View Full Version : State Your Case: Why do think TNA and WWE are good/bad?
James Steele
01-04-2014, 01:33 PM
We all have are opinions about the product of WWE and TNA. Why do you believe WWE is good or bad? Why do you believe TNA is good or bad? #StateYourCase
NoJabbaNoBogRoll
01-04-2014, 01:58 PM
WWE Good:
History and prestige, allowing them to make moments feel important and significant.
High level production values.
Very deep talent roster.
WWE Bad:
Excessive pandering to demographics that are not me.
Formulaic matches.
Lack of chemistry between commentators.
Ignoring the past, or outright lying about it.
TNA Good:
High percentage of entertaining matches.
More mature tone.
Less scripted nature of promos and commentary.
TNA Bad:
Small arenas, without enough hardcore fans, mean the crowd reactions never create an epic atmosphere (outside of England).
Misuse of certain longtime members of the roster.
Vastardikai
01-04-2014, 06:08 PM
These are the vibes I get from Both Companies:
WWE: A solid company that, if they ever wanted/had to get serious, could be the greatest program with their current level of talent. There are maybe 3 people in TNA that are legit on par with the best of WWE's regulars. Then, they could drop someone far and above anyone at a moments notice. Main problem is, they can't/have no reason to get serious.
TNA: A decent company that, if they wanted to get everything going in the right direction, could actually be a decent contender to WWE. Main problem is, they are more of a tax write-off for Panda Energy and Spike as is, and make horrible mistakes that they cannot really afford to make at this stage of the game.
Mr. Nerfect
01-04-2014, 07:48 PM
I agree with the negatives I have read about TNA. I want them to succeed, but they really need to keep things fucking simple and utilize their talent better. Some of their decisions over the past three years have been really bone-headed and cost them a lot of ground, to the point where I think a new legit promotion could very easily usurp #2 from them with the right resources and minds behind it.
WWE
Good: history, prestige, some of the Ppvs are highlights on the pro wrestling and sporting calendar e.g. wm, rr, sslm etc., iconic stars who have been made at and or wrestled in the promotion, they defined wrestling, their stars transcended the profession and popular culture.
Bad: post the demise of WCW and ECW, they've not had any legitimate competition and hence the brand and quality of the programming has suffered, questionable bookings, recent trend behind the scenes to focus on big muscly guys rather than focussing on who can wrestle or perform the best, way too commercialised with all the stupid sponsorship spots and ridiculous BS campaigns like Be a start etc. also not keen on their very vocal political opinions particularly the whole hoo hah regarding Bin Laden's death. The way they celebrated was as if wwe themselves had apprehended and killed the man. It was a watershed moment I agree but nothing to celebrate, can't help but feel it desecrated the memory of all those killed in 9/11, soldiers killed and innocent civilians killed.
In trying to be PG and make 'funny' story lines they've ended up being controversial e.g. Poking fun at Jerry Lawler's heart attack even with his permission, the Zeb Colter skits though funny come across as xenophobic and racist, JBL's infamous skit on the 'Mexican border'.
Comments being made 'out of character' e.g. HHH slating Jericho, Edge and RVD as never being big stars but one could argue all three of those were much bigger stars at their peak and even still than HHH ever was or ever will be. Entertainment or not WWE needs to exercise a degree of professionalism and respect towards its stars but these people are hardly the sort that fall under the category of civilised, moral individuals.
Lack of a decent divas division in that most matches tend to be 8 person tag teams lasting barely three minutes.
The fact they seem to dance to the tune of their top stars I.e. The likes of undertaker, lesnar etc picking and choosing when they appear rather than making a regular spot. The whole point of wwe programming is for regular consistency. I get he impression these big stars consider themselves to be mercenaries and wwe management are happy to treat them as such.
Certainly the programming has died in quality post 2002 maybe 2005 at the latest.
James Steele
01-04-2014, 09:29 PM
In trying to be PG and make 'funny' story lines they've ended up being controversial e.g. Poking fun at Jerry Lawler's heart attack even with his permission, the Zeb Colter skits though funny come across as xenophobic and racist, JBL's infamous skit on the 'Mexican border'.
JBL's skit was way before the PG push, and Zeb Colter's whole gimmick is that he is a xenophobe/racist.
Comments being made 'out of character' e.g. HHH slating Jericho, Edge and RVD as never being big stars but one could argue all three of those were much bigger stars at their peak and even still than HHH ever was or ever will be. Entertainment or not WWE needs to exercise a degree of professionalism and respect towards its stars but these people are hardly the sort that fall under the category of civilised, moral individuals.
Jericho, Edge, and RVD were never remotely close to the level of star Triple H is/was. Also, it's a fucking work.
TNA
Good: a place to see old stars like Sting and Angle relive their glory days, slightly better treatment of the female wrestlers though the only real decent star they have is Gail Kim, Austin Aries, they seem to have gone one step better than WWE with regards to the foreign markets e.g. Actually going to broadcast live impact and a proper ppv from the uk imminently as opposed to some cheap knockoff uk only ppv. The uk fans are getting the real deal. Wwe though doing smack down and raw in the uk the quality of the shows are horrendous. TNA in that respect try to roll out the big guns by sending all their stars over with the exception of Jeff hardy who due to previous convictions is barred from entering the uk. Their fan interaction events are quite well organised and much cheaper and easier to participate in than wwe's but that's for obvious reasons I.e. Wwe being more popular.
Bad: pretty much everything else, the quality of the shows are crap be it the Ppvs or tv shows, the fact they don't show any of the shows live on uk tv shows they are still behind in some respects, their roster except for one or two wrestlers is terrible and the only reason they are still in existence is because of the likes of AA, Sting, Angle and the fact they managed to keep Hogan and AJ Styles for as long as they did. The current TNA reminds me of the WCW Russo years which was ultimately worse than cancer though still a step up from Russo WCW. Dixie Carter is like a headless chicken, she knows nothing about the wrestling business or even then, how to run a business effectively and losing Hogan, Jarret and AJ Styles from the company was a huge blow, even RVD. The fact the likes of RVD, Foley and even old man Ric Flair would go back to WWE just shows how bad TNA is. There is no atmosphere at the shows other than the uk events. Perhaps this is due to the fact they spent far too long in Universal and were therefore attracting casual fans rather than genuine fans. If TNA wanted to make a decent profit rather than going on the road in the US or saying at universal, maybe just jump ship and decamp in the UK for a while? No doubt they would sell out arenas across the country despite it's small size but rather have small sold out arenas full of die hard passionate fans than the crapheads you see week in week out on Impact.
As I said before the quality of the show, the story lines, the rosters, the commentary, I mean Mike Tenay how is he still working I this business? He was worse than Schavione but at least he worked in the WWE albeit for five minutes. Honestly if it wasn't for TNA or maybe ROH being in existence, would this man even have a job?
All in all TNA is just crap but more so because of how Carter is running it into the ground. I'd hate to see it get sold to the WWE because then WWE will get even worse by buying out the competition. They need to be run by people who know and love wrestling. Sure it will never top the WWE but nothing wrong being a solid alternative but at the moment it isn't even that. It feels cheap like being served fake lobster meat on plastic plates with plastic cutlery.
Tbh wrestling has never been the same since WCW went out of business. The last decent match in either company in my opinion was Rock v Hogan at wrestlemania 18. By decent I mean a truly memorable iconic match that nobody who attended or watched the vent would ever forget and the fact I'm talking about it some 12 years later and that rock and hogan would mention the tenth anniversary of the match on their twitter accounts goes to show how great it was. There have been some good matches since then but nothing quite on that level.
James Steele
01-04-2014, 09:47 PM
HBK/Taker?
You seem mad that the Attitude Era/Monday Night Wars ever ended and refuse to give wrestling a honest opportunity to entertain you.
JBL's skit was way before the PG push, and Zeb Colter's whole gimmick is that he is a xenophobe/racist.
Jericho, Edge, and RVD were never remotely close to the level of star Triple H is/was. Also, it's a fucking work.
Really? Jericho was first undisputed champion, big star in both the WCW and WWE wrestled the best of his generation, was pretty damn popular and better technically in the ring and on the mic than HHH.
Edge worked his way up the company and held pretty much every title in the company and was accomplished as both a tag and singles competition and prettying damn popular before his career being cut short through injury. Again a better technical wrestler than HHH.
RVD again another better technical wrestler and was top of the tree at both ECW and WwE, poor mic skills.
What has HHH really done of any note? Being part of DX only worked because HBK just like NWO only worked because of Hogan. Nobody would have batted an eyelid had HBK never agreed to the storyline. It's the people he wrestled that made HHH a big star e.g. Rock, Foley, Undertaker, Ultimate Warrior, HBK, Ric Flair, Goldberg, Hogan, Cena.........
Also as for the rant being a work that's not what Jericho and Edge or RVD thought when questioned on twitter. Jericho was legitimately pissed off as was RVD.
