"To be a great babyface, first you have to be a great heel"

[XL]

WWE have failed to create a "Top Face" every time they've tried; When was the last time WWE took a fan favourite, strapped a rocket to them, and created a new "Top Guy" or even "Top Face" and it worked?


Almost every single guy to win the title or be put in position to be the "Top Guy" got over as a heel first.


Austin, Rock, Foley, HHH, HBK, Punk, Batista, Bryan, Brock, Angle, Jericho, Eddie, Benoit, Edge, Orton, hell, even Cena got over as a heel before making the switch and becoming the "Face of the Company" - a switch that turned half the audience against him in the long run.


The only guys I can think of that was persistently a babyface, and went on to win the title were Jeff Hardy and Rey Mysterio. The exceptions that prove the rule?


Most of the guys I listed won the title as a babyface, but they got over as heels.


Is this part of what is missing with Reigns? He came in as a heel in The Shield, but he has no history as a singles guy. Is this what WWE need to do; give Reigns a run as heel and wait for him to organically get over with the fans.


With Brock seemingly on the cusp of a babyface turn, is this the best current example of this phenomenon?


Does being a heel give a character more depth? Does turning face mean more than just being a face?

[XL]

Also, if you disagree, please explain why.

[Ultra Mantis]

I don't think its necessarily true, it is a lot easier to be interesting as a heel performer but a good run as a heel doesn't always translate to a great babyface run. Miz, for example, totally shit the bed. Orton as a babyface didn't set the world on fire, regardless of the quality of his initial work on Smackdown. Face Sheamus is absolutely abysmal. I don't think a singles run as a heel would fix any of his problems as a babyface, he was always the least interesting guy in The Shield and never really developed a character outside of "stoic badass who gets the win".

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

The Miz was a great heel because he just has a face you want to punch. Not really the same thing as being a great overall heel like Roddy Piper.

[Ultra Mantis]

The Miz is generally terrible IMO, but he still counts as a "top heel" who made a shit face in the context of this thread. As a heel, crowds were joining in with his catchphrases etc. but once he turned babyface he could barely get a pop.

[Big Vic]

Some people should just stay heels (Like Miz)

I would argue that Foley got more over as a face than a heel and Chris Benoit was never really over.

[XL]

The Miz was never turned by a ground swell of support. The crux of the debate is that the crowd create WWE's top guys, they can't manufacture them.

In fact, Miz is a great example. People hated him as a heel act because there's so very little to like about him, they felt he hadn't "paid his dues" (which has also been said about Reigns). There was never a ground swell of support for Miz to turn; he went to make a movie and they reintroduced him as a face, the crowd didn't buy it because they didn't turn him. He was a manufactured face, another one that didn't work.

[Nark Order]

Hogan was consistently a babyface before his NWO run, right? He became an incredible heel, but I don't think he was ever heel before he became the biggest face in the history of mankind.

I could very well be wrong. At the very least, if he was heel before Hulkamania, you don't hear about it much.

[KIRA]

I recall John Morrison was really cool heel but as a face he just seemed lost and a little bland on the mic.
As a heel he was a douche,cocky and at times funny.

R-Truth is a dancing uninteresting somewhat stereotypical moron as a face.

He was AWESOME as a heel and the WWE was too stupid to run with it.

Yes I know I'm doing the reverse

[The Condor]

Previous character means nothing, the performer just has to e committed to be being interesting. It may be blasphemy around here, but Punk's run as a baby face from his return in spring/summer 2013 until his exit was pretty bland and "meh." He was still a tremendous performer, but he was never cut out to be a pure face, more so a rebel face, and it came off weak. Also, knowing what we know now about that period, his heart and dedication weren't into it and the entire character came off flat.

Then you have a guy like Ziggler who, even when he was saddled with no TV time, sold the hell out of what it was he was doing and is over like rover as a face now. It's all about the performers committm3nt, I think.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Hogan was consistently a babyface before his NWO run, right? He became an incredible heel, but I don't think he was ever heel before he became the biggest face in the history of mankind.

I could very well be wrong. At the very least, if he was heel before Hulkamania, you don't hear about it much.

Hulkster was once managed by Freddie Blassie. He wrestled heel in the WWE against Andre the Giant at a Showdown at Shea Stadium show.

[Nark Order]

Alright. Did he have any meaningful heel run, though? Or was it just for a few appearances here and there?

[road doggy dogg]

To be the man you gotta beat the man. WOO!

[Rammsteinmad]

CM Punk was a face for the first few years of his WWE run. He was good I suppose, but he literally went from good to fucking incredible overnight once he turned heel. Of course, after the Straight Edge Society and the Nexus he turned face again and was damn fucking amazing as a face there as well.

Although, it could be argued his face persona at that point was doing something nobody else had done before (pipebombs, insider shoots etc), which made it all the more interesting.

