Cornette vs Russo: The Definitive Thread The most entertaining angle in wrestling right now!

[The MAC]

CORNETTE RANTS THEN LAY OUT A CHALLENGES

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HErBP9e6H9A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>





VINCE RUSSO "APOLOGISES"

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/JDsq3wn9_X0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


You know you love it!

[RP]

I like Vince Russo a lot. I really do think WWE should bring him in, because this shit they write lacks balls.

After hearing all the point of views of Bash at the Beach 2000, I think Russo was pretty brilliant in that situation. I feel like Hogan was the asshole hurdle he had to get over.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Love Cornette. Fuck Russo.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Corny can still fucking promo. God, I wish the WWE would let him the mouthpiece for The Revival.

[Mr. Nerfect]

My dream feud is Jim Cornette vs. #1-wwf-fan. I don't know who I would mark out for more.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Russo's sucks. I can't get more than a few seconds in before the bullshit meter starts going off, and then it gets very boring, very fast. Also, the mock being scared by someone as you put them down is weak as fuck. Plus he keeps going back to bullshit Corny has called him on -- the charity stuff. If you've got the money, bro, why don't you donate it to the legends that apparently can't work Skype (even though legends appear on Cornette's show all the time) right now?

Russo is a bottomless pit of logical fallacies and a talentless hack of a writer. He failed everywhere but the WWF. The things he is lauded for -- "writing something for everyone" -- is not the reason the Attitude era succeeded and was actually a detriment to the wrestling business. Angles only matter if there isn't one every five minutes. Russo didn't need a filter, like the myth suggests -- he needed a block. When he was allowed to touch main event talent, like he was in WCW, you can see the effect he had. TNA lost Spike TV because of Russo and the best chance at competition returning went down the drain because Russo took Kurt Angle and made his effect on the business negligible.

Fuck Russo.

[Ultra Mantis]

Cornette is an elderly man-child who is perpetually pissed off that nobody continues to believe in Santa Claus after they already found out he wasn't real 30 years ago.

[Mr. Nerfect]

He's right though. Look at the money boxing and MMA make on PPV when they have an honest-to-god heel who riles people up. People fall for the personalities in those two sports all the time, because they think they are real.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Wrestling is, ironically, an industry that doesn't benefit from wrestling tricks. Boxing, MMA -- fuck, Donald Trump's politics. It's classic wrestling stuff.

[#1-norm-fan]

Shit's heating up again. Cornette has laid down the classic "I'll pay you $5,000 to come fight me" challenge. Russo responded by going old school heel with a "You're a fat fuck and I'd crush you in a second but I'm rich and $5,000 isn't even worth the trouble, bro" response. HOT SHIT.

PICK YOUR SIDE!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HErBP9e6H9A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/JDsq3wn9_X0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[#1-norm-fan]

Promo-wise, Cornette brought the intensity. Russo brought the subtlety. Russo did have to script his promo, though. VERY NEW SCHOOL.

[BigCrippyZ]

I'm going with fan on this one.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Russo's promo was boring.

[#1-norm-fan]

Good SWERVE though. When I saw the title of the video I thought he was going all out with the born again Christian gimmick and genuinely asking for forgiveness.

[Destor]

Team Cornette but Russo would win

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't know. Logic says Russo would win a fight based on age and physical condition... but Cornette's intensity, fearlessness and the fact that he seems like he might be a little crazy makes me wonder.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Damnit a Russo swerve I didn't see coming. Well done on his part. I'd still go with Jimmy.

[Maluco]

Two side of the same coin. Both absolutely convinced that they are misunderstood geniuses, when the reality is that they don't really understand what fans want to see.

The hatred comes from the fact they are so similar, even though they have polar ideas. Same attitude, same approach and same documented failures. The fact that neither is a prominent figure in the business, or have been for many years, is all the evidence that's needed tbh.

Both are so creative, but also too arrogant to learn and adapt and listen to others. Two sides of the same coin.

[Mr. Nerfect]

This poll is restoring my faith in TPWW. :heart:

[Bad News Gertner]

Lol Russo is not rich. Having a podcast even on podcast one doesn't exactly bring a windfall of cash

[Emperor Smeat]

TNA lost Spike TV because of Russo and the best chance at competition returning went down the drain because Russo took Kurt Angle and made his effect on the business negligible.

Fuck Russo.
Russo is pretty terrible without some sort of filter or leash for his ideas but I'd blame Dixie way more for TNA's demise on Spike TV.

Legit got told not to hire Russo again because the network despised him. The smart move would have been to just listen and go in a new direction. Instead she had Russo hired again in secret and Spike only finding out months later because of the sheets and emails revealed.

Then again Dixie also played a big role in TNA's demise from Destination America as well.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Two side of the same coin. Both absolutely convinced that they are misunderstood geniuses, when the reality is that they don't really understand what fans want to see.

