The Trial of Triple H

[hb2k]

So, for our next podcast, we're doing a court case format, where we have a judge, a prosecution and a defense, debating over a certain wrestler and their detrimental effect on the wrestling business. The first guy on the docket for this format is none other than Triple H.

The charge is that the political maneouverings and his insistence on being pushed so strong has been more of a detriment than a benefit to the wrestling business.

The show is going to be completely point/counterpoint, and we'll be reading your feedback on the show, so the better it is, the more it could sway the verdict - if you think he's done damage to the business, explain how you think he has (and feel free to give examples of what happened with different guys). On the flip side, if you are a defender of Triple H, or flat out believe that none of his actions over the years have been a negative on the business, explain why, this is, in essence a chance to clear his name.

Ultimately this should make for a fun debate on the show, and I'm keen to see what people think, since this goes a little deeper than smark Hunter bashing...

[whiteyford]

I want to see James Steele's reply here.

[road doggy dogg]

Not that I'm excusing his behaviour, but HHH was probably the best consistently great heel of the 21st century, so having him on our screens more isn't really a bad thing in my eyes. Whatevever, time to play the game.

[Innovator]

Is everyone already forgetting how much he put over Daniel Bryan at Mania?

[hb2k]

D-Bry is a good example of a tick in the "innocent column" for sure. But big picture, his entire in ring career, good or bad and why?

[James Steele]

When has Triple H ever been the #1 guy in WWE?

99-2001: Rock and Austin were the top guys. Triple H was the #1 foil though.
Early 2002: Triple H was the top guy because he was white hot on his return, but Rock returning and the return of Hogan took over.
mid 2002- late 2003: Triple H was the top guy when he returned, but he soon turned heel and Brock/Angle were the top guys for the bulk of this period once Rock/Hogan left again.
2004: Guerrero/Benoit were "the man". HHH then was built up to help make Batista once WWE found out Orton wasn't ready to be the top guy.
2005-2010: Cena/Batista took the torch. Hell, HHH was usually on the undercard with DX or feuding with Sheamus or Jeff Hardy.
2011-2013: Cena/Punk are the top guys.
Now: New blood is taking over with HHH running the show

I don't think Triple H ever was "shoved down our throats" as the top guy. He was always pushed a damn good wrestler, but only was the #1 face for the first half of 2002. Other than that he was pushed as the #1 heel who needed help from stables, weapons, etc. He was to be taken seriously, but he wasn't the unstoppable god of wrestling. He has helped make Benoit, Sheamus, Batista, Cena, Hardy, etc. all long-term top guys. Besides Flair, what main event guy has helped make as many guys as HHH?

Is WWE really all that wrong for trusting Triple H to steady the ship when Austin got hurt, Rock went to Hollywood, the brand split started and SmackDown! had the bulk of the stars, Brock left, Orton showed what an immature dickback he was, and to help SmackDown! when RAW boned them in the draft and needed to make new stars? Booker T at WMXIX is the only questionable decision during "HHH-palooza" and I don't think that was HHH's call. RVD was hot, but you don't put the belt on a guy who shits on the company and openly breaks the law. Steiner and Nash weren't going to get the belt, but they needed to be established as big deals in the WWE. HHH/Goldberg was a big deal and made Goldberg look like a fucking beast despite him being a horrible 1 trick pony. HHH on Smackdown from 07-09 helped make Edge and Jeff Hardy stars. Also, he had to carry Khali and Kozlov. The storyline going into WM25 had to have HHH win. Who helped restore Sheamus as a top guy after his push stalled in 2010? Triple H. Who put on classics with Taker after trying to follow the HBK matches? Triple H. He helped Brock look like a fucking war god moreso than he already is. HHH/Bryan speaks for itself. Also, DX vs Legacy and Evolution vs Shield are underrated in what they did for the younger superstars. DX being a comedy act and staying out of the title picture for awhile speaks for itself. Who is behind NXT. Triple H.Triple H has gone out of his way to make the business better.

