DISCUSSION - Normally, I'm all for heel turns to refresh characters but turning Randy Orton would be a mistake

[Heyman]

DISCUSSION - Normally, I'm all for heel turns to refresh characters but turning Randy Orton would be a mistake.

There have been rumors of turning Orton heel for quite some time now, but I think it would be a mistake on the WWE's part.

-Orton has already done pretty much everything as a heel and had ascended to the top on multiple occasions. Going down this route for Orton wouldn't really do much for the WWE in my opinion.

-Orton, much like guys like Kane, Big Show, and Triple H, have simply been around too long......to the point where a 'turn' wouldn't really have much of a long term shock value.

Heyman's suggestion:

-Keep Orton face
-if you're going to push Orton, simply have him go over the correct people. Period.
-Make Orton more of a badass. Bringing back the punt is a good idea. Letting Orton have a rebellious attitude' like Steve Austin did back in the day is a step in the right direction.

Personally - I think the big money is still in turning John Cena heel at some point. Hopefully, sometime in 2013.

I think a heel Cena vs. face Randy Orton feud would be epic........quite possibly along the same lines as Austin/Angle from 2001 when Austin helped Angle become a huge face (for awhile anyways before the WWE messed it up).

Anyway - that's what I'd do.

[drave]

Great idea, tbh.

Maybe they are doing it for lack of "big heels" on the roster?

I mean, you have Show, Ziggler, Punk and kinda Barrett (hopefully this develops too). Who else is there that garners a decent heel reaction? Vickie doesn't count!

[Heyman]

One extension I'll make to this discussion:

As I implied in the above post, one indirect motivation I have for keeping Orton face is so that the WWE can eventually turn Cena.

I would also like to make a comparison to 2001 when the WWE turned Austin:

-Although Austin's heel run ultimately failed due to the fans' loyalty, Cena would not have that problem. Furthermore, look at some of the matches and feuds Austin had that year...

-Angle
-Benoit
-RVD (indirectly)
-The Rock

Triple H (as a face) would also have been a rival had it not been for his injury.

With the incredible heat Cena would get, I have no doubt in my mind that Cena would help the following guys be even bigger faces than they are now (much like Austin did back in the day)

-Randy Orton
-Sheamus
-The Miz
-Daniel Bryan
-Ryback

Cena, as a heel, could even feud with Undertaker at a future Wrestlemania.

[Heyman]

Great idea, tbh.

Maybe they are doing it for lack of "big heels" on the roster?

I mean, you have Show, Ziggler, Punk and kinda Barrett (hopefully this develops too). Who else is there that garners a decent heel reaction? Vickie doesn't count!

Thanks.

You are probably right in your reasoning. I also hope you are right with Barrett.

Despite Cena's popularity with kids, I think the WWE needs to finally bite the proverbial bullet (or boner) and make the Cena heel turn.

Since I brought up 2001, I think a two-man power trip of Cena and Punk (with Heyman as manager) would be great.

[drave]

No doubt at all he would definitely catapult said faces to "that level" and cement them, especially long-term. I think heel Cena and face Miz would be very over at the moment. I like how they are trying to turn Miz face, but being very delicate about it, keeping the arrogance. Him going over Cena (again) would give him all the face credibility needed.

[Heyman]

No doubt at all he would definitely catapult said faces to "that level" and cement them, especially long-term. I think heel Cena and face Miz would be very over at the moment. I like how they are trying to turn Miz face, but being very delicate about it, keeping the arrogance. Him going over Cena (again) would give him all the face credibility needed.

This. Great point about The Miz.

Another thing that excites me about a potential Cena heel turn (running with the point you made about catapulting faces to "that level" and cementing them), is this:

-Unlike Austin, the fans would genuinely hate Cena.....and hence, making his heel turn effective long term.

-unlike Hogan and Triple H during their primes, politics wouldn't be nearly as much of a factor.

Remember when all of wanted to see guys like Jericho, RVD, Booker T, etc. go over Triple H but never really saw it? Or how about Bret Hart going over Hogan?

With Cena at the helm, I have no doubt that guys like Daniel Bryan, Randy Orton, Sheamus, The Miz, etc. could have a legit shot at becoming THE guy for the company.

Remember - being the #1 guy as a FACE in the company is about 10x more meaningful than being the #1 heel.

Cena, as the #1 heel, could really help whoever get to that level.

[#1-norm-fan]

I'd rather Orton stay face too as I think he's the only guy other than Cena who is "that kind of over". Like the kind of over where it seems like he's been a top guy forever. He has a link to Hogan, Taker, Triple H, HBK, Ric Flair. Who else on the roster can say that? He's got that "old school" feel to him because of it and because he's not an old man himself, he should be treated as THE guy as far as Smackdown goes at least but I think the two strikes make them a little apprehensive to do that at the moment.

The thing is apparently Orton hates being a face. So... I don't know. I guess you gotta keep the man happy. For my money, no one in the company can match Orton as far as that old school wrestling in-ring psychology. Face or heel, I wish he were a staple in the World Title picture.

[Heyman]

Completely agree with the above post and have nothing more to add to that. :y:

Speaking of establishing major faces, Dolph Ziggler is yet another guy that could get over huge going up against a heel Cena.

Unlike in say 2007-2008, I think the "infrastructure" is there now to let Cena turn heel without worrying about who can take his spot.

