The thread where we get CyNick to defend maligned storylines, and tell us how we don't understand...

[Nark Order]

I hear you, I just don't think it's s big issue. Like I said, the angle did no damage to Booker. He is who he is, he is a upper mid card guy. To me he in no way deserved to beat Hunter, no matter what the storyline.

If Booker's career would have been ruined by not rising up for black people, I would understand the criticism. But that didn't happen, he went on to become even more popular. So I would say WWE did the right thing with .

Dude. Hunter disparraged him for being black and insinuated that he would never win the WWE Championship because he is black. Then Triple H beat him and Booker T indeed never won the WWE Championship. What aren't you getting about how ridiculous and fucked up that is? I mean, it is insane to the point of being comical.

I'm not saying he would have been the greatest of all time and that he NEEDED to win under all circumstances. But if you are going to turn the storyline racial and have Triple H claim that Booker is a lesser talent because of his skin color (which he did do), then Triple H winning is reinforcing the point of white racial superiority. There's no real way around that. That is essentially what they did. It was such an odd and fairly insulting way for a WM match to end.

And there is no argument. It was racially charged. He meant "you people" as black people. Him backtracking and saying he was referring to WCW guys is absurd. He handed him a dollar. Why would he possibly do that if it was meant to be about people in WCW? There was most definitely racial and socioeconomic undertones. (I dont think youre denying it, it was just brought up earlier)

[Nark Order]

I'll give you guys credit, you guys are amazing at ignoring facts that disprove your theory.

Hunter lost key/big matches such as Mania 20, 21 and 22. This is during the period you guys are talking about where he supposedly never lost. Every year he lost the BIG MATCH, usually at Mania.

SEPARATE FROM THAT he lost key matches to Goldberg. You're right, he didn't win the clusterf match at Summerslam where everyone would have accused him of dropping the strap in a multi person match vs losing it one on one. He then went on the next TWO PPVs including a "key" PPV called Survivor Series and put over Goldy in the middle. Goldberg proved he wasn't in it for the long haul, so they put the belt back on Hunter, but didnt even do it one on one. Hunter then went on to put over Benoit for the next 6 months, including the biggest match to that point at Mania.

Now, let's explore the issue of the impact of Goldberg not winning at Summerslam. I believe it was our good friend Noid who said WWE lost like 500k viewers or something. I don't know if that's true, but I'll take his word for it. In 2000, Rock was in a similar position, he won the belt a month after the big match, and business didn't collapse. It causes me to pause and ask what was the difference? The obvious answer to me is Rock was far superior to Goldberg, and Goldberg would have never worked long term because he's so limited. But that's a point of opinion, I concede.

I also never said Hunter and Seth were booked EXACTLY the same. I just pointed out some similarities. The narrative on these parts in Rollins lost "all the time", which is BS. My line about heels winning all the time doesn't apply to Hunter, because as I've pointed out numerous times, in every year he was champion, he lost to the challenger in that year. 2000 it was Rock, 03 is it was Goldberg, 04 it was Benoit, 05 it was Batista, 06 it was Cena. But ya'll want to ignore all that.

He lost matches once his spot was absolutely secure and there was no chance of him ever losing it to anybody. I don't argue that Triple H is a shithead overall, especially due to some of the stuff he's doing now. Although, I think it is more than clear that when he was coming up, he was a very involved backstage politician and did some sneaky shit to get to where he is. He was constantly in the bookers ears and getting things done the way he wanted them. He would disparrage guys behind their backs to management. Every thing you could do to secure a spot, he did. I'm not going to get into the Stephanie wormhole but that happened shortly after Shawn left, which is the time where he needed new coattails to hold on to. I'm not saying that he did it intentionally, but if he were to make an intentional move to move up in the company and secure your spot, there isn't a better one to make.

[hb2k]

Also, that entire point is utterly tone deaf, as by your own admission that the man in the big match every year is Triple H. Meaning that even if he loses, he keeps his position.

The point shouldn't be that he didn't lose, losing is just the easiest indicator of the wider point - he didn't elevate anybody beyond Batista and never got out of the fucking way despite numbers showing there's an issue with basing things around him.

[The CyNick]

OOo I got one more Cynick, defend the amazingly unnecessary pile of shit that was Barack vs Hilary.

I don't even remember that. Sounds awful.

[The CyNick]

I have a few more things for Cynick


1.Is there anytime you ever thought Vince missed the boat on a wrestler it seems like you think WWE can do no wrong.

2. What was the point of bringing in Sting literally the last soldier of WCW and Jobbing him?

3.WWE not pushing Dolph to the moon after Survivor Series what sense did it make to give him such a ridiculously strong showing and then drop it?

1. This is an example of not reading everything I write (which BTW you should). I've stated on numerous occasions there were things I didn't like. Reid Flair angle was a recent example.

2. Sting served his purpose. Long term money was building up a match between Hunter and Rollins. Having Hunter lose to someone like Sting would have hurt the money match. This is similar to the Booker discussion, where clearly Booker wasn't the right type of guy to go over HHH. A guy like Goldberg made more sense, which they did.

3. I don't remember the specifics around Dolph. I know he says a lot of dumb stuff online. Maybe he stepped out of line and needed to be put in check.

[The CyNick]

I've got a good one for CyNick to explain.

Sean O'Haire.

I dunno, he sucked. What's there to explain?

[The CyNick]

CyNick is not amazing. He's a bearded woman that walked out of a car crash. This fascination with his horse shit will tire out very soon and he will disappear again.

Of course I will disappear at some point. I'm a part time player. My value is in limited appearances where I headline, then go away for a bit.

When I leave you guys can go back to agreeing how everything stinks and have no activity on the board.

[The CyNick]

Dude. Hunter disparraged him for being black and insinuated that he would never win the WWE Championship because he is black. Then Triple H beat him and Booker T indeed never won the WWE Championship. What aren't you getting about how ridiculous and fucked up that is? I mean, it is insane to the point of being comical.

I'm not saying he would have been the greatest of all time and that he NEEDED to win under all circumstances. But if you are going to turn the storyline racial and have Triple H claim that Booker is a lesser talent because of his skin color (which he did do), then Triple H winning is reinforcing the point of white racial superiority. There's no real way around that. That is essentially what they did. It was such an odd and fairly insulting way for a WM match to end.

And there is no argument. It was racially charged. He meant "you people" as black people. Him backtracking and saying he was referring to WCW guys is absurd. He handed him a dollar. Why would he possibly do that if it was meant to be about people in WCW? There was most definitely racial and socioeconomic undertones. (I dont think youre denying it, it was just brought up earlier)

Its not rediculous because a guy like Booker is inferior to a guy like Hunter. I personally don't like including race in an angle, but WWE did. Doesn't mean you need to change the direction. Money was in Hunter being built up with Evolution for Goldberg to conquer. Which is what happened. If Booker would have won, you lessen the impact of Goldberg's win.

Like I said before. If Booker's loss was such a big deal, why did he still go on to have success? You would think the fans would just give up on him and he would be out of the WWE within 6 months. He ended fine from the loss. This issue is something created by the IWC, it's not a real issue.

I don't know why you're hammering home the race point, I never disputed the feud had race as a tie in. Just saying I don't think you put over Booker just because he's the colored guy in the feud.

[Shadrick]

Its not rediculous because a guy like Booker is inferior to a guy like Hunter. I personally don't like including race in an angle, but WWE did. Doesn't mean you need to change the direction. Money was in Hunter being built up with Evolution for Goldberg to conquer. Which is what happened. If Booker would have won, you lessen the impact of Goldberg's win.

Like I said before. If Booker's loss was such a big deal, why did he still go on to have success? You would think the fans would just give up on him and he would be out of the WWE within 6 months. He ended fine from the loss. This issue is something created by the IWC, it's not a real issue.

I don't know why you're hammering home the race point, I never disputed the feud had race as a tie in. Just saying I don't think you put over Booker just because he's the colored guy in the feud.

I think you're listening to people to respond, and not to understand. This reply right here is a really big example.

[The CyNick]

He lost matches once his spot was absolutely secure and there was no chance of him ever losing it to anybody. I don't argue that Triple H is a shithead overall, especially due to some of the stuff he's doing now. Although, I think it is more than clear that when he was coming up, he was a very involved backstage politician and did some sneaky shit to get to where he is. He was constantly in the bookers ears and getting things done the way he wanted them. He would disparrage guys behind their backs to management. Every thing you could do to secure a spot, he did. I'm not going to get into the Stephanie wormhole but that happened shortly after Shawn left, which is the time where he needed new coattails to hold on to. I'm not saying that he did it intentionally, but if he were to make an intentional move to move up in the company and secure your spot, there isn't a better one to make.

Sneaky shit? Care to elaborate with some facts or evidence? Or are we just throwing out random BS?

According to Hunter, Vince asked him to help out with creative long before Steph was in the picture. So if doing what the boss asks is sneaky, well call me sneaky too.

When he got the title, he's going to have say over some things, or more accurately imput. But that's no different than any top guy. The fact is, 2003 was about putting over Goldberg NOT Booker T. HHH put over Goldberg many times, including dropping the strap to him and losing rematches. In 2004 he put over Benoit the same way. In 2005 it was Batista. In 2006 it was Cena. All of those guys owe him a huge debt a gratitude for taking his heat and using it to help establish them. How far they were able to take it after he did his job is on them, has nothing to do with Hunter.

[The CyNick]

Also, that entire point is utterly tone deaf, as by your own admission that the man in the big match every year is Triple H. Meaning that even if he loses, he keeps his position.

The point shouldn't be that he didn't lose, losing is just the easiest indicator of the wider point - he didn't elevate anybody beyond Batista and never got out of the fucking way despite numbers showing there's an issue with basing things around him.

Batman needs a Joker in good vs evil

Nobody was able to take his spot as the top heel. His job was to make the top babyface look good. He did that year after year after year after year.

If no heels were able to elevate their game to pass HHH, well that's on them. In each case, I can't think of a better person to be in Hunter's position. He's truly the most underrated person in the history of WWE for all the good he did. No other top guy made as many guys as Hunter.

Which numbers are you referring to? I'm sure as a podcast host you will need to contact one of the higher ups in the IWC for some facts, but once you get them, please share.

[The CyNick]

I think you're listening to people to respond, and not to understand. This reply right here is a really big example.

No its not. I responded to everything he brought up.

[Simple Fan]

2. Sting served his purpose. Long term money was building up a match between Hunter and Rollins. Having Hunter lose to someone like Sting would have hurt the money match. This is similar to the Booker discussion, where clearly Booker wasn't the right type of guy to go over HHH. A guy like Goldberg made more sense, which they did.

Now you just sound dumb. There is more money in Sting than Booker and Goldberg combined. Explain how Sting beating Hunter hurts the money match. If the money match was Rollins, a Sting win at Mania would have made more sense to have Sting built up for Rollins.

[Simple Fan]

Also Sting beating HHH wouldn't hurt HHH at all. Sting is one of the greatest of all time. Beter than HHH to. Hunter could have given one promo and been right back where he was. WWE has wasted Sting and made his decision not to sign with WWE years ago a smart one. Just wish he would have stayed away from WWE if they weren't going to use him right.

[The CyNick]

Now you just sound dumb. There is more money in Sting than Booker and Goldberg combined. Explain how Sting beating Hunter hurts the money match. If the money match was Rollins, a Sting win at Mania would have made more sense to have Sting built up for Rollins.

Its actually more than just a match with Rollins. Hunter will likely be called upon to be a special attraction on special events for years. You can't just have him lose to every guy who comes available. I would rather see Hunter beat Sting to keep an aura and then lose to guys like Rollins or Reigns or Cesaro.

[The CyNick]

Also Sting beating HHH wouldn't hurt HHH at all. Sting is one of the greatest of all time. Beter than HHH to. Hunter could have given one promo and been right back where he was. WWE has wasted Sting and made his decision not to sign with WWE years ago a smart one. Just wish he would have stayed away from WWE if they weren't going to use him right.

Lol Sting is way below HHH in terms of all time greats. Come on now.

Look I get you are partial to Sting, so it's tough to have a rational discussion about his spot. Sting at best was going to work 3-4 matches. Even in his debut, he wasnt over like some of the huge stars (Rock, Austin, etc), so why waste a win over HHH on a guy like that?

[Vastardikai]

Also Sting beating HHH wouldn't hurt HHH at all. Sting is one of the greatest of all time. Beter than HHH to. Hunter could have given one promo and been right back where he was. WWE has wasted Sting and made his decision not to sign with WWE years ago a smart one. Just wish he would have stayed away from WWE if they weren't going to use him right.

I wasn't angry at HHH for this. He could have said no, but this was one last chance for Vince to say "Fuck you, WCW! I won!" It was incredibly pathetic, if you ask me. The commentary pissed me off the most.

[CSL]

2. Sting served his purpose. Long term money was building up a match between Hunter and Rollins. Having Hunter lose to someone like Sting would have hurt the money match.

u wot m8

Its not rediculous because a guy like Booker is inferior to a guy like Hunter. I personally don't like including race in an angle, but WWE did. Doesn't mean you need to change the direction. Money was in Hunter being built up with Evolution for Goldberg to conquer. Which is what happened. If Booker would have won, you lessen the impact of Goldberg's win.

only they did change direction because all throughout the build, Booker was scheduled to go over until Hunter got the kibosh put on it not long before Mania. And Goldberg hadn't even signed a deal, let alone debuted when they started building towards WM 19.

[Vastardikai]

Lol Sting is way below HHH in terms of all time greats. Come on now.

SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH!!!

[DAMN iNATOR]

Sting is better than Triple H...maybe not by a ton, but enough so that him beating Triple H wouldn't have hurt Triple H.

And you have no room to talk about people being partial to anybody or anything, since you're EXTREMELY partial and biased towards WWE. Bet that's why you think Trips is so much better than Sting: he's WWF/WWE, Sting was WCW.

[The CyNick]

u wot m8



only they did change direction because all throughout the build, Booker was scheduled to go over until Hunter got the kibosh put on it not long before Mania. And Goldberg hadn't even signed a deal, let alone debuted when they started building towards WM 19.

Didn't Goldberg debut right after Mania?

