.com? Can someone link the entire episode? This is something I'd love my friends to see who missed it tonight. It was a once in a decade type of Raw.

[BollywoodSingh]

So how long is this "miz undefeated at mania" gonna keep going? Edge had his streak at 9 and wasn't mentioned once until he lost right?

Edge got to 5-0 before losing his first Wrestlemania match (the Money in the Bank match at Wrestlemania 23).

[Juan]

Does WWE show the Raws in their entirety on wwe.com? Can someone link the entire episode? This is something I'd love my friends to see who missed it tonight. It was a once in a decade type of Raw.

youtube.com

[Shisen Kopf]

I'm just glad my stories are getting good again. It was poo poo for a while there.

[#1-norm-fan]

To bring the mood down a little, I do kinda feel bad for all the kids watching their hero just get made to look like shit all of a sudden. lol. Watched WrestleMania with about 150 people at a club last night and saw at least 3 little kids crying their eyes out as they were leaving.

[Shisen Kopf]

youtube.com

ustedtubo.mx

[jkman61494]

youtube.com

And every video will be taken down within a few hours.

[Blakeamus]

Needs more Heyman now...would be epic for Heyman to pull out shoot style promos on Cena...

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Yo niggs I missed Raw because I was watching basketballs. Did I miss anything?

[JimmyMess]

Brock Lesnar.

[Lock Jaw]

So, why did Cena not try to fight off of Lesnar's shoulders?

Also, Punk/Henry was a surprisingly good match. Hope they remember this, and put Henry in line for a shot after Jericho.

[Lock Jaw]

Also... was watching this video

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vE2jr0Qfooo?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vE2jr0Qfooo?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

I'd check it quick before it gets taken down

And started to scroll down after the initial music hit and pop.

"Ooooh My!"

Then read the above post at the exact moment that Michael Cole said "Oooooh My!" in the video.

It was pretty hilarious, but I guess you had to be there.

[Blakeamus]

The WWE's Facebook has been posting screen caps from Raw all night.

They posted an image which was pretty much asking to be "Otunga'd".

http://oi43.tinypic.com/259lg0y.jpg

DDT APPROVED!
<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v679/crazeaholic/?action=view&amp;current=259lg0y.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/crazeaholic/259lg0y.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[James Steele]

Fucking amazing. Brock Lesnar may hate the wrestling business and its lifestyle, but he is just so fucking natural at it. Fuck, imagine if JR was calling that.

[Lock Jaw]

http://s10.postimage.org/e6i38880n/Untitled_2.gif

PICTURE PERFECT DROPKICK! VINTAGE JERICHO!

[#1-norm-fan]

I could have gone for like 10 more minutes of Alex Riley squashage.

[Mr. C]

WHAT A RAW. Better than WrestleMania.

The Rock’s promo was fine.

Triple Threat was fun.

I loved everything about Lord Tensai. Love the look, loved the match/moves.

CM Punk vs. Mark Henry was a good match. Really enjoyed it.

Cody Rhodes vs. Kofi Kingston wasn’t much, but I liked Big Show turning the tables on Rhodes.

The Miz vs. Zack Ryder was fine.

John Cena’s speech was good, and then BROCK LESNAR! I was thinking the whole story was an April Fools’ prank, but man, it’s pretty cool he’s actually back, and I’m intrigued about it. Very eager to see where things go from here.

10/10

[#1-norm-fan]

WHAT A RAW. Better than WrestleMania.


Woah there. Let's not go too crazy. lol

[Mr. C]

Woah there. Let's not go too crazy. lol

I gave WrestleMania an 8/10, but Brock Lesnar returning gives RAW an automatic 10/10.

[KayfabeMan]

I was there live.

RAW was like a 4/10.

And all 4 of those points belong to Brock Lesnar and Daniel Bryan.

[#1-norm-fan]

Don't you hate WWE?

[KayfabeMan]

Yes.

I explained why I was going in the thread where I addressed it.

But to quick explain again, was chaperoning a special needs / youth group that got tix from WWE, so agreed to take them as I'm good with them and here in the local area to help.

But back to RAW, yeah we spoke to ALOT of people at RAW who weren't thrilled. They were actually staying with the chants and whatnot to try to have some fun while watching but were stressing how disappointed they were with the bouts.

