Smark Era..... Good or Bad?

[Ruien]

So we have been in this snark era for awhile now. Whenever there is a semi awesome spot in a match we get the "Holy Shit" and "This is Awesome" chants. We have AJ Styles and a dude with more body fat than Curtis as our champions. Everything the internet community wanted basically.

Is this really good though? These wrestlers are not larger than life like Cena, Rock, Brock, Kurt, Goldberg, and such. Vince wanted to make Reigns into a huge deal like them but people wanted AJ and such insteadd. I don't think the current setup is designed to succeed. No matter how wonderful you book AJ he will never be able to compete against Brock and Goldberg. The mystique of these huge ass dudes beating the pissed out of each other is gone.

Are you in favor of this era? Even if you are, do you believe it is setting WWE to succeed or fail in the long run?

[Bad News Gertner]

It's turned me off current wrestling. I watch to see the wrestlers get themselves over, not the fans.

[Destor]

Bad. /thread

[Stickman]

It is annoying, but I don't think either Owens or AJ are bad champs at all. Balor winning the title was a joke though so this smarky era is dangerous. The holy shit chants and this awesome chants annoy the fuck out of me when the spot doesn't deserve the chant.

[Big Vic]

People chanted holy shit when Undertaker showed up..........................really?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

The chants "this is awesome"/"holy shit" are about the performances in the ring. I also have no problem with "you deserve it." All of those chants are about praising the wrestlers so there should be no problem with it.

The sour part is when the crowd tries to hijack the crowd with chants that are not about a superstar or solely about themselves. When Baron Corbin debuted on Raw after WrestleMania there was a beachball that was floating around the floor. It got confiscated and the fans booed. Throughout the entire match they chanted "hey we want some beach ball!" like Bayley's chant. It ruined Corbin's debut after winning the Battle Royal.

Also "we are awesome" has to stop.

[Rammsteinmad]

Baron Corbin wouldn't have had that problem if he wasn't so bland and boring.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

He's contemplative.

[The CyNick]

It's such a tough line to walk. On the one hand the annoying fans that ruin aspects of shows are the same people that buy the Mania travel package, subsribe to The Network, go to three shows in one weekend, but merch, and will never stop watching.

But what appeals to them in my opinion will never help grow the business. When you read fantasy booking on places like this, you see what these people like, and you can see how it only would appeal to the hardcore sports entertainment fans.

I listened to Baron Corbin on Talking Smack and his comments resonated with me. While guys like Daniel Bryan can get over to a massive degree with the captive audience, I don't think those types of guys will ever grow the fanbase. Not to say I think Baron Corbin will. But I do believe a guy more similar to Baron Corbin is more likely to grow the base than a guy like Bryan.

The good thing for WWE is they figured out a way to get more revenue out of the hardcore fans with The Network, so it makes financial sense to cater to them by pushing indy looking guys over guys who look like real stars. The risk is have they alienated so many casual fans that it will hurt them when it comes time to negotiate a new TV deal. On the other hand, what if they decided to bring all of their TV content in house to The Network? Can they bring in another million subs that way? If that happens, then you have to keep catering to those smark fans and that will just be the new reality.

[Cool King]

So we have been in this snark era for awhile now. Whenever there is a semi awesome spot in a match we get the "Holy Shit" and "This is Awesome" chants. We have AJ Styles and a dude with more body fat than Curtis as our champions. Everything the internet community wanted basically.

I didn't want this.

I'm cool with Styles as champ though. I think he's a pretty good heel champion and a perfect fit on SmackDown. I'm really enjoying his stuff.

As for Owens, he's just shite.

I also have no problem with "you deserve it." All of those chants are about praising the wrestlers so there should be no problem with it.

The problem there is that the Smarks chant that to all their "Internet Darlings", so they chanted it to Kevin Owens, even though Owens is a heel (and a big one at that) and cheated/got help to win the title.

Why would you congratulate and praise someone like that who's a bad guy and didn't win the title "legitimately"?

I'm not a fan of the Smark chants.

Chanting "Holy Shit" when two people are staring each other in the ring or "This Is Awesome" when someone pulls out a move that some Japanese wrestler does, is just annoying now.

I'm also not a fan of chants that follow wrestlers from the Indies, like Sami Zayn's "Ole" chant. To me, that chant is El Generico's and Sami Zayn is not El Generico. He's Sami Zayn. If El Generico came to the WWE and then unmasked and proclaimed to be Sami Zayn, then sure, "Ole" chant until your heart's content.

I also wouldn't say it annoys me as such, but when UK fans create a chant that follows a wrestler, that "gets to me" a bit, like Enzo's chant where his name is sung to the tune of "Seven Nation Army" or "Fandangoing".

It's hard to put into words, but whenever fans that aren't British do that, it just feels like they're trying too hard to be British fans and failing at it. It just feels weird.

[Big Vic]

They need TV slots or else they will be a niche product.

[Cool King]

Baron Corbin wouldn't have had that problem if he wasn't so bland and boring.

Yes.

[Big Vic]

It's hard to put into words, but whenever fans that aren't British do that, it just feels like they're trying too hard to be British fans and failing at it. It just feels weird.

Damn culture vultures.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Unfortunately you can't avoid the smark era. Information is too readily available on the internet.

[Emperor Smeat]

Don't have a problem with the era itself since its lead to better in-ring quality but could be better off with less moments of the crowds trying to make things about themselves.

Crowds are no longer interested in Vince's vision or preference for wrestling and WWE has done a horrible job transitioning to this new era because they keep being stubborn on listening or gauging what the crowds want. The Cena model no longer really works although could argue that model had a very short shelf life since Cena failed at carrying his kids market into becoming new long term viewers.

Crowds seemed to be more interested in Triple H's vision based on how he's running NXT and him wanting to bring back more NWA/WCW aspects to WWE style wrestling like Cruisers.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I'd rather have a loud crowd than a silent one, so I like the crowds.

Love them or hate them, it's all WWE's fault for them. They've driven away their casual audience with terrible TV and that's all they have left.

[Evil Vito]

Modern WWE is booked exactly like how I used to book my EWR games. Mostly talented wrestlers working long matches on TV every week, mostly 50/50 booking to appease the EWR feud system so one guy didn't dominate the storyline.

Only difference is in EWR people got over by doing that.

[Wishbone]

Booking has EVERYTHING to do with it. Do you honestly believe that Brock and Goldberg would be over at all if they'd been booked as badly as everyone is today? If so you're daft. Ryback and Reigns falling flat are the most recent proof that size doesn't = success, and there's plenty of others that have proved this point as well. On the flip side guys like Shawn Michaels, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, etc are proof that a guy can be larger than life without being physical giants.

You're also not factoring in the cultural shift that has occurred outside of wrestling. People are leaning more and more every day toward more "realistic" and "relateable." In fact relateability has become a major selling point in most works of fiction these days. People want heroes that they can project themselves onto. Hell, even our action heroes are changing. You don't see many Schwarzeneggers or Stallones anymore. Even in comic books which are the closest thing to wrestling you are seeing fewer and fewer of the quintessential superheroes and more "average" characters. It makes sense that wrestling would make this shift too, especially given the current feeling toward steroids and whatnot.

Anyway onto the actual question. No, I don't totally enjoy the current era, but not because of the wrestlers involved. The talent is fine, and in fact I'd argue it's probably the best roster overall that WWE's ever had (note I said overall. This is because other eras have had a few guys like the Rock who beat out everyone, but outside of those few greats their rosters of peers were often meh in comparison.) The reason I don't quite enjoy wrestling today is because of the 50/50 booking, and the awful writing. It's like getting together an extremely solid cast of actors and then giving them the worst possible script and director.

All of that said I've come to terms with what's going on right now. I manage to find enjoyment in what wrestling is now even if it will never actually be legitimately good again. It's pretty much a guilty pleasure to me now. A Sharknado if you will. Yeah, it's bad, but there are certain moments that are legit entertaining sprinkled in, and even the bad such as Elsworth is so bad that it's hilarious.

[Maluco]

WCW proved that you can do both, you can have great matches and then stars at the top of the card, the problem, as they found out, is that you have to create new stars eventually and the workers need upward mobility. Its that balancing act that noone has found a formula for.

Right now on WWE TV, there are no stars. Not when you define a star as a Hogan, Stone Cold, or even a HHH, Angle, Sting, Undertaker. Just a glimpse at how over Goldberg is can tell you that. It is a different leve totally, a different planet.

How do you make stars without stars? It's a tough one, but I don't think they have even tried. Whether that is a positive thing depends on if you like what you are watching right now. A world where WWE is the only star.

[Stickman]

Booking has EVERYTHING to do with it. Do you honestly believe that Brock and Goldberg would be over at all if they'd been booked as badly as everyone is today? If so you're daft. Ryback and Reigns falling flat are the most recent proof that size doesn't = success, and there's plenty of others that have proved this point as well. On the flip side guys like Shawn Michaels, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, etc are proof that a guy can be larger than life without being physical giants.

You're also not factoring in the cultural shift that has occurred outside of wrestling. People are leaning more and more every day toward more "realistic" and "relateable." In fact relateability has become a major selling point in most works of fiction these days. People want heroes that they can project themselves onto. Hell, even our action heroes are changing. You don't see many Schwarzeneggers or Stallones anymore. Even in comic books which are the closest thing to wrestling you are seeing fewer and fewer of the quintessential superheroes and more "average" characters. It makes sense that wrestling would make this shift too, especially given the current feeling toward steroids and whatnot.

Anyway onto the actual question. No, I don't totally enjoy the current era, but not because of the wrestlers involved. The talent is fine, and in fact I'd argue it's probably the best roster overall that WWE's ever had (note I said overall. This is because other eras have had a few guys like the Rock who beat out everyone, but outside of those few greats their rosters of peers were often meh in comparison.) The reason I don't quite enjoy wrestling today is because of the 50/50 booking, and the awful writing. It's like getting together an extremely solid cast of actors and then giving them the worst possible script and director.

All of that said I've come to terms with what's going on right now. I manage to find enjoyment in what wrestling is now even if it will never actually be legitimately good again. It's pretty much a guilty pleasure to me now. A Sharknado if you will. Yeah, it's bad, but there are certain moments that are legit entertaining sprinkled in, and even the bad such as Elsworth is so bad that it's hilarious.

I have said on here before and I don't see Ryback as a giant or anything. The guy has huge muscles but is short(er) and doesn't seem strong; he seems to struggle with basic power moves. Also, Hbk, Y2J and Angle were huge compared to guys today. Even though Guerrero was short he was juiced to the gills and was larger than the guys today. They were comparatively small back then but they are still stars today and ohysical size playes a role.

[Bad News Gertner]

Eddie was fucking jacked and so was Angle. Check out Eddie vs Benoit at ONS. They were both juiced to the gills.

[Wishbone]

I have said on here before and I don't see Ryback as a giant or anything. The guy has huge muscles but is short(er) and doesn't seem strong; he seems to struggle with basic power moves. Also, Hbk, Y2J and Angle were huge compared to guys today. Even though Guerrero was short he was juiced to the gills and was larger than the guys today. They were comparatively small back then but they are still stars today and ohysical size playes a role.

You sound confused about what you yourself even believes is "big." You say that Ryback isn't big because he's short, but then say that it's not the height it's the muscles when talking about guys like Guerrero and Angle. I realize that I too was a bit vague here, but you're outright contradicting yourself.

Also, Ryback is 6' 3'' tall. Are you seriously calling that short? The Rock is only 2 inches taller, Steve Austin is 2 inches shorter, and John Cena is 3 inches shorter. Ryback is exactly the right size to be considered the prototypical WWE superstar. Same applies to Reigns. Anything over 6' is well above average height and will look like a beast next to your average man.

As for Guerrero and company being much more ripped, yes, they most certainly were, but as I stated in my previous comment muscle isn't really that relevant anymore. Those sort of physiques aren't looked at in a good light anymore by the general public. In fact most people immediately jump to say that anyone with any amount of "big" muscle is on steroids. I have literally never seen anyone argue that that sort of physique was attractive outside the wrestling world in well over a decade.

Now I'll agree that muscle tone definitely does play some roll. A guy that looks like Randy Orton or even AJ Styles (who is in great shape compared to normal people) are going to have a much easier time of looking like larger than life characters than a Kevin Owens or CM Punk, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's impossible, nor does it mean that the guy looking like Orton will actually be perceived that way. That sort of look is just icing on the cake, not a necessity. Like I said before people gravitated to the Rock, HBK, etc because of their personalities, not because of their physiques. Looks can help catch someones eye, but they can't keep them around.

Also please note that I'm not saying that looks aren't important, just that you're looking at looks in the wrong way. Lean, athletic builds are what people see as the ideal these days. Our movie stars, professional athletes, and even pop culture characters reflect that. If your assertion that the muscles and size were what was selling these guys then Brock and the like should have been pulling in massive audiences that dwarfed what the current roster does. They should have been able to pull in tons of casuals and non-wrestling fans with the "mystique" they exuded. Instead they caused slight bumps in buy-rates and that's about it. That's because even this larger than life men with bodies like Greek gods only brought in old wrestling fans who'd stopped watching. They brought in casuals who already had an interest in wrestling and likely tuned in not because they saw two monsters on a poster but because they saw their childhood heroes on said poster. It's the nostalgia, not the muscles that sold them, and that's the biggest mistake I see people here making. A lot of you seem to think that wrestling still has the ability to be as popular as it once was, and I'm sorry to say that it doesn't. Wrestling is a niche product for a nerdy subculture and children. Mainstream adults will NEVER look at wrestling as cool again and no amount of musclebound giants will ever change that.

