What made Eddie Guererro so great?

[Autobahn]

It was 7 years ago recently since he passed away, and I have to admit, the guy was a gifted wrestler but there was something about him that made him a special wrestler. I can't put my finger on what his appeal was that made me like and respect him so much...maybe because his charisma showed a lot more to me during the 'lie, cheat steal' period, or just how much the wrestling world is missing someone like him in this business.

What is it that makes him that special? I know after death some people make more of a big deal of a person compared to when they are alive, but with Eddie I have no doubt it is well and truly justified.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Eddie Guerrero had the IT Factor he had IT coming out the ass. Probably had IT more than any other superstar I have ever seen. Unbelievable wrestler with just a great love of life and entertainment. The IT Factor is hard to define, but when somebody has it you know and when somebody doesn't have it you know. It's pretty sad that somebody with such a love for life was taken away from his wife and children at such a young age.

[Shisen Kopf]

People become great when they die young. That's one way to cement your legacy. Look at Owen too. He was a very good rassler but b/c of what happened some people think he was better than Bret. And that's just dumb.

[Autobahn]

Eddie Guerrero had the IT Factor he had IT coming out the ass. Probably had IT more than any other superstar I have ever seen. Unbelievable wrestler with just a great love of life and entertainment. The IT Factor is hard to define, but when somebody has it you know and when somebody doesn't have it you know.

I thought this as well, but honestly think there is more to it, probably a combination of things.

He had charisma, talent, and a character that was unusually honest in that he didn't hide that he cheated to win. I think by the IT factor it would be a combination of so many of these different things.

[El Fangel]

Everything. [/thread]

[Big Vic]

People become great when they die young. That's one way to cement your legacy. Look at Owen too. He was a very good rassler but b/c of what happened some people think he was better than Bret. And that's just dumb.My left nut is better than Bret.

[voncouch]

He was one of those rare guys who scored a 10/10 in every category: workrate, mic work, charisma, athleticism, attitude, etc. Even the top guys usually fall a bit in one of the categories, but Eddie really didn't. He was a total package.

And, of course, that "It Factor" we hear so much about.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

People become great when they die young. That's one way to cement your legacy. Look at Owen too. He was a very good rassler but b/c of what happened some people think he was better than Bret. And that's just dumb.

I grow less intelligent through reading any of your posts.

[Shisen Kopf]

Bret Hart is the 4th greatest rassler of all time. There is none better other than 3 others.

[DLVH84]

His lying, cheating, and stealing.

[Shisen Kopf]

His lying, cheating, and stealing.

That is unacceptable behavior for a role model. He could never have rassled in ROH with that disgusting attitude.

[Kane Knight]

That is unacceptable behavior for a role model. He could never have rassled in ROH with that disgusting attitude.

That's fine. He'd drop the gimmick for some reason, renounce it, and do nothing but finisher after finisher to redeem himself in the eyes of the fans.

I bet he had awesome fightan spirit.

[Shisen Kopf]

RPI eddei guereor

[The Condor]

It's blasphemy, but never thought Eddy was the shit like everybody else. He was good and entertaining but not some otherworldly and indescribably transcendent figure for me. He was real good, died young, it's a pity.

[Wishbone]

Like others have said Eddie was the total package. He had in-ring skill, charisma out the wazoo, the "IT" factor, and despite his height actually had a believable look as a champion. I see Eddie as the perfect hybrid of IWC hero and WWE superstar.

[El Fangel]

Also had a tragic story and was the underdog everyone loves to get behind.

[Nicky Fives]

charisma [/thread]

[Anybody Thrilla]

I thought Owen was better than Eddie. I don't know what that has to do with anything, but I just felt like saying it here.

[Emperor Smeat]

Pretty much was a "total package" type wrestler but as a late bloomer than someone seen as a great early on in his WCW and WWE career. Really doesn't start his move to eventual legendary status until around 2003/2004 with his US title chase and tag stuff with Chavo.

Even in terms of the Radicalz group, Malenko and Benoit were the better skilled wrestlers and Benoit achieved top status quicker than Eddie. Eddie's biggest benefit compared to those two was him being able to improve his promo and entertainer skills over time which benefited whatever character/gimmick he had later on.