HHH was only ever a big star for being in the right place at the right time and the fact he screws McMahon's daughter only consolidates that point further. Yes HHH is/was a good wrestler but let's not get carried away he was never outstanding or legendary. Where's the skill in hitting someone with a fucking sledgehammer and then kneeing them in the face? He had the look of a decent wrestler but it's not like wrestling would have not survived without him or not been a better business. He's more in the class of someone like say Lex Luger, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Paul Wight, Vader, Yokozuna, Sgt Slaughter I.e. People where decent enough but never actually outstanding and made as much impact on wrestling as a fart in the Grand Canyon.
I can name loads of people who were much bigger stars than HHH could ever claim to be:
Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin, Ric Flair, Macho Man, John Cena, CM Punk, Sting, HBK, Goldberg, Undertaker, Mick Foley, Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guererro, Kurt Angle, RVD, Edge, Chris Jericho, Batista, Iron Sheikh, Bob Backlund, Bret Hart, heck I would even rank Ron Simmons, Booker T, British Bulldog and even Chris Benoit above Triple Hl of whom were better wrestlers, in ring performers and had more memorable matches than HHH.
HHH is only where he is because he got lucky and was friends and fuck buddies with the right people. If anything I have far less respect for him now due to his questionable booking strategies behind the scenes and if rumours are to be believed on this website his backstage persona is no different to his character onscreen.
A work or not he is deluded if he thinks he is in any position to criticise any star past or present for not being the top dog when in all honesty he was never THE MAN either.
End of rant.
ron the dial
01-04-2014, 09:59 PM
BOBO PUTTING IT ALL OUT THERE, PUTTING IT ALL ON THE LINE!!
HOW WILL JAMES STEELE RESPOND?!
TUNE IN NEXT POST
HBK/Taker?
You seem mad that the Attitude Era/Monday Night Wars ever ended and refuse to give wrestling a honest opportunity to entertain you.
HBK/Taker....maybe but again both were already past their heyday....well HBK had slowed down a lot.
I wouldn't say I'm mad the wars ended but there has been a noticeable dip in the quality of WWE's programming and let's be honest that isn't a surprise, what benchmark do they have to compare themselves with? At least when WCW was thriving they were kept on their toes and determined to produce something damn good. It's not like WWE is going to lose out to TNA or ROH any time soon?
They can carry producing any old crap like getting the muppets to appear on Raw and still sell tickets......what alternatives are there.
And if the attitude era etc was all a thing of the best then why would the WWE be making such a big deal out of old school Raw? If the here and now was so good then let's just focus on this. Out with the old in with the new.
The fact they have to bring back stars who had moved on from wrestling like Batista, Brock Lesnar and even Rocky himself just goes to show the WWE are fresh out of creativity.
Also I don't see the harm in showing a bit of hardcore violence and a little blood here and there and still maintain the PG rating. After all it's still sports entertainment and in most countries is shown on sports channels. Boxing is watched by both young and old and is arguably more violent and blood prone, heck even Rugby is violent.
I don't see how they disapprove of that because it isn't PG but then portray racist and xenophobic characters like Zeb Colter or the references Jericho made to alcohol and drug abuse in his Cm punk feud which you could argue one would not expect in a 'family friendly' show.
ron the dial
01-04-2014, 10:12 PM
OK MAYBE NEXT POST
Mr. Nerfect
01-04-2014, 10:24 PM
There is no way Chris Jericho, Edge or Rob Van Dam were as big a star as Triple H. They were each very, very over and had amazing careers, but Triple H was arguably the #2 guy in the company at one point while Austin was injured. He and Rock were a huge part of carrying the WWE through during its most profitable period. Guys like Edge and Chris Jericho were extremely over in the mid-card and gaining momentum, but it was Triple H's show.
There is no way Chris Jericho, Edge or Rob Van Dam were as big a star as Triple H. They were each very, very over and had amazing careers, but Triple H was arguably the #2 guy in the company at one point while Austin was injured. He and Rock were a huge part of carrying the WWE through during its most profitable period. Guys like Edge and Chris Jericho were extremely over in the mid-card and gaining momentum, but it was Triple H's show.
I have to respectfully disagree. HHH may have had the main event status but it sure as hell not on merit I.e. Based on his skill, technique, charisma etc.
He had the look of a decent star in the vein of Hogan or Rock but he didn't have their star power. Now I'm not saying edge and Jericho were in the same category as Hogan but they were not too far off the mark and in any case had a better skill set than Hunter could have ever acquired.
Like I said where was the skill in hitting people in the head with a sledgehammer or a knee to the face? DX only worked because of HBK and HHH only got places in the company through marriage and before that the Kliq.
It's not like millions of kids worldwide were tuning in to watch Triple H and pester their parents for his merchandise like they did with Hogan, Austin, Rock and now Cena.
I never said HHH wasn't a big star he was, but I don't consider him ever being the face if the WWE I.e. The one person who transcended the company whom everyone knew. People today who know nothing about wrestling can at least name Hogan and Rock and then at a stretch Ric Flair, Steve Austin and John Cena. Triple H was never in that category and neither were Edge or Jericho or RVD. Hence why I thought it was rich of HHH to criticise them for not being the face of the WWE in the manner of say Hogan or Rock when HHH never really enjoyed that sort of fame either.
Mr. Nerfect
01-04-2014, 11:01 PM
Keep in mind that we're not talking about skill level here. We're talking about star power. Being in the main event and having that star power, regardless of the reasons for that, is certainly pertinent to the conversation. Triple H is closer to being in that talked about group than Edge, Jericho or RVD ever were. If you know wrestling, then you'd no doubt have a lot of respect for all of those men, but you're unlikely to have heard of them otherwise. Triple H has popped up within the mainstream culture occasionally.
My argument against HHH perhaps came out wrong. The point I was making was that in spite of his comments about those three, they were all better in ring performers than HHH and whether it was staged or not.....tpww seemed to suggest it wasn't staged re their reports about Jericho and RVD being legitimately pissed off, even if those guys were never the big face of the company, neither was HHH.
HHH and his band of hardcore fanatics may think he was some sort of icon who transcended the pro wrestling business but as I said before, they're all deluded if they think he has/had anywhere near the sort of fame or respect that Hogan, Rock, Flair or Austin and Cena enjoyed and still continue to do so. Heck I would even include Bret Hart on that list.
HHH was nothing more than B grade superstar at best.
Some might say oh but Motörhead did a theme song for him but let's be honest Motörhead aren't exactly great are they? I mean even in their homeland their famous for little other than Ace of Spades which they might use in the odd motorcar or racing advert ever now and again.
Yes I am not a triple h fan as you can tell but my dislike for him has intensified over the last 12 months or so and especially given the fact he never replies to my tweets.
Oh and one more criticism to add about WWE I thought their brief three second tribute to Nelson Mandela was pathetic and disgusting. They go on so much about their bullshit be a star campaign and here is the greatest example of an individual who fought against bullying and discrimination and they gave him a lousy three second graphic three quarters of the way through the show? When bin laden died they paraded around like they had killed him themselves and even did some crappy and cheesy intro akin to the liberation of the free world.
Now I'm not saying they had any obligation to pay tribute to Nelson Mandela, they didn't, it's a wrestling show. But if they were going to do so they should have at least done it properly and given the man the proper respect he deserved which would have constituted more than a three second graphic. A few seconds longer at the start oft he show with a Voiceover commentary by McMahon perhaps linking it in with Be A Star would have been appropriate.
But aside from that the NFL, NBA and Premier League, FIFA, IOC all paid tribute on their websites and social media outlets and given WWE's global reach especially in South Africa, I'm surprised they did so little.
Heck even TNA carried a tribute on their facebook and Twitter accounts.
ron the dial
01-04-2014, 11:03 PM
it's a fucking work.
Keep in mind that we're not talking about skill level here. We're talking about star power. Being in the main event and having that star power, regardless of the reasons for that, is certainly pertinent to the conversation. Triple H is closer to being in that talked about group than Edge, Jericho or RVD ever were. If you know wrestling, then you'd no doubt have a lot of respect for all of those men, but you're unlikely to have heard of them otherwise. Triple H has popped up within the mainstream culture occasionally.
Of course but can any of us truly say that HHH was ever that big star he claims to be on and off screen like say Hogan was?
But again I argue that HHH only got where he was because of who he knew rather than that he was an exceptionally talented in ring performer and had the star power to make an impact on the profession and beyond. If he wasn't married to Stephanie McMahon then right now Triple H would either be a mid carder, at TNA or retired running a gym back in British Columbia or wherever he is from in Canada.
Everything the likes of Hogan, Austin, Flair and Cena earned was on merit, even the Rock though he is third generation but his father and grandfather were hardly of any distinction and being non white, Samoan/African American, arguably Rock had more barriers to overcome.
HHH because of his association with HBK, the Kliq and then working his way into the McMahon family, that is the only reason he enjoyed the superstar status he parades around like a baboon's bottom. God forbid his marriage ever breaks down with Stephanie I'd love to see the consequences.
