Did Vince help or hurt the wrestling industry?

[Fignuts]

By popular demand

[Destor]

I guess I'll start.

Before Vince assumed control of the industry there wrestlers from one end of the country to the other making a living off it. Full time wrestlers buying homes and supporting families. Now either you work for him or you live off a couple hundred a night if you are exceptional/work the gimmick stand. The ones who do well do better than the ones of yesteryear but the gap between success and starvation is vast and there is no "middle class."

There is no industry now. There is one promotion.

Vince killing kayfabein federal court is a topic worth discussing as well.

[Bad News Gertner]

If Vince didn't do it, somebody else would. The Territories were terribly run by the mid 80's. The decisions made by Fritz, Verne etc were laughable.

[Sepholio]

Let's not forget the reality of how damaging it's been to the industry as a whole since he bought wcw. I'm aware they had financial issues and someone was going to buy them but he killed his competition and then kinda pooped all over their legacy and their fans with the awful invasion. Ratings have been going down ever since.

[Bad News Gertner]

WCW had no T.V. It was pretty much worthless to anyone other than Vince.

[Destor]

If Vince didn't do it, somebody else would. The Territories were terribly run by the mid 80's. The decisions made by Fritz, Verne etc were laughable.

Moot argument. The question is did it help or hurt the industry not if it was or was not inevitable.

A territory could have died and been revived by someone else. As is there is nothing beyond 100 or so jobs in the business now.

[BigCrippyZ]

Moot argument. The question is did it help or hurt the industry not if it was or was not inevitable.

Glad I'm not the only one that noticed this. :yes:

[RP]

Considering Pro Wrestling pretty much reached it's ceiling 15 years ago. I think he obviously helped. Keeping the product relevant since then has been outstanding.

[The CyNick]

He turned it from regional garbage to a global phenomenon

[Emperor Smeat]

A mix of both overall. For every great thing he did, something else took a bit hit either in the short or long term.

WWF's rise and Hulkamania becoming huge in the mainstream came at the cost of the old territory system. WWF's victory over WCW came at the cost of the gradual mainstream decline in the industry. Even stuff like NXT is a mixed bag since he gave Triple H all the resources needed for it to be successful but at the same time is the biggest obstacle when it comes to transitioning those gains to the next level on the main roster.

[The CyNick]

A mix of both overall. For every great thing he did, something else took a bit hit either in the short or long term.

WWF's rise and Hulkamania becoming huge in the mainstream came at the cost of the old territory system. WWF's victory over WCW came at the cost of the gradual mainstream decline in the industry. Even stuff like NXT is a mixed bag since he gave Triple H all the resources needed for it to be successful but at the same time is the biggest obstacle when it comes to transitioning those gains to the next level on the main roster.

The non WWE territories went out of business because they were terrible and were minor league. Any other territory could have done what Vince did. The difference was he was way better at it.

The business was declining off its ratings peak before WCW went out of business. It's never been more successful from a business standpoint than it is now. That's thanks to Vince.

Anyone who draws a pay in wrestling in North America is doing so because of Vince.

[Bad News Gertner]

Vince fixed a broken system

[BigCrippyZ]

Only to become the broken system with enough money for the "broken system" that he's become/created, not to matter.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Yeah but a broken system without ties to organized crime. So, it's better. So, hooray?

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[Destor]

Everyone is citing the WWEs success and calling it the industry. There is no industry now, there is only one promotion.

[Emperor Smeat]

The business was declining off its ratings peak before WCW went out of business. It's never been more successful from a business standpoint than it is now. That's thanks to Vince.

Yeah business is soo great right now for the WWE that they suddenly need around $200 million to cover their current debts based on recent financial reports.

Network itself still hasn't come close to doing the financial things the WWE was expecting by now and even has declined a bit in terms of overall performance. Even so, it was only ever meant to replace their tv and ppv revenues which it still hasn't managed to get close to doing so.

[BigCrippyZ]

Yeah business is soo great right now for the WWE that they suddenly need around $200 million to cover their current debts based on recent financial reports.

Network itself still hasn't come close to doing the financial things the WWE was expecting by now and even has declined a bit in terms of overall performance. Even so, it was only ever meant to replace their tv and ppv revenues which it still hasn't managed to get close to doing so.

Shhh... don't cite facts as evidence. Cynick, et al., will tell you "you don't know anything / what you're talking about" and that "you're just wrong, everything's great". Except for when things were better, like April 18, 2008, April 23, 2010, February 2, 2001, January 15, 2001 - January 30, 2001, June, 25, 2000 - September 23, 2000, October 24, 1999 - November, 23, 1999.

[Wishbone]

Vince did to wrestling what big business has done to the U.S. as a whole. He made the top guys richer and gave them the ability to become bigger stars than they ever could have before. However, he also killed the industry as a whole and made it impossible for the vast majority of wrestlers to make a living at it.

[Juan]

Yeah business is soo great right now for the WWE that they suddenly need around $200 million to cover their current debts based on recent financial reports.

Network itself still hasn't come close to doing the financial things the WWE was expecting by now and even has declined a bit in terms of overall performance. Even so, it was only ever meant to replace their tv and ppv revenues which it still hasn't managed to get close to doing so.

Don't take the Cynick bait, he's just gonna say you're believing everything Meltzer says or something like that

[#1-norm-fan]

Don't take the Cynick bait

Seriously, guys...

[#1-norm-fan]

Del Rio joining Sheamus, Barrett, and Rusev would be a good group.

Not Euro enough. Then it becomes an anti American group.

Why does it not being completely European make it anti-American?

Well what do they have in common then?

Ask yourself if this is a guy you wanna try to have a discussion with.

[road doggy dogg]

So what I'm reading is that Vince helped "WWE / the promotion" at the expense of "the industry".

Without WWE being the big dog in the yard, the "industry" as a whole would have floundered long ago. WWE kept pro wrestling relevant. Could you imagine in today's cultural landscape (if WWE ceased to exist) how well a glorified carnival act would go over with millennials? I don't think Dusty Rhodes could compete with Steph Curry on a bang-for-bucks ratio

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Meltzer Sheep,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Destor]

So what I'm reading is that Vince helped "WWE / the promotion" at the expense of "the industry".

Without WWE being the big dog in the yard, the "industry" as a whole would have floundered long ago. WWE kept pro wrestling relevant. Could you imagine in today's cultural landscape (if WWE ceased to exist) how well a glorified carnival act would go over with millennials? I don't think Dusty Rhodes could compete with Steph Curry on a bang-for-bucks ratio

Pure speculation. And one that works off the assumption that wrestling cant adapt with the times without vince, as if the product hadnt adapted and changed before he even got into the industry. It would have been different but there is no evidence to suggest it wouldn't have.

No one has yet to name an example of how the industry is better post vince outside of his company.

[road doggy dogg]

Well, it will always be speculative when talking in hypotheticals. Without Vince/WWE, would Turner have bought WCW to compete? Would they ever have moved on past the "territory" style of promotions?

Without WWE providing a constant mainstream presence, interest in the industry as a whole would not have been near where it is. I can't imagine there would be any worldwide interest in American football, for example, without an NFL.

