Clockshot presents: The last Minute RAW Thread 11-26-2012

[Aikido]

Is it just me or is Brett Farve looking more and more like Ron Pearlman these days?

[Droford]

What stuff is 90% off?

[Juan]

What stuff is 90% off?

My guess is that you have to go to the website to find out.

[Cool King]

I get a very strong "TNA Vibe" from Ambrose and Rollins. Ambrose more than Rollins though.

[Droford]

Why have I never seen the cm punk best in the underworld shirt before lol..its awesome

[Aikido]

well replaying that now, is just like saying, there gonna come attack kane, possibly shield v hell no at tlc(highly unlikely)

[Droford]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcbjpoN0491rpw70to1_500.jpg

[Frank Drebin]

So are we going to get something happening other than a normal match to close out the show? A Ryback run-in maybe?

[Frank Drebin]

Lawler just seems like hes been rambling all night.

[Frank Drebin]

Roman looks like a combo of Bossman and Al Snow

[Aikido]

Called that one.......

[Aikido]

Cue bryan

[Frank Drebin]

Shield? Did Vince just get around to watching the Avengers?

[The Condor]

Indeed

[#1-norm-fan]

"Feed me more" chants. :D

[Frank Drebin]

What do these three use for finishers on NXT?

[Cool King]

GORE! GORE! GORE! by a Samoan Rhyno!

[Frank Drebin]

Hello there Poit....what did Poit think of tonights show?

[Aikido]

What do these three use for finishers on NXT?
I know Tyler Black does that stupid blackout move, a jumping stomp to someones head, freakin retarded

[Frank Drebin]

how 'bout you Droford?

[Droford]

It was ok

[Frank Drebin]

or Smelly Meatball or #1-WWF-Fan?

[#1-norm-fan]

I miss when crowds would chant loudly for the babyface to come out. Fuck everyone who's against Ryback's push.

[#1-norm-fan]

I think Ryback needs to get the upper-hand more. Even outside of just being a fan of his, the whole "getting outnumbered and beaten down" thing is getting monotonous fast. It's making him look less and less threatening.

[Frank Drebin]

Not against the push, just hate when people get all hyped up for a guy who was the other Brudus Clay just a couple of months ago.

[Frank Drebin]

Ryback also dosent seem like the next big thing right now. The popular comp is Goldberg, but now that thats been done he needs to find a niche of his own to have staying power. Thats the part I have yet to see.

[Emperor Smeat]

or Smelly Meatball or #1-WWF-Fan?

It was ok.

Matches were pretty good and leaning right now on Sheamus vs Ceasario as the best one. The affair storyline is still pretty stupid but the voting skit between Bryan and Kane was hilarious.

Ryback needs more time although not his fault since the WWE skipped his whole mid-card push and went straight to a main event push. Also pretty blatant that most of the "Feed Me More" chants are piped in now but the crowd loves the chant more than Ryback right now.

[#1-norm-fan]

Not against the push, just hate when people get all hyped up for a guy who was the other Brudus Clay just a couple of months ago.

So? The guy's the goods. Why wouldn't people be hyped to see a new star being made after all the inability for the company to do so?

[Frank Drebin]

BTW, I like the thought of a round table discussion like the Mcglaughlin Group going:

"WHAT DO YOU THINK, SMELLY MEATBALL?"

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=I.4939840229081221&pid=15.1

[#1-norm-fan]

lol. McLaughlin Group reference in the Raw topic.

[Frank Drebin]

So? The guy's the goods. Why wouldn't people be hyped to see a new star being made after all the inability for the company to do so?

They can get hyped if they want, I just dont see the twinkle in the eye. Just red puss still. He dosent tell the story in the ring to call him "the goods" just yet. Anyone can get booked to beat a couple of jobbers week in and week out. The fans are rooting for Ryback, not because you want him to win, just to see the heel get whats coming to him. Once that happens, what next? Itl be like when two characters from a network TV show finally break all the sexual tension and shtoop. Youve been using that one story to hold up the entire character, so now what. Its not like you can say WWE knows what the long term plan for Ryback is since he is in the title picture on a whim to begin with.

[Frank Drebin]

Im willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, and I sure hope they are in the midst of creating a bankable guy but I'm just a dork who thinks most of the story is told in the ring. Ziggler had the twinkle, we all saw that eons ago. Can you honestly say you see the same with Ryback?

[Frank Drebin]

lol. McLaughlin Group reference in the Raw topic.

Thats what I'm here for. :cool:

[Frank Drebin]

SMELLY MEATBALL....WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS???

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=I.4691509547501667&pid=15.1

[#1-norm-fan]

Yes. He's got an amazing look for a "sports entertainment" main eventer and he's not inept in the ring or on the mic no matter how much people want to believe he is. I believe in-ring storytelling is a huge deal too. I also believe there's room for different styles of entertainment within the realm of pro-wrestling in 2012 and the ass kicking babyface Ryback can be ridiculously valuable. Ziggler can be valuable as well. Why can't we have the Goldbergs and the Ric Flairs exist in the same main event scene?