[Anybody Thrilla]

The Miz is generally terrible IMO, but he still counts as a "top heel" who made a shit face in the context of this thread. As a heel, crowds were joining in with his catchphrases etc. but once he turned babyface he could barely get a pop.

I still argue that those crowds were saying "AWFUL" when he said "AWESOME".

[Nark Order]

Not sure. I went to an event during his heel run and the crowd was clearly saying "Awesome." BUT every city is different. I guess Sacramento thinks he's awesome. Or just likes saying words.

[CSL]

CM Punk was a face for the first few years of his WWE run. He was good I suppose, but he literally went from good to fucking incredible overnight once he turned heel. Of course, after the Straight Edge Society and the Nexus he turned face again and was damn fucking amazing as a face there as well.

Although, it could be argued his face persona at that point was doing something nobody else had done before (pipebombs, insider shoots etc), which made it all the more interesting.

Punk was a great heel long before he got to WWE tho, he knew what he was doing

[CSL]

but either way, no. It's simply just a lot harder to be a top or even a good babyface than it is to be a heel.

[Nark Order]

but either way, no. It's simply just a lot harder to be a top or even a good babyface than it is to be a heel.

It wasn't always this way, but I am in agreement. Getting over as a face now is ridiculouslessly difficult in the internet age where everybody sees through everything. It needs to happen organically now. If there's one moment where the crowd feels like they are being spoonfed or herded in a certain direction, they turn.

[KIRA]

Sheamus is actually an okay face IMO(even tho it can be argued that he is quite the bully) and an effective heel

[whiteyford]

Its the organic part for me, there's countless examples of someone turning face and dropping every quality that made them likeable as a result, case in point Sheamus, went from getting cheers as a heel then when he turns he's pushed as the shit eating grin bland babyface and is meh, still solid matches but meh.

[Lock Jaw]

I think it helps being a heel....


I remember during Ryback's first push, I wanted him to turn heel a lot sooner than he did.... "give the fans a taste" as a face.... turn heel and be someone's "lacky" or "muscle" until the point where the fans are rabid to see him stand up for himself and turn on the heel and become a mega-face again... coming out of it even more over as a face than before....

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Ryback's gimmick should that he is a book reviewer and he gives the WWE Superstars a book to read in a month. When they try to have a debate on the book Ryback finds out they haven't read it. Ryback goes nuts and attacks the wrestlers who haven't read the book.

New Catch Phrase: Ryback Reads!

[NormanSmiley]

wrestling fans are needy. and fickle. and two faced.

[ron the dial]

you seem to be really upset about this situation. would you care to talk about what the problem really is?

[XL]

I recall John Morrison was really cool heel but as a face he just seemed lost and a little bland on the mic.
As a heel he was a douche,cocky and at times funny.

R-Truth is a dancing uninteresting somewhat stereotypical moron as a face.

He was AWESOME as a heel and the WWE was too stupid to run with it.

Yes I know I'm doing the reverse

This isn't about comparing whether people were better as heels/faces.

but either way, no. It's simply just a lot harder to be a top or even a good babyface than it is to be a heel.

Nor is it about where he it's easier to get over as heel (though there is an element of that involved in the conversation).

Hogan was consistently a babyface before his NWO run, right? He became an incredible heel, but I don't think he was ever heel before he became the biggest face in the history of mankind.

I could very well be wrong. At the very least, if he was heel before Hulkamania, you don't hear about it much.

Alright. Did he have any meaningful heel run, though? Or was it just for a few appearances here and there?

Hogan was a heel in the AWA I believe, and his first first WWE run (prior to Rocky III). Vince, Jr bought him back and launched Hulkamania.

Either way, this was 30 years ago.

[XL]

I guess what I'm trying to get at is;

To be a top, top guy (Austin, Rock, Cena) you almost have to be a heel, one who eventually gets over on in-ring credentials or an interesting character (or both), a guy that the crowd get behind and the company then push.

A heel who the fans get behind, turns face and the company then push > a face that the company strap a rocket to.

[XL]

The Rock is a great example.

He has hand-picked to be a top guy, he had heritage, he had a good look, he had charisma...and the fans chewed him up and spat him out.

He turned heel, eventually the crowd got into him as an act and the rest is history.

[Lock Jaw]

I'm going to try turning heel in real life and seeing if I can come out of it as a bigger face than ever when I turn back.

[XL]

Of course you can!

Take up a drug habit that affects your entire family, go to rehab, turn your life around, do something great for your family, bask in the glory of bouncing back from being so low.

[CSL]

I guess what I'm trying to get at is;

To be a top, top guy (Austin, Rock, Cena) you almost have to be a heel, one who eventually gets over on in-ring credentials or an interesting character (or both), a guy that the crowd get behind and the company then push.