[Destor]

We arent talking hypotheticals here. We have a reality prior to vince and a reality post vince. In what way is the industry better off outside of the WWF?

[road doggy dogg]

I can only speak for myself in saying that I would literally have no interest in pro wrestling without Vince's involvement. Hell I probably wouldn't even know it existed.

[Destor]

To me this is simple. You take an industry that had, i dunno lets go conservative here, 1000 jobs across the country and replace it with 100 jobs you have not improved industry. If you had 15 successful businesses and replaced it with 1.

Walmart was not good for the supermarket industry. It was good for walmart.

And thats not me saying walmart was a failure theres just a diference between the two things.

[Lock Jaw]

WWE has created 1000s of jobs, though.

Granted, those aren't all wrestling jobs. It takes a lot of people to run a company of that size, though. Whereas a territory could be run/managed by a handful of people, WWE is a powerhouse corporate conglomerate with tons of jobs created.

A lot more people are probably making $ and supporting their families due to the state of the industry today. Just maybe less rasslers.

[#1-norm-fan]

To me this is simple. You take an industry that had, i dunno lets go conservative here, 1000 jobs across the country and replace it with 100 jobs you have not improved industry. If you had 15 successful businesses and replaced it with 1.

Walmart was not good for the supermarket industry. It was good for walmart.

And thats not me saying walmart was a failure theres just a diference between the two things.

Not only that, but I think what Vince has done since buying WCW has definitely hurt the business. WWE's popularity has been on a steady decline and with it, since it's synonymous with wrestling, has gone the business itself. WCW thrived because Vince made wrestling a mainstream juggernaut and WCW took advantage of that. Even if TNA were actually producing a strong product over the past 15 years though they wouldn't stand much of a chance because the industry is not the draw it was. And that's also because of Vince.

So I'm kind of in between. I think he helped it and then hurt it.

[Destor]

Theres no maybe to the rasslers. The jobs it "created" were entertainment jobs. Jobs that people from television filled. So i guess he had a positive impact on the tv industry?

[Destor]

Furthermore think of the workers he employs. What is their future like post wwe? Most die in trailer parks and its not because of poor money management. The average worker bring in 55k before travel for...5 years? And after that they have no industry to go to.

[BigCrippyZ]

Not only that, but I think what Vince has done since buying WCW has definitely hurt the business. WWE's popularity has been on a steady decline and with it, since it's synonymous with wrestling, has gone the business itself. WCW thrived because Vince made wrestling a mainstream juggernaut and WCW took advantage of that. Even if TNA were actually producing a strong product over the past 15 years though they wouldn't stand much of a chance because the industry is not the draw it was. And that's also because of Vince.

So I'm kind of in between. I think he helped it and then hurt it.

:yes:

Agreed. Seems like you almost always say exactly what I'm thinking.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

Ryan Clark confirms Crippy Z and Fan are one in the same

[#1-norm-fan]

There better not be a link with hot pics coming.

[road doggy dogg]

Theres no maybe to the rasslers. The jobs it "created" were entertainment jobs. Jobs that people from television filled. So i guess he had a positive impact on the tv industry?

How is this a bad thing, exactly? Should wrestling not be televised? Is that your gripe?

[road doggy dogg]

Furthermore think of the workers he employs. What is their future like post wwe? Most die in trailer parks and its not because of poor money management. The average worker bring in 55k before travel for...5 years? And after that they have no industry to go to.

How glamorous were pre-WWE wrestlers' post-wrestling lives? (not snarky, legit question because I know 0 about anything related to the lifestyle of wrestlers)

[Destor]

How is this a bad thing, exactly? Should wrestling not be televised? Is that your gripe?No? If you want to credit Vince for creating jobs for sales reps, marketers, TV crews, etc thats all valid. Those are positions that benifit from the industry but arent OF the industry. If the WWF up and died those people would find work elsewhere inside their industry. But if you want to credit him as a job creater for those that would be fair. The net jobs gained v jobs lost still wouldnt favor the WWF but whatever.

How glamorous were pre-WWE wrestlers' post-wrestling lives? (not snarky, legit question because I know 0 about anything related to the lifestyle of wrestlers)They could support families off of them. Buying homes and cars. Middle class. Full time wrestler was a viable profesion. Wahoo McDaniel quit the NFL because wrestling paid better.


Job guys would make a killing but they had to travel a lot more.


Glamor? I dont think the Middle Class could be described as that.

[Stickman]

I think wrestling would have died 1-2 decades ago if it wasn't for Vince. If you think, it is probably the silliest thing on TV and without Vince making it relevant I don't think it would have continued anywhere near what it is. Maybe it would still be a travelling carny show at best.

[Destor]

I think wrestling would have died 1-2 decades ago if it wasn't for Vince. If you think, it is probably the silliest thing on TV and without Vince making it relevant I don't think it would have continued anywhere near what it is. Maybe it would still be a travelling carny show at best.
Rediculous. He didnt invent the business. It exists globally with out him. This is propagandized mindset. Something about wrestling works. And has worked for over a century. This notion that only Vince can run a succesful company is just silly.

[Stickman]

I am saying it would probably still be a carny side show. It woukd still exist but I don't think it would be anywhere near what it is. Honestly don't know if it eould be on tv in North America. I have tried to watch TNA and ROH but it is so painfully bad that it is just a terrible tv show. I think television watching habits have change so much that it probably would have to be a netflix series to have any tv time.

[Destor]

I am saying it would probably still be a carny side show. It woukd still exist but I don't think it would be anywhere near what it is. Honestly don't know if it eould be on tv in North America. I have tried to watch TNA and ROH but it is so painfully bad that it is just a terrible tv show. I think television watching habits have change so much that it probably would have to be a netflix series to have any tv time.
I agree that the existing non WWF product is bad but thats is related to the monopolization as much as anything.


But the notion that it couldnt be national ignores that other companies have been national for 40 years all across the planet. The heights it reached in Japan are as monsterous and it has reached in the states. Someone else could have come along and did what Vince did and there is really no reason to think otherwise. The only difference is that someone made not have become the only show in town. We will never know.

[Stickman]

I agree that the existing non WWF product is bad but thats is related to the monopolization as much as anything.


But the notion that it couldnt be national ignores that other companies have been national for 40 years all across the planet. The heights it reached in Japan are as monsterous and it has reached in the states. Someone else could have come along and did what Vince did and there is really no reason to think otherwise. The only difference is that someone made not have become the only show in town. We will never know.

I get what you are saying, but Vince came around at the right time then WCW came at the right time. Vince almost went out of business, had that happen I think wcw woukd have eventually gone out of business too. The 90s were an interesting time with the explosion of tv and internet but I do think without vinces balls and genius wrestling could have disappeared altogether on tv due to the changing face of tv. Think about the world today minus wreslting, does anybody think if wrestling comes to tv now anybody watches? I think Vince is why wrestling is still on tv.

I can't speak for wrestling overseas or in Mexico because I live in North America, but I don't think American Wrestling works now had it not been for VKM.

