REHASHING AN OLD ARGUMENT: Who would you rather have on your roster right now?

[Anybody Thrilla]

John Morrison or The Miz?

I'm sure we all remember how we used to feel about this, but how do we feel now?

I'm kinda on the fence, but leaning Miz.

[GD]

The Miz. He was destined to fail from the beginning but he persisted and became the WWE Champion, main-evented Wrestlemania and pinned John Cena. Over the years, he has managed to keep himself relevant and become one of the most prominent Intercontinental Champions of this decade.

[TSI]

The Miz. That man is pro. He gets today's wrestling completely.

[Swiss Ultimate]

STILL LOVE MIZ.

[Cool King]

The Miz.

Always The Miz.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I actually always liked The Miz and I still do, but back when The In Crowd was a team (one of my favorite teams ever), I thought for sure Morrison would be the Michaels to Miz's Jannetty.

[Big Vic]

Thought so too until after the split.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I do enjoy Morrison in the ring quite a bit, still. The Johnny Mundo Lucha Underground run was tight as fuck.

[Fignuts]

Miz is one of the best heels in the business today. Morrison can do some cool athletic stuff.

Not even a contest, tbh.

[Emperor Smeat]

Miz.

Morrison in Lucha Underground is pretty similar to the Miz in terms of being the guy everyone hates regardless who is his opponent but lacking in great mic skills.

[Maluco]

It's a hard one. My instinct says The Miz. A great promo, solid worker, could easily be top heel in any wrestler company. Seems like a no brainer.

But Morrison is insanely skilled as an athlete...and he is marketable. He is a good looking guy and looks like a rock star. He has also developed a lot more personality since leaving, judging by his film roles and him branching out a bit.

For a new company, you could easily be talking about a top heel and a top face if you had both.

Forced to choose, I would pick Miz because wrestling is a talking business and he sold me on him and Cena wrestling with their wives at Mania.

[Bad News Gertner]

Miz is probably the best true heel the company has had in a decade

[Destor]

His matches are an absolute bore but there's a lot of mileage in his story telling on the mic. Woulda made a great manager

[XL]

Miz.

Good heel, great promo, fantastic media/brand ambassador, room to extend career in a managerial/commentator role, and you get the added bonus of Mayrse.

[Lock Jaw]

Miz easily.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Hardcore Parkour

The Miz now, then, always.

[Blonde Moment]

The Miz is the total package

[DaveWadding]

The Miz bores me. Mundo / Morrison for sure.

[Sepholio]

Morrison. Always really liked him/really hated Miz.

Really I just want him for the cool slow-mo shot with his hair blowing in the wind.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Question for the Miz voters...did you always feel that way?

[Mr. Nerfect]

This is tricky. The argument is still basically the same as it was way back when. Morrison is far, far, far better in the ring, has a better look, and has the better overall potential. The Miz is a better talker and gets being a heel, but has a ceiling. I'd take both. As a tag team or a mid-card title program they would both be welcome. I want to go Morrison, because I think him at maximum potential is worth a whole bunch more, but The Miz can be used to springboard a lot of people.

Fuck it, I guess it's Miz. But I'd take Morrison over a lot of the current guys WWE is pushing.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Would you take Morrison over Strowman? Not to derail, just thinking out loud.

[Bad News Gertner]

Question for the Miz voters...did you always feel that way?

Yes because Morrison can't cut promos and that means more to me than in ring ability

[Mr. Nerfect]

Would you take Morrison over Strowman? Not to derail, just thinking out loud.

This is another tough one. I'm not sold on Strowman like others are. I think a bit of decent booking earlier on has gotten people on the dick of the guy, and I'm not sure he's got the longevity as an interest-getter that people think he is. That being said, he is working at the moment. Ratings even seem to respond, in a mild way, to the guy. There's some sort of ironic goofiness in his presentation. There are ways to make him work as a character, even though he does very little for me.

Morrison looks like a star. He can wrestle a lot better. You can probably get more out of optimum use of him than you can Strowman. I dunno. I'd probably try and milk Strowman right now for what I could and then hope that Morrison can carry things on a certain level when that dies off.

[Bad News Gertner]

People forget that Strowman has really only been wrestling for 2 years, which is insane. Give him another couple of years.

[Sixx]

What's the deal with Strowman wearing a goat head? Did they even explain that? Or was this just "Look at me, I'm weeeeeird!"?

[Sixx]

http://data1.ibtimes.co.in/en/full/643227/braun-strowman-wwe.jpg

Wow, he's actually pretty ripped. Thought this was all fat.

[#1-norm-fan]

What's the deal with Strowman wearing a goat head? Did they even explain that? Or was this just "Look at me, I'm weeeeeird!"?

He was a Wyatt. Wyatt's followers wore sheep masks to represent the common people being sheep.