[Jordan]

Eddie Guerrero ... man, I really am connected to some of the fallen guys... What made Eddie special? I'd say best to read JBL's imput or Chris Jericho's recent book. However, Eddie was the fith pro wrestler that I remember ever knowing.

I knew The Undertaker from a very young age, maybe 6 years old, from watching a tape of The Royal Rumble and the only things that left with me were The Undertaker and Ric Flair. Later on, I caught WWF Superstars on TV and remembered Yokozuna and Shawn Michaels. After it went off the air a WCW Worldwide program came on from The Studio they used at the time, and I was really impressed and remembered a very mulleted mustached Eddie Guerrero, and how awesome his moves were. Then later I got WCW vs NWO World Tour and LOVED IT. And loved Eddie's moveset.

I remember when Eddie got hurt really bad in WCW and was gone for a long time, eventually he came back jacked like never before, totally changed his body. He looked like a killer. He was fierce in the ring, and with the new look was the most physical Luchadore EVER. You can consider him a Junior Heavyweight of course as well. He was also hilarious when he would talk, a total natural, never gave the "standard wrestling promo" at any time. After that pushed faded and Eddie and the other Radicals invaded Raw, you got the sense that Eddie had what it took to be a WWE main eventer.

Though it took several years due to his daemons, which ultimately cost him everything. But he got to live his dream and held his arms high with his best friend Chris Benoit at Wrestlemania 20, one of the best feel good moments in the sport.

Eddie could have a good match with anyone, cut hilarious promo's and skits, and as well as Owen Hart was clearly just one of the best guys around.

[James Steele]

Eddie was like Shawn Michaels - what couldn't he do?

[James Steele]

Shisen, I'll go ahead and make the "live past 40" joke for you.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Eddie was like Shawn Michaels - what couldn't he do?

I'm glad that this comparison has been drawn. Eddie Guerrero vs. Shawn Michaels is a match that I would have loved to have seen at WrestleMania for the WWE Title one year.

Nicky Fives also nails it when he simply said "charisma." Eddie did have charisma -- the sort of charisma that people mean when they talk about "It Factor." It's the charisma of a guy who could lead the product, in terms of quality. It's not just mic skills or having a personality. It's having that something "special."

Look, there were times when I didn't think Eddie Guerrero was that great (his initial WWE run). He was always good, don't get me wrong -- but he wasn't as great as many other guys on the roster. But somehow Eddie discovered something in himself when he returned to the WWE in 2002. It came out in his original run with Chavo as "Los Guerreros" on SmackDown, and it stayed with him until the end of his career.

[Heyman]

Eddie was like Shawn Michaels - what couldn't he do?

This.

Only thing ill say is this:

Eddie, much like Kurt Angle, should never have turned face. They should have kept him as a heel (tweener?) and just let the fans react however they wanted.

Guerrero, much like Angle in all of his face runs, lost a lot of momentum when they turned him face in 2004. The moment with Benoit at Wrestlemania was epic but aside from that, turning Guerrero face was a mistake when looking back in retrospect.

[Heyman]

On another note, the only thing Eddie really lacked was size.....and unfortunately, that means a lot in the wrestling business.

Eddie also lacked a true "alpha" personality like Austin, Bret, Shawn, Hogan, Rock, Cena, etc., and unfortunately, if you don't have an 'alpha' personality then you'll never feel fully comfortable in being THE guy.

Guerrero, much like Owen Hart, was a people pleaser to the extreme......and when someone is extreme in this regard, it often prevents one from being the figurehead of the company. People like this often do NOT want the responsibility of being the top dog for an extended period of time as to avoid potential politics and conflicts. That is both good and bad I guess.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Bret Hart is the 4th greatest rassler of all time. There is none better other than 3 others.

It's not that. Bret is my all time favourite. Just, Owen was great as well, some people genuinely think he was better than Bret and in some ways he was... from what I've gathered, is if Owen took wrestling half as serious as Bret, he would have been the man... Bret would probably back that himself. I mean he is an absolutely classic heel, and although chances were limited had potential as a great face. His death aside, Owen would have always been an internet darling regardless.

Eddie is Eddie, people worshiped him when he was alive. So pretty much what you're saying does not apply to either of the examples you brought up.

I also just don't like you.

[Tom Guycott]

Everything posted about Eddie's charistma and "it" factor.

