Root of the problem(s)?

[BigCrippyZ]

Love WWE or hate it currently, even with the financial and industry status, I think there's no doubt that WWE has some serious problems that need to address. Poor writing, lack of consistent creative direction, suspension of Jericho for doing a common heel tactic, release of AW for a poorly chosen joke, lack of creating new popular superstars and characters, these are some of the problems I think they're having. My question is what is the root cause of these issues?

Is it the fact that the company is publicly traded and now more worried about shareholders, sponsorships, partnerships and public perceptions? Is it Vince losing his faculties, management abilities or something else? Is it the fact that WWE is now focusing on too many other things, movies, their network, social media, etc.? Is it Linda McMahon's political and career ambitions (either direct or indirect) negative influence? Or is it some combination of the above?

Personally, I thinks it's a combination of all the above. However, I believe it's really all poor management by Vince, as he could and should, as CEO, deal with and solve the other causes and issues. Whether it's intentionally his fault or not, it is ultimately, Vince's fault and responsibility. I think he's losing his touch or effectiveness as a manager and executive.

I'm curious to know what do you guys think. Thoughts?

[#1-norm-fan]

Shit writing, lack of direction and no concept of long term character development.

It all pretty much revolves around writing I guess. It's not even just bad writing... the writers literally don't seem like they even try. They write a few boring pain by numbers storylines and then fill PPVs with three filler matches that could easily be seen on free TV.

[Tom Guycott]

^ that right there ^

I mean, if you had to try to point out ONE thing out of all initally listed.

Having "creative teams", and two* shows, you would think they could have some sort of divisional umbrella of people in charge of certain aspects. For example, instead of merely a circle jerk of people in a room deciding the fate of the 5 people the head writer can be assed to remember, how about one focusing on the main event picture, somebody making sure the midcard has something to do, someone taking care of the show openers, etc.

Also, they too often do the obvious. The obvious is fine in most cases, but it's pretty tireless in their case. They're the opposite of TNA, where creative tries to swerve everyone with damn near every angle on a bi-weekly basis.

I know this will make me sound like tireless internet fanboy living in the past, but this was one of the beauties of ECW: interconnected storylines. Taz vs. Shane Douglas or Raven vs. Dreamer were huge collaborations that led to matches between people even associated with the two in the primary feud. This is a cue WWE could take from their aquired archive instead of just saying "you know what, long term booking is hard" and just refusing to do it.

[Emperor Smeat]

Incompetent writers in terms of long term stuff combined with the WWE is basically afraid of elevating anyone else to the level of Cena for the long term.

In terms of having an equal to Cena, Orton has been the closet but even he could not reach the same status nor was the WWE able to really recreate the Stone Cold vs Rock rivalry they wanted.

In terms of long term stuff, the writers tend to ruin anything that might be great after a while because of general incompetence. The WWE is also to blame for being too reliant on Cena to the point it hurts everything else. Instead of letting things develop gradually, they pull the plug too quickly and just make everything about Cena again because of how huge the youth market is tied to him.

[#1-norm-fan]

Orton has been booked amazingly well at times too. But it's mainly been on Smackdown where there's a ceiling now for how over someone can truly get. Plus the wellness issues don't help.

[Kane Knight]

Hey, if you can write shit, week-in week-out, and get 4-5 million viewers, why not?

I'm not saying I think this is a good thing, but needs to be addressed? Nah.

What incentive do they have to push for anything competent?

[drmayberry7]

Simple, it's Linda's campaign.

[Road Warrior]

Is it the fact that the company is publicly traded and now more worried about shareholders, sponsorships, partnerships and public perceptions? Is it the fact that WWE is now focusing on too many other things, movies, their network, social media, etc.?


These reason's imo. The wrestling aspect of the company is completely secondary at this point and in a way reflects the evolution of society. Also a lot of it has to do with the fact that wwe is basically a monopoly at this point. With no suitable competition in the wrestling part of their company they really have no reason to improve in that aspect. Look at a company like EA, for example, with EA owning the exclusive license's to the NFL and NCAA they have no real motivation to improve that particular line of their products. I've said it before and I'll say it again, no competition equals no motivation.

[#1-norm-fan]

Simple, it's Linda's campaign.

Linda's campaign is primarily responsible for the PG product.

Shitty writers are responsible for making it a SHITTY PG product.

PG does not automatically equal bad.

[Sepholio]

I feel a strong desire to shit in Lindas shoes right about now.

[DLVH84]

I've been a wrestling fan for nearly 25 years, and I've seen a lot of ups and downs over the years, and right now, I believe WWE is at their lowest point so far, because of, like BigCrippy says, a combination of several things and Vince is getting up there in age. I believe it's almost time for him to step down and let The Game take over. I know my main man James Steele can't wait for Hunter to take over.

[KIRA]

Linda's campaign is primarily responsible for the PG product.

Shitty writers are responsible for making it a SHITTY PG product.

PG does not automatically equal bad.

Case and point Coraline PG childrens film and easily one of my all time favorite films

WWE just has shitty writers and whenever they manage to do something interesting its a safe bet itll be ruined or forgotten a week later but they don't have to care because they are pretty much the only show in town it would take a mass exodus of fans to see them truly start to care about the product. To me it looks like the WWE is so focused on expansion that theyve neglected the very thing that brought them to the dance.

I mean they spend more time promoting tout, twitter and whatever the hell else I could care less about than they do the matches in the ring

[rockman725]

A serious lack of risk taking in developing storylines, booking matches, executing outcomes and transitioning feuds are some things that have been hurting them for years. It's not entirely PG/Linda's campaign, but it definitely has something to do with it. One thing that I liked about the product 10 years ago is that in special gimmick matches like Hell In The Cell, Street Fight, No DQ, etc... there was an emphasis on the fight & not the "entertainment." I always thought that they over did the blading from time to time, but in those matches, blood tells the story (even fake blood if need be). At the same time (or on the same show), the wrestling matches (one on one, tag teams) focused on the wrestling. Aside for a few guys in the company that have the ability to give us wrestling, we don't have that any more. Even looking back at when I started watching in 1993, there was clear emphasis on keeping the story in the ring and not outside of it. Nothing was over the top back then, but the transitions worked well for the time.

If they take more risks like the Nexus angle that they destroyed and the CM Punk angle that they destroyed, just to name 2, it would be a much better product. I don't think competition (or lack there of) is the focal point of the problem.

[Heisenberg]

I'm still sweating the Spring Cleaning.

I'll get attached to upcoming/mid-card talent and WWE will release them and we all know it's coming soon after this campaign shit stops. Might be around after next Wrestlemania so wrestlers need to start saving up.

Crazy shit

[Mr. Nerfect]

The writers get too much shit from the IWC. You hear from a lot of them that they have all these good ideas and want to create interconnected storylines and all that jazz, but someone from above shoots them down. A good idea for Yoshi Tatsu to get serious and represent Japan will be taken from the writer and transformed into Wade Barrett going "super British" and squashing Yoshi Tatsu, which would be all well and good, except that Wade would be dropping an eloquent bad-ass gimmick and no one has been made to care about Yoshi Tatsu.

That's just a hypothetical example, of course, but I think the writing team is far more capable than what people think. It's certain people doing things for the sake of doing things. As much as Vince tries to take professional wrestling into the mainstream, certain things happen that help you understand why the mainstream continues to reject professional wrestling.

For every RAW where CM Punk cuts a promo talking about changing the way we think about professional wrestling, there is a RAW where Vince mocks people with illnesses. Has anyone noticed the hypocrisy in the Triple H/Brock Lesnar angle, with it apparently being terrible that Paul Heyman mention Triple H and Stephanie McMahon's kids, but it's totally cool for Steph to tell Paul that his children are ashamed of him? The morality in wrestling is weak, and that's fine -- if it weren't trying to aspire to be a moral code.

[Sepholio]

Look on the bright side. If Linda was running for President or something we'd be entering the G-rated era where all the wrestlers hug and talk out there problem like civilized chaps.