... #MeltzerSheep

[Sixx]

Oh, well. Kinda dumb.

[#1-norm-fan]

Was kinda cool/creepy looking when a bunch of kids dressed in black gowns surrounded the ring wearing sheep masks when he was feuding with Cena though.

[#1-norm-fan]

I wonder where all those kids are now in kayfabe.

[Sixx]

Bray's bedroom?

[GD]

It's a social commentary on the Catholic Church.

[Mr. Nerfect]

People forget that Strowman has really only been wrestling for 2 years, which is insane. Give him another couple of years.

Closer to 3, but a good point. He could get a lot better, but things could also go really wrong too.

[Fignuts]

Question for the Miz voters...did you always feel that way?

Yes, but not to the degree I do today. Miz has always been a natural heel, but he's really come into it in recent years.

Also, I believe he's not that far behind Morrison in in ring ability. He can't do the cool parkour shit, but he's gotten very good at telling a story in his matches, which is more important to me than high spots.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Those Ziggler matches were really good.

[Fignuts]

I would actually be willing to say that Miz is the best heel in the business today, with the exception of Minoru Suzuki.

[DaveWadding]

I'm just wondering if any of the people saying Morrison can't cut a promo have actually seen his work in the last couple years. He's probably the best promo in Lucha Underground and has been for at least the whole 3rd season.

[#1-norm-fan]

I would actually be willing to say that Miz is the best heel in the business today, with the exception of Minoru Suzuki.

"Roman Reigns is the best heel in the business" - Some smartass

[Lock Jaw]

"Roman Reigns is the best heel in the business" - Destor

[Mr. Nerfect]

If Roman Reigns were positioned to go against babyfaces he would be.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The Miz is the best mid-card heel in the business today. I still can't take him seriously. It feels like anyone should be able to beat him. I dunno, I really like him at the IC Title level, but I feel that if he were pushed even just a bit harder, he wouldn't be doing that perfect tightrope walk.

[Lock Jaw]

Question for the Miz voters...did you always feel that way?

I did not. Used to think Morrison was "the star". It wasn't until the team split and The Miz started heating up as a solo heel that I changed my opinion...... I think I made a thread about it.....

[Sixx]

I don't remember, The Miz was in a tag team with Morrison? I thought it was some other dude.

[Lock Jaw]

Here is my thread from 2009: http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?t=91272

[Swiss Ultimate]

The Miz is the best mid-card heel in the business today. I still can't take him seriously. It feels like anyone should be able to beat him. I dunno, I really like him at the IC Title level, but I feel that if he were pushed even just a bit harder, he wouldn't be doing that perfect tightrope walk.

MIZ IS A MORE BELIEVABLE MAIN EVENT HEEL THAN EITHER EDGE OR CHRISTIAN AT LEAST. I NEVER BOUGHT EITHER OF THEM, BUT I TOTALLY SUSPENDED DISBELIEF FOR THE MIZ.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

I'm just wondering if any of the people saying Morrison can't cut a promo have actually seen his work in the last couple years. He's probably the best promo in Lucha Underground and has been for at least the whole 3rd season.

<img src="https://media.giphy.com/media/12w45ho280Tg88/giphy-downsized-large.gif" width="512" style="width: 512px; height: 288px;" data-reactid="21">

With all their movie production stuff we have no idea how many takes he got.

[Fignuts]

I'm just wondering if any of the people saying Morrison can't cut a promo have actually seen his work in the last couple years. He's probably the best promo in Lucha Underground and has been for at least the whole 3rd season.

That's because he speaks English.

[Mr. Nerfect]

For those who want to see it, and I will put this in spoiler tags, I used a framework that is used on another forum to rate wrestlers. I know not everybody will want to see the working, but sometimes it helps to put things out on paper and really see how things stack up. It can also help you work out what you most respond emotionally to or have an aversion to, and identify your biases.

A wrestlers' qualities are split up into Look/Presence, Charisma, Ring Skills and Mic Skills. It feels simplistic, but I suppose drawing power can go into charisma. I've given each an average, but I've also recorded their biggest attributes in relation to their average perceived skill, which I think helps capture what you think about when you imagine that wrestler.

John Morrison:

Look/Presence: Morrison looks like a movie star and he can move like a ninja. I'm going to mark him down for "presence," because he has never really felt like he projects a true star aura. There is room for him to use his look to his advantage more.

8.0

Charisma: This is where I think Morrison takes a step back. I do love the guy, but something about him has always felt a bit wooden in certain roles. I think he's got a charismatic aura away from the business, but you need to be able to turn it on when the cameras are rolling. He's managed to stand out enough over his career though, and people have shown enough investment. I think it's easier to get buy without charisma when you've got a good look though, and I think that has always been the case for Morrison with his abs.