Even if it's true that Booker was set to go over at Mania (would be good if you had a quote from Vince to back up this claim), perhaps when they learned Goldberg would be signed, it changed the booking for Mania. Which would make perfect sense because Booker isn't on the level of Goldberg in terms of star power. So you should build to the bigger match.

[The CyNick]

I wasn't angry at HHH for this. He could have said no, but this was one last chance for Vince to say "Fuck you, WCW! I won!" It was incredibly pathetic, if you ask me. The commentary pissed me off the most.

How do you know that was the motivation behind the booking?

If Sting going over was the right call for business, why would Vince turn down that money?

[The CyNick]

Sting is better than Triple H...maybe not by a ton, but enough so that him beating Triple H wouldn't have hurt Triple H.

And you have no room to talk about people being partial to anybody or anything, since you're EXTREMELY partial and biased towards WWE. Bet that's why you think Trips is so much better than Sting: he's WWF/WWE, Sting was WCW.

I just think Trips had a bigger impact and drew more money. A lot more.

[Vastardikai]

How do you know that was the motivation behind the booking?

If Sting going over was the right call for business, why would Vince turn down that money?

You overestimate his business acumen and underestimate his inferiority complex.

[Simple Fan]

How do you know that was the motivation behind the booking?

If Sting going over was the right call for business, why would Vince turn down that money?

If Sting wins fans get behind him and buy mask, shirts and other merchandise. HHH is not going to seel anymore than what he has for years. Vince has money and doesnt worry about making the max dollar on guys he didnt create.

[Simple Fan]

Lol Sting is way below HHH in terms of all time greats. Come on now.

Sting will always be better than HHH as far as all time greats go. I wouldn't even put Hunter in the top 5. Come on now.

[Simple Fan]

Lol Sting is way below HHH in terms of all time greats. Come on now.

Look I get you are partial to Sting, so it's tough to have a rational discussion about his spot. Sting at best was going to work 3-4 matches. Even in his debut, he wasnt over like some of the huge stars (Rock, Austin, etc), so why waste a win over HHH on a guy like that?

I dont think you even know anything about Sting other than his WWE appearances. Sting was winning World Heavyweight Championship while HHH was still terror rising.

[DAMN iNATOR]

I just think Trips had a bigger impact and drew more money. A lot more.

And I'm telling you, you think wrong.

[Maluco]

I love Triple H, but there is no way you are critiquing certain people for not having quotes or stats to back up some of their arguments, when surely you have made the same error with that statement.

There is absolutely no way to prove that Hunter made more money than Sting. There were very view events where Hunter was the main attraction (and by that I mean the reason the majority bought their ticket) and it would be impossible to count the money he made.

Same with Sting, but he was doing great business when Hunter was a jobber on his show. He did amazing business just by sitting in the rafters and watching matches. Sting is iconic and the face of WCW. If your opinion is that Hunter drew more due to his position and big matches, that's fine, but there is no way you can say he drew a lot more than Sting.

Sting is iconic and comfortably top 10 in GOAT debate, Hunter isn't IMO.

[Simple Fan]

Sting has been face most his career while HHH has been a heel most of his. I'm sure Sting made more money from selling merchandise and being the face at the top of the card. But I could be wrong, is that how the business works CyNick?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

My opinion Os that Barry hrowitz is better than the rock

[KIRA]

2. Sting served his purpose. Long term money was building up a match between Hunter and Rollins. Having Hunter lose to someone like Sting would have hurt the money match. This is similar to the Booker discussion, where clearly Booker wasn't the right type of guy to go over HHH. A guy like Goldberg made more sense, which they did.




First Booker T isn't the right guy now Sting FREAKING STING isn't the right guy.

[The CyNick]

You overestimate his business acumen and underestimate his inferiority complex.

You know this how? You read it online? Have you ever talked to the man?

[The CyNick]

And I'm telling you, you think wrong.

Buyrates HHH dummies

House show revenue HHH dummies

Merchandise HHH dummies

Number of all time great moments and matches HHH dummies

Curious where you think Sting has HHH beat. Most TNA matches?

[The CyNick]

I love Triple H, but there is no way you are critiquing certain people for not having quotes or stats to back up some of their arguments, when surely you have made the same error with that statement.

There is absolutely no way to prove that Hunter made more money than Sting. There were very view events where Hunter was the main attraction (and by that I mean the reason the majority bought their ticket) and it would be impossible to count the money he made.

Same with Sting, but he was doing great business when Hunter was a jobber on his show. He did amazing business just by sitting in the rafters and watching matches. Sting is iconic and the face of WCW. If your opinion is that Hunter drew more due to his position and big matches, that's fine, but there is no way you can say he drew a lot more than Sting.

Sting is iconic and comfortably top 10 in GOAT debate, Hunter isn't IMO.

Sting in the rafters was the only period you could argue he made huge money for the company. Until Goldberg came along, he was the #1 face in WCW, without working. An amazing feat.

However, HHH has worked near or at the top of the card for call it 10+ Wrestlemanias, many of those were 60k+ fans in attendance. Sting headlined ONE PPV that did massive business, without looking I would say HHH probably was a key draw in 10+ PPVs that did way more than that, many doing in the million range.

HHH headlined with Austin and Rock on house show runs. I dont know what those did in terms of dollars, but no way Sting had a better run than that.

Business wise, I dont even think its close to be honest.

[The CyNick]

I dont think you even know anything about Sting other than his WWE appearances. Sting was winning World Heavyweight Championship while HHH was still terror rising.

White Castle of Fear. That is my response to that.

[The CyNick]

If Sting wins fans get behind him and buy mask, shirts and other merchandise. HHH is not going to seel anymore than what he has for years. Vince has money and doesnt worry about making the max dollar on guys he didnt create.

The only people who would be looking to buy Sting masks are likely now in their 30s or 40s. So I'm guessing sales would be minimal. Hard to imagine a new flock of kids seeing 50+ year old Sting and saying "thats my guy".

Gotta let go of your childhood hero man.

[Damian Rey]

Buyrates HHH dummies

House show revenue HHH dummies

Merchandise HHH dummies

Number of all time great moments and matches HHH dummies

Curious where you think Sting has HHH beat. Most TNA matches?

Do you have actual numbers to back up these claims? I'm not debating with whether or not they're true. Just curious if there's factual evidence to support this.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Buyrates HHH dummies

House show revenue HHH dummies

Merchandise HHH dummies

Number of all time great moments and matches HHH dummies

Curious where you think Sting has HHH beat. Most TNA matches?

Overall career quality. I guess you've never considered that Sting EARNED the right to be called "The Icon".

[KIRA]

I've said it before and I'll say it again It does not matter how many times Triple H has been champ and as bad as the WWE would love for us to think so no matter how many DVDs they put out proclaimng how great he is, HHH is NOT ON THE SAME LEVEL as Taker,Austin,Rock,HBK or Sting. there is a reason no one was clamoring to see Taker V Triple H at mania there is a reason People regarded Sting v Taker as a dream match.

I know it hurts but its true He's second banana at best 3rd tier support character at worst.

[Simple Fan]

The only people who would be looking to buy Sting masks are likely now in their 30s or 40s. So I'm guessing sales would be minimal. Hard to imagine a new flock of kids seeing 50+ year old Sting and saying "thats my guy".

Gotta let go of your childhood hero man.

Kids don't root for 50 year olds? OK here's where I have a problem with your logic. You say the program is tailored to the kids but WWE can't build up an Icon in this business good eneogh to sell Sting mask to kids. Kids will still root for Sting today and if they dont that just goes to show you how bad HHH did in their program. I suppose kids weren't cheering Undertaker any during Undertaker week seeing how old he is and all.

[KIRA]

Kids don't root for 50 year olds? OK here's where I have a problem with your logic. You say the program is tailored to the kids but WWE can't build up an Icon in this business good eneogh to sell Sting mask to kids. Kids will still root for Sting today and if they dont that just goes to show you how bad HHH did in their program. I suppose kids weren't cheering Undertaker any during Undertaker week seeing how old he is and all.

My youngest nephew is about 9 and (through no fault of mine) he is IN LOVE with UT to the point where we have to get him everything taker related his mom got the WWE network because he asked for more Taker.

Shit there's a video of a special needs child who requested to meet Taker.

[The CyNick]

My youngest nephew is about 9 and (through no fault of mine) he is IN LOVE with UT to the point where we have to get him everything taker related his mom got the WWE network because he asked for more Taker.

Shit there's a video of a special needs child who requested to meet Taker.

You're not seriously comparing Sting to Taker are you? Taker has a legacy in the company that's lasted over a quarter century. Sting is not at a point where he can build such a legacy in WWE. He's gotta live off what people remember. I'm guessing a 9 year old doesn't remember Sting's WCW run.

[The CyNick]

Kids don't root for 50 year olds? OK here's where I have a problem with your logic. You say the program is tailored to the kids but WWE can't build up an Icon in this business good eneogh to sell Sting mask to kids. Kids will still root for Sting today and if they dont that just goes to show you how bad HHH did in their program. I suppose kids weren't cheering Undertaker any during Undertaker week seeing how old he is and all.

I don't think Sting is good enough at this stage of his career to justify pushing him to the point you would need to to get little kids behind him. And if they did, watch how quickly people on here would "lol wwe they are pushing a 50 year old over Kevin Owens"

[Maluco]

Sting in the rafters was the only period you could argue he made huge money for the company. Until Goldberg came along, he was the #1 face in WCW, without working. An amazing feat.

However, HHH has worked near or at the top of the card for call it 10+ Wrestlemanias, many of those were 60k+ fans in attendance. Sting headlined ONE PPV that did massive business, without looking I would say HHH probably was a key draw in 10+ PPVs that did way more than that, many doing in the million range.

HHH headlined with Austin and Rock on house show runs. I dont know what those did in terms of dollars, but no way Sting had a better run than that.

Business wise, I dont even think its close to be honest.

HHH was at those events and main evented many, but I just wonder how many people bought their tickets to see HHH, or even to see HHH get his comeuppance. He was a supporting star and I don't think you could argue that he sold tickets on his own.

Sting sold tickets on his name alone across quite a wide generation, people of all ages came to see Sting. I think that is the difference.

In saying that, I wouldn't use him at all now because I feel his time has passed and totally agree with you on that point.

Triple H drawing a lot more than Sting is dubious though.

[Simple Fan]

You're not seriously comparing Sting to Taker are you? Taker has a legacy in the company that's lasted over a quarter century. Sting is not at a point where he can build such a legacy in WWE. He's gotta live off what people remember. I'm guessing a 9 year old doesn't remember Sting's WCW run.

I don't think Sting is good enough at this stage of his career to justify pushing him to the point you would need to to get little kids behind him. And if they did, watch how quickly people on here would "lol wwe they are pushing a 50 year old over Kevin Owens"

Yeah Sting and Taker a very comparable, they both have legacys. My point is WWE hasnt capitalized on Stings and have left money off the table. Stings and kids go hand and hand with each other. Kids are smarter than you make them out to be. Sting doesnt have to be pushed to the moon. Why sign him if he didn't justify the selling some merchandise to kids. Like said its WWE and Vince's job to tell Stings story but all they did was stick to killing WCW again. HHH/Sting shouldn't have been anything about WCW but that's what they made it. The only time they used Sting right was the build to Night of Champions as he was playing mind games and messing with Rollins. Sting should have came in and had a big win to build him up and then been used to put talent over. I have no problem with Sting doing the job to Rollins but Rollins had just lost a match to Cena that made Sting look even weaker and did nothing for Rollins.

[KIRA]

You're not seriously comparing Sting to Taker are you? Taker has a legacy in the company that's lasted over a quarter century. Sting is not at a point where he can build such a legacy in WWE. He's gotta live off what people remember. I'm guessing a 9 year old doesn't remember Sting's WCW run.

My point is that age doesn't factor in kids like who they like.

For myself I discovered I liked Piper as a kid I knew nothing of his previous work before showed up to challenge Hollywood hogan and by then Piper was no where near the worker he was.

You really think kids have to have an extensive knowledge of a wrestlers body of work in order to like them?

[James Steele]

I have paid to see Triple H.

[The CyNick]

I have paid to see Triple H.

I have paid to see Triple H

[Maluco]

There's a shocker :D

[The CyNick]

My point is that age doesn't factor in kids like who they like.

For myself I discovered I liked Piper as a kid I knew nothing of his previous work before showed up to challenge Hollywood hogan and by then Piper was no where near the worker he was.

You really think kids have to have an extensive knowledge of a wrestlers body of work in order to like them?

No I just don't think a kid would look at Sting and get behind him, because just about everyone on the roster moves better than him. If they wanted to cheer for a face painter, they would cheer for Balor.

People who were fans of Sting want to see him win because of his legacy, but when you factor in his age and how little he will work, I don't see who on the roster you put him against that would have a big match feel and be willing to put him over. Maybe a guy like Jericho as a one off, but putting him over multiple guys makes no sense to me.

[The CyNick]

HHH was at those events and main evented many, but I just wonder how many people bought their tickets to see HHH, or even to see HHH get his comeuppance. He was a supporting star and I don't think you could argue that he sold tickets on his own.

Sting sold tickets on his name alone across quite a wide generation, people of all ages came to see Sting. I think that is the difference.

In saying that, I wouldn't use him at all now because I feel his time has passed and totally agree with you on that point.

Triple H drawing a lot more than Sting is dubious though.

Bischoff said he shut down most of WCWs touring when he started. That would have been when Sting was one of the top guys in WCW.

Sting's real drawing period was the height of the NWO. So at best he would be sharing those numbers with them. And compared to Hunter's run on top, it was a short period of time.

Figuring out a star's drawing ability is murky at best, but like I said, I just don't see it as being close.

[Simple Fan]

No I just don't think a kid would look at Sting and get behind him, because just about everyone on the roster moves better than him. If they wanted to cheer for a face painter, they would cheer for Balor.

People who were fans of Sting want to see him win because of his legacy, but when you factor in his age and how little he will work, I don't see who on the roster you put him against that would have a big match feel and be willing to put him over. Maybe a guy like Jericho as a one off, but putting him over multiple guys makes no sense to me.