First time I saw Eddie, much like Fragile X, was an episode of WCW Worldwide. Actually, I can say the same about Chris Jericho. Even though he was lower card fodder, he had this air of "self importance" as a cocky heel that seemed unwarranted, until he stepped in the ring. His matches were pretty top notch.

The cocky heel thing is what got me watching, his wrestling sold me on him, and his "cheating" that he did even then got me hooked. He used to do that "pretending to be hit with the chair so his opponent gets DQ'd" thing even in WCW. He was one of those guys that WCW seemed to be squatting on just so Vince couldn't get to them, but had no idea how to book the guy.

Bottom line is, Eddie should have been bigger sooner. They kind of wasted him similar to the way they wasted Austin.

[TNA&USA#1]

Eddie made me want to root for him. He was so likable. People today I'm just like ehh you can wrestle but so what? Eddie was like so what? So I'm freaking awesome!

[James Steele]

WCW never had an idea on how to make stars. Other than Goldberg and DDP, every single major star they had was made in WWF. They got lucky with Goldberg and DDP and showed that they had no idea how to use them. Goldberg was a perfect storm that they completely fucked up within 6 months and they waited too long to push DDP. If anything, you could argue DDP and Goldberg got over in spite of WCW. Goldberg was booked as unstoppable, but after he beat Hogan for the title...he only headlined 2 PPVs - Halloween Havoc and Starrcade. DDP was in high profile matches but they never pulled the trigger on DDP to put him at the same level as Hogan until Spring Stampede 99 by which point most people quit watching WCW anyway.

DDP should have come THIS CLOSE to beating Goldberg at Halloween Havoc but doesn't pull it out. Goldberg kicks out of a out-of-nowhere Diamond Cutter. Goldberg is dazed and DDP goes for a set up one, which Goldberg counters into a Jackhammer. Goldberg beats Nash at World War III. DDP then wins the WW3 battle royal and vows to get it done on the grandaddy of them all. Starrcade 98 - DDP vs Goldberg: You have the same awesome match that had at Havoc, but when Goldberg kicks out of the Diamond Cutter - DDP goes on the attack. Goldberg fights back. Irish whip - reversal - SPEAR! Goldberg is jacked. He picks up DDP for the Jackhammer -- he gets him up -- he starts to slam him down when out of nowhere DDP lands the Diamond Cutter! 1-2-3!!! Diamond Dallas Page wins the World Heavyweight Championship and Starrcade comes to a close with Goldberg shaking DDP's hand and DDP celebrating in the crowd as "The People's Champion" has become "World Heavyweight Champion". Goldberg loses, but it has a story to it and as such it doesn't completely ruin him and WCW cashes in on one of their hottest stars.

[Heyman]

I don't think it had as much to do with WCW not mowing what to do, as it did with the politics and glass ceiling.

Since 2002, the WWE has had many of the same problems on very frequent occassions.

There is just too much fear to give the ball to the new guy(s) while deviating from what is an established "sure" thing.

The only reason why the WWE went this route during the mid 90's with Austin, Rocky, Hunter, Mankind, etc., was because they had no choice.

After the Attitude era, the WWE had numerous chances to give the ball to the likes of RVD, Orton, Lesnar, CM Punk, etc. and push them the right way but failed miserably each time (for various reasons.....although some of it was brought Pom the wrestlers themselves)

[James Steele]

Seriously, find me a better Goldberg match. It wasn't a 30 minute masterpiece, but it didn't need to be. The story it told of DDP weakening Goldberg and coming so close...but so far away. Build that up over a few more months and it would have been white hot at Starrcade.

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[James Steele]

I don't think it had as much to do with WCW not mowing what to do, as it did with the politics and glass ceiling.

Since 2002, the WWE has had many of the same problems on very frequent occassions.

There is just too much fear to give the ball to the new guy(s) while deviating from what is an established "sure" thing.

The only reason why the WWE went this route during the mid 90's with Austin, Rocky, Hunter, Mankind, etc., was because they had no choice.