[Ruien]

I think he means 'big' as in Big Show big.

[Wishbone]

I think he means 'big' as in Big Show big.

But it was said that the size of guys like Brock and Goldberg was their selling point. If that's the case Ryback should have sold too because he's roughly in their ballpark in terms of size.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I like AJ Styles and I honestly believe he's got an innate charisma that would allow him to stand up there with real stars. He's not out of place working with John Cena. Kevin Owens on the other hand...you can be good in the ring and good on the mic and still be missing something that really captivates people.

The WWE ran away crowds with a casual interest in wrestling, so now all that are left are the smark crowds who get in on the trends. The only thing is that they aren't as smart as they think they are, they look dumb when get worked, and they give the WWE these false ideas like Adrian Neville and Tyler Breeze are going to be stars in any sort of main event sense. They eat up shit like Broken Matt Hardy because they think it's different, and the shit we cheer for scares most sane people away.

The suspension of disbelief element of wrestling has been thrown out the window for a "hey, look at how fake we all know it is" mentality, and nobody is really over as a result. The shitty booking doesn't help anyone, but no one really knows how to be a star. They're all drinking the Vince McMahon/Triple H kool-aid of "hey, we're all a super team and everybody gets a shot."

[#1-norm-fan]

I could actually buy Kevin Owens as a mega-heel before I could buy Styles as one.

[Mr. Nerfect]

That's interesting.

[#1-norm-fan]

He's just got a better overall style. Styles is an athlete and Owens is an ass kicker. Owens looks and acts (at least when he was in NXT/when he first got called up) like one of those Vader-esque fat guys who might actually be able to beat someone up. Styles comes off more like a Mr. Perfect-esque mid carder who can feud with the top face occasionally but never in a big fight situation.

In fact, outside of Bray Wyatt, Owens might be my ideal choice for a top heel from the full-time roster.

[Stickman]

I think casual fans are turned off when they think they could beat up the wrestler. All these short skinny fat neckbeard wreslters don't translate to the casual fan. WWE is a live action cartoon/comic book. Who wants to grab a comicbook whose superhero is a regular joe? Hardcare fans do maybe.

The thhing Ryback lacked was any coordination and athletic ability. The guy was awkward and sloppy, he struggled doing power moves, and being powerful was his gimmick. It didn't work.

I am not a tough guy at all, whether on the interent or not. I don't get into fights and I steer clear of conflict. I am athletic but not a chisled god by any stretch. I am 6'4", 218lbs, I am not interested in turning on rasslin and watching guys smaller than me in height and weight competing for the heavy weight championship because it's not believable to me when they look like I can take them. Unless a smaller guy oozes charasima, can wrestle realistically, and can talk I am not tuning in to watch.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I don't think that at all. The last time that WWE got any real momentum with casuals was with CM Punk. of course, only one man could ruin it

http://i.imgur.com/rhao6.gif

[Stickman]

Punk oozes charisma and is somewhat believable in the ring.

[Ruien]

Agreed with Stickman. I fully expect the main event wrestlers to be in better shape than me or be like Braun/Kane type of big. I should never feel I can take on the world champ. I should feel like the guy would destroy me.

[Bad News Gertner]

Exactly

[Bad News Gertner]

I think casual fans are turned off when they think they could beat up the wrestler. All these short skinny fat neckbeard wreslters don't translate to the casual fan. WWE is a live action cartoon/comic book. Who wants to grab a comicbook whose superhero is a regular joe? Hardcare fans do maybe.

The thhing Ryback lacked was any coordination and athletic ability. The guy was awkward and sloppy, he struggled doing power moves, and being powerful was his gimmick. It didn't work.

I am not a tough guy at all, whether on the interent or not. I don't get into fights and I steer clear of conflict. I am athletic but not a chisled god by any stretch. I am 6'4", 218lbs, I am not interested in turning on rasslin and watching guys smaller than me in height and weight competing for the heavy weight championship because it's not believable to me when they look like I can take them. Unless a smaller guy oozes charasima, can wrestle realistically, and can talk I am not tuning in to watch.

I agree 100%.

[Bad News Gertner]

But it was said that the size of guys like Brock and Goldberg was their selling point. If that's the case Ryback should have sold too because he's roughly in their ballpark in terms of size.

He was very over until the WWE fucked it up

[#BROKEN Hasney]

He was very over until the WWE fucked it up

WWE's motto of the past decade.

[Destor]

I don't think that at all. The last time that WWE got any real momentum with casuals was with CM Punk. of course, only one man could ruin it

http://i.imgur.com/rhao6.gif

Id like to see some numbers that demonstrate punk was brining in new viewers

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Id like to see some numbers that demonstrate punk was brining in new viewers

http://www.sescoops.com/cm-punk-drawing-power/

And that's with fucking it up straight after MITB 2011. After the "pipe-bomb", Punk was in mainstream magazines and TV shows talking about it, it got the attention they weren;t getting in the pre-ESPN partnership era.

[Destor]

http://www.sescoops.com/cm-punk-drawing-power/

And that's with fucking it up straight after MITB 2011. After the "pipe-bomb", Punk was in mainstream magazines and TV shows talking about it, it got the attention they weren;t getting in the pre-ESPN partnership era.
Gotta call foul. There a lot going on during punks run. Not least of all Cena chasing the title. And then there's The rock as well. Couple that with the linchpin of the argument being battlegrounds buyrate completely ignoring the fact that there was nothing of meaning on the show. Everyone knew that show wouldnt effect mania at all. Hardly evidence of anything.

Id argue that punk pulled in departed hardcore fans that had moved on to being full time indy fans. Not casuals.

[Ruien]

I would agree. CM Punk brought this stupid era on us.

[#1-norm-fan]

I think casual fans are turned off when they think they could beat up the wrestler. All these short skinny fat neckbeard wreslters don't translate to the casual fan. WWE is a live action cartoon/comic book. Who wants to grab a comicbook whose superhero is a regular joe? Hardcare fans do maybe.

Agreed with Stickman. I fully expect the main event wrestlers to be in better shape than me or be like Braun/Kane type of big. I should never feel I can take on the world champ. I should feel like the guy would destroy me.

Exactly. Wrestling is at its best when it's larger than life. There's nothing larger than life about most of the guys the typical smark want to be stars. They're guys who will please the smarks but do nothing to bring in casual fans. And the smarks are going to watch anyway. It doesn't make sense to cater to them at the expense of building stars who can draw in a new audience.

[XL]

Gotta call foul. There a lot going on during punks run. Not least of all Cena chasing the title. And then there's The rock as well. Couple that with the linchpin of the argument being battlegrounds buyrate completely ignoring the fact that there was nothing of meaning on the show. Everyone knew that show wouldnt effect mania at all. Hardly evidence of anything.

Id argue that punk pulled in departed hardcore fans that had moved on to being full time indy fans. Not casuals.

You could pick apart anybody's "drawing power" like that. Diesel is known as one of the worst draws in WWF history but he was on top when the show was top-to-bottom garbage.

[Destor]

You could pick apart anybody's "drawing power" like that. Diesel is known as one of the worst draws in WWF history but he was on top when the show was top-to-bottom garbage.

Its especially easy when punk was vocally disgruntled because he wasnt the focus of the show during his reign. If by his own words he wasnt the center piece of the show then its successes (or failures) cant be his.

[Mr. Nerfect]

He's just got a better overall style. Styles is an athlete and Owens is an ass kicker. Owens looks and acts (at least when he was in NXT/when he first got called up) like one of those Vader-esque fat guys who might actually be able to beat someone up. Styles comes off more like a Mr. Perfect-esque mid carder who can feud with the top face occasionally but never in a big fight situation.

In fact, outside of Bray Wyatt, Owens might be my ideal choice for a top heel from the full-time roster.

I have to disagree with your assessment of Owens. It worked in NXT, I'll give you that. On main roster WWE, he has to be very close to his opponent in size to pull that off. Owens is less believable than Tazz would have been in the role. When they had him try to stand eye-to-eye with Roman Reigns a few months back, it made Reigns look like a joke for not being able to just wipe his ass with him.

AJ Styles is built like a guy who has fine-tuned his body and style to work for him. I agree with the Mr. Perfect analogy, but I'd also put him up there with Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart in terms of aura -- he's a New Generation-esque "this dude's ability is off the charts" sort of competitor. He wrestles like a star; Owens wrestles like an independent spot monkey.

[Emperor Smeat]

I think casual fans are turned off when they think they could beat up the wrestler. All these short skinny fat neckbeard wreslters don't translate to the casual fan. WWE is a live action cartoon/comic book. Who wants to grab a comicbook whose superhero is a regular joe? Hardcare fans do maybe.

The thhing Ryback lacked was any coordination and athletic ability. The guy was awkward and sloppy, he struggled doing power moves, and being powerful was his gimmick. It didn't work.

I am not a tough guy at all, whether on the interent or not. I don't get into fights and I steer clear of conflict. I am athletic but not a chisled god by any stretch. I am 6'4", 218lbs, I am not interested in turning on rasslin and watching guys smaller than me in height and weight competing for the heavy weight championship because it's not believable to me when they look like I can take them. Unless a smaller guy oozes charasima, can wrestle realistically, and can talk I am not tuning in to watch.

I'd argue somewhat the opposite in the sense casual fans were bolting en masse well before the switch away from Vince's preference or "larger than life" characters. UFC's rise n popularity and WWE getting way too lazy/horrible over the years did more damage than this era's appeal towards indie-like workers for stars. If anything, the WWE gambled way too much on Cena being able to turn his massive kids market into their future base and didn't have a backup plan for when it didn't occur.

UFC made it popular for regular looking guys to be very successful which gave it a bigger appeal than the WWE and caused the market to shift more towards their direction. Boxing had similar problems with the change and post-Tyson era but did a better a job than the WWE shifting to the smaller divisions for to generate big fight hype.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I was a big fan of Punk at the time, but was he as good as everybody is making him out to be? Was the pipe-bomb even that good a promo, or was it just that it came along in a sea of scripted bullshit? I mean, The Miz cut one good promo on Talking Smack and people were comparing it to "Hard Times." Jeez.

Punk vs. Jeff Hardy is one of my favorite feuds of the past decade, and I've never been a big Jeff Hardy fan. Those two were perfect rivals for each other though. I thought Punk's commentary run while he was injured was brilliant, and I wanted to see him go against John Cena, but his other stuff really fell flat. Punk could play well against extremely popular and charismatic babyfaces that could keep up in the ring and work to his style. His ring work as a babyface was really quite dull and repetitive (that spin into the swinging neckbreaker, the bulldog, the elbow off the top -- fucking hell), and it was all carried by how hot he got after one promo.

It was booked to shithouse, don't get me wrong. Triple H should have turned heel and been the Vince McMahon to Punk's Austin. Kevin Nash should have been nowhere near Punk or Triple H at this point in time (he should have been the bodyguard to Christian). But in retrospect, there's a reason that Punk/Jericho didn't go on last over Cena/Rock, and we can all recognize it in the pits of our stomachs. CM Punk and Chris Jericho just don't add up to being stars of the same magnitude. Punk arguably should have been the hottest act in the mid-card.

I honestly don't really miss him at all. The matches we haven't seen aren't enough to really make me wish he was around. Even the potential promos aren't making me wet, because the only pay-off to them are matches, and I'm not too keen on seeing those.

Color Commentator Punk only.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Casual fans started bolting when Stephanie McMahon took over creative. She wasn't the only driving force. Vince McMahon's ego put her in that spot and a lot of the WWF's ego during the Invasion killed a lot of interest there dead. The Undertaker deserves a lot of blame for that.

[Stickman]

Remember when The Rock came back and stood toe to toe to Cena and he made Cena look small? Cena does look like a champ but these stars from yesteryear were stars, guys today not so nuch. I think a big part of it is also charisma and understanding how to sell. Guys showing emotion and intensity helps the believability as well. Watch the Rocks facial expressions when he wresltes, watch Stone Cold, HHH, Goldberg, Lesner. These guys looked pissed off and are there for a fight. I think thats one reason why Cena and Reigns had a hard time connecting, it doesn't seem sincere.

I actually do buy Owens as a champ. Sure he isn't built great but he is built like that guy who picked on you in highschoool. He acts like that bully who picked on you. He has charisma, he can sell the opponents moveset but can sell his own moves also. He looks smug in the ring, he looks like he is there for a fight, and he does look like he could beat you up, but you want to see him get beat up. Him as a face champ would not work, definitely works as a heel.

[mitch_h]

I don't think having giant wrestlers matters all that much. Most big guys are busts anyways. I also don't think most people care about whether or not wrestlers should look like they can beat them up, I think you guys who want this are repressed homosexuals, and when you say you want to see superstars who can kick your ass, what you really want is a superstar who looks like they can pin you down and fuck you.

I also think the enormous success of the Attitude era had more to do with the direction of the overall brand. Wrestling at the time was able to tap into the weird ass late 90s early 2000s zeitgeist. I would also argue that Austin wasn't really "larger than life", if anything he was the antithesis to the larger than life characters that were so common in wrestling.


The problem right now is with the writing. WWE can't seem to tell any original, cohesive and engaging stories. Everything is meandering and repetitive or just plain stupid (see Sting v Triple H story line turning into a tired WCW v WWE angle). I feel like the last great story WWE told was Daniel Bryan's.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

I would agree. CM Punk brought this stupid era on us.