Also you mention HHH popping up in mainstream culture....where?
Not according to various sites including this one and the wrestlers' twitter accounts themselves. Is that not the reason why both Jericho and RVD have been reluctant to return?
http://www.tpww.net/2013/10/chris-jericho-reacts-to-triple-hs-raw-promo/
Then we have this;
http://www.tpww.net/2013/10/update-major-unhappiness-over-triple-hs-raw-promo/
So it seems that even tpww speculate whether or not it was genuine or not and in any case it ruffled feathers.
That fact is I maintain those three were better wrestlers and more talented than triple h could ever have aspired to be but triple h was no bigger a star than them.
ron the dial
01-04-2014, 11:18 PM
since we're sharing links
http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?t=125579
since we're sharing links
http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?t=125579
Fair point but I was mainly responding to the other user's questioning my disdain for HHH and indeed my disdain for HHH and his involvement in the behind the scenes day to day running of the WWE is my main reason for hating the WWE I that respect so in a sense it ties in.....
But taking the thread back on track, another bad point about the wwe is the distinct lack of genuine top superstar I mean let's analyse;
John Cena- the only true top superstar. The big guy, who is loved and loathed in equal measure but more loved than loathed. One of the few to truly transcend wrestling and IMO ranks amongst the all time greats perhaps even the top 5.
CM Punk- almost on the level of Cena but not quite the big transcending superstar. Great charisma and in ring skills. All round talented guy and one of the best technical wrestlers of all time alongside Bret Hart and Chris Benoit and perhaps Kurt Angle too.
Randy Orton- much like HHH only got to where he is because of who knew and who he is. Otherwise where else except in the WWE or pro wrestling could a crack cocaine addict and AWOL marine get to the top of his profession? How many wellness policy violations has he had?
Rey Mysterio's career fizzled out long time ago mainly due to his injuries and the fact that his performances have become tedious. Del Rio plays a great heel and makes you laugh but other than that. Sheamus isn't bad when he isn't injured. Wade Barrett had potential but now they've just ruined the character though I did chuckle when that podium popped up lol I'm dirty minded.
Otherwise Big Show has been irrelevant for ten years now. Khali is only around in order to increase ethnic diversity. Jack swagger and dolphin Ziggler were pushed way too early and too fast. Kofi Kingston and R truth will never be main event players.
Ryback, Brodus Clay, Tensai.......what a load of bollocks.
Big E Langston isn't too bad. Mark Henry is just fat.
Fandango is like Disco Inferno's long lost brother and he gets more ridiculous as the weeks go by.
Bray Wyatt has huge potential IMO but the pg rating prevents his creepy and sadistic, psychotic character being used to the maximum effect.
Oh yeah Brock Lesnar whenever he is around. Shame to see Kane reduced to nothing more than an on screen lackey.
The Shield remind me of Aces and Eights and that was a load of crap too.
The bull fighter guys primo and epico, crap. Usos, crap.
Divas division doesn't get the push or respect it deserves. Tamina Snuka and Kaitlyn and Aj Lee the only shining lights to be fair. Maybe Natalya. Sorely miss Beth Phoenix and Eve and Kelly Kelly. Heck even Lisa Marie Varon and Gail Kim but we'll never see them in the WWE again. Lita too.
Sexton-Hardcastle
01-05-2014, 10:15 AM
WWE is always going to be THE promotion...Nobody will ever challenge them in the way that WCW did...The whole franchise is a money printing machine except those stupid, irrelevant WWE Films they make..
That is what is wrong with the WWE...They dont have anything/one to push them further towards the boundaries. And they likely never will again.
The PG TV thing holds them back aswell... Sure the product is more marketable to a PG audience and the PG audience will buy more merchandise. So from a business perpective I understand that its the way forward...
However, I think WWE would benefit greatly from having a corresponding TV output for the older generations of fans... I would be all for them having a bi-weekly show that was more hard hitting. Allowed some closer to the cloth dialogue and some more 'Attitude Era' style matches..
Even Go as far as calling it 'WWE Thursday Night Attitude' and up the rating..
At the moment they have a wealth of decent characters and performers that would shine better in that environment.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 10:28 AM
Everything the likes of Hogan earned was on merit,
Not by politicking at all?
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 10:32 AM
Randy Orton- much like HHH only got to where he is because of who knew and who he is.
Really don't think being the son of Cowboy Bob has all that much sway or we'd have be watching David Flair against Sammartino's kid in the main event of 'Mania.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 10:34 AM
I'm just going to ignore the line about RVD being a technical wrestler though.
Really don't think being the son of Cowboy Bob has all that much sway or we'd have be watching David Flair against Sammartino's kid in the main event of 'Mania.
I'm sure it counted for something. Orton did have his own skill set but he hardly set the world on fire and unless there's some bout of Orton mania set to come, he will hardly be remembered as one of the greats.
David Flair was given major pushes in both WCW and WWE programming but it turned out the guy had absolutely no shred of talent.
I know nothing about Sammartino's kid so can't comment.
But I doubt Cody Rhodes, Goldust, Curtis Axel, Natalya and Tamina Snuka would have amounted to much had it not been for the families they were born into. It's a bit like legacy admissions at Harvard or the old boys network at Cambridge.
Even Dwayne milked his wrestling heritage to the max as reflected in his stage name.
There's no truly decent talent left in the WWE anymore.
I'm just going to ignore the line about RVD being a technical wrestler though.
Yeah he had no athletic ability whatsoever. Just a muscle bound meathead like Levesque.
Sexton-Hardcastle
01-05-2014, 12:11 PM
There's no truly decent talent left in the WWE anymore.
Are you Autistic or something?
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 12:35 PM
Yeah he had no athletic ability whatsoever. Just a muscle bound meathead like Levesque.
No, you said technical wrestler, if you're counting athletic ability as a criteria to fit that then Sabu is an extreme Bret Hart.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 12:40 PM
I'm sure it counted for something.
No, again you're ignoring what you said, which is a stupidly grand sweeping statement, and arguing from a different stance, you said he wouldn't get anywhere not that it counted for something. Being a second generation star only gives you a chance to stand out by opening the doors sooner, it doesn't guarantee success, or Erik Watts would be running the industry.
Innovator
01-05-2014, 12:52 PM
WWE
Good:
The talent they've brought up lately have all been tremendous with the Shield and Wyatts being prime examples. Now you are almost guaranteed a great match involving them on every show.
While the booking and finishes are sometimes left to be desired, the in ring work has been fantastic lately. Also, I'd call you crazy if you told me in 2004 that CM Punk and Bryan Danielson would dominate airtime on RAW.
Bad:
Too many angles get dropped for no reason, taking the audience for granted. A lot of the same guys have been in the main event for too long, making it stale. If Cena did what Orton did and go back down to the midcard to work an angle with someone, people wouldn't be as hard on his character.
Also, Triple H and Stephanie have spent the last 5 months getting heat on themselves instead of putting it on Orton, who turned into a cross between Johnny Lawrence and an overgrown overexplaining man-child. Also, stop heating up Big Show at the expense of other talent, he isn't going to happen.
TNA
Good:
I like the behind the scenes cost cutting they've done. The ratings will always be in that .9-1.1 range, so why not build new stars instead of trotting out the same guys over and over while paying them high amounts for low dates. This way they can stop the bleeding and try to make the company presentable for investors if the Carters want to sell off a part of TNA.
Bad:
Too many angles and matches are supposed to have HUGE IMPLICATIONS but don't mean anything two weeks later. Way too much Dixie Carter on TV, she isn't good and someone that bad shouldn't take up that much time.
Stop trying to be sports entertainment. Be pro wrestling and be a true alternative to WWE, rather than "WWE Lite - Less Filling". They do a few solid shows then do something stupid.
Also, stop copying look for look other TV shows. They make it way too obvious that the writers just started watching a hit show, whether it's Sons of Anarchy or Dexter. I can't wait for Joseph Park to get cancer and start cooking meth with Eric Young.
Are you Autistic or something?
Beats being an inbred like you.
ron the dial
01-05-2014, 01:48 PM
"you're autistic!"
"you're inbred!"
read what you tiny little children are saying to each other and feel shame
No, again you're ignoring what you said, which is a stupidly grand sweeping statement, and arguing from a different stance, you said he wouldn't get anywhere not that it counted for something. Being a second generation star only gives you a chance to stand out by opening the doors sooner, it doesn't guarantee success, or Erik Watts would be running the industry.
How on Earth was it a sweeping statement? My point was by virtue of their family connections, Dwayne Johnson, Cody Rhodes and randy Orton all got easier opportunities than the average wrestler who had to slog it out from the bottom up. Obviously the rock was a very talented wrestler and charismatic individual and clearly has talents beyond the ring, he may well have made it had he not come from such a wrestling pedigree. I guess the same could be said for Bret Hart.