[Destor]

I get what you are saying, but Vince came around at the right time then WCW came at the right time. Vince almost went out of business, had that happen I think wcw woukd have eventually gone out of business too. The 90s were an interesting time with the explosion of tv and internet but I do think without vinces balls and genius wrestling could have disappeared altogether on tv due to the changing face of tv. Think about the world today minus wreslting, does anybody think if wrestling comes to tv now anybody watches? I think Vince is why wrestling is still on tv.

I can't speak for wrestling overseas or in Mexico because I live in North America, but I don't think American Wrestling works now had it not been for VKM.
Debatable, but moot. Can you state in one way the industry is better outside of the WWF today than it was before him?

[Stickman]

Debatable, but moot. Can you state in one way the industry is better outside of the WWF today than it was before him?

I wasn't around before him nor am I a wrestling historian so I can't truly answer that question. But I would guess you have more real athletes as wrestlers now than before when any big muscular guy or fat ass could compete. I hate with a passion watching Roh and Tna but it is so much better in ring than up to the early to mid 80s.

[Destor]

I wasn't around before him nor am I a wrestling historian so I can't truly answer that question. But I would guess you have more real athletes as wrestlers now than before when any big muscular guy or fat ass could compete. I hate with a passion watching Roh and Tna but it is so much better in ring than up to the early to mid 80s.
We're about to get super side tracked here but I keep thinking if the Fed hires anymore fat guys they need to put them all in a stable

[Bad News Gertner]

It's better because all the other promoters were either behind the times (Verne Gagne) or inept (Verne Gagne, Fritz Von Erich) or didn't have the financial means to sustain the long haul (Bill Watts). Vince actually organized things and I shudder to think what would have happened had Vince not did what he did. The AWA, WCCW, FCW, Central States etc would have collapsed regardless. JCP was the only competition and the way they book didn't have mass appeal. It's better because you have something rather than nothing.

[Destor]

But that's all speculative. You dont know what would have come down the pike. Either new promoters or new ideas. What you know is there was a successful industry when vince came on the scene in 1980 there was an industry. In 2016 there isnt. Those are real facts. Vince took control not because he was the only guy with a good show but because he was smarter. He knew more about business and marketing. The territories died out BECAUSE of how Vince shifted the market. They were unequipped to respond...but if he had never existed? No reasons to think they wouldnt have stayed the course.

[Ruien]

If it wasn't for Vince then wrestling would never have become as huge as it was or is now.

[Destor]

If it wasn't for Vince then wrestling would never have become as huge as it was or is now.
Wrestling isnt huge. The WWE is.

[The CyNick]

Yeah business is soo great right now for the WWE that they suddenly need around $200 million to cover their current debts based on recent financial reports.

Network itself still hasn't come close to doing the financial things the WWE was expecting by now and even has declined a bit in terms of overall performance. Even so, it was only ever meant to replace their tv and ppv revenues which it still hasn't managed to get close to doing so.

Never meant to replace TV revenue. The issue was PPV was a very volatile business, they figured out something that flattened monthly revenues and wound up increasing revenue compared to the PPV model years. Costs are higher now, but that's to be expected during the early stages of a new venture. They have tons of opportunities to further maximize revenues with tiered pricing and as they conquest overseas markets. Long run they made the right call and it's paying off in spades.

[The CyNick]

Ask yourself if this is a guy you wanna try to have a discussion with.

Have you ever contributed ANYTHING to a discussion?

BTW, how are the Walking Dead ratings this season? Still increasing like you said?

[The CyNick]

To me this is simple. You take an industry that had, i dunno lets go conservative here, 1000 jobs across the country and replace it with 100 jobs you have not improved industry. If you had 15 successful businesses and replaced it with 1.

Walmart was not good for the supermarket industry. It was good for walmart.

And thats not me saying walmart was a failure theres just a diference between the two things.

But that's not on Vince or the crappy supermarkets.

The crappy wrestling promotions were crap and they went out of business. Vince didn't force them to not be able to sell tickets to their events. Vince didn't force them to be failures on PPV. Vince didn't force them to draw terrible TV numbers.

The proper statement would be thank God for Vince, because without him, those crappy wrestling promotions would have went out of business and there would be no industry today.

[The CyNick]

Not only that, but I think what Vince has done since buying WCW has definitely hurt the business. WWE's popularity has been on a steady decline and with it, since it's synonymous with wrestling, has gone the business itself. WCW thrived because Vince made wrestling a mainstream juggernaut and WCW took advantage of that. Even if TNA were actually producing a strong product over the past 15 years though they wouldn't stand much of a chance because the industry is not the draw it was. And that's also because of Vince.

So I'm kind of in between. I think he helped it and then hurt it.

There's no barrier to entry in this industry. Literally anyone with deep enough pockets could get TV time, buy some rings, rent arenas, contact talent and start a company. Anyone who tries has failed or had minimal success. Goes to show that Vince has figured out something that the others haven't.

It's funny reading statements about TNA lack of growth is somehow the wrongdoing of Vince. He ran his business and watched every competitor fail. Their lack of success should not be blamed on him.

[The CyNick]

I think wrestling would have died 1-2 decades ago if it wasn't for Vince. If you think, it is probably the silliest thing on TV and without Vince making it relevant I don't think it would have continued anywhere near what it is. Maybe it would still be a travelling carny show at best.

Agreed

[The CyNick]

I am saying it would probably still be a carny side show. It woukd still exist but I don't think it would be anywhere near what it is. Honestly don't know if it eould be on tv in North America. I have tried to watch TNA and ROH but it is so painfully bad that it is just a terrible tv show. I think television watching habits have change so much that it probably would have to be a netflix series to have any tv time.

What do you know, a fellow Canadian bringing more logic to the table.

[The CyNick]

But that's all speculative. You dont know what would have come down the pike. Either new promoters or new ideas. What you know is there was a successful industry when vince came on the scene in 1980 there was an industry. In 2016 there isnt. Those are real facts. Vince took control not because he was the only guy with a good show but because he was smarter. He knew more about business and marketing. The territories died out BECAUSE of how Vince shifted the market. They were unequipped to respond...but if he had never existed? No reasons to think they wouldnt have stayed the course.

Just flat out wrong.

Vince made some moves, but others could have followed suit. WCW survived for a long time. There's no reason to think other promoters could have been successful as well. The problem was they were no good. Line up side by side a WWE show say in 1985 and compare it to any other promotion at the time. The non WWE products looked like they were filmed in a smokey high school gymnasium. Likely because a lot of the times, that's where they were filmed.

Even today, why can't TNA match what WWE does? Look at the rest of entertainment, lots of shows come and go. They gain a following, it dips off, and then something new takes over. TNA was on the same cable channel WWE and had the same opportunities but couldn't capitalize. Just like AWA and other groups could have taken off in the 80s. They didn't because they suck (ed).

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

New Japan and Japanese wrestling would have gotten more popular quicker in America had Vince never shown up.

[#1-norm-fan]

Guys... Guys...

I look at something like TWD, which has amazing ratings, but have been in steady decline for some time now.