You don't have to have him go over multiple guys. He should have had won against HHH to build him then have him put over younger talent. Sting could have great programs with guys like Stardust, Wyatt, and Cesaro to put them over. A kid takes one look at Sting and thinks he is cool, their not going to notice his speed. For you to say kids wont get behind Sting is just dumb.Its sad when TNA books Sting better on his way out than WWE has so far.

[The CyNick]

You don't have to have him go over multiple guys. He should have had won against HHH to build him then have him put over younger talent. Sting could have great programs with guys like Stardust, Wyatt, and Cesaro to put them over. A kid takes one look at Sting and thinks he is cool, their not going to notice his speed. For you to say kids wont get behind Sting is just dumb.Its sad when TNA books Sting better on his way out than WWE has so far.

Anyone but Hunter

I get it now.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Anyone but Hunter

I get it now.

lol oh stuff it. Does Hunter really need it? He's the frigging COO of the company. Come on. Sting with a BIG win over HHH could put over a big talent. If Sting had beaten HHH and lost to Rollins, the win has about a bajillion times more meaning, as opposed to a win in a filler ppv nobody will remember.

Use your head CyNick.

[Vastardikai]

You know this how? You read it online? Have you ever talked to the man?

I heard it from a number of sources, including Corny, who actually, you know, WORKED for the guy.

Also, inferiority complex can easily explain the XFL, WBF, WWE studios, etc. He is ashamed to be in the business, and tries to prove himself the head of a media empire.

Also, inferiority complex can why he frames the Monday Night Wars as Vince vs. Turner, when in reality it was Vince vs. Bischoff. Turner didn't even have Vince on his radar. He couldn't see himself getting upstaged by Verne Gagne's coffee go-fer.

Hell, look up the McMyth's podcast HB2K (iirc) posted that was filled with his delusions.

[The CyNick]

lol oh stuff it. Does Hunter really need it? He's the frigging COO of the company. Come on. Sting with a BIG win over HHH could put over a big talent. If Sting had beaten HHH and lost to Rollins, the win has about a bajillion times more meaning, as opposed to a win in a filler ppv nobody will remember.

Use your head CyNick.

I honestly dont understand why this is an issue.

They had a larger story they were telling that was more important than Sting. That was HHH being the over achieving father figure to Rollins, who sets the bar really high. If you notice, Seth was starting to pass all the "tests". Then when he failed against Roman, you would have had HHH rip into Seth, and Seth would have stood up to HHH to prove he's the man. You cant play out that story if HHH loses to a 50 year old man who has no history in the company.

[The CyNick]

I heard it from a number of sources, including Corny, who actually, you know, WORKED for the guy.

Also, inferiority complex can easily explain the XFL, WBF, WWE studios, etc. He is ashamed to be in the business, and tries to prove himself the head of a media empire.

Also, inferiority complex can why he frames the Monday Night Wars as Vince vs. Turner, when in reality it was Vince vs. Bischoff. Turner didn't even have Vince on his radar. He couldn't see himself getting upstaged by Verne Gagne's coffee go-fer.

Hell, look up the McMyth's podcast HB2K (iirc) posted that was filled with his delusions.

I believe Cornette made statements giving his opinion on Vince making decisions that he didnt agree with, and therefore made the correlation that Vince makes decisions that are not best for business.

LOL. He's tried on multiple occasions to EXPAND his business to other forms of entertainment. Admittedly those were failures, but it doesn't mean he's ashamed of the sports entertainment indutry, hell, he invented it as we know it.

If it wasnt Turner vs Vince, why did Turner call Vince to tell him he was in the "wrasslin" business? Saying it was Eric vs Vince is an insult to Vince, because Eric didnt own WCW. I dont know if you have ever owned a company, but when you are putting everything on the line, its different than some guy who is just drawing a paycheque. Now, on Ted's side, WCW was a small portion of his overall empire, whereas for Vince it was his everything. Which is probably why Vince ultimately won.

Sorry, Mcmyths? I have no idea who that is, and I certainly have no idea what type of connection they have to Vince to know if they are just another parrot of the Dirt Sheets or actually have some useful information to share.

[Simple Fan]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMZdk4l_aHZcMhWs-Fr_INT0wsao_7JzT45JxnSRnzN2ZEQupfkQ

[The CyNick]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMZdk4l_aHZcMhWs-Fr_INT0wsao_7JzT45JxnSRnzN2ZEQupfkQ

There were only so many of these, you will run out quickly.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I

Sorry, Mcmyths? I have no idea who that is, and I certainly have no idea what type of connection they have to Vince to know if they are just another parrot of the Dirt Sheets or actually have some useful information to share.

Okay you are legit just a massive troll at this point. McMyths are actual myths perpetuated by the WWE that factually just aren't true. Not reported by the dirt sheets, just shit that doesn't add up. It can be verified just by watching their own product.

McMyth#1) DX "invading" WCW some how was the apex of the Monday Night Wars. Watch it. Nothing happened. Nobody gave a shit. It was a silly crappy angle. And yet, they perpetuate this nonsense in every fucking video about DX. That's not dirtsheet reporting, that's just people using their brains.

If you wish to be an actual contributor to this forum and not have people disparage you, maybe interact like less of a twat, and be smart like you're capable of being.


For now, I am retiring from CyNick world because you talk at me, not to me. Wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you're being too much of a knob. Keep in mind I remember your initial run on the forum where you were being a troll then too, just on exactly the opposite end with pretty much the polar opposite bullshit arguments which made no sense then. So pretty much, you're parodying yourself, and it's getting to the point of silliness.

[Simple Fan]

Anyone but Hunter

I get it now.

Its about damn time. The money is not in Sting/HHH if your just going to have Sting job. There is more money in jobbing Sting to Taker, Cena, or even Wyatt. HHH could have jobbed to Sting then had Rollins beat Sting to start that tension between the 2. The point is Vince has left money off the table with Sting and you can't deny that. I don't know if he does it on purpose or he has just lost touch but he has a trend of burying WCW guys. Before you spout off about WM20 think about when Eddie, Benoit, Jericho, and Big Show all jumped ship to WWF.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZgBkiW2sQKdQvZmqS5gbfZVqSwPQ-OMt1PzbazFx77jrYaoYK

[Simple Fan]

There were only so many of these, you will run out quickly.

Vince only has one ass and you kiss it a lot.

[Vastardikai]

Okay you are legit just a massive troll at this point. McMyths are actual myths perpetuated by the WWE that factually just aren't true. Not reported by the dirt sheets, just shit that doesn't add up. It can be verified just by watching their own product.

McMyth#1) DX "invading" WCW some how was the apex of the Monday Night Wars. Watch it. Nothing happened. Nobody gave a shit. It was a silly crappy angle. And yet, they perpetuate this nonsense in every fucking video about DX. That's not dirtsheet reporting, that's just people using their brains.

If you wish to be an actual contributor to this forum and not have people disparage you, maybe interact like less of a twat, and be smart like you're capable of being.


For now, I am retiring from CyNick world because you talk at me, not to me. Wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you're being too much of a knob. Keep in mind I remember your initial run on the forum where you were being a troll then too, just on exactly the opposite end with pretty much the polar opposite bullshit arguments which made no sense then. So pretty much, you're parodying yourself, and it's getting to the point of silliness.

Or, before Vince, wrestling events was only taking in smoky bars and high school gyms. However, even under Vince Sr. they were headlining MSG with Bruno and many territories were holding big shows in sold out baseball stadiums.

Or WM3 was the most heavily attended WWF event of all time. It was actually Summerslam '92 in Wembly.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

That is simply nonsense perpetuated by the dirtsheets.

[Damian Rey]

Don't forget the mom and pop shop gimmick that was poached of talent by the evil Ted Turner, even though Vince was buying out territories and poaching talent while loading up for and supporting his new global vision of a wrestling company.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

What are you talking about? That just sounds like more malarky put forth by that hack David Q. Meltzer.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Or, before Vince, wrestling events was only taking in smoky bars and high school gyms. However, even under Vince Sr. they were headlining MSG with Bruno and many territories were holding big shows in sold out baseball stadiums.

Or WM3 was the most heavily attended WWF event of all time. It was actually Summerslam '92 in Wembly.

80,355 > 93,173? :wtf:

[Vastardikai]

I could be and have been wrong before, but I have often heard claims that WM3 attendance numbers were overinflated.

[Emperor Smeat]

McMyth#1) DX "invading" WCW some how was the apex of the Monday Night Wars. Watch it. Nothing happened. Nobody gave a shit. It was a silly crappy angle. And yet, they perpetuate this nonsense in every fucking video about DX. That's not dirtsheet reporting, that's just people using their brains.

Best part of this McMyth was WWE supposedly told them to bail if WCW sent Meng after them. Even the WWE feared Meng more than they did WCW.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>WCW really should have just let DX roll into the arena with a fucking tank live on Nitro. Would have ensured 100% viewership for that particular segment.

But the fact that WWE acts like that was the turning point of the Monday Night Wars is comical.</font>

[Mr. Nerfect]

Now you just sound dumb. There is more money in Sting than Booker and Goldberg combined. Explain how Sting beating Hunter hurts the money match. If the money match was Rollins, a Sting win at Mania would have made more sense to have Sting built up for Rollins.

I've explained this to CyNick COUNTLESS times, and he doesn't get it. There are many ways to skin a cat, but CyNick just can't wrap his head around how making money off Sting while that program is there before moving onto Triple H vs. Rollins makes as much sense, probably more, than Triple H beating Sting and basically using him as an enhancement to build to a potentially big match later down the track between two guys that won't even mention Sting in their feud.

[Mr. Nerfect]

How do you know that was the motivation behind the booking?

If Sting going over was the right call for business, why would Vince turn down that money?

EGO.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The only people who would be looking to buy Sting masks are likely now in their 30s or 40s. So I'm guessing sales would be minimal. Hard to imagine a new flock of kids seeing 50+ year old Sting and saying "thats my guy".

Gotta let go of your childhood hero man.

Hmm, I wonder if any of that is down to HOW THEY HANDLED FUCKING STING?!?!?!

[Mr. Nerfect]

This whole "WWE does shit to dampen someone; LOOK AT HOW DAMP THEY ARE!" bullshit you do, Cynick, is getting boring. Change your gimmick up, man.

[Mr. Nerfect]

<font color=goldenrod>WCW really should have just let DX roll into the arena with a fucking tank live on Nitro. Would have ensured 100% viewership for that particular segment.

But the fact that WWE acts like that was the turning point of the Monday Night Wars is comical.</font>

They should have sent Meng and Barbarian out there to confront them. Worst case scenario, you lose Meng and Barbarian on manslaughter charges.

[Vastardikai]

They should have sent Meng and Barbarian out there to confront them. Worst case scenario, you lose Meng and Barbarian on manslaughter charges.

As if the cops could arrest them.

[Vastardikai]

Best part of this McMyth was WWE supposedly told them to bail if WCW sent Meng after them. Even the WWE feared Meng more than they did WCW.

Hell , WCW kept Meng around for years because they were too scared to fire him.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The WWE should put out a "Legend of Haku" special on the WWE Network.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Wonder if Haku could still easily fuck people up to this day.</font>

[Vastardikai]

Now he just scares them into buying a car, even if they were bringing someone else to buy a car.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I could be and have been wrong before, but I have often heard claims that WM3 attendance numbers were overinflated.

drastically

[McLegend]

CyNick, I'm trying to think more scenarios for you too book. The only thing I can think of now is Montrel. I'm not trying to beating a dead horse just want to see how you would handle it.

So let's go back in time. Will keep every situation the sam. Bret refuses to do the job, and Vince is worried what Bret will do with the title... The only thing that we are going to change you can't stop the match and "Screw Bret." How do you handle the situation?

[Simple Fan]

If you can't screw Bret I guess you let him show up on Nitro with the WWF Heavyweight Championship. Let's see what the CyNick has to say.

[Maluco]

Or you have a verbal agreement with him to do it the next night to another opponent. I don't think there was any risk of Bret showing up on Nitro with the belt.

Was it childish that he didn't want to drop it to HBK? Yes. Did he have his reasons not to? Also, yes. But he would have dropped it the next night on RAW to anyone else. It shouldn't have been the big drama that it was, but people love a good drama!

[Simple Fan]

Who would you have the other opponent be on Raw? Couldnt see it being Stone Cold being IC champ but maybe Kane who had just beat Mankind. Kane could have held the title til the next PPV where Shawn takes it off him.

[The CyNick]

Okay you are legit just a massive troll at this point. McMyths are actual myths perpetuated by the WWE that factually just aren't true. Not reported by the dirt sheets, just shit that doesn't add up. It can be verified just by watching their own product.

McMyth#1) DX "invading" WCW some how was the apex of the Monday Night Wars. Watch it. Nothing happened. Nobody gave a shit. It was a silly crappy angle. And yet, they perpetuate this nonsense in every fucking video about DX. That's not dirtsheet reporting, that's just people using their brains.

If you wish to be an actual contributor to this forum and not have people disparage you, maybe interact like less of a twat, and be smart like you're capable of being.


For now, I am retiring from CyNick world because you talk at me, not to me. Wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you're being too much of a knob. Keep in mind I remember your initial run on the forum where you were being a troll then too, just on exactly the opposite end with pretty much the polar opposite bullshit arguments which made no sense then. So pretty much, you're parodying yourself, and it's getting to the point of silliness.

I'll try to carry on without you Dale. It will be challenging, but I must try.

[The CyNick]

Its about damn time. The money is not in Sting/HHH if your just going to have Sting job. There is more money in jobbing Sting to Taker, Cena, or even Wyatt. HHH could have jobbed to Sting then had Rollins beat Sting to start that tension between the 2. The point is Vince has left money off the table with Sting and you can't deny that. I don't know if he does it on purpose or he has just lost touch but he has a trend of burying WCW guys. Before you spout off about WM20 think about when Eddie, Benoit, Jericho, and Big Show all jumped ship to WWF.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZgBkiW2sQKdQvZmqS5gbfZVqSwPQ-OMt1PzbazFx77jrYaoYK

Having HHH lose to Sting hurts Hunter's credibility. Who do you think will work more matches in future Manias, Sting or Hunter?

[The CyNick]

Or, before Vince, wrestling events was only taking in smoky bars and high school gyms. However, even under Vince Sr. they were headlining MSG with Bruno and many territories were holding big shows in sold out baseball stadiums.

