Undertaker vs Roman---- the final verdict

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Just want to hear everyone's opinion of this match after having a few days to let it simmer. Retirement at the end et all.

I'll post mine in a bit.

Just think it's worth it's own thread because Roman is such a divisive guy and the match itself particularly closing was somewhat controversial. Everyone sort of gets lost in the mega thread.

LET US HAVE IT TPWW

(Owen Brown is not allowed to post in this thread, he loves Roman Reigns too much to be partial)

[Lock Jaw]

Not a fan of Roman but it was a "good ending", with the 9000 finishers in a row to put him away because he just kept coming...... and the attempted sit up..... just told the story that Takers heart was still there, but his body was starting to go.....

[Rammsteinmad]

I thought the match was boring to be honest. Mad respect for the Undertaker, but his time has long since past.

[Heisenberg]

The only mystique I felt in my loins was the unwanted chance to see my childhood hero die in the ring. Last year I finally got to see Undertaker @ WrestleMania and was glad he did not bump too hard. You shouldn't spend any time wondering when an old man is going to break down, he was immortal back in the day and that's how he should be remembered.


His potentially last WM match was theatrical, it was in front of a very passionate crowd who were distracted from the fact that this match was meant to catapult Roman to great heights. You can hear WWE try to prepare and sustain the backlash with their blanket statements on this week's set of shows RAW/SD. RAW read it correctly, then JBL goes and butchers the same sentence about how passionate the shows after Mania are. That makes it hard to some cause of the blatant lie being told. Vince even got a word in during his promo "You all really feel that way?" or something to that matter, I'm no good at quoting when I'm shooting off the hip.


An Undertaker/Sting WM encounter could still go down, full of theatrics, each having a young guy to manage. Thunderbolts and scorpions graphics a la Wyatt/Orton match. Don't give up faith on that, it would be nice to see that happen. As far as wrestling a match, I don't really see that happening and that is alright with me. It's not worth the risk.

[Jordan]

I was entertained throughout the match, thoroughly. It was hard hitting, good spots, good pace, good heat. I disagree with the distain for Roman, I think he's pretty great in the ring. I loved the ending, the Undertaker's ceremony was perfect. The only black eye was the botched tombstone reversal but it didn't ruin the match, just made it awkward for a moment.

[wwe2222]

I was fine with it. I thought it was much better than I thought it would be.

Still hate Roman retiring him.

[The CyNick]

I thought it was the perfect end for Taker. His whole gimmick of having supper recovery powers were only trumped by his body giving out on him. Real life we know he's badly in need of surgery, so I thought that all worked well. Roman is physically the perfect guy to be the one to put Taker out once and for all.

The extra thing I liked is that you have this 25+ year investment into Taker's dominance at Mania, and he now set the table for a future big time main event between Lesnar and Reigns.

[Stickman]

The match itself was actually very boring and anti clamatic. I think Taker should have gone out in a buried alive, casket, or body bag match as a tribute to the past. I appreciate the fact that Taker is old school enough to go out on his back and giving the rub to a younger guy but I think this match didn't deliver that rub. Brock Lesnar got that rub, Reigns flat out isn't good enough for that rub to mean anything.

I think regardless of your feelings of Reigns winning, this match didn't deliver the rub because there was really no storyline here. Not sure whose fault that is but this was a poorly delivered story. Why do these two guys hate each other? Why are they fighting? It was Strowman who called out Reigns then Taker comes outs then Reigns comes out, then somehow its Reigns vs Taker, wtf? There is no hatred, no back story, no history other than at the Royal Tumble, then they hype up, "whose yard is it?" Really? That's your basis for the Undertakers last match?

The match itself was really all you could expect between these two, mad respect to Taker for getting in there but is Reigns really good enough to carry a 50+ year old to anything? The only guy around 50 who can look great all the time is HBK. The issue I have, and I have had it for years since PG began is finishers now a days are weak as fuck. Reigns is slightly above Edge in terms of the spear looking devastating, and the super man punch is fucking terrible. Not sure if that is Reigns or WWE to blame but what happened to devastating finishers? Spear/jackhammer is devasting, suplex city/F5 is devasting, jack knife powerbomb, rko, tombstone, Frog splash, any submission with intensity, styles clash, etc are moves that look like they'd finish a match. Reigns doesn't have that solid finisher that makes you believe. So for Taker to go out at Wreslefrickenmania to weak as fuck finishers just isn't believable.