[Frank Drebin]

We can, and that would be a great feud but the actual match would probably suck. Its just so hard to sell offense against a guy who seems unstoppable. He just shakes off most attacks to begin with and we would then be asked to believe that the Ric Flair type is a threat in a physical confrontation. Its the payoff I'm most concerned about with him right now, but what else is new in the WWE I guess.

[Emperor Smeat]

SMELLY MEATBALL....WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS???

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=I.4691509547501667&pid=15.1

He needs more time to develop than anything really specific although a mouthpiece or manager would have helped a lot with any promo issues he has. Punk has been his first real feud with the Mahal feud more of a mini-test feud which means the WWE rushed him too much.

Ideally his big moments should be happening around Mania and not now if the WWE really wants him as the next mega star even if it means he gets "held" back a little. Stone Cold had several mini-moments but he didn't get his future star moment until the time of the feud against Hart leading to the double turn at Mania.

[Poit]

Hello there Poit....what did Poit think of tonights show?

It was fine, except for the segment with Ryback & Vickie near the start. That was painfully awkward.

[Frank Drebin]

He needs more time to develop than anything really specific although a mouthpiece or manager would have helped a lot with any promo issues he has. Punk has been his first real feud with the Mahal feud more of a mini-test feud which means the WWE rushed him too much.

Ideally his big moments should be happening around Mania and not now if the WWE really wants him as the next mega star even if it means he gets "held" back a little. Stone Cold had several mini-moments but he didn't get his future star moment until the time of the feud against Hart leading to the double turn at Mania.

Is his moment a heel turn or is the current trajectory of his character where it needs to be in order to make him a star? If not what and when is his moment going to be?

[James Steele]

I enjoyed RAW, and I actually like the AJ/Cena/Vickie/Dolph storyline. Dolph is showing more edge and aggressiveness in hanging with the "big dogs". It ties together Vickie screwing AJ out of the GM spot and putting together Cena and Dolph without a random beatdown or something. There is a story and some emotion involved in this feud. Cena isn't just being his usual obnoxious good guy self in this thing and Dolph isn't just being Billy Gunn Lite with proof that he went to Shawn Michaels' School of Selling. This feud is going to propel Dolph into the main event with a lot of momentum and his first real major feud with a main eventer.

[Droford]

Pissed I can't get one of those shirts

[Frank Drebin]

Damn, seems like you're the only one for the most part. Just hoping it leads somewhere. What's at stake here for all if them anyway?

[Frank Drebin]

Pissed I can't get one of those shirts

What? An #AJall t-shirt?

[James Steele]

Damn, seems like you're the only one for the most part. Just hoping it leads somewhere. What's at stake here for all if them anyway?

Vickie screwed AJ. AJ has been emotionally unstable forever now. Cena is friends with AJ. This whole thing has driven them closer together and now it has manifested itself in a way that Dolph and Vickie's harrassment as come true in many ways and allows for them to torment Cena/AJ even more as Vickie tries to cement herself as the permanent GM and also get her man Dolph into the main event. Makes sense.

Ryback is fine. He is showing that he is human and his promos aren't bad. The Shield thing is interesting. Are they or aren't they with CM Punk? There is evidence for both being correct based on their interview and their actions. I love it when you can see and understand where a heel is coming from and he is justified. It creates extra tension and adds to the suspense of whether or not they truly just feel like they are righting wrongs or are simply henchmen for a paranoid champion doing everything he can to keep his title and maintain his historic reign. By doing this, Ryback no longer will suffer from Goldberg/Hoss syndrome in that when he loses he loses all mystique and the lack of depth is exposed. Ryback is starting to flesh out his character and his emotions. Ryback is pissed. Ryback isn't afraid to intimidate to get what he wants. Ryback keeps getting screwed and this "animal" is getting backed into a corner. What will he do? What will CM Punk do? Can The Shield keep saving him? What if Ryback becomes the one getting wronged? What happens then? They are teasing Ryback winning the title and making the fans want to see it more and more. The biggest problem for years has been WWE using the belt to make the star instead of giving the belt to a star to cement him as he finally achieves something he has fought for. The money is always in the chase and not the reign. CM Punk/Ryback is perfect for that.

[Droford]

Damn, seems like you're the only one for the most part. Just hoping it leads somewhere. What's at stake here for all if them anyway?

Aj will heel turn with dolph, she'll be with him when he cashes in on sheamus and she'll cost him just like she cost goat face. Dolph dumps her..to be continued

[Droford]

Shield is righting the wrong of Kane being neutered in the tag team with Daniel bryan with hug it out.
He'll go back to being a super villain..err..