6.5

Ring Skills: Morrison actually wasn't in the business for as long as many people who get only half as good as he gets. Darren Young, for example, got his start in the business before Morrison did. There's been some great work to Morrison's name, and I don't think you can always pin it on his opponent. I don't necessarily think he's a brilliant wrestler or anything, but he manages to tie his spots together into a nice little frame well.

7.5

Mic Skills: Another area where Morrison starts to slip a bit. Some of his stuff has been okay, but others has been pretty dreadful. He's got the mind to be entertaining, but he sometimes has trouble putting it into practice. The guy could lend that mind to good promos, say less, say certain things, and get people into buildings. I am pretty confident in that. That being said, there's just not much evidence for that. I trust him to go out there and say what needs to be said, but I don't think he's going to knock it out of the park or really screw it up, but there is a chance of both. He's right in the middle, in my opinion.

5.0

Average: 6.75

Biggest Attribute Gap: +1.25 (Look)

Biggest Detriment Gap: -1.75 (Mic Skills)

Assessment: John Morrison looks like a god and can move like one. That's what you get him for. It's when you want someone with a larger than life personality to draw people into an arena that you begin to run flat with him.


The Miz:

Look/Presence: He doesn't look threatening at all. Handsome dude with a smug face you want to punch, but it affects his credibility as a fighter.

4.0

Charisma: The dude has been in the business for 13 years now. He's finally got people on board. Let's not pretend this guy has always had people lining up around the corner to see him.

6.0

In-Ring: The lower end of average. Not bad, by any means, but let's not pretend he stands out in any way.

4.0

Mic Skills: The dude can talk. I think he is overrated as a promo, but he can talk, and he seems to get what promos are about, and more and more he's been allowed to point them in the right direction. He'd make a tremendous manager.
8.0

Average: 5.5

Biggest Attribute: +2.5 (Mic Skills)

Biggest Detriment: -1.5 (Look/Presence and Ring Skills)

Assessment: Those who think that The Miz would do much better as a manager than as a wrestler are probably correct. His biggest shining point is, by far, his mic skills, whereas what drags him down is his look and skill inside a ring. Without any sort of threatening charisma, The Miz could lend his mouth to some wrestlers who are lacking in the charisma/mic skills department. You're not getting anything particularly bad with The Miz, but when rating him, it is important to keep in mind just how much better he is at talking than everything else, by almost half the grid.


Comparison:

Look/Presence: Not much else to say other than Morrison smokes Miz in this category.

Charisma: Some will say that I've been unfair giving the nod to Morrison here. It's really only a 5% advantage, and I'd have you think about to how successful their babyface runs were. It is much of a muchness here, and charisma is often filtered through other qualities -- some people are charismatic because you find their appearance hypnotizing, and others captivate you with speeches. Neither has really made a big dent to the WWE's bottom-line as far as I know, so I'm not as interested in this section.

In-Ring: Morrison again smokes Miz. I don't think anyone would really debate this too much. Morrison has had great matches, whereas Miz is lucky if he gets a "good" one with a great talent.

Mic Skills: And this is where Miz smokes Morrison without much debate. Not too much else to say on that particular point.

Biggest Difference: 4.0 in terms of look. This might seem exaggerated. I'd say that Miz has really worked on his "presence" as a star, so maybe the gap is narrower now in this area than it was. But if you put the two standing against each other in a ring, I know which one I am instantly going to be much more interested in. Dismissing this, you can then go to next biggest gap.

Biggest Attribute: The Miz's mic skills. He not only has a 3.0 advantage over Morrison, but a 2.5 average over himself. I think that's why when thinking about this, The Miz's mic skills have people saying they would take him -- it's easily the most notable talent being discussed.

Biggest Detriment: John Morrison's mic skills. So, in addition to The Miz being such a great talker, you've got Morrison who is notably let down in this department more so than either man in any other area. I do think he sits higher in the promo department than Miz does in terms of ring skills, but when you compare the two, it's easy to put emphasis on the strengths of Miz as a talker and the weakness of Morrison as a talker, even if it isn't objectively the weakest quality of either man (those being Miz's look and ring skills -- or possibly just his ring skills if you think I'm being too harsh).

So, my final assessment is that I think that if you break it down, while they aren't that far apart from each other in the grand annals of history, Morrison is probably still objectively "better" overall. If you put emphasis on ring skills and look, you're probably going to prefer Morrison (and that's an odd combo to have, if you really think about it), whereas Miz is going to hook those who prefer consistently better promos. If they were one wrestler, they'd probably be pretty fucking perfect, and it's actually a hard comparison to make, because you want to have good in-ring workers, people who look like stars, and people who can talk. I'd probably like to have both a Morrison and a Miz on my roster, and they don't really occupy the same roster space. A more fair comparison would probably be pitting Morrison against a Seth Rollins and Miz against a modern day Chris Jericho or even Kevin Owens.