[Hanso Amore]

LOL at Benoit and Eddy being "the Man" over HHH come on now

Also what a typical smark IWC fag topic

[Hanso Amore]

And yes, HHH was for a period shoved down our throats. From 2002-2005 ish before Cena became the top dog HHH was the top guy on the bigger show and was on TV for 30 minutes at least a week. This was mainly an issue in late 2003 and early 2004.

Since 2005 I think with a few exceptions of bad booking of his opponents hes done just as much putting over as "burying".

[Shisen Kopf]

Wow, this thread is INTENSE. Woah!

[Hanso Amore]

Seriously Steele...When Benoit was "the man" here was Raws PPV main events

WM - Benoit beats champion HHH and HBK
Backlash - Rematch of WM main event
Bad Blood - HHH vs HBK in a 48 minute Hell in a cell match. Benoit (the champion and man beat kane earlier in the night in a one off match that didnt have much build)
Vengeance - HHH vs Benoit
Summerslam - Benoit vs Orton - Benoit loses to Orton and goes back to the mid card.

So how exactly was he "the man"?

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Triple H is the best because he's cool. Kliq4Lyf.

[Shisen Kopf]

Is this a criminal or civil court case?

[James Steele]

Seriously Steele...When Benoit was "the man" here was Raws PPV main events

WM - Benoit beats champion HHH and HBK
Backlash - Rematch of WM main event
Bad Blood - HHH vs HBK in a 48 minute Hell in a cell match. Benoit (the champion and man beat kane earlier in the night in a one off match that didnt have much build)
Vengeance - HHH vs Benoit
Summerslam - Benoit vs Orton - Benoit loses to Orton and goes back to the mid card
So how exactly was he "the man"?

Brand split ppvs meant Benoit didn't headline as many PPVs as normal. Also, a 2 year feud ending in HIAC should have gone on last.

[Hanso Amore]

OK...that makes no point. Brand split means there were less PPVs Benoit main evented, and still they all were focused more on HHH.

Im on your side here, but to pretend that at any point HHH was never "the man" and to try to pretend eddie and benoit were, is a fucking joke.

[James Steele]

I'm sorry, but there is a reason Brock/Angle headlined WMXIX - SD! was the bigger show with biggger stars. Angle, Brock, Eddie, Taker, etc.

Raw had a bunch of old WCW guys who HHH had to carry.

[James Steele]

SummerSlam 04

Orton/Benoit headlined while HHH wrestled fucking EUGENE.

Orton flopped and HHH got the belt and went on to make Batista the only new star to come close to Cena in popularity. Batista was bigger than Cena for a period of time. Then, he feuds with Flair, makes Fans look like a star, and becomes a comedy act for 2 years.

[Hanso Amore]

I'm sorry, but there is a reason Brock/Angle headlined WMXIX - SD! was the bigger show with biggger stars. Angle, Brock, Eddie, Taker, etc.

Raw had a bunch of old WCW guys who HHH had to carry.

Oh jesus LOL

Smackdown has never ever ever been the bigger show. They were trying to push Lesnar so he went on last.

[Hanso Amore]

SummerSlam 04

Orton/Benoit headlined while HHH wrestled fucking EUGENE.

I know, I said that. And Benoit lost the title and was gone from the main event. Doesnt sound like what they do to the man. And guess who took his spot in the main event?

HHH

[Shisen Kopf]

Triple H has good workrate and that's all that matters. I hope he is found not guilty. Don't want him to go to jail.

[Hanso Amore]

I dont get you. for a guy who jerks off to HHH I dont know why you cant just admit that he was top dog in the WWE for a long time. No one is saying he shouldnt have been, or wasnt good at it. Most people are saying he was a great heel that deserves to have been the man.

THen you fight it like its some kind of bad thing. You are worse than the neckbeard "HHH Burying people" fags.

[hb2k]

Just to add fuel to this nicely simmering story, but do you think HHH's feud with Orton in 2004 did irreparable damage to Orton, or do you think he was always destined to be an 'almost' guy regardless.

[James Steele]

HHH has never been in the role of a Cena, Hogan, Rock, or Austin except for the first half of 2002.