[James Steele]

Damn, seems like you're the only one for the most part. Just hoping it leads somewhere. What's at stake here for all if them anyway?

I don't get this mentality at all. I've done it before and do it now sometimes, but it screams "missing the forest for the trees". You enjoy the culmination of a story when you actually follow and get into a story. If you are only worried about what the end result is instead of enjoying the story, you'll never really be happy with the ending because you never got that invested in the story to begin with other than confirming your own apathy.

[James Steele]

Everyone complains about the lack of long-term thought or booking by WWE, but when they do a storyline for more than 1 ppv cycle it becomes a "WWE doesn't know what the fuck they are doing" or "Jesus, how fucking long is this shit going to go on?" or "How the fuck can this end in any way, shape, or form that I will enjoy?"

[James Steele]

Not saying this shit is Shakespeare, but the storylines are coherent and are telling a story that people can get at least somewhat emotionally invested in if they want to.

[James Steele]

They are slowly building up Kofi and building back up the prestige of the Intercontinental Championship.

The tag team division hasn't been this diverse and visible in a decade.

Sheamus/Big Show has lasted longer and been a million times better than I ever imagined.

They are fleshing out Antonio Caesaro.

Damien Sandow is getting fleshed out as a character and has been put in awesome situations where he is viewed as an upper midcarder. I imagine a feud with Cody Rhodes going into WrestleMania would be very nice.

Kane/Daniel Bryan has been hilarious, awesome, and cemented Daniel Bryan as a bonafide star. In turn, this has helped said tag division earlier.

Dolph Ziggler/Cena is going to be the slingshot for Dolph Ziggler to finally take his place in the main event. Just like anything, WWE making us wait and building to it will make it much more worth it. They didn't just throw the title on Austin in 96/97 did they? No, they put him in more and more high profile matches until it was basically demanded that he become World Champion. Dolph Ziggler's cheers earlier this year were that same idea.

The Miz's face turn is helping breathe new life into a tired character. The Miz dropped out of the main event because his schtick as a heel got fucking old.

Wade Barrett is slowly being brought back to where he was after the long injury time out.

Yes, they aren't throwing all these guys in epic midcard feuds but they are building up the characters so when they do put them in feuds we actually give a fuck. WWE has consistently been pretty damn good for the better part of 2-3 years. Since the build to WrestleMania 25, I feel like WWE has been thoroughly good with a few bleak spots. WrestleMania 27 was the low-point, and I think that was because WWE over-estimated how important doing the Rock/Cena angle at that Mania was to their match at WM28.

[#1-norm-fan]

Not saying this shit is Shakespeare, but the storylines are coherent

"Coherent" is a stretch...

[James Steele]

"Coherent" is a stretch...

What is hard to understand about any of the storylines WWE is doing? Please tell me. There aren't any glaring plotholes in anything. Just because you don't like it, think it could be done better, or you simply are over-thinking everything doesn't mean it is a clusterfuck.

[#1-norm-fan]

Still don't really know if Vickie is trying to prove Cena and AJ had an affair... or if she's moved onto just being a bitch now.

Also, are we going to find out what the deal was with the phone messages? Because it seems like things have moved past that point and there's no reason to go back and "get to the bottom of it" storyline-wise so it's just kind of an "unsolved mystery".

I think you give entirely too much credit for WWE's ability to do things for a reason and with an endpoint in mind.

[#1-norm-fan]

Plus I really don't feel like The Shield attacking Tyson Kidd and Santino is going to make sense at any point now that they've given their reason for what they've been doing. Seems like it was an example of "Umm... we don't know what we want your motive to be. Go out and attack two random jobbers and when we think of the motive, hopefully it will connect with you attacking two random guys."

[James Steele]

Still don't really know if Vickie is trying to prove Cena and AJ had an affair... or if she's moved onto just being a bitch now.

Also, are we going to find out what the deal was with the phone messages? Because it seems like things have moved past that point and there's no reason to go back and "get to the bottom of it" storyline-wise so it's just kind of an "unsolved mystery".

I think you give entirely too much credit for WWE's ability to do things for a reason and with an endpoint in mind.

Wasn't it pretty clear that it was all doctored bullshit to get AJ fired and get her the job? AJ resigned because she didn't want to hurt her friend, Cena, because of Vickie being a bitch. AJ and Cena started making out just to say "Fuck it, no more shocking evidence she can bring out now." Vickie in turn is being a huge bitch because AJ and Cena got the one-up but now they have emotions for each other and Vickie/Dolph is using that to their advantage to regain control over the situation and use it to give Dolph an advantage as he attacks "the big dog" in WWE. All the "evidence" was to create some doubt and intrigue, but it was pretty well stated that Vickie was pulling this shit out of her ass. It isn't like there was EVER anything conclusively saying AJ was getting her attitude adjusted and her cunt ravaged.