They mainly wanted to see Daniel Bryan - who got a HUGE series of pops when he came out for his dark match after the show and everyone was hanging on to see Brock at the end. There was a group of 5 people in the section next to us who actually got up and went to the concourse level to hang for a while and came back towards the end b/c they were bored.

[#1-norm-fan]

It was an amazing Raw. If the crowd had to fake it then good, because they helped make one of the better Raws in a long time. lol

[KayfabeMan]

For those who may not have read yet -

After the show dark match results:

Daniel Bryan, Cody Rhodes and Kane lost a 6-man to Big Show, Randy Orton, Sheamus.

Shameless hit the kick on Bryan and pinned him at the end.

HUGE "YES" and "NO" chants for literally just about every move in the match.

Bryan worked the first 5 mins. or so of the 6-man before a tag out to Cody, and shortly after it a "We want Bryan" chant broke out. As it did later in the match when Kane was in. Show and Orton were laughing at this whenever they were on the apron.

[Fignuts]

Can't believe they didn't acknowledge that Tensai is A-Train. At first I thought they were totally going to, the way he came out in a mask, and dramatically removed it.

I like the ring gear. Looks neat. Dude needs a new finisher tho.

[KayfabeMan]

It was an amazing Raw. If the crowd had to fake it then good, because they helped make one of the better Raws in a long time. lol

I agree that the crowd did it.

It's DEFINITELY not a total Miami crowd, because they'd be 50/50.

A majority of the PPL we spoke with outside were hangovers from Mania yesterday, so I think that that nice blend with definitely a number of locals made it a louder crowd.

Also helped that a good amount of PPL out there were literally wasted lol.

[KayfabeMan]

Can't believe they didn't acknowledge that Tensai is A-Train. At first I thought they were totally going to, the way he came out in a mask, and dramatically removed it.

I like the ring gear. Looks neat. Dude needs a new finisher tho.

Could the A-Train / Albert / Prince Albert chants be heard on TV?

[Fignuts]

I could have gone for like 10 more minutes of Alex Riley squashage.

Seriously.

Automatically a Tensai mark now, thanks to the utter destruction of that boring waste of space.

[Fignuts]

Could the A-Train / Albert / Prince Albert chants be heard on TV?

Loud and clear.

[KayfabeMan]

Seriously.

Automatically a Tensai mark now, thanks to the utter destruction of that boring waste of space.

Yeah that fucker needs to learn how to sell too.

Totally pathetic responses to all of Tensai's moves / selling was horrible.

[KayfabeMan]

Loud and clear.

:y:

[#1-norm-fan]

Even without the crowd though, there was a lot of great stuff throughout the show. I think your lack of interest hampered it.

[#1-norm-fan]

Yeah that fucker needs to learn how to sell too.

Totally pathetic responses to all of Tensai's moves / selling was horrible.

Oh you're just scratching the surface of the things Alex Riley needs to learn. lol

[Droford]

like I said in chat, its ashame there can't be any "SHAVE YOUR BACK" chants since apparently he did just that during his time in Japan. I guess the Japanese dont like back hair on their wrestlers?

[Juan]

Can't believe they didn't acknowledge that Tensai is A-Train. At first I thought they were totally going to, the way he came out in a mask, and dramatically removed it.

I like the ring gear. Looks neat. Dude needs a new finisher tho.

They didn't mention his old name, but they did acknowledge that he was a former WWE Superstar

[dronepool]

How many Japanese guys have hairy backs?

[Skippord]

Can't believe they didn't acknowledge that Tensai is A-Train. At first I thought they were totally going to, the way he came out in a mask, and dramatically removed it.

I like the ring gear. Looks neat. Dude needs a new finisher tho.
well they did say he was a former WWE star who went to Japan to get better

close enough I guess

[KayfabeMan]

Oh you're just scratching the surface of the things Alex Riley needs to learn. lol

I am 1000% sure of your comments sir. :y: :)

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

More than they did for Golga and Repo Man.

[#1-norm-fan]

They had masks though. You weren't supposed to ever notice that they look exactly like a former wrestler. Would have been odd for them not to mention this one at all.

[#1-norm-fan]

Especially with him being a former champion.