[Rammsteinmad]

The "problem" with WWE, is that this isn't 1999, times have changed, as have people and their attitudes. The boom period during the Attitude Era came at the right time where the social climate and storylines managed to cross at the right time. The internet wasn't as prominant as it is today, which meant that more people were tuning in on TV to watch.

People on here have been complaining about the writing for around ten years now, yet continue to tune-in week in and week out. So where's the problem? I mean, if it was as bad as everyone says, why watch it for ten years? Having interconnected storylines or breaking away from the PG rating isn't suddenly going to boost WWE's ratings back up to the 7's and 8's that they were making twelve years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I have my grievances too. There are times when WWE make decisions that I hate, but that's not so much a "problem with WWE" as it is a personal opinion of mine. I mean, WWE still bring in millions of viewers every week, so it can't be all that bad. There's a lot of undercard guys who never get used that I wished they would, I mean, now they've gone to a three-hour Raw, whilst guys like Zack Ryder still struggle to get televised matches, but ultimately the WWE machine will still roll on. It sucks, but I'll live, and it's certainly not what I'd call "the problem" with WWE.

The truth is that the problem isn't in the WWE, it's in us fans who sit here on the internet thinking we know everything and demanding too much.

[Wishbone]

No doubt things have gotten stale. I won't lie I still enjoy the product, but allot of the time I'm more afraid to admit to people I'm a wrestling fan than that I'm a brony. Thing is PG can be great. Like someone said earlier the movie Coraline was amazing, it's all about the writing. At the same time though it's not all the writers' fault especially when management won't let them do anything edgy that pushes the envelope. Linda's political crap has allot to do with it, but it's not just that WWE is trying to impress the share holders and is more focused on making them happy than making the fans happy. In the end it doesn't matter though because most of the WWE fans are sheep (me included) who will watch no matter what because there just isn't any alternative.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The "problem" with WWE, is that this isn't 1999, times have changed, as have people and their attitudes. The boom period during the Attitude Era came at the right time where the social climate and storylines managed to cross at the right time. The internet wasn't as prominant as it is today, which meant that more people were tuning in on TV to watch.

People on here have been complaining about the writing for around ten years now, yet continue to tune-in week in and week out. So where's the problem? I mean, if it was as bad as everyone says, why watch it for ten years? Having interconnected storylines or breaking away from the PG rating isn't suddenly going to boost WWE's ratings back up to the 7's and 8's that they were making twelve years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I have my grievances too. There are times when WWE make decisions that I hate, but that's not so much a "problem with WWE" as it is a personal opinion of mine. I mean, WWE still bring in millions of viewers every week, so it can't be all that bad. There's a lot of undercard guys who never get used that I wished they would, I mean, now they've gone to a three-hour Raw, whilst guys like Zack Ryder still struggle to get televised matches, but ultimately the WWE machine will still roll on. It sucks, but I'll live, and it's certainly not what I'd call "the problem" with WWE.

The truth is that the problem isn't in the WWE, it's in us fans who sit here on the internet thinking we know everything and demanding too much.

Sometimes the WWE violates the rules of storytelling, though, and often purposely avoid scenarios that could potentially stand to make them money. I don't think it's always smarks thinking they know best. Sometimes it is, but sometimes the stuff they put forward is just stupid, and shows that they no longer know their own audience.

Off on a bit of a tangent, your avatar reminded me -- the way they pushed Christian to the top last year, while rewarding in that they were actually doing it, kind of made Christian look shitty at the same time. At the time I quite enjoyed the rivalry between him and Orton, as did many others, and I ignored the criticisms of "Randy Orton wins all the time." Christian managed to get quite a few wins and falls over Orton. He was never made to really look like he was on Orton's level, though. And while I maintain that Christian was the heel, is much older than Orton, and probably not the guy the company should be investing in long-term, and that Orton beating him clean whenever they fought made total sense -- I do think that Christian's face push was aborted by the company way too quickly.

Instead of ending Christian's initial World Title run in four days, how about having Christian beat Orton with a roll-up in a hard fought match. The two respect each other and then Sheamus and Henry become involved. Christian & Orton beat them in a tag team match and then face each other again. This time the match goes to a double disqualification due to Henry and Sheamus. Cue a Fatal 4-Way, which Christian wins when he pins one of the heels. The money is still there in Orton challenging Christian, but you've made Christian stand out as a performer who is doing surprisingly well as World Champion. And at this point, you can properly gauge how well Christian is doing commercially as World Champion, as well as gauging critically.

It comes time to do Orton vs. Christian again, and that time Orton beats Christian like he did four days after Extreme Rules and is the new World Heavyweight Champion. Christian then turns heel on Orton in the coming weeks and you get the same essential story as what we got, except that Christian looks like more of a player against Orton, and actually poses some sort of threat to Orton's dominance, given that Christian has proven he can beat Orton in the past (although never decisively).

[Mr. Nerfect]

I guess my point there is that while I do believe that the role of the heel is to put over the babyface in the end, the heel should also be interesting and pose some sort of real threat to the babyface, or else there is no conflict worth really investing in.

[Juan]

The writing (and a few other things) in WWE has been a problem for almost 10 years.

I've grown to accept it and just enjoy the things they actually do right and not dwell on things like why Hornswoggle was revealed as the anonymous GM, almost a year since the whole gimmick was even dropped.

[Juan]

As in life, you have to let things just slide.

There are so many things you can pick apart and scrutinize in WWE on a weekly basis, but I feel that if I did that, I would enjoy it a lot less.

[Rammsteinmad]

Sometimes the WWE violates the rules of storytelling, though, and often purposely avoid scenarios that could potentially stand to make them money. I don't think it's always smarks thinking they know best. Sometimes it is, but sometimes the stuff they put forward is just stupid, and shows that they no longer know their own audience.

Off on a bit of a tangent, your avatar reminded me -- the way they pushed Christian to the top last year, while rewarding in that they were actually doing it, kind of made Christian look shitty at the same time. At the time I quite enjoyed the rivalry between him and Orton, as did many others, and I ignored the criticisms of "Randy Orton wins all the time." Christian managed to get quite a few wins and falls over Orton. He was never made to really look like he was on Orton's level, though. And while I maintain that Christian was the heel, is much older than Orton, and probably not the guy the company should be investing in long-term, and that Orton beating him clean whenever they fought made total sense -- I do think that Christian's face push was aborted by the company way too quickly.

Instead of ending Christian's initial World Title run in four days, how about having Christian beat Orton with a roll-up in a hard fought match. The two respect each other and then Sheamus and Henry become involved. Christian & Orton beat them in a tag team match and then face each other again. This time the match goes to a double disqualification due to Henry and Sheamus. Cue a Fatal 4-Way, which Christian wins when he pins one of the heels. The money is still there in Orton challenging Christian, but you've made Christian stand out as a performer who is doing surprisingly well as World Champion. And at this point, you can properly gauge how well Christian is doing commercially as World Champion, as well as gauging critically.

It comes time to do Orton vs. Christian again, and that time Orton beats Christian like he did four days after Extreme Rules and is the new World Heavyweight Champion. Christian then turns heel on Orton in the coming weeks and you get the same essential story as what we got, except that Christian looks like more of a player against Orton, and actually poses some sort of threat to Orton's dominance, given that Christian has proven he can beat Orton in the past (although never decisively).

But this is the exact point I was making. This is what you want to see (and maybe others). I for one, loved the Orton/Christian feud, and rank it as the top feud of 2011. Do I wish Christian had a stronger run with the title? Hell yeah! But overall it was a great angle, and I'm happy with it.

Anyway, my point, is that what you wrote is what you'd have wanted to see. And that's fine, everyone has their own opinions and expectations. But if the WWE had done it your way, it wouldn't have instantly taken the ratings up to the high 7's they were hitting in 2000.

It's not so much about the actual product or the writing, it's about todays social climate. People just aren't into wrestling nowadays.

[Rammsteinmad]

As in life, you have to let things just slide.

There are so many things you can pick apart and scrutinize in WWE on a weekly basis, but I feel that if I did that, I would enjoy it a lot less.