[James Steele]

Just to add fuel to this nicely simmering story, but do you think HHH's feud with Orton in 2004 did irreparable damage to Orton, or do you think he was always destined to be an 'almost' guy regardless.

Orton wasn't ready as a wrestler or as a man. Orton did damage to himself.

[Hanso Amore]

Orton failed in 2004 because he was young, dumb, and had no idea how to get over as face. That was all on pushing him too soon. he was gold as a young cocky heel "prince" but had nothing to offer as a face.

[Hanso Amore]

HHH has never been in the role of a Cena, Hogan, Rock, or Austin except for the first half of 2002.

YEah, hes no Rock, Austin or Hogan, and maybe not a cena.

But the other people you named werent either, and hHH was way closer.

The guy has headlined probably 50 PPVs and you are trying to say guys like Benoit, Punk, Batista are somehow ""above him" and had more time as the top guy.

Newsflash, HHH is a top guy. Always.

[James Steele]

You said it yourself. WWE was pushing Brock in 02-03. HHH wasn't the "face of WWE".

[James Steele]

Piper was never a Hogan despite him headling so much either. Heels are rinherently not the top draw despite the face needing that major heel to draw.

[Hanso Amore]

And benoit was? And punk was? And Batista was? More so than HHH?

You are trying, and failing to make a false equivalency. Yes HHH was never one of the 4 biggest faces EVER. but hes right beneath it. And you are trying to play "OH he wasnt one of those 4 best ever so that means hes just like a bunch of other guys".

Im done, you are just being difficult and I dont even know why im defending HHH

[Hanso Amore]

Piper was never a Hogan despite him headling so much either. Heels are rinherently not the top draw despite the face needing that major heel to draw.

So your point is that since Piper wasnt Hogan, HHH was as big as Chris Benoit.....



yeaaaaaah sure

[James Steele]

I'm not saying HHH wasn't a top guy. I'm saying he was never in the position of the #1 draw guy that people claim he has politicked to be for 15 years.

[Hanso Amore]

ANd who were these long time money making FACES that made it big from HHH? Oh yeah, 2002-2005 where HHH was the HEEL and the focal point....Right.

[James Steele]

Its not Triple H's fault none of those guys stuck and became megastars. They just weren't that guy.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

He gave himself Jesus's nickname dude.

[James Steele]

Blasphemy = Heel Heat

[KIRA]

I have one charge his extraordinarily long-winded promos

Good god at one point I wasn't sure if I was supposed to hate Triple H or Paul Levesque.I understand a heel brags but jesus those opening promos went on for ever. The Rock even lampshades it.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

People on the internet hate Triple H?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/DMSHvgaUWc8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Bad News Gertner]

Im not going to even get into this arguement. JamesSteele is so beyond clueless it's silly.

[James Steele]

What actual evidence is there that Triple H went out of his way to bury anybody?

[Wishbone]

Gotta agree with Steele here. Triple H really hasn't buried anyone in his career, at least not to the extent people say he has. I mean the dude's career has been used more to put over others than anything for the last 10 years. Orton, Batista, Cena, Jeff Hardy, Sheamus and Bryan. Hell even Punk was supposed to have benefited from him.

[James Steele]

Triple H saved CM Punk from having to carry Kevin Nash. Triple H fell on that grenade for Punk.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Triple H made CM Punk cry and leave.

[#1-norm-fan]

I think Triple H's boring, monotonous 20 minute promos to open Raw every week for years where he reminded us multiple times that he's the game-ah... and he is that damn good could have been longer personally.

[hb2k]

Playing devil's advocate again - do you think there has been a focus on him more than there should have been over the years, and if so, how negatively do you guys think that's affected the company?

[Shisen Kopf]

You should put HHH's nose on trial.

[James Steele]

Playing devil's advocate again - do you think there has been a focus on him more than there should have been over the years, and if so, how negatively do you guys think that's affected the company?