After the Attitude era, the WWE had numerous chances to give the ball to the likes of RVD, Orton, Lesnar, CM Punk, etc. and push them the right way but failed miserably each time (for various reasons.....although some of it was brought Pom the wrestlers themselves)

RVD proved why they didn't give him the ball for so long.
Orton has proved why he can't be given the ball.
Lesnar was given the ball, but he took it to the NFL.
CM Punk has been given a share of the ball and a large share of it. I think we will see this as he will headline WrestleMania and not John Cena (unless they do do the Rock/Punk/Cena 3-way).
Nobody else has really been over enough to be given the ball. Christian and those guys have never been and never will be "the top guy".
WWE has way too many heels. They need to take the same risks with babyfaces they do with heels. The problem WWE has is they think they can manufacture "top guys". You don't. You can't. Whether it was Hogan, Hart, Michaels, Austin, Rock, Cena, Goldberg, etc., you didn't just put the belt on them or put them in a bunch of main events and that automatically made them a huge top tier star. It has to be organic and years in the making. CM Punk is another example of that. You have to be on TV for a few years at least and build a deep character and story around your character. Ryback is a flash in the pan and will fizzle unless they flesh him out. Hart, Michaels, Austin, Rock, Cena, and Punk all had a WWE career that people knew about and became invested in the character as they battled for the Intercontinental Championship and worked their way up the ladder. When the time finally came for them to break through into that "next level", the fans wanted it and demanded it to the point of where it couldn't be denied.

[Gertner]

I've never understood the appeal for Eddie

[Shisen Kopf]

Yeah I know. I remember seeing Eddie's first match in the WWF at a smackdown taping at Joe Louis Arena and he fucked his arm up doing that frog splash. Well, I guess it was more of a toad splat but yeah. He was good but he wasn't great like a Bret Hart.

[Heyman]

RVD proved why they didn't give him the ball for so long.
Orton has proved why he can't be given the ball.
Lesnar was given the ball, but he took it to the NFL.
CM Punk has been given a share of the ball and a large share of it. I think we will see this as he will headline WrestleMania and not John Cena (unless they do do the Rock/Punk/Cena 3-way).
Nobody else has really been over enough to be given the ball. Christian has never been and never will be "the top guy".
WWE has way too many heels. They need to take the same risks with babyfaces they do with heels.

-if the WWE had given RVD the ball in 2001/02 instead of 2006, it could have ushered in or atleast progressed a new attitude era. The guy was over as fuck. A relatively minor incident like the one he had in 2006 shouldn't have curtailed his push.....especially if that guy can bring in major revenue.

-CM Punk, Orton, and Lesnar were turned face way too prematurely due to a hint of the fans cheering them (as opposed to what they did with Austin in 97' and Rocky in 98' where they kept both men heel for an extended period of time, despite getting cheers, in order to further develop their characters).

Just boneheaded mistakes. Angle and Guerrero, despite achieving a decent amount of success, were also essentially under utilized. Ditto for Jericho.

[James Steele]

RVD repeatedly bashed the WWE in 01-03 and was basically bragging about how much dope he smoked. I don't care how over he is, you can't give that guy the ball.

Orton I would agree with. Punk and Lesnar's face turns were pretty good timing. Punk was white hot and coming off a huge heel run of almost 3 years and was the perfect foil for Cena and the anti-Cena sentiment. Lesnar was getting cheered over The Rock. Brock Lesnar had arrived and the evil monster heel had run its course. I think Paul Heyman turning on him was dumb. Brock Lesnar should have finally said "Fuck it." and violently thrown Paul Heyman to the curb. It would have been similar to Batista finally realizing he was being used by HHH/Flair and he didn't need them anymore. Tease tension between Brock and Heyman. Heyman finally slaps Lesnar for not destroying Big Show after the match or for shaking Big Show's hand after their match, and *BOOM* Lesnar beats Heyman's ass and the crowd is going nuts.

[James Steele]

Angle and Eddie were the face of SmackDown! along with Brock for a good chunk of time when the brand split actually was a complete split.

[Mr. Nerfect]

It's not that. Bret is my all time favourite. Just, Owen was great as well, some people genuinely think he was better than Bret and in some ways he was... from what I've gathered, is if Owen took wrestling half as serious as Bret, he would have been the man... Bret would probably back that himself. I mean he is an absolutely classic heel, and although chances were limited had potential as a great face. His death aside, Owen would have always been an internet darling regardless.

Eddie is Eddie, people worshiped him when he was alive. So pretty much what you're saying does not apply to either of the examples you brought up.

I also just don't like you.

