QUESTION - If Ryback can appeal to the "child demographic", should the WWE turn Cena heel?

[Heyman]

QUESTION - If Ryback can appeal to the "child demographic", should the WWE turn Cena heel?

This thread is an extension to my thread from yesterday. Mind you, not the same type of extension that Kane Knight gets from seeing what he perceives to be a beautiful man, but an extension nonetheless. ;)

So here is my question:

Assuming that.....

1) The WWE are successful in continuing the momentum of Ryback and this isn't just some "flash in the pan" flavor of the month type deal (as some may argue was the case with Zack Ryder)

2) The WWE can successfully make Ryback a hit amongst the pre-teen demographic as they have with Cena...

Should the WWE finally commit to a John Cena heel turn?

[Heyman]

My opinion:




In terms of appealing to the child demographic long term, I see a lot of similarity between Ryback and Ultimate Warrior.

Just as Dolph Ziggler is basically what Billy Gunn was supposed to be in 1999, I think Ryback could just as easily be what Goldberg and Warrior should have been long term.

If the WWE can get Ryback to appeal to kids, then you can finally make the much anticipated John Cena heel turn.

Eventually - Ryback can go over Cena (not at this year's mania but perhaps the one after) in a similar manner to how Goldberg went over Hogan.

[Ruien]

Yes but only for a short time. A year to a year and a half.

I am also assuming Miz will be huge as a face.

[Wishbone]

Meh a Cena heel turn would be fun but I don't see it happening even with Ryback.

[Lock Jaw]

The time to turn Cena heel would have been when CM Punk was still a face. I still think it was a mistake to turn Punk heel.

Heel Cena could have really cemented Punk as tops.

[#1-norm-fan]

Yeah even if Ryback does get a huge child fanbase, WWE wouldn't see it as a replacement for the money Cena brings in. They'd probably just see it as an addition to the money Cena brings in. And thus, I still don't think a Cena heel turn would be in the cards.

[Nicky Fives]

I do not see Ryback doing all of the Make-A-Wish type appearances, as we've only heard him speak in soundbytes..... I don't see him being established enough to pull off the lame "Cena-esque" humor to get over.....as much as we all hate it, Cena is face to stay.....

[Anybody Thrilla]

RYBACK: "Wishes are an admission of weakness. Ryback doesn't make wishes. He makes reservations. Feed. Me. Terminal Illness."

...nope, wouldn't work.

[FourFifty]

No. Cena is way too much of a company face to turn heel within the next 450 years. This is beyond Ryback, but while we're looking at him...
Ryback wouldn't look good with Make-A-Wish, nor would he look good in the media blitz. No sure how Ryback would look good wearing pink for breast cancer research... Rise Above Cancer has a nicer ring to it than Feed Me Cancer.

[drave]

RYBACK: "Wishes are an admission of weakness. Ryback doesn't make wishes. He makes reservations. Feed. Me. Terminal Illness."

...nope, wouldn't work.

This has me in tears! :rofl:

[Lock Jaw]

To combat breast cancer, Ryback will go around and connect with a MEATHOOK CLOTHESLINE to the breasts of breast cancer patients.

[Lock Jaw]

He will then yell "I.... HIT..... HARD" at the top of his lungs.

[FourFifty]

It's like making a 80's/early 90's Hogan heel to push The Warrior...
The Ultimate Warrior could draw with his intensity, but you don't want him snarling on the red carpet or to the media.

[Jordan]

Did my post in your Ryback/Lesnar thread spawn this thread?

Cena would probably be the best heel since Hollywood Hogan as far as "I gotta see this guy get beat".

Imagine if Cena was just more of a Merch shilling cheese dick, but also ruthless and a fucking bastard. Kids would hate him, and if he played the fine line we (or the Cena SUCKS! crew) would still hate him. Then WWE would have the read deal, the biggest star pulling in the strongest audience reaction, as well as making room for the next star baby face.

[Jordan]

Just a thought, would Edge as the mouthpiece for Ryback be fucking awesome?

[Jordan]

Cause Edge with Ryback vs The Bastard Son of a Bitch John Cena would probably fucking huge

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

I think they'd sooner turn Ryback heel, but I would enjoy it. Cena finally is sick of being shit on and now there's his replacement standing there. Don't think I see Ryback connecting with the fans as much as Cena did. Cena is pretty vanilla and Ryback is more rocky road.