Reigns gets Cena hate, but the difference between the five moves of doom and Reigns is charisma. Cena can be gold on the mic. Whatever your opinion of Cena is and was, you have to agree at least the dude has charisma, works hard, has facial expressions, looks good and can get you invested. I have a hard time investing in Reigns. His ring gear is weird, why does he wear two belts? He has no facial expressions other than looking bored all the time. They talk about his power but he has yet to show us his feats of stregnth. I don't really know if he can wrestle because he is usally just throwing punches. To me he actually comes off as lazy. Maybe that's the wwe telling him what to do, maybe he is actually lazy, I don't know. But what I do know is they wasted UT retirement on a guy that I feel didn't deserve it. Hell, I think Strowman would have been better to end it, because that dude is believable (albeit still green).

[Swiss Ultimate]

I can't wait to watch Wrestemania in 6 months.

[Destor]

Match was flat. Partly due to the crowd being blown up partly due to taker being over the hill. It was good moment but would have been better done a few years ago.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Should have been 3 months after Brock ended the streak.

[Bad News Gertner]

Taker looked like a wrestler from the 80's still trying to slog it out on the indies.

[Destor]

Or just retired right then...

[Maluco]

Reigns/Taker - Beautiful and emotional end for one of the greatest of all time. An all time great Mania moment if he sticks to it. The fact that he wasn't good enough was a theme (both on purpose and by accident) of the match and it feels like he has gone on a match too long and paid for it.

My only gripe is that Reigns is now THE star of the company and he is not good enough. He is athletic, but thats it. Here, he was going up against a performer, capable of nuanced reactions, timing and just the correct measure of emotion at certain moments. Undertaker has been so successful because he is such a great performer.

Reigns is not. He is an athlete with no charisma and no real connection to the crowd. He doesn't know how to work them and his reactions and facials seem forced and the timing is completely off. It has denied Taker what HBK and Flair had before him - a performer fitting enough to create that match and that moment together with him.

People will talk about his merchandise sales, but i think wwefan hit the nail on the head when he said, kids will like anything that is presented to them in a strong way. He is the "best" and wins all the time, so buy his shirt.

It is sad because it means that he may never have the need to learn from guys like HBK and Taker on how to become a better performer, capable of bringing the crowd into the match and making them feel something. I think the company are doing him a disservice too by forcing the issue. The fact he has retired a truly great personality is ironic and sad at the same time.


Those are my thoughts from the Mania thread. To summarise, don't think Reigns was good enough to give him the emotional send off he deserved and think it highlighted the problem with potential stars and their lack of all round skills going forward.

[Maluco]

Also, no charisma is harsh for Reigns, he is developing a bit of presence and star power, but the "can't work a crowd" stuff still stands. His "acting" looks hokey and fake and i don't think the emotion of the match came across primarily because he was the protagonist.

As an athlete and in ring, i have no problems with Roman, but he is severely lacking in key areas that THE GUY should have.

[Destor]

If not Roman than who? I wont debate the replies, honestly curious.

[Heisenberg]

"This is my thread now"

[The CyNick]

About the t-shirt to kids comment, it's simply not true. If it was that easy, WWE would never have a guy at the top fail. At one point Chris Benoit was beating everyone, nobody bought his shirt. Our guys have received even stronger pushes and didn't get over like Roman is over right now.

The thing with Roman is the fans who never go to live events have no clue how over the guy is. He gets the biggest reactions night in night out. Look at Monday night. That had to be one of the loudest reactions in the history of the business. Not every guy who is pushed can garner that type of emotion. He was literally the perfect guy to end Taker's career.

[Stickman]

If not Roman than who? I wont debate the replies, honestly curious.

Lesnar, AJ, KO, Rusev (with a revised gimmick), Strowman, Rollins. Maybe Orton, Wyatt. Those guys have more of an IT factor than Reigns. Again, not trying to hate on Reigns, he just doesn't do anything for me, Dolph Ziggler has more IT than Reigns and I can't stand Ziggler.

[Stickman]

About the t-shirt to kids comment, it's simply not true. If it was that easy, WWE would never have a guy at the top fail. At one point Chris Benoit was beating everyone, nobody bought his shirt. Our guys have received even stronger pushes and didn't get over like Roman is over right now.

The thing with Roman is the fans who never go to live events have no clue how over the guy is. He gets the biggest reactions night in night out. Look at Monday night. That had to be one of the loudest reactions in the history of the business. Not every guy who is pushed can garner that type of emotion. He was literally the perfect guy to end Taker's career.

Ehhh I dont know, that crowd was going nuts prior to him coming out. New Jack couldve got that reaction that day.

[Swiss Ultimate]

If not Roman than who? I wont debate the replies, honestly curious.