Pretty much this. You could pick apart and scrutinize anything in any television show, ever. Nobody is being forced to watch wrestling, if it was really as bad as everyone makes it out to be, then why are they still watching?

[CM Punk DONT GO]

They problem in wwe is that they have writing bad. Someones I does think need to come fromThe Hollywood and write stories like in tv and the like. Movies? Yes

[dingdongyo]

some of the "greatest moments of all time" were from crappy writing.

"let's have austin come down... and... SPRAY EVERYONE WITH A BEER TRUCK!"
"... a beer truck with a hose on it? is that even, like, real?"
"i dunno."
"... whatevs. let's do it."
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"hey, what can we do with foley and rock now?"
"...uhhh... let's have them do 'this is your life'!"
"...what?"
"yeah! we can bring out a bunch of people nobody has ever seen before or cares about, and pretend that they were part of the rock's life!"
"... whatevs. let's do it. is there any more pot?"
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and prob the best example of all:
"hey, austin and rock... um... we have 20 minutes to fill, and absolutely no idea what to do with it. just go do something, k?"
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[Kane Knight]

Simple, it's Linda's campaign.

Linda's campaign is primarily responsible for the PG product.

LOL

Never let a lack of correlation interfere with a good conspiracy theory.

Case and point

Case in point.

Regardless, the point that PG doesn't have to be bad is completely legit, yes. We've already seen wrestling doesn't need to be hardcore to be good. Thing is, there will always be people who correlate it (much like people who hold a correlation between Linda McMahon's political ambitions and WWE's rating, or between the lack of an F in their name and quality of show).

[Gertner]

The IWC is retarded. It's a business and the company is making money. Just because it doesn't fulfill your fat virgin fantasies, doesn't mean it's broken.

[Indifferent Clox]

It's gotten a hell of a lot better over the last year

[Gertner]

Yes, because Ryback debuted.

[CM Punk DONT GO]

Ryback scares me. He has that eye of scarryness

[Pintint]

The root of the problem is that there is no (real) competition for the WWE at the moment. So why try, when you don't have to worry about a competitor seizing the spotlight?

[#1-norm-fan]

The writing (and a few other things) in WWE has been a problem for almost 10 years.

I've grown to accept it and just enjoy the things they actually do right and not dwell on things like why Hornswoggle was revealed as the anonymous GM, almost a year since the whole gimmick was even dropped.

Oh, I could have cared less about Hornswoggle being named the GM. It didn't ruin any storylines as the storyline was already dead and gone in my mind. The comedy segments like that are corny and awful but I'm more concerned with the time they waste when they can't even build more than the main event matches for PPV.

When everything below the main event including the titles is just being ignored to the point that they're randomly throwing lower level matches on a PPV with no build, no heat, no drama, it can only come down to pure laziness. Plain and simple.

[#1-norm-fan]

LOL

Never let a lack of correlation interfere with a good conspiracy theory

:lol:

[Wake Up Call]

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You tell me what the root of the problem is after watching those two vids

[Kane Knight]

The IWC is retarded. It's a business and the company is making money. Just because it doesn't fulfill your fat virgin fantasies, doesn't mean it's broken.

The IWC? Hold stupid beliefs about the state of a company because they don't enjoy it?

You must be kidding!

It's gotten a hell of a lot better over the last year

It's always getting/gotten a hell of a lot better over the last (time period).

The root of the problem is that there is no (real) competition for the WWE at the moment. So why try, when you don't have to worry about a competitor seizing the spotlight?

Don't be an idiot. They were capable of drawing these numbers with WCW around, so competition is clearly not the issue. At least, not with other wrestling companies. As a TV show, they have more important things to worry about, like competition from other shows. but hey, the same number of retards will watch the shows every week (and then the half that's not 8-10 probably logs on here and bitches about it), so they really don't have any imperative to up their game. But that's not competition related, no. At least, as I said, not with wrestling companies.

:lol:

And it is a conspiracy theory.

[KyleEmmott]

Linda's campaign & PG rating.

[Kane Knight]

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Couldn't wait for that Austin/Rock promo to end.

Besides, current TV is much better. You should have shown a clip of CM Punk dropping PIPE BOMBS.
You tell me what the root of the problem is after watching those two vids

[Wishbone]

"Fat Virgin Fantasies"... real original there. Gertner, Kane Knight if you're going to be douche bags at least come up with some new material. Seriously guys I know you're trolls, but if you're gonna troll at least take some pride in it. I had expected so much better from you. :nono:

[Dat Fool Train]

The problem is the writing. The storylines are all about lawsuits and shit we don't care about. Who cares if AJ likes Punk but Punk doesn't like her and Daniel Bryan's in there somewhere when they're having a match for the goddamn title at the next PPV?? The booking has gotten so much worse because they're trying to go so much further than they should or need to. I was watching my Summerslam 2002 DVD and I was blown away at how a Flair-Jericho feud could be recapped in 2 minutes and the build was 400 times better than any dumb "I'm gonna sue you!" storyline. The WWE is completely out of touch with their fanbase and they need to get grounded in what people really want.

[#1-norm-fan]

"Fat Virgin Fantasies"... real original there. Gertner, Kane Knight if you're going to be douche bags at least come up with some new material. Seriously guys I know you're trolls, but if you're gonna troll at least take some pride in it. I had expected so much better from you. :nono:

This seems like a good time to throw this out there. While Gertner can be douchey about his opinions, I don't think he's a troll as much as people claim. I think he just gets people so worked up with the way he presents an opinion that they jump to "troll" any time he posts a differing opinion in a dickish manner. He hates guys with the "indy stench" on them. That's pretty much it. I actually agree with a lot of the things he says. I'm much more on his side about a lot of the guys the IWC typically wants to be pushed to the moon than most.

[Wishbone]

This seems like a good time to throw this out there. While Gertner can be douchey about his opinions, I don't think he's a troll as much as people claim. I think he just gets people so worked up with the way he presents an opinion that they jump to "troll" any time he posts a differing opinion in a dickish manner. He hates guys with the "indy stench" on them. That's pretty much it. I actually agree with a lot of the things he says. I'm much more on his side about a lot of the guys the IWC typically wants to be pushed to the moon than most.

For every "IWC Darling" he claims to hate he seems to come out of left field with a guy who is the exact opposite in every way to them and claims to love them to death. I just don't buy that any human being could come across as such a dick without doing it intentionally.

I'll agree that some of the IWC guys don't deserve pushes, but Gertner "Hates" them all and seems to see absolutely no redeeming qualities in any of them. Sorry, but from ever point he's made Gertner qualifies as a troll.

[Swiss Ultimate]

It's time they start blatantly ripping off our favorite storylines from the past thirty years. Like, match for match, ripping off.

[Wishbone]

As for Kane Knight he's just a dick. :p

[Wishbone]

It's time they start blatantly ripping off our favorite storylines from the past thirty years. Like, match for match, ripping off.

Why not just go all the way and do the exact same feud with the exact same guys? Most of the guys who mattered back then are still around today. Just fire all the new talent and make a few calls. I'm sure anyone who's not in the E now who was 3 years ago would jump at a chance to come back. :lol:

[Brigstocke]

WWE is making a shitfuckload of money right now. Thats essentially what businesses do. Thats what keeps people in jobs and makes economies work, Sure the TV product isn't as entertaining as it once was but we are still watching and they are still trading.

From a business standpoint (The most important standpoint) WWE is performing effectively despite the TV/PPV product not being as exciting as it once was. Why would they as a business strive for more? You can blame Linda/Vince/PG/Bad writing all you like but what it really comes down to is us the viewers.

I wouldn't expect to see any changes until we give them an incentive to change by switching off and stopping them functioning as a business. Which won't happen. people always say we are on the verge of another 'Boom Period'. We aren't, because of the reason I've stated.

Unless TNA can somehow find a way to challenge the WWE like WCW did or millions (and millions) of people switch off and stop buying the merchandise we are stuck with wrestling in it's current state for the long haul.

[#1-norm-fan]

For every "IWC Darling" he claims to hate he seems to come out of left field with a guy who is the exact opposite in every way to them and claims to love them to death.