The hatred comes from the fact they are so similar, even though they have polar ideas. Same attitude, same approach and same documented failures. The fact that neither is a prominent figure in the business, or have been for many years, is all the evidence that's needed tbh.

Both are so creative, but also too arrogant to learn and adapt and listen to others. Two sides of the same coin.

I disagree. I think Heyman and Cornette are the opposite of the same coin. Lance Storm recently described them as such too. Russo doesn't really have anyone that he is compared to. I'd maybe suggest Bischoff, in the sense that they both had a "go, go, go" and television-based approach.

But yeah, I don't really see how they are similar, even from the outside, haha. Russo hates women and wrestling fans, whereas Cornette hates conservatives and people who book badly. I don't really know how you compare their failures either. Maybe Cornette with ROH is similar to Russo in TNA, but he didn't exactly cost them a deal with Spike TV -- his television just wasn't well-received by fans. He actually helped negotiate the Sinclair purchase, which was either the worst thing to happen to ROH or the only reason it is still around.

I'd compare SMW with ECW in terms of their time period, scope, and being a notable territory in the 90's that introduced a lot of new talent to the world. Cornette and Heyman both also had pretty good runs in OVW. Russo tanked everywhere else he went.

Cornette and Heyman are both also great managers and mouthpieces, and instrumental orators in wrestling. Russo made himself the World Champion.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol Russo is not rich.

Lol, if he's so concerned with giving money to charity, why doesn't he just do it?

[#1-norm-fan]

Lol Russo is not rich. Having a podcast even on podcast one doesn't exactly bring a windfall of cash

... Before he filmed that promo he was mowing the lawn around his cabin... on HIS lake. Were you even listening, bro?

[Bad News Gertner]

It's just so ridiculous. Cornette is not exactly unfoulable either. I've been saying for years as much as I love Corny, his career is littered with failures. They are both ridiculous, but at least Cornette is well spoken.

[#1-norm-fan]

Two side of the same coin. Both absolutely convinced that they are misunderstood geniuses, when the reality is that they don't really understand what fans want to see.

The hatred comes from the fact they are so similar, even though they have polar ideas. Same attitude, same approach and same documented failures. The fact that neither is a prominent figure in the business, or have been for many years, is all the evidence that's needed tbh.

Both are so creative, but also too arrogant to learn and adapt and listen to others. Two sides of the same coin.

To be fair, the direction WWE's ratings and live attendance have been going since these guys left suggest that the people who ARE prominent figures in the business don't exactly have much more of a grasp on what fans want to see.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Oh god, Russo's promo is fucking terrible:

* You don't apologize for shit you're not responsible for. That's weak. Russo even writes his own promos to be illogical.

* Hey Russo, how's Rocky Mountain Wrestling doing?

* Lol, Russo didn't raise ratings in WCW. Got into a discussion with someone about this recently -- the big dip obviously came at the beginning of 1999, but when Russo took over there were 11 weeks left of television for WCW in 1999; his 11 weeks performed under not only the average for the year, but the average leading up to it.

* WCW PPV also went down under Russo. 0.52 for Halloween Havoc (which was a well performing PPV for them); 0.45 for Mayhem; 0.32 for Starrcade. PPV would continue to trend downwards for WCW when Sullivan returned, but drawing a 0.32 for Starrcade. For comparison's sake, Starrcade the year before drew a 1.15.

* Lol, isn't Russo the reason TNA got thrown off Spike TV? I wouldn't be reminding people you worked for them or including Dixie Carter as a reference on your wrestling resume.

* Lol, Russo didn't dress like the village idiot? He just made himself the WCW World Champion. Idiot.

Fuck I hate this guy.

[#1-norm-fan]

Oh. There's a thread on this already. Well, mine has a poll.

[Mr. Nerfect]

It's just so ridiculous. Cornette is not exactly unfoulable either. I've been saying for years as much as I love Corny, his career is littered with failures. They are both ridiculous, but at least Cornette is well spoken.

Cornette's is at least a promo and not a poorly written high school oral presentation.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Russo is pretty terrible without some sort of filter or leash for his ideas but I'd blame Dixie way more for TNA's demise on Spike TV.

Legit got told not to hire Russo again because the network despised him. The smart move would have been to just listen and go in a new direction. Instead she had Russo hired again in secret and Spike only finding out months later because of the sheets and emails revealed.

Then again Dixie also played a big role in TNA's demise from Destination America as well.

That's true, and I don't hold Dixie Carter blameless, but Vince Russo actually is the Vince Russo that Spike TV never wanted back. He can't be separated from himself.

I don't really buy the filter point for whatever reason either. It's just always seemed way too generous to a do who has had no success anywhere but the WWF.

