Your most "Against The Grain" opinion on wrestling

[hb2k]

So for this week's podcast, we're looking to talk about viewpoints contrary to popular opinion, and are looking to get some feedback.

What do you see as something most people enjoyed (a wrestler, a show, an angle, a gimmick, etc) but didn't click with you at all? What was it and why didn't it work for you?

This can go vice versa as well, did something really click with you but is largely panned by others? And why did you like it so much?

As always the best contributions will be read on the show and you'll be credited accordingly - so what's your most "against the grain" opinion?

EDIT - Part 1 of our shows on your "Against The Grain" opinions, featuring many of your contributions, is now online and available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/sk26vj/SCG_Radio_93_-_Going_Against_The_Grain_Part_1.mp3

[Heyman]

I was a fan of the stable X-Factor, and loved X-Factor's theme music. :nono:

I was also a huge fan of Austin's heel turn and heel run, and would have kept Austin heel until Wrestlemania 18 (doing the job to face Angle). Most people felt that converting Austin back into a face after Survivor Series 2001 was good for business (due to Austin's failure as a heel up until that point), but I would argue that the WWE had reached a point of no return (i.e. even if you turned Austin back into a face, he wouldn't be as big as he once was.........along with the fact that heel Austin would've been far more credible than heel Jericho in terms of doing a meaningful job at Mania').

[Black Widow]

Fuck Rusev and the fan's that find him entertaining.

New Day is Lame as hell.

[Lock Jaw]

I find RVD extremely terrible. I will preface this by saying I never saw him in ECW. I did see his entire WWE career, though.... and it seems to me that all he ever did was coast on whatever the hell he did in ECW to get so popular. Fact was, he just was not that good. Repetitive matches, some of the weakest punches ever, and found his whole persona just so "meh".

"Raises my ire" when I see guys continually praise him, and I'm just here going "He was not good. At all. Maybe the first two or three times I saw him he was exciting because he was new, but after that, he was just so lame"

Good for him for making a career out of coasting on ECW, though.

[Simple Fan]

Easy, Daniel Bryan. Never was a fan of his as American Dragon and still think he had no business anywhere near the main event in WWE. His matches bore me and he his mic work is sub par in my opinion. Will always rank WM 30 as the worst WM ever because of him. I guess my biggest problem with his is I just couldn't see him a realistic competitor to guys like Orton, Batista, HHH, or Cena.

[Lock Jaw]

Also, I did not enjoy Stone Cold Steve Austin as a face. I enjoyed him in his feud with Bret Hart, and then kind of adopted Bret's hatred for him. He wasn't a role model or anyone to look up to, and I was disgusted by him being the face of the company. Thought it was "cool" when he was a bad guy vs Bret, but as the good guy, no way.

I started to enjoy him again after he turned heel and had his antics with Vince/Angle. Then promptly did not enjoy him once he was a face again.

[Simple Fan]

As for vice versa I would have to go with TNA. I watch TNA every week and enjoy it just as much if not better than Raw some weeks. I have different standards when it comes to WWE and TNA and I feel a lot of people hold them to the same, which is ok. I expect WWE to be great every week, they are at the top so I expect to be entertained to the fullest. With shows like ROH and Impact I don't have those high standards but they often out perform what standards I do have for them. I really like TNAs roster and they have been pushing the right talent for about 2 years now. They are also developing some really young guys and moving them up the card lately.

[broverboard]

I really really hated Christian and I'm starting to feel the same way about Dolph Ziggler.

Al Snow with Head was more entertaining than Mankind with Mr Socko.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I like Sasha Banks as a worker but I do not dig her boss gimmick, and don't rate her character work minus the genuine emotion displayed in her title victory. I don't understand her character. It just feels forced... She's trying to act like this badass but she's doing these weird dance taunts and head movements. It seems like an act, which it shouldn't. I feel like she's just one step away from talk to the hand, but the face don't understand. Very lame.

[Innovator]

Ambrose, in his current incarnation, doesn't do it for me.

[Emperor Smeat]

Still not a big fan of Cena even after the US Open Challenge series. Most of it is due to WWE's booking of him than anything related to Cena himself.

[Exyle]

Sheamus was and still is one of my favorites. I think he gets way too much shit, and I don't think he looks stupid with the mohawk/beard combo.

He's just a great smashmouth/brawler type, and while I agree that his face run with the whole 1-800-FELLA shtick was bland as fuck, he's back to his true form now. Badass heel Celtic Warrior Sheamus is his perfect role.

Oh, and his new music (Hellfire) is one of the best in WWE.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Kerwin White seriously had some incredible potential as a gimmick if they would have let it breathe a bit and let it take a dark turn to where Kerwin would start claiming discrimination when things didn't go his way. I really wish that would have panned out.

[XL]

I prefer Biker Taker to Deadman Taker. There, I said it.

[Ruien]

Becky Lynch is average.

[drave]

Never saw ANYTHING in Christian, except the blue dot. Edge too for that matter.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Kerwin White seriously had some incredible potential as a gimmick if they would have let it breathe a bit and let it take a dark turn to where Kerwin would start claiming discrimination when things didn't go his way. I really wish that would have panned out.

Yeah, was pretty great. Unfortunately, I think it was probably Eddie's untimely death just a few months after the debut of his gimmick as White that caused him to go back to just being plain old Chavo.

UsfztADiH9M

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I prefer Biker Taker to Deadman Taker. There, I said it.

Heel biker taker was awesome. Face biker taker was a tosser

[Lock Jaw]

Heel biker taker was awesome. Face biker taker was a tosser

Agree with this sentiment.

[Fignuts]

I am a fan of the Triple H run of doom with the heavyweight title that everyone seems to hate. It ceryainly had its flaws. Overly long promos, the first Steiner match, Katie vick. But the thing that everyone sseems to overlook, is that run established credibility to a title that was little more than a joke, thanks to wcw's dying days fuckery. Benoit's WM 20 victory to obtain it would not have been as epic as it was without Triple H's long reign with that title. It probably wouldn't have even main evented.

On tne flipside, I have to echo Lockjaw's thouhts on RVD. I loved him in ECW, but when he got to the wwe, outside of specialty matches, he just did the same routine every match. Just going tjrough thw motions. He started putting more effortmin when he became wwe champ, but that obviously disn't last long. Mystetio pulled the same thing in his final years in thw wwe, but at least he was entertaining for tje majority of his run.

[Fignuts]

Heel biker taker was awesome. Face biker taker was a tosser

Yeah, I dunno if this can even be considered against the grain.

Heel biker taker is universally praised I tjink.

[Fignuts]

Please excuse tje spelling errors caused by my shit tablet's keypad

[Fignuts]

god damn it THE not TJE

[drave]

sjit tablet keyboard*

[drave]

The Miz is one of the greatest heels of his generation.

[CWK]

Gotta say the CM Punk "leaving the WWE with the title" storyline from 2011. WWE blew that one big time. Could've made Punk a Mount Rushmore type of megastar. Would've been one of the top angles on history if done right

[Lock Jaw]

What is against the grain about that? I think it would be more "against the grain" to say they did the right thing.

Which I think they did at the start. People said they shouldn't have brought him back so soon, I say screw that, it was right to bring him back. The angle only started going off the rails when it lead to a CM Punk vs Diesel feud that somehow lead to a Triple H vs Diesel match.

[The Condor]

I think that Eva Marie has an it factor that no diva since Trish, or maybe even Sable or Chyna, has had. She is a superstar waiting to happen, and the fact that she gets such passionate reactions is great because 75% of the roster gets crickets. I'm a BIG Eva Marie supporter.

[Emeye]

I actually can think of a lot, but my main one would have to be the general love for Dean Ambrose. I find his look, mic skills, gimmick, and in-ring ability all sub-par. I truly do. When I normally dislike a very liked wrestler, I can at least say that I understand why they could be appealing to others. But I truly do find everything about him not just "not great", but below average. Dean Ambrose should be a mid-card wrestler.

His look is about as bad as it gets - If he is to be the potential "top dog", him compaired to main eventers like HHH, Rock, Cena, etc, he looks like they just grabbed him from a booth in McDonalds. Since he isn't ripped, he should look tough/like he can kick my ass, but he doesn't. Guys like Austin for instance, they weren't ripped, but he still looked like he could kick someone's ass. Ambrose looks like he hasn't exercised in his life, and hasn't slept in weeks. Just doesn't look, healthy to me .... So, that leaves speed. HBK, Rollins, guys like that look like they have the speed to beat bigger guys. Ambrose looks like he has 0 quickness. The only credible champion that his appearance could be compared to off the top of my head is Foley. But Foley made up for that with ...

Mic skills. This is probably Ambrose's best feature, and I honestly even do find him to be below average here. I find him dull, and sometimes even corny when he cuts a promo. He doesn't, excite me, when he's on the mic.

His gimmick is meh to me. Foley was Mankind, Cactus Jack, Dude Love, even Mic Foley. When Foley was simply himself, that was enough. With Dean, not so much ... He's nothing really, he just came in with The Shield until they split, and that's about it. No idea about his backstory, which wouldn't matter if he had any type of character whatsoever. But he doesn't, he's just a wrestler. "The Lunatic Fringe" means nothing more than a bad nickname to me. I've yet to see him be much of lunatic, in a time where Jericho at his age, is the one taking thumbtack bumps. A lunatic is Brian Pillman, Roddy Piper. Not Dean Ambrose.

Lastly, in-ring skills. I'm sorry, I just don't see it. His best performances are average at best.

..... Other than my opposite opinion of Dean Ambrose I have a quite a few more. Just to throw some out, I first would say that I 100% agree with drave, Miz is the goods. I really think his current gimmick is his best and if pushed right could get over big as a heel.

Wasn't on the Daniel Bryan wagon. I enjoyed his in-ring work, but that's all. Found the Yes movement, and Team Hell No annoying. (Team Hell No is another one, it seemed everybody but me loved them). ... Ok that's enough for now. Great topic btw.

[Vastardikai]

Bray Wyatt will never be the top heel he could have been when he was first introduced. He is overrated as a talker, is almost always injured, and chases cheers too much to be a truly effective "Face of Fear."

[James Steele]

Triple H is one of the most versatile characters and in-ring performers in the history of wrestling. The metamorphosis of his career since the mid 90s all the way through today shows an incredible amount of range both as a heel and babyface as well as an infinite portfolio of tremendous matches with a litany of different types of talents. He couldn't carry Scott Steiner or Kevin Nash in 2003, but the only people who could in that era were Shawn Michaels and Eddie Guerrero. Triple H has been the undisputed #1 heel in the business while also having been a bigger babyface than the alleged "top guy" at WrestleManias a decade apart (WM22, WM32). He was able to seamlessly transition from a singles guy to a stable guy to a tag team guy and back again. He can be an effective badass heeland a chickenshit heel in the same segment. He consistently has provided that "epic" and "big match feel" to his matches for 17 years. The bulk of his greatest work has come after tearing his quad that came in the middle of his physical peak.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Triple H has been the undisputed #1 heel in the business while also having been a bigger babyface than the alleged "top guy" at WrestleManias a decade apart (WM22, WM32).

That's because he didn't do his job as a heel.