Well if he hates IWC darlings, wouldn't it stand to reason that he would love guys who are the exact opposite? lol

What is so "coming out of left field" about that?

[bigslimjj]

The root of the problem is that there is no (real) competition for the WWE at the moment. So why try, when you don't have to worry about a competitor seizing the spotlight? I'm starting to think my fav wrasslin company is becoming competition,and with the state of WWE right now....TNA may make things interesting in the near future. I'm holding judgement to see where this aces and eights thing is going,IMO it has been the most interesting angle in a while. Including AJ Lee's overrated skipping

[#1-norm-fan]

WWE can lay down (More so than they seem to be doing now at time) and TNA wouldn't make it interesting. They just don't have any way of getting the mainstream recognition to be a serious contender to WWE.

[Tom Guycott]

WWE can lay down (More so than they seem to be doing now at time) and TNA wouldn't make it interesting. They just don't have any way of getting the mainstream recognition to be a serious contender to WWE.

Yes, they could. The fact that they're still around and on TV and employing guys 10 years later instead of being just another indy fed or bankrupt shows they can. Their problem is that it would take time to do so, and they take the "HOLY SHIT WE HAVE TO BE SUCCESSFUL RITE FUCKING NAO!!1!!" route too much.


WWE didn't even get to where WWE is now overnight. WCW didn't reach its peak in 1 to 2 years and suddenly kick everyone's ass. Every WWE castoff is the "biggest aquisiton ever" and only recently seem to be starting to break away from screwjob finishes every other match and no clean title switches that was the hallmark of their shows. Every regime change is a new turning point where they blow everything up and start over... now, they've relaxed on that shit. They're starting to build some stars, start their own trend (like with the BFG point system). If they keep things like this up, they could, one day, be seen as a true second place fed. They just need to ditch the notion that they're going to overtake Vince in 6-12 months anytime they do something considered big.


On topic:

I've said before, some of us keep watching- or suffering, as it may be depending on the product at the time- through shows partially out of habit, and partially because that next hot angle, next big moment, next amazing promo, next tear-the-house-down match might be that turning point we're waiting for. Waiting for the promise of something better that is sure to come, we just don't know when.

Then we get that angle, or moment, or promo, or match, and hope we get more, as opposed to being cockteased into watching months worth of more shit because that moment was a one-off and not a trend.

[Destor]

Simple: lack of stars. Most of this imo is because they ask wrestlers to be actors now. but thats up for debate.

[The Show Off]

The trouble is the WWE is too focused on pushing people that sell merchandise rather than pushing people so they can sell merchandise.

Back during the Attitude Era like 10 or more guys were able to sell merch and most of them weren't main eventers. Which leads right into the second problem the WWE is too focused on having 3 or 4 storylines going on at a time instead of 6 to 8. If you're watching back the attitude era their storylines aren't so much better than today's it's just their were more of them and they were all slightly diffrtent than one another and sometimes they collided with one another. Nowadays we have 3 or 4 storylines that when they do interact with one another are only for tag team, 6-man or 8-man matches.

[St. Jimmy]

Honestly the obsession with Cena is what is holding down WWE product. If you put the focus back on wrestling (see sig) you would get back to what wrestling used to be.

[Wishbone]

Well if he hates IWC darlings, wouldn't it stand to reason that he would love guys who are the exact opposite? lol

What is so "coming out of left field" about that?

He says he adores Heath Slater, and seems to think Ryback is the second coming of Jesus from his posts. Don't get me wrong Ryback could be interesting if given the time to develop, but to hear Gerty's point of view the guy is one billion times more entertaining than Daniel Bryan or CM Punk just because he's not a "Vanilla Midget". As for Heath Slater well... do I even have to come up with an argument as to why he must be trolling on that one? :nono:

[Wishbone]

Anyway though back on topic. TNA won't ever be a threat to WWE unless like someone else said they get over the "We gotta be popular now" thing. TNA is on the right track, tonight's PPV proved that they can put on a great show they just need to keep it up and stop trying to push things too fast.

None the less WWE won't change until something major happens like a mass exodus of fans on the scale of the millions. Until Raw drops to like a 1.0 rating they'll keep shelling out the same crap because they know we'll watch it.

I'd like to think that with HHH coming into power things will change, but to be honest he was groomed by Vince. Honestly I don't see WWE ever going back to it's former glory. The days of Professional Wrestling and Sports Entertainment are gone all hail the era of "Entertainment".

[#1-norm-fan]

He says he adores Heath Slater, and seems to think Ryback is the second coming of Jesus from his posts. Don't get me wrong Ryback could be interesting if given the time to develop, but to hear Gerty's point of view the guy is one billion times more entertaining than Daniel Bryan or CM Punk just because he's not a "Vanilla Midget". As for Heath Slater well... do I even have to come up with an argument as to why he must be trolling on that one? :nono:

lol. Well Noid has a boner for Heath Slater as well so at least he has SOME backing. I've always thought Gertner's love of Slater was more out of irony than anything though. I'm actually a pretty huge Ryback mark as well, by the way. Fucking love the guy. And I definitely see him being the star WWE has been looking for outside of Cena before I see Punk or Bryan being it.

[parkmania]

I'm actually a pretty huge Ryback mark as well, by the way. Fucking love the guy. And I definitely see him being the star WWE has been looking for outside of Cena before I see Punk or Bryan being it.

Only when WWE gains Visine as a major advertizer will this guy be the face of the company.

[#1-norm-fan]

Only when WWE gains Visine as a major advertizer will this guy be the face of the company.

Oh, a pinkeye joke. I get it.

[Kane Knight]

"Fat Virgin Fantasies"... real original there. Gertner, Kane Knight if you're going to be douche bags at least come up with some new material. Seriously guys I know you're trolls, but if you're gonna troll at least take some pride in it. I had expected so much better from you. :nono:

Hey, I can understand if you feel offended by Gertner's "fat virgin fantasies" comment, but the fact is the IWC is rife with people who talk shit about the serious business problems of WWE because they don't like the product. That's not a business problem, that's a personal preference, and conflating the two is completely stupid.

As I've said before, there is literally no imperative to create a better product, because WWE has a consistent fanbase and rakes in large sums of money.

The fact that so many people here continue to follow the programming so closely but bitch about how bad it is demonstrates exactly why they don't need to change the product for you guys.


While Gertner can be douchey about his opinions, I don't think he's a troll as much as people claim.

Yes, Gertner's a troll who plays most of this shit for laughs. I just think you fuckers are morons. :D

[Gertner]

For every "IWC Darling" he claims to hate he seems to come out of left field with a guy who is the exact opposite in every way to them and claims to love them to death. I just don't buy that any human being could come across as such a dick without doing it intentionally.

I'll agree that some of the IWC guys don't deserve pushes, but Gertner "Hates" them all and seems to see absolutely no redeeming qualities in any of them. Sorry, but from ever point he's made Gertner qualifies as a troll.

Question : which wrestlers "out of left field" do I claim to love?

[Big Vic]

Shit writing, lack of direction and no concept of long term character development.

It all pretty much revolves around writing I guess. It's not even just bad writing... the writers literally don't seem like they even try. They write a few boring pain by numbers storylines and then fill PPVs with three filler matches that could easily be seen on free TV.I will say this even though the storys aren't great they are still better then the absolute shit that was written between 2005-2009. It started picking up mid 2010

[ClockShot]

Linda's campaign isn't the problem. It kinda is the problem, to a degree. Along with a few other things.

I'm from Connecticut and we got the primary tomorrow, Linda's probably gonna get the nod by a fucking landslide. Haven't seen any Shays ads and I don't know whoelse is running on the republican side. It's pretty much a fist fight on the democratic side. Anyway, my point is short leading to WWE making television a bit edgy like now and aiming for the 18-49 adult demographic instead of the 9-17 children's demographic. They can't vote anyway. I know, I know, their parents can. "Shitting on Blumenthal" last year wasn 't a good idea.

Also are the obvious points. Weak writing and no direction. The obilgatory "turn Cena heel" idea. Lack of tag teams. Blah blah blah.