Goldberg.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

About the t-shirt to kids comment, it's simply not true. If it was that easy, WWE would never have a guy at the top fail. At one point Chris Benoit was beating everyone, nobody bought his shirt. Our guys have received even stronger pushes and didn't get over like Roman is over right now.

The thing with Roman is the fans who never go to live events have no clue how over the guy is. He gets the biggest reactions night in night out. Look at Monday night. That had to be one of the loudest reactions in the history of the business. Not every guy who is pushed can garner that type of emotion. He was literally the perfect guy to end Taker's career.

Dave Meltzer would disagree

[Destor]

Goldberg.
:lol:

[The CyNick]

Dave Meltzer would disagree

If I was looking for advice on how to sell a newsletter to simpletons, I would value Dave's advice. If we're talking about the right decisions for booking sports entertainment, I would trust Vince over Dave.

[Emperor Smeat]

Match itself was pretty bad but the post-match send off was great.

Biggest problems were Taker being in very rough shape and them trying to recreate the HBK/Flair and HBK/Taker feelings with Reigns.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

If I was looking for advice on how to sell a newsletter to simpletons, I would value Dave's advice. If we're talking about the right decisions for booking sports entertainment, I would trust Vince over Dave.

Dave Meltzer knows WAY more than Vince. He's Dave Metlzer. Come on. Don't be ridiculous.

[mike adamle]

Are we actually for sure Taker is retired? He put his gloves down in the ring last year. He put his jacket and hat down this year. Maybe he wrestles next year... and strips naked after the match to cement the fact he's retiring.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

Getting a reaction and getting the right reaction are two different things. If a guy goes out there and gets boring chants, it's a reaction. But it's the wrong one.

Reigns is written, wrestles, talks and walks as a face. But he's received as a heel. To the point that it hijacks segments. That's not a positive. A reaction is better than no reaction, but is the complete opposite reaction than the one desired good? I think there's an argument there. It'd be different if they were organic with it all and made changes based on it. But they don't. They force feed and its apparent.

As far as the match, I thought, given the circumstances, it was exceptional. It was paced very well, there was some great spots, and the back and forth of it until Taker's body gave was a great story.

Yeah, there were botches. Flair botched and bridge in his last match and took a phantom bump. It happens. Doesn't ruin or take anything from the overall story.

I thought Roman did well. He really is a main event level performer. I just feel like he's a natural, cocky douche bag and wish they'd just let him play that up. But it was nonetheless a very good main event and much better than last year.

[DAMN iNATOR]

I think this may have been 'Taker's worst opponent since Giant Gonzales @ WM IX, and that's saying something.

[Maluco]

About the t-shirt to kids comment, it's simply not true. If it was that easy, WWE would never have a guy at the top fail. At one point Chris Benoit was beating everyone, nobody bought his shirt. Our guys have received even stronger pushes and didn't get over like Roman is over right now.

The thing with Roman is the fans who never go to live events have no clue how over the guy is. He gets the biggest reactions night in night out. Look at Monday night. That had to be one of the loudest reactions in the history of the business. Not every guy who is pushed can garner that type of emotion. He was literally the perfect guy to end Taker's career.


Who are these people who have gotten sustained pushes across years like Roman has?

From what I remember, Benoit's title reign was not that strong, and he certainly wasn't given the dominant 2-3 year long run that Roman has.

Only Cena...

[#BROKEN Hasney]

The worst Mania main event Taker had since Did and Roman managed for go under the already low bar he had with HHH.

I'm not fully blaming Roman since Undertakers matches haven't been great since Punk because he is old, but man, the match was a slog for get through.

[Destor]

Getting a reaction and getting the right reaction are two different things. If a guy goes out there and gets boring chants, it's a reaction. But it's the wrong one.

Reigns is written, wrestles, talks and walks as a face. But he's received as a heel. To the point that it hijacks segments. That's not a positive. A reaction is better than no reaction, but is the complete opposite reaction than the one desired good? I think there's an argument there. It'd be different if they were organic with it all and made changes based on it. But they don't. They force feed and its apparent.

As far as the match, I thought, given the circumstances, it was exceptional. It was paced very well, there was some great spots, and the back and forth of it until Taker's body gave was a great story.

Yeah, there were botches. Flair botched and bridge in his last match and took a phantom bump. It happens. Doesn't ruin or take anything from the overall story.

I thought Roman did well. He really is a main event level performer. I just feel like he's a natural, cocky douche bag and wish they'd just let him play that up. But it was nonetheless a very good main event and much better than last year.
If youbthink reigns is booked like a baby watch the rumble again

[mike adamle]

Seriously though, I don't think he's done.