[Hanso Amore]

I think he works best as a bad ass submission machine

[Mr. Nerfect]

The time to turn Cena heel would have been when CM Punk was still a face. I still think it was a mistake to turn Punk heel.

Heel Cena could have really cemented Punk as tops.

I agree with this. CM Punk's face run was lost a bit of steam when he became closer to your traditional babyface, but there is no doubt Punk's mic work and ring work were both technically great. He just needed that feud to put him over the top. Cena cashing in the WWE Title Money in the Bank title shot on the 1000th RAW would have been epic. You could have had The Rock hit Punk with a Rock Bottom to set it up, too.

What you achieve out of this is: A darker more opportunistic John Cena. It wouldn't be a heel turn right away, but it would have showcased a more human side to Cena -- one that potentially worries about whether or not he can beat Punk. It also would have given Punk a "me against the world" babyface vibe, which would have been interesting. Punk chasing the WWE Title heading into a potential show-down with The Rock would have been pretty awesome. Heel Cena vs. Face Rock with Rock beating Cena and then a face Punk winning the Royal Rumble to face The Rock at WrestleMania could have worked, too.

I think the success of The Miz's face turn will actually affect John Cena's face/heel status far more than Ryback's will. Ryback is not the same sort of babyface John Cena is. He's not the "public face" of the company. He's a Batista-type. He could theoretically have a long and successful career in the main event in the WWE; but I very much doubt that he's versatile enough to carry the entire promotion on his back.

[Mr. Nerfect]

An interesting turn of events, as far as Ryback is concerned, is if the WWE Title Match at Survivor Series became a Triple Threat Elimination Match, and Cena & Punk worked together to edge out Ryback. Being such a threat that two of the WWE's biggest stars work together to get rid of you is certainly something to take note of.

[Heyman]

Yeah even if Ryback does get a huge child fanbase, WWE wouldn't see it as a replacement for the money Cena brings in. They'd probably just see it as an addition to the money Cena brings in. And thus, I still don't think a Cena heel turn would be in the cards.

Good point.

My only counter to this is that the WWE does need a major "shake up" together people talking again.

Hogan did it in WCW with his heel turn. Why couldn't Cena do something similar?

Cena is naturally hated anyways by most. By virtue of anyone just going up against a heel Cena (I.e. a face Miz, Sheamus, Orton, etc.), those guys could be that much over as a face. In a way - this could kind of be like when Angle and Benoit had their feuds with a heel Austin back in 2001. Both Angle and Benoit got great face-like crowd reactions by virtue of going up against the company's #1 guy......who was a heel.

Lets make no mistake about it. Cena IS far and Way the #1 guy in the company right now regardless of how many days Punk has been champ for. Why not use that to the company's advantage and freshen things up?

[Mr. Nerfect]

A Cena heel turn is the best thing the WWE could do to get attention for their product, you are exactly right.

[Heyman]

No. Cena is way too much of a company face to turn heel within the next 450 years. This is beyond Ryback, but while we're looking at him...
Ryback wouldn't look good with Make-A-Wish, nor would he look good in the media blitz. No sure how Ryback would look good wearing pink for breast cancer research... Rise Above Cancer has a nicer ring to it than Feed Me Cancer.

Again - the same thing could have been said about Hulk Hogan at one point.....and look how the WCW greatly benefitted from committing to the heel turn.

I don't think Ryback would look out place doing any of those charity things as Steve Austin or The Rock would. Or - if Ultimate Warrior or Goldberg had done it back in the day.

Characters evolve.

Back when Cena was doing his Basic Thuganomics gimmick, could we imagine him doing some of the charity work that he's doing now?

[Heyman]

A Cena heel turn is the best thing the WWE could do to get attention for their product, you are exactly right.

Not only that but you can legitimately create top new faces for the company.

Ryback, Sheamus, The Miz, Daniel Bryan, etc., etc.

Think about WCW and think about Hogan's heel turn.

Now - imagine what WCW could have done long term had Hogan been willing to do more clean jobs to the right people.......:drool:

Cena can be that guy.

One problem in the WWE right now, is that even when Cena loses to a heel, it's done in such a way that Cena still looks substantially stronger than his opponent.....and that the only reason why the opponent won was by cheating or interference.