I think the real blame is WWE making everything be about social media. Tout, Twitter, Facebook etc.

[Bad News Gertner]

I'd argue somewhat the opposite in the sense casual fans were bolting en masse well before the switch away from Vince's preference or "larger than life" characters. UFC's rise n popularity and WWE getting way too lazy/horrible over the years did more damage than this era's appeal towards indie-like workers for stars. If anything, the WWE gambled way too much on Cena being able to turn his massive kids market into their future base and didn't have a backup plan for when it didn't occur.

UFC made it popular for regular looking guys to be very successful which gave it a bigger appeal than the WWE and caused the market to shift more towards their direction. Boxing had similar problems with the change and post-Tyson era but did a better a job than the WWE shifting to the smaller divisions for to generate big fight hype.

The death of the American Heavyweight boxer killed boxing. UFC and boxing moved to focusing on smaller divisions because there arent any interesting American boxers/fighters anymore. If a dominant American Heavyweight came along again, he would out draw any other fighter.

[mitch_h]

Lots of big ass wrestlers in the mid 90s and from 2006-2011 and no one gave a shit.

You aren't going to get a bunch of people tuning into 5 hours of this shit a week because some of the guys are really big and muscular.

[Ruien]

2006-2011 had a shit ton more viewers than today.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Not as much viewers as Pre-Cena.

[Bad News Gertner]

2006-2011 had a shit ton more viewers than today.

Yup

[Bad News Gertner]

Not as much viewers as Pre-Cena.

You mean the era when pretty much everyone was juiced?

[mitch_h]

Yeah dumb argument @ Ruien, and misses. As STD has implied ratings were trending downward and I don't want to get into a Cynick (although he's right) argument about how viewing habits, entertainment options are different today. My general point is how even with lots of big guys, business is not always great.

[Ruien]

Well of course having the guys who fit the correct description is only 1 variable but its still a variable.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Remember when The Rock came back and stood toe to toe to Cena and he made Cena look small? Cena does look like a champ but these stars from yesteryear were stars, guys today not so nuch. I think a big part of it is also charisma and understanding how to sell. Guys showing emotion and intensity helps the believability as well. Watch the Rocks facial expressions when he wresltes, watch Stone Cold, HHH, Goldberg, Lesner. These guys looked pissed off and are there for a fight. I think thats one reason why Cena and Reigns had a hard time connecting, it doesn't seem sincere.

I actually do buy Owens as a champ. Sure he isn't built great but he is built like that guy who picked on you in highschoool. He acts like that bully who picked on you. He has charisma, he can sell the opponents moveset but can sell his own moves also. He looks smug in the ring, he looks like he is there for a fight, and he does look like he could beat you up, but you want to see him get beat up. Him as a face champ would not work, definitely works as a heel.

Lol, Owens is shorter than 6'0. He acts like the fat kid who mutters something under his breath and then shies away when you confront him about it.

Good for a weedy heel, don't get me wrong, but I don't get where this "tough guy" visual comes from.

[mitch_h]

Well of course having the guys who fit the correct description is only 1 variable but its still a variable.

It's a variable that doesn't really mean shit. I'm not trying to argue that small, work rate guys are huge draws or anything like that.

The 80s boom was about the dismantling of the territories, and the rise of cable television and PPV. The attitude era's popularity was founded on a complete pivot away from what wrestling was at the time. It was Sable's tits, crotch chops, and a cool, beer drinking, redneck beating up his boss. It had nothing to do with big, roided up guys.

Personally I don't think this level of popularity is ever coming back. But I do think WWE can find a way to tell cool, exciting stories again, and they don't need massive guys to do so.

[Destor]

Lol, Owens is shorter than 6'0. He acts like the fat kid who mutters something under his breath and then shies away when you confront him about it.

Good for a weedy heel, don't get me wrong, but I don't get where this "tough guy" visual comes from.

Steen being a top guy in the business is basically why im against this era as a whole. Looks like a fan crawled over the barrier and started putting matches together.

If he was booked like a pussy I'd be able to deal.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

you sound like a bitter worker who's jealous of Kevin Steen.

[Destor]

you sound like a bitter worker who's jealous of Kevin Steen.

Oh on a personal level im thrilled for him. Guy lives for the business. But i cant watch the product anymore.

[Destor]

Steens position gives license to every fat twat on the indys to not hit the gym amd work in a tshirt

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Fat people can have good cardio. Just because he looks like a fat slob doesn't mean he's not in good cardiovascular shape. He's there because he has a unique look. Him succeeding doesn't mean WWE will be getting more of his type. He's the only one and will be the only one.

[Destor]

Well they have 2 already sooooooooo

[Wishbone]

Oh on a personal level im thrilled for him. Guy lives for the business. But i cant watch the product anymore.

Owens is the thing that makes it impossible for you to watch the product today? A fat guy as champ is literally the biggest reason why you can't watch the product? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but come on, dude. There are sooooo many more reasons to hate the product that are far more detrimental at this point. The product as a whole is shit these days. Blaming that on any one factor is just dumb.

[Wishbone]

Maybe everyone here is right and big muscly hulks would raise ratings (I still stand by my statement that it wouldn't have that big of an impact and will continue to until proven otherwise.) However, even if they would help the ratings it wouldn't fix the product and suddenly bring back the days of yore. Even if they fixed the writing, gave the talent more freedom like back in the day, and essentially just fixed everything wrong with the company right this minute it still wouldn't bring back the kind of audience pro-wrestling used to. We live in a different world today. The carny spectacle that is pro-wrestling just will never draw in the kind of crowds it used to ever again. They could definitely do better than they are now, but I honestly believe all of our debating about this is moot in the long run. Wrestling is going the way of its cousins, the circus and side-show. While I think wrestling has enough of a subculture around it to stay alive and not completely disappear like the former are doing I don't think it's possible to change the connotations that wrestling has in mainstream culture. I never hear non-wrestling fans say "eww you watch wrestling even though it doesn't have big stars anymore." I hear them say "eww you watch wrestling? You know it's fake and/or gay, right?" I'm sorry, but I just can't buy that going back to the old way would do anything to change that perception. In fact if anything I think it'd make it worse.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Owens is the thing that makes it impossible for you to watch the product today? A fat guy as champ is literally the biggest reason why you can't watch the product? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but come on, dude. There are sooooo many more reasons to hate the product that are far more detrimental at this point. The product as a whole is shit these days. Blaming that on any one factor is just dumb.

I dunno, man, it's a pretty big turn-off for me too.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Just the other day I heard two guys at the pub talking about UFC. These are the sort of guys that would make fun of a guy for liking "fake pussy" wrestling. They were talking about one of the guys in one of the fights -- I dunno, but it was the heel. And I say heel, because they were honestly talking about the guy being a cocky prick they want to see get his shit sorted.

You can still work people in 2016. A lot of people didn't know what the fuck was going on with CM Punk in 2011. People got fucking worked by The Miz talking shit to Daniel Bryan on a SmackDown post-show. You get guys that people think could beat the shit out of each other, and you can convey the idea that their ego won't allow them to be walked over, because they're the real deal -- you've got potential draws.

Everybody is so convinced that wrestling is an indy circle jerk that no one even fucking tries anymore. The Revival tried and got heat with Bubba Ray Dudley and Road Dogg for fuck's sake.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Steen being a top guy in the business is basically why im against this era as a whole. Looks like a fan crawled over the barrier and started putting matches together.

If he was booked like a pussy I'd be able to deal.

I think I told this in 100,001 replies, but I showed him to a friend and she thought he was a joke wrestler, just because he's so "not what you'd expect." You'd think it'd be in a good way, but not so. He's the antithesis of what people associate with wrestling in many ways. It never dawned on me until someone laid it out like that. He doesn't look ripped, he doesn't have crazy hair, he's not loud and riddled with catchphrases, he does "joke moves" (that was in respond to him faking a dive and hitting a clothesline) and he does a "stand-up routine." He was described as a kid trying to be cool. I honestly think you need to be a smark to "get him." If you like wrestling, you might have time for his shtick, but he's not hooking your average person.

But she also thought Dolph Ziggler was a freak too. That's just anecdotal, but maybe we should face the fact that some of the guys "we" love just don't draw. Sorry guys.

When it comes to a guy like Kevin Owens, I think about Bobby Heenan. Now, I might be off on this. I've looked for the reason Bobby Heenan quit being an active wrestler. I've heard he was a pretty good worker though. Maybe he got injured and tried to make another go of it, but he still took the occasional bump as a manager. I look at Heenan and I don't see a wrestler though. I see a smug weasel whose brain is his best weapon, realized it, and became a bonafide legend because of it.

Heenan might have been a wonderful wrestler, but he was never going to be the AWA World Heavyweight Champion, or WWF World Champion. He could manage them though. I hate to sound like millenial-hating CyNick, but we live in a world now where everybody gets a turn, and if a dude can technically take bumps and chain together a sequence of moves, then he's counted as a worker and he gets the same sort of push as someone else. Brian Hildebrand becomes to mind too. He was apparently a great little worker, but was too small to be a threat in the day, so he was a referee.

Now it's like "Well, Spike Dudley works hard and can put together some moves. Maybe we should make him the World Champion? It'd be different and people seem to really love Spike." You're seeing James Ellsworth beat the WWE Champion each week, Kevin Owens is the RAW World Champion, Goldberg is legitimately the most bad-ass star they have in 2016, and it's fine that he beat Brock Lesnar because no one else could do it believably. But it's all fine, because the boys can all "work" right. Part of working is making people believe in you, thus putting asses in seats.

I'm just ranting and raving now, but I honestly think it is more damaging to the business than a "feel good" brigade would have you think. Somewhere the ceiling became lower and the prerequisites for being a top guy were lifted. Do you really think Kevin Owens is better than Bobby Heenan? It seems like a weird comparison to make, but I need to use someone that is loved that never got given a World Title despite their talent. What about Brad Armstrong? Dean Malenko? Mr. Perfect? These guys never got WCW or WWF World Title reigns, despite being so good in the ring; Mr. Perfect was good on the mic too. But apparently you're a cunt for thinking that maybe the nut-busting for Kevin Owens isn't proportionate.

[Blonde Moment]

Dean Malenko? Mr. Perfect? These guys never got WCW or WWF World Title reigns, despite being so good in the ring; Mr. Perfect was good on the mic too. But apparently you're a cunt for thinking that maybe the nut-busting for Kevin Owens isn't proportionate.
The thing is these guys were over with the crowds but just didn't have the politicking ability of a Hulk Hogan.

Would Perfect have replaced Bret Hart in the title picture if he would not have gotten injured?

[Mr. Nerfect]

These are fair points, and maybe Owens is a master of politics, but is he really the A1 guy? Is he really that over?

[Bad News Gertner]

Kevin Owens = Tank Abbott in the UFC (not WCW lol). I get the appeal.

[Blonde Moment]

These are fair points, and maybe Owens is a master of politics, but is he really the A1 guy? Is he really that over?
He has the tools to get himself over and is in the position to be able to work with larger and small opponents and make it look "real". In an era with no managers he has the means to get himself over and be entertaining. He has "it" for the current era. I think where he might be on a roster would depend on the era.

[Destor]

Owens is the thing that makes it impossible for you to watch the product today? A fat guy as champ is literally the biggest reason why you can't watch the product? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but come on, dude. There are sooooo many more reasons to hate the product that are far more detrimental at this point. The product as a whole is shit these days. Blaming that on any one factor is just dumb.

I think if he's the top guy you diminish the product completely. I look at him the same way you would look at David Arquette.

[Nicky Fives]

I'd rather have a loud crowd than a silent one, so I like the crowds.

Love them or hate them, it's all WWE's fault for them. They've driven away their casual audience with terrible TV and that's all they have left.

:y:

[Evil Vito]

I feel WWE's problems are far more an issue of booking that an issue of people not having "the look". Yes dudes like James Ellsworth and Colin Delaney look like complete jobbers and should be presented as such (get the shit beat out of them, when they win it's only because they got a significant amount of help) - but I don't think smaller wrestlers automatically turn off the audience if they end up headlining. I feel it can be booked believably in a way that the entire audience would accept, it just takes perfect execution - which WWE doesn't often do.

But if they're trying to draw in kids - I don't think kids are terribly picky about their wrasslers. Smaller guys probably appeal to them more than adults because when a kid sees a smaller wrestler succeeding it could make them think that someday, they could do the same thing. Basically I think if a kid likes wrestling they're going to eat it up no matter who's on.

[Evil Vito]

Just stop with the 50/50 booking bullshit. No matter who you're pushing - big guy, small guy, whatever...you don't need every wrestler on the goddamn roster trading wins with each other every week. And don't have two guys who are supposed to have a marquee PPV match wrestle each other 4854395894859 times in the build up to that PPV. Certainly not in singles action and if it's a tag match, the heel champion should want to tag the fuck out as soon as the guy he's feuding gets tagged in. Give people a reason to want to see the face get his hands on the heel at the PPV.

[Juan]

I don't think I've ever seen/met a wrestling fan that could "take" any WWE wrestler lol

[Bad News Gertner]

I would destroy Curtis Axel. Said it for years and he knows it.

[Destor]

I would destroy Curtis Axel. Said it for years and he knows it.