But you can't deny the fact Triple H isn't enjoying the fruits of his marriage into the McMahon family. His best days in the ring have been behind him for some time and if it wasn't for his association with the Kliq, HBK and now the McMahon family as I said before he'd be back in Canada running a stable or doing comic convention appearances.
RVD was certainly the much better in ring performer combining his wrestling skills with martial arts and the stunts he did.
As I said before since the demise of WCW, the quality of WWE programming has diminished. I mean seriously having the muppets, three stooges and Seth green on Raw? Just as bad as when they had Robocop and Chucky on WCW.
The management are two faced hypocritical cunts too. I love how they unceremoniously sacked JR and then had the nerve to 'pay tribute' to him on twitter and on wwe.com.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 02:02 PM
Hunter was an established main eventer before his marriage, he was well on his way to becoming one before he was ever involved with Stephanie. The Kliq at one time included Justin Credible so that isn't a free ride to the top either. RVD, as entertaining as he was in his prime, was sloppy as fuck in the ring, and a spinning kick doesn't equate to martial arts, Triple H used one of those once too. And if you read the quotes of your posts I used, it's not difficult from the language used to see where the "sweeping statement" line has merit.
And Innovator wins this thread.
Sexton-Hardcastle
01-05-2014, 02:04 PM
"you're autistic!"
"you're inbred!"
read what you tiny little children are saying to each other and feel shame
I didnt say he was autistic..I enquired.
Based on the fact that autistic people generally don't understand social situations and struggle to recognize facial expressions and don't always possess the ability to see things as they are..
I didnt say he was autistic..I enquired.
Based on the fact that autistic people generally don't understand social situations and struggle to recognize facial expressions and don't always possess the ability to see things as they are..
Not sure how you linked that in with my comments. Criticising wwe management's questionable booking policies, the merits of HHH's career and pointing out the lack of true superstar quality talent hardly makes on autistic.
Who exactly are the truly big stars left in the WWE apart from Cena? Punk doesn't come quite as close. Lesnar was never around long enough the first time around to really make an impact. Rey Mysterio had has moment in the spotlight but injuries plagued him. Randy Orton is in theory one wellness policy violation away from being fired.
We need more time to see the Wyatts and Shield individually I reckon. Barett, Ziggler, Swagger and Del Rio peaked and are now back to mid carders. Doubt we'll ever see the likes of Kofi or R Truth competing for the main events, McMahon would squirm at the though of a black guy holding the wwe title the closet racist that he is.
Sexton-Hardcastle
01-05-2014, 02:20 PM
You said.. ''theres no truely decent talent''
You've now changed that to 'True Superstar Quality talent'
Theres a world of difference in those two statements...
You said.. ''theres no truely decent talent''
You've now changed that to 'True Superstar Quality talent'
Theres a world of difference in those two statements...
They're interchangeable terms. By decent talent I mean great in ring performers and those who the fans truly want to sing and shout about week in week out.
But then when we talk about truly superstar quality then who is there really apart from John Cena? He's the only one on the roster who is of any note in the mainstream and the true face of the company. Cm Punk comes a very close second.
Lesnar was never around long enough the first time and neither the second time to truly endear himself to the fans. It remains to be seen what Batista will do upon his return. Undertaker should retire rather than strain himself for the one match a year.
Daniel Bryan has the skills and generates a certain buzz from the crowd but is he really someone who has or will take the company to greater heights? Same with Randy Orton. Both great wrestlers but not quite the brand names.
Going back the Triple H comments for those who claim he was the real deal ok imagine if there hadn't been an Austin, Rock, undertaker or HBK and Triple H was then by default the biggest star, do you still think WWE would have been a s popular as it was?
Vastardikai
01-05-2014, 03:01 PM
*grabs some popcorn for the tard-fight*
A counter point to the whole second and third generation thing: 80% of the time, the cream rises to the top. The better ones you don't even have to mention that their father was a star, except in passing. Folks like Randy Savage, Ted DiBiase Sr., Finlay, Jake "The Snake" Roberts, Barry Windham, Mr. Perfect. The Rock took a while to get there, but eventually did, and was one of the biggest of all time.
On the other hand, you had folks like David Flair, David Sammartino, Erik Watts, Kendall Windham, Greg Gagne, Brian Christopher, and to an extent Jeff Jarrett who were missing that one vital thing to push them to the next level, despite their parentage, and despite the numbers of chances given. In fact, there's stories that the only reason Greg Gagne wasn't given the AWA World Title, despite missing that one vital thing, was that the board threatened to walk out on Verne if he did.
Dustin Rhodes was actually fairly over in his own right in WCW. He was on the cusp, but wouldn't have hit that next level under his dad. So he became Goldust. Cody, on the other hand, is developing well, and stepping into his own as a worker. He may be bigger than his brother, or he may not. But he has the potential.
Randy, is going to be a fun one for me to discuss. This board knows damn well what I think of him. As for the person dismissing the role of Bob Orton Jr., I'll say this. The guy's dad played a role in the main event of Wrestlemania. The first one. The one that started the whole thing. If you don't think Vince would strap a rocket to him on that reason alone, you're a fool. He went on to do decent in an era where there wasn't really a need for him to be anything other than decent. If he came in during the territory era, or even 20 years ago, I don't think he'd have made it as far as he has. He'd have either gotten over himself quickly or been run out on the business.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 03:12 PM
My argument against Bob Orton is more his legacy in comparison to a Dibiase, Henning, Flair, if it was all down to the name you carried there are sons of bigger stars who would have gotten over bigger than Randy.
The fact is Randy Orton like Triple H are both overrated and hardly remarkable individuals and wwe still would have been big without them both.
James Steele
01-05-2014, 03:45 PM
Hardly. Triple H helped keep the WWE afloat as its #1 heel when Austin and Taker got hurt, and again when several stars up and left WWE in the early 2000s. Would you argue that WWF didn't need Piper in the 80s? They might have been as big or as successful, but you cannot deny the importance of a talented and over heel in the main event.
Triple H was a great heel nothing more or less but he was never the man fans paid to see. Tbh we are going to have to agree to disagree. I stand by my assertion that in the words of his gimmick, triple h was at best a b grade superstar and never the face of the wwe. He may well end up in HOF but it won't be because he had a seismic impact on wrestling.
He's overrated in the vein of Nash and Hall who along with Bischoff think the world began and ended with the NWO when in fact the storyline got stale all too quickly and only ever had any credibility due to the presence of Hogan in the faction and his subsequent rivalries with Sting and dropping the belt to Goldberg. Nash ok I give him some credit at least he was a world champion in both but Hall? He's a world class drunk at best.
Then again you can't say most in the HOF were revolutionaries or there on merit otherwise why Koko B Ware, Drew Carey or Jerry Lawler even?
James Steele
01-05-2014, 04:03 PM
We need to agree that you have no idea what you are talking about and have no fucking clue about wrestling. "A great heel. Nothing more. Nothing less." I'm glad that being a great top heel is such an easy thing to do.
This is coming from the person who insert politically correct insult here, obsessed with Triple H like a fly is infatuated with a dung heap?
Apologies if that offends flies or excrement.
Compare Triple H with all the greats past and present and tell me if he really is up there with the likes of Hogan, Flair, Sting, Warrior, Macho Man, undertaker, Bret Hart, Mick Foley, iron sheikh, bob backlund, Rock, Austin, HBK, heck I would rate Cena, Goldberg and Eddie Gurerro above him. Clearly it pisses off one or two mother fuckers on here but I guess this what happens when you debate with inbred rednecks living in a trailer somewhere in Arkansas.
ron the dial
01-05-2014, 04:27 PM
goldberg above hhh? now THAT is rich.
James Steele
01-05-2014, 04:27 PM
Bobo, why do you have this notion that anybody in wrestling who doesn't attain the level of success of a Flair, Hogan, Austin, Rock, or Cena is either a failure or not due a certain level of respect and admiration for their contributions to professional wrestling?
Bobo, why do you have this notion that anybody in wrestling who doesn't attain the level of success of a Flair, Hogan, Austin, Rock, or Cena is either a failure or not due a certain level of respect and admiration for their contributions to professional wrestling?
I never said they were a failure. My point was that you can't claim that people like HHH are amongst the greats when firstly the were never truly the key superstars in their respective companies. And then if we want to talk about truly great I.e. Changed the face of pro wrestling and attained success beyond the ring then no HHH never achieved that.
My point about Goldberg, he was a world champion in the two biggest wrestling promotions of all time. In the WCW days alongside Hogan and the NWO and Sting, his streak and white hot popularity were key to WCW trouncing WWE in the ratings. The fact that fans still chant his name on Raw some 9 years after he left is an indicator of just how popular and well regarded he was and still is.
How many wrestlers can simply walk into the WWE and in their debut ppv do one on the Rock and then capture the world title in less than a year? Not many stars had that aura Goldberg did and it shows how highly regarded he was by WWE management that they would even contemplate allowing him to pick up a win over arguably the greatest superstar in pro wrestling in his debut ppv match.