What Miz brings is really unique though. Which is odd, because he's objectively pretty average in some areas that you kind of don't want a guy to be average in, but those help him stand out. I do think that those things can be amplified to generate real heat in a modern era, where people associate ring skills with "deserving" great things which makes it harder to stay heel. He might look pretty non-threatening, but then he's got Maryse -- who deserves a lot of credit for how effective Miz is. She enhances so much that is lacking from The Miz's act, which turns those detriments into weird sorts of strengths.

I can totally understand why people are saying Miz.

[Mr. Nerfect]

And, for those who are interested, here is my break-down of Braun:


Look/Presence: Braun has got a weird dynamic going on. He is both simultaneously threatening and goofy. Remember when he looked like a giant Eugene in The Wyatt Family? He's managed to shed that with presence and slight tweaks to his look. I think his name is terrible, and that is part of his aesthetic. I think the parts that don't work, like with Miz's partnership with Maryse, are kind of weird strengths in a time where the fanbase cannot take the product completely seriously. I have a feeling that during the Attitude era, Austin is refusing to work with a dude that calls himself "Braun Strowman."

7.5

Charisma: A lot of people seem to be drawn to the Braun. I am not so much, but you have to look at what others do in this situation. The internet is in love with him, and he gets good live reactions. Ratings even seem to mildly react to him. Maybe it is because everything else is booked so shit, but for whatever reason, stuff seems to be working around this guy.

7.0

Ring Skills: There are some that think this guy is great. I am yet to see it. He's been involved in some fun brawls, but a lot of them involve him legitimately throwing shit at people's heads and genuinely risking the safety of guys he legitimately tosses over the top rope. It's fun, I get it, but I'm yet to see this guy really put on classics using the traditional tools of pro-wrestling. He's been breast-fed and protected. More power to him, but as his ring skill is exposed, that charisma might drop in future evaluations. I'm going average, because I don't think that's an offensive score at all. He's there. He does his job. If he's in there with people who matter, his work matters. If not, it doesn't.

5.0

Mic Skills: I actually like Strowman on the mic. I think his gruff voice is scarier than his appearance. He delivers lines with potency, from what I've heard, and you don't hear much about him embarrassing himself. He says he wants to kill people and it is generally received as such. There may not be a big body of great promo work, but there doesn't need to be.

7.0

Average: 6.625

Biggest Attribute: +0.875 (Look/Presence)

Biggest Detriment: -1.625 (Ring Skills)

Assessment: Braun Strowman is a big dude who captures the imagination enough and sells it with a grizzly voice. He's not offensive in the ring to effect people's enjoyment of him, and those who aren't expecting much might be genuinely surprised. A lot of guys with his size will often suck a lot more. He's also fairly consistently high across the board, which helps make him digestible, with his most noteworthy spike being that look of his, and his biggest detriment being his still relative "just thereness" in the ring.
By writing this out, I can identify what might hold me back on Braun -- he's got more of a noticable flaw, from my perspective, than a noticable strength. The Miz is fairly consistently average beyond his mic skills, but Strowman is fairly consistently "quite good" beyond his ring skills, which stands out to me. Writing this all down has helped me get more behind the things about Strowman that do work, almost instantly. It can be a good process for some.

Also, if Strowman continues to get better and better in the ring, and does work out ways to deliver better promos, and develops more of a presence, all whilst tweaking that look -- his charisma will probably go up too. There are definitely very big paws there.


So when it comes to Morrison vs. Strowman, I do think that Morrison is still incrementally better than Strowman, and it's noticeable especially in the bell-to-bell, but long-term vision will probably favor Strowman.

[Sting Fan]

Morrison but tbh both normally have me change the channel. Miz annoys me and Morrison screams jobber to me.

[DaveWadding]

<img src="https://media.giphy.com/media/12w45ho280Tg88/giphy-downsized-large.gif" width="512" style="width: 512px; height: 288px;" data-reactid="21">

With all their movie production stuff we have no idea how many takes he got.

Talk to me about it when you've actually watched the show instead of crying about simulated man on woman violence.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And, for those who are interested, here is my break-down of Braun:


Look/Presence: Braun has got a weird dynamic going on. He is both simultaneously threatening and goofy. Remember when he looked like a giant Eugene in The Wyatt Family? He's managed to shed that with presence and slight tweaks to his look. I think his name is terrible, and that is part of his aesthetic. I think the parts that don't work, like with Miz's partnership with Maryse, are kind of weird strengths in a time where the fanbase cannot take the product completely seriously. I have a feeling that during the Attitude era, Austin is refusing to work with a dude that calls himself "Braun Strowman" and comes off like he does a lot of the time.

7.5





:roll:

[Swiss Ultimate]

Talk to me about it when you've actually watched the show instead of crying about simulated man on woman violence.