:lol:

[Ruien]

I don't think I've ever seen/met a wrestling fan that could "take" any WWE wrestler lol

Pretty sure I could kick Scott Hall's ass with 1 hand tied behind my back.

[Rammsteinmad]

But if they're trying to draw in kids - I don't think kids are terribly picky about their wrasslers. Smaller guys probably appeal to them more than adults because when a kid sees a smaller wrestler succeeding it could make them think that someday, they could do the same thing. Basically I think if a kid likes wrestling they're going to eat it up no matter who's on.

To be fair, to most kids any wrestler is probably a hugely larger than life personality. I remember watching WCW back in the day (born in '87 so you figure it out), and even guys like Juventud Guerrera and Lash LaRoux were all "huge superstars" to me.

I know wrestling fans today are generally more "educated" and the business has opened up a lot since the 90's, but kids are still kids.

[The CyNick]

It's a variable that doesn't really mean shit. I'm not trying to argue that small, work rate guys are huge draws or anything like that.

The 80s boom was about the dismantling of the territories, and the rise of cable television and PPV. The attitude era's popularity was founded on a complete pivot away from what wrestling was at the time. It was Sable's tits, crotch chops, and a cool, beer drinking, redneck beating up his boss. It had nothing to do with big, roided up guys.

Personally I don't think this level of popularity is ever coming back. But I do think WWE can find a way to tell cool, exciting stories again, and they don't need massive guys to do so.

The thing that a lot of people gloss over is that even though ratings are way down from its peak, it's still an episodic program that has been consistently one of the most watched things on cable every single week. No other shows can lay the same claim and produce the amount of product WWE does.

I look at something like TWD, which has amazing ratings, but have been in steady decline for some time now. Eventually the show will pewter out and disappear. Meanehile, I could easily see 20 years from now WWE still having programming in the top 10 in cable every week.

I think it's very possible to see ratings come back, it just takes the right personalities at the right time. There was a time when people said game shows were dead. Then things like Millionaire came around and suddenly they were all the rage. Now they're dead again. It's the nature of people who follow fads.

The cool thing about being a sports entertainment fan in the modern era is for only $10 a month, you get access to so much great programming, and I really believe there's something for everyone. The NXT stuff appeals to the hardcore wrestling fan, 205 will appeal to fans of smaller guys, the future women's show will appeal to another subset. On top of that you can watch any era from the past at your leisure. Plus get all the new content and the original programming they have spearheaded.

So I think you're left with a scenario where perhaps fewer people are watching on traditionsl platforms, but you're growing the base of fans that provide revenue to the company by providing them more and more bang for their buck. As a fan of the product that's a good thing. If I was the type of person that needs to have 7 million people watching what I'm watching because I need that validation from others, then I likely will be disappointed.

[The CyNick]

Just the other day I heard two guys at the pub talking about UFC. These are the sort of guys that would make fun of a guy for liking "fake pussy" wrestling. They were talking about one of the guys in one of the fights -- I dunno, but it was the heel. And I say heel, because they were honestly talking about the guy being a cocky prick they want to see get his shit sorted.

You can still work people in 2016. A lot of people didn't know what the fuck was going on with CM Punk in 2011. People got fucking worked by The Miz talking shit to Daniel Bryan on a SmackDown post-show. You get guys that people think could beat the shit out of each other, and you can convey the idea that their ego won't allow them to be walked over, because they're the real deal -- you've got potential draws.

Everybody is so convinced that wrestling is an indy circle jerk that no one even fucking tries anymore. The Revival tried and got heat with Bubba Ray Dudley and Road Dogg for fuck's sake.

You can't compare wanting to see someone get their ass kicked in UFC vs. wanting to see someone get fake beat up in sports entertainment. It's like saying if the Joker-Batman dynamic in The Dark Knight movie was good enough, you would want to see Joker get beat up as much as people wanted to see Bin Laden killed for 9/11.

You mentioned CM Punk, I don't think anyone outside regular sports entertainment fans knew anything about that angle. And further I don't know anyone with a decent amount of intelligence thought that was anything other than an angle. And it wasn't even that great of an angle to begin with because CM Punk had no credibility. He was claiming to be the best, but he was clearly inferior to the guy who was in the ring while he was cutting the promo.

I can't think of any angles in the last 20 years that people thought was legit.

[The CyNick]

Just stop with the 50/50 booking bullshit. No matter who you're pushing - big guy, small guy, whatever...you don't need every wrestler on the goddamn roster trading wins with each other every week. And don't have two guys who are supposed to have a marquee PPV match wrestle each other 4854395894859 times in the build up to that PPV. Certainly not in singles action and if it's a tag match, the heel champion should want to tag the fuck out as soon as the guy he's feuding gets tagged in. Give people a reason to want to see the face get his hands on the heel at the PPV.

This is an overblown complaint that I just don't understand.

Look at MMA. The programs that go to three fights almost always do better by the time they get to the third fight.

In the Attitude Era, guys traded wins all the time. I believe Rock and Mick had 7 major TV or PPV matches in which they went back and forth with wins. All of their PPVs did well, and they drew very strong ratings. Rock and Hunter went back and forth and continued to do huge numbers. Austin and Taker exchanged wins and then did one of biggest TV ratings in cable wrestling history.

The difference between then and now is Rock was superior to Roman Reigns, Austin superior to Dean Ambrose, HHH superior to Seth Rollins, Foley superior to Kevin Owens, Taker superior to Bray Wyatt, HBK superior to AJ Styles and on and on.

[Emperor Smeat]

The thing that a lot of people gloss over is that even though ratings are way down from its peak, it's still an episodic program that has been consistently one of the most watched things on cable every single week. No other shows can lay the same claim and produce the amount of product WWE does.

I look at something like TWD, which has amazing ratings, but have been in steady decline for some time now. Eventually the show will pewter out and disappear. Meanehile, I could easily see 20 years from now WWE still having programming in the top 10 in cable every week.

I think it's very possible to see ratings come back, it just takes the right personalities at the right time ...

The cool thing about being a sports entertainment fan in the modern era is for only $10 a month, you get access to so much great programming, and I really believe there's something for everyone. The NXT stuff appeals to the hardcore wrestling fan, 205 will appeal to fans of smaller guys, the future women's show will appeal to another subset. On top of that you can watch any era from the past at your leisure. Plus get all the new content and the original programming they have spearheaded.

:lol: at using TWD again to claim the WWE is better. You did this several times before and each time forgetting how massive TWD viewer base is compared to WWE's and their drops following the traditional pattern for tv show seasons. Meanwhile WWE has been dropping yearly ever since the end of the Attitude Era with the 3 Hour Era producing larger yearly drops. WWE's pretty much down to their core audience since Cena wasn't able to bring in the next gen of long term fans.

This season had the 2nd highest ever premiere in series history and improved from the previous premiere. It is trending downward but is also very early in the season so worst case scenario for this season is maybe Season 3 numbers which would still put it around 3x larger than WWE's overall.

You also way overestimating how valuable the Network is to the mainstream and wrestling fans or else WWE wouldn't be struggling to sell Network subs at the rate they were expecting by now. They expected 3-4 million by now and only have around half of it in terms of paid subs.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't think I've ever seen/met a wrestling fan that could "take" any WWE wrestler lol

This is a moot point. It's about perception. I don't get where this tough guy perception of Kevin Owens comes from. The company is too afraid to let Owens take off his shirt.

[Mr. Nerfect]

CyNick logic: Discredits link between MMA and wrestling in one post; in the next links MMA and wrestling. Nice job, Nicky. You're a hack. Get the fuck out.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think it was Vito who said he would rather have a loud crowd than a quiet crowd. Are the crowds today even loud? They go mild for most shit.

[#1-norm-fan]

I look at something like TWD, which has amazing ratings, but have been in steady decline for some time now.

:lol: at using TWD again to claim the WWE is better. You did this several times before and each time forgetting how massive TWD viewer base is compared to WWE's and their drops following the traditional pattern for tv show seasons. Meanwhile WWE has been dropping yearly ever since the end of the Attitude Era with the 3 Hour Era producing larger yearly drops. WWE's pretty much down to their core audience since Cena wasn't able to bring in the next gen of long term fans.

The Walking Dead average ratings per episode (in millions)...

Season 1: 5.24
Season 2: 6.90
Season 3: 10.40
Season 4: 13.30
Season 5: 14.40
Season 6: 13.15
Season 7: TBD

The Walking Dead season premiere ratings...
Season 1: 5.35
Season 2: 7.26
Season 3: 10.87
Season 4: 16.11
Season 5: 17.30
Season 6: 14.63
Season 7: 17.03

Man. Look at that steady decline.

Again, for everyone who still wishes to take The CyNick seriously... just... come on...

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Id argue that punk pulled in departed hardcore fans that had moved on to being full time indy fans. Not casuals.

Yeah, you're probably right, but he made an uptick of viewers in general and a lot of that analysis also focused on the whole year when his appeal had already been squashed at Summerslam. If he did have more mainstream appeal, that was all turned off within a month.

I think the whole 50/50 booking thing is driving away casual fans. What's the point in the weekly shows? Since the brand split, Smackdown has gotten better at this, but it doesn't matter who won on Raw at all since it doesn't advance anything. The only people tuning in will be these hoping for a good match.

[Evil Vito]

This is a moot point. It's about perception. I don't get where this tough guy perception of Kevin Owens comes from. The company is too afraid to let Owens take off his shirt.

Who cares if he wears a shirt? If I'm in a bar, Kevin Owens looks like one of the last people I'd want to fuck with.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Really? Are you being serious?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Really? Are you being serious?

I wouldn't want to mess with him. Fat doesn't mean unfit or a pussy.

[Ruien]

You people are silly.

[Sepholio]

I've never been hit harder in my life than being hit by someone built like owens. He would Def be one of the last people I'd pick a fight with.

[Evil Vito]

I can't imagine what type of world you live in if you don't think Kevin Owens looks like somebody who could believably kick a dude's ass. Especially compared to many of the smaller dudes on the roster.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Who cares if he wears a shirt? If I'm in a bar, Kevin Owens looks like one of the last people I'd want to fuck with.

Noid wants to see those glistening pecs.

[Wishbone]

In all honesty I think a lot of the people in here saying Owens doesn't look like he could kick someone's ass haven't actually been in many real fights. I'm no badass (in fact I'm quite the chicken-shit) but I've been hit enough times to know that you don't need the kind of muscles a Lesnar or Goldberg has to hurt someone.

[Ruien]

If Owens fucked your girlfriend/wife would you go after him? If Lesnar fucked your girlfriend/wife would you go after him? AJ? Cena?

Even in the heat of the moment I would cower to Cena and Lesnar.

[Ruien]

Anyways this thread has reached a terrible point. Sad day. Thought it had a lot of legs left too.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I wouldn't want to mess with him. Fat doesn't mean unfit or a pussy.

No, but come on. And, for the record, I think Kevin Owens must be fit as fuck to do the things he can do. Just don't tell me you're more afraid of him than Samoa Joe. Or even a 50-year old Undertaker. Or Brock Lesnar.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Anyways this thread has reached a terrible point. Sad day. Thought it had a lot of legs left too.

I agree with this.

[Mr. Nerfect]

This discussion is so stupid in a "my dad could beat up your dad" kind of way, but I genuinely feel sorry for all you guys that are scared of Kevin Owens. Like, fair played to enjoying his ring work and being a fan of the things the guy can do -- but to actually be the last person you'd fuck with in a bar? Good lord. This is the last I am going to say on such a ridiculous subject.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Anyway, you might have missed #1-wwf-fan destroying "expert debater" CyNick again. I recommend checking that out.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Really pisses me off when crowds do tired chants time after time. Seems like any face wins a title and in their first promo the crowd is already doing loud "YOU DESERVE IT!" chants. It's becoming the new "WHAT?!", which seriously just needs to stop.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Nothing wrong with the fans showing respect like that. WHAT is a distraction.

[Wishbone]

If Owens fucked your girlfriend/wife would you go after him? If Lesnar fucked your girlfriend/wife would you go after him? AJ? Cena?

Even in the heat of the moment I would cower to Cena and Lesnar.

I wouldn't go after anyone in that situation because neither prison nor a hospital sound good to me. Besides if anything I'd be more pissed at my wife than I was at the guy.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Nothing wrong with the fans showing respect like that. WHAT is a distraction.

Not every face champion is deserving just because Vince thinks so. Lot of them aren't over at all and still get titles they shouldn't have.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

If Owens fucked your girlfriend/wife would you go after him? If Lesnar fucked your girlfriend/wife would you go after him? AJ? Cena?

Even in the heat of the moment I would cower to Cena and Lesnar.

Would you write them a stern letter instead?

[Bad News Gertner]

Well well well, look what the cat dragged in

[Fignuts]

I dunno

Smark era has given us a lot of really good matches. Could probably use more good big guys. They are impressive to see and all that, but I'll take Cena vs Styles and Owens vs Zayn over Braun vs Rowan any day.

[#1-norm-fan]

I couldn't care less about those really good matches anymore because none of it matters. Like the broken one known as Hasney said above...

it doesn't matter who won on Raw at all since it doesn't advance anything. The only people tuning in will be these hoping for a good match.

Cesaro and Dolph Ziggler put on a technical classic. Cool. I have no interest in it. Neither one gains or loses anything from it. It's just two dudes fighting ultimately for nothing because we're in an era where it's been made perfectly clear that there's no consequence to any match unless it's a direct one like for a title or some other kind of reward. And the titles don't really mean shit anymore so even that can only capture my interest so much.