:lol: at using TWD again to claim the WWE is better. You did this several times before and each time forgetting how massive TWD viewer base is compared to WWE's and their drops following the traditional pattern for tv show seasons. Meanwhile WWE has been dropping yearly ever since the end of the Attitude Era with the 3 Hour Era producing larger yearly drops. WWE's pretty much down to their core audience since Cena wasn't able to bring in the next gen of long term fans.

The Walking Dead average ratings per episode (in millions)...

Season 1: 5.24
Season 2: 6.90
Season 3: 10.40
Season 4: 13.30
Season 5: 14.40
Season 6: 13.15
Season 7: TBD

The Walking Dead season premiere ratings...
Season 1: 5.35
Season 2: 7.26
Season 3: 10.87
Season 4: 16.11
Season 5: 17.30
Season 6: 14.63
Season 7: 17.03

Man. Look at that steady decline.

Again, for everyone who still wishes to take The CyNick seriously... just... come on...

Don't do it, guys...

[Stickman]

New Japan and Japanese wrestling would have gotten more popular quicker in America had Vince never shown up.

No, just no.

A) Japanese wrestling isn't really entertaining,
B) North Americans hardly watch anything not North American.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

No, just no.

A) Japanese wrestling isn't really entertaining,
B) North Americans hardly watch anything not North American.

The huge shelves of Magna at my Local Barnes and Noble beg to differ.

When American animation turned somewhat kiddie many people turned to Japan. Very similar situation could have taken place in wrestling.

[Destor]

Cynick must be trolling.

[Destor]

Here's the tl;dr

Vince is god and we are lucky to have had him

Lol. Ok.

[#1-norm-fan]

Cynick must be trolling.

I didn't read his specific responses this time but... come on. We can safely assume by now...

[Destor]

Right right. Touché

[Bad News Gertner]

But that's all speculative. You dont know what would have come down the pike. Either new promoters or new ideas. What you know is there was a successful industry when vince came on the scene in 1980 there was an industry. In 2016 there isnt. Those are real facts. Vince took control not because he was the only guy with a good show but because he was smarter. He knew more about business and marketing. The territories died out BECAUSE of how Vince shifted the market. They were unequipped to respond...but if he had never existed? No reasons to think they wouldnt have stayed the course.

They would have died regardless. The promoters were completely inept.

[Bad News Gertner]

New Japan and Japanese wrestling would have gotten more popular quicker in America had Vince never shown up.

Do you have any idea how many times Vince brought over Inoki, Sakaguchi, Yatsu and Choshu? They got over like a fart in church.

[Fignuts]

New Japan and Japanese wrestling would have gotten more popular quicker in America had Vince never shown up.

The huge shelves of Magna at my Local Barnes and Noble beg to differ.

When American animation turned somewhat kiddie many people turned to Japan. Very similar situation could have taken place in wrestling.

I fucking love Japanese wrestling, but what the fuck are you talking about here? What are you basing this on? Manga and Anime? What does that have to do with anything? They are completely different forms of entertainment.

Maybe if candy sales in vending machines starts falling, they'll start selling panties, because Naruto was a big hit over here.

[KIRA]

The huge shelves of Magna at my Local Barnes and Noble beg to differ.

When American animation turned somewhat kiddie many people turned to Japan. Very similar situation could have taken place in wrestling.

STD manga, Anime,Wrestling WWWWWAAAAY different in terms of marketing,target audience, and a whole truckload of other stuff.

[BigCrippyZ]

:lol: @ Cynick's logical reasoning skills. It would be sad if he wasn't such a douche.

[The CyNick]

Guys... Guys...



Don't do it, guys...

Have you checked TWDs ratings season to date. Down again. They had a big first night because they had a massive teaser. But the falloff since then has been quite large.

But as usual you don't like facts that fly in the face of your narrative. You are probably a low energy type as well.

[The CyNick]

:lol: @ Cynick's logical reasoning skills. It would be sad if he wasn't such a douche.

I would take a wager that I'm one of the nicest people you would ever meet. If you ever get out of your mom's basement that is. Cheers mate.

[The CyNick]

Here's the tl;dr

Vince is god and we are lucky to have had him

Lol. Ok.

Not God, but if they built a Mount Rushmore for the industry, he would be the lone person on the mountain.

[BigCrippyZ]

I would take a wager that I'm one of the nicest people you would ever meet. If you ever get out of your mom's basement that is. Cheers mate.

That's great, but I'm not concerned with how nice you are.

I don't live with my parents and I haven't lived with them in over 15 years, nor do they have a basement.

For supposedly one of the nicest people I would ever meet, that's not exactly the "nicest" presumption you're alleging about me by the way.

[Destor]

Dont feed the troll.

[#1-norm-fan]

He's trying hard. Throwing out softballs that make it difficult to call him out on. Resist the temptation, guys...

Del Rio joining Sheamus, Barrett, and Rusev would be a good group.

Not Euro enough. Then it becomes an anti American group.

Why does it not being completely European make it anti-American?

Well what do they have in common then?

Resist the temptation...

[#1-norm-fan]

Wait. Already did that one in this thread.

what about a role where you are my young student u have a huge crush on me infatuated by me your so in love u want to have my baby and be mine ? interested decide your age in it . also call me vince .

DON'T DO IT, GUYS.

[The CyNick]

That's great, but I'm not concerned with how nice you are.

I don't live with my parents and I haven't lived with them in over 15 years, nor do they have a basement.

For supposedly one of the nicest people I would ever meet, that's not exactly the "nicest" presumption you're alleging about me by the way.

I was being ironic. I don't actually think you live in your parents basement.

[XL]

There's no barrier to entry in this industry. Literally anyone with deep enough pockets could get TV time, buy some rings, rent arenas, contact talent and start a company. Anyone who tries has failed or had minimal success. Goes to show that Vince has figured out something that the others haven't.

It's funny reading statements about TNA lack of growth is somehow the wrongdoing of Vince. He ran his business and watched every competitor fail. Their lack of success should not be blamed on him.

There's no barrier to entry in this business...except if you're not a multi-millionaire that can afford to lose a bunch of money on start up/running a new wrestling company.

[The CyNick]

There's no barrier to entry in this business...except if you're not a multi-millionaire that can afford to lose a bunch of money on start up/running a new wrestling company.

That can be said about most businesses the size of WWE. If youer point is that a guy working at McDonalds likely can't start up a wrestling company tomorrow, you're right. But that doesn't mean Vince did something bad to the industry.

I don't think many McDonalds workers were starting up wrestling companies before Vince got involved in the game.

[XL]

Nope, not my point. Just enjoyed the way you said there are no barriers except for this HUGE barrier.

You're great value for money I'll give you that.

[#1-norm-fan]

Resist. Resissssst!

[The CyNick]

Nope, not my point. Just enjoyed the way you said there are no barriers except for this HUGE barrier.

You're great value for money I'll give you that.

You clearly never went to business school since you don't understand what a barrier to entry is. When I start CyNick University, I will let you take business 101 for free.

[XL]

Resist. Resissssst!