Or WM3 was the most heavily attended WWF event of all time. It was actually Summerslam '92 in Wembly.

Are you from somewhere in Great Britain?

[The CyNick]

<font color=goldenrod>WCW really should have just let DX roll into the arena with a fucking tank live on Nitro. Would have ensured 100% viewership for that particular segment.

But the fact that WWE acts like that was the turning point of the Monday Night Wars is comical.</font>

Turning point is a stretch, but they were there on WCW turf, and the fans saw them as big stars. So it was something.

[The CyNick]

I've explained this to CyNick COUNTLESS times, and he doesn't get it. There are many ways to skin a cat, but CyNick just can't wrap his head around how making money off Sting while that program is there before moving onto Triple H vs. Rollins makes as much sense, probably more, than Triple H beating Sting and basically using him as an enhancement to build to a potentially big match later down the track between two guys that won't even mention Sting in their feud.

Most people on here cant see the larger picture.

Sting vs Hunter at Mania was used to sell future Monday Night Wars programming on WWE Network. Thats why they involved NWO (representing WCW and DX representing WWE). From thats standpoint alone it made sense for Hunter to win, because WWE won the war.

BEYOND THAT, you want to keep Hunter strong because he's going to work with Rollins at some point. And further, the story they were telling between Hunter (the teacher) and Rollins (the student), it hurts the story if Hunter looks weak right off the bat.

I personally dont think there was huge money in other Sting matches. I could be wrong, but the guy was in TNA for years, and its not like TNA ever had a really successful PPV that he was a part of. So I dont see where the evidence is that Sting was big time player. Thats the disconnect with some of you guys, you see Sting on the level of guys like Brock, Rock or Hunter, where I dont think the average fan does.

[The CyNick]

CyNick, I'm trying to think more scenarios for you too book. The only thing I can think of now is Montrel. I'm not trying to beating a dead horse just want to see how you would handle it.

So let's go back in time. Will keep every situation the sam. Bret refuses to do the job, and Vince is worried what Bret will do with the title... The only thing that we are going to change you can't stop the match and "Screw Bret." How do you handle the situation?

People will just roll their eyes, so I probably shouldnt bother, but I feel Vince handled that masterfully.

To me, you couldnt let Bret walk out of Survivor Series as champion. I'm sure we have all heard interviews with Bret, and realize he takes the business and his character really seriously. Maybe too seriously. As a result, it clouded his judgment and he acted selfishly and refusing to drop to Shawn in Montreal.

From Vince's POV, you have Bret going to Turner, and you have this big grudge match booked. Standard wrestling booking is when a guy is leaving a territory, he does the favours. It was perfectly reasonable for Vince to EXPECT Bret to put over someone of his choosing. Bret and Shawn were rivals, and if Bret is leaving, you want Shawn to look like the superior talent. Bret acted childish, and refused, so Vince was backed into a corner.

The epic thing was Vince had the foresight to put himself on TV as an authority figure in the angle. This was perfect, because it set up the next decade plus of TV as him as the evil authority figure. Really smart booking, a genius move.

[The CyNick]

Or you have a verbal agreement with him to do it the next night to another opponent. I don't think there was any risk of Bret showing up on Nitro with the belt.

Was it childish that he didn't want to drop it to HBK? Yes. Did he have his reasons not to? Also, yes. But he would have dropped it the next night on RAW to anyone else. It shouldn't have been the big drama that it was, but people love a good drama!

The next night TV was in Canada, whats different between dropping on Sunday or Monday? The issue was dropping to Shawn and in Canada. On both issues, Bret acted unprofessional.

[The CyNick]

Who would you have the other opponent be on Raw? Couldnt see it being Stone Cold being IC champ but maybe Kane who had just beat Mankind. Kane could have held the title til the next PPV where Shawn takes it off him.

Austin would have been too early. They wanted to build up to Austin winning at Mania. Having him win randomly on RAW would have been very WCW.

[Simple Fan]

That's why I said I couldnt see it being Stone Cold.

[The CyNick]

That's why I said I couldnt see it being Stone Cold.

I wasnt disagreeing, just piling on the point you made.

[McLegend]

People will just roll their eyes, so I probably shouldnt bother, but I feel Vince handled that masterfully.

To me, you couldnt let Bret walk out of Survivor Series as champion. I'm sure we have all heard interviews with Bret, and realize he takes the business and his character really seriously. Maybe too seriously. As a result, it clouded his judgment and he acted selfishly and refusing to drop to Shawn in Montreal.

From Vince's POV, you have Bret going to Turner, and you have this big grudge match booked. Standard wrestling booking is when a guy is leaving a territory, he does the favours. It was perfectly reasonable for Vince to EXPECT Bret to put over someone of his choosing. Bret and Shawn were rivals, and if Bret is leaving, you want Shawn to look like the superior talent. Bret acted childish, and refused, so Vince was backed into a corner.

The epic thing was Vince had the foresight to put himself on TV as an authority figure in the angle. This was perfect, because it set up the next decade plus of TV as him as the evil authority figure. Really smart booking, a genius move.
I think Vince handled it the best way possible way to especially considering how every turned out for WWE.

I'm doing this in total fantasy world which is going to be unrealistic. I would do Money in the bank/WM 9 style.

I would end the Bret/HBK match in a double DQ, and then I would have someone let's say Owen Hart (it can be anyone I don't care) challenge Bret after the match, and then Owen wins the belt. However he loses it at the next PPV to Shawn, and maybe not that much of the future is changed.

That way everything ends up amicable between Vince and Bret. It's unrealistic, but I think it kind of works.

[KIRA]

Ok Cynick whats your opinion on the New Day? They've stated on Jericho's podcast that they have creative control and the New Day we see now is NOT what Vince had in mind.(obviously)He saw them as babyface's with a stereotypical(basically a trio of gospel preachers) gimmick and according to them he isn't all that happy and he was surprised that it didn't pan out(which kinda backs up the whole Vince is old and outta touch thing)

[BigCrippyZ]

Ok Cynick whats your opinion on the New Day? They've stated on Jericho's podcast that they have creative control and the New Day we see now is NOT what Vince had in mind.(obviously)He saw them as babyface's with a stereotypical gimmick and according to them he isn't all that happy and he was surprised that it didn't pan out(which kinda backs up the whole Vince is old and outta touch thing)

According to Cynick, it doesn't matter what New Day has stated. If it doesn't come from HHH or Vince, it isn't credible and likely isn't true.

In any event, Cynick thinks that Vince is a creative genius who, despite his age is more in tune with what makes great entertainment than even the fans are. In this scenario, Vince's creative genius, etc. is evidenced by not coming up with a successful gimmick for New Day on his own, but instead letting New Day come up with their own creative.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

How I would have handled Montreal

Austin/Owen have their match as it went down and Bret cuts a promo on Owen saying how he let his entire family and country down. Owen tells him to fuck off and challenges him to put the belt on the line against him right now! Owen wins clean and is the WWE Champion. HBK and Bret then have their match without the title.

HBK wins the title on Raw from Owen. Giving Owen a deserved title reign and respect. If Bret wouldn't job to Owen then he should be the one who died.

[KIRA]

According to Cynick, it doesn't matter what New Day has stated. If it doesn't come from HHH or Vince, it isn't credible and likely isn't true.

In any event, Cynick thinks that Vince is a creative genius who, despite his age is more in tune with what makes great entertainment than even the fans are. In this scenario, Vince's creative genius, etc. is evidenced by not coming up with a successful gimmick for New Day on his own, but instead letting New Day come up with their own creative.

They also confirmed (without actually saying it)what we've always known Vince doesn't like ideas that don't come from him no matter how good they are.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Ok Cynick whats your opinion on the New Day? They've stated on Jericho's podcast that they have creative control and the New Day we see now is NOT what Vince had in mind.(obviously)He saw them as babyface's with a stereotypical(basically a trio of gospel preachers) gimmick and according to them he isn't all that happy and he was surprised that it didn't pan out(which kinda backs up the whole Vince is old and outta touch thing)

We've already addressed this. Cynicks talked to Vince and this is actually what he wanted because he is in fact a man of the people

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The epic thing was Vince had the foresight to put himself on TV as an authority figure in the angle. This was perfect, because it set up the next decade plus of TV as him as the evil authority figure. Really smart booking, a genius move.

Minus him trying to be a babyface after it al happened. No foresight but stil smart to go heel when he realized the fans didn't buy him as a face

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I think these thoughts from Mick Foley echo our statements. I mean I know Mick is nothing compared to Vince and HHH, and has never accomplished anything in the business. And yeah, I don't think anybody cares about swearing and cussing and attitude era raunchiness but realistically they've killed a lot of the art behind it. I've heard Bautista echo these statements too. Listen to what the boys say, they don't think it's all sunshine and lollipops either.


FINAL RAW FOR FOLEY?
WWE is at a real crossroads. Allow me to paraphrase Albert Einstein, who said "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results". Wrestling historians can argue about when the ‪#‎AttitudeEra‬ in wrestling officially began. But for me, it will always be at a meeting called by Mr McMahon in the Spring of 1997, where he admitted that what had worked for them for so long in the past (I interpreted that to mean one-dimensional characters that tended to be job-related) was no longer working, and that if they were going to survive, the wrestlers themselves were going to have to step up, and help create those dimensions that would establish the emotional bond between the wrestlers and the fans - part of the lifeblood of professional wrestling.
Today's WWE Superstars (I'm including the women here, since the term "Diva" had its time, and that time is done) are at a distinct disadvantage in some ways. They can't flip birds, and use the colorful language. They can't bleed - even when the situation seems ripe for it. Man, Roman Reigns life would be so much easier if he could survive vicious assaults - and be left bloodied, but unbowed - the way guys in my era did. But all the blood, the language and the violence paled in comparison to the real secret weapon of the Attitude Era; FREEDOM! The freedom to CREATE..the freedom to TRY... the freedom to FAIL - the idea that going down swinging (I hope I'm not losing you guys in all the non-baseball playing countries) was almost as important as hitting the ball out of the park - as long as you took your best swings. There's a difference between playing to win, and playing not to lose: one breeds confidence, the other breeds fear.It's the difference between cutting the type of promos Stone Cold Steve Austin and Dwayne The Rock Johnson gave, and the cookie-cutter approach all too often employed these days by WWE creative. One style allowed for creativity and emotion. The other calls for memorization and recitation.
I hope I don't sound like I'm picking on WWE. There is a big part of me that loves this company, and always will. Why else would I be up at 4:15 am, writing things that are likely to banish me deeper and deeper into the WWE doghouse? One of my favorite wrestlers proposed a storyline that would allow me a four of five week storyline that would allow me to dig in deep, and swing for the fences - and in the process, maybe advance a few of the super-talented but underutilized athletes on the roster. I would love to do it....but I doubt it's going to happen. After all, I might want to do something crazy like go out there without a script, and try to create some real emotion - in other words, the type of thing that saved WWE in the late 90's.
The talent pool has never been deeper. But the creative flow is stagnant...and it's been stinking for a while. I quoted Einstein to begin this thing. Let me conclude with the immortal words of Owen Heart: "Enough's enough: it's time for a change!"

[KIRA]

According to Cynick, it doesn't matter what New Day has stated. If it doesn't come from HHH or Vince, it isn't credible and likely isn't true.

In any event, Cynick thinks that Vince is a creative genius who, despite his age is more in tune with what makes great entertainment than even the fans are. In this scenario, Vince's creative genius, etc. is evidenced by not coming up with a successful gimmick for New Day on his own, but instead letting New Day come up with their own creative.

I think I'll be at a loss for words if the response I get is something along the lines of "See Vince is still a genius because he knew enough to trust New Day with their own creative output."

[The CyNick]

Minus him trying to be a babyface after it al happened. No foresight but stil smart to go heel when he realized the fans didn't buy him as a face

That promo was designed to babyface the direction the company was going, not Vince himself.

[CSL]

People will just roll their eyes, so I probably shouldnt bother, but I feel Vince handled that masterfully.

To me, you couldnt let Bret walk out of Survivor Series as champion. I'm sure we have all heard interviews with Bret, and realize he takes the business and his character really seriously. Maybe too seriously. As a result, it clouded his judgment and he acted selfishly and refusing to drop to Shawn in Montreal.

From Vince's POV, you have Bret going to Turner, and you have this big grudge match booked. Standard wrestling booking is when a guy is leaving a territory, he does the favours. It was perfectly reasonable for Vince to EXPECT Bret to put over someone of his choosing. Bret and Shawn were rivals, and if Bret is leaving, you want Shawn to look like the superior talent. Bret acted childish, and refused, so Vince was backed into a corner.

I think this was the post where you jumped the shark, for me anyway

[The CyNick]

I think I'll be at a loss for words if the response I get is something along the lines of "See Vince is still a genius because he knew enough to trust New Day with their own creative output."

I started listening to the Jericho podcast with New Day that some people have brought up. Haven't got through the whole thing yet.

Sounds like Vince thought the group had potential and was stuck for a gimmick. He came up with the preacher idea and thought it would get over as a babyface act. It was working in some towns, but the smark cities they were a heel, which started to carry over. They got a really strong heel reaction the day after Mania, so Vince agreed to go heel with the act.

The takeaway for me is Vince had the vision that the three guys would work as an act. He thought a bunch of black guys spreading positivity would catch on as a babyface act. He then listened to the crowd and went in the other direction for the time being. The ironic thing is New Day will likely end up as babyfaces, so Vince will be ultimately proven correct. The only difference is I think the act will have a little more of an edge than Vince originally expected. The cool thing about listening to those guys is they personify what Vince has been challenging the talent to do. Take an interest in your characters direction, and really own it. Makes me like these guys even more, and reiterates what I've believed, which is the system is there to make stars, and works when the talent is motivated and skilled.

[The CyNick]

I think this was the post where you jumped the shark, for me anyway

He was backed into a corner

You have your champion leaving and refusing to put over the guy you want to be the heir apparent.

Nash put over HBK and Taker on his way out. Why couldn't Bret put over HBK?

Bret left Vince with no choice. Well, no good choice anyway.