Goldberg was a big star in both WCW and WWE that's why I rate him highly.
James Steele
01-05-2014, 04:42 PM
Mr. Perfect was never more than a glorified midcarder (AWA was already dead when he won the belt). Is he not one of the "greats"?
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 04:43 PM
goldberg above hhh? now THAT is rich.
And Warrior, the epitome of technical excellence.
But no they are not failures as not everyone is going to be Hogan or Flair just like every Footballer isn't going to be Pele or Zidane, or every boxer an Ali or Robinson.
It just irks me that people claim HHH to be this blindingly shining bright superstar who somehow revolutionised pro wrestling and made the business what is to do when he was nowhere near that level.
Yes he was a great and may well rank in the top 20 and certainly the top 30 of all time but the notion that he was and is one of the all time greats is just ridiculous.
Ask yourselves if you think DX would have worked without HBK from the beginning or the NWO without Hogan. The likes of Levesque, Hall and Nash simply fed off their reputations rather than garnering any credit or kudos for themselves.
James Steele
01-05-2014, 04:45 PM
Wow, your willful ignorance is truly astonishing.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 04:45 PM
And kindly explain the Elton John child abuse comment Bobo.
Mr. Perfect was never more than a glorified midcarder (AWA was already dead when he won the belt). Is he not one of the "greats"?
Never was the top dog in WWE or WCW so not an all time great but respected nevertheless.
His untimely death no doubt gave him more credit than he deserved as was the case with Owen Hart who let's be honest was shit.
And Warrior, the epitome of technical excellence.
I never said that about Warrior but yes he had athletic and technical ability up to about 1992 at least but his popularity was sky high on the level of hogan at his peak, triple h never enjoyed that kind of popularity or merchandise sales.
And kindly explain the Elton John child abuse comment Bobo.
What's there to explain?
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 04:48 PM
What's there to explain?
All of it really.
Wow, your willful ignorance is truly astonishing.
Because I don't rate Triple H as one of the all time greats doesn't make me ignorant or any more or less of a wrestling fan.
I never said the man was crap and worthless. Yes he had some skill and some ability and some charisma but he isn't on the level you appear to be elevating him to and I suspect many pro wrestling critics and experts would concur.
Nobody can deny Triple H hasn't benefited both on and off screen by marrying into the McMahon family and to deny that would in fact be truly ignorant.
All of it really.
Nothing to explain really does what it says on the tin. A pun, ok a crude one at that, but that's all it is.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 04:54 PM
So homophobia then?
So homophobia then?
Not really but you can't exactly accuse me of homophobia given the amount of casual racism posted on these forums by 'respected users' be it against black people or the anti Muslim comments re Inoki's conversion to Islam.
My comments weren't homophobic at all and like I said if I'm going to be accused of any sort of bigotry it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 05:00 PM
So why is he molesting a child? And because others post stuff like that isn't really an excuse unless you're a child, and even then a pitiful one.
So why is he molesting a child? And because others post stuff like that isn't really an excuse unless you're a child, and even then a pitiful one.
No but you can't berate me for making a lewd comment about Elton John when other users on here continually post racist remarks and do nothing about that unless of course you have some sort of hidden personalised agenda.
ron the dial
01-05-2014, 05:03 PM
as was the case with Owen Hart who let's be honest was shit.
lol wow you are dumb as fuck
ron the dial
01-05-2014, 05:05 PM
No but you can't berate me for making a lewd comment about Elton John when other users on here continually post racist remarks and do nothing about that unless of course you have some sort of hidden personalised agenda.
you can, in fact, do this exact thing if you're not one of the vocal few that post this way, you big fucking dummy.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 05:06 PM
No but you can't berate me for making a lewd comment about Elton John when other users on here continually post racist remarks and do nothing about that unless of course you have some sort of hidden personalised agenda.
So you know you're in the wrong but are pointing the finger at everyone else? Congrats!
Didn't we already do one of these threads about HHH?
ron the dial
01-05-2014, 05:12 PM
since we're sharing links
http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?t=125579
lol wow you are dumb as fuck
Oh I'm sorry he was actually a really good wrestler so popular that his matches were legendary I mean the fact he fell to his death on live tv did nothing to mark him out as an undeserving legend? Seriously you must be the dumb fuck.
you can, in fact, do this exact thing if you're not one of the vocal few that post this way, you big fucking dummy.
My comments were not even homophobic dickwad. Elton John is a gay, calling a spade a spade is hardly offensive.
So why is he molesting a child? And because others post stuff like that isn't really an excuse unless you're a child, and even then a pitiful one.
What so I'm guessing you must be an Elton John fan then?
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 05:15 PM
My comments were not even homophobic dickwad. Elton John is a gay, calling a spade a spade is hardly offensive.
And in your world all gays like 12yo boys?
James Steele
01-05-2014, 05:16 PM
I feel like my "State Your Case" series of threads is a smash hit so far.
JBL's skit was way before the PG push, and Zeb Colter's whole gimmick is that he is a xenophobe/racist.
Jericho, Edge, and RVD were never remotely close to the level of star Triple H is/was. Also, it's a fucking work.
Tbh it all started from here I.e. Veering off into the triple h debate.
And in your world all gays like 12yo boys?
Some might do in which case they would be Paedophiles and ought to be in jail.
I feel like my "State Your Case" series of threads is a smash hit so far.
To be honest I did state my case as per the thread title but you marked out my comments on triple h for debate hence why we went off track.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 05:20 PM
Some might do in which case they would be Paedophiles and ought to be in jail.
Right but you still haven't explained why you thought him abusing a child was what, funny? Appropriate? Maybe if you could break it down so we could all understand why you felt the need for this then the rest of your posts would make some semblance of sense?
Right but you still haven't explained why you thought him abusing a child was what, funny? Appropriate? Maybe if you could break it down so we could all understand why you felt the need for this then the rest of your posts would make some semblance of sense?
This ain't no moral circle it's a wrestling forum.
James Steele
01-05-2014, 05:23 PM
To be honest I did state my case as per the thread title but you marked out my comments on triple h for debate hence why we went off track.
It is my fucking thread. We didn't veer off topic. You think Triple H is why WWE is bad, and I chose to smite thee for your fucking stupidity.
It is my fucking thread. We didn't veer off topic. You think Triple H is why WWE is bad, and I chose to smite thee for your fucking stupidity.
Then it's impossible to debate with you rationally as your bias is towards one wrestler whom you worship as the next best thing since sliced bread.
James Steele
01-05-2014, 05:39 PM
Your opinion is fucking stupid. I have never claimed Triple H is the greatest of all time, but to ignore his contributions and status in wrestling is just willful ignorance because you haven't gotten past the year 2003.
Your opinion is fucking stupid. I have never claimed Triple H is the greatest of all time, but to ignore his contributions and status in wrestling is just willful ignorance because you haven't gotten past the year 2003.
And the fact you think boning the bosses daughter and reaping the rewards of being a part of the family somehow equates to achievement is even more so. Gosh I knew rednecks were retarded but not this much.
ron the dial
01-05-2014, 05:44 PM
you're ignoring the fact that while triple h has benefited from his marriage to some degree, it took a lot of his own hard work and natural talent to get where he is. you're only looking at one part of the equation, which is why you whining about there being no rational debate here is laughable.
#1-norm-fan
01-05-2014, 05:45 PM
Then again you can't say most in the HOF were revolutionaries or there on merit otherwise why Koko B Ware, Drew Carey or Jerry Lawler even?
What was THIS all about?
Do you doubt that Jerry Lawler is HOF-worthy???
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 05:47 PM
He was being pushed long before Stephanie was in the equation, and after HBK was out 'retired', so if this is going to be all you have outside asinine paedo comments I think you should take a break.
He was being pushed long before Stephanie was in the equation, and after HBK was out 'retired', so if this is going to be all you have outside asinine paedo comments I think you should take a break.
Oh right and not being a part of the Kliq had absolutely nothing at all to do with his push to the top?
The fact is triple h has been on more handouts than homeless people at a foodbank and must pray long and hard each morning that his marriage lasts or else he'll fizzle out into nothingness.
What was THIS all about?
Do you doubt that Jerry Lawler is HOF-worthy???
Erm yes.
His heart attack was probably his most meaningful contribution to pro wrestling.
#1-norm-fan
01-05-2014, 05:55 PM
:|
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 05:56 PM
And I'm done, you've now eclipsed mike adamle as the dumbest cunt here, kudos!
All it takes to be famous in the wwe these days is become a crack addict like Randy Orton, break your neck and retire early like Edge, bone the bosses daughter like Triple H , have a heart attack live on the air like jerry Lawler or fall to your death like Owen hart.
I bet Owen Hart's favourite movie was the cable guy lol.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 06:08 PM
I bet Owen Hart's favourite movie was the cable guy lol.