[#1-norm-fan]

At least Raw has brought back squash matches which I'm all for. They actually serve a purpose. They're an exhibition to show one guy's dominance. It means SOMETHING. Much more than the 5 star match between two 50/50 booked guys that you know will lead to nothing.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Yeah, and I think that's why a lot of Survivor Series fell flat for me as well. I mean, what were the stakes? Why should I got which TV program got the W?

[Ruien]

I wouldn't go after anyone in that situation because neither prison nor a hospital sound good to me. Besides if anything I'd be more pissed at my wife than I was at the guy.

Oh my lord. Fine, say they murdered your mother.

[Ruien]

At least Raw has brought back squash matches which I'm all for. They actually serve a purpose. They're an exhibition to show one guy's dominance. It means SOMETHING. Much more than the 5 star match between two 50/50 booked guys that you know will lead to nothing.

Agreed. I am all for 50/50 booking when you have mid-card guys in no where land when they are going against each other. But you need the dominate guys who win 80 to 90% of the time.

Could not agree more with caring less about good matches. I see 'classics' on every ppv now.

[#1-norm-fan]

50/50 booking is fine sometimes. Some guys are equals. It makes sense. When it's happening across the board with just about every feud so that everyone is equal though, it helps no one and makes everything seem pointless.

[Juan]

I dunno

Smark era has given us a lot of really good matches. Could probably use more good big guys. They are impressive to see and all that, but I'll take Cena vs Styles and Owens vs Zayn over Braun vs Rowan any day.

Agreed

[Evil Vito]

Wrestling works best when there are guys and gals of all shapes and sizes and you get different styles of wrestling in the mix. There's something for everybody. That's why I don't at all buy into the idea of fans being turned off of the product because not enough guys have the right "look". Maybe some are, but I don't think that's the main reason people leave.

The main reason people leave is because the booking is fucking dreadful and goes in a never-ending circle.

[Evil Vito]

Cesaro and Dolph Ziggler put on a technical classic. Cool. I have no interest in it. Neither one gains or loses anything from it. It's just two dudes fighting ultimately for nothing because we're in an era where it's been made perfectly clear that there's no consequence to any match unless it's a direct one like for a title or some other kind of reward. And the titles don't really mean shit anymore so even that can only capture my interest so much.

This is exactly it. The in-ring WWE product has NEVER been better. The roster is stacked with incredible performers putting on great matches every week, but nothing ever happens. Midcard stories in particular seem to mean dick all, and I find it impossible to get invested in them because years of booking has taught me that whatever happens will be forgotten about within a month.

[Destor]

Wrestling works best when there are guys and gals of all shapes and sizes and you get different styles of wrestling in the mix. There's something for everybody. That's why I don't at all buy into the idea of fans being turned off of the product because not enough guys have the right "look". Maybe some are, but I don't think that's the main reason people leave.

The main reason people leave is because the booking is fucking dreadful and goes in a never-ending circle.

And some of that awful booking is using guys who look like marks as tough guys.

Steen would make an excellent every man underdog baby getting little shine and one sided heats stealing wins with flash pins.

[Evil Vito]

A 6', 260 lb man being an underdog babyface getting fluke wins. I wonder why you aren't on creative.

[Destor]

A 6', 260 lb man being an underdog babyface getting fluke wins. I wonder why you aren't on creative.

Lol you believe those stats are real. 6' in boots MAYBE

[Cool King]

Yeah, I think Owens is around 5'10”/5'11”, but I'm just going by photographs.

He's much smaller than Seth Rollins who is 6'1”, but the size difference between Rollins and Bálor doesn't look as big as the difference between Rollins and Owens.

http://i.imgur.com/acWRDBE.jpg

https://s13.postimg.org/42hz784dz/rsz_1wwe_raw_finn_balor_demon_king_seth_rollins.jpg

[Evil Vito]

Lol you believe those stats are real. 6' in boots MAYBE

Who cares if it's off by an inch or two? He's still 260 lbs. The idea of having him being a babyface who can only get fluke wins is hilarious. It's not like he's James Ellsworth.

[Stickman]

This is exactly it. The in-ring WWE product has NEVER been better. The roster is stacked with incredible performers putting on great matches every week, but nothing ever happens. Midcard stories in particular seem to mean dick all, and I find it impossible to get invested in them because years of booking has taught me that whatever happens will be forgotten about within a month.

I am not sure if I can agree with the in ring product being best nowadays. They have banned so many moves, many guys have weak looking finishers, finishers don't mean anything, as I said earlier guys don't seem to sell all that well anymore, I think the in ring product now is dull. A prime example is the cruiserweights, I don't find their in ring product compelling at all, for the first time ever I see what the wwe style is. The Miz got flack by DB for wrestling too wwe style but he is the prototypical wwe style wrestler but what he does very well is show emotion and sell so I can buy him as legit. Most guys now wrestle that style but lack the personality to make it compelling.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And some of that awful booking is using guys who look like marks as tough guys.

Steen would make an excellent every man underdog baby getting little shine and one sided heats stealing wins with flash pins.

Yeah see, but he's 260 pounds and has a bad attitude so it wouldn't work. The fact that he's not built like a stud makes him work even more as a heel. You're clinging desperately to something utterly subjective.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The problem with guys that look like marks being pushed as world-beaters is that it exposes how fake it is, for one, but also that a smaller guy needs to be better than a bigger guy to get that heat over him. Owens reportedly wanted The Undertaker match. I'm not the biggest Taker fan in the world, but let's assume he was a total pro he wanted to do business -- for him to get beaten down by Owens, he's going to need to concede that a dude half his age but looks twice as bad is better pound-for-pound than he is. That's the only way it makes sense. Dean Ambrose had a bit of a whinge about Brock not wanting to do work with him, but when the dude is built like a retired swimmer, why would Brock want to give him anything?

Wrestling is a work, but a lot of people forget that you're trying to convince people that it is real. I fell into the trap of thinking ironic wrestling could work a few years ago. My thinking was that you can't point out how ridiculously fake it is if it's obviously ridiculously fake, but that's like making a bad movie on purpose so that no one can tell you how bad it is. Give it a real shot and try and make some real money. But no one wants to concede that we can't all be The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, "Rowdy" Roddy Piper, Jerry "The King" Lawler or Terry Funk. Now the mentality is that if you start young, go to the gym every day, bust your ass and don't do drugs -- you too can be a WWE Superstar. But everyone forgets that those guys are Superstars because they are so far removed from your average person is.

That's why a dude like Goldberg, at 50 -- and a performer not known for his versatility -- can walk into a WWE ring in 2016 and legitimately look cooler than everybody else in the world. Because he's actually a) a real man, and b) charismatic as fuck. To clarify a) -- I'm all for social and cultural progression -- I want to work with a bunch of cool dudes that aren't going to make me afraid to be a human around them. I don't necessarily want to see that in professional wrestling though -- which is a testosterone-fueled shit-show. Wrestling is where I want to see my freaks and antiquated cowboys.

Charisma makes the wrestling business work -- you have to be able to lure people into the aura of whatever it is you are doing. Charisma =/= promo ability or ring skill. Charisma can be visual too. People don't seem to get that. There are physical presences that own space. It's not just because they are big. It can be how they stand, what they convey with their face, how they walk, what gears you can and can't see turning in their head when they are out there.

Wrestling is filled with a bunch of normies. If The Rock came back and had heat with Kevin Owens, for example -- Owens can be as articulate or as cool to indy geeks as he wants to be, if The Rock says "Go take a shower, fat boy" it's over. Owens cannot say ANYTHING back to The Rock. "Go back to Hollywood, Dwayne" will be met with "Go back to Best Buy, Kevin."

There are no genuine stars full-time on the roster. You could maybe count John Cena or Randy Orton, but I don't even know if you consider them full-time now. They're going to be that next generation of Rock, Taker, Brock, etc. who just come back when they realize they need someone that going to make people remember when wrestling was good.

Destor is 100% correct when he says part of the booking is that you have guys with no physical charisma being placed into situations where the proposition is "trust us." No, you're supposed to make me a believer in this guy before you put a fake red belt on him and tell me that he's supposedly ruthless. There might be an everyman self-made bad-ass charisma in Owens somewhere. Maybe he could be that one guy on the roster who was told "you don't look the part" so he went, became nasty, trained his ass off, can do things no one else can do, and even managed to find love and start a family while he was at it -- maybe people could see Owens as the aesthetically bland sort of dude fighting to make his kids proud. Booking could bring that out of him. What you can't do is tell me that I'm afraid of him, because I'm not.

The chess player is a problem, but you have a board full of pawns at the moment, and very few people have the attitude to be a star. Goldberg has that attitude and has outshone absolutely everybody. Shove your funny promos and your 20-minute television "classics" -- give me Goldberg Spearing the shit out of Brock Lesnar and looking like a mega-star while he's doing it.

[Shisen Kopf]

If Owens fucked your girlfriend/wife would you go after him? If Lesnar fucked your girlfriend/wife would you go after him? AJ? Cena?

Even in the heat of the moment I would cower to Cena and Lesnar.

What if he emailed your girlfriend? Wonder what gertner would do?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Sorry Noidy, but fat guys can kick ass in a real fight, the fact that Owens can move the way he does should prove that to you.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Owens also doesn't look like a "mark", he looks like props I used to play rugby with. He looks like an athlete who carries extra fat.

I think appearance DOES matter and with Owens, his appearance HELPS his character, it's all a part of who he is.

It's not like Chris Hero who was billed as a badass fighting machine and he was skinny fat.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I am not sure if I can agree with the in ring product being best nowadays. They have banned so many moves, many guys have weak looking finishers, finishers don't mean anything, as I said earlier guys don't seem to sell all that well anymore, I think the in ring product now is dull. A prime example is the cruiserweights, I don't find their in ring product compelling at all, for the first time ever I see what the wwe style is. The Miz got flack by DB for wrestling too wwe style but he is the prototypical wwe style wrestler but what he does very well is show emotion and sell so I can buy him as legit. Most guys now wrestle that style but lack the personality to make it compelling.

100% this. Well, right up until The Miz part.

Every match is the fucking same. I really started souring on things when I saw a Cena/Rollins match on RAW last year actually. Rollins hit a top rope superplex which he rolled into a Falcon Arrow and Cena kicked out at two. There are false falls, then there is false drama. I am getting sick of guys hitting moves that they've seen in a video game -- moves they have never won a match with before, mind you -- getting only a two count as they hold their face like this is the most shocking thing in the world as a bunch of self-aggrandizing idiots in the crowd start a "This is awesome!" chant just before the go-home spot where the guy who won the last match sees something shiny and gets rolled up and then acts shocked that when he gave his back to his opponent after seeing something shiny, he was taken advantage of in a fight.

The last WWE PPV I watched was Clash of Champions. Every...match...was...the...same. All of them. Heel goes out, face dives out, gets distracted by something shiny, heel beats him down, hold, hold, hold, comeback, everybody kicks out of everybody's finishes, one works, nothing changes. No one sells wins and losses anymore. You can discuss the semantics of what you mean when someone says "wins and losses do/don't matter," but the people who are over are the ones who fucking sell wins and sell losses. If you're losing, find a way to lose like a fucking king and make it seem like a kingdom is crumbling around you; if you are winning, find a way to make it seem like that "W" in the record book is vindication of 15 years hard work and training.

Nothing matters. It's the booking, but it's the selling too. And it's the same fucking long matches with the same fucking story and the same fucking sequence of events every time. How are you supposed to mine actual fucking drama from a casual audience who is smart enough to say "Hang on, why did that dumb fuck just do the same thing as the guy in the last match?" When you go back and you watch matches from the Attitude era, they may not be a crisp or as clean, but they were actually more fun to watch, because they feel a lot more organic.

The script is killing people and I honestly don't think they realize it, because they actually believe the myth that the ring product is better. The ring product's job is to draw. Yeah...not better. In the snappier television period, the matches were shorter, but you also didn't get completely sick of guys doing the same thing every week, because the holistic full-match experience was saved for PPV, if ever.

I really wonder if the guys wrestling today see value in individuality? I'm projecting like hell here, but I could totally imagine them being proud of doing the same thing as each other, but just doing it louder...but not too loud. They strike me like cheeky kids not waking mom and dad in the next room at a sleepover.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Owens also doesn't look like a "mark", he looks like props I used to play rugby with. He looks like an athlete who carries extra fat.

I think appearance DOES matter and with Owens, his appearance HELPS his character, it's all a part of who he is.

It's not like Chris Hero who was billed as a badass fighting machine and he was skinny fat.

Lol, Owens does not look like a rugby player.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Anyone from the States who doesn't follow rugby, do a Google image search of "rugby player." I get what Dale is trying to say -- a lot of rugby players aren't "cut" so much as they are bulky tanks, but do that Google search for yourself.

[Mr. Nerfect]

http://e0.365dm.com/16/08/16-9/20/all-blacks-new-zealand-bledisloe-cup_3773289.jpg?20160827111914

Look at all those Kevin Owenseses...

[Mr. Nerfect]

Here's Daniel Vidot, the Australian rugby player that WWE were looking at a while ago:

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/9b09d9117e13ddb3dc98b3d867930b5a?width=650

A spitting image for Kevin Owens, I think you'll agree.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Obviously there are different positions and there are some bulkier members of rugby league or union teams. Some of them are "built like builders" as we say over here. They've got a bit of a gut and, as mentioned, aren't cut. You can kind of see how they don't all look like underwear models in this picture.

