What are peoples' thoughts on this...

[Maluco]

Off NoDQ...



During a recent interview, Roman Reigns was asked about a possible heel turn and Reigns commented on why he doesn't think that would be a good idea:

"Whatever we've been doing, it seems to be working. It continues to have loud reactions. Nobody has been to more wrestling shows than me, you know what I mean? I watch every show. I understand reactions. You can be as informed within the wrestling community and the internet as you want but there's one thing that I know and that's listening to what kind of reactions are happening."

"One thing I like about my situation, I think if I were to commit to one (role) 'I'm a bad guy now, I'm pissed and I'm just gonna try to take everybody' then it's just only one (reaction) like, 'boo.' But when I'm out there, there's all kinds of noise. There's all kinds of chants. It's pandemonium. I like a mixed reaction. I like people competing as to which is going to be louder, the boos or the cheers. I just want to bring out the most in our fans, give them an opportunity to rage or to fulfill themselves with joy. They spend their hard-earned money, I want them to have a phenomenal experience."


Does he have a point? Is it really the only thing that matters? Is this a personal opinion or a reflection of what the top brass believe?

Thought it would be interesting to have a thread about it and discuss reactions in wrestling as a whole. A face morphed from Bruno to Hogan to Austin and since then, it's been very hard for a top face to get a pure face pop. It has been mixed since Cena.

Is it a sign of horrendous booking or is it becoming harder and harder to book marketable faces in wrestling that can cover every age gap?

[Maluco]

I keep thinking of what happened with Daniel Bryan and it makes me believe that it is their ineptitude and refusal to push who fans can get behind, but then there are obviously circumstances behind the scenes.

If they had gone full steam ahead with Bryan, he was finished a year or two later...

[#1-norm-fan]

It actually started before Cena. The Rock was getting shit on as a face when he was winding down his full-time career, too. After the Monday night wars they just forgot how to build babyfaces and now this whole "Well, at least people are reacting!" is a cop-out so they can give themselves an excuse not to try. There is a such thing as bad heat. There's a reason fewer and fewer people have cared about wrestling consistently over the past 15 years. Faces getting booed because they're shitty characters is not a good thing.

[drave]

"I'm not a good guy, I'm not a bad guy, I'm just THE guy" is the worst catch phrase-ish thing ever.

[DAMN iNATOR]

I'm personally not really nuts for the whole "This is MY yard!" catchphrase either. I mean sure, it's succinct and it's meant to make a powerful impression like "DAMN, this guy's a fucking badass!" but from a guy like Roman it just comes off as a megalomaniacal saying from a guy who isn't yet a full-time main eventer, isn't the face of the company and hasn't gained acceptance from the fans as either of those things. He comes across, IMHO, as a wannabe badass, and at that, one whom I feel it would do a world of good to turn heel and keep using the catchphrase while wrecking shop and just doing whatever the fiuck he pleases to whomever and/or whatever he wants, whenever he wants to do so. Until then, I can't really ever see him being successful to the same degree as someone like Cena or any of the other great main eventers in wrestling history.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

He's obviously not going to say "They should make me a bad guy" if they don't want him to be a bad guy. That would be career suicide. He'd be jobbing to Curt Hawkins.

[Emperor Smeat]

He basically gave the Cena excuse for reactions even though he's somewhat right about it. Cena said in countless interviews about he rather see a vocal crowd even if they are against him than no or limited reactions since at least it means the crowd is active for his stuff.

Biggest difference between the two was Cena at least had a heel run that was both very popular and very helpful for his development into a big star. Reigns right now is like puffy hair era Rock in terms of how stunted his development as a big star has been and all because Vince is too stubborn to try a big solo heel run to give him the character development needed.

[Mr. Nerfect]

"As long as people are doing something -- even if it's turning off our television and cancelling their Network subscriptions -- it is a good thing."

[XL]

Reigns was great in NXT as a LeBron James style "franchise player", really great fit for his look and natural charisma. I'd like to see that back, but I doubt we will.