[Fignuts]

Didn't notice the "former wwe superstar" comment.

[BILLO]

Was there live. Plenty of excited aussies and we are loud fuckers. Daniel bryan chants were mental all night. was so loud there. bryan coming out at the end and laughing the whole time he was wrestling was great. Man is a legend.

[Rock Bottom]

Brock that won the top title in the company within like 4 months?

Yes. It wasn't by default. Brock Lesnar was a beast who got over because he was a beast. He fit. John Cena is a boring sack of shit.

[Rock Bottom]

I mean, John Cena is to wrestling as unfunny people are to Showtime at the Apollo. Brock Lesnar is an angry, hostile black crowd.

[Rock Bottom]

Yo niggs I missed Raw because I was watching basketballs. Did I miss anything?

My advice, don't read shit, just find and watch somehow

[Mr. Nerfect]

Holy fuck, cannot wait for this edition of RAW. The crowd sounds insane, and like they made everything. Chris Jericho has really amped up his feud with CM Punk, which is awesome.

In a weird sort of way, the WWE short-changing Bryan might be one of the best things that's ever happened to him. It might die off, and it seems like the WWE may be inclined to keep Bryan off television for a bit to let the chants and such die down, but they could totally capitalise right now and make Bryan one of the biggest babyfaces in the entire promotion.

[Mike the Metal Ed]

Of all the times to fall asleep before the end of Raw. Missed everything after Cody v Kofi.

I missed the return of Abraham Washington, fuck. :mad:

[XL]

After VSG kindly hooked me up with a stream...I fell asleep before Rock opened his mouth.

[El Fangel]

I feel asleep 8 mins before it started :(

[XL]

You don't even watch anymore anyway.

[VSG]

You both deserve it :mad:

[XL]

TBF, I'd been up since 5.30am, worked from 6am-8pm and just watched Mania. Didn't really expect to last through to 4am for the end of Raw.

Thanks for the stream though, rep given.

[VSG]

That made my rep a nice even number :y:

[El Fangel]

I'm in the same boat (boot,eh?) Co-worker off for a few days, so long hours. Going to watch on YT later.

[Autobahn]

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1FFB1BEC8840E742&feature=plcp

Someone has posted all of Raw already on YT

[Autobahn]

Also Tensai stole Kurrgan the Interrogator's finisher with that hand claw thing...

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Still watching Raw as we speak. Just enjoyed the first Mark Henry match since whenever D'Lo Brown running powerbombed him. Awesome match and kind of surprised.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I kind of hope that next week John Laurinaitis forces CM Punk to defend the WWE Title against Mark Henry in a Steel Cage Match -- so "Punk can't get himself counted out to retain his title." The finish sees Henry grab Punk as he is trying to escape, and Punk manages to fight Henry off and send him crashing to the mat. Chris Jericho runs out with a steel chair and begs Punk to come off the cage so he can get whacked with it. Punk then defiantly hits a Savage Elbow into Henry and pins him.

A) It gives Punk a credible victory over a monster heel.

B) It continues to build to Punk vs. Jericho at Extreme Rules.

C) It would be fucking awesome.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Lord Tensai's gimmick is kinda lame, love his moves though.

Everything else was brilliant. Really hoping Brock destroys Cena to give him more self-doubt and a more interesting character.

[MoFo]

Was they chanting "shave yr back" to Tensai during his match?

Pretty sure I heard it along with the A-Train chants :lol:

[Xero]

Haven't seen anything of RAW yet except for Lesnar. And holy shit. I kinda spoiled it for myself by checking Twitter, so I just went and watched it, but fuck man. That was amazing. And the crowd went legit insane. Probably the biggest immediate pop since the days of Austin's height. Yes, it was a smarter/hardcore fanbase, but holy shit the pop and chants were amazing.

So happy to see Brock back. As much of an asshole he is, as much of a crybaby he can be, I can't wait to see this beast wrestle again.

[MoFo]

Dont know if anyone already posted this but the dark match is fucking amazing, crowd rips everyone but Danielson to bits

:lol: @ the kicks @ 8:20 -

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fMBZJtUOi94" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Tornado]

Going to Raw week after next in London, the YES! chants had better make their way across the Atlantic.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Wonder how many kids herd fuck you for the first time during that fuck you Cena chant.