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Australian+Wallabies+Captain+Run+UvbETvRueCVl.jpg

I guess maybe they do look like Kevin Owens.

[Ruien]

Even so Dale, it's not JUST Owens. It's everyone. It's WWE putting the title on Balor. It's AJ Styles. It's the fact no one looks larger than life. No one. Sure, there will be a coulee guys that look like Y2J in the main event scene but there should always be larger than life wrestlers.

Maybe Braun will fill the need for the new giant but lord knows they will have him job to Reigns and then Rollins. He will then start dancing around or if he is lucky back to the Wyatt Family.

There needs to be wrestlers to become the next Cena and Orton but there isn't any.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Wait a minute! I found Kevin Owens!

http://www-static3.spulsecdn.net/pics/00/02/86/48/2864865_1_L.jpg

[Ruien]

Lol at Noid.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Just going to leave this here:

http://i.imgur.com/wdxUWc6.jpg

[Mr. Nerfect]

I feel mean ripping on Owens for the way he looks. The dude is clearly a freak athlete. I don't even think he looks bad for a regular human dude. He's got a handsome charm to him, and he obviously works hard in the gym to stay in shape and keep the pace he does. He seems well-liked now that he's in a company where he sees actual growth and progression.

I actually know a dude who looks very similar to Kevin Owens and has actually had some boxing success. I'm not saying that a dude like Owens can't be tough. Sin Cara is legitimately tough. Haku is legitimately tough. Being actually tough is one thing. Looking like you are tough is another, and being larger than life is another still.

[Sepholio]

No, but come on. And, for the record, I think Kevin Owens must be fit as fuck to do the things he can do. Just don't tell me you're more afraid of him than Samoa Joe. Or even a 50-year old Undertaker. Or Brock Lesnar.

Maybe not Joe or Lesnar but if faced with a choice between fighting Owens or Undertaker I'm picking Taker. I may not be able to whoop his ass but I'd have a chance of outlasting him. He gets tired way faster than Brock and isn't 1/4th as intimidating anymore.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Owens looks like the "big-boned" kid who does surprisingly well in a fight when you psyche him up. I'm sorry, that's just my perception of him. Maybe that's entirely subjective, because I actually do see something larger than life in Styles -- it's the same quality that Shawn Michaels had. It's this ability to surround yourself in your wrestling talent when you make an entrance. AJ Styles seems a lot more bulletproof and adaptable as an in-ring talent to me. But that might just be me looking for the hottest mid-carder in a roster full of them.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Maybe not Joe or Lesnar but if faced with a choice between fighting Owens or Undertaker I'm picking Taker. I may not be able to whoop his ass but I'd have a chance of outlasting him. He gets tired way faster than Brock and isn't 1/4th as intimidating anymore.

I've never even been a mark for the mystique of Taker, but I'm not even looking at him sideways. He's "Mr. Undertaker" to me if I'm ever around him. I think ya'll nuts.

[Ruien]

Styles falls in the Y2J category for me. Amazing at what he does which puts him in the main event.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah, that's where I fall on him. :y:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Chris Jericho & Kevin Owens, for the record, could be a wonderful tag team. If I were booking, they'd probably get the Tag Titles for as long as they wanted them. I'm not saying I'd fire Owens or anything. In fact, I was for putting the RAW World Title on him after Balor got injured (well, I'd have gone with Brock, but of the four who qualified for the Four-Way). I just would have turned him face in the process and used Reigns as his first heel adversary. Move Rollins and Zayn into a program against each other and have Jericho on the periphery riding Owens' coattails and slowly starting to irritate him.

But given the way things are now, a Jericho & Owens tandem shit-talking with the belts could really bring some interest to them, what with things cooling off with The New Day really fast. Jericho & Owens ending the longest reigning Tag Team Title run in WWE history seems fitting. Put them in angles with The New Day, Enzo & Cass, Cesaro & Sami Zayn (still a dream team for me) and American Alpha. You could realistically spread that out for a year. 2017 could be their year as a team. You can put them on ESPN or the talk show circuit as the tag team to see.

[Wishbone]

Oh my lord. Fine, say they murdered your mother.

I can't understand how you're making this comparison. You're using a situation that is scary no matter who is involved to make a point about who is more intimidating.

[Wishbone]

Here's Daniel Vidot, the Australian rugby player that WWE were looking at a while ago:

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/9b09d9117e13ddb3dc98b3d867930b5a?width=650

A spitting image for Kevin Owens, I think you'll agree.

Looks more like the unholy lovechild of the Rock and T.J. Perkins to me.

[Mr. Nerfect]

He's of Samoan descent, I believe.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I can't understand how you're making this comparison. You're using a situation that is scary no matter who is involved to make a point about who is more intimidating.

That's exactly the point though. People are saying that Kevin Owens is more intimidating than guys like the guys Ruien is comparing him to. The very point is that almost anyone with a brain would rather confront Kevin Owens than most other top guys.

[Bad News Gertner]

http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Tank-Abbott.jpg

This is what I see when I see Owens. Tank was my favourite UFC fighter growing up.

[Evil Vito]

That's pretty much what I see too. Having a gut doesn't proclude him from kicking ass.

[Evil Vito]

Feel like people obsessed with a wrestlers' physique should probably just stop watching. The business has changed. Guys aren't roided as fuck anymore because the Wellness Policy exists. The Wellness Policy exists because more than enough research has been done to show how damaging that shit actually is to your health, as evidenced by the laundry list of guys who have died of heart problems before they even become middle aged.

Triple H might be allowed to skirt the rules and roid up, but most guys aren't nowadays. What you see is what you get. If you want everybody to be big the business isn't for you anymore.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

http://e0.365dm.com/16/08/16-9/20/all-blacks-new-zealand-bledisloe-cup_3773289.jpg?20160827111914

Look at all those Kevin Owenseses...

Noidy I know my rugby. I've been watching international tests since I was about 7 years old, my dad is South African, and there are still some fat props in the game.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

http://i1.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article1996267.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/adam-jones-has-still-not-fully-recovered-from-a-knee-problem-50873897.jpg


Welsh international prop Adam Jones.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Remember Noid, I said PROPS I used to play rugby with. You showed a shirtless picture of a back, you dink lol

Ruien you have shown me several times that you yourself can be kind of obsessed with appearance.

Look, if they let the boys do steroids and monitor it correctly and make sure they're all safe, I'm down, but they can't so what do you expect? You need steroids to have some of the old physiques.

But remember, Harley Race is an all time great and he didn't exactly look like a chiseled Adonis. Same for many. Owens looks mean, he is just fat. And it helps him.

[#1-norm-fan]

http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Tank-Abbott.jpg

This is what I see when I see Owens. Tank was my favourite UFC fighter growing up.

Exactly. If you book him like a badass, it would not be at all unrealistic just because he's a fatty. It's not that he looks intimidating per se. It's that he looks like he COULD be intimidating. Book him as such and it would work. If Tank Abbott was a big fat jobber, you'd say "lol Look at this fat fuck." But since he was actually a badass, his look warrants a different reaction. Owens has everything it takes to pull off the same thing if booked right.

[XL]

Wasn't Tank booked to dance around with 3-Count?

[Ruien]

Remember Noid, I said PROPS I used to play rugby with. You showed a shirtless picture of a back, you dink lol

Ruien you have shown me several times that you yourself can be kind of obsessed with appearance.

Look, if they let the boys do steroids and monitor it correctly and make sure they're all safe, I'm down, but they can't so what do you expect? You need steroids to have some of the old physiques.

But remember, Harley Race is an all time great and he didn't exactly look like a chiseled Adonis. Same for many. Owens looks mean, he is just fat. And it helps him.

Why? Because I want different size wrestlers? As I said in 1 or 2 post back, Braun has the ability to become the next Big Show/Kane type of wrestler that has been lacking. WWE will probably put Reigns over him, then Rollins, and then have him start dancing soon enough but he has the ability. AJ is fine because you need your Y2J/Shawn type of wrestlers. The problem is, every wrestler looks like a Y2J/Shawn type of wrestler basically now.

I am focusing on the bigger wrestlers because there are none. If every main event wrestler looked like Goldberg then it would get old fast too. But when you have every wrestler built the same way and wrestling the same way then what is the difference from the mid card to the upper card? Jack shit. 50/50 booking also does not help.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Isn't that what's good about Owens though, that he's not built like HBK/Chris Jericho? I do agree it is boring to have everyone as 6'2" 215-220, but Owens breaks that mould.

I like the idea of big jacked up beasts being in there as well because it does add to the mystique of the business but those guys have to a) be able to work a bit and b) be available.

[XL]

I think the issue here is the idea that wrestling can be as big as it used to be, and that there are a number of reasons why it's not, and different people are pointing at different things to explain why it's not, or how it could get back to those heights.

We have Noid (I love you, man) who for years proposed the likes of Val Venis, Paul London, and Doug Basham as talents that WWE should push right to the top, now pushing for WWE to revert back to body guys, or that they need a Rock/Austin/Hogan type to drag them back into prominence because that's what worked when wrestling had mass appeal, and I don't buy it.

WWE had its heyday.

It's the same as a show like The X Files. At the height of its popularity it was a cultural phenomenon that premiered Season 5 at over 27.3m viewers. On its return to screens this year it garnered nearly 16.2m. Sure the TV environment has changed in the last 20 years, no doubt fewer people watch first-run TV than they used to (for example, this years biggest TV show and current cultural phenomenon The Walking Dead, premiered at 17.03m viewers - 10m fewer than X Files S5) and peoples' interests are dessiminated across other platforms, but simply X Files is not as "in" in 2016 as it was in 1996.

Same can be said for wrestling.

It's a niche product. It's always been a niche product, it just captured something in the mid/late 90s that garnered more public interest.

I don't think the lack of a body builder on top, or landing lucky on a guy like The Rock will propel them back to the pinacle of pop culture.

I don't think better writing will do this either, but it will increase my personal enjoyment of the product.

But beyond those issues, the single biggest issue is the volume of product.

I'm the type of person that "goes deep" with the TV I enjoy; ahead of the X Files mini series this year I watched the entire 9 seasons again, and read endlessly on the X files wiki site, I was the same with Lost, spending hours talking about theories on line. Current one is Westworld. But the minimum I am required to do is watch a 1 hour show once a week for maybe 24 weeks of the year.

Then there's wrestling. This is one of maybe 3 websites I go to daily, I watch Raw, SmackDown, NXT, PPVs, I watched the CWC, I watch the exclusive network stuff, I even still watch TNA, and Lucha Underground. I listen to the SCG podcast, and more often than not Jericho's show, Austin's, JR's, and Colt's. A lot of this is through force of habit (and clearly I live a very boring life) but the minimum I am required to do is watch 3 or 5 hours a week, 52 weeks a year. That's a lot. It's a hurdle the Attitude Era didn't have (they gave us 2 extra hours when they already had the audience).

Sure there will fans turned away by Balor/Owens being on top, and there will be a portion you can bring back with returns like Goldberg's, and WrestleMania will still get that casual bump, but otherwise wrestling's upper limit isn't as high as it was in 1999.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I think if something is well written and produces something which resonates it would garner at least some kind of main stream attention, not that it really matters.

[Danny Electric]

Reading through here /wrestling forum is confusing. You have guys who dont like Cena,Reigns, Styles,Lesnar, Owens. Zayn, Balor, Ambrose etc I could go on. So tell me who you would like the belts on, who do you want people to cheer etc for?

Do we really want to go back to Marc Henry headlining PPV's , I feel like sometimes people just like to bitch and moan for the sake of it and will always moan against who is being pushed and moan that someone else isn't being pushed. Then start moaning that that guy is being pushed.

I don't know, I think the product is pretty strong at the moment. I think it didn't help Owens that HHH helped him win the belt and then just disappeared off the screens with no explanation , then they gave more screen time to Jericho who is made to look the stronger out of the two. From what I've seen of Owens I enjoy him in the ring and on the mic.

[Ruien]

Well of course people will always have different opinions on who should be pushed. Because, you know, we are all different and have different taste. I don't think you can find one person on these forums that would take everyone you listed (Cena, Reigns, Styles, Lesnar, Zayn, Balor, and Ambrose) that dislikes everyone of the individuals in the main event.

[Tom Guycott]

Agreed with Stickman. I fully expect the main event wrestlers to be in better shape than me or be like Braun/Kane type of big. I should never feel I can take on the world champ. I should feel like the guy would destroy me.

The problem I see with this point of view is that it becomes an arms race of believability, for lack of a better term. Who's going to beat this monster? A bigger monster. And bigger. And bigger. And so it goes until you get to an area where you've cut the nuts off of finding any sort of actual, viable threat, because you need your "championship material" to be nearly 7 feet tall, 350lbs of "look the shit" muscles, and hope to the old gods and the new they can actually perform and talk.

There was too much stock into the "larger than life actual superhero" to where it turned into a pigeonhole.

Meanwhile, over the years, they have gotten farther away from actually making people give a shit about people UNLESS the company thinks you should give a shit. Reigns is a great example of what is now wasted opportunity. They were so dead set on crowning him "The New Cena", that they missed the opportunity to have a monster heel that could possibly hage been poised for that face turn by now. They were so focused on him heading to Mania a couple of years back, but didn't really make a case, build a lore, or otherwise give fans any reason why they should want to have this guy be the headliner they pay to see.