[James Steele]

I'd argue that he simply was the more over and respected wrestler due to being a bigger and true superstar. Was he a bad heel against Daniel Bryan? Mick Foley? Dean Ambrose? The Shield? Batista? Vince McMahon (1999)? Ric Flair? HBK? Undertaker? Should I keep mentioning his cornucopia of epic feuds?

At some point, it is the responsibility of the babyface to actually be over in order for the heel to get heat. When they cheer you getting bludgeoned with a sledgehammer, you are a very ineffective babyface.

[Mongo Lloyd]

Unpopular opinion? It's boring as shit.
The truth? It's boring as shit.

[Lock Jaw]

Owens/Jericho a great team

[Lock Jaw]

Going against the grain and posting about RAW in here

[Mongo Lloyd]

Jericho is boring as shit too. Oh look sickly tickly homosexual faggot just left me a red for for saying that.

[Tom Guycott]

I prefer Biker Taker to Deadman Taker. There, I said it.

Only if he faces Surfer Sting.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I'd argue that he simply was the more over and respected wrestler due to being a bigger and true superstar. Was he a bad heel against Daniel Bryan? Mick Foley? Dean Ambrose? The Shield? Batista? Vince McMahon (1999)? Ric Flair? HBK? Undertaker? Should I keep mentioning his cornucopia of epic feuds?

At some point, it is the responsibility of the babyface to actually be over in order for the heel to get heat. When they cheer you getting bludgeoned with a sledgehammer, you are a very ineffective babyface.

AJ Styles got more fans to boo him against John Cena. When HHH wrestled Roman Reigns, he portrayed and booked himself like a Stone Cold Steve Austin esque babyface, while constantly making Reigns look like a pussy.

Most of the guys you mentioned were fucking amazing babyfaces and fans would boo anyone against them. HHH is good and all, particularly mid-late 1999 til his quad injury, and certainly in spurts afterwards (but never to level of 1999-2001), but your hyperbole makes me think you want a job at WWE headquarters.

I give him a solid 4/10

[GD]

I came in to make bad Chris Benoit jokes. I composed myself and decided to delete my two paragraph post.

[Wishbone]

Kevin Nash is meh. He's far from terrible or anything, but the guy never really entertained me, and honestly I always felt he was overrated as all hell. He's also got a really weird looking mouth.

The Rock isn't as great as he's made out to be either. His face shtick is just copy-pasted every time he does it, and even as a heel I never really enjoyed him as much as other guys. Again, he wasn't terrible or anything, but he just didn't click with me the way he has with everyone else.

Sheamus is great. The guy could be a face of the company if they'd just book him correctly. I know everyone else is gonna say that's a lie, but I honestly believe that if his face run had been booked with him just being a badass that kicks the crap out of heels that deserve it or that no one else can beat he'd have gotten over big time. Also like someone else said his mohawk and beaded beard look was good in my opinion. The twirly mustache though? Not so much...

Nikki Bella, Maryse, and Eva Marie are not hot. I can hear the "you're a homo" comments coming already, but honestly they're not. They're dime a dozen plastic bimbos that are about as attractive as a barbie doll. I can see hotter chicks on literally any porn website for free.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Agree with you on Maryse and Eva Marie. About as cookie cutter as they come. Maryse also has complete and utter turn the channel heat. I can see Eva Marie possessing the same "charm".

[Tom Guycott]

I think that Eva Marie has an it factor that no diva since Trish, or maybe even Sable or Chyna, has had. She is a superstar waiting to happen, and the fact that she gets such passionate reactions is great because 75% of the roster gets crickets. I'm a BIG Eva Marie supporter.

Problem is, you're going to be waiting for a looooooong time. She's the drizzling shits, cringe inducing botches that could hurt who she's working (without the "mood lighting" excuse that the original Sin Cara had), and is shitty at selling from either overselling more than DZ to no-selling moves in the same match. And she's only gotten marginally better even after all the time and care they supposedly put into her.

If she were a man, I'd wager most of her supporters would have called for her to be future endeavored ages ago. If her only "IT" factor is tits and being an unlikable bitch on a reality show, there is a long line of potential women who could and likely should come in and take her place.

Or at the very least, cut their losses and make her a manager. Being an in-ring performer shouldn't be in the cards for her.

On Topic:

... I have similar feelings for everyone's favorite Irish girl.

Not that she's awful at wrestling related activity (don't just mean "workrate", folks) as "all red everything"; far from it. She's decent in the ring, but just insanely overrated/average. Hype music and a midriff. Matches are meh. Promos are meh. Yes, she's pretty. Yeah, you want to eat off her abs... but, really, is that all she's got? She's generic cereal in a fairly eye-pleasing box. She would have KILLED in the 90's, or any of those times where there was essentially no Women's/Diva's division outside of the champion. But as is in the current wave of "girls who can go" direction things are headed in, she's pretty much middle-of-the-road.

[Tom Guycott]

Agree with you on Maryse and Eva Marie. About as cookie cutter as they come. Maryse also has complete and utter turn the channel heat. I can see Eva Marie possessing the same "charm".

... though of the three (Nikki Bella was included as well), Maryse doesn't look AS fake. Still not on that bandwagon, though.

[BigCrippyZ]

JBL's world title run on Smackdown. Came outta nowhere. JBL essentially went from almost a jobber or a midcard hand at best to a main eventer with the title in almost no time.

[Tom Guycott]

Are you saying you hated it?

[BigCrippyZ]

Are you saying you hated it?

Hate is a strong word. Just that, especially at the time, it felt too rushed/forced and I couldn't get into it. Actually made me stop watching Smackdown because it felt so sudden and out of place. Still bugs me to this day, though I enjoy more now for what it was than I did at the time.

[BigCrippyZ]

Oh yeah... Miz is highly underrated by most IMO. Especially on the mic and as a heel character.

[Tom Guycott]

Hate is a strong word. Just that, especially at the time, it felt too rushed/forced and I couldn't get into it. Actually made me stop watching Smackdown because it felt so sudden and out of place. Still bugs me to this day, though I enjoy more now for what it was than I did at the time.

Okay, just wanted you to clarify. Wasn't really an opinion in your original statement, "against the grain" or otherwise... just an event and pretty much a fact.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

JBL's world title run on Smackdown. Came outta nowhere. JBL essentially went from almost a jobber or a midcard hand at best to a main eventer with the title in almost no time.

This is against the grain for tpww, but not anywhere else with half a mind for wrestling.

JBL was an effective character but not as a #straightouttanowhere world champion.

[Nicky Fives]

I've watched TNA ever since it started and most things haven't been as bad as many seem to make them out to be....

[Jari]

I prefer Biker Taker to Deadman Taker. There, I said it.

Particularly after losing the Streak to Brock Lesnar, I would have been much happier if Taker returned and played out the rest of his career as Biker Taker.

[The Condor]

Problem is, you're going to be waiting for a looooooong time. She's the drizzling shits, cringe inducing botches that could hurt who she's working (without the "mood lighting" excuse that the original Sin Cara had), and is shitty at selling from either overselling more than DZ to no-selling moves in the same match. And she's only gotten marginally better even after all the time and care they supposedly put into her.

Look how visceral your post was. You can't build heel heat like that in wrestling anymore, especially within the smark community. Wrestling isn't just about how many snowflakes a match can put up, it's about characters and stories, and Eva Marie has a bitch, entitled character down and will be an excellent heel foil for the face women, even if she is just doing jobs.

And as far as he in-ring work, I think she has improved markedly, and is probably better than most women on the roster beside the 4 NXT women. Her characer is, in my opinion, what Sasha's should have been since her call-up, and she does it better.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

It doesn't matter how visceral a reaction is, if it just means you're going to change the channel, because that's what I do when I see that loser on tv.

[Simple Fan]

I'm on the Eva bandwagon but I always have been. I think she's got it from a character standpoint. I haven't watched any of her NXT stuff so I don't know if she has improved any in the ring but she would be a great valet for a heel.

[Frank Drebin]

After seeing that bizarre "announcer" thing last week, they'll take her in one of two directions. Either they are going to lay on the vanity gimmick really hard and making her that much more of a heel or they know people are starting to like her because she's so bad that they're going to go over the top with it and force all sorts of what they think will be "fun-bad" parts to her that they suffer a "fandangoing" and people don't buy into it.

[Frank Drebin]

As to the original thread title, I am pro Eva, less enthusiastic on Becky than most but that's been said.

I'll say this: I like Michael Cole. I think he gets shit on alot because there are certain components of his job that his superiors require him to do that isn't his fault. He has to blurt out stuff Vince tells him to and tow the company line to an extreme because one false move or show of insubordination and he's done. Ever since they dropped the heel Cole thing which was awful and brought him back to a middle of the road play by play guy, he's been solid. Getting rid of King, Booker and now JBL have been great moves and have slowly brought the commenting team away from the forefront and more into the background of the show which is where it should be.

Cole is a pro and good at his job, but because he just does as he's told to do, people hate him for it.

[Jari]

I'll pitch my suggestion later but I've seen a lot of threads for this Podcast - what's the forum view on it? Any good?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Very.

[Lock Jaw]

On commentators, I will go against the grain and say that I still don't slobber over Mauro Ranallo like everyone else here seems to do. The content of what he says is good, but he really needs to work on his voice/presentation. A lot of the time he comes across as real "disingenuous sounding" like he is "putting on a radio voice".

He has already improved a lot from when he started (at which time he was completely unbearable), but he still needs to work at it.

[The Condor]

Eva Marie #brand wagon

[thekrow]

I always thought that Swede Savard was by far more talented than Matt Rage. Although Matt Rage is very talented, and is considered a true legend, I think Swede has always outdone him in both technical wrestling skills and charisma.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Can someone please ban thekrow

[Cool King]

I do not find Becky Lynch physically attractive.

[Cool King]

Or Sasha Banks for that matter.

[The Condor]

Or Sasha Banks for that matter.

Absolutely

[Frank Drebin]

You've always had terrible taste in women.

[thekrow]

I do not find Becky Lynch physically attractive.

http://i0.wp.com/www.wrestlefix.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/becky-lynch.jpg?resize=715%2C400

[Cool King]

http://oi59.tinypic.com/1p7cdh.jpg

[Lock Jaw]

First quality post by thekrow

[Tom Guycott]

As to the original thread title, I am pro Eva, less enthusiastic on Becky than most but that's been said.

I'll say this: I like Michael Cole. I think he gets shit on alot because there are certain components of his job that his superiors require him to do that isn't his fault. He has to blurt out stuff Vince tells him to and tow the company line to an extreme because one false move or show of insubordination and he's done. Ever since they dropped the heel Cole thing which was awful and brought him back to a middle of the road play by play guy, he's been solid. Getting rid of King, Booker and now JBL have been great moves and have slowly brought the commenting team away from the forefront and more into the background of the show which is where it should be.

Cole is a pro and good at his job, but because he just does as he's told to do, people hate him for it.

Cole was AMAZING on "Beast in the East". Marked difference from insanely micromanaged to just being able to do his job freely.

[Sepholio]

Kevin Nash is the greatest thing in the history of ever.

[Sepholio]

Taz should have gone on to have a long title reign as an unstoppable killing machine after he debuted and handed Kurt Angle his first loss.