[Danny Electric]

all that testicular fortitude has to be a positive thing right.

[Danny Electric]

oh and every time I think of Vince I think of that scene from 'Beyond The Mat' where he wanted to call Droz 'Puke'

[Mr. Nerfect]

I used to believe some of the McMyths, but I now find myself in the same camp as educated folk like Destor, #1-wwf-fan and BigCrippyZ. Vince has smashed people over the head with the assertion that he somehow saved wrestling, took it out of smoky halls and legitimized it. All you need to do is account for inflation and you can see how he has scorched the earth.

Creatively, wrestling is fucked. If you prove yourself to be a good wrestler with anything resembling an ounce of creativity, the WWE will eventually snap you up. It has been presented as the "dream" to work there, and the kids getting into the business today eat it up. They'll be sent out there with some caricature of their gimmick, do scripted interviews that don't build any heat, and then they'll have the same match every week. Look at the wonderful talent signed to the WWE to train in Orlando -- and look at how everyone comes out with the same style, the WWE style (now influenced more by independent hybrid style), the "right way" to wrestle. This is despite guys getting injured a lot more frequently -- and they are breaking their bodies for almost no one.

The WWE product is gentrified. It's where pro-wrestling as art goes to die, and the artist goes to be force-fed until they become fat, lazy cats that don't mind lying in the sun for as long as Vince will pay them. And being there, traveling the world, seeing kids smile (because they've been conditioned to the cold), and having a reaffirming locker-room tells them all that they are doing the right thing, and that this is the "evolution" of wrestling.

With the death of WCW, hope for wrestling died out. There was no one to make Vince McMahon sweat and go at someone else's pace. He had no reason to be good anymore. It might seem counterproductive to try and purposely be bad, but Vince has had no reason to churn out quality when he is the only legitimate product there is.

The thing is, if a millionaire sank money into a wrestling promotion, it wouldn't be that unreasonable to imagine it competing effectively with Vince, provided the right minds were involved. All Vince has is the money. His television ratings are not unbeatable. He has no real stars. He's actually conditioned a lot of his wrestlers to be bad at their jobs (get over and draw money). Vince made the assertion that PPV is a dead industry -- a legitimately wrestling promotion could blow that right open. You watch how quickly Shawn Michaels came back and made a star if a billionaire went toe-to-toe with Vince. You watch how quickly Vince gets around film companies not wanting The Rock to wrestle if there is another wrestling show getting a higher rating share than him every week. You also watch how quickly talent jump if a viable alternative pops up too. You'd be seeing Nick Nemeth, Claudio Castagnoli and Bryan Danielson identifying with a different initialism very fast if there is something secure there.

And for proof, look at NXT. It's generally regarded as being better than RAW or SmackDown every week. It's wrestling done as wrestling was done prior to Vince taking over. Matches booked with talent you want to look strong going over strong so that your fans accept them as a big deal and are willing to pay to see them compete. Now, it is kept around on the good graces of Vince's money, and it can spend the dough to get the top independent talent in the world to work for it, but that talent generally gets very over, very quickly. In fact, the most over acts on the WWE roster haven't been around for that long either (James Ellsworth, Chris Jericho's pen).

It is still my jizzy-cock fantasy for The Rock to decide to compete with Vince. The Rock is the one dude that could make wrestling cool and sway instant smark opinion away from the Vince McMahon is God myth. He is charismatic enough to carry a show by doing a shit in the ring, and I have no doubt he could piece together a decent enough roster with relatively short notice who would be just dying to be seen as part of The Rock's crew.

Why would Rock fight Vince? Because if he can make the promotion profitable, it's an extra source of income for him and something for his production company to attach itself to. But it would also be good for the wrestling business. It would give guys like Nick Nemeth and Claudio Castagnoli places to work and be the stars that Rock got the chance to be. It's unlikely that either will be as great as The Rock -- especially in a crossover sense -- but they could be mainstream wrestling figures as long as it's in a place where that isn't against the Vince McMahon narrative.

I don't think it will happen, but if it did, wrestling would be in the spotlight again. Vince has taken it out of the spotlight.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

meltzer sheep,,,,,

[Mr. Nerfect]

That's why they call you Dastardly.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

i do what i can

[Damian Rey 2.0]

I miss gorgeous Dale

[The CyNick]

I used to believe some of the McMyths, but I now find myself in the same camp as educated folk like Destor, #1-wwf-fan and BigCrippyZ. Vince has smashed people over the head with the assertion that he somehow saved wrestling, took it out of smoky halls and legitimized it. All you need to do is account for inflation and you can see how he has scorched the earth.

Creatively, wrestling is fucked. If you prove yourself to be a good wrestler with anything resembling an ounce of creativity, the WWE will eventually snap you up. It has been presented as the "dream" to work there, and the kids getting into the business today eat it up. They'll be sent out there with some caricature of their gimmick, do scripted interviews that don't build any heat, and then they'll have the same match every week. Look at the wonderful talent signed to the WWE to train in Orlando -- and look at how everyone comes out with the same style, the WWE style (now influenced more by independent hybrid style), the "right way" to wrestle. This is despite guys getting injured a lot more frequently -- and they are breaking their bodies for almost no one.

The WWE product is gentrified. It's where pro-wrestling as art goes to die, and the artist goes to be force-fed until they become fat, lazy cats that don't mind lying in the sun for as long as Vince will pay them. And being there, traveling the world, seeing kids smile (because they've been conditioned to the cold), and having a reaffirming locker-room tells them all that they are doing the right thing, and that this is the "evolution" of wrestling.

With the death of WCW, hope for wrestling died out. There was no one to make Vince McMahon sweat and go at someone else's pace. He had no reason to be good anymore. It might seem counterproductive to try and purposely be bad, but Vince has had no reason to churn out quality when he is the only legitimate product there is.

The thing is, if a millionaire sank money into a wrestling promotion, it wouldn't be that unreasonable to imagine it competing effectively with Vince, provided the right minds were involved. All Vince has is the money. His television ratings are not unbeatable. He has no real stars. He's actually conditioned a lot of his wrestlers to be bad at their jobs (get over and draw money). Vince made the assertion that PPV is a dead industry -- a legitimately wrestling promotion could blow that right open. You watch how quickly Shawn Michaels came back and made a star if a billionaire went toe-to-toe with Vince. You watch how quickly Vince gets around film companies not wanting The Rock to wrestle if there is another wrestling show getting a higher rating share than him every week. You also watch how quickly talent jump if a viable alternative pops up too. You'd be seeing Nick Nemeth, Claudio Castagnoli and Bryan Danielson identifying with a different initialism very fast if there is something secure there.

And for proof, look at NXT. It's generally regarded as being better than RAW or SmackDown every week. It's wrestling done as wrestling was done prior to Vince taking over. Matches booked with talent you want to look strong going over strong so that your fans accept them as a big deal and are willing to pay to see them compete. Now, it is kept around on the good graces of Vince's money, and it can spend the dough to get the top independent talent in the world to work for it, but that talent generally gets very over, very quickly. In fact, the most over acts on the WWE roster haven't been around for that long either (James Ellsworth, Chris Jericho's pen).