I LOVE MORRISON AND LUCHA UNDERGROUND.

I THINK MIZ WOULD DO WELL THERE, ACTUALLY.

[Mr. Nerfect]

:roll:

:lol: Great point, Dale. #DaleFail

[Ruien]

Lol. Noid, Braun is so fucking over, is everything you want as a big man, and has charisma. So yea, he's just average. Okay

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

350 pounds of rock solid muscle and looks like he could literally tear limbs from sockets. People believe he can go toe-to-toe with Brock (suspension of disbelief of course). If you're going to be mr. hyper critical guy at least be reasonable.

You can dislike the rest of his game, but a 7.5 in the look department for a guy who one of the most over guys in the company based on his look is just kind of retarded.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Nailz was such a big star because of his look, right? Nathan Jones did so well because of his look. Billy Gunn looked like such a star. Brian Lee could be made up to look a lot like Undertaker. That would be automatically be successful right? Braun Strowman looks like a giant Eugene, and his name is literally meant to invoke the idea of "big dumb dude whose last name sounds like strongman." I'm sure he would have been packaged differently back in the day, but he might have also ended up in DOA doing nothing.

And, as I've stated, I think the reason people flock to him is because of how he's been booked. Look at how no one gave a shit about him when he first showed up. He didn't suddenly grow a whole bunch.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol. Noid, Braun is so fucking over, is everything you want as a big man, and has charisma. So yea, he's just average. Okay

He's so fucking over that No Mercy still hasn't sold out. Is everything I want in a big man? Nope. Has charisma? I gave him 7/10. That's 70% on the charisma scale for a dude who can't sell out a PPV against Brock Lesnar. I think that's more than a fair score. Would you like me to put him up there with the likes of The Rock, Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair? If anything, I've overrated Braun in charisma and mic skills. I maybe uncut him in terms of ring work. I don't think so though -- not when you put him in the grand scheme of things and consider just how good 7 and 8 out of 10 would be. Braun is not that good.

And yeah, I'd say he's just on the upper end of average when you're rating the best wrestlers of all-time. Especially when he's only like 3 years into his career. Would you put him up there with Andre as the best big man ever?

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't really have a problem with his name. "Strowman" sounds a little "NXT name generator"-like but Braun's a good hoss name.

[#1-norm-fan]

And yeah, people shit on him constantly before he started destroying Roman. His recent booking has a fuckton to do with how over he is. More so than charisma. He's good. I think it's been too long since people have seen a well-booked hoss that they're overrating him a little though.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't really have a problem with his name. "Strowman" sounds a little "NXT name generator"-like but Braun's a good hoss name.

I don't mind Braun. You could do a fair bit with that name. Do an homage to Andre and call him Monster Braun. It's a little cheesy, but "Braun Strowman" has the same problem, in addition to sounding like it was coined by a Simpsons writer. You might as well call him Muscles Bigman.

The dude's real name has got enough of a cool vibe to it: Adam Scherr. Adam is widely known as the alleged first man, so there are inclinations of him being some sort of prototype and having an Old Testamenty wrath about him. Frankenstein's monster was also routinely compared to Adam. There's something Promethean about it that you could have exploited early on.

[Mr. Nerfect]

And yeah, people shit on him constantly before he started destroying Roman. His recent booking has a fuckton to do with how over he is. More so than charisma. He's good. I think it's been too long since people have seen a well-booked hoss that they're overrating him a little though.

Doesn't sound like the internet at all.

[Ruien]

He's so fucking over that No Mercy still hasn't sold out. Is everything I want in a big man? Nope. Has charisma? I gave him 7/10. That's 70% on the charisma scale for a dude who can't sell out a PPV against Brock Lesnar. I think that's more than a fair score. Would you like me to put him up there with the likes of The Rock, Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair? If anything, I've overrated Braun in charisma and mic skills. I maybe uncut him in terms of ring work. I don't think so though -- not when you put him in the grand scheme of things and consider just how good 7 and 8 out of 10 would be. Braun is not that good.

And yeah, I'd say he's just on the upper end of average when you're rating the best wrestlers of all-time. Especially when he's only like 3 years into his career. Would you put him up there with Andre as the best big man ever?

Since when do low tier ppv selll out? I honestly don't know because I don't care that much about the world of wrestling so it's a serious question.

[Ruien]

And yeah, people shit on him constantly before he started destroying Roman. His recent booking has a fuckton to do with how over he is. More so than charisma. He's good. I think it's been too long since people have seen a well-booked hoss that they're overrating him a little though.

Rusev was built perfectly for like a year.

Braun was over before Roman too in a heel way. Even with his Sami Zayn feud.

[Lock Jaw]

Braun started to get over after the brand split and killing jobbers and saying FEED ME THREE and all that

[#1-norm-fan]

Rusev was built perfectly for like a year.