[James Steele]

Plus I really don't feel like The Shield attacking Tyson Kidd and Santino is going to make sense at any point now that they've given their reason for what they've been doing. Seems like it was an example of "Umm... we don't know what we want your motive to be. Go out and attack two random jobbers and when we think of the motive, hopefully it will connect with you attacking two random guys."

It was on Superstars. Superstars isn't even on TV in the U.S. It doesn't matter and you and a handful of people are the only ones who care or remember. If anything, it was just to blur the lines so it wasn't just solely them attacking Ryback.

[James Steele]

Also, since they actually announced their intentions tonight maybe they do more "righting wrongs" throughout the WWE. I'll give it a few weeks before I shit all over it. Maybe WWE had something in mind as a side story or something for them on top of this but decided to drop it. Wouldn't surprise me and doesn't really matter.

[#1-norm-fan]

Is it clear that it was doctored bullshit? I mean... to us it was always clear as it would be weird if the faces were the ones lying all along and the heel was actually justified in the things she was doing.

Storyline-wise though, when/how was it revealed that the evidence that Vickie brought up and was even strong enough to get AJ suspended from her job was all just bullshit. Doesn't it seem like that would be a pretty huge thing you might wanna reveal and not just be like "Yeah, you guys probably knew it was all bullshit. Gonna go ahead and slowly move on from that and just keep Vickie as GM despite the fact that she doctored shit to make it look like the ex GM fucked a superstar. As if that isn't grounds for her being terminated."

[#1-norm-fan]

It was on Superstars. Superstars isn't even on TV in the U.S. It doesn't matter and you and a handful of people are the only ones who care or remember. If anything, it was just to blur the lines so it wasn't just solely them attacking Ryback.

So WWE gets a pass on nonsensical booking depending on the show? "Blurring the lines" is a pretty shitty excuse. lol Within the "WWE Universe" something happened that literally made no sense. "Aah, they're just blurring the lines" is not a reason to have characters do shit that makes no sense.

[#1-norm-fan]

Also, since they actually announced their intentions tonight maybe they do more "righting wrongs" throughout the WWE. I'll give it a few weeks before I shit all over it. Maybe WWE had something in mind as a side story or something for them on top of this but decided to drop it. Wouldn't surprise me and doesn't really matter.

I'd fully believe WWE had an idea and dropped it after they already went through with it. It happens a lot. The entire booking of Survivor Series for example when they basically wasted an episode of Raw on shit that they changed their mind about doing and basically had a "do-over" Raw the next week. You wouldn't call that clusterfuck booking?

[Juan]

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being the highest, what is your current enjoyment level of WWE, #1-wwf-fan?

[James Steele]

I'd fully believe WWE had an idea and dropped it after they already went through with it. It happens a lot. The entire booking of Survivor Series for example when they basically wasted an episode of Raw on shit that they changed their mind about doing and basically had a "do-over" Raw the next week. You wouldn't call that clusterfuck booking?

No because they used Vince McMahon to explain it all away. Vince is convinced CM Punk was in on the Maddox situation and wants to see him lose the strap. Vince basically tells Vickie to book Cena/Punk/Ryback and fuck the Foley/Punk SS match she booked last week. It wasn't just like they completely dropped the tag match and made a 3-way without explaining it. They did it within the scope of the past month's storyline. Also why in that same segment Vince made Maddox/Ryback for the $1,000,000 contract. Remember the whole, "Punk, we shouldn't make an enemy out of Vince McMahon" thing? Also, how they brought up tonight that Vickie might be screwing Punk to keep Vince happy despite the AJ/Vickie fiasco. Also, AJ resigned before the evidence came out so there is nothing WWE would logically do. It's the Catch 22 we see all the time in politics and everything else. Hard to prove a negative and it is easier just to quit than fight through the allegations and fight for your job.

[#1-norm-fan]

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being the highest, what is your current enjoyment level of WWE, #1-wwf-fan?

Ummm... it's tough because I absolutely LOVE some things. And soon after TLC until at least WrestleMania it's gonna be the goods because they know how to book the part-timers who are gonna be around during that time.

As for now, it's just coasting and it doesn't seem like the writers give much of a fuck. The Big Show/Sheamus stuff brings things up. And Ryback is there... even know they're kinda just in stall mode with him too until Punk can move onto The Rock. I'd go like... 4.

[James Steele]

#1-wwf-fan, I understand you don't enjoy WWE as much as I do but you constantly complain about the booking and everything that I think you make it damn near impossible for you to enjoy it. If a throw away segment on Superstars keeps you up at night, then I don't get how you can watch any of the WWE storylines and enjoy it. Do you hate that Sandow has all but forgotten Cody Rhodes was his tag partner for a few months? You shouldn't because it accomplishes nothing to have him in a tag team that doesn't exist for a few months and instead they are pushing him as a singles star. I think Cody returning as a tweener/babyface and feuding with Sandow would be quite interesting and a good storyline and match.