It is still my jizzy-cock fantasy for The Rock to decide to compete with Vince. The Rock is the one dude that could make wrestling cool and sway instant smark opinion away from the Vince McMahon is God myth. He is charismatic enough to carry a show by doing a shit in the ring, and I have no doubt he could piece together a decent enough roster with relatively short notice who would be just dying to be seen as part of The Rock's crew.

Why would Rock fight Vince? Because if he can make the promotion profitable, it's an extra source of income for him and something for his production company to attach itself to. But it would also be good for the wrestling business. It would give guys like Nick Nemeth and Claudio Castagnoli places to work and be the stars that Rock got the chance to be. It's unlikely that either will be as great as The Rock -- especially in a crossover sense -- but they could be mainstream wrestling figures as long as it's in a place where that isn't against the Vince McMahon narrative.

I don't think it will happen, but if it did, wrestling would be in the spotlight again. Vince has taken it out of the spotlight.

Drew 100k people to Mania last year. If that's out of the spotlight, well the spotlight must be brighter than the Sun. I'll never forget when mid South used to put 70k people in a stadium every year. Those were the good ol'days.

[The CyNick]

I used to believe some of the McMyths, but I now find myself in the same camp as educated folk like Destor, #1-wwf-fan and BigCrippyZ. Vince has smashed people over the head with the assertion that he somehow saved wrestling, took it out of smoky halls and legitimized it. All you need to do is account for inflation and you can see how he has scorched the earth.

Creatively, wrestling is fucked. If you prove yourself to be a good wrestler with anything resembling an ounce of creativity, the WWE will eventually snap you up. It has been presented as the "dream" to work there, and the kids getting into the business today eat it up. They'll be sent out there with some caricature of their gimmick, do scripted interviews that don't build any heat, and then they'll have the same match every week. Look at the wonderful talent signed to the WWE to train in Orlando -- and look at how everyone comes out with the same style, the WWE style (now influenced more by independent hybrid style), the "right way" to wrestle. This is despite guys getting injured a lot more frequently -- and they are breaking their bodies for almost no one.

The WWE product is gentrified. It's where pro-wrestling as art goes to die, and the artist goes to be force-fed until they become fat, lazy cats that don't mind lying in the sun for as long as Vince will pay them. And being there, traveling the world, seeing kids smile (because they've been conditioned to the cold), and having a reaffirming locker-room tells them all that they are doing the right thing, and that this is the "evolution" of wrestling.

With the death of WCW, hope for wrestling died out. There was no one to make Vince McMahon sweat and go at someone else's pace. He had no reason to be good anymore. It might seem counterproductive to try and purposely be bad, but Vince has had no reason to churn out quality when he is the only legitimate product there is.

The thing is, if a millionaire sank money into a wrestling promotion, it wouldn't be that unreasonable to imagine it competing effectively with Vince, provided the right minds were involved. All Vince has is the money. His television ratings are not unbeatable. He has no real stars. He's actually conditioned a lot of his wrestlers to be bad at their jobs (get over and draw money). Vince made the assertion that PPV is a dead industry -- a legitimately wrestling promotion could blow that right open. You watch how quickly Shawn Michaels came back and made a star if a billionaire went toe-to-toe with Vince. You watch how quickly Vince gets around film companies not wanting The Rock to wrestle if there is another wrestling show getting a higher rating share than him every week. You also watch how quickly talent jump if a viable alternative pops up too. You'd be seeing Nick Nemeth, Claudio Castagnoli and Bryan Danielson identifying with a different initialism very fast if there is something secure there.

And for proof, look at NXT. It's generally regarded as being better than RAW or SmackDown every week. It's wrestling done as wrestling was done prior to Vince taking over. Matches booked with talent you want to look strong going over strong so that your fans accept them as a big deal and are willing to pay to see them compete. Now, it is kept around on the good graces of Vince's money, and it can spend the dough to get the top independent talent in the world to work for it, but that talent generally gets very over, very quickly. In fact, the most over acts on the WWE roster haven't been around for that long either (James Ellsworth, Chris Jericho's pen).

It is still my jizzy-cock fantasy for The Rock to decide to compete with Vince. The Rock is the one dude that could make wrestling cool and sway instant smark opinion away from the Vince McMahon is God myth. He is charismatic enough to carry a show by doing a shit in the ring, and I have no doubt he could piece together a decent enough roster with relatively short notice who would be just dying to be seen as part of The Rock's crew.

Why would Rock fight Vince? Because if he can make the promotion profitable, it's an extra source of income for him and something for his production company to attach itself to. But it would also be good for the wrestling business. It would give guys like Nick Nemeth and Claudio Castagnoli places to work and be the stars that Rock got the chance to be. It's unlikely that either will be as great as The Rock -- especially in a crossover sense -- but they could be mainstream wrestling figures as long as it's in a place where that isn't against the Vince McMahon narrative.

I don't think it will happen, but if it did, wrestling would be in the spotlight again. Vince has taken it out of the spotlight.

TNA is apparently thinking of PPV again, let's see how well they do. When they fail on PPV, you'll have some excuse. The fact is nobody has figured out the formula to draw money on PPV with sports entertainment. Even WCW was largely unsuccessful save for as couple years when they pushed stars Vince created.

[The CyNick]

I used to believe some of the McMyths, but I now find myself in the same camp as educated folk like Destor, #1-wwf-fan and BigCrippyZ. Vince has smashed people over the head with the assertion that he somehow saved wrestling, took it out of smoky halls and legitimized it. All you need to do is account for inflation and you can see how he has scorched the earth.

Creatively, wrestling is fucked. If you prove yourself to be a good wrestler with anything resembling an ounce of creativity, the WWE will eventually snap you up. It has been presented as the "dream" to work there, and the kids getting into the business today eat it up. They'll be sent out there with some caricature of their gimmick, do scripted interviews that don't build any heat, and then they'll have the same match every week. Look at the wonderful talent signed to the WWE to train in Orlando -- and look at how everyone comes out with the same style, the WWE style (now influenced more by independent hybrid style), the "right way" to wrestle. This is despite guys getting injured a lot more frequently -- and they are breaking their bodies for almost no one.

The WWE product is gentrified. It's where pro-wrestling as art goes to die, and the artist goes to be force-fed until they become fat, lazy cats that don't mind lying in the sun for as long as Vince will pay them. And being there, traveling the world, seeing kids smile (because they've been conditioned to the cold), and having a reaffirming locker-room tells them all that they are doing the right thing, and that this is the "evolution" of wrestling.

With the death of WCW, hope for wrestling died out. There was no one to make Vince McMahon sweat and go at someone else's pace. He had no reason to be good anymore. It might seem counterproductive to try and purposely be bad, but Vince has had no reason to churn out quality when he is the only legitimate product there is.