Yeah, pot kettle black indeed.
Shisen Kopf
01-05-2014, 06:14 PM
I think LOL TNA pretty much sums it up
Shisen Kopf
01-05-2014, 06:15 PM
I bet Owen Hart's favourite movie was the cable guy lol.
Actually, his fav movie was this gem
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_00z66u7QX_g/TCNhyz86kdI/AAAAAAAAAJA/14p88W5HtAA/s1600/Falling_Down-%5Bcdcovers_cc%5D-front.jpg
#1-norm-fan
01-05-2014, 06:19 PM
I fucking love that movie.
(RIP Owen)
#1-norm-fan
01-05-2014, 06:20 PM
Bobo, I'm curious. Serious question. How old are you and are you aware that Jerry Lawler existed before the mid-late 90's?
Yes I'm aware he did and he was pretty shit then or so I hear.
Shisen Kopf
01-05-2014, 06:33 PM
Jerry Lawler brought us Isaac Yankem best dentist rassler ever. I miss him. RIP Yankem.
Another thing I hate is the HOF which is not based on merit but on whoever McMahon thinks is worthy or needs to boost merchandise sales. If it were based on votes by wrestling magazine writers and fans fair enough but it ain't and it sucks big cock. Same for TNA too. WWE doesn't seem to give fans what it wants which is a good v bad the faces vs the authority all out story line. We need two clear factions. Bryan has gone from being title holder beating Cena at Summerslam and Orton at NOC to being Wyatt's bitch.
Jerry Lawler's wrestling career almost as hilarious as saying that Margaret Thatcher was a champion of peace and justice.
Blonde Moment
01-05-2014, 06:37 PM
I thought Falling Down was a pretty awesome movie at the time.
HHH is not in the same ballpark as HBK, Cena, The Rock, The Undertaker or even Bret Hart but he earned his spot and his legacy is just as valid as anyone elses and while i think he did manage to hold on for as long as he did due to whom he was poking as an OVERALL package he was better then Edge, Jericho, Beniot, Guerrero, Foley and in all honesty Kurt Angle.
To stay on Topic:
The only thing TNA had going for it was when the X division and the Women division had center stageand the dismantling of both is why I truely have come to hate Hogan and Bishoff's contribution to the company. Now they have nothing and have managed to alienate just about everyone who gave a shit about the company.
WWe: I really don't have much of a problem with them and while I really am tired of the Cena show, he is the one carrying the Company and no one has worked harder to be where he is. That being said I hate the womens division and would just as well see them scrap it then to have to sit through watching the talented Divas take a backseat to the fluff. HHH is doing his best to try and get new talent spots, which is something i can really respect him for, and seems to be really trying to make some change in the company.
Blonde Moment
01-05-2014, 06:39 PM
Jerry Lawler's wrestling career almost as hilarious as saying that Margaret Thatcher was a champion of peace and justice.
Tell me of his Career please. While his WWe wrestling career was ....embarassing he played his role well and him and JR made Raw watchable when at times it just plain sucked.
As for the rest you need to do some research or stfu boy
I thought Falling Down was a pretty awesome movie at the time.
HHH is not in the same ballpark as HBK, Cena, The Rock, The Undertaker or even Bret Hart but he earned his spot and his legacy is just as valid as anyone elses and while i think he did manage to hold on for as long as he did due to whom he was poking as an OVERALL package he was better then Edge, Jericho, Beniot, Guerrero, Foley and in all honesty Kurt Angle.
To stay on Topic:
The only thing TNA had going for it was when the X division and the Women division had center stageand the dismantling of both is why I truely have come to hate Hogan and Bishoff's contribution to the company. Now they have nothing and have managed to alienate just about everyone who gave a shit about the company.
WWe: I really don't have much of a problem with them and while I really am tired of the Cena show, he is the one carrying the Company and no one has worked harder to be where he is. That being said I hate the womens division and would just as well see them scrap it then to have to sit through watching the talented Divas take a backseat to the fluff. HHH is doing his best to try and get new talent spots, which is something i can really respect him for, and seems to be really trying to make some change in the company.
TNA only became relevant when Hogan came along. His popularity alone drew fans to the programme and even the live events. My main reason for going to the TNA show in the UK was to see hogan, sting and a couple of the knockouts. Otherwise with the exception or AJ Styles and Aries, TNA is shit.
I'd rate HHH above Benoit but not the others. But arguably we were denied perhaps a few more iconic moments for Edge and Eddie due to tragic circumstances.
Foley endeared himself more to the fans as the unwashed, unkempt, loveable loser who came good not to mention his hardcore style which was unseen prior to his arrival.
Jericho had plenty of funny moments in both the WCW and wwe and was a big star in both.
Eddie did it all at every weight level and of all those mentioned above I rate him the highest.
#1-norm-fan
01-05-2014, 06:57 PM
Jerry Lawler's wrestling career almost as hilarious as saying that Margaret Thatcher was a champion of peace and justice.
(or so you hear)
(or so you hear)
You mean Lawler or thatcher? Both were complete cunts.
#1-norm-fan
01-05-2014, 07:00 PM
I thought Falling Down was a pretty awesome movie at the time.
It was a great movie.
I liked this one too...
http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/201440.1020.A.jpg
Blonde Moment
01-05-2014, 07:04 PM
TNA only became relevant when Hogan came along. His popularity alone drew fans to the programme and even the live events. My main reason for going to the TNA show in the UK was to see hogan, sting and a couple of the knockouts. Otherwise with the exception or AJ Styles and Aries, TNA is shit.
I'd rate HHH above Benoit but not the others. But arguably we were denied perhaps a few more iconic moments for Edge and Eddie due to tragic circumstances.
Foley endeared himself more to the fans as the unwashed, unkempt, loveable loser who came good not to mention his hardcore style which was unseen prior to his arrival.
Jericho had plenty of funny moments in both the WCW and wwe and was a big star in both.
Eddie did it all at every weight level and of all those mentioned above I rate him the highest.
Foley was nothing more then a glorified stuntman, a trash wrerstler and when you take that away you have nothing.
While Jericho was a big star he was also known for injuring his opponents and botching spots on a regular basis
While an awesome wrestler Eddie sucked on the mike and it took him juicing to go up the ladder. He was a good midcarder.
Edge had the look but not the charisma, you take away the TLC matches and what do you have left? GORE GORE GORE!!
Angle was an awesome wrestler but clumsy on the mike and still is
TNA sacrificed what brought them to the dance thinking that some old faces would do the job that a crap load of money, time and exporsure would. We went from the women putting on a show, often outshining them men to being regurgitated lesser divas
Ultra Mantis
01-05-2014, 07:06 PM
All it takes to be famous in the wwe these days is become a crack addict like Randy Orton, break your neck and retire early like Edge, bone the bosses daughter like Triple H , have a heart attack live on the air like jerry Lawler or fall to your death like Owen hart.
I bet you haven't done a single one of those things.
whiteyford
01-05-2014, 07:07 PM
Foley was nothing more then a glorified stuntman, a trash wrerstler and when you take that away you have nothing.
One of the greatest promo guys ever and the 'stunts' were always part of a larger story. The whole glorified stuntman stuff is bollocks, yeah he took some ridiculous bumps in his career but the most successful part of it was his toned down mr Socko stuff.
Shisen Kopf
01-05-2014, 07:08 PM
It was a great movie.
I liked this one too...
http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/201440.1020.A.jpg
I taped that movie off of hbo back in the day. Hooray VCRs!
I think wwe needs to do a separate divas wrestling Show and get back buff female hotties like beth Phoenix, Gail Kim, Victoria, Lita etc and make them wear tighter skimpier out fights or indeed have naked oil wrestling matches. The kids need to see it some time. Also maybe use some of the puny wrestlers like Daniel Bryan and santino and hornswoggle and have them dominated by say tamina in the ring like her using her tits to crush santino. Ooh baby.
Didn't jimmy hart used to run a naked women's wrestling promotion?
Shisen Kopf
01-05-2014, 07:27 PM
Wrestle-licious
I bet you haven't done a single one of those things.
Other than boning the bosses daughter why on Earth would I want to be a druggie break my neck! have a heart attack or die?
Wrestle-licious
Santino v Beth Phoenix in a boxing match would have been awesome.
He was being pushed long before Stephanie was in the equation, and after HBK was out 'retired', so if this is going to be all you have outside asinine paedo comments I think you should take a break. THIS (fucking hell I'm defending Triple H)
:nono:
owenbrown
01-05-2014, 08:02 PM
starting to have flashbacks of this thread....
http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?t=50308
Nowhere Man
01-05-2014, 08:04 PM
I'm gonna attempt to steer this back on topic and State My Case.