[#1-norm-fan]

The Hennig comparisons are well deserved, but I can see Ziggler as a Flair type heel workhorse too. I don't know if I'd wanna see him turn face before he shined as a main event heel (ala Hennig and Flair) and rode that out. I think having him drop Vicky though once he's got the title and she no longer has any GM power to help his career would be a good move. Then add Flair as his manager once he's World champ to help take him to the NEXT level...

[#1-norm-fan]

Ziggler is capable of talking. But Flair as a mouthpiece who does MOST of the talking, letting Ziggler get some stuff in here and there but focusing mostly on doing and not talking could be incredible. I just have this mental image of a pre-match backstage interview with Matt Striker where Flair is hyping up his man as God's gift to wrestling while Ziggler does jumping jacks off to the side a little.

[Heyman]

The Hennig comparisons are well deserved, but I can see Ziggler as a Flair type heel workhorse too. I don't know if I'd wanna see him turn face before he shined as a main event heel (ala Hennig and Flair) and rode that out. I think having him drop Vicky though once he's got the title and she no longer has any GM power to help his career would be a good move. Then add Flair as his manager once he's World champ to help take him to the NEXT level...

Yes definitely.

I was thinking more along the lines of something way down the road. Or something that the WWE could atleast "go to" if they needed it.

Even with a brief face run, you could also have Ziggler turn back shortly after (I.e. like Angle did back in 2001 after being face against Austin).

[Emperor Smeat]

He might be better off as a tweener more than as strictly as a face or as a heel. His current Apex Predator/Viper gimmick works out pretty in that role since he can do heelish things (ex. head punt, the DDT from the ropes) and still have the crowd cheer for him.

It would also let Ziggler stay as a heel and Sheamus as a face without having to turn either one for a feud with Orton to be possible.

As a face, he'd still play second fiddle to Sheamus who took his spot as the "face" of Smackdown or the Cena of that brand.

[The Condor]

Personally, I don't like Orton, he's very vanilla for me. But a wide swath of people do like him, so he should swallow them keeping him face because of his self-inflicted 2 strikes and be happy he has a spot near the top of the card regardless of his characters status.

[Rammsteinmad]

In all fairness, it's a good idea, but I don't see Cena turning anytime ever. However, there were those reports floating around a while back that WWE are starting to track down and groom the next "face of the company". May as well let the current face of the company step down and see who steps up.

[James Steele]

They need to have Orton put over mother fuckers left and right until he fucks up again and then ship his ass to Orlando to rot in mediocrity.

[Hanso Amore]

Yes.

A Heel Cena would get major heat right away. Let him run a few months of matches and dominance after Wrestlemania.

at WM Cena vs whomever, make it epic. If Lesnar, Lesnar goes over and leaves. If Taker, Taker goes over and leaves. This part can change.

Afterwards tease Cena finally "giving in" to the Hate from last year. He tries to be a good guy and still gets booed and hated by most people. Blah Blah. Heel. He takes the title of the Rock or whomever comes out of WM as the champ. Then give him a few months of dominance. Defending against guys like a Face Miz, Daniel Bryan, Sheamus, and then a returning Mark Henry (Cena is in the ring talking about how no one can stop him ,Henry's music hits and he comes out and Cena shits his pants)

Cena goes over them all. Then Orton steps up and they have a nice 3 month feud ending with Orton going over Cena for the title.

Money.

[Hanso Amore]

Ugh, Forgive my formatting and grammar, im on my ipad in a car and the bumps are messing me up.

[Hanso Amore]

Hell you could even use my idea in reverse with Henry.

Cena goes over Orton at Summerslam after beating those other guys for a few months. SHeamus moves to Raw and Punk to Smackdown after mania and Punk is WHC defending to a face Ziggler. So Cena has dominated Raw from WM to SS. Orton goes down and it looks like no one can stop Heel Cena.

MARK HENRY FACE TURN. He takes down Cena, and you would have a legit Face Henry as champ.

[Hanso Amore]

Basically turning Cena Heel is good money, and it is a chance to really make a new face. I think Sheamus is doing well enough as is. They could really use a Heel Cena to make a top guy.

Making Orton Heel wouldnt really elevate any new faces. IMHO.

[James Steele]

WWE should never put the belt on Orton again or rely on him for anything other than a non-title upper midcard/main event feud.

[MoFo]

I agree w/ Heyman, he was awful as a heel last time out and everyone moaned saying he should be a babyface.

Since then theyve cut his time on the mic (so no slow, robotic monotonous promos) and he's had a bunch of brilliant matches. I don't see any reason to change him other than the usual ADD internet reasons like "duh hes boring as a babyface"

[Rammsteinmad]

I don't find him boring, but some of his feuds have been pretty dull lately. Really haven't gotten into his entire feud with Del Rio, but I find Del Rio to be really bland, to be honest.

[BizarroKing]

The problem is, Orton is, for a lack of better terms, boring as a face. When he was a heel, he had character more or less. Which is why a heel turn could be a good move for both Orton and WWE.

[James Steele]

How did he have more character as a heel? The only difference was he acted more spastic and was mean to good guys instead of babyfaces. Orton spent the first half of his career as generic cocky heel and now spent the second half as badass/angry heel.

[The Condor]

He's honestly a fast forward segment. He's bland, his in ring work is predictable to the point that each match, aside from opponent, is nearly the same, and his vocal abilities even after a decade are some of the most wretched segments. Why do people care, honestly? I want to see him become a jobber to the top guys and up and comers and sell merch to kids. That's all he can do.