The thing is, if a millionaire sank money into a wrestling promotion, it wouldn't be that unreasonable to imagine it competing effectively with Vince, provided the right minds were involved. All Vince has is the money. His television ratings are not unbeatable. He has no real stars. He's actually conditioned a lot of his wrestlers to be bad at their jobs (get over and draw money). Vince made the assertion that PPV is a dead industry -- a legitimately wrestling promotion could blow that right open. You watch how quickly Shawn Michaels came back and made a star if a billionaire went toe-to-toe with Vince. You watch how quickly Vince gets around film companies not wanting The Rock to wrestle if there is another wrestling show getting a higher rating share than him every week. You also watch how quickly talent jump if a viable alternative pops up too. You'd be seeing Nick Nemeth, Claudio Castagnoli and Bryan Danielson identifying with a different initialism very fast if there is something secure there.

And for proof, look at NXT. It's generally regarded as being better than RAW or SmackDown every week. It's wrestling done as wrestling was done prior to Vince taking over. Matches booked with talent you want to look strong going over strong so that your fans accept them as a big deal and are willing to pay to see them compete. Now, it is kept around on the good graces of Vince's money, and it can spend the dough to get the top independent talent in the world to work for it, but that talent generally gets very over, very quickly. In fact, the most over acts on the WWE roster haven't been around for that long either (James Ellsworth, Chris Jericho's pen).

It is still my jizzy-cock fantasy for The Rock to decide to compete with Vince. The Rock is the one dude that could make wrestling cool and sway instant smark opinion away from the Vince McMahon is God myth. He is charismatic enough to carry a show by doing a shit in the ring, and I have no doubt he could piece together a decent enough roster with relatively short notice who would be just dying to be seen as part of The Rock's crew.

Why would Rock fight Vince? Because if he can make the promotion profitable, it's an extra source of income for him and something for his production company to attach itself to. But it would also be good for the wrestling business. It would give guys like Nick Nemeth and Claudio Castagnoli places to work and be the stars that Rock got the chance to be. It's unlikely that either will be as great as The Rock -- especially in a crossover sense -- but they could be mainstream wrestling figures as long as it's in a place where that isn't against the Vince McMahon narrative.

I don't think it will happen, but if it did, wrestling would be in the spotlight again. Vince has taken it out of the spotlight.

NXT is great. But I'm a hardcore fan. I'm in the group with the 1.4 million people who are passionate sports entertainment fan. If NXT was the way to book to the broader audience, the NXT house shows would be in the Staples Centre and The RAW and SDL house shows would be in bingo Halls. It's not like NXT is some new promotion, they have been around and been strong for several years. But to the AVERAGE fan they're not seen as big time. The genius of Vince and Hunter is that they are catering content to the hardcore fans and putting it on The Network. So sure you may claim to hate RAW (and watch every week), but you can still enjoy NXT, 205 Live, this British Deal, the upcoming Women's Show, etc.

Meanwhile in the main roster they continue to play to large crowds every week, are one of the most watched shows every week on cable, and draw more revenues year after year. You're blind hatred of Vince can't let you see the truth, which is guys methods are very successful. The multi millionaires he's created would echo that statement. Meanwhile Matt Hardy is taking bumps in his back yard for 50 people.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Drew 100k people to Mania last year. If that's out of the spotlight, well the spotlight must be brighter than the Sun. I'll never forget when mid South used to put 70k people in a stadium every year. Those were the good ol'days.

This is the argument people use when they want to keep their head in the sand. Everything's great, everything's great. Yeah, until it's not. You don't get an immediate drop-off. People use the 100k line to justify the creative direction coming out of the show. That's putting the cart before the horse.

[#1-norm-fan]

He's laying out the fallacies more blatantly now. He's tempting you all. RESISSSSSST!!!

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

shit's about to get lit

[#1-norm-fan]

No! We're gonna have a nice conversation between everyone else and pretend the troll doesn't exist. Nothing is getting lit. I believe in TPWW.

[Emperor Smeat]

100k+ crowd for Mania got debunked pretty quickly. Real number is around 94k but being assumed the paid number is actually somewhere between 74k-86k and the rest being given away to pad the numbers for the new record.

[#1-norm-fan]

Oh shit. Facts. This is bad...

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

i only want to incite CyNick to see wwffan go ballistic

<3 you though

also 94,000 with 86 thousand paid is not too shabby lol

[KIRA]

NXT is great. But I'm a hardcore fan. I'm in the group with the 1.4 million people who are passionate sports entertainment fan. If NXT was the way to book to the broader audience, the NXT house shows would be in the Staples Centre and The RAW and SDL house shows would be in bingo Halls. It's not like NXT is some new promotion, they have been around and been strong for several years. But to the AVERAGE fan they're not seen as big time. The genius of Vince and Hunter is that they are catering content to the hardcore fans and putting it on The Network. So sure you may claim to hate RAW (and watch every week), but you can still enjoy NXT, 205 Live, this British Deal, the upcoming Women's Show, etc.

Meanwhile in the main roster they continue to play to large crowds every week, are one of the most watched shows every week on cable, and draw more revenues year after year. You're blind hatred of Vince can't let you see the truth, which is guys methods are very successful. The multi millionaires he's created would echo that statement. Meanwhile Matt Hardy is taking bumps in his back yard for 50 people.

Nobody is enjoying 205 live except Vince. Its weird because like I said it SHOULD work but Vince has done the seemingly impossible and made the Crusierweights boring as fuck.

[KIRA]

Y'know Cynick There was A time I allowed myself to believe you weren't trolling mostly due to the interesting if deeply flawed kool-aid drinking logic but now....oh man.....

[BigCrippyZ]

Drew 100k people to Mania last year

100k+ crowd for Mania got debunked pretty quickly. Real number is around 94k but being assumed the paid number is actually somewhere between 74k-86k and the rest being given away to pad the numbers for the new record.

Cynick & Vince "Entertainment" Business: where 74k-86k = 94k = 100k+

Real Entertainment Business: where 500,000+ units actually sold = Gold and 1,000,000+ = Platinum

No wonder Vince almost went broke twice, he can't even accurately count the # of people who come to his events.

[Bad News Gertner]

Vince has said himself that the attendance isn't real

[The CyNick]

This is the argument people use when they want to keep their head in the sand. Everything's great, everything's great. Yeah, until it's not. You don't get an immediate drop-off. People use the 100k line to justify the creative direction coming out of the show. That's putting the cart before the horse.

No word of a lie, when I first started reading The Observer, call it in like 98 or something, Dave literally wrote that "everything is great until it's not" line. I think back then the big concern was so many DQ finishes on TV were going to lead to people not caring about matches which would eventually kill their ability to draw. Wherever I hear his blind faith followers like yourself parrot those types of lines I laugh. The company had never been stronger than it is now. Guys like Dave and you have been saying Doomsday is coming. Eventually if you keep repeating it, it might be true and then you can say "see told ya", but ignore the decades of being wrong.

Meanwhile the company continues to increase Network subs, continues to increase TV rights fees, Mania is on a decade long streak of doing 60k plus seat venues. All of which suggest the real fans, not the people who complain on TPWW (all ten of you guys), are very happy with the product.

[The CyNick]

100k+ crowd for Mania got debunked pretty quickly. Real number is around 94k but being assumed the paid number is actually somewhere between 74k-86k and the rest being given away to pad the numbers for the new record.