On the subject, it is a cop out but they've boxed themselves into a corner (same deal with Cena) where they have a big portion of the audience calling for a heel turn, so when/if it happens it'll result in a positive reaction from that vocal portion of the crowd, and all we've done is flip the fan reaction around.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah, Reigns is basically a heel now because they're trying to push him as a face. If they turned him heel, he'd be cool almost instantly. Which is why they should probably turn him if they want him to be the face of the company.

[Simple Fan]

I think he's drinking the kool aid that Vince is pouring him. He does get the loudest reactions but they are not the intended reaction they want. He's different from Cena as Cena can actually turn some boos into cheers simply by grabbing a microphone. Any time Roman has a mic its usually bad and fans just dont want to hear it so they boo. I think where Reigns is at right now is about as heel as he's going to get. His character is not that of a face except he wont sell out basically.

If he turns heel will people like him? That might be the problem there as they'd rather have a face that gets booed than a heel that gets cheers but it doesn't seem to stop them with who ever Reigns is working with. Only way he could go heel and still be hated is by joining up with HHH and Stephanie I believe but like I said thats the only part of his character keeping him a face at the moment.

[#1-norm-fan]

I think people are over-estimating the love he would get as a heel. He'd get face pops when he turned and then for a bit after. Once the shock wears off and he's settled in and starts being booked like the typical paint-by-numbers heel, he'd get the same reaction most heels who aren't IWC darlings get.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think people are over-estimating the love he would get as a heel. He'd get face pops when he turned and then for a bit after. Once he's settled in and starts being booked like the typical paint-by-numbers heel, he'd get the same reaction most heels who aren't IWC darlings get.

Ha, fair point. I think that's more of a reason to turn him then. It at least pops the joint back into place, and you can at least make a babyface against him.

[Stickman]

Yeah, Reigns is basically a heel now because they're trying to push him as a face. If they turned him heel, he'd be cool almost instantly. Which is why they should probably turn him if they want him to be the face of the company.

I don't think he'd be cool right away. I think the guy gets booed because a)he is shoved down our throats, b) he's not that good. He comes off entitled and lazy plus he isn't anything special in the ring. Turning heel isn't going to make those people booing cheer, but it will help develop a personality over time. Reigns is so bland and boring, he is almost like Randy Orton.

[Destor]

He's absolutely right and I've been saying it for atleast a year

[Evil Vito]

I think the only way to truly get people behind Roman would be a Shield reunion and actually keeping them all together for the rest of their careers. Let Roman be the no-nonsense shit kicker that he was then. That would help get people re-invested in Ambrose too.

They don't have to only work as a stable (although getting those amazing 6-man tag matches back would be lovely) - they can obviously do solo stuff and even wrestle each other if needed. But just let them be The Shield and the fans will eat it up.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

He's absolutely right and I've been saying it for atleast a year

Mark

[Destor]

Opposite

[Destor]

YOU GUYS ARE GETTING WORKED YO

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't know. Sounds like Destor's drinking WWE's Kool-Aid.

[Destor]

*sigh*

[#1-norm-fan]

The face of your company getting massive face pops is clearly the most desirable option. I think even that dipshit CyNick (RIP) had to admit that.

WWE trying to make people believe that mixed reactions are for the best is basically them trying to cover up for their inability to make a top face who is actually over by making it seem like the fact that people hate him so much is just part of some genius, cutting edge booking. It's not. It's just what happens as a result of shitty booking.

[Maluco]

I get what you are saying Destor, but is people like me losing interest and not watching, really being worked?

At what point does it stop being a work to generate interest and when does it start being them shooting themselves in the foot?

Also, for those on the other side, how do you book a top face in 2017?

I feel like the answer is, to let it be organic. Austin was an organic choice they let happen because they were in a desperate situation.

Is "let the masses choose" correct? Or is that a recipe for chaos?

[Destor]

I get what you are saying Destor, but is people like me losing interest and not watching, really being worked?

At what point does it stop being a work to generate interest and when does it start being them shooting themselves in the foot?

Also, for those on the other side, how do you book a top face in 2017?