From bits I've seen of Owen Hart, I've thought he was absolutely riveting as a personality and exciting in-ring presence. I've never actually been too big a fan of Bret's body of work (although I haven't really tracked much of it down), and while I respect that he was great, I can totally get why some people might have preferred Owen.

[Gertner]

Bret was pretty terrible. He was a top guy because everybody good was in WCW.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Hold the fuck up. I've seen a huge portion of work from both Bret and Owen. I'm a HUGE Owen mark, but he was still no Bret.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Obviously I won't take Gertner seriously, but all of this Bret bashing from people who actually mean it needs to subside.

[Gertner]

Owen had more range personality than Bret. Bret could only do the standard indie wrestling "grrr I'm tense and and want respect" promo.

[Gertner]

Juan, I see you're in this thread. Please cross back over the border of this thread and leave.

Thank you.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't think it had as much to do with WCW not mowing what to do, as it did with the politics and glass ceiling.

Since 2002, the WWE has had many of the same problems on very frequent occassions.

There is just too much fear to give the ball to the new guy(s) while deviating from what is an established "sure" thing.

The only reason why the WWE went this route during the mid 90's with Austin, Rocky, Hunter, Mankind, etc., was because they had no choice.

After the Attitude era, the WWE had numerous chances to give the ball to the likes of RVD, Orton, Lesnar, CM Punk, etc. and push them the right way but failed miserably each time (for various reasons.....although some of it was brought Pom the wrestlers themselves)

This post is dead on. :y:

Over the years, there have been some opportunities to cash-in and create some massive stars. Maybe they would not have been massively long-term draws, but few rarely are.

RVD was so super-over in 2001 that being aligned with the Alliance couldn't really damage him. Even if they gave him the WWE Title for a month before Austin turned on RVD, then you still could have made a lot of money off RVD merchandising sales. RVD's botch at the top of the company only came in 2006 -- five years later. There really wasn't another reported incident past that, either.

In 2004, Randy Orton was white-hot, and fucking Canada was happy to see him take the World Title off Chris Benoit. For some reason, though, the WWE found the need to have Triple H win the belt off Orton at Unforgiven just a month later. Was Orton ready to be a top face? Probably not. But they could have done many other things instead of putting Triple H over Orton. They could have had Orton hand the title over to Triple H, and resume being "the future" instead of "the present" he had proven he could be. They could have had Evolution turn on Triple H, and given him the role of being the top babyface on the RAW brand against the young lion that has replaced him. They could have had Evolution secretly take out Randy Orton, and have the World Title vacated, with Orton returning and revealing that it was Triple H behind the attack. The main event of WrestleMania 21 really should have been Orton facing Triple H in some sort of match, though.

2005 saw Christian and Matt Hardy swell up as two of the potentially most profitable stars in professional wrestling, and the WWE refused to follow it with either guy. Christian's charisma led to him getting smarky ovations all over the world. How did the WWE react to this? Well, they gave Christian one title match against Cena as part of a Triple Threat with Chris Jericho, and then they moved Christian to SmackDown where he worked with Booker T in what seemed like a purposely one-sided and under-developed feud.

Now, would Christian have been a breakthrough mega-star on the level of Stone Cold Steve Austin or The Rock? Probably not. But the WWE were so stubborn and didn't even give Christian a lick near the main event when so many people were calling for it.

Matt Hardy has proven to be an utter nutbag in recent years, but in 2005, he was the hottest thing in wrestling once the Edge/Lita/Matt stuff spread. They do a segment where Vince brings back Hardy, and what does Matt do? No, he doesn't drop Vince McMahon with a Twist of Fate for firing him in the first. He shakes Vince hand, meekly announces that it is great to be back, and then got his ass kicked at SummerSlam. The perfect result to Hardy vs. Edge at SummerSlam 2005 would have been Hardy getting disqualified against Edge -- looking to hurt his rival instead of just beating him.

Lots of moments have been avoided by the WWE to "stick to the plan," which clearly isn't always a long-term plan anyway. Fuck, this almost makes me want to see Ryback win the WWE Title at Survivor Series, just to try the guy near the top.

[Gertner]

After losing at HITC, putting the belt on Ryback needs to happen now because of the situation the WWE has booked themselves in.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Owen Hart beating Bret Hart at WrestleMania X before Bret went on to become WWE Champion is one of my favourite things ever.