You make Cena heel however, and he can do the clean job to the correct people.

Think: Triple H jobbing to Dave Batista in 2005, Triple H jobbing to John Cena in 2006, Austin jobbing to Kurt Angle in 2001 at No Mercy.

As a heel, Cena can do clean jobs to a worthy wrestler and new "franchise" types can't truly be created this way.

[Heyman]

I think they'd sooner turn Ryback heel, but I would enjoy it. Cena finally is sick of being shit on and now there's his replacement standing there. Don't think I see Ryback connecting with the fans as much as Cena did. Cena is pretty vanilla and Ryback is more rocky road.

Keep in mind that kids view superstars entirely different than you and I might.

While we might find Ryback's gimmick to be potentially one dimensional and boring, don't underestimate kids' loyalty.

We all saw how kids reacted to Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior back in the day, and I think Ryback can do the same. The Ultimate Warrior example is a good one in my opinion.

Kids love winners and aren't as critical over one dimensional gimmicks provided that the one dimensional gimmick whoops ass most of the time and is genuinely a "good" and relatable guy.

[Heyman]

Did my post in your Ryback/Lesnar thread spawn this thread?

Cena would probably be the best heel since Hollywood Hogan as far as "I gotta see this guy get beat".

Imagine if Cena was just more of a Merch shilling cheese dick, but also ruthless and a fucking bastard. Kids would hate him, and if he played the fine line we (or the Cena SUCKS! crew) would still hate him. Then WWE would have the read deal, the biggest star pulling in the strongest audience reaction, as well as making room for the next star baby face.

I think it definitely contributed, lol.

Here's how I would consider booking things from here on out:

-Survivor Series: Lesnar takes out Ryback while CM Punk rolls up a distracted Cena. After SS - Ryback starts his, "feed me Lesnar campaign."

-December PPV: Cena defeats Ziggler. CM Punk defeats Ryback with Lesnar's help once again.

-Royal Rumble: CM Punk defeats The Rock. Lesnar (who brutally attacked Ryback earlier in a sneak attack during the rumble) comes out to help Punk. Cena however comes out. It looks as though Cena is about to nail Lesnar......but instead, Cena hits The Rock with an AA.

Daniel Bryan wins the rumble.

The next night on RAW, Cena explains that it was his goal to win the rumble and face The Rock (whom he thought would be champ) at Mania. He's wanted a rematch against The Rock for over a year now. After being eliminated from the rumble, he realized that the only way he'd get another shot at The Rock is if Rock wasn't champ. Hence - his decision. He wants Rock one on one at Mania.

Feb PPV:

-contract signing between Ryback and Lesnar

Wrestlemania:

-CM Punk vs. Daniel Bryan (Punk retains)
-Ryback vs. Lesnar. Ryback wins cleanly.
-John Cena vs. The Rock. Cena wins cleanly.

After Cena/Rock match however (after being booed mercilessly), Cena finally snaps and flips off the fans. Even after the match when The Rock attempts to shake Cena's hand, Cena hits the Attitude Adjustment instead and really lays it in thick to the fans.

[#1-norm-fan]

Good point.

My only counter to this is that the WWE does need a major "shake up" together people talking again.

Hogan did it in WCW with his heel turn. Why couldn't Cena do something similar?

They were going for different markets though. The reason that isn't a proper comparison is that back then, you could in theory make more money from a heel-loving "fuck the good guys" rebellious teenager crowd than from a crowd of children.

The fan base now doesn't inspire than same confidence. Times have changed and you'd be depending on bringing in a new crowd to offset the little Cena lovers snatching up merchandise.

[Heyman]

Some time after Wrestlemania, im even interested in the idea of a new "Two man Power trip" alliance between CM Punk and John Cena.....with Heyman as their manager. They could be similar to Austin-HHH-Vince......or hell, given what we saw with Heyman/Punk this past RAW where they mocked Lawler, maybe even oldschool DX-like when they had HHH-HBK-Chyna.

A two man power trip of Punk and Cena could win both world/wwe titles and even be tag champs. Automatically, this could put them at odds with the likes of Daniel Bryan/Kane, Orton, Miz, Sheamus, Ryback, etc.

Hell - even a returning face Jericho could go up against one of these guys for a potential one last title run.