[Stickman]

Seriously though, I don't think he's done.

I think he is, there is no way they do that and he keeps going.

[Simple Fan]

Thought the match was good. Didn't draw the emotion it should have because Reigns being involved but I thought it told a good story. Crowd kind of went dead when Reigns was on the offensive and was looking like he was going to win before Taker started his last stand and it brought them back up. If it wasn't for Roman I think fans could appreciate the match more but since he was involved it's just tainted. As for Taker after the match I'm with adamle as I really don't think he's done. If WWE needs a big match next year and he's up for it I can see him doing it. Plus New Orleans would be a great place to really retire the Deadman but I'm fine if he never wrestles again.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

If youbthink reigns is booked like a baby watch the rumble again

you fucking mark :p

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I think this may have been 'Taker's worst opponent since Giant Gonzales @ WM IX, and that's saying something.

if you're being serious you're an idiot

if you're not being serious you're an unfunny idiot

[Damian Rey 2.0]

How can a guy who is constantly built to bulldoze heels considered a heel?

[mike adamle]

I think he is, there is no way they do that and he keeps going.

I already mentioned how they keep it going, they have him strip naked at the next mania and he leaves his entire set of attire in the ring, maybe they can have him wear a diaper under his tights or something, or they could even have him take the diaper off too and reveal to the fans whoever he faced forced him to evacuate his bowels in the match.

[Destor]

you fucking mark :p
:lol:

Mizzies. MIZZIES EVERYWHERE

[Ruien]

Honestly, I havnt watched the match. I did watch the send off though and thought it was really good.

[DAMN iNATOR]

if you're being serious you're an idiot

if you're not being serious you're an unfunny idiot

I'm completely serious. All they did all match was trade finishers and finisher reversals. It was (Big) dog shit.

[DAMN iNATOR]

If youbthink reigns is booked like a baby watch the rumble again

They try to book him strong and protect him at the same time. It doesn't work that way. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

[Destor]

They try to book him strong and protect him at the same time. It doesn't work that way. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Well that isnt what they did at the rumble. The booked him as a spoiler and had orton "over come the odds" dumping him clean.

For those playing along at home that's how you use heels.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I think Taker worked hard. So did Roman. The match "was what it was" & "be that as it may" it was just a backdrop for the sad retirement which won everyone over.

I found the booking of Reigns to have no courage but as far as giving Taker a send off, it worked, even if as Des said, it should have happened a few years back.

[RaginRonic]

I know this.

I'm terrified of a WWE future without The UnderTaker involved.

He's probably the only reason why those who became fans of the WWF back in the early-90s continued to watch this long.

The saddest day is going to be when he finally verbally addresses those who've been his 'Creatures', when he goes into the WWE Hall Of Fame. The finality of that is going to really hurt for a while.

I hope that when he goes in, he's the only one inducted in his year's class. No one else but him. And I also hope that he gets a 20-minute standing ovation of love and thanks from those fans who attend.

I do wish him the happiest and longest of retirements, and pray that he stays safe out in his future travels.

For the record, I've been one of his 'Creatures' since Sat., Feb. 29, 1992 at ~11:40AM EST that morning, or my 12:40PM AST.

[Jordan]

I know this.


I hope that when he goes in, he's the only one inducted in his year's class. No one else but him. And I also hope that he gets a 20-minute standing ovation of love and thanks from those fans who attend.


No way that's happening.

[DAMN iNATOR]

No way that's happening.

Exactly. Wish in one hand , crap in the other and see which fills up faster.

[drave]

I guess what "sucks" is that this really does nothing to further develop Reigns and whatever "character" he is supposed to have.

In 2 PPV cycles, it will be forgotten about. I think the "sendoff" will still be talked about, but not the match itself. Just feels kinda like a throw-away type element.

Reigns is still uber boring to watch/listen to. No emotion at all until he does his stupid "OOOOOAAAAAAHHHH" before his awful spear.

Google image search his name, and 99% of the pictures that show all have the exact same, dumb facial expression. Occasionally there is a change, like this though:
https://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/12784777.png

[DAMN iNATOR]

I think it was to try and make him look more credible as a threat to whoever the WWE or Universal Champion is, pending the "Superstar shake-up".

As much as it pains me to think about, I'm guessing the current plan is protect Brock by not having him defend at any RAW PPV, as I believe he and his Universal Championship will stay on RAW, but rather v. Reigns @ SummerSlam with Reigns' indefinite push to infinity and beyond beginning there. Hopefully this will be the last chance Vince has to try and force someone on the fans before he either retires (yeah, right) or the inevitable.