I feel like the answer is, to let it be organic. Austin was an organic choice they let happen because they were in a desperate situation.

Is "let the masses choose" correct? Or is that a recipe for chaos?
Its the only option. While the following statement will be met with rejection it is what happend: The crowd (IE all of you) chose Reigns. After that office back them they turned on him. It was only cool to like reigns until our parents liked him too. Nothing about him changed, they turned on him because they listended to their audience. They'll do the same to the next guy just like they did Cena before him.


Wrestling fans are douchey hipsters.

[#1-norm-fan]

If by "let the masses choose", you mean base it solely on crowd reactions, then yes, I'd say that's a recipe for disaster. There has to be come foresight involved. There isn't just one way to book a top face.

I mentioned earlier how The Rock was getting shit on as a face when he was winding down as a full-timer. Over-exposure and bad booking can play a part in fucking it up. If a guys' character is that he's a big shit-talker and he constantly fails to back it up, it makes his character unlikable. Not a good thing for a top face. They did that CONSTANTLY with The Rock. He jobbed left and right in a way that Hogan and Austin before him rarely ever did. And his character, despite being arguably the most charismatic guy wrestling has ever seen, stopped working as a top face.

Same happened with Cena. I think the "face in peril" works for a little guy like Daniel Bryan. They try to use the same template for every face though and it's just really dumb. Different guys with different body types and different personalities need to be booked differently.

[#1-norm-fan]

Its the only option. While the following statement will be met with rejection it is what happend: The crowd (IE all of you) chose Reigns. After that office back them they turned on him. It was only cool to like reigns until our parents liked him too. Nothing about him changed, they turned on him because they listended to their audience. They'll do the same to the next guy just like they did Cena before him.


Wrestling fans are douchey hipsters.

... You know that part in bold is not true...

[Destor]

I believe it to be true yes.

[#1-norm-fan]

Well, first off, he left The Shield. Ambrose and Rollins were there as his mouthpiece and to let him just be the "muscle" and not get over-exposed. You don't think that was one major change?

[Destor]

I do not.

[#1-norm-fan]

You don't see how people could have loved him as one-third of The Shield with Ambrose and Rollins and then not cared for him as a top guy having to work entire matches all on his own and cut his own promos other than "the company started backing him"?

[KIRA]

It's everything about him. The Shield split up anh he is still basically in The Shield
Same look and same music hell for a while he had the same entrance.

He's.....decent in the ring but hes mostly about Superman punches

He gets destroyed by Braun and it does not effect him or his ability to wi matches.

Not only James Ellsworth is more over than Roman Reigns(as a face and a heel) he is MILES ahead of him on the mic.

They claim its okay as long as people react to him but they make an effort to make excuses for the boos and even go so far as to make them less audible.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

They also just booked him badly. Just cuz the machine is behind you doesnt mean it needs to be blatant. His push was akin to Diesels failed push. Fans liked him because he was an asskicker not because he overcomes the odds.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I will argue he is a main event talent. He is just a badly written, poorly booked main event talent.

[drave]

Even on the highlights for PPV's, I take a piss break when it comes to him speaking. There is just nothing interesting about him.

I only carry the network sub b/c my in-laws and son still eat up the programming each week. They enjoy watching PPV's and the product.

"Believe that, good/bad/the guy, and my yard" are so fucking lame and ZzzZZZzzzzzZZZZzzz.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Imo the excuse destor is making is the cop out most wrestlers make for the E who wanna kiss vinces ass so they may get a job down the line or protect their job.

Fans arent THAT hard to please. But if you give them lame, inorganic bullshit, they wont buy it. The Shield while not world champions were pushed very hard and treated like a big deal. It was apparent early that they were being protected, but people liked them because they were delivering. They were a violent pack of dogs who talked only when nec. And not about gaga and bullshit. They were focused and felt real. And they werent underdogs, they were asskickers.

[#1-norm-fan]

Fans liked him because he was an asskicker not because he overcomes the odds.