No. When he was the major focus from 02-03, he was the only major star left who could still go. Raw had nothing left once Austin quit and then did 1 match and retired, Rock went to Hollywood, and all the major injuries to guys like Benoit and Rhyno. Raw had some potential guys but they shot themselves in the foot (RVD). Remember, he feuded with Bubba Ray and Eugene at one point. SmackDown! had all the stars who could still go in the ring. Nash/Booker T or Scott Steiner/Booker T would have been much better for a WMXIX Main event. Shawn Michaels didn't want any long runs with the belt, so WWE's hands were tied. Realistically, edge and the like weren't ready. Again, 2003 was arguably the most HHH-centric year in WWE, but that had more to do with HHH being the last Raw guy left from the Attitude era once Rock & Austin were gone, the nWo flopped, Hogan quit after his mania payday, and biker taker was on fumes. You could argue that the lengthy run in 2003 made it much more special in 3 straight WMs where HHH put over Benoit, Batista, and Cena. I just think 2003 was a bad year for Raw due to WWE focusing so much on Brock/Angle and building up SD! as an equal brand to Raw in the early days of the brand extension. Booker T is the only questionable decision from that period, and he simple wasn't that over (the time to push him was in 2001). HHH had to carry shit that whole year -- Steiner, Nash, Goldberg.

[The MAC]

http://cdn3.whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/tumblr_mi2vkvSW5b1rhxfs4o1_500.jpg

[Damian Rey]

Feels like Triple H breaks closer to even then people give him credit for. For all the shit he catches, he did make Batista, gave Cena arguably his most definitive win to date, and there have been instances where what he did was truly monumental (jobbing to Bryan, tapping to Benoit).

However, there are other times where, regardless of who's fault it is, he has been shoved into the main event and overstayed the welcome. The biggest run I can remember was from 03-04. He should have jobbed to Booker T at at Mania 19, and should have stepped down the card when Benoit finally won. Neither happened, and neither men ever met or surpassed the level of success they seemed on their way to during those respective runs.

The idea that he "made" Sheamus is laughable. He beat Sheamus, who was already booked as a fluke to that point, clean, at Mania, then loses the next month after pre match shenanigans, only to come back and write off the entire feud with a throwaway Pedigree. I don't really feel Sheamus ever got that one, definitive win over Triple H.

There were also other opportunities to give guys a rub that were missed completely. The most recent that I can recall being Curtis Axel. He slaps the kid down his rear, then dominates him in a match, only to have a few moves flare up his "concussion", with the match ending and Axel looking like schlub in winning by fluke.

Then there's my favorite. Randy Orton finally gains momentum going into Mania 25, hotter than he had ever been, only to job to Triple H at Mania, and never regaining that steam as a heel, and never really having that one defining victory. While Orton is to be blamed, as well as creative for being trigger happy, for his flopped push in 04, he was more than ready to win at Mania, and instead lost.

I also do not recall a legitimate, defining win for Jeff Hardy agains Triple H, either. Not saying it never happened, but the only thing I remember is a roll up victory.

Then again, he's essentially been a job machine the last few months, cleanly jobbing to DB and the Shield in consecutive PPV's, and more than likely jobbing to Roman Reigns at SS later this year.

So, like I said, good and bad. I think he's more innocent than not. He did have to carry schlubs like Goldberg, Steiner and Nash to matches nobody cared to see, while the better in ring talent was on SmackDown!, which is hard to blame him for. There were times were he should have stepped out of the way, but at the end of the day, especially recently, I think he's breaking about as close to even as a guy with his status, tenure and track record could.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Triple H has good workrate and that's all that matters. I hope he is found not guilty. Don't want him to go to jail.

Me, too. I vote Not Guilty because Triple H remaining in WWE as C.O.O. IS best for business. Triple H in jail = NOT best for business or anything else, just as Shisen KOTF being unfairly jailed for being anti-bullying would not be best for TPWW. I hope that bully of a prosecutor Juan doesn't persuade the jury to vote guilty on the charges before MY CLIENT, Shisen KOTF, who is the "1" in "USA#1", and who broke Juan's undefeated ForumMania bullying streak at ForumMania XXX.