[Mongo Lloyd]

Your most "Against The... 08-02-2016 05:28 AM SlickyTrickyDamon no shit. leave tpww forever


Are you by chance a member of "Window Lickers Anonymous?" I hear many success stories about WLA. If not you should give them a try. Meetings are in a short bus near you.

Also in line with the thread, shane mcmahon should have stayed gone.

[Tom Guycott]

Look how visceral your post was. You can't build heel heat like that in wrestling anymore, especially within the smark community. Wrestling isn't just about how many snowflakes a match can put up, it's about characters and stories, and Eva Marie has a bitch, entitled character down and will be an excellent heel foil for the face women, even if she is just doing jobs.

And as far as he in-ring work, I think she has improved markedly, and is probably better than most women on the roster beside the 4 NXT women. Her characer is, in my opinion, what Sasha's should have been since her call-up, and she does it better.

Thing is, you don't see that as a problem. Things have gotten so far gone that heels who get "the wrong" heat are being seen as true heels, and heels who do shit right get CHEERED because they're doing what they are supposed to do, and fans are showing outward appreciation instead of playing THEIR part and booing the fuck out of them to maintain balance. Someone earlier said Bray Wyatt "chases cheers", and I don't entirely agree. Think of some of his feuds- vs Cena, where Mr. "Same old Shit" was pit against the "breath of fresh air". Traditionally, they played their roles, but because the crowd is bored of SuperCena, and wanted Bray to get some shine, they got the opposite reactions on what they were expected to. Hell, Rollins even masterfully does the deal where he shits on the crowd, and often gets cheered for it.

People used to ask *why* is the crowd reacting a particular way and adjust. If it's "fuck off" heat, those people would go away. Now, it's just "fuck it, a boo is a boo, and a cheer is a cheer".

Eva is a good heel because of her persona on a show half the audience doesn't even watch, and because she can legit hurt someone/herself on accident? Hell, eventually even Otunga stopped trying. Hell, Peyton Royce can do Eva's gimmick. Or some other nondescript understudy. But, no, WWE is so dead set on building her in spite of the evidence otherwise, and they appear as though they will only abandon this if a) she does something to embarass them, like Roman or b) she Droz-es someone.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And Tom, I'm sure you aren't going to tune in, or pay to see Eva Marie getting beat up.

[Tom Guycott]

Taz should have gone on to have a long title reign as an unstoppable killing machine after he debuted and handed Kurt Angle his first loss.

At least come close to HTM's reign as IC champ. Even being a midcard monster would have been a nice way to showcase the guy.

[Frank Drebin]

Taz should have gone on to have a long title reign as an unstoppable killing machine after he debuted and handed Kurt Angle his first loss.

I think there are alot of people who would agree with you, actually.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Ric Flair is repetitive and boring

Knife edge chop

Wooooo

Knife edge chop

Woooooo

Knife edge chop

Woooooo

[The Condor]

You've always had terrible taste in women.

Drebs, this CAN'T be in regards to me... this has to be targeted at Cool King... right? RIGHT?!

[The Condor]

At least come close to HTM's reign as IC champ. Even being a midcard monster would have been a nice way to showcase the guy.

Honky Tonk Man... the perfect prototype for the upcoming run of dominance from Eva Marie.

[The Condor]

Cole was AMAZING on "Beast in the East". Marked difference from insanely micromanaged to just being able to do his job freely.

Cole catches a lot of heat from fans, but re-watching 2000's Smackdown on the Network, he and Taz were absolutely fantastic as a team. Extremely underrated historically.

[Cool King]

Drebs, this CAN'T be in regards to me... this has to be targeted at Cool King... right? RIGHT?!

No, my taste in women is exceptional.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Disco Inferno was massively underrated and deserved a run in the WWE.

[Simple Fan]

I liked Aces & Eights. Thought it was a great angle and he best Bully Ray has ever been. I also likeed him and D-Von holding singles titles at the same time. Thought Briscope And Bischoph see great additions to the stable.

Honestly wish The Dudleys went to SD and aligned with Styles expanding The Club. Could drop the camo for leather and bring in more of the Aces & Eights gimmick. SD needs the tag teams as well, Raws tag division is to deep.

[The Condor]

Disco Inferno was massively underrated and deserved a run in the WWE.

He was supposed to be Honky Tonk Man's protégé in 1997, but he couldn't escape his WCW contract. Thus we were given the gift of Rockabilly.

[BigCrippyZ]

Cole catches a lot of heat from fans, but re-watching 2000's Smackdown on the Network, he and Taz were absolutely fantastic as a team. Extremely underrated historically.

Agreed. Hell, even his work in early 1999 while JR was out was pretty damn solid I've always thought. Especially given how green he was and who he was replacing, I've always thought Cole's work in 1999 was really solid in comparison to what he's been forced to become today.

[Tom Guycott]

Cole catches a lot of heat from fans, but re-watching 2000's Smackdown on the Network, he and Taz were absolutely fantastic as a team. Extremely underrated historically.

Love the Heyman story about them bitching about him having them come in on an off day to do retakes until...

[Heyman]

Few more tidbits:

1) I was never a huge fan of Rey Mysterio. I didn't 'dislike' him, but wasn't exactly a fan of his.

2) I think D'Lo Brown had legit main-event and drawing potential before the WWE decided to squash him (i.e. Droz incident + rumors of him jumping ship to WCW).

3) I think Daniel Puder would have been a legit main-event star in the WWE had the WWE capitalized on his momentum (and helped nurture and guide his immaturity as opposed to throwing him to the wolves).

4) Brian Christopher should have and could have been a tremendous IC level heel in my opinion, had he held his shit together.

5) Jim Ross has legitimately sucked on the penises of other wrestlers backstage (mainly African Americans and Samoans).

6) CM Punk was a 'good' talent, but didn't have that 'it' factor needed to be the top guy. His face promos were to "logical" and didn't have enough emotion (which is a major reason why I think he ultimately failed as a face). It's the same reason why Edge never really got over a main-event face either. By contrast - look at a guy like Ultimate Warrior from way back in the day. His promos were weird and made zero sense, but they were filled with raw retarded emotion and the fans dug it up as result.

7) Ryan Shamrock was fucking hot, as was the lady that played Miss Beaver Cleavage in 1999. In my opinion they were as hot as Trish Stratus, Torrie Wilson, and Stacy Kiebler.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

DLo was one of my favourites. I even routed for him while in Lo Down.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm probably too late to this party, but here goes:

I always thought JBL should have retained the WWE Title against John Cena at WrestleMania 21. It's not because I liked JBL, but to me it never made sense outside the "John Cena is going to be the man" paradigm people saw it through even at the time. I missed a lot of the stuff that made John Cena really cool as Australia didn't get SmackDown for a period of 2003, and one of my first active memories of post-jorts Cena was him having a dreadful Best of Five Series with Booker T, where he won the US Title from himself. I remember him dropping the US Title to Carlito, winning it back, then the Carlito/Jesus stuff being cut short.

I hated John Cena before it was cool, I guess you could say, and after begging for ANYBODY to end the JBL title reign, I felt it made everybody look stupid for Cena to win the belt like he did at Mania 21. Given that they barely had 10 minutes at Mania, I thought that it would have made sense to have JBL's Cabinet attack Cena causing the DQ, yes even at Mania, and build to Cena taking them out one-by-one and earning the belt instead of being handed it because that's what happens when the WWE wants to make you a babyface star.

A DQ ending to a Mania title match, the babyface not getting his just dues at the big show, Orlando Jordan being involved at a WrestleMania -- it all feels counter-intuitive, but I stand by it to this day, and I actually think it would have positioned people to be less oppositional to the Cenazoic Period once he took over, got drafted to RAW and started telling veterans that he was "real recognizing real."

I guess my big point on this is: The Cena backlash was already being primed in 2004 long before SummerSlam 2005, where it first got vocalized en masse.

Also, I agree with not being too high on Rob Van Dam, and I always found The Rock to be a bit obnoxious.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

I'm preparation to be tar and feathered...

I'm not big on Renee Young. She's pretty meh to me. I mean, I get why people like her. But I've just never been into her.

[Tom Guycott]

I think D'Lo Brown had legit main-event and drawing potential before the WWE decided to squash him (i.e. Droz incident + rumors of him jumping ship to WCW).



DLo was one of my favourites. I even routed for him while in Lo Down.

I also think D'Lo could've gone places, and firmly believe he SHOULD have gone to WCW. I feel he would have been one of those who got an up-the-card boost from going to Atlanta, then back to WWE, sorta like Jarrett did.

[Mr. USA #1]

I don't get why Cesaro is over. He's boring on the mic. The swing is stupid. That tape he wears now is silly. His entrance is a James Bond rip off and his music is terrible. Plus he's bald.

[hb2k]

I'm probably too late to this party, but here goes:

We're doing this as a two-parter based on the volume of feedback, so will look to squeeze it in next week if we can ;-)

[Evil Vito]

I really never understood the hard-on for Bret Hart. Perhaps part of this comes from the fact that I first started watching wrestling in 1998 with WCW, so my first memories of Bret are when he was 41/42 years old and had basically checked out. He was also dealing with injuries and then he of course Goldberg concussed him and he retired a year and a half into me watching.

Like, I'm not saying Bret sucked or anything. If I'm watching an old show and he's there I can appreciate the match from a technical standpoint. But I don't find myself binge watching old Bret matches on the Network as I do with other wrestlers.

[Evil Vito]

I always found The Rock to be a bit obnoxious.

This actually is something I agree with, mostly with respect to his appearances after his 2011 return. His entire schtick is just to come in now and then and tear down one of the current stars. I understand The Rock himself picks who he wants to promo with, and the wrestlers themselves love interacting with him and understandably so. But as a viewer I always was puzzled by the benefit of having The Rock make the current roster look like a bunch of bitches. It only reinforced the perception that the Attitude Era was far more important than anything happening with the current product.

I likened it to watching a Rock film only for Sly Stallone or Clint Eastwood or somebody to walk in midway through a scene with zero context or connection to the story and just verbally rip Dwayne Johnson to shreds. And then leave, so The Rock can't actually get any sort of revenge.

[Mr. USA #1]

Oh, I also never got why people thought Crow Sting was better than Surfer Sting. Crow Sting just pointed with a bat and hung out in the rafters. Boring.

[Mr. USA #1]

Surfer Sting rules though.

[Evil Vito]

Biker Taker vs. Surfer Sting ONLY!!!

[Mr. USA #1]

Biker Taker was cool. He's lucky no one stole his bike tho.

[My Final Heaven]

7) as was the lady that played Miss Beaver Cleavage in 1999. In my opinion they were as hot as Trish Stratus, Torrie Wilson, and Stacy Kiebler.

Yea, I always had in appreciation for her too - after they turned Beaver Cleavage to Chaz she became his manager Marianna. Unfortunately, she died of cancer within a couple years of leaving the WWF after that :(

[My Final Heaven]

Biker Taker was cool. He's lucky no one stole his bike tho.

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[Cool King]

I really never understood the hard-on for Bret Hart....

I'm the same.

When it comes to The Hart Family, it's always been Owen Hart for me.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I'm not a troll! :mad:

[The MAC]

1. vince mcmohan is not a genius or even close.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I liked Russos first shot at WCW, and I mean liked it better than the WWF of the time.