A heel who the fans get behind, turns face and the company then push > a face that the company strap a rocket to.

Hulk Hogan was a face that had the company strap a rocket to and he's the most famous wrestler ever.

It's just much harder from a basic fundamental point of view, it doesn't matter if it's a WWE audience or a town hall audience, as a face you are a lot more limited in what you can do. It's just percentages, it just so happens that most top faces from the last 20 years have been heels in the past. The problem nowadays isn't that you have to be a great heel first, it's that guys are either too inexperienced to pull it off because they're put into the spot too quickly, things get switched around so much they just happen to have been a heel before or there aren't enough "organic" things going on. Anybody can make people dislike them, getting everybody to love you is a completely different game. Hogan, Warrior, Diesel, Bret, Jeff Hardy, Batista etc, these guys were never "great" heels before their top line babyface runs.

A guy like Finn Balor could very realistically come up onto TV and with a bit of luck find himself in a Daniel Bryan babyface top spot without 90% of WWE's audience having ever known he was once a (very good) heel because he has the tools and you just can't say that about most of the guys that come through now. If you have the tools and experience to be a top babyface, you'll be a good babyface, simple as. It doesn't matter what you've done in the past, good faces don't get cheered because fans remember their good heel work/character, only a small portion of the crowd that think that way. If you wrote a list of all the decent heel characters you can think of and all the decent face characters you can think of, the heel list would be much much longer. That should pretty much tell you everything.

[Dark One]

I guess what I'm trying to get at is;

To be a top, top guy (Austin, Rock, Cena) you almost have to be a heel, one who eventually gets over on in-ring credentials or an interesting character (or both), a guy that the crowd get behind and the company then push.

A heel who the fans get behind, turns face and the company then push > a face that the company strap a rocket to.

I think it's really a question of which option lets you build character depth that people can invest it. Austin's said it a hundred times in his podcasts when he's not talking about deer or Ted Fowler: you have more creative freedom as a heel.

Most faces are pretty much there to smile and fight for the fans, any more. Very few have much in the way of depth. Heels are generally the ones driving the action and doing things rather than reacting to things. People are going to gravitate to a performer with more character depth, because there's more to latch on to and relate to.

That's not to say that you can't have depth as a face. Daniel Bryan got decently over as a heel after a relatively mediocre initial run as a face, but it was everything after his face turn last year that really made him (even if he hasn't been booked like it a majority of the time) a top guy, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that there was actual character development going on for him as he fought and struggled against the Authority. There was something to emotionally invest in.

You don't have that with a guy like Roman Reigns, or New Day, or most of the faces on the roster. Roman Reigns is a guy that wins a lot and smiles and comes in through the crowd. There's no character to him.

Edge went from being a loner with a grin and some great performances to being a conniving manipulator who had sex with someone on live TV because fuck you that's why. That's something the crowd can get invested into hating, which makes them care about him, and gives him characteristics to carry on into his face runs that he probably couldn't have easily gotten ingrained into the gimmick if he had stayed face.

It's the same for a lot of big names.

Being a heel makes it easier to develop a character because you can theoretically do a lot more. Faces generally have to fit into a finite set of rules. It's really just a matter of how traditionally you faces get booked as reactionary foils rather than a driving force.

So, it's not 100% necessary, but it can help a hell of a lot.

[Emperor Smeat]

Most faces are pretty much there to smile and fight for the fans, any more. Very few have much in the way of depth. Heels are generally the ones driving the action and doing things rather than reacting to things. People are going to gravitate to a performer with more character depth, because there's more to latch on to and relate to.

Yeah feel like that is the biggest problem the WWE has had for years with building top faces. They either make them too bland or Cena-lite instead of being interesting like with their heels. Even Bryan was starting to feel a little Cena-lite during his Road to Mania push.

Or like in Sheamus' case, make him act worse than the actual heel he's facing at the moment.

[Destor]

Ricky steamboat

The end

[XL]

Was never "The Guy", or won the title.

[Destor]

He was and did both

[Heyman]

Austin, Rock, Foley, HHH, HBK, Punk, Batista, Bryan, Brock, Angle, Jericho, Eddie, Benoit, Edge, Orton, hell, even Cena got over as a heel before making the switch and becoming the "Face of the Company" - a switch that turned half the audience against him in the long run.





You pretty much nailed it.


I think the WWE's biggest problem from 2001-present day, is that they alter the character of the wrestler way too much whenever said successful heel transitions into a face.


One thing that made Austin and Rocky TREMENDOUS, was the fact that even when they both turned face, they still maintained their heelish persona's for a significant time and the fans ate them up.


Undertaker's character has withstood the test of time, largely due to the fact that his character/personality pretty much stays the same whether he's a heel or a face. He's a badass either way.