[Heyman]

They were going for different markets though. The reason that isn't a proper comparison is that back then, you could in theory make more money from a heel-loving "fuck the good guys" rebellious teenager crowd than from a crowd of children.

The fan base now doesn't inspire than same confidence. Times have changed and you'd be depending on bringing in a new crowd to offset the little Cena lovers snatching up merchandise.

Good points.

Only thing ill say is,

1) Cena's current target demographic wont stay children forever, and can perhaps embrace the "badass" Cena as they evolve themselves.

2) If Ryback is pushed right, perhaps he can appeal to Cena's current market in the exact same way.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I personally did not like the Two-Man Power Trip, and I don't get why people rave about it so much. The WWE had a ready-made money feud RIGHT THERE when Stone Cold Steve Austin aligned with Vince McMahon. When Austin was beating The Rock down in that Steel Cage Match, to explain The Rock's absence while he went to shoot whatever part of The Mummy franchise he was involved with at that time, people were RABID in wanting to see Triple H take that sledgehammer to Austin.

Wasted opportunity.

[Heyman]

It's like making a 80's/early 90's Hogan heel to push The Warrior...
The Ultimate Warrior could draw with his intensity, but you don't want him snarling on the red carpet or to the media.

Good point.

However - I don't think the WCW would have had that problem with Goldberg (or ever had that problem with Goldberg?) and so I don't see why it wouldn't work for Ryback.

[Heyman]

I personally did not like the Two-Man Power Trip, and I don't get why people rave about it so much. The WWE had a ready-made money feud RIGHT THERE when Stone Cold Steve Austin aligned with Vince McMahon. When Austin was beating The Rock down in that Steel Cage Match, to explain The Rock's absence while he went to shoot whatever part of The Mummy franchise he was involved with at that time, people were RABID in wanting to see Triple H take that sledgehammer to Austin.

Wasted opportunity.

True, but had Triple H stayed healthy, we likely would have seen HHH turn face and go up against Austin/Vince.

Over deep time, perhaps we could see Punk do the same and oppose Heyman/Cena.

Regarding Austin however, the guy had some absolute MONEY feuds with Angle and Benoit.....and both men achieved their biggest face-like reactions to date at that time. Had the WWE done the right hing and proceeded with RVD/Austin, the same thing would have happened. At WM 18, a face HHH going over a heel Austin would have been epic.

Bottom line? Austin's heel run produced a very over Angle and Benoit, and could have easily pushed RVD and HHH into that next stratosphere as well.

Current day: Heel Cena can easily allow for guys like Daniel Bryan, Ryback, The Miz, and even Randy Orton to legitimately become franchise faces.

[Nicky Fives]

I think it definitely contributed, lol.

Here's how I would consider booking things from here on out:

-Survivor Series: Lesnar takes out Ryback while CM Punk rolls up a distracted Cena. After SS - Ryback starts his, "feed me Lesnar campaign."

-December PPV: Cena defeats Ziggler. CM Punk defeats Ryback with Lesnar's help once again.

-Royal Rumble: CM Punk defeats The Rock. Lesnar (who brutally attacked Ryback earlier in a sneak attack during the rumble) comes out to help Punk. Cena however comes out. It looks as though Cena is about to nail Lesnar......but instead, Cena hits The Rock with an AA.

Daniel Bryan wins the rumble.

The next night on RAW, Cena explains that it was his goal to win the rumble and face The Rock (whom he thought would be champ) at Mania. He's wanted a rematch against The Rock for over a year now. After being eliminated from the rumble, he realized that the only way he'd get another shot at The Rock is if Rock wasn't champ. Hence - his decision. He wants Rock one on one at Mania.

Feb PPV:

-contract signing between Ryback and Lesnar

Wrestlemania:

-CM Punk vs. Daniel Bryan (Punk retains)
-Ryback vs. Lesnar. Ryback wins cleanly.
-John Cena vs. The Rock. Cena wins cleanly.

After Cena/Rock match however (after being booed mercilessly), Cena finally snaps and flips off the fans. Even after the match when The Rock attempts to shake Cena's hand, Cena hits the Attitude Adjustment instead and really lays it in thick to the fans.

I would actually pay money to see this happen.....