Everyone had a purpose and no-one was a bonafide face or heel, especially the factions that evolved out of it. I remember posting here when I re-watched it years ago and had a chart showing who was feuding with who. The Filthy Animals were heels against the 4 Horseman, but faces against the Revolution. In one PPV, David Flair lays out DDP with a crowbar because he just snaps, then later that night, the Filthy Animals brutally attack Ric Flair which leads to David Flair coming out later in the night to take out Eddie with a crowbar and let the Revolution win leading to David Flair along with Crowbar being a couple of my favourite characters of the time.

3 Count came onto the scene along with Tank Abbot. The Cat found a really good groove. nWo 2000 would have been great if it wasn't for Halls problems, Bret getting injured and Goldberg thinking he could punch a non-gimmicked window (and Jeff being held out of the main event because of Goldberg/Bret). SID'S FUCKING STREAK, he just pranced out and power bombed people to call it a victory and at one point was even coming out dancing to the Maestro playing piano.

Then the "legends" other than Flair had stuff to do for the first time in years. Hacksaw had an angle, Russo's lackeys in Henig & La Parka were ready for shenanigans and the Jung Drangons feud with 3 count capped off an awesome roster that was booked well.

Every single thing in that brief run had me wanting more and it wasn't until the Radicalz left for WWF that ended that for me. It's a shame, I wish he at least managed to have a year at it solo. It's not like they recovered after firing him then bringing him back with Bischoff.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I really never understood the hard-on for Bret Hart. Perhaps part of this comes from the fact that I first started watching wrestling in 1998 with WCW, so my first memories of Bret are when he was 41/42 years old and had basically checked out. He was also dealing with injuries and then he of course Goldberg concussed him and he retired a year and a half into me watching.

Like, I'm not saying Bret sucked or anything. If I'm watching an old show and he's there I can appreciate the match from a technical standpoint. But I don't find myself binge watching old Bret matches on the Network as I do with other wrestlers.

Not to bust your chops because we like what we like, but if you give him a chance and watch his body of work from 1987 (starting with the match against Macho on SNME) until 1997, I think you'd be a fan of it.

Bret I do find relates mostly to Brits and Canadians, who tend to be less bombastic in their tastes. Americans tend to like louder characters whereas Canadians and Brits like their more subtle every-man characters. It's pretty much the reason that the Hart Foundation angle worked so well in 1997. So I fully understand Bret not connecting with you. A friend of mine (aka the guy who started this thread ;) ) made the comparison that Bret is De Niro and Shawn is Pacino. I guess that'd make Hulk Hogan into Mel Gibson.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

1. vince mcmohan is not a genius or even close.

I agree. I think he has a wealth of knowledge, drive, work ethic and an insatiable appetite for success but I believe he tends to cross the fine line into madness more than he is genius.

I do believe you can have moments of utter genius and not be a genius. I believe Vince McMahon personifies this.

People will see this as a knock on Vince, but just because he's not a genius doesn't take away all that he has done. He is just not as clever as he would love people to think he is.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I really never understood the hard-on for Bret Hart. Perhaps part of this comes from the fact that I first started watching wrestling in 1998 with WCW, so my first memories of Bret are when he was 41/42 years old and had basically checked out. He was also dealing with injuries and then he of course Goldberg concussed him and he retired a year and a half into me watching.

Like, I'm not saying Bret sucked or anything. If I'm watching an old show and he's there I can appreciate the match from a technical standpoint. But I don't find myself binge watching old Bret matches on the Network as I do with other wrestlers.

Well, in that case:

* This is the kind of thing one says to completely destroy their credibility as a commentator, but I'm also not that big on Bret Hart. I can admit objectively that he is good by whatever agreed upon metrics there are to define a great wrestler, but as someone that has had to go and re-watch his work without the emotion at the time, I find him kind of boring and have always found Owen to be better. His I Quit Match against Austin at WrestleMania 13 may be lauded as the greatest WWE match of all-time, but I honestly have trouble paying attention during it. What is wrong with me and how can I be fixed?

* I've found NXT boring since August of last year. It roughly coincides with the departure of Charlotte, Sasha and Becky as performers. Also, I have been underwhelmed by Charlotte, Sasha & Becky as main roster performers. I know each has worked hard and their WrestleMania match was great, but beyond that, they haven't manage to hit the stride they did in NXT -- possibly due to the lack of planning that gets to go into their work in NXT and their overall presentation as just part of the scenery on RAW and SmackDown.

* If you were suddenly thrust the booking power in WWE starting with WrestleMania X-7, given that he had beaten Stone Cold Steve Austin at No Way Out that year, Triple H beating The Undertaker would have been a sane call. Without the streak there, it is debatable whether or not Taker would have gone over A-Train and Big Show at Mania XIX, Orton at Mania 21, Batista at Mania 23, Edge at Mania XXIV, HBK at Mania XXV, etc. I believe the streak is kind of horse-shitty.

Taker was already an iconic figure in wrestling and arguably pop-culture by the time Jim Ross pointed out the streak at Mania X-7 and since then, a lot of The Undertaker's booking has held back others and may have potentially even held back Taker himself. Responding to losses is an important part of any wrestler's career, and Taker was robbed of that opportunity until he was a part-time star.

Taker's streak also put emphasis on the win-loss record of other wrestlers. Edge beating Alberto Del Rio at WrestleMania XXVII comes to mind. A lot of people criticize ADR these days, but when he first showed up, beat Rey Mysterio in his first match, slapped the urn out of Paul Bearer's hands, and won the largest Royal Rumble of all-time -- things were clicking for him. Then he lost to Edge because someone realized that Edge hadn't won a WrestleMania match in some time. Probably because he didn't get to go over Chris Jericho at the previous WrestleMania despite being a returning babyface, but I digress: Del Rio was dead in the water after he lost to Edge.

You can sense how the streak influenced the booking of guys making their debuts at WrestleMania, and you can feel certain wins and certain losses really crushing certain guys, and a large part of that is because of the emphasis that had been put onto the streak, particularly between 2005 and 2014. Shawn Michaels became Mr. WrestleMania because of the quality of his WrestleMania performances. And who knows, if it had never existed, maybe The Undertaker could have made some stars? Cue maniacal Kane laugh.

[The Condor]

People will see this as a knock on Vince, but just because he's not a genius doesn't take away all that he has done. He is just not as clever as he would love people to think he is.

Early 1980's Vince certainly was a genius and visionary, but like so many, he became lost with the times and never evolved, I'd say by about 1990. The last 25 years have been nothing but Vince preying on incompetent competition and the 1996-99 period of having his back put against the wall and listening to fan reactions and Vince Russo.

He's a genius in the way that certain public intellectuals are: their thoughts and theories may be perfect for a certain time and era, though they may be obsolete in 2 decades.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I'd honestly say that the attitude era was more Russo than Vince. It's always best not to believe Russo 100%, but I do believe it when he says he had the ideas, but Vince knew how to make them just ever so slightly perfect.

[The Condor]

Vince certainly was a filter for Russo. They made an excellent team

[BigCrippyZ]

Vince certainly was a filter for Russo. They made an excellent team

They really were. Sadly, I think both have fallen victim to their own egos and legends at this point.

Oddly, it seems like Heyman and Bischoff have matured and found peace the most over the last 15+ years.

[hb2k]

I'm not a troll! :mad:

Don't worry, Chase is an anomoly, if he doesnt appreciate the potential of Kerwin White, he's the troll.

[Lock Jaw]

I am not super into Finn Balor. Seen many superior workers/matches/feuds/characters from others in NXT. Only thing Balor has going for him over them is the sweet demon entrance.... and the past two times he has done it he seems to have "phoned it in" compared to the first couple of times.

Balor should be nowhere near one of the Summerslam main events, especially so soon after debuting. Needs some time to establish himself on the main roster, and I don't think he has the mic skills/character/charisma to do that in such a short amount of time. I think maybe if they play those NXT video packages they made for him when he won the NXT Title (or maybe it was before), it would be their best bet at getting him over.

I think Balor should go heel, personally, he just doesn't cut it for me as a face. I hear tell he was heel in Japan with The Club, so maybe he should just do that again. Something about his appearance just strikes me as slimy and Gollum-esque.

[Cool King]

I'm really not into him either.

His entrance is so damn long and boring and it really doesn't suit him. With Undertaker, another one with a long entrance, it actually suits him and the majority of the time, it's worth the wait. His theme also doesn't suit him. It sounds like it was a rejected piece from a Castlevania game.

And similar to Mr. Jaw there, his mic skills/character/charisma are another thing I've noticed. His mic skills and charisma are just dire. For me, he's up there with Baron Corbin when it comes to being boring on the mic and lacking charisma.

I also think it's a bit too early for him to be way up in the heights of SummerSlam main event, so hopefully, he loses at SummerSlam, has a rematch, then Reigns takes his place. While Reigns does that, Bálor enters the US title picture perhaps and sticks around there for a good while before making his way back to the main event scene.

[Lock Jaw]

Think the entrance worked good in NXT where it was a smaller environment, and everyone in the arena would do the "arm thing" with him....

Always did think he should have two themes, though. One for The Demon Finn and one for Leather Jacket Finn.

[Fignuts]

Gosh, Noid sure has been pessimistic lately.

One might even call him....CyNickal.

[Maluco]

Agree on Balor, arm thing is cringe worthy tbh.

Talking about NXT as a whole, I am not convinced that it accomplishes anything apart from being a small niche brand in itself. We are yet to see a wealth of WWE trained and produced performers making it to the main roster and I remain unconvinced that it helped guys like Owens and Zayn acclimatise. A good worker is a good worker and AJ has proven that by just stepping neatly into a main event role and the mythical "WWE style"

I guess what I am saying is that people on the net love NXT, but I think it is pointless as an exercise and don't see the value in it. Sorry Trips :-(

Also, Batista was awesome and noone on the roster, bar Cena, reaches close to the level he was at. He had an awesome presence, great look, tangible charisma, and he backed it up with more great matches than people give him credit for. Undervalued and don't think his legacy does him justice.

[Cool King]

I agree with everything Maluco said.

[Lock Jaw]

Think all the women performers, and guys like American Alpha did well "training" and "acclimating" in NXT before coming to the main roster.

Yeah, other guys like Owens and Zayn could have gone straight to the main roster like AJ Styles did and been fine without NXT, but it definitely still is a good training ground for some guys/gals.

[Emperor Smeat]

I'd argue a lot of those problems with NXT is more due to how bad main roster booking has been for almost all the call-ups since the NXT era started.

Do agree that the bulk of those who have been very successful already had a good amount of prior experience on the indies (Styles, Owens) or had the charisma to flourish with the WWE style (ex. Enzo).

[Maluco]

But is that not the point though? Guys like Tyler Breeze, Ascension, and now, Vaudevillians have been in their comfortable NXT enviroment and it has failed completely to prepare them to get over on the main brand. The guys that are getting over are the guys that are coming in ready from their years on the indie circuit.

Even the females, like Paige, Becky, and even a very young Sasha, started their training outside WWE and were having regular matches for different promotions before they came in.