However, something to think about tonight and tomorrow. What happens if Linda loses the primary?

[Keith]

The problem WWE has is the following:

They have no competition, so there's no real drive to produce at a high level week in and week out.

They can push it hard when they're trying to promote a PPV, and then back off and ride out a couple weeks, because no one is pushing them.

That is it.

Good afternoon.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

The problem is people who overanalyze everything in wrestling.

[Keith]

Well, that too.

I remember the good ol' days (circa 1994, for example) where we'd just consume whatever WWF and WCW gave us and enjoy it.

Damn internet.

[Brigstocke]

I see nobody has contradicted or questioned anything I said in my post. I claim that I am now the rightful King of the Muties.

[Kane Knight]

However, something to think about tonight and tomorrow. What happens if Linda loses the primary?

Odds are almost 100%: absolutely nothing.

The problem WWE has is the following:

They have no competition, so there's no real drive to produce at a high level week in and week out.

They can push it hard when they're trying to promote a PPV, and then back off and ride out a couple weeks, because no one is pushing them.

That is it.

Good afternoon.

*ahem*


Don't be an idiot. They were capable of drawing these numbers with WCW around, so competition is clearly not the issue. At least, not with other wrestling companies. As a TV show, they have more important things to worry about, like competition from other shows. but hey, the same number of retards will watch the shows every week (and then the half that's not 8-10 probably logs on here and bitches about it), so they really don't have any imperative to up their game. But that's not competition related, no. At least, as I said, not with wrestling companies.

Good day to you, sir.

The problem is people who overanalyze everything in wrestling.

Troll! Troll! Troll!

[#1-norm-fan]

I'd say lack of competition is an issue.

[Maya Bristow]

The problem that WWE has is the sub par writing. PG isn't a really huge of an issue with the product, in fact you can put out a good wrestling show regardless of the rating. It all has to do with the quality of the writing.

[Kane Knight]

I'd say lack of competition is an issue.

I'd tell you not to be an idiot, but I'm pretty sure that's inescapable.

[Pintint]

In all honesty, WWE has gone down ever since they released The Undefeated Snitsky.

So,

Snitsky.

[#1-norm-fan]

I'd tell you not to be an idiot, but I'm pretty sure that's inescapable.

Your tears are the best tasting tears of all.

[#1-norm-fan]

Anyways, back on topic. If I had to pick one thing that was the root of the problems within WWE, it would probably have to be lack of competition.

[Wishbone]

Hey, I can understand if you feel offended by Gertner's "fat virgin fantasies" comment, but the fact is the IWC is rife with people who talk shit about the serious business problems of WWE because they don't like the product. That's not a business problem, that's a personal preference, and conflating the two is completely stupid.

As I've said before, there is literally no imperative to create a better product, because WWE has a consistent fanbase and rakes in large sums of money.

The fact that so many people here continue to follow the programming so closely but bitch about how bad it is demonstrates exactly why they don't need to change the product for you guys.




Yes, Gertner's a troll who plays most of this shit for laughs. I just think you fuckers are morons. :D
Oh yeah I totally agree that it doesn't matter. WWE won't change because like I stated in an earlier post we're all sheep that keep watching ME included. You're also right that they are doing fine business wise, but again that's only because we all keep watching regardless of how bad it is. Really it's pointless to argue this because both sides are right. WWE as it is now sucks, period. WWE also has a stranglehold on wrestling fans because they are THE wrestling company so they'll continue to make money. So basically this thread is a big waste of time... :|

[Wishbone]

Question : which wrestlers "out of left field" do I claim to love?

Um, Slater? Either way it doesn't matter you're entitled to your opinion regardless of how ignorant it is. Though I doubt that any of this is your real opinion, and you're probably just laughing that I'm commenting back to you at all so I'm gonna go ahead and stop feeding the troll now.

[Fignuts]

This seems like a good time to throw this out there. While Gertner can be douchey about his opinions, I don't think he's a troll as much as people claim. I think he just gets people so worked up with the way he presents an opinion that they jump to "troll" any time he posts a differing opinion in a dickish manner. He hates guys with the "indy stench" on them. That's pretty much it. I actually agree with a lot of the things he says. I'm much more on his side about a lot of the guys the IWC typically wants to be pushed to the moon than most.

Would be a good point if he didn't turn around and jack off to Tyson Kidd and Michael Mcgillicutty.

He likes Daniel Bryan and CM Punk, and probably many other "vanilla midgets" out there. He just likes fucking with all of you too much to admit it.

[Kane Knight]

Your tears are the best tasting tears of all.

:lol: More tinfoil hat logic.

Oh yeah I totally agree that it doesn't matter. WWE won't change because like I stated in an earlier post we're all sheep that keep watching ME included. You're also right that they are doing fine business wise, but again that's only because we all keep watching regardless of how bad it is. Really it's pointless to argue this because both sides are right. WWE as it is now sucks, period. WWE also has a stranglehold on wrestling fans because they are THE wrestling company so they'll continue to make money. So basically this thread is a big waste of time... :|

Wait, what's the other side of the coin? It looks like you're arguing the same thing twice, really.

Wrestling forum threads are all pretty much wastes of time, so that's kind of stupid. Doesn't change the fact that wrestling junkies are in here arguing about the shit they watch weekly....Which is just fucking funny.

WWE is not the product you demand, but the one you deserve. The fans are the biggest issue that needs addressing, but nobody really wants to turn that critical eye on their own watching habits. They're too busy manufacturing conspiracy theories about politics or scapegoating PG or whatever.

Anyway, while we're talking pointless, this thread has kind of been beaten to death time and time again, and is generally populated with the same people firing off said complaints in an echo chamber ad nauseum. Of course, expecting you to not employ a double standards would be expecting too much, so instead I'll say this:

As long as people keep saying stupid things, I will call them stupid for it. Nobody's taking away their ability to state their opinions and nobody's calling them pointless (except you), since that would somehow indicate that this was somehow more or less important than anything else on the internet.

Complain about how I'm a big meanie all you want.

[Wishbone]

:lol: More tinfoil hat logic.



Wait, what's the other side of the coin? It looks like you're arguing the same thing twice, really.

Wrestling forum threads are all pretty much wastes of time, so that's kind of stupid. Doesn't change the fact that wrestling junkies are in here arguing about the shit they watch weekly....Which is just fucking funny.

WWE is not the product you demand, but the one you deserve. The fans are the biggest issue that needs addressing, but nobody really wants to turn that critical eye on their own watching habits. They're too busy manufacturing conspiracy theories about politics or scapegoating PG or whatever.

Anyway, while we're talking pointless, this thread has kind of been beaten to death time and time again, and is generally populated with the same people firing off said complaints in an echo chamber ad nauseum. Of course, expecting you to not employ a double standards would be expecting too much, so instead I'll say this:

As long as people keep saying stupid things, I will call them stupid for it. Nobody's taking away their ability to state their opinions and nobody's calling them pointless (except you), since that would somehow indicate that this was somehow more or less important than anything else on the internet.

Complain about how I'm a big meanie all you want.

Um, I was agreeing with you on my last post... but whatever. I'm not saying that we deserve anything better I stated twice that I'm to blame too for watching. Basically I was trying to say that us arguing was pointless because you and I have the same opinion to some degree here. *shrug* Oh well.

[#1-norm-fan]

:lol: More tinfoil hat logic.

Mmm. Kane Knight tears. :yes:

[#1-norm-fan]

Would be a good point if he didn't turn around and jack off to Tyson Kidd and Michael Mcgillicutty.

How does him enjoying Tyson Kidd and Michael McGillicutty have anything to do with it? Not seeing the link. If anything, wouldn't the fact that he's praised McGillicutty-Kidd matches right along with the IWC lend credence to the fact that he does hate the guys he says he hates?

[Fignuts]

No, because his reasons for hating Bryan and Punk contradict his appreciation of Kidd and McGillicutty.

[Gertner]

Here's the difference

Me: I really enjoyed that Kidd vs MCGillicutty match

IWC: OMG KIDD AND MCGILLICUTTY SHOULD BE WORLD CHAMPS AND THE WWE KNOWS NOTHING FOR MISUSING THIS TALENT


I don't put unrealistic expectations on people I enjoy. Those two should never hold a title other than tag champs.