WWE:
The Good:
*WWE has, without even a slight bit of exaggeration, the absolute best collection of wrestling talent in the world. If you're a snob for workrate like I am, you've got Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler, Antonio Cesaro, Seth Rollins, etc. If you're into big-man power wrestling, you've got Mark Henry, Big Show, Langston, and company. If you like talkers with lots of personality, you've got (again) Punk, Bray Wyatt, John Cena (when he's motivated), mouthpieces like Paul Heyman and Zeb Colter, and so on. And if you like slow and boring wrestling like Steele, you've got Randy and Triple H :p
In all seriousness, though, WWE has something for everyone, and a lot of it.
*The in-ring action lately has been some of the best it's ever been. Guys like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk being elevated into main event spots certainly has a lot to do with that, pushing mainstays like Cena and Randy to step up their own game and put on some fantastic matches. And the whole card is packed with goodness-- the Tag Team division in particular has been on fire recently (though it'd help if the titles would change hands more). And that's to say nothing of the up-and-comers on NXT busting their asses in order to get noticed by the higher-ups (and yes, a lot of my love for NXT comes from me being totally in love with the women there and my giant man-crush on Sami Zayn, but sue me)
*On top of that, they've got the best production values, not just in terms of getting the biggest venues and having the coolest sets, but making their angles and moments seem so much more important than anything anyone else can manage. Seriously, whoever makes their video packages deserves a goddamn medal.
*While they rarely make mention of it on the main show, the fact that they've got all the assets to not just their own classic history, but that of WCW and ECW, gives them an incredible legacy to pull from. Nowhere is this more evident than on WWE.com, where they go out of their way to acknowledge old gimmicks, defunct promotions, etc. Seriously, wrestling history is pretty awesome, and WWE has pretty much all of it.
*The Big PPVs, namely Wrestlemania and the Royal Rumble. Even the worst Royal Rumble is still pretty damn fun, and even the weakest Wrestlemanias have at least one genuine classic moment. Summerslam is typically a great show, too, if not quite up there. If only they'd bring back King of the Ring and make Survivor Series worth a damn again, but still, at least three of the 'Big Five' keep my attention.
The Bad:
*Despite having the absolute best roster on Earth, Creative seems to only have worthwhile material for about 15% of them at any given time. Sure, it's awesome to see Bryan feuding with Bray Wyatt or the character development within the Shield that's leading to their inevitable breakup, but it's heartbreaking to see Dolph Ziggler, Damian Sandow, and to a lesser extent Curtis Axel, Kofi Kingston, the Miz, etc, just floating nebulously in the midcard having the exact same match over and over and over, knowing full well that it accomplishes absolutely nothing. Either hire better idea-people to make everyone on the show worth watching, or cut your losses and release the people you're not actually interested in utilizing.
*Ignoring their own history, or completely rewriting it. Yeah, I get that they wanted this recent Title Unification to be a big deal, but did we really have to do it at the expense of the original Unification back in 2001? So now they're telling us that the WCW World Title that Chris Jericho unified with the WWF Title somehow isn't connected to the original NWA World Heavyweight Title, but the one that Eric Bischoff broke out the next year because Triple H needed a Title somehow is. My own personal distaste for Trips aside, the fact that they needed to discredit a much better event to promote a match that wasn't even particularly good was cringe-worthy. This one gets downright infuriating sometimes, where wrestlers completely forget their own past as soon as one feud ends and another begins. I'm supposed to believe that Rey Mysterio and John Cena are just completely cool being buddies with CM Punk after all the shit he put them through in their respective feuds? And it's not like Punk ever had a change of heart-- he just went from "guy who is an asshole to faces" to "guy who is an asshole to heels."
*While I'm at it, all of the 'good guys' are total assholes. I am getting so goddamn tired of feuds where the heel is completely and totally right, and the face's only response is "Yeah? Well I'm just gonna kick your ass!" Sandow versus Sheamus was far and away the most egregious example this year, but there are so many times where a face will be motivated by the most petty negative bullshit--grossly disproportionate revenge for a slight, repeatedly mocking and bullying someone for being snobby (or often just for being Vickie Guerrero), etc. I know this happens in TNA and the indies too, but WWE is a multi-billion-dollar corporation reaching an audience of millions, and is intentionally marketing themselves as a family-friendly program. Going "Hey kids, being a violent, ignorant, arrogant, usually misogynistic, often homophobic, and generally abusive bully is totally cool as long as you're more popular than the people you're hurting!" is not an acceptable message to be promoting on a PG show.
*WWE currently has Joey Styles and William Regal on their payroll, and yet they choose to have fucking Michael Cole and JBL as their announce team. So even when the show is at its best, I still have to hear Bradshaw spouting his awful incessant redneck hate-noise at all times, at least when there's not a painfully long pause in the conversation or the corpse of Jerry Lawler belching out an un-funny grandpa joke.
*The Divas Division is a goddamn joke, and there's no excuse for it. Seriously, watch an NXT match of Emma or Paige or Bailey (also, anyone else think it's kinda wrong that most of the women don't get last names?) putting on the best match of the night on a show full of good-to-great matches, and then watch the Total Divas playing musical chairs with Lawler or linking arms to do horrible-looking chain clotheslines. It's fucking disgraceful, and it honestly feels even more dehumanizing and degrading than in the Attitude Era where they would just parade the women around in their underwear--at least then it was implied that they were adults and not a bunch of obnoxious awful high-school 'mean girls.' They obviously don't give a shit; you've got over a dozen of them on the roster, and half of them turn heel or face for no reason other than to balance the teams out. Just bring the NXT ladies up on the main roster, then fire all the Divas that aren't AJ Lee or Summer Rae (and I guess the Bellas if it keeps Cena and Bryan happy).
*Quit trying to do comedy sketches. You don't have comedians writing or performing them, so they are never, ever funny. They're just painful and go on forever.
I'll do one for TNA later, once I've cleansed my proverbial palette.
Emperor Smeat
01-05-2014, 10:09 PM
WWE Good:
* Great tag and multi-man matches the past 1-2 years
* NXT has been really good
* The added hour of RAW has lead to a lot of great matches being possible
* Lots of great talent on the roster
* Brock Lesnar
WWE Bad:
* Creative and booking has been a really weak spot the past few years. Pretty much a mix of the WWE doing a poor job generating new top stars, relying way too much on Cena and past big stars, being really inconsistent in storylines or direction, and panicking way too quickly when something goes wrong.
* Authority angle has been a big mess with Orton and Bryan being impacted the worst.
* Ryback in regards to how badly he's been handled in recent times.
* RAW commentary team being bad a lot more than good the past few years. JBL has been a bit annoying assuming he really is Vince's mouthpiece while Lawler has been the weak link for years.
TNA Good:
* Lots of great talent on the roster
* Impact having its moments when it produces better overall shows than RAW.
* Bully Ray's rise in recent years.
TNA Bad:
* Aces & Eights storyline overall dragged on way too much.
* Hogan and Bischoff doing more harm than good during their time with the company.
* Creative and booking being the really big weak point of TNA for years.
* Being over-reliant on having big surprises that either end up as a huge laughing stock or ruined quickly.
#1-norm-fan
01-05-2014, 10:15 PM
Crying Jericho pretty much sums up WWE's terrible "come up with something now, think of a reason later" booking technique. It's really something even the worst TV writers probably look at and think "Holy fuck, how do people get paid for this!?!?" Seems like one of the most basic things you would learn before becoming a professional writer is not to start a story without having any idea where the fuck to go with it.
Tom Guycott
01-06-2014, 12:12 AM
TNA needs to get out of their own way and stop chasing WWE's shadow. Even WWE took over 3 decades to become WWE, and they need to quit convincing themselves they can re-create that in a year to 18 months. If they would have just kept all the things that had worked for them and scrapped what didn't as apposed to repeatedly hitting the reset button on the promotion, they could have been making decent noise for themselves by now.
WWE needs to stop losing interest in people in 6 months. If a noob don't hit megastar instantly anymore, WWE seems to treat them as if they're somehow a lost cause. Cena didn't become Cena overnight (neccessity at the time aside), The Rock didn't become The Rock overnight. Honestly, Hulkamania wasn't overnight. It took an investment in time from fans actually giving a shit about them- and part of that was because they were given a reason to in that time.
In both these things, TNA and WWE are kinda similar: impatience. They both want a quick fix for something that takes a lot more time than they seem to be willing to want to invest. For TNA, its their image as a company and for WWE it's that next crossover megastar.
MIZantine Empire
01-06-2014, 03:15 AM
I watch both brands, and actually am entertained by the two.. But tna does some stupid shit sometimes.. They have Eric young trying to prove to Joseph park that he is abyss.. So of course he doesn't roll op parks sleeves to show him the tattoos on his arms... Lol just way too drawn out of a story line that is unnecessary.. Wwe does some dumb shit too, but tna makes me question why I watch it sometimes.. Lol
Fignuts
01-06-2014, 04:59 AM
Fuckin' muties.
Mr. Nerfect
01-06-2014, 09:04 AM
Are we still discussing Triple H? Have we accepted that he is one of the WWE's biggest stars ever whether you like him or not?