[Mr. Nerfect]

After losing at HITC, putting the belt on Ryback needs to happen now because of the situation the WWE has booked themselves in.

Even I would mark out if Ryback Shell-Shocked both Cena and Punk at the same time, stacked them on each other and got the pin.

[Mr. Nerfect]

A distressed Paul Heyman getting Shell-Shocked at Survivor Series would also make a lot of fans happy.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I still think that it should have been CM Punk vs. Vince McMahon at Hell in a Cell. Punk brutalising Vince would have been money.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Hold the fuck up. I've seen a huge portion of work from both Bret and Owen. I'm a HUGE Owen mark, but he was still no Bret.

this I'll agree with. Owen was not a guy who could have been "the man" because he really didn't care enough, whereas Bret took himself seriously and kicked ass and took names until he was the man.

[James Steele]

Bret was a mark for himself while Owen had fucking perspective in life.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Bret was a mark for himself while Owen had fucking perspective in life.

Maybe so, but what makes a wrestler a legend? You may think you're Triple H's biggest fan, but I'm fairly certain Triple H is is Triple H's biggest fan.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Was Owen a better person than Bret? Possibly. Was Owen a better wrestler than Bret? Not really.

[James Steele]

I think Owen was more well rounded than Bret. Owen had way more range in his promos and character as well the different styles of matches he could work.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Throw some classics on the table.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Off the top of my head, I can think of:

Owen v. Bret @ Wrestlemania X (which involved Bret, so it's a wash)
Owen v. Bulldog for the European title (and Bret has a better Bulldog match)

Pretty much at a loss beyond that. You think Owen could have pulled a great match out of Diesel? Bret's more versatile than you're giving him credit for. Check his match with the 1-2-3 Kid to see a different side of him.

It pains me to type all of that, because I LOVE Owen, but when it comes down to it, you'd much rather have a Bret on your roster.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Off the top of my head, I can think of:

Owen v. Bret @ Wrestlemania X (which involved Bret, so it's a wash)
Owen v. Bulldog for the European title (and Bret has a better Bulldog match)

Pretty much at a loss beyond that. You think Owen could have pulled a great match out of Diesel? Bret's more versatile than you're giving him credit for. Check his match with the 1-2-3 Kid to see a different side of him.

It pains me to type all of that, because I LOVE Owen, but when it comes down to it, you'd much rather have a Bret on your roster.

This. And yeah, Owen was definitely a better PERSON than Bret from all I've gathered..... but Bret being a mark for himself and believing he not only belonged at the top but WAS the top is what made him great.

Bret could have pillar to post BRAWLS with Diesel, Taker and Sid and it was believable, where Bret would give and take and the matches were great. Owen was very small (more short than anything, probably weighed close to what Bret weighed) and the "range" of matches against these types of guys was him being beaten up and selling for them.

Some of Owen's best work was in Japan mind you, some fucking epics with Jushin Lyger, Chris Benoit (as Pegasus Kid) and the like. Also had some great matches in Britain against Marty Jones. But this wasn't in the WWF realm, and was when Owen was younger and more mobile.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And as far as Bret's versatility goes. He could brawl with the guys I said, he could have technical masterpieces with Mr. Perfect, hard hitting bruising matches with Chris Benoit, emotionally charged struggles against Davey Boy and catch as catch can style matches against Shawn Michaels. Let's not forget his ability as a tag team specialist.

Pretty much James, you whine about people not liking HHH and yet scoff at Bret Hart. You're entitled to your opinion, you don't have to be a fan, but use your head. Look at the man's body of work, look at what he accomplished and think about why.

[James Steele]

And as far as Bret's versatility goes. He could brawl with the guys I said, he could have technical masterpieces with Mr. Perfect, hard hitting bruising matches with Chris Benoit, emotionally charged struggles against Davey Boy and catch as catch can style matches against Shawn Michaels. Let's not forget his ability as a tag team specialist.

Pretty much James, you whine about people not liking HHH and yet scoff at Bret Hart. You're entitled to your opinion, you don't have to be a fan, but use your head. Look at the man's body of work, look at what he accomplished and think about why.

In the ring, Bret is almost untouchable. His promos were only ever "ok" at best barring a couple of promos in 97 where he was basically shooting. Owen was given DOGSHIT and made it entertaining. Put Bret Hart in the Blue Blazer gimmick and see if its even watcheable.