[whiteyford]

Kidd should unify all the titles and you know that Gertner!

[Pintint]

Here's the difference

Me: I really enjoyed that Kidd vs MCGillicutty match

IWC: OMG KIDD AND MCGILLICUTTY SHOULD BE WORLD CHAMPS AND THE WWE KNOWS NOTHING FOR MISUSING THIS TALENT


I don't put unrealistic expectations on people I enjoy. Those two should never hold a title other than tag champs.

They could both be good IC/US champs.

[Gertner]

They have no mic skills at all. They put on good matches, but mic skills hold them back from being singles champs

[Brigstocke]

Kidd is a good wrestler but he less charisma than is humanly possible.

[#1-norm-fan]

I was about to say if Tyson Kidd were pushed like Daniel Bryan, I guarantee Gertner would hate him just like he does Bryan.

[Gertner]

Yes I would, because it'd be ridiculous, just like it was for Bryan.

[Wishbone]

Yes I would, because it'd be ridiculous, just like it was for Bryan.

Bryan sells merchandise which = $$$ for the company so how exactly is pushing him ridiculous? :wtf: You just don't like the fact that a guy you don't enjoy is getting pushed which is exactly what you tell off other people on this forum for. Sorry but you're either a troll or a really big hypocrite. :nono:

[#1-norm-fan]

I used to kinda feel the same way about Bryan. I like him in the ring but in no way did I think he should be in the main event and DEFINITELY not a world champion.

He's done better as a character now than I thought he would though. Now I just find him a little overrated by people on the mic. Still don't think he should hold a world title. He doesn't look good as a potential face of the company and he isn't a believable antagonist for a potential "face of the company" guy. I think the main title/s should be reserved for someone who fits one of those two categories.

[BigCrippyZ]

I used to kinda feel the same way about Bryan. I like him in the ring but in no way did I think he should be in the main event and DEFINITELY not a world champion.

He's done better as a character now than I thought he would though. Now I just find him a little overrated by people on the mic. Still don't think he should hold a world title. He doesn't look good as a potential face of the company and he isn't a believable antagonist for a potential "face of the company" guy. I think the main title/s should be reserved for someone who fits one of those two categories.

Completely agree with you here #1, although I agree with you on most things so :yes:

[McLegend]

I think a lot of it has to do with lack of talent. I think that's going to be a huge problem for years to come.

The roster isn't that good.


Also lack of long term planning is a big problem.

[#1-norm-fan]

Completely agree with you here #1, although I agree with you on most things so :yes:

You are a quality poster, BigCrippyZ.

[BigCrippyZ]

You are a quality poster, BigCrippyZ.

Thanks #1. Same to you. One of the few folks on here I'd like to have a beer with.

[Destor]

They have no mic skills at all. They put on good matches, but mic skills hold them back from being singles champsThe mid card belts are for the guys who cant talk but who can work. They're always used as the workrate titles.

[Destor]

(or used for guys who are over but lack credibility.)

[#1-norm-fan]

The mid card belts are for the guys who cant talk but who can work. They're always used as the workrate titles.

Meh. I still don't know if I could buy Kidd as an IC/US champion. He's a poster child for why WWE should have bring back a cruiserweight division/title though. He'd be perfect for it. Save the IC/US title as a stepping stool for a guy potentially on his way to the top ala Bret Hart, John Cena, Austin, Rock, etc.

[Destor]

Meh. I still don't know if I could buy Kidd as an IC/US champion. He's a poster child for why WWE should have bring back a cruiserweight division/title though. He'd be perfect for it. Save the IC/US title as a stepping stool for a guy potentially on his way to the top ala Bret Hart, John Cena, Austin, Rock, etc.as if they dont have so many belts they all mean fuck all as it is?

[#1-norm-fan]

Well that's their shitty booking's fault. I'm speaking ideally.

And it's not like you'd need to write much. A cruiserweight division is based mainly on in ring competition anyway. A promo here and there maybe. Hell, Tyson Kidd and Yoshi Tatsu had an awesome rivalry going on NXT last year. Throw a title in the picture for them to fight over and give Justin Gabriel, Sin Cara, Evan Bourne when he comes back, Hunico, Ryder, Heath Slater, etc something to shoot for instead of floundering around in obscurity forever.

[Destor]

Its not shitty boking its too many belts. Hell its two world titles. How can you expect a 3rd tier title to elavate anyone?

[#1-norm-fan]

No, it's shitty booking. Santino has been US champion since before WrestleMania. Are you telling me he hasn't been booked horribly as champion? They try harder with the IC title but they still can't bring themselves to actually put any effort into building an angle around it. The writers can't book shit outside the main event. Hence half of the PPVs lately being random filler matches.

[#1-norm-fan]

I do agree that there should be one world champion who fights for both brands while the US and IC titles are the brand specific top titles... but even in it's current state, with even remotely decent booking, the titles can mean something.

[Juan]

Hey look, #1-wwf-fan is talking about writing/booking again :p

[#1-norm-fan]

Juan has caught on to my personal hobbyhorse.

[Destor]

Im not defending the booking but it doesnt mean bad booking is to blame. They couldnt get those belts over if they wanted to. The smack down title is the essentially the mid card belt now. Its been pretty well handled. The IC is closer to the old European title...The US carries the weight of the old cruiser...making a new cruiser belt so far down the ladder thats its laughable.

This reminds me of an argument i was having about doing too much in the ring as opposed to getting one thing over. The short version: if you try to get everything over nothing is over. It will all blend together and become meaningless. (which is exactly where we are now.) You CAN NOT get that many titles over let alone MORE.

[Heisenberg]

I look at the Heavyweight Title and just think of WCW, that title really doesn't do it for me.

[#1-norm-fan]

Im not defending the booking but it doesnt mean bad booking is to blame. They couldnt get those belts over if they wanted to. The smack down title is the essentially the mid card belt now. Its been pretty well handled. The IC is closer to the old European title...The US carries the weight of the old cruiser...making a new cruiser belt so far down the ladder thats its laughable.

This reminds me of an argument i was having about doing too much in the ring as opposed to getting one thing over. The short version: if you try to get everything over nothing is over. It will all blend together and become meaningless. (which is exactly where we are now.) You CAN NOT get that many titles over let alone MORE.

Miz has the IC Title now. He's a great choice (Though I wish he wasn't a former WWE champ. He wasn't at the level for it and now he kinda feels like he's getting it on the downfall.) He's wrestling Rey Mysterio at SummerSlam. Raw is 3+ hours now. Not to mention Smackdown is basically a "Supershow" now too. Put a little effort into making a story behind that match and you're a month into making it a meaningful title.

U.S Title can go to someone like Barrett. Have him feud with guys at the same level, build actual stories behind the feuds... problem solved. They could definitely get both belts over if they put effort into it. It all comes down to booking. There's 5+ hours of TV a week plus monthly PPVs. They're actually taking steps towards making the tag titles relevant again. Do that with the other two.

[Juan]

I'm actually hoping Antonio Cesaro will make the US Title somewhat interesting again.

[#1-norm-fan]

I'd prefer Barrett just because he's more proven and closer to that main event spot.

[Rock Bottom]

i say again not everything needs storyline or "angle" just have a match of 2 dudes and pick which 1 u think look the strongest if ppl start cheerin 4 a dude when he cut a promo, make him beat more harder dudes and advance they bringin these guys up 2 quick and giving the dumbest vbackstage sefgementns and promos and "mic wars" that cant really contend with anything we've seen b4 im glad with ryback they are bringing jack jabronis a little bit because you need them ryback looks like some unstoppable dude now, and guess what r truth doesnt have to job to him after main eventing against the rock last uyear in a breakout heel turn of epic proportion some guy in some small town is a little less over with his thousands of neighbors thats it let the sharks swim and eat each other at the top, but at least get these guys established so theyre not randomly recycling victories over each other like they throw them into the main event and then if they dont make the news or something, they are jobbed down within weeks fuck you dumb fuck shit ass bitch dont do that it doesnt make any god damned sense and fans cant follow it and i dont know why the fuck they would even want to becausde its so god damn stupid

just have 2 dudes wrestle each other an fight for who is stronger

[Rock Bottom]

also you said the us title fuck the us title get rid of the WHC and the damned US title this isnt fuckin WCW you have 5 belts

main belt

2nd belt

tag team 1

tag team 2

girl belt

the end

enough with this shit i quit

[Mr. Nerfect]

WHY IS THERE HEATH SLATER BASHING IN HERE?!?!?!!?