YES. I mean... there's also, the fact that he never had to touch a mic or work a full match and expose huge flaws in those areas... but his horrible, lazy, paint-by-numbers-babyface booking as a singles star is also a HUGE part of it. The idea that NOTHING CHANGED and people just decided to start hating him simply because the company pushed him as "the guy" is just silly. Between that idea and the idea that people hating him as a face is actually a good thing, WWE is trying REALLY hard to get this Kool-Aid over that prevents them from actually having to book compelling characters ever again.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Most things about wwe are buzzwords and nobody on the talent roster from wrestlers to personalities to commentators aside from maybe Kevin Owens and Chris Jericho talk like real people talk. Roman falls into this category. Its part of why he doesnt get cheered. For such a marketing based company youd think theyd know the one no no of good marketing is inauthentic shitty buzzwords and unnatural dialogue with your target.

[#1-norm-fan]

One reason why scripted promos are arguably the worst thing to happen to wrestling.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Well i mean i wont damn scripted promos completely. Certain guys could obvs just use bullet points but we wouldnt complain about scripting if the writers could y'know... Actually fucking write.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Or if some wrestlers took time to add more input

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't think wrestling works with scripted promos. There's too many guys with too many personalities that need to get through. I mean... it's possible that there are writers who could write from everyone's point of view and have it all come off as genuine and unique to each individual up and down the roster. But then if they could do that, they probably wouldn't be writing for a wrestling show.

Also, wrestlers aren't exactly naturals at acting. It's easier to come off as believable and "human" when you're not reciting a script.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I think also the promo segs are stupid long. Nobody needs to talk for 20 fucking minutes. 5 will do.

[Simple Fan]

Also, for those on the other side, how do you book a top face in 2017?

See NJPW and Okada.

[Stickman]

Ambrose was the most interesting guy in the Shield followed by Rollins followed by Reigns. To think RR was the guy of the Shield is retarded.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Let the faces not say too much, earn the fans respect by wrestling in wars with non fucky finishes. And when they do speak it should mean something.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And dont make every face on the roster look lile a fucking tool by cutting their nuts off or on the other side of the coin forcing them down peoples throats

[Sepholio]

I personally think a heel turn for Reigns would fail just as miserably as his current face run. People don't want him to be a heel, they don't see him as a heel, that's not why they are booing him. They boo him because he is boring and minimally talented, sucks on the mic, and is being shoved down our throats anyways. There's a distinct difference there but I'm not surprised Roman doesn't see it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Roman Reigns has got a damn motor in him. This idea that he's not talented is a bit extreme. The guy has got all the in-ring tools. He doesn't seem to have any instincts as a babyface though and his charisma isn't leading man extroverted charisma. At least not in this role.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah, I think he's a goodlooking guy who as you pointed out Noid, has a motor. But he's dark and brooding, he's not necessarily the guy who should be the smartest guy in the room all the time. Once again, let him use his low key wry wit every once in a while, when he so chooses to speak, which should be rarely.

They should look at how they booked Diesel when he lost to Bret Hart going all the way to his full on heel turn. Just let him be a face, but a fucking badass.

[drave]

http://www.craveonline.com/assets/mandatory/legacy/2016/05/man_file_1067214_08.jpg

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah, I think he's a goodlooking guy who as you pointed out Noid, has a motor. But he's dark and brooding, he's not necessarily the guy who should be the smartest guy in the room all the time. Once again, let him use his low key wry wit every once in a while, when he so chooses to speak, which should be rarely.

They should look at how they booked Diesel when he lost to Bret Hart going all the way to his full on heel turn. Just let him be a face, but a fucking badass.

Oh, I agree. The thing is, I don't know if there is a way to that path now without a heel turn first.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Well the path is easy
Have him actually address the fact that they shit on him after he wrestles a war with Strowman. Have him actually act like the audience reaction exists and interact with it, without force feeding him god awful catchphrases for Michael Cole to fail to get over. And dont keep stacking the odds against him. Keep his feuds straight up and avoid the gaga finishes. If he wrestles in wars and he isnt booked as a "wwe superstar" but a dude who takes no prisoners, he will get over. I mean... They either go ott in trying to make him look like superman or he looks like a punk bitch. Like Strowman tipping over the ambulance was entertaining in a ridiculous way but unnecessary and it just made Roman look like a loser.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Imo for Roman, less is more

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Even still he could be a dick to the fans like he was after mania but the rest of the time be a babyface. Save dudes from beatdowns, win matches clean etc.