[Fignuts]

I think Bret's promos as a heel were more than "ok". Face Bret was pretty one dimensional.

Owen was definitely better on the stick.

[James Steele]

Character-wise, I think Owen showed a lot more range and versatility. Bret never really evolved. The only difference was whether or not he was justified in thinking he was better morally/athletically/etc. than who he was facing.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Bret did evolve though, he had a longer career than Owen, and if you look at him from his days in Stampede to who he was as the Hitman he did a lot of growing as a character.

And Bret had to pay his dues as much if not more than Owen. He went from the bottom to the top. And even when he made it to the top, he still had to feud with Jean Pierre Lafitte and Isaac Yankem.....

If I were to compare the 2 personalities to the workers of today, I'd say CM Punk is like Bret. In the sense that he's openly pretty bitter and kind of a mark for himself and has forced his way to the top. Daniel Bryan is probably the better athlete of the two (just like Owen was WAY more athletic than Bret... honestly not even close in that category) and the better pure wrestler... and such a pro that he gets by on being so fucking good, but he doesn't strike me as the same kind of scratching and clawing dick that is CM Punk, and he doesn't seem a mark for himself like Punk. So he'll be like Owen... a guy you can put in a tag team and they'll be immediately a threat and very entertaining thus elevating the tag division by his presence, or a guy who can go on a secondary title run at any point (and in today's climate always be on the outskirts of the world title picture).

[James Steele]

Bret did evolve though, he had a longer career than Owen, and if you look at him from his days in Stampede to who he was as the Hitman he did a lot of growing as a character.

And Bret had to pay his dues as much if not more than Owen. He went from the bottom to the top. And even when he made it to the top, he still had to feud with Jean Pierre Lafitte and Isaac Yankem.....

If I were to compare the 2 personalities to the workers of today, I'd say CM Punk is like Bret. In the sense that he's openly pretty bitter and kind of a mark for himself and has forced his way to the top. Daniel Bryan is probably the better athlete of the two (just like Owen was WAY more athletic than Bret... honestly not even close in that category) and the better pure wrestler... and such a pro that he gets by on being so fucking good, but he doesn't strike me as the same kind of scratching and clawing dick that is CM Punk, and he doesn't seem a mark for himself like Punk. So he'll be like Owen... a guy you can put in a tag team and they'll be immediately a threat and very entertaining thus elevating the tag division by his presence, or a guy who can go on a secondary title run at any point (and in today's climate always be on the outskirts of the world title picture).

Pretty good analogy. I think it has more to do about personality than anything. Owen/DB loved wrestling but it didn't consume them if they weren't the "top guy". Bret and Punk feel truly offended, angry, and empty if they aren't the "top guy". Charisma wise, promo wise, etc., I think Bret has the least of the 4 in the analogy.

[KaosDarksol]

Even before he died he was great. He was even in line for a world title run right before he died

[drave]

Pretty good analogy. I think it has more to do about personality than anything. Owen/DB loved wrestling but it didn't consume them if they weren't the "top guy". Bret and Punk feel truly offended, angry, and empty if they aren't the "top guy". Charisma wise, promo wise, etc., I think Bret has the least of the 4 in the analogy.

But do they feel empty because they feel like the fans should OWE them more, or do they feel empty because they underestimate their own skills?

Reason I bring that up is this: While the "competition" aspect isn't there in terms of wins/losses, you still have to get your shit together to be at the top. So, wouldn't someone that has a true desire BE angry and upset if they weren't at the top? So long as they blame(d) themselves and no one else, this seems perfectly logical in the spirit of competition.

[James Steele]

But do they feel empty because they feel like the fans should OWE them more, or do they feel empty because they underestimate their own skills?

Reason I bring that up is this: While the "competition" aspect isn't there in terms of wins/losses, you still have to get your shit together to be at the top. So, wouldn't someone that has a true desire BE angry and upset if they weren't at the top? So long as they blame(d) themselves and no one else, this seems perfectly logical in the spirit of competition.

Bret did everything but blame himself. Granted, somewhat warrented but he comes off like a bitter old jackass in the HBK/Hart rivalry DVD.