[CSL]

there's an awful lot of information you're leaving out right there which you probably know and aren't adding for the sake of "doing your thing". If that isn't the case, you should probably look into that

[KIRA]

I The cool thing about listening to those guys is they personify what Vince has been challenging the talent to do. Take an interest in your characters direction, and really own it. Makes me like these guys even more, and reiterates what I've believed, which is the system is there to make stars, and works when the talent is motivated and skilled.

I'm pretty sure that not everyone has the creative freedom that New Day has.

In other words work within our really rigid system and get yourself over. You hear that Johnny Curtis? It's your fault that despite being insanely talented you can't get over with your lack of TV time and stupid gimmick.


The system is not there to make stars it's there to elevate a select few who fit a certain criteria.

[The CyNick]

I'm pretty sure that not everyone has the creative freedom that New Day has.

In other words work within our really rigid system and get yourself over.

It worked wonders for Zack Ryder.

I don't see why New Day would get special treatment. Maybe now, because they are over, but when they were first trying to establish a gimmick they said they were always going to Vince with concepts.

Ryder was over for a time, but his popularity fizzled out because he didn't have any depth to his gimmick. It was just broski and woowoowoo and that's it. Plus he came off like a geek

[The CyNick]

there's an awful lot of information you're leaving out right there which you probably know and aren't adding for the sake of "doing your thing". If that isn't the case, you should probably look into that

Care to elaborate?

Keep in mind I've only listed to about 10 minutes. Which isn't "doing my thing", unless my thing is being busy at the time.

[KIRA]

I don't see why New Day would get special treatment. Maybe now, because they are over, but when they were first trying to establish a gimmick they said they were always going to Vince with concepts.

Ryder was over for a time, but his popularity fizzled out because he didn't have any depth to his gimmick. It was just broski and woowoowoo and that's it. Plus he came off like a geek

Why do I get the feeling that you don't think the company actually pushing Ryder would have mattered?

Lets apply this logic to Roman he isn't interesting all he is so by the numbers it hurts has zero depth to him fans generally dislike him. Ryder at least has Something but by your logic Roman should be a non-issue right now, he isn't because the WWE is determined to make us think he doesn't suck. Having the company support DOES matter.

[The CyNick]

Why do I get the feeling that you don't think the company actually pushing Ryder would have mattered?

Lets apply this logic to Roman he isn't interesting all he is so by the numbers it hurts has zero depth to him fans generally dislike him. Ryder at least has Something but by your logic Roman should be a non-issue right now, he isn't because the WWE is determined to make us think he doesn't suck. Having the company support DOES matter.

I remember watching Ryder grow in popularity because he was smart and was an early adopter to social media. I would watch him get these huge pops and think "why do people like this guy? ". But hey different strokes. In my opinion what happened was they got what they could out of him. He was like a car with only one gear. You need more than that to elevate your career.

To me Roman has a much better look than Ryder, he works like a main eventer, he has crazy presence, he just needs more confidence on the mic. I think that can be developed.

[KIRA]

To me Roman has a much better look than Ryder, he works like a main eventer, he has crazy presence, he just needs more confidence on the mic. I think that can be developed.

Give Dean his spot then he has all the tools.

[CSL]

Care to elaborate?

Keep in mind I've only listed to about 10 minutes. Which isn't "doing my thing", unless my thing is being busy at the time.

to be quick, you left out:

-Bret had a certain level of creative control over the final 30 days of his contract, something Vince agreed to when they signed the 20 year deal

-Bret had a month left on his contract after Montreal, his final scheduled date was the following PPV or the RAW after, something they specifically negotiated with Bischoff/WCW to allow Bret to drop the belt

-Due to the ongoing lawsuits between WWE and WCW stemming from the likeness/copyright/intellectual property with Hall and co, there isn't a chance WCW would ever have had Bret show up with the belt on their TV show. They'd have been sued into oblivion

-Bret was willing to put anybody else over before or after Montreal/the Canada trip. He even was willing to put Shawn over at the following PPV despite the fact that...

-Shawn (then at the height of his "off the rails" period) point blank told Bret to his face he wasn't willing to ever put him over, which led to the initial hesitance on Bret's part (as well as admittedly taking the whole Canada schtick a bit too seriously) to drop the belt to Shawn at all

[Corporate CockSnogger]

How I would have handled Montreal

Austin/Owen have their match as it went down and Bret cuts a promo on Owen saying how he let his entire family and country down. Owen tells him to fuck off and challenges him to put the belt on the line against him right now! Owen wins clean and is the WWE Champion. HBK and Bret then have their match without the title.

HBK wins the title on Raw from Owen. Giving Owen a deserved title reign and respect. If Bret wouldn't job to Owen then he should be the one who died.



Hey guys, this post happened as well you know...

[screech]

lol what the hell

[DAMN iNATOR]

It's fascinating when we get to see CyNick interact with some of the old guard who haven't posted here in a while...I wonder how long Mr. CSL will keep at him before he realizes what the rest of us already know about CyNick being very set in his opinions.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The system is not there to make stars it's there to elevate a select few who fit a certain criteria.

And don't forget buzzwords which removes all organic feel from every thing. But Vince is the greatest of all time at all of life, and even his very few mistakes he has ever made can be easily rationalized, and are simply sensationalized by that fascist Dave Meltzer.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

CSL better get ready to be talked at and then have thedamndest tell him hes been owned and now butthurt by the superior rhetoric of thecynick

[drave]

Hey guys, this post happened as well you know...


We tend to just look past the majority of STD's posts anymore. It's kinda like he gets a Dana Brooke pat to the head for doing a good job.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/ac3278ac8b60525f3d5806a6e14224fd/tumblr_nry09uFVVW1sbzhteo1_400.gif

[The CyNick]

to be quick, you left out:

-Bret had a certain level of creative control over the final 30 days of his contract, something Vince agreed to when they signed the 20 year deal

-Bret had a month left on his contract after Montreal, his final scheduled date was the following PPV or the RAW after, something they specifically negotiated with Bischoff/WCW to allow Bret to drop the belt

-Due to the ongoing lawsuits between WWE and WCW stemming from the likeness/copyright/intellectual property with Hall and co, there isn't a chance WCW would ever have had Bret show up with the belt on their TV show. They'd have been sued into oblivion

-Bret was willing to put anybody else over before or after Montreal/the Canada trip. He even was willing to put Shawn over at the following PPV despite the fact that...

-Shawn (then at the height of his "off the rails" period) point blank told Bret to his face he wasn't willing to ever put him over, which led to the initial hesitance on Bret's part (as well as admittedly taking the whole Canada schtick a bit too seriously) to drop the belt to Shawn at all



Sorry I thought you were talking about the New Day convo.

Trust me my man, I know every painful detail about this story from everyone who was there (well at least what they said publically).

I understand that Bret had "reasonable creative control". To me its reasonable and professional to JOB to one guy of the company's choosing prior to leaving.

Bret to me last all credibility in his documentary when he said losing in Montreal would be like the character blowing his brains out in the middle of the ring. Theres no other way to describe that line of thinking than batshit crazy. Imagine if Nash had said the same about putting over Taker clean at 12.

The issue about showing up with the title was moot. It wouldn't matter if he showed up with the physical belt, he would have already announced he was leaving on TV (that was Bret's idea), so as a fan, and subsequent loss would have looked phony.

There's no doubt Vince created an issue by signing the deal he did, but if I were Vince, I would have thought asking Bret to put over ONE top talent was within reason. And it's impossible to argue it wasn't reasonable. If Vince would have asked Bret to drop the strap to Chyna in Montreal, I could see a beef with that. But this was Shawn, Bret should have been a pro and just put over Shawn and walked into the sunset. His ego got in the way of good business.

[CSL]

haha so your gimmick is "talking head from the Monday Night Wars on WWE Network", gotcha :y:

[The CyNick]

haha so your gimmick is "talking head from the Monday Night Wars on WWE Network", gotcha :y:

I've been saying the same thing for years. Long before WWE Network.

I believe when it first happened, I was on Bret's side. When I watched his doc, and started reading more first hand accounts, I developed the view I currently have.

But yeah, you fit in well here by not debating anything I said. Cool.

[CSL]

lol you aren't debating anything, just sticking to your points no matter what is said in terms of logic and common sense. I've spent silly amounts of time having long-winded debates on here with people over the years, it's not something I've been above doing. But you don't actually have anything to say

[The CyNick]

lol you aren't debating anything, just sticking to your points no matter what is said in terms of logic and common sense. I've spent silly amounts of time having long-winded debates on here with people over the years, it's not something I've been above doing. But you don't actually have anything to say

Unfortunate

[Damian Rey]

Think the road to to Wrestlemania just started, and csl just won the Rumble.

[The CyNick]

Think the road to to Wrestlemania just started, and csl just won the Rumble.

I feel like I was put in my place

[KIRA]

Explain Eugine
and mocking JRs Bells Palsy....WHILE PUSHING THE B A STAR CAMPAIGN.

[Rammsteinmad]

Then explain Smackdown's shitty rating.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

gonna piggyback off of what csl said as its been what we've been saying for some time, but with a bit more of his trademark cuntiness.

[CSL]

https://blog.swiftkey.com/content/uploads/2015/05/GrinningFace-Emoji.png

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

MWAH

[The CyNick]

gonna piggyback off of what csl said as its been what we've been saying for some time, but with a bit more of his trademark cuntiness.

Dale, don't lower yourself to CSL's level. You at least debate a point (majority of the time). CSL made a bunch of points, which I retorted, and then rather than making a counterpoint he goes "you're just sticking to your point". Well maybe if someone brings a point that causes me to change my position, I might. And it's not like he was flexible on his position either.

If the idea is "there's no point of presenting differing opinions because it's all been said before", then this message board would be pretty dull (think how it was before I made my much heralded return). Maybe a guy like CSL comes to a message board for the ads, I don't know.

Don't be the guy who is willing to take the count out loss. If you have a position at least have the gumption to defend it.

[The CyNick]

Explain Eugine
and mocking JRs Bells Palsy....WHILE PUSHING THE B A STAR CAMPAIGN.

I may have been out of the loop on the making fun of JR. If they did, I think it's in poor taste, and isn't conducive of maximizing TV rights fees.

Eugene wad a character I didn't personally like, but he was positioned high on the card, and for a while there, people were into it. So I had no problem with it.

[The CyNick]

Then explain Smackdown's shitty rating.

On Thanksgiving???

Likely had to do with throwing out the script Jim Cornette, Mick Foley, and Dave Meltzer worked on together. If only they would listen! !!! WWE could actually turn a profit. Oh well.

[CSL]

To me, you couldnt let Bret walk out of Survivor Series as champion. I'm sure we have all heard interviews with Bret, and realize he takes the business and his character really seriously. Maybe too seriously. As a result, it clouded his judgment and he acted selfishly and refusing to drop to Shawn in Montreal.

From Vince's POV, you have Bret going to Turner, and you have this big grudge match booked. Standard wrestling booking is when a guy is leaving a territory, he does the favours. It was perfectly reasonable for Vince to EXPECT Bret to put over someone of his choosing. Bret and Shawn were rivals, and if Bret is leaving, you want Shawn to look like the superior talent. Bret acted childish, and refused, so Vince was backed into a corner.

He was backed into a corner

You have your champion leaving and refusing to put over the guy you want to be the heir apparent.

Nash put over HBK and Taker on his way out. Why couldn't Bret put over HBK?

Bret left Vince with no choice. Well, no good choice anyway.

I understand that Bret had "reasonable creative control". To me its reasonable and professional to JOB to one guy of the company's choosing prior to leaving.

Bret to me last all credibility in his documentary when he said losing in Montreal would be like the character blowing his brains out in the middle of the ring. Theres no other way to describe that line of thinking than batshit crazy. Imagine if Nash had said the same about putting over Taker clean at 12.

The issue about showing up with the title was moot. It wouldn't matter if he showed up with the physical belt, he would have already announced he was leaving on TV (that was Bret's idea), so as a fan, and subsequent loss would have looked phony.

There's no doubt Vince created an issue by signing the deal he did, but if I were Vince, I would have thought asking Bret to put over ONE top talent was within reason. And it's impossible to argue it wasn't reasonable. If Vince would have asked Bret to drop the strap to Chyna in Montreal, I could see a beef with that. But this was Shawn, Bret should have been a pro and just put over Shawn and walked into the sunset. His ego got in the way of good business.

Cynick, buddy, pal, sweetums, these 3 posts say pretty much the exact same thing whilst ignoring logic and the majority of my response. So there is still nothing to actually respond to or "counterpoint".

[Rammsteinmad]

On Thanksgiving???

Likely had to do with throwing out the script Jim Cornette, Mick Foley, and Dave Meltzer worked on together. If only they would listen! !!! WWE could actually turn a profit. Oh well.

Great job on not really explaining anything. :y:

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>The CyNick is doing some god-tier level trolling in this thread/forum.</font>

[The CyNick]

Cynick, buddy, pal, sweetums, these 3 posts say pretty much the exact same thing whilst ignoring logic and the majority of my response. So there is still nothing to actually respond to or "counterpoint".

Sorry, apple of my eye, what logic am I ignoring?

[The CyNick]

Great job on not really explaining anything. :y:

Ratings:

Thanksgiving is a national holiday celebrated in Canada and the United States as a day of giving thanks for the blessing of the harvest and of the preceeding year. Thanksgiving is celebrated on the second Monday of October in Canada and on the fourth Thursday of November in the United States.

The part about Cornette:

The Tongue-in-cheek figure of speech is used to imply that a statement or other production is humorously or otherwise not seriously intended, and it should not be taken at face value.

[Damian Rey]

<font color=goldenrod>The CyNick is doing some god-tier level trolling in this thread/forum.</font>

http://n2historydotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/ken-watanabe.gif?w=300&h=124

[KIRA]

<font color=goldenrod>The CyNick is doing some god-tier level trolling in this thread/forum.</font>

That may be nonetheless it is fascinating that someone could defend and even love the BS the WWE has churned out.
It's like he's on the payroll to tow the company line.

[Shadrick]

<font color=goldenrod>The CyNick is doing some god-tier level trolling in this thread/forum.</font>

It's amazing.