I should have said a well-booked main event hoss. Rusev was doing great in the mid-card. His first taste of the main event was against Cena though and that's when it all went downhill.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't see how Rusev being built perfectly for like a year, which did earn him goodwill, is evidence that good booking didn't help Braun? I wouldn't say that Rusev is the same type of performer as Braun though. Rusev was always presented as more of a "tank." A lot more of a hybrid and agile sort of guy with a "legit" background. Strowman was always "big."

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Nailz was such a big star because of his look, right? Nathan Jones did so well because of his look. Billy Gunn looked like such a star. Brian Lee could be made up to look a lot like Undertaker. That would be automatically be successful right? Braun Strowman looks like a giant Eugene, and his name is literally meant to invoke the idea of "big dumb dude whose last name sounds like strongman." I'm sure he would have been packaged differently back in the day, but he might have also ended up in DOA doing nothing.

And, as I've stated, I think the reason people flock to him is because of how he's been booked. Look at how no one gave a shit about him when he first showed up. He didn't suddenly grow a whole bunch.

Braun Straw-man himself using straw-man.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

But I'll humour your silly response.

Nailz was pushed because of his look. Sadly, he couldn't work a lick and he also choked Vince McMahon to within an inch of his life.

Nathan Jones was a generic big man. Looked like a bouncer, very bland.

Billy Gunn was 6'5" 260 pounds in a sea of 6'5" 250 pounders.

So your examples are irrelevant and retarded.

Anyways, PARDON MY HYPERBOLE but his look has A LOT to do with a) his reactions and b) how he's been booked. You think anyone is buying it if Samoa Joe or Seth Rollins are beating the fuck out of Roman and flipping him over in an ambulance? HE LOOKS CREDIBLE. It's very simple. Call him retarded Eugene all you like to make yourself feel better I guess, but he's about as impressive a damn specimen I've seen in a long time.

I can't help if you're unable to decipher what I'm trying to say because you're too far up your own ass. But your response had very little to do with what I was saying Mr. Straw-man.

[Sixx]

Hm. I honestly thought Strowman was way taller. Apparently he's 6'8, same as Hogan.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

They always inflate height. Showbiz, pal.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Though Hogan is likely around 6'5"

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

More so than charisma. He's good. I think it's been too long since people have seen a well-booked hoss that they're overrating him a little though.

I'd agree tbh. Someone who's actually been kept strong. Hell they don't even keep Roman as strong as they keep Braun.

My only beef is with Noid deriding his look.

[Sixx]

Not talking about billed height but real height. Hogan is supposedly 6'8.

Look at us arguing like two soccer moms about which actresses have fake tits.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Hey MAY have been 6'8" but I doubt it. Nowadays he's definitely NOT 6'8" because of his back injuries.

[Ruien]

I don't see how Rusev being built perfectly for like a year, which did earn him goodwill, is evidence that good booking didn't help Braun? I wouldn't say that Rusev is the same type of performer as Braun though. Rusev was always presented as more of a "tank." A lot more of a hybrid and agile sort of guy with a "legit" background. Strowman was always "big."

Seriously? Read the post I responded to. Even Fan said he should have worded it different. You know, the guy who wrote it.

[Maluco]

Question for the Miz voters...did you always feel that way?

Definitely not, he looked stupid when he started out and had "reality TV star looking to stay relevent" stank on him. Whereas Morrison had a cool moveset, looked great and felt like he was going to be a big star.

Miz is such a great talker that he legitimised himself over time and he slowly found a look which worked for him.

I actually think that Maryse was missing piece of the puzzle. A valet can always help a heel look more important and I think having his hot wife around and rubbing it in people's faces only helps.

Also have immense respect for him after I heard what he went through in the beginning. Being thrown out of dressing room and all that. He fought hard to get where he is and it's hard now in an internet age not to know about that and respect it.

[Maluco]

Also, Braun Strowman is awesome. It's a pity he will be forever locked in battles with Roman Reigns, who is not awesome at all

[Sixx]

Hey MAY have been 6'8" but I doubt it. Nowadays he's definitely NOT 6'8" because of his back injuries.

Sucking cock more like it.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

dick sucking is scientifically proven to cause loss of height.

[Sixx]

Yeah, the girlfriend I'd been in a relationship for over 4 years was like 2'8 when we broke up.

[Mr. Nerfect]

But I'll humour your silly response.

Nailz was pushed because of his look. Sadly, he couldn't work a lick and he also choked Vince McMahon to within an inch of his life.

Nathan Jones was a generic big man. Looked like a bouncer, very bland.

Billy Gunn was 6'5" 260 pounds in a sea of 6'5" 250 pounders.

So your examples are irrelevant and retarded.