[dronepool]

I liked the main event/ending.

[James Steele]

Ummm... it's tough because I absolutely LOVE some things. And soon after TLC until at least WrestleMania it's gonna be the goods because they know how to book the part-timers who are gonna be around during that time.

As for now, it's just coasting and it doesn't seem like the writers give much of a fuck. The Big Show/Sheamus stuff brings things up. And Ryback is there... even know they're kinda just in stall mode with him too until Punk can move onto The Rock. I'd go like... 4.

What is so bad about "stalling" with Ryback? It'd be dumb to just throw the strap on him. Being a TLC match, he can look strong as usual and lose in a way that is semi-clean and both men look good coming out of it. Punk needs to look damn good going into the match with The Rock and Ryback would leave with momentum going forward into Mania and making the fans want to see him finally get his "meal" and win the title later in 2013. It is wrestling 101 and isn't illogical or all that "annoying" unless you choose to ignore the big picture for the mustard stain on the bottom corner that you won't even see when it is put in a picture frame anyway.

[#1-norm-fan]

No because they used Vince McMahon to explain it all away. Vince is convinced CM Punk was in on the Maddox situation and wants to see him lose the strap. Vince basically tells Vickie to book Cena/Punk/Ryback and fuck the Foley/Punk SS match she booked last week. It wasn't just like they completely dropped the tag match and made a 3-way without explaining it. They did it within the scope of the past month's storyline. Also why in that same segment Vince made Maddox/Ryback for the $1,000,000 contract. Remember the whole, "Punk, we shouldn't make an enemy out of Vince McMahon" thing? Also, how they brought up tonight that Vickie might be screwing Punk to keep Vince happy despite the AJ/Vickie fiasco. Also, AJ resigned before the evidence came out so there is nothing WWE would logically do. It's the Catch 22 we see all the time in politics and everything else. Hard to prove a negative and it is easier just to quit than fight through the allegations and fight for your job.

Explaining it away to change up the card doesn't stop it from being a clusterfuck. It's clear that their plans for Survivor Series changed within the week. I think you'd agree with that. And they totally scrapped a card including a Punk-Foley feud and ended up with Foley managing a team for no reason and standing there in the corner during the match as if he cared about the outcome of this match because his name was attached to one of the teams based on a feud with a guy that isn't even on the other side anymore. lol That kind of quick change of plans and shuffling what guys are doing and having people in situations with no explanation is not a good way to build consistency. It is clusterfucky.

And I'm not saying it doesn't make sense that AJ didn't get her job back. But don't you think if it's as clear as you say it's been made out to be that Vickie doctored this evidence against AJ to push her out of a job then maybe that would be grounds for Vickie's termination and not just brushed off?

[#1-norm-fan]

#1-wwf-fan, I understand you don't enjoy WWE as much as I do but you constantly complain about the booking and everything that I think you make it damn near impossible for you to enjoy it. If a throw away segment on Superstars keeps you up at night, then I don't get how you can watch any of the WWE storylines and enjoy it.

The throwaway segment didn't bother me really. But it's a good example to throw out there when trying to make the point that the writers seem to have no idea what they wanna do and fly by the seat of their pants constantly.

[#1-norm-fan]

Do you hate that Sandow has all but forgotten Cody Rhodes was his tag partner for a few months? You shouldn't because it accomplishes nothing to have him in a tag team that doesn't exist for a few months and instead they are pushing him as a singles star. I think Cody returning as a tweener/babyface and feuding with Sandow would be quite interesting and a good storyline and match.

I don't mind the fact that Sandow seemed to have forgotten Cody was his tag partner. Cody is injured. That's not the writers changing shit up randomly. That's a guy getting injured and them having to regroup and do something else with his tag partner. Makes perfect sense.

Personally, and this is separate from my issue with writers' laziness, I prefer Sandow on his own anyway as I think Cody is too bland and he just brings down an awesome character in Sandow by making him part of a team with him.

[#1-norm-fan]

What is so bad about "stalling" with Ryback? It'd be dumb to just throw the strap on him. Being a TLC match, he can look strong as usual and lose in a way that is semi-clean and both men look good coming out of it. Punk needs to look damn good going into the match with The Rock and Ryback would leave with momentum going forward into Mania and making the fans want to see him finally get his "meal" and win the title later in 2013. It is wrestling 101 and isn't illogical or all that "annoying" unless you choose to ignore the big picture for the mustard stain on the bottom corner that you won't even see when it is put in a picture frame anyway.

What I meant by "stalling with Ryback" was that this feud is just three months of Punk obviously retaining and just filling time until they move onto feuds after TLC (Punk with Rock and hopefully Ryback with Lesnar). So right now it just comes off as monotonous as everyone looks forward to January knowing the outcome of this feud.