[The CyNick]

Who are these people who have gotten sustained pushes across years like Roman has?

From what I remember, Benoit's title reign was not that strong, and he certainly wasn't given the dominant 2-3 year long run that Roman has.

Only Cena...

But guys stay on top because they move the needle.

You think Vince pushes a guy, the guy starts costing him bank and then he goes, screw it, I don't need more money im going to keep pushing him? Makes no sense to do that.

Reigns had headlined three Manias, and they are the top three grossing Manias of all time. WWE Network has grown subs under Reigns. TV is down, but so is TV in general. So why would they stop pushing him? Because the newsletter fans don't like him?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

But guys stay on top because they move the needle.

You think Vince pushes a guy, the guy starts costing him bank and then he goes, screw it, I don't need more money im going to keep pushing him? Makes no sense to do that.

Reigns had headlined three Manias, and they are the top three grossing Manias of all time. WWE Network has grown subs under Reigns. TV is down, but so is TV in general. So why would they stop pushing him? Because the newsletter fans don't like him?

I'd have to ask Dave Meltzer about this to be sure tbh.

[Emperor Smeat]

But guys stay on top because they move the needle.

You think Vince pushes a guy, the guy starts costing him bank and then he goes, screw it, I don't need more money im going to keep pushing him? Makes no sense to do that.

Reigns had headlined three Manias, and they are the top three grossing Manias of all time. WWE Network has grown subs under Reigns. TV is down, but so is TV in general. So why would they stop pushing him? Because the newsletter fans don't like him?

Diesel. Took Vince around a year to realize how big of a bust he was as a top star. Also the last time prior to Reigns that he stuck with someone that long before giving up. Every other bust as top star material got yanked a lot sooner.

[#1-norm-fan]

When WWE can't rely on stars from the past... or stars from other wrestling companies that haven't even been in existence for the better part of 2 decades... then I guess we'll see how hot Roman Reigns is as a draw.

[#1-norm-fan]

Seriously, as long as they've got Taker, HHH, Goldberg, Lesnar, Shane McMahon, etc. for around for nostalgia and to make the show seem like a big deal, WrestleMania is set as the wrestling fan's Super Bowl. They could push fucking Mojo Rawley as the top guy and have him close out the show and a psychopath like CyNick would be like "HE'S A DRAW GUYS! I TOLD YOU!"

Eventually they're gonna be in a position where the precedent is set that there's no more Rock comebacks. No more Lesnar. Not more Taker. No more old WCW legends. No more McMahons. No one is left from when you remember wrestling being good. WrestleMania is now sold on Roman Reigns, Finn Balor, Seth Rollins...

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

He moves the needle tbh fam

[Destor]

Ive said it before and ill say it again: reigns being both the top heel and top fsce is good for business. Especially when they have 0 stars

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And ive said it before. You are a mark

[Destor]

Yeah...but that just like...your opinion man

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Lol! Damn you. Well played.

[Destor]

Destor puts the D in The Dude

[Destor]

...bad phrasing

[#1-norm-fan]

Having a guy who is universally liked is definitely much better for business than having a guy who is liked by children and despised by adults.

[Destor]

Having a guy who is universally liked is definitely much better for business than having a guy who is liked by children and despised by adults.

If that were only an option

[DAMN iNATOR]

...bad phrasing

Angle-esque, even.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Destor puts the D in The Dude

:naughty:

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Having a guy who is universally liked is definitely much better for business than having a guy who is liked by children and despised by adults.

Oui

[#1-norm-fan]

If that were only an option

It's an option. It just takes effort. And WWE doesn't seem to want to put in that effort. And that's why the future is bleak.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Imo a guy like Ambrose was on the way there. Shoetcomings aside. But instead of giving him an edge they turned him into a complete nincompoop

[Bad News Gertner]

Ugh, Ambrose is not a top guy. He's too goofy.

[Mr. Pierre]

Ambrose's character did a complete 180 unfortunately.

12 months ago he was intense, urgent and looking for a fight.

Now he claims he's taking naps before the Royal Rumble.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Ugh, Ambrose is not a top guy. He's too goofy.

As I said. They booked him as a nincompoop.

[XL]

Reigns should come out dressed as Taker from now on.

[Evil Vito]

I thought the match sucked. But that's no fault to the performers involved. There's only so much Taker was physically capable of in his current physical condition.

[drave]

Should've faded to black instead,,,,,,

[Sixx]

it was fucking stupid.