[#1-norm-fan]

I get the gist of Russo's reasoning for the "go, go, go" approach. He was writing a TV show. He's just too dumb to realize that you can't write wrestling as a typical TV show. Putting the title on David Arquette was a fine idea to get attention. Great. But when you've got this 3 hour show and you're trying to build PPVs that you want people to pay for, if you're not the greatest writer who ever lived and can keep coming up with new innovative ideas on a weekly basis, you're eventually gonna need this prestigious prop that's been protected for decades to convince people to give you money. And if the prop means shit, you're fucked.

I will say this for Russo, though. He spends a lot of time knocking the guys WWE tries to build up as stars nowadays and their tendency to book for the typical smark crowd. I think he at least understands the fault in that.

[Bad News Gertner]

I at least enjoy Corny doing the Timeline and Back to the Territory DVD'S. Everything Russo does is unlistenable

[Simple Fan]

at least Cornette is well spoken.

Amazing that this can be said and be true in this situation.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I get the gist of Russo's reasoning for the "go, go, go" approach. He was writing a TV show. He's just too dumb to realize that you can't write wrestling as a typical TV show. Putting the title on David Arquette was a fine idea to get attention. Great. But when you've got this 3 hour show and you're trying to build PPVs that you want people to pay for, if you're not the greatest writer who ever lived and can keep coming up with new innovative ideas on a weekly basis, you're eventually gonna need this prestigious prop that's been protected for decades to convince people to give you money. And if the prop means shit, you're fucked.

I will say this for Russo, though. He spends a lot of time knocking the guys WWE tries to build up as stars nowadays and their tendency to book for the typical smark crowd. I think he at least understands the fault in that.

I don't think he really understands drama or the conventions of even a normal television show. He certainly doesn't get wrestling, which is evident in how he's bombed pretty much everywhere else, but I think even his view of television is really warped. Like, there's no continuity or consistency to what he does. So much in the Attitude era that gets lauded actually doesn't make sense. Like -- it's bad TV. The WWE currently do bad TV, with so much stuff being redundant. There was less redundancy in the Attitude era, but the stories often made no fucking sense. Vince McMahon as the Higher Power anyone?

I think Russo is right about them catering to smarks, but I think he is right about it in the wrong way. He is pro-Jinder Mahal WWE Champion. And I think his views shift to be contrarian. He'd be pro-Owens if he were booking, but because he's not, he's anti-Owens. For example.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I at least enjoy Corny doing the Timeline and Back to the Territory DVD'S. Everything Russo does is unlistenable

Russo is so bad. I am looking forward to Corny's reply though, because he's underrated for his eloquence and intelligence. Like, people know he can talk, but I don't think people realize how smart he is and how he can dissect with logic. There's a lot of misconceptions about him. Like, I think Joey Ryan called him homophobic or something? Pretty sure Corny's fairly liberal lol. But it fits this "old time wrestling hick" narrative. Now that Corny has gotten the yelling off his chest, I can see him going through and absolutely ripping Russo apart, since Russo is so full of self-cannibalizing arguments and such.

And that's mainly why I can't listen to Russo. He's just so full of shit, haha. Corny, while he sometimes puts his foot in his mouth or takes things too far, at least believes what he says and makes a coherent argument for himself. Russo is just like "Bro, Vince McMahon would be broke without me. He had no clue what to do with Steve Austin, bro."

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm a bit of a Cornette mark, but the quickest way to hating Vince Russo is to actually listen to Vince Russo.

[BigCrippyZ]

I don't think he really understands drama or the conventions of even a normal television show. He certainly doesn't get wrestling, which is evident in how he's bombed pretty much everywhere else, but I think even his view of television is really warped. Like, there's no continuity or consistency to what he does. So much in the Attitude era that gets lauded actually doesn't make sense. Like -- it's bad TV. The WWE currently do bad TV, with so much stuff being redundant. There was less redundancy in the Attitude era, but the stories often made no fucking sense. Vince McMahon as the Higher Power anyone?

I think even though it didn't always make sense, even when it didn't make perfect sense, for many reasons (the swerves, TV14, the announcing, variety of different styles of matches & wrestlers, characters, etc.) it was still damn good entertainment with way more hits than misses. You knew if one segment dragged, the next was way more likely to more than make up for it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

It had an energy at the time and the stars carried it. Wrestling was cool and you'd forgive the shit that didn't work. Can you imagine watching RAW without Austin and Rock though? *shudders*

[BigCrippyZ]

It had an energy at the time and the stars carried it. Wrestling was cool and you'd forgive the shit that didn't work. Can you imagine watching RAW without Austin and Rock though? *shudders*

It would never have been what it was without those two. There's no doubt about that. I also think Chris Kreski should get a ton more credit than he does.

