rewatching Vengance 2005

[NormanSmiley]

opening match was Shelton Benjamin v. Carlito . Benjamin really carried him through the match and carlito seemed to shit to me in the ring always.

Looking back on Shelton he had the look, the skill set, and in ring charisma, just wasn't all that fantastic on the mic I recall?

my question is with Kurt still being in the company and you could elevate him to world champ at any moment would you guys have bout a run with Shelton getting the big title in a program with Kurt? or was he destined for mid card status?

[Anybody Thrilla]

I don't think I understand your question. Are you talking about TNA?

[NormanSmiley]

no with kurt still being in WWE in 2005, back then would you have been for a Shelton title reign or shit on it

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I would have had him as a main stay upper mid carder who could slot in on any main event. But then again, if I booked, the upper mid card would actually mean something.

[Phillip Brooks]

Vengance was poo

[Anybody Thrilla]

I don't think he was ready for a major title, but I wouldn't have minded seeing him in a couple main events with Kurt, I guess.

If you're looking for Shelton Benjamin today, his name is Kofi Kingston.

[#1-norm-fan]

Loved Shelton Benjamin and his mother. He was never world champion material though. Nor was she.

[Fignuts]

Vengance was poo


Hello, Heyman.

Benjamin is a great worker but he's just a mechanic. Doesn't have all the tools to be champ.

[Bad News Gertner]

I would have whipped out my cock and pissed on it. Shelton is not, was not, nor ever will be a main event guy. Not everyone is, and that's fine.

[Droford]

I don't think I understand your question. Are you talking about TNA?
MVP isn't Shelton Benjamin

Even if both of their themes touched on the subject of the ability to stop them

[Anybody Thrilla]

They did tag together in Japan, though.

[Curd]

MVP isn't Shelton Benjamin

Even if both of their themes touched on the subject of the ability to stop them

The Black Juggernauts

[KaosDarksol]

I could have seen him get a money in the bank style run with one of the major titles, but that's about it

[Juan]

Remember that time Shelton Benjamin wrestled The Undertaker on Smackdown in like 2009 or 2010?

[#1-norm-fan]

I would have whipped out my cock and pissed on it. Shelton is not, was not, nor ever will be a main event guy. Not everyone is, and that's fine.

Things would be a lot better off if more people could understand this.

[Bad News Gertner]

Remember during the "glory days" of the 98-2004? They had guys like Stone Cold, The Rock, Angle etc... who were the main event guys, the guys who were marquee and drew the casuaal fans in, but just as important was the undercard. You had a tag team division with the Outlaws, Dudley Boyz, Hardyz, APA, IC guys like Billy Gunn, Jericho, Shamrock, etc.. who can and did break through who were just as important to the show as it made it a complete show. Just because someone isn't in the main event isn't a knock. People say I shit all over everything, but it's not true. I go by the line"everybody has a role" be it Cena, Bryan, Orton or Slater, Bourne or Kidd. Now whether they are used correctly is a different story but in an ideal world you'd have a main event scene and a solid undercard to draw from if they catch on. That's where Benjamin plays in. Not a main event guy and never should have held the World Title, but a guy who put on great matches and can play an inportant role in the tag scene or US/IC titles. An undercard of Kingston, Rollins, Langston with actual storylines and iinteresting characters only benefits. If they break through to the main event then great, if not that's ok. There's a role for them.

[Bad News Gertner]

People knock Russo and rightly so, but I guarantee if he were writing under McMahon that the undercard would be better because he at least gave guys something.

[#1-norm-fan]

And Daniel Bryan would be over working the mid-upper midcard and there would be no outcry for him to win the world title.

[Fignuts]

Upper mid-card guys don't get the reactions Bryan does.

I'm with you guys that not everyone can be a main eventer, but at this point if you lump Bryan in with that group, you're nuts.

[Bad News Gertner]

And Daniel Bryan would be over working the mid-upper midcard and there would be no outcry for him to win the world title.

Lol Russo wanted Tank Abbott as WCW champ. I'm sure Bryan would be fine.

[#1-norm-fan]

Upper mid-card guys don't get the reactions Bryan does.

I'm with you guys that not everyone can be a main eventer, but at this point if you lump Bryan in with that group, you're nuts.