I don't want them to throw the strap on Ryback. It's just the downside of all but having a few booked in advance. We know where this feud is going and it's just a "Alright, can we just tear December off the calender to get to the ACTUAL intriguing title defense Punk is gonna make?"

The Hell in a Cell match felt huge. One of the best "big fight feels" for a main event in recent memory because any outcome would have been such a major deal. Survivor Series was kinda clear with it being a triple threat that Cena would take the pin. Now it's a match Punk can win by climbing a ladder and Ryback doesn't have to be pinned and so there's really no intrigue to the outcome. They're between a rock and a hard place. I can't bash them TOO much for it because there's just really not many options they have at this point. But it definitely feels like it's "stall" mode for the next month.

[James Steele]

Explaining it away to change up the card doesn't stop it from being a clusterfuck. It's clear that their plans for Survivor Series changed within the week. I think you'd agree with that. And they totally scrapped a card including a Punk-Foley feud and ended up with Foley managing a team for no reason and standing there in the corner during the match as if he cared about the outcome of this match because his name was attached to one of the teams based on a feud with a guy that isn't even on the other side anymore. lol That kind of quick change of plans and shuffling what guys are doing and having people in situations with no explanation is not a good way to build consistency. It is clusterfucky.

And I'm not saying it doesn't make sense that AJ didn't get her job back. But don't you think if it's as clear as you say it's been made out to be that Vickie doctored this evidence against AJ to push her out of a job then maybe that would be grounds for Vickie's termination and not just brushed off?

It is wrestling. Suspension of disbelief and not being anal about every little detail is part of the gig. It was never crystal clear from the beginning because they were creating suspense. The evidence was never "solid" though, and AJ saying the voicemails were bullshit and Vickie basically dropping the "evidence" for personal insults and attacks from Dolph showed they were full of shit.

Also, yes they change things up but that is a necessity in the business. If anything, the way they changed the card within the framework of the storylines shows that they do know what they are doing and are smart enough to provide themselves with "outs" as shit changes a lot in pro wrestling.

The throwaway segment didn't bother me really. But it's a good example to throw out there when trying to make the point that the writers seem to have no idea what they wanna do and fly by the seat of their pants constantly.

They clearly have an idea of what they want to do, it is just a matter of scope and the powers-that-be changing it. I don't think the story that Vince thought the 3-way title match would be a better draw for the PPV main event than the Survivor Series match is all that unlikely and they probably adjusted accordingly since that is their job. They may reference the Superstars thing later as they just mentioned their intentions TONIGHT so more will come in the ensuing weeks. I just don't think you can shit on storylines and everything while they are in progress and just now developing because of a few plotholes/details that very well may be filled later on or may not matter in the end at all. Maybe they just think Santino is a fucking joke, so they beat the fuck out of them both. Who knows?

[James Steele]

What I meant by "stalling with Ryback" was that this feud is just three months of Punk obviously retaining and just filling time until they move onto feuds after TLC (Punk with Rock and hopefully Ryback with Lesnar). So right now it just comes off as monotonous as everyone looks forward to January knowing the outcome of this feud.

I don't want them to throw the strap on Ryback. It's just the downside of all but having a few booked in advance. We know where this feud is going and it's just a "Alright, can we just tear December off the calender to get to the ACTUAL intriguing title defense Punk is gonna make?"

You know Superman is going to win in the end. You know Batman is going to kick ass and save the day. Just because you know the ending doesn't mean the story sucks. We all knew Rock/Foley was just busy work until The Rock faced Austin at WrestleMania but it didn't make the story any less interesting (and they had some clusterfucks in that feud). Once again, "missing the forest for the trees". Since it is predictable, they should just randomly throw Punk in with somebody out of the blue. If anything, there is more of a chance of Ryback winning at TLC than anybody else on the roster. Is it highly unlikely, absolutely, but that doesn't automatically make the story itself bad, boring, or a clusterfuck.

[#1-norm-fan]

It is wrestling. Suspension of disbelief and not being anal about every little detail is part of the gig. It was never crystal clear from the beginning because they were creating suspense. The evidence was never "solid" though, and AJ saying the voicemails were bullshit and Vickie basically dropping the "evidence" for personal insults and attacks from Dolph showed they were full of shit.

Also, yes they change things up but that is a necessity in the business. If anything, the way they changed the card within the framework of the storylines shows that they do know what they are doing and are smart enough to provide themselves with "outs" as shit changes a lot in pro wrestling.

They clearly have an idea of what they want to do, it is just a matter of scope and the powers-that-be changing it. I don't think the story that Vince thought the 3-way title match would be a better draw for the PPV main event than the Survivor Series match is all that unlikely and they probably adjusted accordingly since that is their job. They may reference the Superstars thing later as they just mentioned their intentions TONIGHT so more will come in the ensuing weeks. I just don't think you can shit on storylines and everything while they are in progress and just now developing because of a few plotholes/details that very well may be filled later on or may not matter in the end at all. Maybe they just think Santino is a fucking joke, so they beat the fuck out of them both. Who knows?