Charlotte is the only 100% WWE/NXT made star on the roster...and she just happens to be Ric Flair's daughter. Its safe to say she could have learned anywhere and that her name opened doors. (Although I think she is great so wouldn't deny her being able to say she earned it herself)

Basically, does NXT do anything that wrestling for smaller promotions doesn't?

I would argue the opposite, I think the NXT bubble actually hinders performers and doesn't adequately prepare them for what's to come, or for what works in big arenas on the main roster. When it comes to sinking or swimming, they sink and they don't know how to change it up for stop the slide.

The guys who swim were swimming for a long time and in many different places before they arrived in WWE. They know how to adapt, react and work crowds.

Up to this point in time, NXT is a failure in what it set out to be.

[Frank Drebin]

I see your point, Malaco, but you're forgetting about alot of guys. Bray Wyatt, Big E, Rusev, Xavier Woods have all been fairly successful WWE bred guys and Neville as an "indy" guy hasn't gotten over. Its more of a case by case deal.

[Simple Fan]

Woods was in TNA before NXT as Consequences Creed.

[Frank Drebin]

I'd argue a lot of those problems with NXT is more due to how bad main roster booking has been for almost all the call-ups since the NXT era started.

I've always said the main reason NXT is successful is because its a 1 hour show once a week with a PPV once a quarter or so. You can't be bored of anyone because no one is featured every week. Much closer to back in the day when you had no idea when you were going to get to see your favorite guys in action.

It also holds off on all the big matches, so you don't have to have a program run into the ground where they fight over and over and over and none of the matches have any consequences.

[Frank Drebin]

Woods was in TNA before NXT as Consequences Creed.

Didn't know that

[Simple Fan]

Teamed with Lethal under Nash's tutelage as Lethal Consequences

[Lock Jaw]

He also had a team with Ron "The Truth" Killings called "Truth and Consequences".

[Lock Jaw]

On the October 1, 2009 episode of Impact!, Creed and Lethal were part of a 5-man ladder match for a future X Division Title match. During the match, Amazing Red, who ended up winning the match, performed a hurricanrana driver, which caused Creed to projectile vomit after his head hit the mat.[19]

Video:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4YtJPGpzRhg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Simple Fan]

Now that I think of it Nash didn't have anything to do with Lethal Consequences. It was Black Machismo where Nash was involved.

[Sting Fan]

I dislike the Wyatt stuff... I turn off the T.V. when they come on. It always seems to cartoony and cliche to me, long rambling promos with no real point to them.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Biker Taker was cool. He's lucky no one stole his bike tho.

LLxKEGZets8

[Lock Jaw]

Hulk Hogan too

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/U9fu73RewAg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[DAMN iNATOR]

Yeah, thought about posting that one as well...but already feel like way too many of my responses to posts are videos trying to reference the topic of people's posts...really want to cut back on that...

[Mr. Nerfect]

I agree with the Finn Balor stuff. The dude is a good wrestler and when he first showed up and did the demon entrance, it was novel and kind of cool. I liked how they saved it for special events and had him build up an undefeated streak under the make-up. You could tell they always wanted to market this civilian identity/superhero persona dynamic to be something resembling a franchise player. I'm not knocking his abilities, but the way it has ultimately been presented is kind of boring and is largely responsible for my disinterest in NXT.

I actually somewhat like that he's not loud and bombastic on the microphone, as it makes him seem like a Legitimately Humble Actual Athlete(R) instead of being some goofy gimmick. But there's just something white-bread about it. I kind of want to see a Crown Prince of Crime Balor on the main roster robbing Seth Rollins of the Universal Title (ugh) at SummerSlam, since I believe he can show much more charisma as a cocky asshole with all the talent in the world that hides behind his Club; but I have a feeling they're going all-in with heroic conqueror Balor.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm not a big fan of the WWE's current in-ring product. I used to be a bit of a mark for snowflakes, but in my more mature and alcoholic years I've grown a fondness for simple things like the old-school style of one guy punching another guy in the head and him actually selling it like he got punched in the head. Some guys need to fall for others to stand tall, and it seems like every wrestler in the WWE can kick out of every other wrestler's finishing move.

I paid money to watch a highly commended EVOLVE show a few months ago. It was the one that had a whole bunch of injuries affect the booking, so SoCal Val and her Premiere Athletes or whatever they were called came out and had consecutive matches. I'll give it to the guys -- they all worked really hard and tore it up, but with that being said, I was fatigued by the time the third match came along, and nothing had been built to. Why is my birthday special if you're going to deep-throat me every time?

I know I'm not alone in thinking this way about wrestling in a broad sense, but very often I hear the phrase "Well, at least the wrestling is good," but it can no longer keep my attention because great matches don't mean anything.

[BigCrippyZ]

Agree with both Maluco and Noid here.

I'd also say that everybody coming up these days are all pretty much similar in look/build/body/style, with a few exceptions, but nobody really has that larger than life look anymore. I'm not saying that I want to see everyone look like they're on the juice or just left the gym but I think they've gone to the other extreme. Since CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, now almost everyone looks too average and they all seem short as hell, like all the talent they just pulled in off the street or a couch somewhere. Hell, even HBK and Austin were more cut/built than a lot of the guys today. Sami Zayn, Bray, Owens, Balor, Corbin, Enzo, they're all either short or look like they spend most of their time on a couch or both.

[Fignuts]

Feel like Bray Wyatt's look suits his gimmick really well.

I am also not a huge fan of finn balor. He is capable in tne ring ans on tne mic, but nothing about him really stands out. He doesn't have that unique presence that guys like shinsuke and Joe have. Balor is cookie cutter outside of his entrance, which will only take him so far.

[XL]

But is that not the point though? Guys like Tyler Breeze, Ascension, and now, Vaudevillians have been in their comfortable NXT enviroment and it has failed completely to prepare them to get over on the main brand. The guys that are getting over are the guys that are coming in ready from their years on the indie circuit.

Even the females, like Paige, Becky, and even a very young Sasha, started their training outside WWE and were having regular matches for different promotions before they came in.

Charlotte is the only 100% WWE/NXT made star on the roster...and she just happens to be Ric Flair's daughter. Its safe to say she could have learned anywhere and that her name opened doors. (Although I think she is great so wouldn't deny her being able to say she earned it herself)

Basically, does NXT do anything that wrestling for smaller promotions doesn't?

I would argue the opposite, I think the NXT bubble actually hinders performers and doesn't adequately prepare them for what's to come, or for what works in big arenas on the main roster. When it comes to sinking or swimming, they sink and they don't know how to change it up for stop the slide.

The guys who swim were swimming for a long time and in many different places before they arrived in WWE. They know how to adapt, react and work crowds.

Up to this point in time, NXT is a failure in what it set out to be.
There is some truth to this, and I recently found myself questioning if NXT has achieved anything OVW/DSW/FCW hadn't already been achieving in past years (albeit with an enhanced production giving us a great hour of wrestling every week).

But there's also a lot to be said about how the guys are presented when they arrive on the main roster. Owens, Zayn, and now Balor were all given purpose and a push; Owens went over Cena in his first match! Where as the likes of The Vaudevillains, and Breeze quietly debuted on SmackDown (NotLive) and were never given any sense of purpose; there were so many things they could have done with Breeze to establish him as a character prior to an in-ring debut and subsequent jobber status.

I think guys like Zayn, Owens, et al know how to "maximise their minutes" because of all their experience elsewhere, but WWE help by putting them a step ahead of other NXT graduates.

[hb2k]

I want to thank everybody for the contributions, we got to read many of them on the show, which is now available at the following link:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/sk26vj/SCG_Radio_93_-_Going_Against_The_Grain_Part_1.mp3

Join us as we discuss your "Against The Grain" opinions on all things pro wrestling! We talk about a wide variety of topics this week - is Ric Flair a routine man with an elevated reputation? Is Shawn Michaels merely "solid"? We cover a wide number of your views on Lucha Underground and intergender wrestling, Steve Austin's heel run, Rob Van Dam, Bob Backlund, William Regal, Umaga, Tyson Vs. Austin, criticisms of Finn Balor and Sasha Banks, a debate on modern in-ring styles and a litany of other issues. With a ton more on the way next week in Part 2, this one was a great deal of fun, check it out!

[The Condor]

I agree with Maluco, Noid, et al... it's a major reason that I watch the Network archives moreso than the present day action. I love the stories, the camp value, and that wrestling didn't take itself so seriously. Stuff like Tuesday Night Titans, 96-2002 RAWS, and some of the other stuff in the vault from older promotions is just stellar and in my wheelhouse these days.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The athleticism is there, but the character work and storytelling isn't.

[Wishbone]

Sounds to me like you're all just pining for "the good old days" and have outgrown the product. I'm not saying I don't agree with you, I do to a degree, but I think our assertions that wrestling used to be better are skewed by nostalgia and a belief that the way we're used to things is inherently better because it's our way. Ask most kids in the target audience and old school matches bore them. Kids today have a different mindset than kids from the past.

[The Condor]

It's not about matches being better, because the athleticism of today's guys is exponentially better. However, the entertainment value is not there, the emotional ties to wrestlers is almost non-existent, save for a handful of guys. I just prefer stories and characters that enhance great matches. Case in point: Cena/Punk was stellar because we cared, there was so much involved. Roman Reigns is boring, has an undefined character, is competent in-ring-wise, and his story lines suck. Tag lines and buzzwords like "I'm not a good guy...", Underdog from the Underground, and the lone wolf are not characters nor do they incite excitement.

[Maluco]

Agree with above. The art of psychology and storytelling is gone. Guys like HBK and Bret Hart were not just technically good, but they knew how and when to sell, they dragged you into the match and emotionally involved you in it. Nowadays you get hit with chair, a DDT and a big finisher and you pop up within 10 seconds to go into the next sequence. That's obviously just a small part of what's going on, but nobody seems to know/or is allowed, to bring emotion into matches.

HBK/Flair is still one of my favourite matches to this day. Flair was all but done and HBK was in his latter years, but what a story. I am no mark, but was on my feet at the end an explaining the whole story to my then girlfriend who was watching. Then HBK/Taker, again, the story sucked you in. It wasn't a one off.

Even back in the day, a Benoit/Jericho clinic was great to watch...but give me a Mankind title win any day of the week.

Technical wrestling is such a small part of it. Matches like Zayn/Nakamura and the likes are fantastic to watch, but they are soon forgotten. It's the stories that leave a legacy and are remembered forever.

That's whats missing from today's product I think. Nobody tells stories anymore, and I don't think anyone knows how to. The likes of Hart/HBK/Flair/Steamboat should be down in NXT teaching that!

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Scott Hall should have a position of prominence.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Today's actual wrestling matches are the best that they have ever been in history.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Today's actual wrestling matches are the best that they have ever been in history.

Move for move for sure.

[Lock Jaw]

Yeah, I see plenty of great wrestling matches. Are the fans as hot and the stories as good? No. That's the difference.

Saw a bit of an old Summerslam on the Network the other day..... Virgil fighting Ted DiBiase and it was not a "good match", but the fans were completely rabid and they obviously had the story going behind them.

[Lock Jaw]

Let us not disparage the rassling. That is better than ever. It is the story and the fans being jaded arseholes.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Part of the problem is the whole production and the commentary. There isn't that elite storyteller on on the call, to help make everything memorable. Part of what makes moments like the infamous hell in a cell match iconic would be Jim Ross's genuine reaction.