Anyways, PARDON MY HYPERBOLE but his look has A LOT to do with a) his reactions and b) how he's been booked. You think anyone is buying it if Samoa Joe or Seth Rollins are beating the fuck out of Roman and flipping him over in an ambulance? HE LOOKS CREDIBLE. It's very simple. Call him retarded Eugene all you like to make yourself feel better I guess, but he's about as impressive a damn specimen I've seen in a long time.

I can't help if you're unable to decipher what I'm trying to say because you're too far up your own ass. But your response had very little to do with what I was saying Mr. Straw-man.

I knew you'd need clarification on the point: My point is that a look needs more to go to with it, and Braun obviously has that, so don't lean on him getting over because of his look when that is clearly not the case. You even agree with #fan when he says that later. You're being difficult because you like acting like an petulant child. #DaleFail

The rest of your post isn't really worth responding to, but I'll do my best. That he's been booked well is exactly my point. Of course he got the push because he was big. Has anyone said otherwise? Way to back up my fucking point. I just don't think that makes him a 10/10 in terms of look. I gave him 7.5, which is hardly deriding. Learn math.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Seriously? Read the post I responded to. Even Fan said he should have worded it different. You know, the guy who wrote it.

And I disagree. Why do I need to 100% agree with #fan? I think he made a better point than he gives himself credit for.

[#1-norm-fan]

I think we all agree that Rusev was booked well up until he hit the main event. I clarified that I meant people haven't seen a MAIN EVENT monster heel booked well in a long time which takes Rusev out of the discussion. I don't think he's relevant to the "Is Braun a product of good booking?" debate.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I knew you'd need clarification on the point: My point is that a look needs more to go to with it, and Braun obviously has that, so don't lean on him getting over because of his look when that is clearly not the case. You even agree with #fan when he says that later. You're being difficult because you like acting like an petulant child. #DaleFail

The rest of your post isn't really worth responding to, but I'll do my best. That he's been booked well is exactly my point. Of course he got the push because he was big. Has anyone said otherwise? Way to back up my fucking point. I just don't think that makes him a 10/10 in terms of look. I gave him 7.5, which is hardly deriding. Learn math.

7.5 is a b plus, some pretty weak shit Noid, like most of your fantasy booking ideas.

And his look is a strong part of why he's credible and why he's getting booked which I've said already but you're too busy needing to confirm your bias to notice.

[Lock Jaw]

Remember when everybody hated Mark Henry, but then he was actually booked strong and went on a tear with his Hall of Pain thing and suddenly everybody loved him?

[Destor]

"Roman Reigns is the best heel in the business" - Some smartassnot wrong

[Anybody Thrilla]

Braun should mellow out and become a lighthearted grappling machine.

[Ruien]

I think we all agree that Rusev was booked well up until he hit the main event. I clarified that I meant people haven't seen a MAIN EVENT monster heel booked well in a long time which takes Rusev out of the discussion. I don't think he's relevant to the "Is Braun a product of good booking?" debate.

Not to Noid's standards.

[Mr. Nerfect]

7.5 is a b plus, some pretty weak shit Noid, like most of your fantasy booking ideas.

And his look is a strong part of why he's credible and why he's getting booked which I've said already but you're too busy needing to confirm your bias to notice.

This is your biggest #DaleFail to date. You're slipping, Newstead. 7.5 is a B-plus. That's upper-end good. That is literally "very good." I said he's got a "very good" look/presence. I just wouldn't say "great." Keep in mind that if I bumped him up to an 8.5 or a 9 (you obviously wouldn't quibble about .5 of a mark), then that would make him the top 15 or 10 percentile in history. For every hundred professional wrestlers, are you willing to bet that Strowman is going to be in the top 15 most of the time? I'm not sure he'd even crack it out of the current roster.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Not to Noid's standards.

I'll just re-post what I said in retort to this:

I don't see how Rusev being built perfectly for like a year, which did earn him goodwill, is evidence that good booking didn't help Braun? I wouldn't say that Rusev is the same type of performer as Braun though. Rusev was always presented as more of a "tank." A lot more of a hybrid and agile sort of guy with a "legit" background. Strowman was always "big."

* Rusev and Braun are different animals. Kind of apples and oranges. But those are fruit.

* In both circumstances, good booking made juice. You can't say "Well, Braun produced juice while Rusev didn't." When they were juiced it worked.

* Now I want juice.

While I agree with Fan that it has been a while since you saw someone like that pushed -- because Braun and Rusev are different -- I'd disagree that it's been that long since we saw good booking work, which emphasizes his point. You talk about Rusev like his undefeated push was bad. I wasn't a fan of Rusev at the time, but I wouldn't say that it was either bad nor well received.