Overness with the existing crowd is not the main factor in if someone should be world champion/headlining shows or not. There's a reason crowds can go nuts chanting Bryan's catchphrase while half of them shit on Cena yet Cena is still infinitely more valuable.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Remember during the "glory days" of the 98-2004? They had guys like Stone Cold, The Rock, Angle etc... who were the main event guys, the guys who were marquee and drew the casuaal fans in, but just as important was the undercard. You had a tag team division with the Outlaws, Dudley Boyz, Hardyz, APA, IC guys like Billy Gunn, Jericho, Shamrock, etc.. who can and did break through who were just as important to the show as it made it a complete show. Just because someone isn't in the main event isn't a knock. People say I shit all over everything, but it's not true. I go by the line"everybody has a role" be it Cena, Bryan, Orton or Slater, Bourne or Kidd. Now whether they are used correctly is a different story but in an ideal world you'd have a main event scene and a solid undercard to draw from if they catch on. That's where Benjamin plays in. Not a main event guy and never should have held the World Title, but a guy who put on great matches and can play an inportant role in the tag scene or US/IC titles. An undercard of Kingston, Rollins, Langston with actual storylines and iinteresting characters only benefits. If they break through to the main event then great, if not that's ok. There's a role for them.

This what I'm getting at. The undercard shouldn't be filler, it should be as deep and as intriguing as the main event scene. US/IC titles should be considered important titles, then if guys didn't get to the main even, people wouldn't piss and moan about it.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Overness with the existing crowd is not the main factor in if someone should be world champion/headlining shows or not. There's a reason crowds can go nuts chanting Bryan's catchphrase while half of them shit on Cena yet Cena is still infinitely more valuable.

If given a chance, Bryan could be very valuable, you never really know. He's getting into the mainstream now.

[Innovator]

This what I'm getting at. The undercard shouldn't be filler, it should be as deep and as intriguing as the main event scene. US/IC titles should be considered important titles, then if guys didn't get to the main even, people wouldn't piss and moan about it.

I think it'd go a long way to curbing the frustration a lot of wrestlers have in WWE if they gave the midcard storylines and feuds instead of random matches and heel turns that are forgotten.

[NormanSmiley]

I think we are all in agreeance on this that one of the most frustrating things is seeing guys flounder.

Let's all remember that Steve Austin's big run was not all that planned out, it was sort of crowd response mixed in with an injury that caused him to be more on the mic less in the ring. But that KOTR spot was Hunter's and SCSA was put in it as a backup plan and from there Austin 3:16 caused the snowball to start rolling. But somebody saw the gravitational pull and decided they couldn't deny it. Whether that was VM, or Russo, or Jim Ross none of can say but whomever it was I don't think works there any longer due to where we are with db

The Midcard did used to mean something. Even when I first started watching at mania 3, Hercules and Billy Jack Haynes were two guys obviously not going to be "the man" in a fued over who had the better full nelson, cant make this shit up. But the package before the match showed the history and you cared a little about the 2nd match on the card.

in the Attitude era like you guys said for Russo's credit. the angles may have seemed lame at points but at least people had angles.

Right now you look at this roster and handfuls of guys have nothing going on! this fandango gimmick is total dog shit and this guy should be someone who beats NXT guys regularly and gets beat up by any face in the company on raw, much like the genius from the 90s. Rey Mysterio hasn't been in a feud for I don't know how long, and not that Rey needs to go anywhere but he can still give a match to someone. Dean Ambrose is the US champ who never defends the belt because hes in 6 man tags all the time.

That I think leads to a lot of frustration with long term fans on top of the other things like bringing in guys who aren't over to give them feuds and spots out of nowhere.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

It's super hard for fans to get into anything when everything is generic and pain by the numbers. Like ABT said in another thread, "workrate" is probably at an all time high. Guys are being kept safe, but they're working super athletic, quick paced matches. The problem is, the results rarely matter because there's no tabs being kept, there's nothing personal, there's no hint of an actual story line.

You know what'd make it easy? The idea that guys were actually hungry to prove themselves, and that match finishes actually mattered, because there was an idea they'd be moving up the ladder. A 10 minute Cesaro vs Ziggler match could mean something on RAW if they built its importance for each guy the previous week on RAW and commentated the match like there was a point to it, instead of dealing with it on a very reactionary basis saying "WHAT A MOVE BY CESARO WHAT A BEAST" then schilling the main event angle of the evening. Instead, it's just guy a vs guy b, and usually guy c interferes and distracts guy a so guy b wins, to build to another pointless ppv pre show match nobody cares about.