[Gertner]

Heath Slater is fucking gold.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The WWE is fine, by the way. KK is actually right when he talks about there being no hurry to change things. The WWE has also successfully turned Daniel Bryan into a legitimate main eventer, and I think Dolph Ziggler will be there very soon.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Heath Slater is fucking gold.

Amen, Gertner.

[#1-norm-fan]

lol. What do you like so much about Heath Slater, Gertner?

[Mr. Nerfect]

On a Heath Slater-related note, I actually wrote a program between Heath Slater and Trent Barreta the other day. Barreta is another guy I think is relatively great. The dude is really young, and although he is small, he's got a likeable presence and is clearly a trustworthy ring hand to make others look good. Plus, he seems to have a quirky personality that could be used to connect to audiences.

I would love to see Slater and Barreta have a small feud on Superstars.

[Gertner]

The WWE is fine, by the way. KK is actually right when he talks about there being no hurry to change things. The WWE has also successfully turned Daniel Bryan into a legitimate main eventer, and I think Dolph Ziggler will be there very soon.

The WWE is dying. didn't you know that?

I love how people "supposedly in the business" like Clox and Destor are completely clueless when it comes to mainstream wrestling.

The company is doing fine. The IWC has bitched and moaned about Super Cena for years, now they get Punk as a champion for an extended period of time, along with Bryan being elevated and now they bitch about something else. Santino draws a better reaction then 95% of the wrestlers. He's fine as a U.S champ, although he doesn't really need the belt to get over. Just like Cena.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I do find it really weird that people are bitching when two of your biggest promoted stars in the WWE are CM Punk and Bryan fucking Danielson.

[Gertner]

lol. What do you like so much about Heath Slater, Gertner?

I've been saying for a while that Slater has that "Miz-like" annoyance about him. that's a very useful quality

Now by no means would I make him World Champion or anything. He could be useful in a transitional role as an IC or U.S champion with the ultimate goal of getting a face over by defeating him, but certainly not as a long term champ. He's great in his role.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't like Santino as US Champion, just because he really doesn't need the belt, as you said. He doesn't really do much as champion. It's not that he's bad -- he would make a great champion if he did more with the belt -- but I'd rather see the title on Damien Sandow or Heath Slater right now. I'm not really feeling Antonio Cesaro as champion, though, to be honest. Love Cesaro, but it just doesn't feel right.

Christian should help Marella defeat Cesaro, and then Christian can put over Cesaro on RAW, and perhaps then Cesaro could be ready for another US Title shot. I'd have no problem with Cesaro bringing back the European Title as an unsanctioned prop as a bit of a storyline, either.

[#1-norm-fan]

Santino draws a better reaction then 95% of the wrestlers. He's fine as a U.S champ, although he doesn't really need the belt to get over. Just like Cena.

I think he's fine as champion since I think Santino is awesome. The title is a useful prop though and they're not making use of it bu having him just walk around with it, lose a shotload of non-title matches and barely ever defend it. That's my issue. They've taken some steps with it though by making a feud over it with Cesaro.

[Gertner]

I do find it really weird that people are bitching when two of your biggest promoted stars in the WWE are CM Punk and Bryan fucking Danielson.

Exactly, and it's not like they had a short feud, even though their matches consistently lost viewers on RAW, it was pretty much the longest running feud in years.

[Gertner]

I don't like Santino as US Champion, just because he really doesn't need the belt, as you said. He doesn't really do much as champion. It's not that he's bad -- he would make a great champion if he did more with the belt -- but I'd rather see the title on Damien Sandow or Heath Slater right now. I'm not really feeling Antonio Cesaro as champion, though, to be honest. Love Cesaro, but it just doesn't feel right.

Christian should help Marella defeat Cesaro, and then Christian can put over Cesaro on RAW, and perhaps then Cesaro could be ready for another US Title shot. I'd have no problem with Cesaro bringing back the European Title as an unsanctioned prop as a bit of a storyline, either.

I really need to hear Cesaro more on the mic. I haven't been impressed yet with his mic skills, and I HATE his finisher.

[#1-norm-fan]

I've been saying for a while that Slater has that "Miz-like" annoyance about him. that's a very useful quality

Now by no means would I make him World Champion or anything. He could be useful in a transitional role as an IC or U.S champion with the ultimate goal of getting a face over by defeating him, but certainly not as a long term champ. He's great in his role.

He's great at being so awful and awkward and corny at what he does that he's annoying. That's about the extent I would use "great" in the same sentence as Slater as a character.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I've been saying for a while that Slater has that "Miz-like" annoyance about him. that's a very useful quality

Now by no means would I make him World Champion or anything. He could be useful in a transitional role as an IC or U.S champion with the ultimate goal of getting a face over by defeating him, but certainly not as a long term champ. He's great in his role.

This.

Even Slater's look is somewhat annoying. He's got silky hair and blotchy skin. He's perfect to hate on every level. Plus, I love the dude's ring psychology. The guy can do moonsaults, but he knows not to do shit if it doesn't make sense in the context of a match.

If you ask Slater to go out and work a twenty minute clinic, he can do it -- but he can also get beaten up in two minutes and make it look great. Then he comes out the next week and is still all smiles -- the dude won't stay down!

I wouldn't turn Slater until his act wears far more thin than it currently is, but Slater's instant dislikeability is something that I could see actually leading to an effective face turn down the track.

I'm all for giving Slater a valet, by the way. Few things would make Slater more annoying than he currently is, but having a hot girlfriend to rub in people's faces would definitely be up there.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Man, I'm just imaging the promo Heath Slater could cut if he beat Santino Marella for the US Title. "None of you believed in me, but I am the one man rock CHAMPION, bay-bay!"

[Gertner]

He's great at being so awful and awkward and corny at what he does that he's annoying. That's about the extent I would use "great" in the same sentence as Slater as a character.

Lol that's still very useful though. His awfulness and awkwardness really draws heat. I wish he'd do that stupid air guitar more often.

[#1-norm-fan]

I think it was Cool King yesterday who mentioned something about Cesaro winning the US Title and renaming it the European Title. I like the idea of him renaming it (though it wouldn't be "official" and would only be him doing it to get heat) and coming out with the US flag part of the belt covered up with the flag of a different European country every week. It would do wonders for whoever eventually took the title off of him.

[Gertner]

I heard that on a Wrestling recap show last night. I like that idea as well.

[#1-norm-fan]

Lol that's still very useful though. His awfulness and awkwardness really draws heat. I wish he'd do that stupid air guitar more often.

lol. I just wanted to clarify that we are on the same page that he was awful and awkward and it's less genius talent that might make someone like him and more the Vickie Guererro/John Laurinaitis/Mike Adamle quality.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I really need to hear Cesaro more on the mic. I haven't been impressed yet with his mic skills, and I HATE his finisher.

I do like that Cesaro dropped his indy finishers. He used to do a straight-jacket powerbomb called "The Ricola Bomb," but hasn't done that since being on the main roster.

On the mic, Cesaro does not seem great. I'm not sure how confidently the dude speaks English. I like his presence and feel that a manager could do wonders for him. The thing is, while Aksana got the storyline with Teddy going, she can't really talk, either.

[Gertner]

I do like that Cesaro dropped his indy finishers. He used to do a straight-jacket powerbomb called "The Ricola Bomb," but hasn't done that since being on the main roster.

On the mic, Cesaro does not seem great. I'm not sure how confidently the dude speaks English. I like his presence and feel that a manager could do wonders for him. The thing is, while Aksana got the storyline with Teddy going, she can't really talk, either.