[KIRA]

Why halt R-Truths awesome heel run? He was in a feud with John fucking Cena.
and before you say he was too goofy to be taken as a real threat
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nRQfBVGYDok" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/A6T0Eng6fPw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Oh man if they had just let him cut lose :drool:

[Rammsteinmad]

Ratings:

Thanksgiving is a national holiday celebrated in Canada and the United States as a day of giving thanks for the blessing of the harvest and of the preceeding year. Thanksgiving is celebrated on the second Monday of October in Canada and on the fourth Thursday of November in the United States.

The part about Cornette:

The Tongue-in-cheek figure of speech is used to imply that a statement or other production is humorously or otherwise not seriously intended, and it should not be taken at face value.

Ok thanks. Still doesn't explain why Smackdown is so shitty but hey never mind the last few posts have summed up this thread anyway.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

from wiki

"<b>Poe's law</b> is an internet adage which states that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, parodies of extremism are indistinguishable from sincere expressions of extremism. Poe's Law implies that parody will often be mistaken for sincere belief, and sincere beliefs for parody."

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol it's hilarious in the casual forum guys who've read like 3 of the cynick's posts are like "IT'S AMAZING HOW THE WRESTLING FORUM GUYS CAN'T DEAL WITH A GUY NOT THINKING CESARO IS AMAZING" and it's like no, pretty much all of us understand people not being into guys we like. We'll debate about it for days but I feel like we all have a healthy understanding of differing tastes.

[KIRA]

Yea pretty much.

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't think Cesaro is a main event caliber guy either. That's definitely not the problem with CyNick. lol

[hb2k]

I understand that Bret had "reasonable creative control". To me its reasonable and professional to JOB to one guy of the company's choosing prior to leaving.

The issue about showing up with the title was moot. It wouldn't matter if he showed up with the physical belt, he would have already announced he was leaving on TV (that was Bret's idea), so as a fan, and subsequent loss would have looked phony.

There's no doubt Vince created an issue by signing the deal he did, but if I were Vince, I would have thought asking Bret to put over ONE top talent was within reason. And it's impossible to argue it wasn't reasonable. If Vince would have asked Bret to drop the strap to Chyna in Montreal, I could see a beef with that. But this was Shawn, Bret should have been a pro and just put over Shawn and walked into the sunset. His ego got in the way of good business.

Bret proposed losing to anybody, including Shawn, once that two day period in Canada was over with. Bret handing the belt over was a suggestion that Vince agreed to, not an order, Vince had the same right to veto that Bret did, they could have worked out a better plan if he wanted to. Bret suggested it because his leaving got out in newspapers, hotlines and the internet anyway, and Vince agreed that since people knew anyway, it didn't matter if Bischoff announced it. I don't see how any of this is Vince backed into a corner.

Bret to me last all credibility in his documentary when he said losing in Montreal would be like the character blowing his brains out in the middle of the ring. Theres no other way to describe that line of thinking than batshit crazy. Imagine if Nash had said the same about putting over Taker clean at 12.

This is an absolutely absurd comparison. It's not even remotely the same thing. Bret signed a huge deal because his value to his new employer was largely based on his strength in the Canadian market, which WCW had historically never done well in. Nash's value at Mania 12 is a wrestler on a wrestling show. Bret's value in Canada was his entire selling point from a negotiating perspective, and since he added reasonable creative control to specifically avoid being devalued on the way out, Bret saw dropping the belt in Canada to the guy who picked his nose with and fucked the Canadian flag as potentially damaging to his value. Anybody that argues against it using the "well what if I don't job in America" is either a complete idiot, or so badly want to be anti-Bret that they are flagrantly ignoring the obvious. Bret put that creative control clause in so he couldn't be downgraded. They put him in a position to be potentially downgraded. He suggested losing elsewhere where it wouldn't be so damaging.

And of all the fucking people to make a comparison to, Nash, a guy who refused to job tons of times for no rhyme or reason other than he didn't want to.

[KIRA]

And of all the fucking people to make a comparison to, Nash, a guy who refused to job tons of times for no rhyme or reason other than he didn't want to.

And when he did job it was for his own benefit.

[CSL]

you two had better watch your Nash based words http://www.tpwwforums.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Kevin Nash is the greatest man who ever lived. He's nice enough to allow others to win the Nobel Peace Prize.</font>

[KIRA]

you two had better watch your Nash based words http://www.tpwwforums.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Out of respect for Big Kev I refrained from bashing him and contributed to the Nashvember thread but,Nashvember is over.

[ron the dial]

nashvember goes on eternally in our hearts.

[Heisenberg]

Is Cesaro's sexual orientation keeping him from Main Event status?

[drave]

***CESARO SPEAKS OUT ABOUT DONG -==-CLICK HERE TO FINDOUT***

[The CyNick]

lol it's hilarious in the casual forum guys who've read like 3 of the cynick's posts are like "IT'S AMAZING HOW THE WRESTLING FORUM GUYS CAN'T DEAL WITH A GUY NOT THINKING CESARO IS AMAZING" and it's like no, pretty much all of us understand people not being into guys we like. We'll debate about it for days but I feel like we all have a healthy understanding of differing tastes.

To play devils advocate, people on here do seem to take their favourites and when they don't get pushed to the moon, they chalk it up to creative bring inept. You rarely hear about the fact that Cesaro has holes in his game.

[KIRA]

To play devils advocate, people on here do seem to take their favourites and when they don't get pushed to the moon, they chalk it up to creative bring inept. You rarely hear about the fact that Cesaro has holes in his game.

I'm gonna do it again,whatever"holes" Cesaro has Roman has a lot more. You said Roman wrestles like a main eventer I just took that to mean "as basic as possible (and he doesn't even do that all that well) Cesaro at least has the wrestling part down and unlike Roman he has gotten over just on that.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

To play devils advocate, people on here do seem to take their favourites and when they don't get pushed to the moon, they chalk it up to creative bring inept. You rarely hear about the fact that Cesaro has holes in his game.

Most are aware of his holes. Its not that he isn't pushed to the moon's, it's the inconsistancy. He can put guys over no problem, but it has to be done right.

[The CyNick]

And when he did job it was for his own benefit.

Yeah losing to Taker and Shawn really helped his value on his way to WCW.

Oh wait, it's a work and everyone knows it. He still drew fine because he's talented.

When the chips were down, Nash was a pro.

But I know, the dirt sheets say he killed WCW, so we gotta all hate him.

[The CyNick]

Most are aware of his holes. Its not that he isn't pushed to the moon's, it's the inconsistancy. He can put guys over no problem, but it has to be done right.

If people were aware of his holes, they would understand how he is booked.

[Big Vic]

Yeah losing to Taker and Shawn really helped his value on his way to WCW.
Didn't hurt, his contract was already signed and he was at the top of the card when he arrived.

[Simple Fan]

But I know, the dirt sheets say he killed WCW, so we gotta all hate him.

We just had a whole month dedicated to the man, but yet we all hate him.

[The CyNick]

I'm gonna do it again,whatever"holes" Cesaro has Roman has a lot more. You said Roman wrestles like a main eventer I just took that to mean "as basic as possible (and he doesn't even do that all that well) Cesaro at least has the wrestling part down and unlike Roman he has gotten over just on that.

When you hear main event talent talk about putting together a match, they say you only need a few moves that people can identify, and you need a sequence of those moves that can be done with fire during a comeback.

Up until the last couple months, I don't think Cesaro had the right mix of moves to create a proper sequence to finish a match. He also was weak in terms of selling and playing babyface in peril. I think he's gotten better at it, and that's why you saw him getting more focus. But he got hurt so we're back to square one.

So for me the booking made sense, because you want to showcase his power in the ring to help him stand out. But at the same time if you push him hard before he's ready he'll fail

Difference to me with Roman is he has the in ring part of his game more polished. He could still add a move or two, but generally I feel like he's there. His issue is the long promo that top babyfaces traditionally are expected to do. He needs to get comfortable with that aspect or he will ultimately fall as a top face. Cesaro is even further behind Roman in terms of just flat out talking, nevermind cutting a 15 minute promo. Which is ANOTHER strike against Cesaro.

Cesaro reminds me a lot of Davey Boy Smith.

[KIRA]

We just had a whole month dedicated to the man, but yet we all hate him.

IKR?

[The CyNick]

Didn't hurt, his contract was already signed and he was at the top of the card when he arrived.

Bret was going to be on top as well. What's the difference?

[Simple Fan]

If people were aware of his holes, they would understand how he is booked.

I understand his one flaw is his mic work, and a simple manager/valet would do the trick for him. Reigns on the other hand has alot more flaws other than mic work (which in my opinion is worse than Cesaro's). He has a cookie cutter moveset and two finishers that have the same set up. I understand both of thems "holes" and dont understand why either of them are in the spot they are in.

Roman could be something if they would let him show some personality. His best promo in WWE was when superstars were impersonating Macho Man. He is very green in the ring and should be climbing through the mid card right now, maybe even holding the IC or US title or even both but i dont feel he is a main even talent at the moment.

Cesaro has all the tools in the ring and has got over simply from his in ring work. He has been in WWE for some time and has a solid fan following. His time with Heyman could have been great had it not been for all the focus being on Brock. His work with the Real Americans was great as well but they stoped any momentum the dude had. He would have been a better choice for the MITB and would be great in a suited heel role.

[KIRA]

When you hear main event talent talk about putting together a match, they say you only need a few moves that people can identify, and you need a sequence of those moves that can be done with fire during a comeback.

Up until the last couple months, I don't think Cesaro had the right mix of moves to create a proper sequence to finish a match. He also was weak in terms of selling and playing babyface in peril. I think he's gotten better at it, and that's why you saw him getting more focus. But he got hurt so we're back to square one.

So for me the booking made sense, because you want to showcase his power in the ring to help him stand out. But at the same time if you push him hard before he's ready he'll fail

Difference to me with Roman is he has the in ring part of his game more polished. He could still add a move or two, but generally I feel like he's there. His issue is the long promo that top babyfaces traditionally are expected to do. He needs to get comfortable with that aspect or he will ultimately fall as a top face. Cesaro is even further behind Roman in terms of just flat out talking, nevermind cutting a 15 minute promo. Which is ANOTHER strike against Cesaro.

Cesaro reminds me a lot of Davey Boy Smith.

Oh and you never answered my R-truth question

as for Cesaro being less polished I'm gonna have to disagree its easy to be polished when there is nothing complicated about your in-ring game as for main-eventers walking through their matches sure they keep it simple but they have more in them Romans moveset isn't kept simple IT IS simple.

Also Dean should totally be in Roman's place if Ambrose was doing this storyline they are pushing with Reigns it would look so much better.

[Big Vic]

Bret was going to be on top as well. What's the difference?
I'm not talking about Bret.

[Big Vic]

When you hear main event talent talk about putting together a match, they say you only need a few moves that people can identify, and you need a sequence of those moves that can be done with fire during a comeback.

Up until the last couple months, I don't think Cesaro had the right mix of moves to create a proper sequence to finish a match. He also was weak in terms of selling and playing babyface in peril. I think he's gotten better at it, and that's why you saw him getting more focus. But he got hurt so we're back to square one.

So for me the booking made sense, because you want to showcase his power in the ring to help him stand out. But at the same time if you push him hard before he's ready he'll fail

Difference to me with Roman is he has the in ring part of his game more polished. He could still add a move or two, but generally I feel like he's there. His issue is the long promo that top babyfaces traditionally are expected to do. He needs to get comfortable with that aspect or he will ultimately fall as a top face. Cesaro is even further behind Roman in terms of just flat out talking, nevermind cutting a 15 minute promo. Which is ANOTHER strike against Cesaro.

Cesaro reminds me a lot of Davey Boy Smith.
You're right Roman Reigns is a much better wrestler than Cesaro.

[Simple Fan]

No he's not.

[Maluco]

Roman Reigns is getting his push because he looks good, nothing more, nothing less. We can all tall about strength and weaknesses, but they see a good looking guy who can promote the company in the media and be the face that people think of when they think of WWE. It's nothing to do with his strength or weaknesses as a wrestler or anything else.

I don't care if he is on top or whoever else is on top, I just want interesting stories and feuds.

[Maluco]

Also Sheamus is in a different league to Reigns in the ring. That is not Sheamus problem at all, he can go.

[KIRA]

You're right Roman Reigns is a much better wrestler than Sheamus.

(Sarcasm noted) A podcast I listened to recently brought up the fact that Sheamus actually is a good wrestler.

[KIRA]

Yep Vince can prattle on about dedication to what they do and blah blah but at the end of it all Vince doesn't give a shit about being awesome in the ring and on the mic and this is all you've wanted to do(Ambrose) he wants that former football guy/pro bodybuilder.

[#1-norm-fan]

Roman Reigns is getting his push because he looks good, nothing more, nothing less. We can all tall about strength and weaknesses, but they see a good looking guy who can promote the company in the media and be the face that people think of when they think of WWE. It's nothing to do with his strength or weaknesses as a wrestler or anything else.

I don't care if he is on top or whoever else is on top, I just want interesting stories and feuds.

Exactly this. Reigns looks like a guy who can make the company look good to a mainstream audience through talk show appearances and stuff as it's poster child. Unfortunately, that also requires a charisma, presence and likability to the common folk that he just doesn't have. That's why Cena was the perfect choice. He's got all the attributes that matter for a face of the company. It's just unfortunate that he's been booked very blandly pretty much his entire run so when he goes out and looks good in a public appearance to get eyes on the product, there's nothing there to keep eyes on it.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

If people were aware of his holes, they would understand how he is booked.

Just because he has holes doesn't mean he needs to be booked as an afterthought.

Don't get me wrong, the guy takes his part in featured bouts, but he's "Just another guy" and that is the main issue.

Just because guys aren't world champions or main event guys doesn't mean they need to be essentially put in a spot where they can just be interchangeable with literally anyone else on the roster.

Cesaro needs to get a clean win over a legit talent (Not a world title win, but a "rub" ) and from there, it doesn't mean he goes and wins a championship, it just means he's a guy that it actually means something to feud with, and he can be featured in intense non world title programs, instead of wrestler a facing wrestler b.

You have an incredibly narrow viewpoint on this stuff, or at the very least, assume we all do, which makes you rather insufferable.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Cesaro I would say is put in featured bouts, but never actually FEATURED in a bout.