[Mr. Nerfect]

It would have been great to know his mind a bit more before he passed. When Stephanie McMahon took over creative is when things really started to fall. That being said, I'm not entirely sure the Attitude era was sustainable anyway. It'd be interesting to know where Kreski planned to take things.

[Mr. Nerfect]

God, I wish I knew more about Chris Kreski. There's so little about him out there.

[BigCrippyZ]

It would have been great to know his mind a bit more before he passed. When Stephanie McMahon took over creative is when things really started to fall. That being said, I'm not entirely sure the Attitude era was sustainable anyway. It'd be interesting to know where Kreski planned to take things.

I don't think the popularity in itself was sustainable, especially not with Rock and Austin eventually having to both leave at some point regardless.

Would love to know what Kreski would've done differently over the last 20+ years, or what he and Heyman could've done together if they'd gotten the chance to work together. No doubt it would likely be miles better than most of what we've seen, though I'm also not sure that's saying enough given today's lack of quality.

[BigCrippyZ]

I wonder how much Kreski's storyboards, etc., helped Vince (and maybe even the talent, etc.?) keep track and realize the importance and impact of continuity in the stories?

[Ezra]

I had no idea I lived so close to Russo until I listened to Cornette's promo. I am going to infiltrate the Russo ranch and befriend him. For what reason I have no idea.

[Nicky Fives]

Bro, Cornette all the way, BRO....

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Cornette is just a way better performer as well. Way less selfish

[Maluco]

When I say they are two sides of the same coin, I mean they are both stubborn, arrogant and too set in their ways to adapt to the times and learn from other people.

I know Corbett's fans like what he says about wrestler and it appeals to old school fans, but he is completely lost to what modern day fans want to see and that has been proven. He has failed much more than he has succeeded, same with Russo.

And they both fail for the same reason, they are far more similar than they think. They are both too old to learn new tricks now anyway though.

As entertaining as Cornette is as a personality, his views in wrestling are dated and he is too stubborn, arrogant and ill tempered to be of any use in 2017.

Although, like fan said above and Corgan has said previously, I don't think anyone has a formula for 2017 and right now, everyone is failing in at least some way.

[Destor]

What are the new tricks?

[Mr. Nerfect]

When I say they are two sides of the same coin, I mean they are both stubborn, arrogant and too set in their ways to adapt to the times and learn from other people.

I know Corbett's fans like what he says about wrestler and it appeals to old school fans, but he is completely lost to what modern day fans want to see and that has been proven. He has failed much more than he has succeeded, same with Russo.

And they both fail for the same reason, they are far more similar than they think. They are both too old to learn new tricks now anyway though.

As entertaining as Cornette is as a personality, his views in wrestling are dated and he is too stubborn, arrogant and ill tempered to be of any use in 2017.

Although, like fan said above and Corgan has said previously, I don't think anyone has a formula for 2017 and right now, everyone is failing in at least some way.

Man, I don't think Cornette's views are that dated. I know the ROH stuff didn't go well, but NXT is basically a glossy version of SMW and what Cornette had envisioned for ROH. I think it was the wrong promotion to do it with, and because indy wrestling hadn't really penetrated the WWE as much, I don't think smarks on the scene were ready for the change. I honestly think that Corny was actually ahead of his time with that one, as weird as that is to say.

Look at ROH today (and I know it's not the best it's ever been). Dalton Castle, Bully Ray, Silas Young -- there are a few more "old-school" and "rasslin'" influences in there now. I concede that the product isn't "white-hot" anymore, but the WWE have essentially neutured any impact ROH can potentially make by being a super indy, because they have adapted so much of the talent and style that it is no longer alternative.

I wouldn't call OVW and SMW "failures." SMW was one of the last viable territories. I'd actually give the nod to ECW being the last one, but SMW is undervalued for what it gave to pro-wrestling. OVW is still the only successful developmental league the WWE has ever had. NXT is a finishing school. I don't even know if I'd consider his TNA run a "failure." Like with Dutch, I'd consider it a pretty good run, albeit marred by Russorifics by the end.

His run as a performer has certainly not been a failure. I know I'm a bit of a Cornette mark, but if you use the measure of success that "they're not running a company or aren't in the WWE" to determine whether or not someone is a failure then I think you're looking at pretty much everybody as a failure.

Stubborn? Sure, but I sort of admire that. He sticks to his philosophies of logic and straight-forward angles and storytelling. He's a wrestling prescriptivist -- there are rules for a reason; they work, so don't fuck with them. And there are good rules that are broken way too much these days. Some other minds might be more of a wrestling descriptivist -- cultural changes mean that wrestling needs to change, and you can break rules once you know what they are.

Truth be told, I don't even think Corny is against breaking rules, he just gets mad that no one knows what they are anymore.

[Mr. Nerfect]

What are the new tricks?