[Swiss Ultimate]

What do you see as something most people enjoyed (a wrestler, a show, an angle, a gimmick, etc) but didn't click with you at all? What was it and why didn't it work for you?

Hulk Hogan's face turn against The Rock. I have always been pretty meh on Hogan, even as a child. His return to "face" popularity was unbearably cheesy and lame for me and brought on an extended period of me not watching consistently.

nWo Hogan was, for about 85% of his work in-ring and on the mic, pretty great to me. The step back to Real American was a jump-sharking moment in my mind. Could not accept.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I agree with Swiss. I also thought that the Wrestlemania X8 match was boring.

[XL]

Shouldn't that be "shark-jumping" though?

[Swiss Ultimate]

YES.

[Tom Guycott]

Agree with both Maluco and Noid here.

I'd also say that everybody coming up these days are all pretty much similar in look/build/body/style, with a few exceptions, but nobody really has that larger than life look anymore. I'm not saying that I want to see everyone look like they're on the juice or just left the gym but I think they've gone to the other extreme. Since CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, now almost everyone looks too average and they all seem short as hell, like all the talent they just pulled in off the street or a couch somewhere. Hell, even HBK and Austin were more cut/built than a lot of the guys today. Sami Zayn, Bray, Owens, Balor, Corbin, Enzo, they're all either short or look like they spend most of their time on a couch or both.

But one of the problems was that *everyone* had to have that "larger than life" look- like obscenely tall bodybuilders- , and it made decent sized people like the guys you mentioned seem comparatively smaller and smaller until it became problematic. Now, since you've seen so many big men over time, you're inclined to think "smaller" guys all look like Taz, even if someone is like 6'1".

I said before if WWE had some magic anacroistic ability to pull some of the more notable big men in history into the early 80's (tall like Taker, Nash, Show, Khali, El Gigante, or Nathan Jones, or meaty like Earthquake, Tugboat, Mark Henry...) Andre wouldn't seem nearly as impressive, because he wouldn't be a lone giant in a world of normal sized folk. He still had his intangibles, sure, but his immediate attention demanding presence wouldn't command nearly as much because there would have been others like him. The perception of size has slowly been swayed over the last 40 years to a cartoonish degree, and now it looks "weird" that there is an attempt to correct that with an influx and focus on more normal-heighted people.

Then, you also have to reconcile the fact that even "small" has to sometimes be justified. It is downright insulting to some still that DB or Punk were World Heavyweight Champsions, but will fondly remember Hart or Michaels, who really weren't all that fucking big themselves. Guys like Piper or Jake Roberts never really had a "ripped" physique. Look back at a guy like Harley Race, who is arguably considered both one of the all-time greats AND one of the toughest motherfuckers to walk the planet, and he didn't exactly look like he was chistled out of granite. He looked like a middle manager who had a bad day at work, had a few beers, a couple cigars, then decide he was going down to the arena that night to let off some steam.

We've been told so much, directly or indirectly, that for someone to be World Champion material, they have to look a particular way, that when people come along that might have what it takes except a particular set of genetic, they get arbitrarily rejected. And when I say World Champion material, I don't mean they immediately get the belt and get a Hogan run... I simply mean that when the next "OH MY GOD, SO MANY INJURIES/ABSENCES" tide rolls around, they won't be trying to suddenly elevate people into higher echelons out of necessity that nobody is buying because they didn't take the time before to even TRY to sell them to the fans.

[Fignuts]

I agree with Swiss. I also thought that the Wrestlemania X8 match was boring.

Had to be there I guess.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I think they are slowly trying to bring back reasons to make you care outside of just wins and belts again. I gave a shit about the Shield triple threat. I gave a shit about Owens/Zayn and right now with the promos and the angle of nobody believing he can do it, I give a shit about Ziggler.

Hell, away from WWE, I care about almost everyone in Lucha Underground because every one of them has a reason to be fighting in the temple and quite often, there's a good reason why you want one of the guys to win, even though it's usually written in a way that means in terms of interesting story, it could go either way.

It feels like they are aiming for longer term goals again and giving everyone on a card a reason to fight other than giving them a PPV payday. I'm pretty optimistic right now.

[Tom Guycott]

It's not about matches being better, because the athleticism of today's guys is exponentially better. However, the entertainment value is not there, the emotional ties to wrestlers is almost non-existent, save for a handful of guys. I just prefer stories and characters that enhance great matches. Case in point: Cena/Punk was stellar because we cared, there was so much involved. Roman Reigns is boring, has an undefined character, is competent in-ring-wise, and his story lines suck. Tag lines and buzzwords like "I'm not a good guy...", Underdog from the Underground, and the lone wolf are not characters nor do they incite excitement.

Agree with above. The art of psychology and storytelling is gone. Guys like HBK and Bret Hart were not just technically good, but they knew how and when to sell, they dragged you into the match and emotionally involved you in it. Nowadays you get hit with chair, a DDT and a big finisher and you pop up within 10 seconds to go into the next sequence. That's obviously just a small part of what's going on, but nobody seems to know/or is allowed, to bring emotion into matches.

HBK/Flair is still one of my favourite matches to this day. Flair was all but done and HBK was in his latter years, but what a story. I am no mark, but was on my feet at the end an explaining the whole story to my then girlfriend who was watching. Then HBK/Taker, again, the story sucked you in. It wasn't a one off.

Even back in the day, a Benoit/Jericho clinic was great to watch...but give me a Mankind title win any day of the week.

Technical wrestling is such a small part of it. Matches like Zayn/Nakamura and the likes are fantastic to watch, but they are soon forgotten. It's the stories that leave a legacy and are remembered forever.

That's whats missing from today's product I think. Nobody tells stories anymore, and I don't think anyone knows how to. The likes of Hart/HBK/Flair/Steamboat should be down in NXT teaching that!

Not exactly so much that nobody knows how to tell a story, but the focus is not there anymore for WWE. Announcers spend more time with one-liners and dumbass conversations and talking about how someone's valet looks than PUTTING OVER THE IN-RING TALENT. Matches are being put together with this beginning/middle/end mentality that makes them less exciting to the fans, but that's what the company wants, so what are you gonna do?

To requite Maluco again "Matches like Zayn/Nakamura and the likes are fantastic to watch, but they are soon forgotten." But, is that really their fault? I mean, the only "feud" of any kind they have seen fit to keep any thread to are the "history" between Zayn and Owens. Neither Sami or Kevin have really had another feud to pad their respective resumes, unless you count Stee- uh, Owens' clash with Cena. But even then, nobody really has a memorable COLLECTION of feuds anymore. If WWE can be assed to do it, someone might get *one*, usually where one person is clearly supposed to get the rub, and then... nothing. People are somehow supposed to get over by osmosis or after being buried verbally from the booth or being jobbed out repeatedly (or some combination of the three), and when they don't, it's their fault.

Zayn can't be seen as anything more than an "internet appealing spot monkey" if they don't give him any substance to help him be perceived as more than that. Why should I give a fuck about Rusev when he keeps beating Jack Swagger, Zack Ryder, and Mark Henry repeatedly in rotation? There's nothing to him other than "barrel chested foreign heel". What has Baron Corbin done on the main roster besides beat on Dolph Ziggler for a minute and win the Macguffin Trophy of the Year? What makes him a heel besides being tall and having badass music? And even people they are supposed to be "taking care" of, like Roman, aren't exactly exempt. He wasn't exactly transitioning from feud to feud as much as he was getting fed people progressively up the card so he can become champion and new top guy in a very transparent bid to create a new money machine. There wasn't really any kind of ride to be taken with him, outside of that feud with Bray Wyatt, and even THAT was very forced. If they had just taken 5 year approach instead of a 3 year one, and let him breathe and get over on his own... or salvage the shit he was taking by just making the man the company's "hand picked heel" and just rolling with it, they still tried to make him Cena lite.

No, the "stories" they want to tell are the ones that are screamed in the ear of the announce team. Things that should be taking place most of the time aren't, because that's the WWE style anymore. People who can put together good matches are just told to go out there and do so. Writers only have time for about 3 company wide feuds at a time, because scripting shit that should really speak for itself is hard work for two teams of writers. Matches come and go with no follow-through. Nothing is hardly ever at stake. People are just supposed to go "ooh, aah" at someone who "looks the shit", and that is supposed to parlay into a multiple title reign-slash-movie/tv career that Vince can say he had had an integral role in creating.

[RP]

I wonder if guys like Fandango think about quitting wrestling all the time because his name is Fandango and no one named Fandango will ever even sniff a title push, let alone a title match.

[XL]

Must be hard; choice between financial stability or artistic integrity. That's why guys like Jeff Hardy (who must be well off, and WWE would snap up in a heartbeat, go to/stay in TNA, so that they can have more control over what they do.

Look at what Derrick Bateman became in TNA. The guy has a lot of potential (much like Johnny Curtis) but that wasn't realised until he got to TNA.

[BigCrippyZ]

But one of the problems was that *everyone* had to have that "larger than life" look- like obscenely tall bodybuilders- , and it made decent sized people like the guys you mentioned seem comparatively smaller and smaller until it became problematic. Now, since you've seen so many big men over time, you're inclined to think "smaller" guys all look like Taz, even if someone is like 6'1".

I said before if WWE had some magic anacroistic ability to pull some of the more notable big men in history into the early 80's (tall like Taker, Nash, Show, Khali, El Gigante, or Nathan Jones, or meaty like Earthquake, Tugboat, Mark Henry...) Andre wouldn't seem nearly as impressive, because he wouldn't be a lone giant in a world of normal sized folk. He still had his intangibles, sure, but his immediate attention demanding presence wouldn't command nearly as much because there would have been others like him. The perception of size has slowly been swayed over the last 40 years to a cartoonish degree, and now it looks "weird" that there is an attempt to correct that with an influx and focus on more normal-heighted people.

Then, you also have to reconcile the fact that even "small" has to sometimes be justified. It is downright insulting to some still that DB or Punk were World Heavyweight Champsions, but will fondly remember Hart or Michaels, who really weren't all that fucking big themselves. Guys like Piper or Jake Roberts never really had a "ripped" physique. Look back at a guy like Harley Race, who is arguably considered both one of the all-time greats AND one of the toughest motherfuckers to walk the planet, and he didn't exactly look like he was chistled out of granite. He looked like a middle manager who had a bad day at work, had a few beers, a couple cigars, then decide he was going down to the arena that night to let off some steam.

We've been told so much, directly or indirectly, that for someone to be World Champion material, they have to look a particular way, that when people come along that might have what it takes except a particular set of genetic, they get arbitrarily rejected. And when I say World Champion material, I don't mean they immediately get the belt and get a Hogan run... I simply mean that when the next "OH MY GOD, SO MANY INJURIES/ABSENCES" tide rolls around, they won't be trying to suddenly elevate people into higher echelons out of necessity that nobody is buying because they didn't take the time before to even TRY to sell them to the fans.

Oh no doubt at that at all, and that's by far not their biggest issue, but one that I think still needs to be addressed. I just feel like now they've almost gone to the other extreme with it. All the guys coming up who appear to be the "future" are all pretty average looking. Not saying there's not a place for them, but if everyone looks like the average Joe on the street, it just makes it all seem kind of like a joke.