The very worst thing that I ever saw as a WWE fan, was how the WWE handled Orton's premature face turn in 2004. Lesnar's premature face turn in 2002 is also one of the dumbest most ill-advised moves that I ever saw.

[Fignuts]

Said this a billion times since they started shoving Reigns down everyone's throats. In this day and age, you can't "make" a top guy. Austin, Rock, and Cena all progressed to their position naturally, getting over on their own merits. Hogan was put right at the top, and it worked, but that was a different time, and a different audience.

[Damian Rey]

It was also a one time fix. Every top guy after him got over naturally and eventually transitioned into a top face.

[Destor]

Was never "The Guy", or won the title.

I seriously cant get over this post

[XL]

Ricky Steamboat was "The Guy" that lead the WWE? The "marquee name"? Was WWE champion?

Must have been between 95 and 98 when I wasn't watching.

[Blonde Moment]

I think it is harder to be a face in today's wrestling because the up and comers simply do not have the same opportunity to learn the craft the same way the old schoolers did. The wrestlers that are succeeding right now despite the higher ups themselves are the ones that have experience in other promotions or have been in the company for YEARS.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think it helps being a heel....


I remember during Ryback's first push, I wanted him to turn heel a lot sooner than he did.... "give the fans a taste" as a face.... turn heel and be someone's "lacky" or "muscle" until the point where the fans are rabid to see him stand up for himself and turn on the heel and become a mega-face again... coming out of it even more over as a face than before....

This is exactly what I wanted to see happen. Ryback would have been great as Punk's muscle back in 2012.

[Lock Jaw]

The Batista effect.... being Triple H's lacky and then standing up to him.... made him a star....

[Mr. Nerfect]

It worked for Alex freakin' Riley too. And it's working for Sandow now. It's a pretty simple formula.

[Lock Jaw]

Remember when the fans were rabid for Ted DiBiase to turn against Randy Orton?

[James Steele]

Ricky Steamboat was "The Guy" that lead the WWE? The "marquee name"? Was WWE champion?

Must have been between 95 and 98 when I wasn't watching.

He was already retired by 95. He was the top babyface of the NWA in the late 80s and early 90s. Y'know, just the most famous world title matches ever against Flair?

[Destor]

Ricky Steamboat was "The Guy" that lead the WWE? The "marquee name"? Was WWE champion?

Must have been between 95 and 98 when I wasn't watching.you have been brainwashed

When he was working the top belt wasnt in vinces company

[XL]

WWE have failed to create a "Top Face" every time they've tried; When was the last time WWE took a fan favourite, strapped a rocket to them, and created a new "Top Guy" or even "Top Face" and it worked?

Twice in the opening paragraph I specifically referenced WWE.

I also stated there were exceptions (Hardy, Rey), Steamboat is one of them.

I'm not even saying the statement is right, it was just something I was considering in the arena of "Why hasn't Reigns connected?"

[XL]

I think it is harder to be a face in today's wrestling because the up and comers simply do not have the same opportunity to learn the craft the same way the old schoolers did. The wrestlers that are succeeding right now despite the higher ups themselves are the ones that have experience in other promotions or have been in the company for YEARS.

And this is one of the other facets I looked at; "Paying your dues".

Austin has made a big deal of the audience not feeling Reigns has "paid his dues in the ring", is this something the audience consider? Is it a more subconscious consideration?

[Asmo]

I'd disagree with the face/heel dynamic. But it is, in a way, about 'paying dues'.

We haven't had any character development for Reigns. He was the muscle of the Shield, who never said anything beyond 'Believe That'. And i honestly don't recall any serious storyline that's made me give two shits about him in his current singles run. We haven't had enough time with him as fans, and he hasn't wowed most of us with what he's got at the moment.

Maybe it's poor booking. Maybe the guy is still green. He needs time. Write a decent character that he can effectively portray. Pit him against someone who will make him look great, not just in the ring, but otherwise as well. Give him time to mature. Doesn't matter if he's face or heel. Get him to do something that we can sink our teeth into.

[Nicky Fives]

I'm sure it helps most, but some people are just likeable and have it easy..... see: Ricky Steamboat

[Destor]

Twice in the opening paragraph I specifically referenced WWE.

I also stated there were exceptions (Hardy, Rey), Steamboat is one of them.

I'm not even saying the statement is right, it was just something I was considering in the arena of "Why hasn't Reigns connected?"

The face heel dynamic has nothing to with the wwe no matter what your opening paragraph states though, amd as far as exceptions go your thread is desling in absolutes so the answer is no. Emphatically even.

[Destor]

The reality is it isnt being a heel first that helps its that good workers can do both.

"Ricky Steamboat is the greatest baby face of all time, hes not the greatest worker of all time though. I am, ricky couldn't work heel." -Rick Flair