[Heyman]

^^^^^^

Thanks man. :)

[Rollermacka]

Random Thought, would it really change much if Cena turned Heel? The fans kinda proved it at Wrestlemania X8, that they will cheer and boo whoever they want to. Even when Hogan turned heel in 96, I was a little Hulkamaniac and I had a lot of friends who just fallowed him to the NWO.

[Heyman]

Random Thought, would it really change much if Cena turned Heel? The fans kinda proved it at Wrestlemania X8, that they will cheer and boo whoever they want to. Even when Hogan turned heel in 96, I was a little Hulkamaniac and I had a lot of friends who just fallowed him to the NWO.

It will definitely freshen things up.

Think back to 2003 when The Rock turned heel. People still cheered the guy, but his character became completely revitalized......while at the same time, gave the WWE a different look and "feel" ( which is what I think the company desperately needs right now).

Whether Cena is heel or face, he will always have people that will cheer and boo him. Refreshing the environment is what's most important however.

By converting Cena, the WWE is also give a realistic opportunity to create a new "face of the franchise."

Unfortunately - as long as Cena is face, this will be next to impossible to happen. As CM Punk and Sheamus have proven, being a WWE/World champion does not mean that you will automatically be seen as the #1 figurehead of the company.

Cena is still far and away that guy.

Given the reactions Cena gets however, why not create a situation where the fans are literally creaming their pants at the idea of an upstart baby face knocking him off that perch?

[Curd]

I do not see Ryback doing all of the Make-A-Wish type appearances, as we've only heard him speak in soundbytes..... I don't see him being established enough to pull off the lame "Cena-esque" humor to get over.....as much as we all hate it, Cena is face to stay.....

Yeah, most definitely a no-go for Rybck appealing to grade schoolers. Ryback yelled, "You're a dead man!" at Brad Maddox. How is that kid friendly? I believe the one-time Subway sandwich humor was an experiment and won't lead to Ryback's placement into other humorous skits.

Now it might be humorous if a heel whacks a rubber "lead" pipe over Ryback and it bends with Ryback no-selling and then slamming the guy, but that would be "over-the-top Loony Tunes type of violence" funny.

[Heyman]

Yeah, most definitely a no-go for Rybck appealing to grade schoolers. Ryback yelled, "You're a dead man!" at Brad Maddox. How is that kid friendly? I believe the one-time Subway sandwich humor was an experiment and won't lead to Ryback's placement into other humorous skits.

Now it might be humorous if a heel whacks a rubber "lead" pipe over Ryback and it bends with Ryback no-selling and then slamming the guy, but that would be "over-the-top Loony Tunes type of violence" funny.

Getting Ryback to not say that kind of stuff would just be a simple tweak.

Besides - Cena has made a number of homophobic jokes during the PG era and so I don't think a few "deviations" on Ryback's part would be overly bad.

[Curd]

Getting Ryback to not say that kind of stuff would just be a simple tweak.

Besides - Cena has made a number of homophobic jokes during the PG era and so I don't think a few "deviations" on Ryback's part would be overly bad.

I'll grant you the ease of changing the script. I still have difficulty imagining the monstrous Ryback as appealing to children. The kiddies among WCW fans really rooted for Sting, but it is difficult to discern from crowd chants how many kids really marked for him because the adult voices drowned out the kids'.

I remember the Nitro and Thunder cameras picking up way more Sting shirts than Goldberg shirts on children, but I'm not going to sit down and count such occurrences from tapes or anything, so take this junk science with a shaker of salt. :)

[DAMN iNATOR]

Voted yes, and then saw that the "joke option" was getting the most support. And here I am thinking I was being anti-establishment.

Nah, j/k



























































































...or am I??

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Keep in mind that kids view superstars entirely different than you and I might.

While we might find Ryback's gimmick to be potentially one dimensional and boring, don't underestimate kids' loyalty.

We all saw how kids reacted to Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior back in the day, and I think Ryback can do the same. The Ultimate Warrior example is a good one in my opinion.

Kids love winners and aren't as critical over one dimensional gimmicks provided that the one dimensional gimmick whoops ass most of the time and is genuinely a "good" and relatable guy.

But why kill one cash-cow to maybe make another?

[Heyman]

But why kill one cash-cow to maybe make another?

With the hope that the WWE can have a new cash cow while taking their current biggest star (Cena) and completely refreshing his character a la Hogan 1996.