[XL]

That Dark Match was hilarous.

[Innovator]

http://www.barbershopwindow.com/IMAGES/ARRIVE.%20YES.%20LEAVE..jpg

[Jura]

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aMFXMlB37CQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

M. Bryan

[Lock Jaw]

http://i.imgur.com/gxZUl.gif

[Jura]

Dolph was still able to do a sit-up in midair before falling down.

[Cool King]

http://i.imgur.com/otGBQ.gif

[Cool King]

http://i.imgur.com/eivUx.gif

[Rammsteinmad]

That Daniel Bryan dark match/segment was fucking incredible. The true definition of an overnight sensation.

Overall Raw was fantastic this week. One of the best and most memorable Raw in years. Mostly due to the crowd, but everything just went really well. The matches themselves were pretty average, but the booking and the promos and of course, the crowd, made this an incredible show.

[LoDownM]

Wasn't able to watch last night, watching now and loving the YES! chants :lol:

[Gertner]

That might have been the best Raw I've ever seen

[Flash Funk]

The responsibility falls on you tonight, Smackdown! crowd. Continue the YES! chants, force Vince's hand, and let the clusterfuck of WM 28 be DB's catalyst to superstardom.

Oh and... BROCK LESNAR

[#1-norm-fan]

I think Cena needs to disappear for a while, make a surprise return to go after Brock and do the sporadic appearance thing. It's the best thing for his character to not have him on tv every week. Lets guys like Punk get more over too and reach that next level.

[#1-norm-fan]

Speaking of Punk, I would give my left testicle to see him beat Rock next year at WrestleMania and retain the WWE title.

[Team Sheep]

Damn, gutted I missed Raw. Had to leave Miami yesterday to get back for classes/couldn't really afford to stay an extra night. Crazy crowd. All I saw were British football shirts (nothing new for Wrestlemania weekend) but wow. Seemed like the 50/50 of Americans and internationals made it pretty special. Goes to show how truly happy everyone was with Wrestlemania this year as they turned up at Raw the next night in amazing spirit. It's never usually like that.

[#1-norm-fan]

Raw makes me miss the Monday night wars. It's ridiculous NOW to think that grown men used to get together in droves and throw parties for wrestling on Monday night but last night's Raw would have been worthy of one.

[Rammsteinmad]

Surely Jericho was ribbed by people when he got backstage. :(

[Jura]

Ribbed for his pleasure.

[MIZantine Empire]

i managed to avoid reading/seeing anything about brock lesner before mania, and raw..that part at the end with cena, i kept telling myself how bad i wanted to hear lesners music hit, just to see the crowds reaction..sure enough, goosebumps..that had to be one of the biggest pops ever..

[Cool King]

http://www.barbershopwindow.com/IMAGES/ARRIVE.%20YES.%20LEAVE..jpg

Procrastination is a wonderful thing.

It helps me make things like this....

http://oi44.tinypic.com/hrin0y.jpg

[VSG]

Whose body is that?

[Cool King]

Austin's.

Original image:

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llluj4LALn1qiw2bko1_500.jpg

[LoDownM]

Gonna be disappointed if the YES!'s don't continue from the crowd next week.

[Raven Reaper]

^ Then we'll yell, "NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!"

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nNhTzUNr9jM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Hahaha. Love the part where he shut up AJ and pointed out the ring for her.. Awww.

Surprised Sheamus got the heel treatment pop from the crowd sooo much.

[Rock Bottom]

What? I don't think anyone in WWE history got pushed so hard so quickly as Lesnar was. Right from his debut, they were grooming to be a main eventer. They put him over The Rock, Hogan, and Undertaker all within like 6-7 months of debuting. 4-5 months into his debut, it was already pretty much decided he was going to main event the next year's Wrestlemania. Cena didn't become a main eventer until almost 3 years after debuting.

Okay, I'll word it differently.

Brock Lesnar got pushed because he's Brock Lesnar.

John Cena got pushed for lack of a better option. Make more sense now?

[taker707]

being in this crowd was off the chain amazing . Seeing brock return live was the best

[#1-norm-fan]

Okay, I'll word it differently.

Brock Lesnar got pushed because he's Brock Lesnar.

John Cena got pushed for lack of a better option. Make more sense now?