[The MAC]

cornette summed him up best : the guy who works with the guy that draws the money.

HHH is just not entertaining. He doesn't draw sympathy as a face and as a heel, he is just boring. Nothing about him stands out.

4/10

[KIRA]

Sigh not guilty Triple H is guilty of a lot of things but in the end he has shown that he onlyt wants whats best even at the expense of personal glory.

[Sixx]

Me, too. I vote Not Guilty because Triple H remaining in WWE as C.O.O. IS best for business. Triple H in jail = NOT best for business or anything else, just as Shisrn KOTF being unfairly jailed for being anti-bullying would not be best for TPWW. I hope that bully of a prosecutor Juan doesn't persuade the jury to vote guilty on the charges before MY CLIENT, Shisen KOTF, who is the "1" in "USA#1", and who broke Juan's undefeated ForumMania bullying streak at ForumMania XXX.

What a stupid fuckin' post.

[Jura]

The other day when I was thinking about how huge the Shield is now and the possibility of a Triple H vs Roman Reigns match I realized Triple H is in close proximity of a lot of huge things that happened in the WWE recently. Brock Lesnar finally returned to the WWE and there was Triple H. Daniel Bryan became huge and who was there to face him at WM? Triple H. The Shield blows up and Evolution comes back then Triple H pulls in Rollins and he might face Reigns. Batista became real big especially when he left Evolution and faced Triple H. Then you have the two matches with Undertaker. Also Orton became the youngest champ during his time in Evolution with Triple H. And of course there's the joining of the two belts with the Authority backing Orton.

Is he really lucky? Does he force himself into these opportune situations so he can share in the spotlight? Or is this what he does and what he's best at? As a talker I find him slightly boring and I never found much depth to him but I believe he plays a big part in these huge accomplishments.

[DAMN iNATOR]

I have one charge his extraordinarily long-winded promos

Good god at one point I wasn't sure if I was supposed to hate Triple H or Paul Levesque.I understand a heel brags but jesus those opening promos went on for ever. The Rock even lampshades it.
It's not about quantity, it's about quality and love him or hate him, he's had some pretty epic promos on the mic over the years and is one of the top talkers I've ever seen and heard:

<iframe frameborder="0" width="560" height="315" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x18l4p" allowfullscreen></iframe><br /><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x18l4p_wwe-triple-h-returns-to-raw-january_videogames" target="_blank">WWE - Triple H Returns To RAW(January 7,</a> <i>by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/enriko44" target="_blank">enriko44</a></i>

What a stupid fuckin' post.

Aww, how adorable...Juan's partner in bullying showed up just in time to defend his friend's bullying ways. :roll:

[Hanso Amore]

Feels like Triple H breaks closer to even then people give him credit for. For all the shit he catches, he did make Batista, gave Cena arguably his most definitive win to date, and there have been instances where what he did was truly monumental (jobbing to Bryan, tapping to Benoit).

However, there are other times where, regardless of who's fault it is, he has been shoved into the main event and overstayed the welcome. The biggest run I can remember was from 03-04. He should have jobbed to Booker T at at Mania 19, and should have stepped down the card when Benoit finally won. Neither happened, and neither men ever met or surpassed the level of success they seemed on their way to during those respective runs.

The idea that he "made" Sheamus is laughable. He beat Sheamus, who was already booked as a fluke to that point, clean, at Mania, then loses the next month after pre match shenanigans, only to come back and write off the entire feud with a throwaway Pedigree. I don't really feel Sheamus ever got that one, definitive win over Triple H.

There were also other opportunities to give guys a rub that were missed completely. The most recent that I can recall being Curtis Axel. He slaps the kid down his rear, then dominates him in a match, only to have a few moves flare up his "concussion", with the match ending and Axel looking like schlub in winning by fluke.

Then there's my favorite. Randy Orton finally gains momentum going into Mania 25, hotter than he had ever been, only to job to Triple H at Mania, and never regaining that steam as a heel, and never really having that one defining victory. While Orton is to be blamed, as well as creative for being trigger happy, for his flopped push in 04, he was more than ready to win at Mania, and instead lost.