I'm mainly shitting on current stuff because of recent history.

What were your thoughts on the anonymous GM? Or Jericho's cryptic return videos/silent/crying promos? Two of the examples that annoy me the most. Clearly in both examples, there was the idea to build a big mystery and when it came to actually building a climactic ending, there was nothing. Starting things like that without actually having an ending in mind is a HORRIBLE habit in any form of entertainment writing.

So when they show signs of it again, it's pretty easy to not wait for some big reveal and figure out when they're just up to their old ways. Benefit of the doubt only goes so far.

And as for changing things up being a necessity, I really don't remember wrestling's past being riddled with situations where cards were changed on a dime like that unless an injury or something forced their hand. I also don't remember nearly as many aimless angles as we've seen over the past few years. It's not a necessity. If you're organized and pay attention to the detail when you're writing and have things neatly mapped out, it's not necessary to change your mind on the fly.

[James Steele]

I'm mainly shitting on current stuff because of recent history.

What were your thoughts on the anonymous GM? Or Jericho's cryptic return videos/silent/crying promos? Two of the examples that annoy me the most. Clearly in both examples, there was the idea to build a big mystery and when it came to actually building a climactic ending, there was nothing. Starting things like that without actually having an ending in mind is a HORRIBLE habit in any form of entertainment writing.

So when they show signs of it again, it's pretty easy to not wait for some big reveal and figure out when they're just up to their old ways. Benefit of the doubt only goes so far.

The GM thing was 2 years after the fact, and I didn't give a fuck. It was fun/funny segment on RAW to poke fun at the fact they never resolved the angle. So yes, the WWE did miss an opportunity on that one (and many others).

Jericho's whole thing for months was that he was trolling the WWE Universe until he ended up getting trolled himself by not ever winning the title and living up to his bold promises. Disappointed there wasn't some huge thing, but realistically what could they have done with Jericho to fit with those videos? Make him come back as a Goth Rock God?

[James Steele]

Not saying WWE is perfect by any means, but I just think you go so far out of your way to nitpick and find things to poke holes in that you keep yourself from enjoying most of the product. In 6 months, if Ryback is Tensai II and Ziggler is fighting for the NXT Championship then I understand your complaints but complaining about the ending before the ending is revealed is not an ideal way to enjoy something.

[#1-norm-fan]

You know Superman is going to win in the end. You know Batman is going to kick ass and save the day. Just because you know the ending doesn't mean the story sucks. We all knew Rock/Foley was just busy work until The Rock faced Austin at WrestleMania but it didn't make the story any less interesting (and they had some clusterfucks in that feud). Once again, "missing the forest for the trees". Since it is predictable, they should just randomly throw Punk in with somebody out of the blue. If anything, there is more of a chance of Ryback winning at TLC than anybody else on the roster. Is it highly unlikely, absolutely, but that doesn't automatically make the story itself bad, boring, or a clusterfuck.

I don't think the Ryback-Punk feud is a clusterfuck. Two different topics.

I do think that Cena would be more likely to win the title than Ryback. Especially if they hyped up the fact that the winner faces Rock at the Rumble. Right now it almost seems like they're purposely avoiding mentioning that the winner faces Rock at the Rumble in hopes that people won't piece together "Oh wait... it's clearly not gonna be Ryback..."

[James Steele]

How so? 1 month ago it seemed almost likely that Ryback would win the title? What has changed other than your apathy?

[#1-norm-fan]

Disappointed there wasn't some huge thing, but realistically what could they have done with Jericho to fit with those videos? Make him come back as a Goth Rock God?

And THIS is exactly what I'm saying. They did make the videos and then force themselves to try to make them make sense after the fact. That's a ridiculous way to write a story. Why would you start something like that without knowing where you're going with it? It seems like you're excusing them making a big story and having it peter out by saying "Well, it was impossible for them to make it make sense in the end."

[#1-norm-fan]

How so? 1 month ago it seemed almost likely that Ryback would win the title? What has changed other than your apathy?

The fact that Ryback was undefeated... and it was in a Hell in a Cell match. Meaning you had the intrigue of "Punk HAS to retain. But wait... Ryback CAN'T lose, can he? And it's not like anyone can just casually come in and interefere really with it being in HIAC."

That was 2 title matches ago. Ryback has lost and doesn't even need to be pinned now again to not win. Punk still has the "Punk HAS to retain" factor but there is no "Ryback CAN'T lose, can he?" factor.