I never said 100k paid. WWE I'd a publicly traded company, they said over 100k people were in the building. Geeks on the Internet have tried to play detective and claim the number is a lie.

How many people were at WM3? The supposed WWE made up number of 93k or the dirt sheet made up number of 78k?

[The CyNick]

Nobody is enjoying 205 live except Vince. Its weird because like I said it SHOULD work but Vince has done the seemingly impossible and made the Crusierweights boring as fuck.

Well that's a while other story. Cruisers are never going to draw. At least Vince is trying to get them over by giving them their own show to get people to ignore that CWs look like midgets next to real stars like Roman Reigns. If the cruisers can't get over, and have people leaving the building, that's as much on them as it is Vince. And I would blame the talent more because cruisers should be able to get over with their work. If Vince tried to book them like he books his other shows, the same group of complainers would be saying "just let them work matches and they will get over". Wrong.

[The CyNick]

Cynick & Vince "Entertainment" Business: where 74k-86k = 94k = 100k+

Real Entertainment Business: where 500,000+ units actually sold = Gold and 1,000,000+ = Platinum

No wonder Vince almost went broke twice, he can't even accurately count the # of people who come to his events.

So you're saying he's a liar? He's going to risk lawsuits just to your a slightly larger number than the real one. I feel bad for you if you believe that.

[The CyNick]

Vince has said himself that the attendance isn't real

Which attendance? What they announce on TV? True, they're an entertainment company doing a show. But whatever they say in a corporate press release is true. I don't recall what number they put in there, but that's the real number. The geeks try to play detective and claim that WWE is lying.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

it is well known that people juice up attendance. It's what they do in the entertainment business, there's nothing wrong with it. Also, 84,000 people is a fuckton.

[#1-norm-fan]

i only want to incite CyNick to see wwffan go ballistic

Crippy and possibly Noid are more likely to go ballistic. They haven't completely stopped taking the bate yet.

[#1-norm-fan]

Though I have been considering coming out of TPWW REAL FIGHT retirement...

[Bad News Gertner]

Which attendance? What they announce on TV? True, they're an entertainment company doing a show. But whatever they say in a corporate press release is true. I don't recall what number they put in there, but that's the real number. The geeks try to play detective and claim that WWE is lying.

Only the financials have to be reported factual. Vince can say the attendance was 150,000 and he isn't breaking any laws.

[BigCrippyZ]

Only the financials have to be reported factual. Vince can say the attendance was 150,000 and he isn't breaking any laws.

This.

Another example of why Cynick is full of shit and doesn't actually know what he's talking about.

[Emperor Smeat]

I never said 100k paid. WWE I'd a publicly traded company, they said over 100k people were in the building. Geeks on the Internet have tried to play detective and claim the number is a lie.

How many people were at WM3? The supposed WWE made up number of 93k or the dirt sheet made up number of 78k?

The 74k-86k came from the arena when those same dirtsheets you constantly ridicule did some actual research into the numbers.

[BigCrippyZ]

The 74k-86k came from the arena when those same dirtsheets you constantly ridicule did some actual research into the numbers.

Shhh... don't use facts. They confuse him in part, because he thinks they're not legit because they don't come straight from Vince, HHH, etc. You might send him into a life altering spiral of denial...

[Destor]

Guys, Vince knows all. He is always right. Who ever has the most money is the most right. Stop.

[KIRA]

Well that's a while other story. Cruisers are never going to draw. At least Vince is trying to get them over by giving them their own show to get people to ignore that CWs look like midgets next to real stars like Roman Reigns. If the cruisers can't get over, and have people leaving the building, that's as much on them as it is Vince. And I would blame the talent more because cruisers should be able to get over with their work. If Vince tried to book them like he books his other shows, the same group of complainers would be saying "just let them work matches and they will get over". Wrong.

So its on Roman Reigns when Vince writes him garbage? hmm.

I think JR pointed out what a big part of the problem is in a triple threat between guys who should be high flyers you have a ridiclous amount of rest holds. Its one thing if thats your hat like Jack Gallagher but otherwise the whole thing should be a lot more frantic than it usually is.



I'd also argue Vince isn't the guy who should be overseeing this I honestly don't think he gets it when it comes to Cruiserweights. He really should go back and look at WCW in that regard.

[Bad News Gertner]

The problem with the Cruiserweight division is the "Heavyweight Division" or whatever you want to call it, more or less wrestle the same style as the cruiserweights. In WCW there was a vast difference between the two. Wrestling has evolved where you have heavyweights doing Cruiserweight moves. There's nothing special to them. You can't have them go balls to the wall night in and night out because you'll kill them after a couple months.

[#1-norm-fan]

I was a big proponent of the cruiserweight division coming back but that was with the caveat that the main event scene shouldn't be riddled with smaller guys. You could justify a few Daniel Bryan types "transcending the weight class" and working with the heavyweights but when they're all over the place, the division doesn't make sense.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I've yet to see a match that looks like psucisus vs Rey from bash at the beach 96 on wwe tv

[KIRA]

TNA is apparently thinking of PPV again, let's see how well they do. When they fail on PPV, you'll have some excuse. The fact is nobody has figured out the formula to draw money on PPV with sports entertainment. Even WCW was largely unsuccessful save for as couple years when they pushed stars Vince created.

Vince didn't create Sting or Goldberg

[Mr. Nerfect]

I was a big proponent of the cruiserweight division coming back but that was with the caveat that the main event scene shouldn't be riddled with smaller guys. You could justify a few Daniel Bryan types "transcending the weight class" and working with the heavyweights but when they're all over the place, the division doesn't make sense.

They bring back the Cruiserweight Title just as they drop "Heavyweight" from the World Title. It makes very little sense to me how they've done it. You also have guys like Cedric Alexander cutting weight in order to be in the division, while guys like Seth Rollins are in the "World" Title scene. It's really weird. They should have just done the CWC as a stand-alone thing, given it to Ibushi and called it a day until next year.

[Mr. Nerfect]

No word of a lie, when I first started reading The Observer, call it in like 98 or something, Dave literally wrote that "everything is great until it's not" line. I think back then the big concern was so many DQ finishes on TV were going to lead to people not caring about matches which would eventually kill their ability to draw. Wherever I hear his blind faith followers like yourself parrot those types of lines I laugh. The company had never been stronger than it is now. Guys like Dave and you have been saying Doomsday is coming. Eventually if you keep repeating it, it might be true and then you can say "see told ya", but ignore the decades of being wrong.

Meanwhile the company continues to increase Network subs, continues to increase TV rights fees, Mania is on a decade long streak of doing 60k plus seat venues. All of which suggest the real fans, not the people who complain on TPWW (all ten of you guys), are very happy with the product.

It's a common phrase -- I didn't make it up; nor did Dave Meltzer. It's cute you've memorized things he wrote in 1998 though. Sheep.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The numbers thing is some serious loltrolling though. Not anywhere near as good as other stuff these forums has seen, but crosses the line into being ridiculous enough that it is actually amusing.