Oomph. There's a logic bomb.

[Maluco]

What are the new tricks?

It's a new audience, the world is a different place, you have to evolve and be open to learning and adapting. I don't think either of these men are. A lot of the formula is still the same, working the crowd, having stars that people want to see etc...

But Stone Cold is different to Hogan, is different to Backlund, is different to Sammartino. Times change and people in any professional or walk of life can never assume that they know it all.

[erickman]

yeah it showed no one knew the rules in the cage tag match at extreme rules

[Gerard]

LoL @ "The arch bishop of Talent-bury" :lol:

[Maluco]

I think Cornette is a great personality btw, but I also think he can be very hard to listen to because he is so abusive.

He says a lot of good stuff, but he also hasn't changed a bit and I think you have to.

I am basically arguing that the core of wrestling is the same, but his hall of fame speech, for example. He acted like the Midnight Express were still doing it today and hailed them for still bringing it 30 years later.

He is stuck in the past and doesn't understand the changes that wrestling has undergone.

I think it would be great if they listened to him on how to make a star, for example.

But he doesn't have all the answers and it can get insufferable listening to someone with a patchy track record, acting like they do.

[Destor]

It's a new audience, the world is a different place, you have to evolve and be open to learning and adapting. I don't think either of these men are. A lot of the formula is still the same, working the crowd, having stars that people want to see etc...

But Stone Cold is different to Hogan, is different to Backlund, is different to Sammartino. Times change and people in any professional or walk of life can never assume that they know it all.

The characters are modern and "hip" but structurally its as it has been for 40 years

[Destor]

Shine heat comeback finish. Build heat to the blow off send em home happy. The end,

[Mr. Nerfect]

It's a myth that Corny doesn't like new wrestling, by the way. I feel the need to state that, because it always seems to pop up, and seemingly smart people perpetuate it constantly. That's a line that a few indy darlings that have been called into the principal's office use as a straw-man to dismiss a guy who yells at them, which culturally isn't a form of education they feel is appropriate anymore.

I personally don't mind those sorts of mentors, because I find them very easy to deal with. If you're straight forward with them and say "Yeah, I fucked up, how can I not fuck up next time?" usually they are happy to tell you and then next time you know what they are looking for. Shit gets out of hand when you are stubborn yourself and don't take the responsibility for your perceived fuck-up. If you smirk, back-chat or just ignore the advice. Cornette has told the story about him blowing up at John Cena just once about going over time. Cena never went over time again.

Talking about opposite sides of the same coin, I think that is why Cornette and Owens didn't get along in ROH. Owens thought he was a genius, Cornette knows he is a genius, and they disagree -- but they can't both be right. There was also the shift from ROH from being a super indy with trashy wrestling, no logical flow, too many high spots, violence against women, etc. and a move towards a more palatable wrestling product -- with a building story throughout a show, etc. I can imagine a lot of talent felt their artistic license being inhibited by that.

In the recent past, Cornette has praised:

* The Briscoe Brothers - thinks they are the best team in wrestling

* The Revival - thinks they are the best thing in the WWE

* American Alpha - basically alluded to Chad Gable being a prodigy; but thinks they can improve (that's worth listening to)

* John Cena - thinks he is the ultimate professional

* The Hardys - hasn't watched it, but thinks they are talented and applauded Matt for reinventing himself (something I don't agree with)

* Kevin Owens - thinks he is good in the ring and can cut a helluva promo

* Sami Zayn - great in the ring, tremendous seller and strong for his frame

* Cesaro - was disappointed the WWE broke up The Kings of Wrestling but is glad to see him get a shot

* Seth Rollins - thinks he is one of the hardest working people in the business

* Davey Richards - thought that his matches with Seth Rollins could be the modern equivalent to Flair/Steamboat (how's that for praise?)

* Jay Lethal - thinks he is such a tremendous talent who can work, promo, and takes his craft seriously

* Tyler Bate - thinks he is very good in the ring, and just thinks it's a shame he looks so young, but that he will grow into himself

* Pete Dunne - loves him as a heel and thinks that as he gets older he will wear it more and more

* Dolph Ziggler - describes him as "the perfect professional wrestler" (something I'm not entirely sure I agree with)

* Christopher Daniels - thinks he is a tremendous talent that has never had the proper shot he deserves

* Samoa Joe - his WrestleMania main event is Brock Lesnar vs. Samoa Joe, which is something I've heard echoed by so many people in response to Brock vs. Joe being announced

* The Young Bucks - as human beings, he says they are "nice kids"

His big gripes are with Kenny Omega's performative development, The Young Bucks using no psychology, Joey Ryan for doing shit with his dick for attention, Vince Russo for being a hack, Sami Zayn for being a pain to deal with in ROH (which is now his WWE gimmick, so maybe there was something to that?), Kevin Owens being a perceived prick in ROH, and Kenny King being a slimeball and lying to his employers.