Mr. Nerfect
01-06-2014, 09:06 AM
I am glad Nowhere Man mentioned that he finds it wrong many of the Divas don't get last names. This actually does bother me sometimes. I've gotten more and more used to it, but can you imagine a wrestler named "Blake" winning the World Heavyweight Championship? It was odd enough when Christian won the World Title as "Christian."
Innovator
01-06-2014, 09:28 AM
TNA needs to get out of their own way and stop chasing WWE's shadow. Even WWE took over 3 decades to become WWE, and they need to quit convincing themselves they can re-create that in a year to 18 months. If they would have just kept all the things that had worked for them and scrapped what didn't as apposed to repeatedly hitting the reset button on the promotion, they could have been making decent noise for themselves by now.
WWE needs to stop losing interest in people in 6 months. If a noob don't hit megastar instantly anymore, WWE seems to treat them as if they're somehow a lost cause. Cena didn't become Cena overnight (neccessity at the time aside), The Rock didn't become The Rock overnight. Honestly, Hulkamania wasn't overnight. It took an investment in time from fans actually giving a shit about them- and part of that was because they were given a reason to in that time.
In both these things, TNA and WWE are kinda similar: impatience. They both want a quick fix for something that takes a lot more time than they seem to be willing to want to invest. For TNA, its their image as a company and for WWE it's that next crossover megastar.
I think if WWE doubles their rights fees (which they should considering they got hosed last time) and the Network takes off, it'll almost "creative-proof" the company where they can take time with guys rather than worry about the ratings and spiking them.
Heisenberg
01-06-2014, 09:54 AM
WWE Good:
Mainstay of the wrestling world
Attitude Era and other parts of the past to lean on
Set the standard or improved a lot of things within the realm of wrestling
Big supporter of troops
WWE Bad:
PG atmosphere currently, has hardcore fans yearning for another Attitude era, but there is no WCW to watch until it happens like last time.
Feels like RAW is being decided that day mid-card wise. I remember enjoying the Steve Blackman and Al Snow shit, the stables like Right To Censor and all other middle man goodness. I rarely enjoy seeing Kofi and the Miz going at it. I love all the performers and all, but they need to stable everyone up and make it worthwhile. They are only using stables to form new talent like The Shield and Wyatts, Nexus too. Some of the older folk need to group up and sell some merch.
TNA Good:
Match quality
Lets you know when the talent arrive to the building, sometimes will show them arriving to make sure you know that they are there. Very important to me at times.
Shark Boy and Curry Man
House shows are on point and interactive
TNA Bad:
Rockstar Spud makes me turn off IMPACT
Dixie Carter started talking, major boner killa
Episodes are unbearable to sit through
Heisenberg
01-06-2014, 10:02 AM
http://i.imgur.com/r3xHndP.gif
Got a .gif to lead off that super serious post
I am glad Nowhere Man mentioned that he finds it wrong many of the Divas don't get last names. This actually does bother me sometimes. I've gotten more and more used to it, but can you imagine a wrestler named "Blake" winning the World Heavyweight Championship? It was odd enough when Christian won the World Title as "Christian."
Wrestlers without last names? Meng, Wrath, Haku, Sabu, Barbarian, Virgil, Vincent, Yokozuna, Goldberg, Mankind, Sting, Edge, Christian, Sheamus......................................... The last seven names, did you find it odd when they won?
I get your point though.....kind of......maybe.
Sexton-Hardcastle
01-06-2014, 12:48 PM
Of all of those only Christian and Sheamus have anything that a sane person would class as a first name.... Goldberg IS the guys last name for christ sake..
The rest are all single 'character' names and thus nullify the point you are failing to make and accentuate the very valid point that Noid eloquently did make...
Well done.
Rammsteinmad
01-06-2014, 01:14 PM
Both companies have great wrestlers on their rosters, and shit wrestlers on their rosters. They both have writers/creative people who know what they're doing, and they both have people that throw shit together with no idea where it's going. They both make mistakes, and they both do good things.
Only real difference is that WWE has the history and the budget to make it seem more important.
Of all of those only Christian and Sheamus have anything that a sane person would class as a first name.... Goldberg IS the guys last name for christ sake..
The rest are all single 'character' names and thus nullify the point you are failing to make and accentuate the very valid point that Noid eloquently did make...
Well done.
Oh go fuck yourself you little cunt face mother fucker.
Mr. Nerfect
01-06-2014, 06:52 PM
Wrestlers without last names? Meng, Wrath, Haku, Sabu, Barbarian, Virgil, Vincent, Yokozuna, Goldberg, Mankind, Sting, Edge, Christian, Sheamus......................................... The last seven names, did you find it odd when they won?
I get your point though.....kind of......maybe.
Yeah, most of them are not first names, Bobo...
Anybody Thrilla
01-07-2014, 09:12 PM
Wrath Smith
Anybody Thrilla
01-07-2014, 09:12 PM
Barbarian Harris
Mr. Nerfect
01-07-2014, 09:33 PM
Sting Peters
Mr. Nerfect
01-07-2014, 09:34 PM
Mankind Goldstein
Mr. Nerfect
01-07-2014, 09:35 PM
Yokozuna P. Jackson
Mr. Nerfect
01-07-2014, 09:35 PM
Edge O'Reilly-James
Just to pick up on a point I made in the WCW 2001 thread is despite it's shortcomings and criticisms, I think TNA right now is still a much better product than WCW ever was between 1999 to 2001.
I can only say that from a uk perspective but though I was a huge WCW fan back in the day other than recorded episodes of nitro and thunder on a Friday night on TNT, wcw's presence in the uk was non existent. Merchandise was hard to come by and had to be ordered by mail for extortionate prices, they never toured the uk and we never once had any of the Ppvs broadcast here either live or in their entirety and I suspect that was the same in other territories worldwide.
It wasn't until about 2000 that WCW even began touring the uk and or making promotional appearances and even then it was a pisstake and was already too late. So despite winning the Monday night wars outside the US WCW was nowhere near WWE i terms of popularity.
TNA however learned from WCWs mistakes at a very early stage perhaps having had the benefit of witnessing what happened before. But almost from its inception TNA had a presence in the Uk and worldwide with a specific TNA European website and shop, multiple programming other than just impact episodes including Ppvs either live or recorded. TNAs tours are not that bad either, they put on a decent show, the fan interaction events are great etc.
In other words TNA aimed to be a global product from its inception whereas even at the peak of their popularity, WCW seemed to care little about international markets and had they been a bit more considerate of that, they perhaps wouldn't have gone the way they did.
As I said before since the demise of WCW, the quality of WWE programming has diminished. I mean seriously having the muppets, three stooges and Seth green on Raw? Just as bad as when they had Robocop and Chucky on WCW.
The management are two faced hypocritical cunts too. I love how they unceremoniously sacked JR and then had the nerve to 'pay tribute' to him on twitter and on wwe.com.
Yeah, Seth Green was an iffy host because the PG rating held him back. Green would have been gold if allowed to do TV14 stuff like "Goldust got fingered".
Innovator
01-10-2014, 11:45 AM
PG isn't holding them back, a lot of great tv and movies are PG. Shitty writing is holding them back.
Innovator
01-10-2014, 11:46 AM
And go back and rewatch the almighty Attitude Era. 70% of it is unwatchable it's so bad.
whiteyford
01-10-2014, 11:46 AM
Inno knows.
whiteyford
01-10-2014, 11:50 AM
The Hogan era was PG, WCW for the most part was PG, never got the whole PG is ruining wrestling argument, XPW was far from PG and was generally terrible.
And yeah the Attitude era is vastly overrated, it had some amazing stuff but also some amazingly bad stuff.
Anybody Thrilla
01-13-2014, 03:39 PM
Naked Mideon. Yikes.
#1-norm-fan
01-13-2014, 05:38 PM
PG isn't holding them back, a lot of great tv and movies are PG. Shitty writing is holding them back.
Pretty much this. I could care less what rating they wanna go. Just make it compelling.
I do think they've taken the PG rating as a reason to not try though. Kids are stupid. They don't need compelling storylines or anything. So just throw some random guys out in a meaningless match and throw in a comedy segment geared toward 5 year olds every once in a while and you're all set.
scatterbrain28
01-13-2014, 09:19 PM
Foley was nothing more then a glorified stuntman, a trash wrerstler and when you take that away you have nothing.
While Jericho was a big star he was also known for injuring his opponents and botching spots on a regular basis
While an awesome wrestler Eddie sucked on the mike and it took him juicing to go up the ladder. He was a good midcarder.
Edge had the look but not the charisma, you take away the TLC matches and what do you have left? GORE GORE GORE!!
Angle was an awesome wrestler but clumsy on the mike and still is
Man if you consider these guys amateur hour then I just wonder what your idea of great wrestling is and what a great promo looks like. I hope you at least like Stone Cold Steve Austin.
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