The industry has made a weird "full circle". Nearly everyone watching wrestling as a fan at this point *knows* it is fake, but are willing to suspend the disbelief to accept things that only make sense in the realm of pro wrestling. One of those things is going back to appreciation for people who can put on great matches with psychology and all that shit, and having "a good look" is icing on the cake.

AJ Styles is an amazimg talent, and it is archaic and stupid to assume he should job or be relegated to spot monkey cruiserweight status simply because he isn't built like Scott Steiner. I'm not the hugest Steen fan in the world, but what is the difference between him and an in-his-prime Vader? Vader was barrel-tummied and chicken legged, but he just had wrestling world acceptable ring attire and not dressed like someone who bought a ticket.

If the guy is billed and represented to be someone who can hurt you, and can sell the fact he can hurt you, it shouldn't matter if he looks like a roid freak or is just taller than most people.

I'd still buy Harley Race could kick my ass. I never saw such fear from the akwardly lanky Khali.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Also Ruien, Kevin Owens would beat the fuck out of you.

[Ruien]

We are really going to go back to the whole internet tough debate? It was shitty 1 or 2 pages back and it will be shitty now.

Really? Since you want to back into this debate. Owens has 2, maybe 3, inches on me. Is in no where near the shape I am in. Has he ever trained to actually defend/hurt/detain anyone? I have no idea if he has because I don't give two shits what happens outside of the WWE ring but I have years of karate/military/police training.

Do we need to keep playing the who is tougher than who shit though? It stupid as I said it was before.

[Ruien]

The problem I see with this point of view is that it becomes an arms race of believability, for lack of a better term. Who's going to beat this monster? A bigger monster. And bigger. And bigger. And so it goes until you get to an area where you've cut the nuts off of finding any sort of actual, viable threat, because you need your "championship material" to be nearly 7 feet tall, 350lbs of "look the shit" muscles, and hope to the old gods and the new they can actually perform and talk.

There was too much stock into the "larger than life actual superhero" to where it turned into a pigeonhole.

Meanwhile, over the years, they have gotten farther away from actually making people give a shit about people UNLESS the company thinks you should give a shit. Reigns is a great example of what is now wasted opportunity. They were so dead set on crowning him "The New Cena", that they missed the opportunity to have a monster heel that could possibly hage been poised for that face turn by now. They were so focused on him heading to Mania a couple of years back, but didn't really make a case, build a lore, or otherwise give fans any reason why they should want to have this guy be the headliner they pay to see.

The industry has made a weird "full circle". Nearly everyone watching wrestling as a fan at this point *knows* it is fake, but are willing to suspend the disbelief to accept things that only make sense in the realm of pro wrestling. One of those things is going back to appreciation for people who can put on great matches with psychology and all that shit, and having "a good look" is icing on the cake.

AJ Styles is an amazimg talent, and it is archaic and stupid to assume he should job or be relegated to spot monkey cruiserweight status simply because he isn't built like Scott Steiner. I'm not the hugest Steen fan in the world, but what is the difference between him and an in-his-prime Vader? Vader was barrel-tummied and chicken legged, but he just had wrestling world acceptable ring attire and not dressed like someone who bought a ticket.

If the guy is billed and represented to be someone who can hurt you, and can sell the fact he can hurt you, it shouldn't matter if he looks like a roid freak or is just taller than most people.

I'd still buy Harley Race could kick my ass. I never saw such fear from the akwardly lanky Khali.

You missed the whole point of AJ being the Y2J of this era. You missed the point of wanting a variety. Your missed the point of having different expectations.

Is Steen the person as Owens? I think so but want to make sure. I don't remember anything about Vader so no idea. Just remember he sat on people.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I'm not saying anything about internet tough, I think Kevin Owens would beat the fuck out of me too and I'm a pretty tough guy myself, not even saying you aren't tough.

If you have all that training and are a badass you could probably beat up 250 pound body builders as well. So your point is still moot.

[Wishbone]

That's exactly the point though. People are saying that Kevin Owens is more intimidating than guys like the guys Ruien is comparing him to. The very point is that almost anyone with a brain would rather confront Kevin Owens than most other top guys.

If someone killed your mother and was standing over her corpse as you walked in I don't think it would matter who was more "intimidating." That sort of scenario would make James Elsworth one of the scariest men on the planet (albeit temporarily.) I mean I don't know about you, but I'd have the exact same reaction to Kevin Owens killing my mom as I would Goldberg doing it. Either way I'm running for my gun. That's not the sort of scenario where you just "man up" and confront a guy. If you wanted to make a comparison like that you should have just used the bar fight scenario.

[Emperor Smeat]

Exactly. If you book him like a badass, it would not be at all unrealistic just because he's a fatty. It's not that he looks intimidating per se. It's that he looks like he COULD be intimidating. Book him as such and it would work. If Tank Abbott was a big fat jobber, you'd say "lol Look at this fat fuck." But since he was actually a badass, his look warrants a different reaction. Owens has everything it takes to pull off the same thing if booked right.

Probably also helped in Abbott's case he was a little legit crazy while in WCW to the point he actually threatened to kill and beat up people there. Even him pulling a knife on Goldberg wasn't supposed to be done the way it was on tv I think.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Wasn't Tank booked to dance around with 3-Count?

Something wrong with that punk? Tell it to Tank's face man!!

Dance along with three count! Make it last forever!

[Mr. Nerfect]

Exactly. If you book him like a badass, it would not be at all unrealistic just because he's a fatty. It's not that he looks intimidating per se. It's that he looks like he COULD be intimidating. Book him as such and it would work. If Tank Abbott was a big fat jobber, you'd say "lol Look at this fat fuck." But since he was actually a badass, his look warrants a different reaction. Owens has everything it takes to pull off the same thing if booked right.

Thank you. Owens doesn't remind me of Tank Abbott. Owens reminds me of a fat fuck playing pro-wrestler.

[Mr. Nerfect]

If someone killed your mother and was standing over her corpse as you walked in I don't think it would matter who was more "intimidating." That sort of scenario would make James Elsworth one of the scariest men on the planet (albeit temporarily.) I mean I don't know about you, but I'd have the exact same reaction to Kevin Owens killing my mom as I would Goldberg doing it. Either way I'm running for my gun. That's not the sort of scenario where you just "man up" and confront a guy. If you wanted to make a comparison like that you should have just used the bar fight scenario.

Fuck's sake, way to miss the point again. Ruien (not me, by the way) was just trying to find a situation where you'd be pissed off at a guy enough to feel the need to do something about it. The semantics of the situation do not fucking matter.

Lol, this thread is completely ridiculous.

[Mr. Nerfect]

That's pretty much what I see too. Having a gut doesn't proclude him from kicking ass.

Why can't people grasp the actual points being made? Being fat =/= looking like a mark. Being a bad-ass =/= being presented as a bad-ass. Having a good look =/= being chiseled.

[Stickman]

I find it funny how I brought up the look issue in this thread but I also buy KO as champ which so many of you seem to not. Keep him as the obnoxious bully type character and he is golden as champ. He legit looks and acts like a highschool bully, if they play that up by shit talking everyone yet still getting clean wins him being champ is great. Once they turn him face all his appeal will be gone because then he will just look like another indy guy,

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Ruien knows martial arts he could totally kick Kevin Owens' ass

[Wishbone]

Fuck's sake, way to miss the point again. Ruien (not me, by the way) was just trying to find a situation where you'd be pissed off at a guy enough to feel the need to do something about it. The semantics of the situation do not fucking matter.

Lol, this thread is completely ridiculous.

Then he really should have picked someone else to use those ridiculous scenarios on. I'm not the kind of person that just gets angry and starts fights regardless of the situation. Takes a lot to push me to that point. :p

[Wishbone]

Why can't people grasp the actual points being made? Being fat =/= looking like a mark. Being a bad-ass =/= being presented as a bad-ass. Having a good look =/= being chiseled.

I think you might be looking at this too subjectively, Noid. You're probably my favorite person on this forum, but your insistence that Owens doesn't have a good look when many in this thread think he does makes it seem like you're saying your opinion is more valid than theirs are.

Oh, and just an FYI I'm not really invested in it one way or the other. I mean I think Owens looks fine where he is, but honestly at this point I'd buy into anyone being a champ if they were pushed correctly. I just don't care about that sort of stuff so whether or not Owens is intimidating or whatever is moot in my opinion.

[Ruien]

Ruien knows martial arts he could totally kick Kevin Owens' ass

Damn right.

[Ruien]

Then he really should have picked someone else to use those ridiculous scenarios on. I'm not the kind of person that just gets angry and starts fights regardless of the situation. Takes a lot to push me to that point. :p

Pretty sure I said it in general and your just replied to it.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

this thread reminds me of Jim Cornette saying "Shawn Michaels couldn't whip cream with an out board motor" in a real fight

[Ruien]

Wish this thread would die so I may post me new thread.

[Wishbone]

Pretty sure I said it in general and your just replied to it.

First one, yes. Second one about the murdered mother was directed at me. :p

[Mr. Nerfect]

Post your new thread anyway, Ruien.

By the way, Wishbone, I do completely agree with you -- it is subjective -- I see something credible in AJ Styles, for example. But lately I've been trying to get into the psyche of the average person -- that elusive "casual fan." I think it's pretty nerdy to pretend Kevin Owens is legit. If you buy it, that's wonderful, but I think it's a lot of work to expect a person who doesn't surround themselves in folklore about how good Owens is in the ring to do.

[Wishbone]

Fair points, but I don't think it's as big of a stretch as you're making it out to be. I could be wrong, but based on personal experience with people I know who don't watch on a regular basis I've seen them have just about the same reaction to Owens as they do to any other pro-wrestler.

My biggest issue is that I just don't think that trying to bring in so-called "casuals" is even viable at this point. Personally I think wrestling is just too far gone to ever appeal to them again. My opinion is that WWE should focus on keeping their current audience and bringing back old wrestling fans who stopped watching due to the stale state of the product, but trying to get totally new fans is in my opinion a waste of time. I could be wrong since I'm basing a lot of that on anecdotal evidence from my own life, but that's my point of view anyway.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Wish this thread would die so I may post me new thread.

Post your new thread anyway, Ruien.

By the way, Wishbone, I do completely agree with you -- it is subjective -- I see something credible in AJ Styles, for example. But lately I've been trying to get into the psyche of the average person -- that elusive "casual fan." I think it's pretty nerdy to pretend Kevin Owens is legit. If you buy it, that's wonderful, but I think it's a lot of work to expect a person who doesn't surround themselves in folklore about how good Owens is in the ring to do.

I'm with Noid. What's stopping you, Ruien (other than yourself)?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Fair points, but I don't think it's as big of a stretch as you're making it out to be. I could be wrong, but based on personal experience with people I know who don't watch on a regular basis I've seen them have just about the same reaction to Owens as they do to any other pro-wrestler.

My biggest issue is that I just don't think that trying to bring in so-called "casuals" is even viable at this point. Personally I think wrestling is just too far gone to ever appeal to them again. My opinion is that WWE should focus on keeping their current audience and bringing back old wrestling fans who stopped watching due to the stale state of the product, but trying to get totally new fans is in my opinion a waste of time. I could be wrong since I'm basing a lot of that on anecdotal evidence from my own life, but that's my point of view anyway.

I think we're discussing semantics here, because I'm pretty much on the same page, but when I say "casuals" I am talking about that lapsed fan. The sort that Goldberg could have brought in if the rest of Survivor Series was as exciting as his return.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Kevin Owens needs to be chiseled to bring in fans that don't exist.

[Evil Vito]

Owens sheds weight and ends up absurdly ripped.

"Owens doesn't look unique anymore, now he looks like just another cookie cutter bodybuilder."

[XL]

Reading through here /wrestling forum is confusing. You have guys who dont like Cena,Reigns, Styles,Lesnar, Owens. Zayn, Balor, Ambrose etc I could go on. So tell me who you would like the belts on, who do you want people to cheer etc for?

Do we really want to go back to Marc Henry headlining PPV's , I feel like sometimes people just like to bitch and moan for the sake of it and will always moan against who is being pushed and moan that someone else isn't being pushed. Then start moaning that that guy is being pushed.

I don't know, I think the product is pretty strong at the moment. I think it didn't help Owens that HHH helped him win the belt and then just disappeared off the screens with no explanation , then they gave more screen time to Jericho who is made to look the stronger out of the two. From what I've seen of Owens I enjoy him in the ring and on the mic.
People will always have differing opinions, the idea that there is a concensus IWC mindest is patently wrong. It is a little difficult to sometimes marry individual thought processes together; there's a lot of "this is what I like so I reckon everybody else will love it", and a lot of presumption about that the casual fan wants versus what the hardcore fan wants.

Hate to pick on Noid again, but he's a key example of somebody you would have said was a typical IWC wrestling fan, who has now evolved to see "the bigger picture". He will have you believe that the product isn't as hot because of the vast majority of guys on the roster being very "everyman" rather than these "larger than life superheroes", yet will advocate that Shinsuke Nakamura is the next big star who should be brought up for a feud with HHH at Mania. I don't see it myself, and I can't see how the 2 streams of thought can exist in the same mind.

I also question how much the casual fan cares about things like psychology and selling, or whether these are things that longtime fans project on to other parts of the (potential) fan base. (Also don't quite get how you can call for the return of real-life superheroes yet bemoan a superhero-like comeback).