In comparison to Bret, HBK, Austin, Taker, Foley and Kane. You had a nice mixture in there. You had the "smaller" but still athletic guys in Bret and Shawn, you had the more cut guys like Rock and Austin, you had the monsters like Taker and Kane and you had Foley as your kind of everyday guy.

[Black Widow]

Shield 3way was better than Zayn/Owens.

[Ruien]

Oh no doubt at that at all, and that's by far not their biggest issue, but one that I think still needs to be addressed. I just feel like now they've almost gone to the other extreme with it. All the guys coming up who appear to be the "future" are all pretty average looking. Not saying there's not a place for them, but if everyone looks like the average Joe on the street, it just makes it all seem kind of like a joke.

In comparison to Bret, HBK, Austin, Taker, Foley and Kane. You had a nice mixture in there. You had the "smaller" but still athletic guys in Bret and Shawn, you had the more cut guys like Rock and Austin, you had the monsters like Taker and Kane and you had Foley as your kind of everyday guy.

And then you have Kevin Owens who has a beet gut and no muscle tone.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I feel like when it was a lot of big/chiseled guys, people were complaining that Vince had a big man fetish. Now that it has changed, people are longing for the big guys again. I feel like a lot of internet wrestling fans have no real desire to be entertained by the product. They would rather just spend all of their time "going against the grain", so to speak, and bitching about how everything sucks and how their ideas are better. It's really frustrating to read threads here sometimes.

[Lock Jaw]

ABT "going against the grain" by denouncing "going against the grain"

[wwe2222]

I feel like when it was a lot of big/chiseled guys, people were complaining that Vince had a big man fetish. Now that it has changed, people are longing for the big guys again. I feel like a lot of internet wrestling fans have no real desire to be entertained by the product. They would rather just spend all of their time "going against the grain", so to speak, and bitching about how everything sucks and how their ideas are better. It's really frustrating to read threads here sometimes.

I think people are looking for variety. I know I am. The larger than life aspect that made pro wrestling great has disappears. And when I say larger than life, I don't mean big guys. I mean personalities, size. Ring gear. So many bland superstars right now.

[Frank Drebin]

I don't think anyone is pining for just "huge lookin dudes" Variety is correct.

The "bitching" ABT, is more the storylines. Guys getting start and stop pushes, 50/50 booking, and a lack of long term plans. Very little of the "bitching" I see has to do with the talent themselves save for Reigns which is a whole different animal

[Vastardikai]

The best programs end up being the guys coming up with stuff on their own, independent of creative.

I think that's part of the issue with the current era, guys just want to put on "The Best Match on the Card (Registered trademark, marks in spandex)" and not "Tell the Best Story" or "Sell the Most Tickets." Telling the best story involves them doing their own stuff on the booking end, not just taking "Creative Has Nothing For You." There's a reason why fans buy the shit out of New Day stuff. Selling the Most Tickets involves making people care for the guy doing the 1350 splash, not just the 1350 splash itself.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Talent is definitely there.

[Anybody Thrilla]

There's a wide variety of body types on the roster right now. Not really sure where that's coming from.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

But nobody is talking about body types...

[ron the dial]

people bring up body types here pretty regularly.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

people being gertner lol

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The main problem if there is one with body types is that every is 220 pounds with abs minus some exceptions. Everyone just looks the same. It's not nec. the want for big diesed up hombres to be on tv but instead more of a variety. All shapes and sizes if you will.

Either way, me personally, sees no issues with the bodies nowadays. Seems fairly steroid free which I like.

[Anybody Thrilla]

But nobody is talking about body types...

Oh no doubt at that at all, and that's by far not their biggest issue, but one that I think still needs to be addressed. I just feel like now they've almost gone to the other extreme with it. All the guys coming up who appear to be the "future" are all pretty average looking. Not saying there's not a place for them, but if everyone looks like the average Joe on the street, it just makes it all seem kind of like a joke.

In comparison to Bret, HBK, Austin, Taker, Foley and Kane. You had a nice mixture in there. You had the "smaller" but still athletic guys in Bret and Shawn, you had the more cut guys like Rock and Austin, you had the monsters like Taker and Kane and you had Foley as your kind of everyday guy.

And then you have Kevin Owens who has a beet gut and no muscle tone.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Agree with both Maluco and Noid here.

I'd also say that everybody coming up these days are all pretty much similar in look/build/body/style, with a few exceptions, but nobody really has that larger than life look anymore. I'm not saying that I want to see everyone look like they're on the juice or just left the gym but I think they've gone to the other extreme. Since CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, now almost everyone looks too average and they all seem short as hell, like all the talent they just pulled in off the street or a couch somewhere. Hell, even HBK and Austin were more cut/built than a lot of the guys today. Sami Zayn, Bray, Owens, Balor, Corbin, Enzo, they're all either short or look like they spend most of their time on a couch or both.

But one of the problems was that *everyone* had to have that "larger than life" look- like obscenely tall bodybuilders- , and it made decent sized people like the guys you mentioned seem comparatively smaller and smaller until it became problematic. Now, since you've seen so many big men over time, you're inclined to think "smaller" guys all look like Taz, even if someone is like 6'1".

I said before if WWE had some magic anacroistic ability to pull some of the more notable big men in history into the early 80's (tall like Taker, Nash, Show, Khali, El Gigante, or Nathan Jones, or meaty like Earthquake, Tugboat, Mark Henry...) Andre wouldn't seem nearly as impressive, because he wouldn't be a lone giant in a world of normal sized folk. He still had his intangibles, sure, but his immediate attention demanding presence wouldn't command nearly as much because there would have been others like him. The perception of size has slowly been swayed over the last 40 years to a cartoonish degree, and now it looks "weird" that there is an attempt to correct that with an influx and focus on more normal-heighted people.

Then, you also have to reconcile the fact that even "small" has to sometimes be justified. It is downright insulting to some still that DB or Punk were World Heavyweight Champsions, but will fondly remember Hart or Michaels, who really weren't all that fucking big themselves. Guys like Piper or Jake Roberts never really had a "ripped" physique. Look back at a guy like Harley Race, who is arguably considered both one of the all-time greats AND one of the toughest motherfuckers to walk the planet, and he didn't exactly look like he was chistled out of granite. He looked like a middle manager who had a bad day at work, had a few beers, a couple cigars, then decide he was going down to the arena that night to let off some steam.

We've been told so much, directly or indirectly, that for someone to be World Champion material, they have to look a particular way, that when people come along that might have what it takes except a particular set of genetic, they get arbitrarily rejected. And when I say World Champion material, I don't mean they immediately get the belt and get a Hogan run... I simply mean that when the next "OH MY GOD, SO MANY INJURIES/ABSENCES" tide rolls around, they won't be trying to suddenly elevate people into higher echelons out of necessity that nobody is buying because they didn't take the time before to even TRY to sell them to the fans.

Those are all from this thread, Newstead.

[Stickman]

The womens division still isn't that good,

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Well you're completely right Anybody Thrilla. and I... am completely wrong.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

But in all fairness, you should just ignore any post by Ruien (all offence intened Ruieny ;-) )

Kevin Owens is awesome. I would like him less if he was w/o beer gut. He'd just look like "everyone else".

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The womens division still isn't that good,

I'll agree with that. Improved by leaps and bounds in that they actually work matches, and in spurts there is some AWESOME work. But I find some of the work to be awkward and clunky.

[Stickman]

I'll agree with that. Improved by leaps and bounds in that they actually work matches, and in spurts there is some AWESOME work. But I find some of the work to be awkward and clunky.

That is a very good analogy. There are 3-4 that are very good but it does seem awkward at times. I would put Trish, Lita, Victoria, Jackie and Ivory up against anybody now and they come out on top.

[Lock Jaw]

Conversely, before the draft I looked forward to womens matches/segments almost more than the mens....... Maybe from being so burnt out on the men, that even if it wasn't always "good" I enjoyed the women because it still seemed "vaguely fresh".....

Would always be a good "pick me up" in the midst of drudging through a 3 hour RAW to see WWE Paige, Becky, Sasha, or Charlotte......

Not a fan of the division being split up, but I guess I would not have been a fan of a show having no women at all....

[Lock Jaw]

That is a very good analogy. There are 3-4 that are very good but it does seem awkward at times. I would put Trish, Lita, Victoria, Jackie and Ivory up against anybody now and they come out on top.

How dare you miss Molly Holly

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

That is a very good analogy. There are 3-4 that are very good but it does seem awkward at times. I would put Trish, Lita, Victoria, Jackie and Ivory up against anybody now and they come out on top.

Trish and Lita could be pretty clunky as well tbh. Kind of hard to work a tight match with your tits hanging out everywhere.

[Innovator]

I get the whole look that WWE wants their women to have, but wouldn't a real competition have their women put their hair back?

[Anybody Thrilla]

Long hair has been a thing in wrestling for the better part of forever.

[drave]

The name of the new title does not bother me.

[drave]

JBL is actually a WRASSLIN GOD-UH

[RP]

The name of the new title does not bother me.

AGREED

[Anybody Thrilla]

I agree as well.

[ron the dial]

not only does it not bother me, i like it.

[Tom Guycott]

I get the whole look that WWE wants their women to have, but wouldn't a real competition have their women put their hair back?

Long hair has been a thing in wrestling for the better part of forever.

Isn't the basic point of long hair (pertaining to wrestling, I mean before sarcasm) to simultaneously create movement and also help hide spot calling?

Tying it back would "make sense" insofar as "competition" and being able to see their face, but esentially be counterproductive in the scheme of pro wrestling.

[drave]

I give credit for Matt Hardy finding a "gimmick" - but I don't find anything about it "good".

Now he will inevitably run it into the ground before self-deletion.

[Stickman]

Trish and Lita could be pretty clunky as well tbh. Kind of hard to work a tight match with your tits hanging out everywhere.

Agreed. I don't understand why women tend to be clunky and awkward more than the guys. Aside from tits hanging out, it seems like at times women stop and start moving while performing manuvers whereas men are able to do things in one motion. I really don't get why that is.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Isn't the basic point of long hair (pertaining to wrestling, I mean before sarcasm) to simultaneously create movement and also help hide spot calling?

Tying it back would "make sense" insofar as "competition" and being able to see their face, but esentially be counterproductive in the scheme of pro wrestling.

Yup

[Anybody Thrilla]

That's what I was poking at.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I give credit for Matt Hardy finding a "gimmick" - but I don't find anything about it "good".

Now he will inevitably run it into the ground before self-deletion.

It's really fucking stupid, and I hate that anyone is down with it.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Agreed. I don't understand why women tend to be clunky and awkward more than the guys. Aside from tits hanging out, it seems like at times women stop and start moving while performing manuvers whereas men are able to do things in one motion. I really don't get why that is.

That's why women regularly earn twenty percent less than men.

[KIRA]

Heel biker taker was awesome. Face biker taker was a tosser
Yep.

Owen was a better all around performer than Bret

[The Condor]

Owen was a better all around performer than Bret

He was just as good a worker, better on the mic, a more entertaining personality, and could work as both a heel or face, but was a much more effective heel than Bret, save for those 6 months in 1997. Even then they were together.