[Juan]

The biggest problem with Reigns, since day one of his solo push, has been the way he has been booked. Terrible decision after terrible decision. That is my only gripe with Reigns at this point. The guy is a good worker and obviously busts his ass, but personally, it's hard to get behind a guy who constantly gets booed so blatantly bad

[Big Vic]

I don't know. Sounds like Destor's drinking WWE's Kool-Aid.

Destor is an anagram for CyNick! :eek:

[Juan]

Reigns was a beast in The Shield and was booked as so, but the minute they decided they were gonna push Reigns to the moon, regardless of what else was going on, and despite who may have been more "deserving" it all went down hill. They could have easily worked with it and went with the flow and maybe even gotten a great Reigns/Bryan feud out if it, but they (Vince) were dead set on Reigns. Terrible booking at the end of the day

[XL]

Where does this "he was the fans choice" come from?

He was popular as part of The Shield, and he got reaction that one year in the Rumble when it became clear he was the only threat to a face Batista win that the fans didn't want to see. Beyond that?

[Fignuts]

Yeah, pretty sure the initial heat towards reigns was because the fans chose Daniel Bryan, but wwe went with Reigns.

[Fignuts]

Also, I agree with Fan on scripted promos being a blight on the company. It adds to the processed, homogenized feeling that I mentioned in the other thread.

You can see a lot of charisma and personality occasionally peeking out from Reigns, but its locked behind this horribly scripted, boring character.

[KIRA]

Roman Reigns has got a damn motor in him. This idea that he's not talented is a bit extreme. The guy has got all the in-ring tools. He doesn't seem to have any instincts as a babyface though and his charisma isn't leading man extroverted charisma. At least not in this role.

I think you nailed it he does come across as something of an introvert.
They can really play to that instead of him being this talky babyface let him be mostly quiet occasionally snarky.He can be a dick to fans and still be a face hes just more or less concerned with his own interests (and outside of Ambrose) doesn't really care too much for other competitors.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Well the path is easy
Have him actually address the fact that they shit on him after he wrestles a war with Strowman. Have him actually act like the audience reaction exists and interact with it, without force feeding him god awful catchphrases for Michael Cole to fail to get over. And dont keep stacking the odds against him. Keep his feuds straight up and avoid the gaga finishes. If he wrestles in wars and he isnt booked as a "wwe superstar" but a dude who takes no prisoners, he will get over. I mean... They either go ott in trying to make him look like superman or he looks like a punk bitch. Like Strowman tipping over the ambulance was entertaining in a ridiculous way but unnecessary and it just made Roman look like a loser.

Get what you're saying, and it's good, but I wonder if they've already crossed a certain line with Reigns at this point. Look at Cena still getting booed despite the shift away from SuperCena from 2014 onwards.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Cena is still a big cornball tho

[Mr. Nerfect]

And yeah, Reigns was never my choice. When he got pushed to the front of The Shield, I cringed, because it completely changed their dynamic. He also intruded on the Bryan love affair. He also wasn't anywhere near ready at that point in time, and it's arguable he isn't now. He will be one day, but he may not be as popular as he could be, due to that stigma they have established around him. And it's going to have diminishing returns each time they jam someone into this Cena spot.

I'd be looking at Roman Reigns as more an Undertaker type than your face of the company type.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Cena is still a big cornball tho

Fair point. I think he's crossed this point where it's endearing now. He's done the movies and we all know what a genuine chap he is and how he can play a dick. I don't feel the need to see him turn heel and destroyed with the emphasis being removed from him. I do think people just boo him out of habit now, but those habits are hard to break. See: "What?!"