I also do not recall a legitimate, defining win for Jeff Hardy agains Triple H, either. Not saying it never happened, but the only thing I remember is a roll up victory.

Then again, he's essentially been a job machine the last few months, cleanly jobbing to DB and the Shield in consecutive PPV's, and more than likely jobbing to Roman Reigns at SS later this year.

So, like I said, good and bad. I think he's more innocent than not. He did have to carry schlubs like Goldberg, Steiner and Nash to matches nobody cared to see, while the better in ring talent was on SmackDown!, which is hard to blame him for. There were times were he should have stepped out of the way, but at the end of the day, especially recently, I think he's breaking about as close to even as a guy with his status, tenure and track record could.

Stop using job so fucking much, you sound like a moron

[drave]

1.2% of the total post involved "job" or an inflection of job. Stop being a twat.

[Damian Rey]

JOB

[cnoslim]

Triple h is great -- during the mcmahon-helmsley era was amazing. I hated the guy, but wanted to see what they were gonna do next

[road doggy dogg]

When's the last time you can recall HHH putting on a bad match? Dude is solid in the ring.

[Maluco]

When's the last time you can recall HHH putting on a bad match? Dude is solid in the ring.

This. I would go even further than solid, I think he is great in the ring and gets slack because he was too dominant for a while storyline wise and that put some people off.

Even people like Jericho (who could easily blame him for being "held down" in their feud), praises him multiple times in his book and obviously admires him...

[James Steele]

My work here is done. Goodbye, TPWW. I must now go to the WrestleCrap forums and cleanse them of their HHHate.

[hb2k]

The trial has been conducted! We read your feedback, and a judge, prosecution and defence debated Triple H for indecent overexposure and a one man conspiracy to manipulate the system to the detriment of the WWE. This show was a lot of fun, let us know what you think...

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/ay7qrj/SCGRadio6-TheTrialOfTripleH.mp3

[The MAC]

well done!
the general consensus is now "HHH sucks but slightly less that I thought" - meh, still 4/10

you know what they say about polishing a turd...

[road doggy dogg]

name a consistently better heel from 2000-2010 (nice arbitrary cut-off of the last decade)

you can't

[whiteyford]

Scott Norton.

[James Steele]

God awful show. I will never listen to this programme ever again.

[James Steele]

I heard exactly ZERO proof that HHH did anything to actively "bury" anyone.

[hb2k]

LMAO, I thought that might be your reaction.

Honestly, how would anybody prove it anyway, if somebody leaked a phone call onto YouTube? Shawn Michaels was on the phone with HHH and Vince and said it was H's idea to bury Bret. Jericho wrote in his book that he walked on HHH and Chyna burying him to Vince, does that not count? If not, then everything will always be based on the on-screen stuff with this subject, and to try and claim he had no impact on guys or made people that he really didnt is tough to argue.

But still, not based on real opinions, like it said. I don't know how much difference the guys he impacted would have really made, but they didnt argue that, they just went with straight denial.

[James Steele]

Cheap public defenders, they are.

[James Steele]

On a serious note, not bad. It wasn't as "smarky" as I thought it would be. Bret deserved to be screwed and Jericho admitted in his book that he had a bad attitude and some arrogance when he first debuted in WWF that rubbed many people the wrong way.

[hb2k]

Thank you very much, very appreciated. In many ways I really wish I got to be on the defence now, because I think it was certainly winnable. By the way, I want to know your thoughts, but given the arguments made, I thought we won the charge that we actually lost, and lost the one we actually won....

[#1-norm-fan]

Just listened to this. The reactions to James Steele's first reply here around 1:09:00 in were hilarious.

[hb2k]

Well I'm very glad you enjoyed it :-) Even if I don't hate Triple H, saying he helped make Sheamus is a step too far in defending him.

That, the Kamala joke and the Ahmed sentence were among the comedy highlights for me.

[Dukelorange]

This is good information.