[XL]

Honestly can't remember the last real feud/storyline over the IC or US belts. I don't Meccan a series of matches (see Langston vs. Axel), I mean an actual storyline built around the belt or champion. Looking back as Rock/Austin, Rock/HHH, Austin/Owen, Owen/HHH (Euro belt) they were seriously good feuds that were more than "trading wins".

[NormanSmiley]

well said XL, there is no emphasis put on either title

[DAMN iNATOR]

Remember that time Shelton Benjamin wrestled The Undertaker on Smackdown in like 2009 or 2010?

Yes. I also remember him wrestling and beating guys like Eddie, Triple H and Y2J. Yet none of that changes the fact that he was going to be, at best, US/IC Champ level in WWE. If only some of his fans could understand that the way Vince did...

[NormanSmiley]

Yes. I also remember him wrestling and beating guys like Eddie, Triple H and Y2J. Yet none of that changes the fact that he was going to be, at best, US/IC Champ level in WWE. If only some of his fans could understand that the way Vince did...

that condescending tone would be easier to understand if VM+creative had gotten it right with every guy, every single time.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Gertner is essentially correct, but I sometimes disagree on where the peaks are with certain talent. Shelton Benjamin radiated mid-card at certain points in his career, sure, but there were times when it felt like he could have been used better, and that this could have led to momentum which could have transitioned him into a main event run.

[James Steele]

The main event of Vengeance 2005 was one of the best HIAC matches of all time.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol James you loser.

[Heyman]

opening match was Shelton Benjamin v. Carlito . Benjamin really carried him through the match and carlito seemed to shit to me in the ring always.

Looking back on Shelton he had the look, the skill set, and in ring charisma, just wasn't all that fantastic on the mic I recall?

my question is with Kurt still being in the company and you could elevate him to world champ at any moment would you guys have bout a run with Shelton getting the big title in a program with Kurt? or was he destined for mid card status?

Benjamin is a pretty good worker (atleast when he was younger), but he was always devoid of charisma.

If Benjamin was back in the WWE, he'd essentially be a negro verison of Sheamus if we're being optimistic.

He won't bring in new fans however.

The WWE needs to focus hard on creating NEW talent and NEW stars.

Bringing back guys from 2003-2005 isn't the way to go at all.

[Innovator]

Benjamin is a pretty good worker (atleast when he was younger), but he was always devoid of charisma.

If Benjamin was back in the WWE, he'd essentially be a negro verison of Sheamus if we're being optimistic.

He won't bring in new fans however.

The WWE needs to focus hard on creating NEW talent and NEW stars.

Bringing back guys from 2003-2005 isn't the way to go at all.

Exactly. Why bring in guys who won't move the needle at all who would ask for a higher price than the current midcard?

[NormanSmiley]

good job guys as I wasn't asking should Shelton get a title run today in 2014.

I was asking would a program of kurt angle(c) with Shelton Benjamin chasing and going over be entertaining in 2005

[Heyman]

good job guys as I wasn't asking should Shelton get a title run today in 2014.

I was asking would a program of kurt angle(c) with Shelton Benjamin chasing and going over be entertaining in 2005

The answer to your question, is yes.......yes it would have been.

Benjamin could have been a decent world champ, but nothing more than that. Too much backstage politics would have prevented anything significant from materializing beyond a 3-4 month title reign.

If we're being optimistic, he would have had a run similar to that of Benout/Guerrero (assuming he went over Angle at Mania?), but that's about it.

In 2005 - Benjamin would have still been far behind the likes of Cena, Batista, HHH, and Shawn Michaels.

Again though - it's all a moot point. Kind of a pointless question.

[Droford]

Viscera should have chosen Lillian over the hos.

[NormanSmiley]

Again though - it's all a moot point. Kind of a pointless question.

its wrestling everything we talk about it moot and pointless

[Bad News Gertner]

Rasslin is serious business

[parkmania]

Shelton Benjamin COULD have been gold, if he had been able to stay out of his own way.


Every time he seemed to be on the cusp of breaking BIG, it seems like he'd manage to do something worthy of inclusion of Botchmania. And then the push would vanish.

[NormanSmiley]

with Kurt and Shawn to work with I could have been sold on him being champ for 2-3 months