Because some of those names are held in such high regard by smarks, it becomes the accepted canon. "Cornette is an old man yelling at clouds." I honestly think he is too smart for most wrestlers and wrestling fans, haha, so it's easier to just dismiss him than make a point that actually responds to his. Kenny King recently retorted with homophobic slurs to Corny; Joey Ryan has called Corny a homophobe (coming from the beacon of virtue who gets women to touch his dick and flip around). The Young Bucks are constantly evading the points Cornette makes and just say stuff like "He doesn't yell at us in person," and "Wrestling needs to evolve, brah!". Kenny Omega has just said "That's hilarious. Yeah, I heard he went off on me. That's really funny. Here's a straw-man point to attempt to lower his character, and I think he just wants a rub from The Bucks. He's probably working."

I dunno, it's like the people Jim criticizes can't cognitively comprehend what Cornette actually says. I know most of them aren't probably the sort of people used to constructing arguments and retorting in effective and affluent ways, so it probably does come out as a bit childish when put on the spot, but I just find it funny that people are like "Yeah, good point! Cornette is old!"

Anyone into wrestling could really learn a lot from hearing him talk about the modern product. I keep admitting that I am a mark for him, but I am also someone who changes my mind when faced with evidence (I like to think so anyway). Cornette won me over. I've learnt stuff that I didn't like about the current product from him that I didn't even consciously realize. It's not that I'm impressionable, but it's because he knows so much about what he is talking about, he can identify the stuff most people pick up subconsciously.

I recommended the American Alpha vs. Revival break-down above. Hearing Cornette fly into an analysis of the match was like a physicist at a whiteboard. He broke things down to a quantum level, things that most fans wouldn't even notice, but go towards making the great stuff perfect. It's worth listening to. But he also pointed out stuff with Braun Strowman I hadn't noticed -- how they are actually building him up wrong, despite basically everyone else wetting themselves over his booking.

You're missing out if you just rule everything he says out as archaic.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Shine heat comeback finish. Build heat to the blow off send em home happy. The end,

You make it sound simple, but more and more often there are obvious rules being weirdly and completely broken. Like that Handicap Match with Kalisto & Apollo Crews (the faces) against Dolph Ziggler (the heel). It was just...what the fuck is going on here?

And then on RAW you had some wonky stuff going on with Cesaro & Sheamus and Anderson & Gallows at the time, where they used two referees and yet the heels won clean? It was just basic "too cute" kind of stuff that ignored the point of what you've established in the first place.

[Maluco]

I get what you both are saying, and I do concede that he has probably forgotten more about wrestling than most people learn in their lives. I also concede that wrestling, at its core, is the same.

I still think there is room, however, for both those things to be true and for Cornette to still be abrasive, to still be arrogant and to be resistant to learning what HAS changed in wrestling.

Bill Watts is a brilliant example here. In his day, a top performer and promotor, but as the mid nineties roll around, enough has changed to make him out of touch in the new WCW, his tenure there being a disaster because he was too stubborn and stuck in his ways.

He might have known how to build a match, how to create a star, how to manipulate a crowd, and how to sell tickets in the eighties, but things do change and by the mid-ninties, enough has changed that wrestling had passed Bill Watts by.

I am not saying Cornette is exactly the same, because like you say, his breakdown of psychology and how to work a crowd is extremely informative and he could be very helpful in that light. But wrestling promotions in 2017 would fail in the hands of Jim Cornette, because he already feels like he knows it all and refuses to compromise.

While that admirable in some ways, like you say, it can ultimately be your undoing, as it was for Watts

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think that's a fair sentiment. I don't exactly agree with it, but I do understand where you are coming from too. Bill Watts is a good example of not keeping up, but I also think that Cornette did a better job than what you are implying.

He gave The Thrillseekers their US start. Those guys were pretty "trendy" at the time. Those fucking videos with them on horseback though...

In ROH he was a big proponent of the Seth Rollins/Davey Richards matches. He's been big on getting more of an MMA influence into wrestling. He calls the UFC "the best wrestling company in the world today." When he tears apart The Young Bucks and Joey Ryan, he's tearing apart stuff that is more a devolution than an evolution. He's tearing down a parody of wrestling that tries to highlight how fake and fun and happy it all is, because it's counterproductive to the elements that will sell out arenas. I think it's a very fair and logical point. If you do 11 superkicks a match, how is anybody going to buy it as a finish? It makes you look dumb because you can't kick hard, and it makes anyone who does go down to a superkick look like they've got a glass jaw. You might pop a few drunk dudes who like the sound of someone slapping their leg and already have a built-in appreciation of the superkick as a special move, but how is that going to draw in new fans? You're throwing away your tools and pissing your pants at the same time. And it's, frankly, selfish behaviour to do that just before someone goes out there and tries to win a match with their Superkick, because you've just pissed all over their move.