What? John Cena was on fire when he got his first push leading into WrestleMania 21. Everyone loved him.

[James Steele]

What? John Cena was on fire when he got his first push leading into WrestleMania 21. Everyone loved him.

...and it lasted all of 8 months until people were shitting on him. John Cena was over, but he given that super-push because Brock and others had left and forced them to rush Cena, Orton, and Batista to the top and give them megapushes.

[#1-norm-fan]

I said nothing about how it ended up or how on fire he was 8 months later...

But he was easily the next big thing when he first got his push. His character becoming more "Hogan-esque" in it's mass pandering and the fact that WWE has been so shitty at long-term booking for so long screwed it up but you can't tell me he was simply "the best option". That's completely downplaying how over he was.

[James Steele]

Santino is just as fucking over right now, but he isn't ready to be thrust into that spot.

[#1-norm-fan]

There's a pretty big difference between Santino and John Cena circa 2004. lol

[James Steele]

There's a pretty big difference between Santino and John Cena circa 2004. lol

They both are cartoonish characters who are over huge, getting great crowd reactions, have gimmicky moves over, held midcard championships, and been teased in main event matches with success.

[#1-norm-fan]

? Umm... define "cartoonish". lol

You can't seriously tell me you don't see how John Cena could have been looked at as the next mega-star in wrestling and Santino isn't. Jesus. They're night and day. Cena was a serious contender who was actually having serious, good matches and feuds in the main event with guys like Lesnar and The Undertaker. Santino is a comedy character who was generally getting squashed and used as fodder and then had one week where he tasted a main event tease and then the next night was beaten in like one minute by the champion to re-establish his place.

Really, James Steele? Really?

[#1-norm-fan]

Oh, and I forgot to add in the fact that Santino got his tease just days before the PPV because someone got injured and they needed a replacement for a SIX PERSON MATCH.

[James Steele]

? Umm... define "cartoonish". lol

You can't seriously tell me you don't see how John Cena could have been looked at as the next mega-star in wrestling and Santino isn't. Jesus. They're night and day. Cena was a serious contender who was actually having serious, good matches and feuds in the main event with guys like Lesnar and The Undertaker. Santino is a comedy character who was generally getting squashed and used as fodder and then had one week where he tasted a main event tease and then the next night was beaten in like one minute by the champion to re-establish his place.

Really, James Steele? Really?

The only difference is the level of push they are getting. They tied Cena to a rocket because Lesnar left a huge void in the main event and so they had to push him way too hard and way too fast. Which is why fans turned on him once he was working with established mega-stars like Angle, HHH, HBK, etc. Edge, JBL, and The Miz are the only heels to get Cena cheered. Cena was "ready" to be champion, but Cena wasn't ready to be given 1 1/2 year initial run with the belt (He held the title from WM21 to ECW One Night Stand except for a 3 week run from Edge).

[#1-norm-fan]

I... I don't know what to say at this point.

[James Steele]

Oh, and I forgot to add in the fact that Santino got his tease just days before the PPV because someone got injured and they needed a replacement for a SIX PERSON MATCH.

AND HE WAS FUCKING OVER AND HAS BEEN OVER FOR A LONG FUCKING TIME! The Cobra and Cobra Sock is no more fucking stupid than the 5 Knuckle Shuffle and padlock necklace.

[#1-norm-fan]

He's a fucking comedy character! lol

Cena was booked as a legit tough guy. I guess if you wanna call his rapper persona "cartoonish" that's fine but holy fuck, you can't not see the difference. Santino is taylor made to come out and be comedy fodder. And he's good at it. Even while never getting legit big wins. He's over from it. Doesn't make sense to make him WORLD CHAMPION.

Cena was cocky and he joked but he took guys like Lesnar and Undertaker to the limit. Fuck the gimmick, he was actually booked to look on par with guys. What are you not getting?

[James Steele]

I'm saying that if they actually booked Santino to "take guys to the limit" while keeping his quirky attributes, he would be over like Cena was in 2004. People went fucking nuts when he almost won the Rumble and they went nuts on the build to Mania, and they loved him at WrestleMania.

[#1-norm-fan]

Well, this all sounds like praise of Santino more than knocking of Cena.