[Emperor Smeat]

Had they not bungled his post-Mania push, Ceasro could easily have been a cornerstone of the mid-card or viable main event star by now. Pairing him with Heyman as a manager was the best to cover his weakness with promos while having the signature moment from the Battle Royale should have been the start of something bigger.

Instead the WWE squandered both for no real reason. Even when it looked like Ceasro was on track again to be a potential big star, the WWE squashed that too since they didn't have an active hand in it.

Reigns could end up as an absolute failure as a top star but WWE wouldn't care since they could just treat him as another Orton or Batista. Both failed as possible mega stars but kept getting big chances due to their hand picked status. Same for Sheamus and Del Rio being a lot lower than what the WWE wished they'd be as stars.

[Savio]

You're right Roman Reigns is a much better wrestler than Sheamus.

Totally meant Cesaro.... dunno why i typed Sheamus

[Blonde Moment]

If people were aware of his holes, they would understand how he is booked.
Here is the thing that you are glossing over. With Cesaro the holes are such that they can be easily filled in provided you wish to make the effort to do so, much like they are doing with Reigns right now.

Cesaro would have been a better fit for the Authority rather than Sheamus just based on looks alone. Throw in his ring ability and he can work with pretty much anyone and make them look like a credible threat in the ring. The only reason Sheamus fits is storyline wise he is easier to manipulate, that is it. Sheanus should be the awkward face chasing Cesaro but just coming up short.

[KIRA]

Cynick, another huge problem Roman has is Vince I know you think the guy walks on water but he's just gotten old and ridiculous.
He seems to think that we are all stupid and he doesn't realize that the audience does not consist of a bunch of easily lead rubes like back in the day.(And what Simple Plan said earlier was accurate some people don't give kids enough credit they are smarter than you like to think)
Look at Roman in the rumble and how badly Vince's attempts to manipulate the crowd in to cheering using the Rock failed.(I was so proud of the crowd for that)
He likes to claim he listens to the fans but the truth is his mindset is "You don't like what think you like, I tell you what you like" And in this day and age that just won't fly. Trying to force a relationship with Reigns that fans clearly don't want is doomed to fail.

[Rammsteinmad]

I feel bad for Roman Reigns, because he's certainly not a slouch, he works hard, seems like a genuinely nice guy, but he's been put in a situation where it's more-or-less gonna be impossible to sincerely win over anyone over the age of 12. Pretty much all his angles and storylines since the SHIELD split have been so boring and predictable. It's horrible to watch.

[Rammsteinmad]

Someone said on here recently, and this isn't an exact quote but it seems pretty realistic, something along the lines of "Vince would rather have 2/3 of an arena full with his guy, than a full arena of guys he didn't pick."

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Is Cesaro's sexual orientation keeping him from Main Event status?

Isn't he bangin' Sara Del Ray on the regular?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah losing to Taker and Shawn really helped his value on his way to WCW.

Oh wait, it's a work and everyone knows it. He still drew fine because he's talented.

When the chips were down, Nash was a pro.

But I know, the dirt sheets say he killed WCW, so we gotta all hate him.

There is literally a thread called nashvember in here. You dong nut. Most people here love nash. What unmerciful shit are you talking?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Tho for you to highlight cesaros holes and almost act as tho Nash has none comes as no surprise since you talk nonsense

[Innovator]

The only hole in Nash's game was underestimating his drawing power and sticking to arenas. Stadiums wouldn't been more appropriate.

[McLegend]

Could Nash put 200,000 in Cowboy's Stadium?

[Big Vic]

500,000

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I mean his.main hole was he just gave too much.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>At an indy show in my hometown this weekend, Nash/Hall/X-Pac are charging $65 to take a group photo with them. By comparison, a front row ticket to the actual show (which you'd have to buy separately) is $50.

They are still underselling themselves.</font>

[Shadrick]

cynick, send me pics

[Mr. Nerfect]

Most people on here cant see the larger picture.

Sting vs Hunter at Mania was used to sell future Monday Night Wars programming on WWE Network. Thats why they involved NWO (representing WCW and DX representing WWE). From thats standpoint alone it made sense for Hunter to win, because WWE won the war.

BEYOND THAT, you want to keep Hunter strong because he's going to work with Rollins at some point. And further, the story they were telling between Hunter (the teacher) and Rollins (the student), it hurts the story if Hunter looks weak right off the bat.

I personally dont think there was huge money in other Sting matches. I could be wrong, but the guy was in TNA for years, and its not like TNA ever had a really successful PPV that he was a part of. So I dont see where the evidence is that Sting was big time player. Thats the disconnect with some of you guys, you see Sting on the level of guys like Brock, Rock or Hunter, where I dont think the average fan does.

Sigh, one last time:

* It shouldn't have been used for that reason. Triple H was the heel; Sting was the face. The WWE vs. WCW thing doesn't make sense. If you defend what happens without acknowledging what shouldn't have happened, then you're not seeing as big a picture as you think you are, chum.

* Triple H is forever strong. He's not losing to JTG on Superstars.

* The fans do see Sting on that level -- your own argument works against you. That's why people care so much that the WWE fucked it up.

* If your modern 8-year old WWE fan doesn't? You MAKE them. It's fucking storytelling.

[Mr. Nerfect]

To play devils advocate, people on here do seem to take their favourites and when they don't get pushed to the moon, they chalk it up to creative bring inept. You rarely hear about the fact that Cesaro has holes in his game.

People talk about Cesaro's holes all the time. It doesn't mean he wasn't booked shitty.

[The CyNick]

People talk about Cesaro's holes all the time. It doesn't mean he wasn't booked shitty.

He wasn't booked shitty

You do understand is a big deal to just be on RAW every week, right?

[The CyNick]

Sigh, one last time:

* It shouldn't have been used for that reason. Triple H was the heel; Sting was the face. The WWE vs. WCW thing doesn't make sense. If you defend what happens without acknowledging what shouldn't have happened, then you're not seeing as big a picture as you think you are, chum.

* Triple H is forever strong. He's not losing to JTG on Superstars.

* The fans do see Sting on that level -- your own argument works against you. That's why people care so much that the WWE fucked it up.

* If your modern 8-year old WWE fan doesn't? You MAKE them. It's fucking storytelling.

So does that mean a heel can never beat a babyface in a big match?

Why would you invest an HHH loss for Sting, who at best would work 3-5 more matches in his career that are going to be throwaway matches. On the other hand you can use Sting, who has a name, create a special moment (Sting's Mania debut and the NWO v DX thing), sell the Monday Night Wars show on the Network, and keep HHH strong to eventually mean more when Rollins beats him?

It baffles me why people can't see the larger picture. I mean I know the reason. It's HHH, so you people think you have to hate anytime he goes over. It gets tiresome, but it is what it is

[Simple Fan]

We see the larger picture, were telling you the larger picture is stupid. You have a guy in Sting that could have been put over by HHH to then put over Rollins. Then you have Rollins vs HHH start from Rollins believing he is better than HHH because he could beat Sting and HHH couldn't.

The way it went down was just a waste of Sting, HHH, The NWO, and DX. It did nothing for Rollins as Sting had not been booked properly enough for that match to even matter let alone the fact that he just jobbed to Cena. All in all 2015 has been a pretty bad year as far as booking goes for WWE.

[Simple Fan]

Also I have no problem with HHH going over when its right for a story but him going over Sting wasn't one of those stories.

[Shadrick]

cynick, pics

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

So does that mean a heel can never beat a babyface in a big match?

Why would you invest an HHH loss for Sting, who at best would work 3-5 more matches in his career that are going to be throwaway matches. On the other hand you can use Sting, who has a name, create a special moment (Sting's Mania debut and the NWO v DX thing), sell the Monday Night Wars show on the Network, and keep HHH strong to eventually mean more when Rollins beats him?

It baffles me why people can't see the larger picture. I mean I know the reason. It's HHH, so you people think you have to hate anytime he goes over. It gets tiresome, but it is what it is

I guess this guy doesn't read James Steele posts.

[KIRA]

Yep people hate HHH's guts thats why they heap endless praise on his show that's why we can't wait till Vince leaves and that's why Squared circle sent the guy a fruit basket pure, unbridled hatred of the IWC.

[Damian Rey]

Remember when people on the board were thinking if and actually liking the idea of Triple H getting the strap going to Mania 30 to be the one to put over Daniel Bryan. Such hatred.

[The CyNick]

Bret proposed losing to anybody, including Shawn, once that two day period in Canada was over with. Bret handing the belt over was a suggestion that Vince agreed to, not an order, Vince had the same right to veto that Bret did, they could have worked out a better plan if he wanted to. Bret suggested it because his leaving got out in newspapers, hotlines and the internet anyway, and Vince agreed that since people knew anyway, it didn't matter if Bischoff announced it. I don't see how any of this is Vince backed into a corner.



This is an absolutely absurd comparison. It's not even remotely the same thing. Bret signed a huge deal because his value to his new employer was largely based on his strength in the Canadian market, which WCW had historically never done well in. Nash's value at Mania 12 is a wrestler on a wrestling show. Bret's value in Canada was his entire selling point from a negotiating perspective, and since he added reasonable creative control to specifically avoid being devalued on the way out, Bret saw dropping the belt in Canada to the guy who picked his nose with and fucked the Canadian flag as potentially damaging to his value. Anybody that argues against it using the "well what if I don't job in America" is either a complete idiot, or so badly want to be anti-Bret that they are flagrantly ignoring the obvious. Bret put that creative control clause in so he couldn't be downgraded. They put him in a position to be potentially downgraded. He suggested losing elsewhere where it wouldn't be so damaging.

And of all the fucking people to make a comparison to, Nash, a guy who refused to job tons of times for no rhyme or reason other than he didn't want to.

To me, this isnt a debate about what was legally acceptable. Essentially they both entered into a stupid agreement in which the most likely outcome would be a stalemate. The issue to me is whether Vince felt like he had to do what he did. To me, listening to the position of both parties, I feel like Vince's position was far more logical. The story of Bret leaving was already out. Fans at the house shows prior to Survivor Series knew he was leaving. Eric already had a track record, and its hard to imagine he would not have went on TV the Monday following Survivor Series and said "I just signed their champion". He didnt need Bret to be there. He didnt need Bret to dump the title in the trash. The damage would have been done with one promo - WCW is where the elite talent are, as evidence by their champion coming over here. So Bret's amazing suggestions, were worthless. The title had to be moved to Shawn at Survivor Series.

The idea that Bret was signed by WCW only because he was Canadian is absurd. The idea that Bret losing one match in Canada would result in him being any less of a draw in Canada is absurb. The idea that WCW had some grand scheme to open up Canada is absurd. How many events did WCW end up running in Canada? Bret was a MUCH bigger star thanks to what Vince did at Survivor Series, you would think WCW would have used Bret to sell out every city in Canada. They didnt, because WWE was always #1 in Canada. Bret leaving wasn't going to change that.

From what I've read over the years, Bret was one of the biggest headaches to deal with because he was such a master of the political game. But he never gets accused of it like guys like Hogan and Nash do. Bret is an egomaniac who thought the country would shut down if he lost a fucking worked fight in his home country. He's delusional.

As I said before, Nash did the right thing on his way out and Bret didnt. Nash was asked to put over two top guys multiple times on his way out. He did it, and did it with a smile on his face. Bret was asked to lose ONE match, and refused because he didnt like the guy across the ring from him. What a baby!

[The CyNick]

We see the larger picture, were telling you the larger picture is stupid. You have a guy in Sting that could have been put over by HHH to then put over Rollins. Then you have Rollins vs HHH start from Rollins believing he is better than HHH because he could beat Sting and HHH couldn't.

The way it went down was just a waste of Sting, HHH, The NWO, and DX. It did nothing for Rollins as Sting had not been booked properly enough for that match to even matter let alone the fact that he just jobbed to Cena. All in all 2015 has been a pretty bad year as far as booking goes for WWE.

Wasnt a waste at all. Every report I read was that people enjoyed the surprise of seeing those guys live. Made for a special moment.

The storyline with Rollins doesnt work if HHH is constantly losing. He just came off a year where he did nothing but count lights - against Bryan and The Shield. At some point he needed to get his heat back if he's going to be setting a bar for Rollins to live up to as champion. The payoff for a HHH v Rollins match would have been a Mania caliber match. The payoff for Sting (had he won) vs Rollins would have been at best a B show like Extreme Rules.

[The CyNick]

cynick, pics

lol its my New Year's Resolution to consider positing them.

[The CyNick]

Yep people hate HHH's guts thats why they heap endless praise on his show that's why we can't wait till Vince leaves and that's why Squared circle sent the guy a fruit basket pure, unbridled hatred of the IWC.

People love HHH the NXT guy, but hate HHH the in ring WWE performer. Well, that is when he wins. God forbid the guy wins a match.

[Simple Fan]

I wanted HHH to beat Bryan at Mania and have a Evolution main event, but that's just because I couldn't stand Daniel Bryan.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

People love HHH the NXT guy, but hate HHH the in ring WWE performer. Well, that is when he wins. God forbid the guy wins a match.

Yeah he's really hard done by

[The CyNick]

I wanted HHH to beat Bryan at Mania and have a Evolution main event, but that's just because I couldn't stand Daniel Bryan.

Which is fine, but puts you in the minority. I'm just saying most people get their backs up against the wall when he wins a match.

[The CyNick]

Yeah he's really hard done by

Who said he is?

He's a multi millionaire and will inherit a billion dollar business. He doesn't care if those types of fans hate him.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Which brings me to my next question. Defend HHH beating Punk during the summer of punk when there was no reason for H to win.

Well no reason other than the reason you will surely make up.

[BigCrippyZ]

Which brings me to my next question. Defend HHH beating Punk during the summer of punk when there was no reason for H to win.

Well no reason other than the reason you will surely make up.

Oh you don't know. The legend... HHH... the guy who feuded with top guys like Rock, Austin, Taker, HBK, Cena and Lesnar and essentially retired Mick Foley and is considered by most to be one of the top superstars of the Attitude Era... he needed that win to get his heat back, or maintain his heat... or something...

:roll: :lol:

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Well yeah he needed to look strong for his feud against Kevin Nash.