Yeah I've seen him do the Ricola Bomb before. Just never been a fan of the Styles Clash or any version of it.

[Gertner]

lol. I just wanted to clarify that we are on the same page that he was awful and awkward and it's less genius talent that might make someone like him and more the Vickie Guererro/John Laurinaitis/Mike Adamle quality.

Naw, he's just naturally annoying. He doesn't really have to try.

[#1-norm-fan]

Of course it doesn't make me care more to see him get his ass kicked since it's like watching someone beat up a weird sounding guy who has too much confidence likely because of a mental retardation and happens to look like the Wendy's chick fucked Rocky Dennis from Mask.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I wish they had given us Christian vs. Heath Slater on Superstars. Matt Striker could have made parallels to their past on NXT.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Slater reminds me of Lance Cade for some reason. Remember when Cade was the heel protoge to Chris Jericho during his feud with Shawn Michaels? Cade didn't really seem like he belonged, but he still served a purpose in big matches. I'm not sure who I would place Slater with (maybe Wade Barrett), but I could totally go for Slater as a main eventer's lackey.

[#1-norm-fan]

You have a thing for main eventer's lackeys...

[Mr. Nerfect]

I do. I think it makes total sense from a kayfabe point of view for a bad guy to surround himself with people to do the heavy lifting and for there to be ambition heels that will do anything to get themselves noticed.

SmackDown has had a lot of success in the past with Zack Ryder & Curt Hawkins and King Booker's Knights.

[Fox]

The problem with WWE is that time and time again, they have absolutely failed to capitalize on creating new, larger than life superstars, relying on old hats (who have, over the past few years, begun to retire and leave the company) and eventually leaving themselves with a pool of "main eventers" who are not respected.

John Cena is their top guy, but he's not "respected" like a top guy should be respected. He's a merchandise mover and a hero for the little kids and the girls. He gets booed by half the crowd everywhere he goes. This is not what a top guy should be. Hogan, Macho Man, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Stone Cold and The Rock were all what top guys should be for a company like the WWE. A "top guy" who gets 50/50 everywhere he goes is not good for business, and is just a glaring example of why the company is in the shitty state that it's in. People can argue that "Cena is what he is," but that's just a bullshit argument because Cena only "is what he is" because the WWE creative team refused to let him become anything else. There was a prime time to turn Cena, and they did not capitalize on it, and now, after 5 years of this shit, they're kind of stuck with him.

WWE has had many chances to chances to change the game and turn the direction of the company into something different and more respectable. Their failures are numerous. The revival of ECW. The death of the Cruiserweight and Tag Team divisions. The utter waste of dozens of talents who have either come and gone, or continue to work in the WWE where their talent is horribly underutilized.

They lost Kurt Angle because they refused to treat him like a top star and give him what he wanted. They mangled the rise to main event superstardom of Christian just last year - destroying any possibility of making him a legitimate main event star, which he is completely capable of being. They don't recognize talent, they don't know how to accentuate the positives and hide the negatives of the superstars that they DO have, and they don't know how to write compelling, continuous storylines for their mid-card talent. Everyone is lost in the shuffle besides the main event guys, and even they don't have any kind of real continuous arching storylines.

[James Steele]

With all due respect, Christian isn't "top guy" material. I'd argue he is in the perfect spot for him. Christian is very good at a lot of things, but he is missing something that makes him a elite main event guy.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I dunno, I think Christian has got all the tools needed. In 2005, the WWE really should have capitalised on how super over Christian was, but last year when they finally pulled the trigger on him, they sort of abandoned it really early to give Randy Orton another World Title run.

Now don't get me wrong -- Randy Orton is definitely a bigger star than Christian. But that is why Christian probably should have been allowed to beat Orton the first time they fought. It would have given more of a rub to Christian and at least given him the chance to run as a babyface champion for a few months. Christian could have beaten Orton via roll-up in their first match, which you could have put on at Over the Limit. Orton calls it "lucky" and Christian responds by giving Orton another match. That one is interrupted by Sheamus and Mark Henry who attack both guys and cause the double disqualification. That could have happened at Capitol Punishment. The World Title match is rarely the big attraction of a PPV, so you could have had the double DQ without upsetting too many people, but you could have had Teddy Long come out and change the interrupted title match into a tag team bout which Christian and Orton could have won.

At Money in the Bank? Fatal 4-Way pitting Christian against Orton, Sheamus and Henry. There, Christian retains by pinning one of the heels following a belt shot, teasing the heel turn that many of us had a feeling was coming. Christian continues to retain by being a resourceful champion, but Orton is still yet to be defeated definitively by Christian. It comes time for SummerSlam where Christian and Orton face one-on-one. That would be when you could have done the RKO counter to the sunset flip attempt spot, where Orton gets the pin and becomes the new World Heavyweight Champion. In the weeks that followed, that is where you would have done the Christian heel turn, building up to Hell in a Cell, which would have been the final Orton vs. Christian match, and where Orton would have beaten Christian once and for all.

I think Christian's heel turn would have had more impact if he had meant more as a top babyface.

[Mr. Nerfect]

That being said, I agree that Christian is in a great spot now. Well, I actually think they should have had him remain Intercontinental Champion for a while longer. I was really hoping for a Christian vs. Jericho IC Title match at SummerSlam this year. Oh well.

Christian would be the perfect choice for a guy to win the mid-card title constantly and then lose it to rising heels, who he then defeats as they move up the card to feud with bigger stars. I would love to see Christian feud with Damien Sandow over the IC Title, for example.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I really need to hear Cesaro more on the mic. I haven't been impressed yet with his mic skills, and I HATE his finisher.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_WCkYpL57ys" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

He's not the best public speaker, but he can be charming and is well-spoken, if nothing else.

I also feel that he gets what goes into having a character. I don't think we've seen the extent of that character just yet, and that now Cesaro is US Champion, we might get to see more of his persona as he establishes himself in the mid-card.

[Gertner]

The problem with WWE is that time and time again, they have absolutely failed to capitalize on creating new, larger than life superstars, relying on old hats (who have, over the past few years, begun to retire and leave the company) and eventually leaving themselves with a pool of "main eventers" who are not respected.

John Cena is their top guy, but he's not "respected" like a top guy should be respected. He's a merchandise mover and a hero for the little kids and the girls. He gets booed by half the crowd everywhere he goes. This is not what a top guy should be. Hogan, Macho Man, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Stone Cold and The Rock were all what top guys should be for a company like the WWE. A "top guy" who gets 50/50 everywhere he goes is not good for business, and is just a glaring example of why the company is in the shitty state that it's in. People can argue that "Cena is what he is," but that's just a bullshit argument because Cena only "is what he is" because the WWE creative team refused to let him become anything else. There was a prime time to turn Cena, and they did not capitalize on it, and now, after 5 years of this shit, they're kind of stuck with him.

WWE has had many chances to chances to change the game and turn the direction of the company into something different and more respectable. Their failures are numerous. The revival of ECW. The death of the Cruiserweight and Tag Team divisions. The utter waste of dozens of talents who have either come and gone, or continue to work in the WWE where their talent is horribly underutilized.

They lost Kurt Angle because they refused to treat him like a top star and give him what he wanted. They mangled the rise to main event superstardom of Christian just last year - destroying any possibility of making him a legitimate main event star, which he is completely capable of being. They don't recognize talent, they don't know how to accentuate the positives and hide the negatives of the superstars that they DO have, and they don't know how to write compelling, continuous storylines for their mid-card talent. Everyone is lost in the shuffle besides the main event guys, and even they don't have any kind of real continuous arching storylines.

You had me a bit until you threw Christian's name in the picture. He's so God awful as a face. As a heel he's fantastic, but not good enough to carry a brand.

Also, Cena being 50/50 is a promoters dream. He moves tons of merchandise, and because his fan base either loves or hates him he can be put in a match with a face or a heel logically. He draws a reaction most importantly. Kids love him which makes parents buy them his merchandise. Smarks hate him which also make their parents buy them CM Punk shirts :)