It's weird, because all the indy geeks claim that wrestling is "art" and needs to evolve, yet all this shit would be like going to a film and then there are eight explosions in the first five minutes. It's white noise and messy and people get bored easily, unless you are already a mark for excess, because you think quantity > quality. The Young Bucks are the "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" of pro-wrestling, except they aren't drawing money.

[Destor]

You make it sound simple, but more and more often there are obvious rules being weirdly and completely broken. Like that Handicap Match with Kalisto & Apollo Crews (the faces) against Dolph Ziggler (the heel). It was just...what the fuck is going on here?

And then on RAW you had some wonky stuff going on with Cesaro & Sheamus and Anderson & Gallows at the time, where they used two referees and yet the heels won clean? It was just basic "too cute" kind of stuff that ignored the point of what you've established in the first place.

Ive always told people that the only rule in wrestling is there are exceptions to every rule except that one

[Mr. Nerfect]

:lol:

[Savio]

Never want to hear Cornette utter another word.

[mike adamle]

Agreed. So annoying and senile.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

He's usually working though on his podcast. Like very clear a lot of his stuff is just putting on a show for his audience. People want him to go on rants. And he often plays the part of overbearing heel.

[mike adamle]

That doesn't make me wanna listen to him any more...

[Moose Knuckle]

He's usually working though on his podcast. Like very clear a lot of his stuff is just putting on a show for his audience. People want him to go on rants. And he often plays the part of overbearing heel.

Russo does the same exact thing with a different audience.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I dunno, Russo is pretty stupid. I actually believe he thinks half the stuff he says.

[Bad News Gertner]

Lol Russo used to have his own dirt sheet. It was horrendous

[#1-norm-fan]

I've watched some of Russo's podcast. It's a lot of "Marks are gay" and "Dave Meltzer makes a living talking about grown men in their underwear! LOL!" And then he rants about how awful WWE's booking is. It's odd.

[#1-norm-fan]

Also, he says "bro" a lot. NOT SURE IF ANYONE ELSE HAS NOTICED THIS.

[Mr. Nerfect]

He's become this hyper-conservative bigot. It's definitely odd that he thinks wrestling fans are gay, but makes his living from wrestling.

[The MAC]

Cornette Responds to Russo's Apology

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/obG0UlK-0ms" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Meanwhile...

Russo doles out an apology to Eric Bishoff

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/duD_sm-wMjk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol, Russo keeping that shitty gimmick up.

[#1-norm-fan]

I stopped watching Russo's when he had to look at his script twice to say "Hello. My name is Vince Russo."

[#1-norm-fan]

Though I have to say, I'm not a fan of Cornette just doing Russo's gimmick. I get what he's going for but I prefer straightforward Cornette. I'd have liked it more if he just came out and said "You fucking dipshit. Do you think a terrible comedy routine is gonna draw attention from the fact that you have no nuts?"

[#1-norm-fan]

My dream feud is Jim Cornette vs. #1-wwf-fan. I don't know who I would mark out for more.

I don't know who I would mark out for more. I think the only way to end it would be a best-of-seven draw to show that we're equals. Either that or don't book the fucking feud.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't know who I would mark out for more. I think the only way to end it would be a best-of-seven draw to show that we're equals. Either that or don't book the fucking feud.

I'd put you over Rock 'n' Roll beating the Midnight in Smoky Mountain style. Cornette begrudging admits you are the better man in a moment of odd babyface honesty from him.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I stopped watching Russo's when he had to look at his script twice to say "Hello. My name is Vince Russo."

Oh god. I haven't watched it, so thank you for sharing that gem.

[Bad News Gertner]

I'm just waiting for Cornette finds out where Russo lives and blasting him

[Simple Fan]

I'm just waiting for Cornette finds out where Russo lives and blasting him

What? Have you been drinking?

[RP]

I dont like Russo getting shit on like this.

[James Steele]

I think this is all a work that'll lead to a mega round table live show to shill their podcasts during SummerSlam or WrestleMania weekend. Bischoff, Cornette, Russo, and Pritchard doing a live show together means they could charge stupid ticket fees in a smark town like NYC and probably make a bunch of money on streaming it. They'd sell out Hammerstein Ballroom probably. Russo makes my ears bleed though. Cornette is fucking hilarious and working the hell out of his gimmick.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Cyrus and Prichard are also total worker carnies on their podcasts.

[erickman]

well hell russo sent out a restraining order on cornette thought he would have done that years ago now no debate

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol, Russo got a restraining order against someone who doesn't want to be anywhere near him, even for money.

[#1-norm-fan]

HAH!