[drave]

I need to watch that DVD. I kinda get where he is coming from, though. From a business standpoint, I get the screw job, but if I were in Bret's shoes, I would be a bitter old jackass too.

I may need to edit that last sentence till I watch that dvd ;)

[Jordan]

Bret Hart worked a heavyweight style and Owen worked a Junior style.... When they met in the ring they had the best matches in the world at the time...

Owen had really good matches with others but his classics were with Bret. I don't think it's a great conversation Bret or Owen, Bret had so many more main event style matches as a babyface, where Owen was a head seeking missile that was in the middle of the card.

Back to Eddie.

The best match I have seen live was The Undertaker vs Eddie in a no dq at a house show. They were so much better than everyone on the card, even HBK that night...

I really wish I could have seen Eddie wrestle Daniel Bryan, Ziggler, and current CM Punk.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Eddie had charisma and in-ring talent, which put asses in seats, which is MORE than enough, but then in 2005 in his heel turn during his feud with Rey he puts on this display of mic skill that I had never seen from him...it’s no wonder they were about to give him a second world title.

Eddie’s last ever title reign in WWE :( (4th WWE Tag Team Championship)
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and 2 months later, on April 21st, just like that...it evaporates :(
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The BEST (by FAR) damn Eddie promo (face OR heel) EVER!!!
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[Kane Knight]

Why do people have so much trouble with "it?" The "it" factor here is no mystery. He was an amazingly likable, charismatic man, so much he could probably make Arizona cheer for a posse of illegal immigrants in 2012 if he were still alive. He was an awesome performer that could handle multiple styles, or at least work with them (a lot of performers aren't as versatile). He could work the microphone and the crowd.

What people usually describe as "it" is the culmination of multiple talents. Skill, charisma, etc. Kind of what Autobahn said, really. Eddie bordered on the perfect storm, and while the hype may have kicked up after he died, he was pretty well cemented as greatness before that.

[DAMN iNATOR]

While there is something to be said for your argument about heart, passion, charisma, mic skill, in-ring skill, etc., none of that even matters to your success as a main-eventer if you’re in WWE and don’t have that certain intangible/x-factor (no, not X-Pac’s move) that means that the fans love/hate you not just for your charisma but also for a certain unknowable reason that they can't help but just love/hate your character every time he/she is seen.

I’m 95% certain that same intangible/x-factor I just described is why his ex-wife gets all the heat she does every time the fans see or hear her.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Why do people have so much trouble with "it?" The "it" factor here is no mystery. He was an amazingly likable, charismatic man, so much he could probably make Arizona cheer for a posse of illegal immigrants in 2012 if he were still alive. He was an awesome performer that could handle multiple styles, or at least work with them (a lot of performers aren't as versatile). He could work the microphone and the crowd.

What people usually describe as "it" is the culmination of multiple talents. Skill, charisma, etc. Kind of what Autobahn said, really. Eddie bordered on the perfect storm, and while the hype may have kicked up after he died, he was pretty well cemented as greatness before that.

That is perhaps the best Kane Knight post ever made. Take it in, folks.

[Mr. Nerfect]

What do you think charisma is, DAMN iNATOR?

[Ultra Mantis]

I'd take a guess at dead mackerel eyes.

[Theo Dious]

Bottom line is, Eddie should have been bigger sooner. They kind of wasted him similar to the way they wasted Austin.

Not to talk shit, but he'd have been bigger sooner if it weren't for his personal issues. Don't blame anyone not pushing a guy who had a hard time staying sober.

[Kane Knight]

While there is something to be said for your argument about heart, passion, charisma, mic skill, in-ring skill, etc., none of that even matters to your success as a main-eventer if you’re in WWE and don’t have that certain intangible/x-factor (no, not X-Pac’s move) that means that the fans love/hate you not just for your charisma but also for a certain unknowable reason that they can't help but just love/hate your character every time he/she is seen.

I’m 95% certain that same intangible/x-factor I just described is why his ex-wife gets all the heat she does every time the fans see or hear her.

She gets heat because her voice is really fucking annoying. She sounds like the deaf and mentally challenged individual Noid probably is.

If people boo her before she says something, it's only in anticipation that she at some point will open her mouth and say something that offends the senses by its very existence. Much like Noid.

"It" is the sum of the parts. There is no mysterious extra factor. Unless it's the WeX factor, but that doesn't apply here.