[James Steele]

The fact that Ryback was undefeated... and it was in a Hell in a Cell match. Meaning you had the intrigue of "Punk HAS to retain. But wait... Ryback CAN'T lose, can he? And it's not like anyone can just casually come in and interefere really with it being in HIAC."

That was 2 title matches ago. Ryback has lost and doesn't even need to be pinned now again to not win. Punk still has the "Punk HAS to retain" factor but there is no "Ryback CAN'T lose, can he?" factor.

It is a TLC match. He can't get screwed by a referee, and Punk can't pin anyone else to win.

[#1-norm-fan]

And just to re-iterate I did say I enjoy Ryback even despite the fact that they're kind of in stall mode for a month with him. They were backed into a corner with Cena's injury and they did exactly what they should have done. It's just not something that's gonna intrigue me outside of the hope that we get a Lesnar appearance and eventual feud.

[#1-norm-fan]

It is a TLC match. He can't get screwed by a referee, and Punk can't pin anyone else to win.

All he has to do is climb a ladder though. That's this month's equivalent to "pinning someone else". Basically Ryback won't need to be pinned in order to not win the title again.

[James Steele]

...so it gives them an out without rehashing what they did last month. What is the problem with it other than you think it is predictable?

[James Steele]

I don't see how that is "lazy booking" or "bad writing". It makes sense for the situation. Are they supposed to put themselves in a situation that is harder to explain and get out of despite no gain in draw power or anticipation?

[#1-norm-fan]

That's pretty much it. lol It's just a monotonous step in a 3 month stall 'til the Rumble. I'm not really bashing it as much as you seem to think I am. I'm just looking past it to the Rumble and I was originally remarking how I'm a fan of Ryback's character despite that. It doesn't have the same feeling as Sheamus vs The Big Show which just makes me say "Fuck what happens with these guys after this feud, I wanna see how this turns out."

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't see how that is "lazy booking" or "bad writing". It makes sense for the situation. Are they supposed to put themselves in a situation that is harder to explain and get out of despite no gain in draw power or anticipation?

You're getting two things we're discussing mixed up. I'm not calling the Punk-Ryback feud "lazy booking" or "bad writing". They're backed into a corner. I get it. I'm not gonna say it's the best they can do given the situation but I'm not bashing the booking of it. I just happened to bring that feud up in answering Juan's question. The lazy writing is elsewhere.

[Vastardikai]

Saw the Shield Promo, and I have to say this:

Reigns has a role that is perfect for him. Doesn't have to say much, but when he speaks he gets his point across. Rollins wasn't bad, and had the line about the Shield which led to the name. I get the comparisons between Ambrose and Brian Pillman. This should be the moment everyone gets that Ambrose will be the guy who rises above the rest. The promo led me to believe that the group isn't necessarily working for Punk. It doesn't mean that they're not working for Heyman, though.

[Skippord]

Ambrose is pretty great, haven't seen him talk until now

[Skippord]

I also really like the name The Shield for some reason

[ace3025]

I've enjoyed the Ryback/Punk feud. It was a bit forced,but then felt natural. They found 2 ways to have Punk retain without completely killing off Ryback. If they aren't going to put the belt on him, I think the best way to do it would be for Ryback to say he doesn't want the title. Basically, he is so angry with Punk and he knows that shield is supposedly only protecting Punk's title reign. Why not say "I don't want it to be a title match. I just want to beat the shit out of Punk"? That's what theRyback character does, might as well embrace it

[Jordan]

I am not sure if The Shield is working for the WWE Champion or Paul Heyman, or anyone yet... however I got a pretty awesome vibe from the promo. It seem like hey are a sort of vigilante justice... I hope WWE really runs with this gimmick of them just appearing out of nowhere for a couple of months, leading up to some kind of big time six man tag at The Mania.

[Tommy Gunn]

Cesaro looked amazing against Sheamus, can't wait for him to move further up the card, same with Sandow.

[Vastardikai]

All I ask that they make the Alpamare Water Slide his finish instead of the Neutralizer.

The fact that the first guy he busted it out on was a Hoss makes it all the more impressive.

[Juan]

Based on statistics compiled by Hashtagbattle.com, Daniel Bryan actually won the RAW Active poll to determine who would wrestle CM Punk in the main event of the show. With less than 1,000 votes cast, #WWEBryan had 585 tweets, while #WWEKane had 408 tweets.

[#1-norm-fan]

So the WWE universe DOESN'T have a voice!?!

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Based on statistics compiled by Hashtagbattle.com, Daniel Bryan actually won the RAW Active poll to determine who would wrestle CM Punk in the main event of the show. With less than 1,000 votes cast, #WWEBryan had 585 tweets, while #WWEKane had 408 tweets.

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

[James Steele]

It was a political statement. Kane won the electoral votes.

[owenbrown]

so how long before Ryback's roid-riddled micropenis falls off in the middle of the ring during a match?

[Skippord]

that's not how steroids work