[#1-norm-fan]

What a pussy. This is more of a bitch move than Norman Smiley backing out of our fight.

[drave]

You essentially retired that guy eh?

[Emperor Smeat]

Cornette ended up apologizing for the situation between him and Russo escalating into the restraining order.

Never meant this feud to be anything besides a big joke nor wanted Russo to actually feel scared. Same for feeling bad over the possibility Russo is selling his house because of this situation.

Also got a bit worried about the amount of personal info about Russo was being sent in by fans.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BFNIvC7iZ9Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Zeeboe]

Cornette is a bully.

[Ultra Mantis]

Cornette exposing the business with this phony shit, probably should be banned from the internet forever for embarrassing the podcast business. Cut his mic cords, cut his children's mic cords. If Cornette was podcasting 40 years ago they'd have smashed his monitor with a baseball bat and sent his hard drive to the FBI. Disgraceful.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol, he wasn't podcasting 40 years ago.

[Mr. Nerfect]

What a pussy. This is more of a bitch move than Norman Smiley backing out of our fight.

Yeah, it's not a very dignified move. Especially considering he knows there is nothing to legitimately fear from Cornette.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Cornette ended up apologizing for the situation between him and Russo escalating into the restraining order.

Never meant this feud to be anything besides a big joke nor wanted Russo to actually feel scared. Same for feeling bad over the possibility Russo is selling his house because of this situation.

Also got a bit worried about the amount of personal info about Russo was being sent in by fans.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BFNIvC7iZ9Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I get what Cornette is going for here, and I think taking a nicer tone and saying "Sorry for stressing you," and taking responsibility for certain fans who don't get shit-talking and could potentially take things too far -- given his hatred for Donald Trump and what he stirs up in people -- but I'm not a fan of the "I admitted defeat" in the sarcastic tone.

He gets more digs in as it goes along. It actually gets quite brilliant. But yeah, Russo is a cunt. Throwing shade at people and then getting scared when they call you out? But the fans having listings of his real estate and stuff is just creepy, and I can imagine Cornette legitimately feeling bad about that.

[#1-norm-fan]

Russo has said multiple times that he thinks Cornette's hatred for him is just a gimmick.

Now he has a restraining order against him.

MAARRRRRRK!

[Mr. Nerfect]

If he's a mark wrestling fan, does that make him gay?

[Ultra Mantis]

Lol, he wasn't podcasting 40 years ago.

You can tell. He clearly doesn't respect those that have podcasted before him with all this flippy floppy bullshit. Who trained this kid? Killing the business. Fuck.

[Zeeboe]

Just needed to type that I'm a Christian, I voted for President Trump and I know wrestling is a fake sport.

[drave]

Russo screwed Russo

[Nicky Fives]

Russo is an idiot.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm pretty sure I got into a debate about Russo's booking with Russo himself on another forum. The poster had signed up only in the wake of this Cornette stuff, and was obsessed with all the stuff said about Russo. Probably not, but I'm going to tell myself that, haha.

[Mr. Nerfect]

There are a lot of Russo myths that need to be busted. Whether to be contrarian or just because they grew up in the Attitude era, and believe the Russo-propelled idea that he had a lot to do with the WWF's ultimate success and turn-around, people tend to make absolutely rubbish defenses of him.

So many people lately have been telling me that WCW PPV tanking under Russo doesn't matter, because he was only hired to do TV. They also say stuff like Russo saved WCW's ratings in 1999 (in actuality, he didn't even increase them beyond the average established under Nash or the yearly average), and believe the Russo line about the censors holding him back (yes, because what WCW needed during Russo's stint was more swearing and more abortion angles).

What's your favorite Russo myth?

[Emperor Smeat]

The Cornette-Russo feud took another twist recently since Cornette is going to start selling autograph copies of his restraining order as a way to raise funds for a children's charity called WHAS Crusade for Children.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yPDAvR0S-VE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I will say, the ONE decent booking thing Russo did was that he booked mid card guys to actually mean something in the attitude era. and by that I mean D'Lo Brown. That's it. That's the only good thing he ever did.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Did Cornette just twist Russo's exploitative "we'll do it for charity, bro" attempts to get Corny into a debate with him into a way to legitimately raise money for children off Russo's back? Cornette is still a master worker.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I will say, the ONE decent booking thing Russo did was that he booked mid card guys to actually mean something in the attitude era. and by that I mean D'Lo Brown. That's it. That's the only good thing he ever did.

I'm glad you specified D'Lo Brown. The thing is, people often cite this quality of Russo's as a good one, but if everybody is doing something "important," then what is truly important? It took me a long while to come down off the idea that angles need to always be happening and guys always need to be doing something in order to stay relevant.

Cornette gave D'Lo his break in Smoky Mountain, so I credit Corny for D'Lo more anyway.