Don't get me wrong, psychology can add to a match, and makes the experience far more emersive if you know what you're looking for (look at the 2-out-of-3 Falls Tag Match at NXT Toronto, for example) but I think the importance to the casual fan is probably overstated.

Some elements of the IWC like to think of themselves about it all; they can see the strings and they love to let you know about it. "If you can't see what they were doing with the no-match between Lesnar and Goldberg then you don't understand the business" is a key theme that's been doing the rounds. JR on his podcast pretty much says this, he likens it to the NWA Champ dropping a fall in a tag match, stating that it's something that worked then so it should work today, completely ignoring the fact that what worked with limited/territory coverage has been used for the last 30 years and at this point it so transparant that it's laughable.

For me, you can dislike the Lesnar/Goldberg result because you can see the strings; another rehash at Mania. A match we've seen before, that will likely not benefit the longterm progress of the brand; Goldberg and Lesnar will likely be gone post-Mania anyway, and any heat/rub taken with them.

There's also rumours of an Orton/Taker match; another rehash, where nobody gains anything. Scratch that. Orton could beat Taker, to put himself in that bracket with Lesnar to set up a rematch between those two, but, well, another rematch.

I can pick apart 100 things that WWE do that don't make sense, but I don't think fixing those will be an instant fix to the ratings slump.

[XL]

But, yeah, some of the shit the audience does is truly awful. The "You still got it" chant for Taker recently was plain stupid, the "this is awesome" before Dillinger/Roode even touch was silly (although with context is more understandle).

Went to a house show in England last year, there were some douchbag "fans" trying to start a "Super Dragon" chant for the whole show. Don't need that type of asshole, thanks.

[The CyNick]

It's good to see Noid coming around on the mindset of WWE booking, which is to focus on larger than life characters.

The difference now is The Network. In years passed when business declined, the WWE would try to appeal to its base and push guys with strong workrate. With the idea being to keep things afloat until the next big mega star comes along. That was in an era where there was an arms race for TV ratings. It's a different environment today. The TV ratings have declined (largely in line with other shows on cable), but revenues have never been higher. Part of that is The Network, but it's also that there is more money on the table with TV in large part due to the successful move to PG programming.

At the same time house show attendance is essentially flat and merch is still selling (not at the rates of the peak, but selling nonetheless). What it shows is that WWE is less focused on the elusive "casual" audience and instead focused on being smarter at generating revenue from the hardcore fan.

It's left WWE trying to serve two masters. On the one hand, they still want to find that traditional New York territory babyface - Hogan, Rock, Austin, Cena type (hence the Reigns project, guys like Stroman, Corbin, etc) but they want to ensure the hardcore fans are looked after - (hence NXT on the weekend of big 4 PPVs, specials like the 205 deal, and pushing Internet darlings like Balor, Owens, Styles, etc.).

I have heard from too many friends who have a very passing interest in sports entertainment that they could never take a guy like Rey Mysterio seriously in a match against a guy like Big Show or Kane. I tend to agree with that line of thinking. I think for a guy to come off larger than life, he needs to have the size or the believeability in his work. For example, Kurt Angle is not massive, but if you know his background and watch him work, you have no trouble believing he could beat up anyone. I don't think guys like Styles (who I think is phenominal), Balor, or even Rollins to a degree give off a tough guy vibe. Not to say they can't be effective heels, or mid card babys, but as top dogs, I don't see it.

But that's where The Network comes in. As WWE is able to further monetize their Network subscriber base, there could be even more movement to appealing to the smarks, and less concern about that mega star that can be a crossover star.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Thank you. Owens doesn't remind me of Tank Abbott. Owens reminds me of a fat fuck playing pro-wrestler.

He's fit so he's not a fat fuck. He could probably beat you in a mile race.

[Stickman]

It's good to see Noid coming around on the mindset of WWE booking, which is to focus on larger than life characters.

The difference now is The Network. In years passed when business declined, the WWE would try to appeal to its base and push guys with strong workrate. With the idea being to keep things afloat until the next big mega star comes along. That was in an era where there was an arms race for TV ratings. It's a different environment today. The TV ratings have declined (largely in line with other shows on cable), but revenues have never been higher. Part of that is The Network, but it's also that there is more money on the table with TV in large part due to the successful move to PG programming.

At the same time house show attendance is essentially flat and merch is still selling (not at the rates of the peak, but selling nonetheless). What it shows is that WWE is less focused on the elusive "casual" audience and instead focused on being smarter at generating revenue from the hardcore fan.

It's left WWE trying to serve two masters. On the one hand, they still want to find that traditional New York territory babyface - Hogan, Rock, Austin, Cena type (hence the Reigns project, guys like Stroman, Corbin, etc) but they want to ensure the hardcore fans are looked after - (hence NXT on the weekend of big 4 PPVs, specials like the 205 deal, and pushing Internet darlings like Balor, Owens, Styles, etc.).

I have heard from too many friends who have a very passing interest in sports entertainment that they could never take a guy like Rey Mysterio seriously in a match against a guy like Big Show or Kane. I tend to agree with that line of thinking. I think for a guy to come off larger than life, he needs to have the size or the believeability in his work. For example, Kurt Angle is not massive, but if you know his background and watch him work, you have no trouble believing he could beat up anyone. I don't think guys like Styles (who I think is phenominal), Balor, or even Rollins to a degree give off a tough guy vibe. Not to say they can't be effective heels, or mid card babys, but as top dogs, I don't see it.

But that's where The Network comes in. As WWE is able to further monetize their Network subscriber base, there could be even more movement to appealing to the smarks, and less concern about that mega star that can be a crossover star.

Not once did I find Rey a credible champ. He had a match with HBGOATK and it even fell flat because of the size difference. Hbk makes everything look legit but fighting a midget didn't work for me.

[Mr. Nerfect]

He's fit so he's not a fat fuck. He could probably beat you in a mile race.

Holy fuck, you people really don't get it, do you? There's a difference between perception and reality. I don't give a fuck if Kevin Owens can climb mountains like Brian Blessed -- it's what people think. What does your average person think when they look at Kevin Owens?

Didn't they do some sort of testing group a year or so back and Owens tested "surprisingly low?" I wouldn't hold onto that one instance forever, but for fuck's sake some people have their head up in the clouds.

[Mr. Nerfect]

People will always have differing opinions, the idea that there is a concensus IWC mindest is patently wrong. It is a little difficult to sometimes marry individual thought processes together; there's a lot of "this is what I like so I reckon everybody else will love it", and a lot of presumption about that the casual fan wants versus what the hardcore fan wants.

Hate to pick on Noid again, but he's a key example of somebody you would have said was a typical IWC wrestling fan, who has now evolved to see "the bigger picture". He will have you believe that the product isn't as hot because of the vast majority of guys on the roster being very "everyman" rather than these "larger than life superheroes", yet will advocate that Shinsuke Nakamura is the next big star who should be brought up for a feud with HHH at Mania. I don't see it myself, and I can't see how the 2 streams of thought can exist in the same mind.

I also question how much the casual fan cares about things like psychology and selling, or whether these are things that longtime fans project on to other parts of the (potential) fan base. (Also don't quite get how you can call for the return of real-life superheroes yet bemoan a superhero-like comeback).

Don't get me wrong, psychology can add to a match, and makes the experience far more emersive if you know what you're looking for (look at the 2-out-of-3 Falls Tag Match at NXT Toronto, for example) but I think the importance to the casual fan is probably overstated.

Some elements of the IWC like to think of themselves about it all; they can see the strings and they love to let you know about it. "If you can't see what they were doing with the no-match between Lesnar and Goldberg then you don't understand the business" is a key theme that's been doing the rounds. JR on his podcast pretty much says this, he likens it to the NWA Champ dropping a fall in a tag match, stating that it's something that worked then so it should work today, completely ignoring the fact that what worked with limited/territory coverage has been used for the last 30 years and at this point it so transparant that it's laughable.

For me, you can dislike the Lesnar/Goldberg result because you can see the strings; another rehash at Mania. A match we've seen before, that will likely not benefit the longterm progress of the brand; Goldberg and Lesnar will likely be gone post-Mania anyway, and any heat/rub taken with them.

There's also rumours of an Orton/Taker match; another rehash, where nobody gains anything. Scratch that. Orton could beat Taker, to put himself in that bracket with Lesnar to set up a rematch between those two, but, well, another rematch.

I can pick apart 100 things that WWE do that don't make sense, but I don't think fixing those will be an instant fix to the ratings slump.

I love you, XL. :kiss:

That being said, while we disagree on the specifics, I think we agree on the larger philosophical point.

I confess all the time to being a typical internet mark. I used to think Paul London was the best wrestler in the world, etc. A few things have started clicking in my mind. Hearing lots of smart people talk about the psychology behind booking and the industry in general, as well as just being a fan for years has turned me into a different sort of mark. I'm not longer a guy that thinks what I like is going to be what others like -- it's now that I look for things that others might like and try to determine why. It's like a mental maths puzzle, and I find that infinitely more stimulating than the current product.

When it comes to Nakamura, I think you've got one of the few guys in wrestling with star-level charisma. I'm realizing now that the guy isn't bulletproof, and I actually worry about his WWE run now. The more they try to get him to work the WWE style, the more I think "Well, he's not special anymore." I would present Nakamura as a big deal though. Have him show up on PPV and Kinshasa someone. Rinse, wash, repeat.

We differ on the psychology point, because I think it is UNDERSTATED how much psychology matters. I don't think people "look" for it, but I think when it's not there they lose interest. It's an intuition thing. And that's a large part of why ratings are so low at the moment. None of the guys working today know how to work like a Shawn Michaels, Mick Foley or Steve Austin. Or if they do, they certainly don't put it into practice.

I'm completely convinced on the Goldberg thing, by the way. I heard someone criticizing it and talking about Goldberg's cardio and how he's too old to have longer matches. Lol, why would you want Goldberg to have longer matches? It's insane to me. I also think Brock losing makes him more interesting; not less. Brock has actually lost a lot -- even since he broke the streak. He lost to Cena at Night of Champions, he lost to Seth Rollins at WrestleMania, he lost to The Undertaker at SummerSlam, and he lost in the Royal Rumble. His WrestleMania record since returning is 2-2-1. Brock is a complete professional wrestler in that he knows how to not only sell winning, but sell losing in a way that, as people say, "wins and losses don't matter." They do matter, but you can make losing matter too. Brock has ALWAYS been good at that. Goldberg...not so much.

Truth be told, I'd put Goldberg over Brock at WrestleMania again. Everyone is expecting the Brock gets his win back over Goldberg "it was nice while it lasted" shtick. Nah, go with Goldberg being Brock's kryptonite.

I'm completely with you on the Undertaker/Orton thing. That being said, because I don't really give a fuck anymore, I don't have a problem with it. Ideally, you would put someone over Taker that you'd then go and put over Brock, but whatever -- if Taker wants to do the Orton stuff, let him do the Orton stuff. At this point, as bland as I often find Randy, he's one of the closest things you have to a star, so you might as well give him some rarefied air, even if it's just so he can keep RKOing people and people think it's just that little bit more special. I have a feeling we're heading towards Undertaker vs. Cena and Orton & Bray vs. American Alpha at WrestleMania now though. So there's that.

[Stickman]

I would like to point out that since his first night when he beat Cena, Owens has always gotten a reaction from the crowd. That can't be said for many of the guys that the IWC loves.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Dean Ambrose was always getting good reactions for a while. Well, until they killed him. Owens' time will come.

[Stickman]

Dean Amrose looks less threatening than Owens, but it's ok because he is so crazy he is a lunatic apparently.

[Wishbone]

Holy fuck, you people really don't get it, do you? There's a difference between perception and reality. I don't give a fuck if Kevin Owens can climb mountains like Brian Blessed -- it's what people think. What does your average person think when they look at Kevin Owens?

Didn't they do some sort of testing group a year or so back and Owens tested "surprisingly low?" I wouldn't hold onto that one instance forever, but for fuck's sake some people have their head up in the clouds.

Thing is, Noid, none of us can answer that question because we're not "average people." Even you are just speculating really (albeit educated speculation.) Honestly everyone is different even when talking about the "average." I'd argue that many people are going to have wildly different reactions to anyone you put in front of them. It all really boils down to demographics and what subcultures the person in question subscribes to. That's why I think it's stupid to aim for a casual audience because there are just so many variables in today's society. Even so-called "mainstream" stuff like Kanye West and the Kardashians are extremely divisive nowadays. Honestly I think the best thing for wrestling is to own up to what they are and then provide a lot of variety in that. Have your Owenses, Balors, etc as top guys while still having your Goldbergs and your Reignses mixed in too. Just my two cents anyway.

[Juan]

Dean Ambrose was always getting good reactions for a while. Well, until they killed him. Owens' time will come.

Lol I've always loved your sunny optimism

[Evil Vito]

Noid's signature is awfully ironic nowadays.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah, I should probably get onto changing that now that I'm a realist. :-\

[Big Vic]

Or allow CyNick to join the stable.

[Destor]

Holy fuck, you people really don't get it, do you? There's a difference between perception and reality. I don't give a fuck if Kevin Owens can climb mountains like Brian Blessed -- it's what people think. What does your average person think when they look at Kevin Owens?
Yeah, wrestling is a work. Crazy I know :lol:

[Mr. Nerfect]

My older brother tells me that Dean Ambrose can't punch, but I won't believe it, dammit! :'(

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Sabu should have beat him. ^_o