I personally think IF they started booking Santino with the ability to legitimately wrestle, he'd be huge so if you're trying to use him as an example to knock Cena's push, you're talking to the wrong person. lol

[James Steele]

Anyway, what the original point of this was 72 hours ago was that Brock Lesnar leaving forced WWE to push Cena, Orton, and Batista too soon. Orton showed just how ill-prepared he was and they pulled the plug after a month. Cena and Batista went on fucking ungodly title runs that they couldn't sustain because they were ready for title runs and main event spots, but not as "faces of the company" which is why once they got out of their initial feuds and went on to face other stars, Cena especially, they got exposed. Cena began getting shit on by the fans when he feuded with Jericho, and it all started snowballing big time once he faced Angle and then Triple H all the way through today. Batista was able to be protected more since his push was more organic with the feud with Triple H and getting injured and keeping him off TV for awhile.

[#1-norm-fan]

Cena was a victim of bland booking/the change of character.

Shitty booking/character development can force the best to get bland and booed quickly. See: The Rock

And I'm not even just talking about Rocky Maivia. How many times as face Rock did the crowd go Cena on him?

[James Steele]

Cena was a victim of bland booking/the change of character.

Shitty booking/character development can force the best to get bland and booed quickly. See: The Rock

And I'm not even just talking about Rocky Maivia. How many times as face Rock did the crowd go Cena on him?

Occasionally, but he rolled with the punches and evolved. (Ex: "Hollywood Rock" circa 03) Cena has enough stroke to say "Let's try this."

[#1-norm-fan]

Well, yeah. I don't think anyone would blame Rock though. He was booked as a face who talked shit a lot and got beat a lot and it got bland. Cena hasn't and won't turn heel anytime soon. His character changed though and the booking of his feuds were terribly formulaic for that span when the crowd turned on him. That's why I'm saying booking is such a huge part of it. With the right booking, you can easily push a talented guy to the world title in a short amount of time and keep him over. It just takes consistency.

[James Steele]

Austin's shit was formulaic, and you can't tell me the monster trucks and beer baths kept him "fresh".

Austin wins title --> Austin pisses off Vince --> Vince stacks the deck --> Austin overcomes somehow --> Austin does something ridiculous with heavy machinery to piss off/embarrass Vince --> Vince finally screws Austin --> Austin finds loophole to get back in title hunt --> Austin wins title -->

Am I wrong? The biggest difference is Austin's initial run on top was only 2-3 years (Late 97 through Survivor Series 99) and not fucking 7 like Cena.

[#1-norm-fan]

Austin was ushering in something completely new. The stuff with McMahon was something people had never seen before. It's arguably the greatest rivalry in wrestling history...

[#1-norm-fan]

I mean, if you're gonna call stuff formulaic in retrospect, Hogan's feuds were pretty damn formulaic. At the time though, holy shit.

[James Steele]

They made the formula work, and Cena hasn't be able to do that. Hence why he comes off like a lesser star than those guys no matter how hard they push him. He is no doubt a huge star, but I don't think anyone but the kiddos look at him as on the same level as Hogan, Rock, Austin, etc.

[owenbrown]

can we import that Miami crowd to every Raw from now on?

[#1-norm-fan]

They made the formula work, and Cena hasn't be able to do that. Hence why he comes off like a lesser star than those guys no matter how hard they push him. He is no doubt a huge star, but I don't think anyone but the kiddos look at him as on the same level as Hogan, Rock, Austin, etc.

This "Cena hasn't been able to do that" thing is what I have the problem with.

A major part of Austin was the character and the writing aside from the man himself.

A major part of Cena is/was the character and the writing aside from the man himself.

For Austin it was amazing and cutting edge. For Cena it was bland and boring.

And thus, the crowd reactions followed. The problem wasn't "Cena wasn't ready." He was. He was getting the reactions. He was there. If you continue to book him well, he stays over. The problem was the writers didn't know how to book wrestling in a way interesting enough to please people other than little kids who could care less about intriguing storylines and women who think "OMG JOHN CENA IS SOOOO HAWT!" He went from the character people were so much behind in the JBL feud to becoming Hogan and a main event character that older people had seen before with no creativity behind it. I don't think Cena ever really sucked with what he was given to do. He was given shit to do though.