This checks out.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And yet Bret still worked better as a main eventer.

[Tom Guycott]

But that's possibly because Owen "didn't take it seriously". I could swear I remember Bret admitting Owen was "frustratingly" better than him, but because Owen basically didn't give a fuck about being the best, he didn't really apply himself to the level Bret did.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

And yet Bret still worked better as a main eventer.

Unfair. Owen was not able to be a main eventer with Bret there and then ruining it all by being a bitch.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol Owen was fucking unbelievable but he was not a main event talent.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

So Bret took it too serious and Owen was like whatever. They could have been a good tag team if the ages and timing were better.

[Tom Guycott]

lol Owen was fucking unbelievable but he was not a main event talent.

Really not so sure. Between being allegedly better than Bret, that whole "Owen was supposed to become The Game" rumor, and the overwhelming fact that he died way too soon, it is difficult to dismiss his main event potential out of hand.

You never know: he might have said or done something or been put into position to be propelled into the stratosphere. The argument of history may not even been about Bret or Shawn, but Owen or Shawn.

I guess this brings another "against the grain" argument: me not liking to arbitrarily dismiss people as not being "main eventers" or "top draws" when the situation never really arose. It is a combination of ability, timing, and the right people thinking a push for so and so is the right thing to do.

If Vince didn't see money in "Austin 3:16", he may have well gotten the Zack Ryder treatment, and allowed him to fuck off into oblivion while still trying to create another Hogan in spite of the overwhelming number of signs and chants. What if they decided the failed push of Flex Kivana or overhyped babyface Rocky Miavia was considered to be all Rock's fault and decided just to job him out on Shotgun Saturday Night for a couple of years? The same thing could be said about them in those situations: that they "didn't have it" and weren't main eventers or draws, and the evidence would have supported that point of view.

[Simple Fan]

If Owen hadn't died I'd see him as what Jericho became and maybe more. Definitely would have been the first Undisputed Champion.

[KIRA]

I don't see any reason why Owen couldn't have been given the ball.
But I also admit that I don't understand Bret's appeal at all outside of his anti-american heel run I thought he was he most sleep inducing person on the roster.

[Anybody Thrilla]

What's all this main event talk? He died in a Blue Blazer comedy gimmick. He's one of my all time favorites, but let's be honest here.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

What's all this main event talk? He died in a Blue Blazer comedy gimmick. He's one of my all time favorites, but let's be honest here.

After Bret left for WCW and he came back with this badass gimmick, he was the most over face in the company. Obviously Shawns POLITIKING stopped that and he just randomly joined the Nation.

I'm not saying he would have been a long term main event, but a 1 or 2 time champ from that angle alone and some classic main events vs HBK would have been great. At least give him the ball while he's red hot.

[Anybody Thrilla]

It would have been great, but that clearly was NOT the direction that they were looking in with him.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

Had Owen made it to the brand split era, it's not impossible to think he would've gotten a run. He'd have fit right in with the SD roster.

[Innovator]

It would have been great, but that clearly was NOT the direction that they were looking in with him.

If anything, he would've been an agent by 2001.

[#1-norm-fan]

Had Owen made it to the brand split era, it's not impossible to think he would've gotten a run. He'd have fit right in with the SD roster.

It's almost impossible to think he WOULDN'T have gotten a run. The standards for champions in the brand split era being ridiculously low and all. Owen would have been more than qualified.

[Tom Guycott]

What's all this main event talk? He died in a Blue Blazer comedy gimmick. He's one of my all time favorites, but let's be honest here.

So, by your logic, (and my opinions of Hunter as a talent aside) if HHH died in a car wreck or something during his blueblood gimmick, it would be just as well, because he never would have amounted to anything in the wrestling business? How about if Eddie died even a year before his monumental victory? Would he have also been considered "good, but not WHC good"?

What's to say that something or someone wouldn't have changed their minds about the guy, be it Vince, Shawn, or even Owen himself? Shit changes. Remember when Cena was an "experiment"? Wasn't worth the time to make him legit until there was a talent vaccum that left them devoid of many staple, go-to draws. Now, you can't imagine the landscape without him. We don't, or can't know, what the future held for Owen. Hell, that Blue Blazer scam he and Jarrett were running might have been a catalyst for something greater for BOTH guys down the line.

Also, another thing to note, again, is how lax Owen's attitued allegedly was. Maybe he WAS looked at beforehand at being a possible top guy, and he was all "meh" about it- that carrying the company was too big a pain in the ass and would take away from the fun he was having. And maybe something in future might have changed that out of obligation, growth, or necessity.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I'm basing what I'm saying on facts that were actually happening. You guys keep throwing what ifs like you know something that no one else does. Relax. I love Owen too. One of my all time favorites. I just don't think he would have been a main eventer, based on what actually was happening in this very real and non-made up life.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I would love to be wrong about what I'm saying. But the thing is, I never will be here. Because he certainly won't be main eventing anything now. I would have LOVED to see him in the main event. I just don't THINK it would have happened. And frankly, it's reaching for any of you to think otherwise. Based on facts. Not conjecture.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah and he was better than Bret at the super junior style, but Bret had the story telling and subtle nuances which make one a main eventer down. Plus, while maybe not as agile as Owen, Bret was a technician enough to pull it all together.

[Jordan]

Owen was amazing. I started watching WWF in like 1993 and I always HATED Owen, but in the best possible way. He always made me laugh, I always knew his matches would have something that tricked me into thinking wrestling was real. He was really creative, and did have a certain formula, but not as strict of one as Bret, so his big matches come off more creative to me than Bret's. But he was a chicken shit heel, and that is a total different style than Bret was, plus Bret was a high level main eventer, the both served different purposes. The only thing you can say for sure is that when they worked together, you'll rarely find two better partners in the ring. They were fantastic together.

There were two or three times when WWE pushed Owen as a strong baby face, December 97 against Shawn, very interesting program. That was the best time to put the title on Owen if you weren't going to do it in 94 against Bret. Then that run continued into 98 and Owen adopted a Steve Austinesque persona and was fucking awesome, but that got cut off and they turned him heel again.

I was watching Over the Edge old school style, listening to it mostly scrambled on the PPV channel. I was like 10 years old, I didn't realize how much I loved him til he was gone. Always one of the best characters on WWF TV. RIP Owen

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Owen definitely was awesome. Probably one of the best heels of all time. He was so great a being a little dipshit and absolutely hilarious. He was also crisp in the ring and I don't think he ever had a bad match. He just wasn't "better" than Bret.

[Jordan]

He was better at being a star in the mid card than struggling at the top.

[The Condor]

re: the Owen main event chatter

I loved him, thought he was the total package, and in hindsight wish he received an opportunity like his brother. However, he was never, at the time of his passing, going to be anything more than a spot, B-PPV challenger at the top level, akin to Ken Shamrock or the British Bulldog in '95-'96. He had been around for a decade at that point and was cemented as great, talented mid-carder in the mind of the decision maker, Vince McMahon.

So yes, if he had continued on, he probably would have had a few good years left, but they would be in the midcard helping the real pet projects and future main eventers like Benoit, Angle, Jericho, Cena and putting over HHH.

[Heyman]

^^^^^^^

I'll have to agree with The Condor here. Owen would have had runs as IC champ and Tag team champ, but that's as far as he was going to go in my opinion. The fact that Owen jobbed cleanly to guys like Ken Shamrock, Road Dogg, etc., was vivid proof that Owen would have likely been used to put over up coming talent.

RIP.

[Maluco]

A lot of stuff that has been mentioned, but thought I would chip in with something that hasn't. Bret had a better look.

I personally don't think that was the only thing that separates them. Bret was a better serious character and was able to tell stories and make you believe in whatever angle or match he was in, but even then, WWE wanted guys with a marketable look up front and Bret had a marketable, unique look.

He was a handsome guys and popular with female fans too back in the day.

[Maluco]

Also, Bret had lots of fantastic stories with Owen, Austin, HBK, DX, Lawler, Skinner (lol)

But Owen absolutely peaked when his better brother led hin through the story of their feud. It was arguably one of Bret's finest too, but he had many, many more.

Owen was brought to Bret's level in that feud as a serious storyteller and performer. I think Dale nailed it, it was the subtle nuances, reactions and timing of things, Bret's instincts for what he was trying to tell an audience, that set him apart.

[hb2k]

I thought Owen was such an awesome talent, but I think the people who think Owen was going to be the beneficiary of the talent explosion in 2000 and beyond are wrong. Owen was being phased down already in 1998 and 1999, and the talent depth at that time was surprisingly weak. With more guys coming in, they wouldn't be in the mindset of using them to put over Owen, it'd be the other way around. He may have found a lease on life aligned with one of them (Angle perhaps, with Owen endorsing Kurt as the only American with decent morals), but I don't see that transitioning to a main event run. Especially considering the rise of Triple H.

You touch on Bret's look, but Bret's general aura, even when he was in the Hart Foundation with Anvil, was always above his station. It's why Bret could get so over in situations like Survivor Series 1990 with DiBiase when he was just part of a tag team. He felt like he had more depth and sucked you in emotionally far more than Owen did.

I don't think the public ever saw Owen as a main event talent, and I don't think, outside of the Bret storyline, that he really was one. I just don't see the time frame when he's the best option outside of maybe getting the short run Backlund did, but that does nothing for Owen or Bret in the long run for him to get steamrolled by Diesel like Bob did. Owen having a decent stretch as champion wasn't going to happen in that era, and I'm not sure Owen could carry it as top heel for a prolonged period in 1994/95? Up for debate I suppose.

In 96 Shawn was the right choice. By early 97 Owen was locked in the middle. Late 97, you had Austin, and I'm sorry, but in no way was Owen more over than Austin in late 97. He got some big pops based on the surprise and Montreal, but he wasn't hotter than Austin.

I'm not sure when Owen's time is when there aren't better options, and I think that's why I'm not sold on Owen as main eventer. A true top, top guy IS the better option.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Plus, people take Owen "not being a main event talent" as some kind of knock. it isn't. He was your ultimate utility mid carder. He could be in the lower mid-card, or the upper mid-card and then slot into the main event and nobody would bat an eyelid because he was just that good. You NEED those guys, because no loss ever hurt Owen as his awesomeness and antics always kept him in the mix. However, you place him as a pure main event talent, and suddenly he becomes far more exposed. Also, you remove your reliable utility mid card guy.

[Heyman]

I'm wondering if there is a parallel to mid/late 90's Owen Hart, to early-mid 00's Christian?

Not in terms of wrestling ability (i.e. Owen was far more talented than Christian), but just in terms of a guy being perfectly suited for the mid-card, but not being quite main-event material.

[The MAC]

1. I couldn't give a fuck about Daniel Bryan. TNA was as far as he should have went.

[Simple Fan]

I probably wouldn't have hated him so much if he was in TNA. Then again he wouldn't have been a former WWE superstar and probably wouldn't have got much of a push in TNA.

[XL]

I'm wondering if there is a parallel to mid/late 90's Owen Hart, to early-mid 00's Christian?

Not in terms of wrestling ability (i.e. Owen was far more talented than Christian), but just in terms of a guy being perfectly suited for the mid-card, but not being quite main-event material.

Christian was exactly who I thought of when reading Dale's post.