[Ultra Mantis]

How does Sting beating HHH hurt HHH? If your long term goal is HHH vs Rollins, you can still have Rollins go over Sting, who now looks a bit more credible challenging for a world title in 2015 because he beat The Game and then have Rollins work that into his HHH feud, simple jab like "Well I beat Sting, did you?" and you have a plot point there. Instead neither guy gets any kind of rub from Sting because he's evidently a massive jobber and there's nothing to draw from. Filler. HHH is the heel authority figure, he's not going to lose his heat just because he loses his one match a year after going over nearly every week.

[The CyNick]

Which brings me to my next question. Defend HHH beating Punk during the summer of punk when there was no reason for H to win.

Well no reason other than the reason you will surely make up.

I'm sure you like CM Punk and buy into his own hype, but he never reached the level HHH did, so I have no problem with HHH going over Punk because H is the bigger star.

If you look at the Mania plans for that year, that was heading into the Taker-HHH Hell in a Cell Match. You need HHH to be strong for that. That was the period where it could be argued The Streak was the biggest thing on the show, bigger than the title. I believe that was also the show with Cena-Rock, so at best Punk was going to be in the #3 hole.

So yeah, from a pecking order standpoint, it made perfect sense. The loss didnt hurt Punk in the slightest.

[The CyNick]

How does Sting beating HHH hurt HHH? If your long term goal is HHH vs Rollins, you can still have Rollins go over Sting, who now looks a bit more credible challenging for a world title in 2015 because he beat The Game and then have Rollins work that into his HHH feud, simple jab like "Well I beat Sting, did you?" and you have a plot point there. Instead neither guy gets any kind of rub from Sting because he's evidently a massive jobber and there's nothing to draw from. Filler. HHH is the heel authority figure, he's not going to lose his heat just because he loses his one match a year after going over nearly every week.

First, HHH had lost multiple matches prior to The Sting match. You can only take so many consecutive losses before you lose shine.

Second, the storyline with Rollins was HHH is like having Tom Brady as a mentor. You are trying to live up to someone who has achieved everything there is to achieve. If HHH had lost to Sting, and Rollins beat Sting, you are telling a different story. HHH isnt Tom Brady, he's like Phillip Rivers, good, but not great. So, great, Rollins can beat someone who is above average. Thats not nearly as effective as him beating someone who is presented as a true legend.

Third, Sting wasnt going to be around. If Sting was scheduled to work 6 months, and go on the road, sure it would make sense. But he was never going to do that.

[KIRA]

I'm sure you like CM Punk and buy into his own hype, but he never reached the level HHH did, so I have no problem with HHH going over Punk because H is the bigger star.

If you look at the Mania plans for that year, that was heading into the Taker-HHH Hell in a Cell Match. You need HHH to be strong for that. That was the period where it could be argued The Streak was the biggest thing on the show, bigger than the title. I believe that was also the show with Cena-Rock, so at best Punk was going to be in the #3 hole.

So yeah, from a pecking order standpoint, it made perfect sense. The loss didnt hurt Punk in the slightest.

Why is it you think that anytime HHH wins we lose our shit?This isn't hard to understand, when it makes sense for him to win you won't hear a peep from all but the most anti of HHH fans. But the situations we've all pointed to it makes NO sense that he walked away with a victory that does not equate to "we never want him to win a match because he is wrestling's Satan " And as for HHH v Taker no one wanted to see that as it had been done already(didn't mean much then and meant nothing now and HHH isn't on the level of an HBK v Taker or Sting v Taker.

[The CyNick]

Why is it you think that anytime HHH wins we lose our shit?This isn't hard to understand, when it makes sense for him to win you won't hear a peep from all but the most anti of HHH fans. But the situations we've all pointed to it makes NO sense that he walked away with a victory that does not equate to "we never want him to win a match because he is wrestling's Satan " And as for HHH v Taker no one wanted to see that as it had been done already(didn't mean much then and meant nothing now and HHH isn't on the level of an HBK v Taker or Sting v Taker.

Did you actually see HHH vs Taker? Crowd seemed to enjoy it. Mania did a big buyrate.

Curious to see where you got your "no one wanted to see that" information from.

I just explained why HHH beating Punk made sense. #2 match participant beats #3 match participant.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I'm sure you like CM Punk and buy into his own hype, but he never reached the level HHH did, so I have no problem with HHH going over Punk because H is the bigger star.

If you look at the Mania plans for that year, that was heading into the Taker-HHH Hell in a Cell Match. You need HHH to be strong for that. That was the period where it could be argued The Streak was the biggest thing on the show, bigger than the title. I believe that was also the show with Cena-Rock, so at best Punk was going to be in the #3 hole.

So yeah, from a pecking order standpoint, it made perfect sense. The loss didnt hurt Punk in the slightest.

lmfao

[BigCrippyZ]

I just explained why HHH beating Punk made sense. #2 match participant beats #3 match participant.

So wait, with the exception of Cena, no current main event guys can beat the previous generations main event guys?

Yeah, that will help get new talent over with the crowd and over the hump.

[KIRA]

Did you actually see HHH vs Taker? Crowd seemed to enjoy it. Mania did a big buyrate.



Yea they came to see Taker fight HHH again not John Cena facing the The Rock for the first time lol.

big byrate all thanks to HHH.

[James Steele]

Are you seriously downplaying the awesomeness of the HIAC match at WM28?

[KIRA]

No. It was fun to watch but neither of his encounters meant much when compared to HBK v Taker which was built as two men with something to lose and HBK desperate to do the seemingly impossible.

HHH v Taker first encounter was about HHH defending the honor of his fallen man-crush
the second was about Taker showing his dominance.

Neither had much weight add to that the fact that he has in fact beaten HHH before and going up against a Cena V Rock match well.....

[Damian Rey]

Lol big buyrate. I guess the Rock wrestling for the first time at Mania in 8 years and closing the show for the first time since WM17 (11years) wasn't the draw there. Jesus.

[Damian Rey]

I also can't see the value in having CM Punk, the hottest act they had that year, losing to a pretty much semi retired Triple H, who shortly went right back on the shelf after winning the match. Completely needless. Punk was clearly the number 2 in the company. What logic is there to have him lose on a B show to a semi retired wrestler? Where does that forward the business on a budding star the company was in desperate need of?

[Ultra Mantis]

First, HHH had lost multiple matches prior to The Sting match. You can only take so many consecutive losses before you lose shine.

Second, the storyline with Rollins was HHH is like having Tom Brady as a mentor. You are trying to live up to someone who has achieved everything there is to achieve. If HHH had lost to Sting, and Rollins beat Sting, you are telling a different story. HHH isnt Tom Brady, he's like Phillip Rivers, good, but not great. So, great, Rollins can beat someone who is above average. Thats not nearly as effective as him beating someone who is presented as a true legend.

Third, Sting wasnt going to be around. If Sting was scheduled to work 6 months, and go on the road, sure it would make sense. But he was never going to do that.

I have no idea who Tom Brady or Phillip Rivers are, but a single loss to the biggest babyface in the history of WCW is not going to make Triple H go from GOAT to meh. You seem to not place any value at all on Sting, so please explain the genius reasoning behind bringing him in at all.

HHH goes over strong on TV every week, it doesn't matter that he loses his Mania moment because it doesn't change that he's in charge and he usually gets the upper hand and his losses don't even matter. He's not an active wrestler, he doesn't need to win matches or even wrestle to get shine. That makes about as much sense as when they kept putting Cole over Lawler and then that was the end of that dumb commentator feud, no pay off for the babyface and all that heel build for nothing.

[The CyNick]

lmfao

What you meant to say was "I lost another round".

[The CyNick]

So wait, with the exception of Cena, no current main event guys can beat the previous generations main event guys?

Yeah, that will help get new talent over with the crowd and over the hump.

I may need to learn another language to help get my point across.

WWE had a Mania card. HHH was in a more high profile match than Punk. Therefore you should keep the semi main as strong as possible. That meant HHH over Punk.

[The CyNick]

Yea they came to see Taker fight HHH again not John Cena facing the The Rock for the first time lol.

big byrate all thanks to HHH.

Where did I say it was all thanks to HHH?

In fact I explicitly pointed out he was in the #2 match on the show. Of course Rock-Cena was the bigger draw. But more than one match contributes to the buyrate. HHH-Taker was a big part of the success.

[BigCrippyZ]

I may need to learn another language to help get my point across.

WWE had a Mania card. HHH was in a more high profile match than Punk. Therefore you should keep the semi main as strong as possible. That meant HHH over Punk.

You're telling me a legend like HHH going up against another legend like Undertaker at the company's biggest show of the year wouldn't have been enough of a draw? HHH needed to go over CM Punk (who was probably the second biggest star in the company at the time) prior otherwise the HHH v. Taker match wouldn't have been any good?

What does that say not only about Vince & co. beliefs in HHH and Undertaker being able to build to a match and ability to draw? As I have a tremendous respect for HHH, Taker and Punk, I happen to think that HHH vs Undertaker would've been just fine had HHH lost to someone on the same level as Punk prior. If HHH really needed that victory to help keep the Mania card as strong as possible, that's probably not a good thing.

[Big Vic]

The reason why the WrestleMania 30 buyrate was so low was because HHH lost to Curtis Axel back in June.

[BigCrippyZ]

The reason why the WrestleMania 30 buyrate was so low was because HHH lost to Curtis Axel back in June.

Exactly! If HHH hadn't lost to Axel that one time on RAW, HHH's status as a legend and drawing power would've been secure and WM30 would've been way more successful.

It had nothing to do with the predictability of the likely outcome of the main event after WWE backed themselves into a corner creatively with Bryan, the lack of CM Punk, etc.

:roll: :lol:

[Damian Rey]

Where did I say it was all thanks to HHH?

Did you actually see HHH vs Taker? Crowd seemed to enjoy it. Mania did a big buyrate.

Certainly you can see how misleading that last statement could be.

[The CyNick]

You're telling me a legend like HHH going up against another legend like Undertaker at the company's biggest show of the year wouldn't have been enough of a draw? HHH needed to go over CM Punk (who was probably the second biggest star in the company at the time) prior otherwise the HHH v. Taker match wouldn't have been any good?

What does that say not only about Vince & co. beliefs in HHH and Undertaker being able to build to a match and ability to draw? As I have a tremendous respect for HHH, Taker and Punk, I happen to think that HHH vs Undertaker would've been just fine had HHH lost to someone on the same level as Punk prior. If HHH really needed that victory to help keep the Mania card as strong as possible, that's probably not a good thing.

Its a debate that I'm sure was had internally.

Traditional booking would state you want the guys in your top matches to be strong heading into the big show. Especially in this case when Taker had already beat HHH the year prior. HHH was working a limited schedule, so if his big matches for the year were constant losses, it hurts his credibility.

Vince had tons of faith in HHH and Taker, that's why they were positioned ahead of Punk on the show and why HHH went over Punk.

[The CyNick]

Certainly you can see how misleading that last statement could be.

Honestly only a moron would equate that to saying it was ALL HHH.

[Damian Rey]

So exactly what was that line meant to convey? If you're not trying to tie buyrate into the match, why mention buyrate?

[Big Vic]

To be fair to HHH, CM Punk loses to all returning legends.

[Big Vic]

CM Punk will come back to job to Sting.

[BigCrippyZ]

I'm sure you like CM Punk and buy into his own hype, but he never reached the level HHH did

That's because even though he held the title for as long as he did, with perhaps his feud with Cena, Punk was never really given those same great types of well written, intense and often personal feuds/story lines that helped put guys like Foley, HHH, Angle, Rock and Austin over the top.

Partly because for most of his run, only Cena was on Punk's level from a full-time active competitor (with exceptions of the occasional returning legend or authority figure) to feud with, which is because the writing/booking was and has been so horrendous that not many new stars were on the same level as Punk for him to feud with. The other part is even if the talent was occasionally on the same level to feud with Punk, most of the time, the writing and booking was so inadequate that neither Punk nor who he was feuding with got any real benefit from it.

Compare guys like Austin, HHH, Foley, Rock, Angle, etc. going over one another and building each other up, as well as guys like Taker, Kane, Jericho, Vince, etc. Not that Punk reached their level, but Punk was never given the same opportunity and chances to shine that those guys repeatedly were given. Sure Punk may have been given a long title run but in terms of quality of writing, booking, etc., Punk never stood a chance to get over the hump. Much like guys like Reigns, Wyatt, etc. are struggling with today.

[The CyNick]

So exactly what was that line meant to convey? If you're not trying to tie buyrate into the match, why mention buyrate?

It was a good build involving a stip people cared about, with characters that were over, so I believe it helped draw the number. It wasn't the sole factor or even the biggest fair, but it was a factor. Much bigger factor than Punk's contribution to the show.

[Simple Fan]

I feel Punk/Taker was a bigger draw for its Mania than HHH/Taker was for its. .

[Simple Fan]

The reason why the Mania 30 buyrate was so low was because HHH lost to Curtis Axel back in June.

Your damn right, Axel should have been in Bryans spot.

[The CyNick]

I feel Punk/Taker was a bigger draw for its Mania than HHH/Taker was for its. .

For me I never thought Taker would lose to Punk, with HHH I thought there was a chance.

[KIRA]

Regarding the Triple H thing Cynick you pretty much did what Fox News does to it's viewers that is you made it seem like you were drawing correlation between events (HHH v Taker) without actually saying it then when I filled in the blanks you turned around and said you never actually said Triple H v Taker was the reason for the buyrate even though its implied in your wording then you say one would have to be a moron to get HHH v Taker= $ from what you wrote.

[The CyNick]

Regarding the Triple H thing Cynick you pretty much did what Fox News does to it's viewers that is you made it seem like you were drawing correlation between events (HHH v Taker) without actually saying it then when I filled in the blanks you turned around and said you never actually said Triple H v Taker was the reason for the buyrate even though its implied in your wording then you say one would have to be a moron to get HHH v Taker= $ from what you wrote.

I honestly dont know how to help you man. If you got me literally listing out the Mania matches and putting Taker-HHH as NUMBER TWO and then claiming I was trying to say HHH-Taker was the sole or main reason for the number. Like I said, I cant help ya brotha.