What is your point?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

This is your biggest #DaleFail to date. You're slipping, Newstead. 7.5 is a B-plus. That's upper-end good. That is literally "very good." I said he's got a "very good" look/presence. I just wouldn't say "great." Keep in mind that if I bumped him up to an 8.5 or a 9 (you obviously wouldn't quibble about .5 of a mark), then that would make him the top 15 or 10 percentile in history. For every hundred professional wrestlers, are you willing to bet that Strowman is going to be in the top 15 most of the time? I'm not sure he'd even crack it out of the current roster.

lol b plus is what I'd get for an essay I wrote the night before it was due. Come on Noid, it's like a backhanded compliment.

[#1-norm-fan]

You're arguing that a B+ isn't a good enough grade for a wrestler you like. Jesus. lol

[#1-norm-fan]

This is a pretty silly argument. And I've seen some silly arguments. I feuded with norman smiley AND CyNick.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

IMO it's similar to that "PERFECT SCORE, 5/7"

I just think it's ludicrous. He clearly has the best look on the roster. He's a fucking monster. I just think it's consistent with Noid's trademark snobbiness.

[Ruien]

You're arguing that a B+ isn't a good enough grade for a wrestler you like. Jesus. lol

Well he said 7.5 out of 10 first. Which is a C

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol speaks to Canada's mediocrity, 75% is a b plus here LOL

[Destor]

That's 3 points from a D here

[Mr. Nerfect]

You're arguing that a B+ isn't a good enough grade for a wrestler you like. Jesus. lol

That's very true. Most arguments on here are silly, but this one is extremely childish. "You don't like him enough!"

[Ruien]

lol speaks to Canada's mediocrity, 75% is a b plus here LOL

Weird......

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

That's very true. Most arguments on here are silly, but this one is extremely childish. "You don't like him enough!"


I didn't say you didn't like him enough you silly boy. I said your rating of his look is ludicrous. But you know, don't let the truth get in the way of a good straw-man.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol, the letter grading is semantics. In the US it is a low letter grading, but that's because they don't space them out evenly and call everything below a fail simply a fail. Other parts of the world space things out more evenly and you don't get a "D" grade until you fail. You can basically separate them in blocks of 20%: A, B, C, D (fail), E or F (really bad fucking fail). 0-20 is really fucking bad, 20-40 is bad, 40-60 is average and barely a pass, 60-80 is good, and 80-100 is excellent. 75% is 75% anywhere regardless of if you call it a B or a C or an ostrich.

Many academic institutions call anything over 85% a high distinction. Doesn't make it any better or worse than calling 85% shitting the bed or whatever you want to call it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I didn't say you didn't like him enough you silly boy. I said your rating of his look is ludicrous. But you know, don't let the truth get in the way of a good straw-man.

That is being more finicky than I have ever been with you. You're cranky because Daddy didn't give the muscly wrestler a high enough rating for his muscles.

[Mr. Nerfect]

This conversation is somehow getting dumber.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Hey you're still arguing with me. You're just as mad as the rest of us. It's the beauty of tpww. We've spent a portion of our valuable time discussing whether a 75% is a fair rating of Braun Strowman's "look". I -for one- have 0 regrets.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm not saying I'm above it.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

It's like we're all one very sick, dysfunctional family

[Ruien]

Remember the day I said Noid should leave TPWW and he did? Good times. He's back with so much vengeance. It's like when Kane came back and killed DX with all of TPWW being DX.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Lol, the letter grading is semantics. In the US it is a low letter grading, but that's because they don't space them out evenly and call everything below a fail simply a fail. Other parts of the world space things out more evenly and you don't get a "D" grade until you fail. You can basically separate them in blocks of 20%: A, B, C, D (fail), E or F (really bad fucking fail). 0-20 is really fucking bad, 20-40 is bad, 40-60 is average and barely a pass, 60-80 is good, and 80-100 is excellent. 75% is 75% anywhere regardless of if you call it a B or a C or an ostrich.

Many academic institutions call anything over 85% a high distinction. Doesn't make it any better or worse than calling 85% shitting the bed or whatever you want to call it.

Given the subject matter of the actual argument, this is a fucking amazing post :lol:

[Destor]

I rank this thread a 54.

C-

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

isn't that like a full-on fail in the states?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

75% is like slightly above average.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

which was my gripe.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Remember the day I said Noid should leave TPWW and he did? Good times. He's back with so much vengeance. It's like when Kane came back and killed DX with all of TPWW being DX.

Lol, I literally don't remember you saying that. Sorry.

[Destor]

isn't that like a full-on fail in the states?

No its a c-

[Ruien]

Lol, I literally don't remember you saying that. Sorry.

It's fine. You flipped your shit so you probably do remember but it's okay.

[Anybody Thrilla]

An F would be a fail. Nothing else.

[#1-norm-fan]

I would rate Hulk Hogan's star power only a 99/100. Anyone wanna fight me about it?

[Mr. Nerfect]

It's fine. You flipped your shit so you probably do remember but it's okay.

I probably just ignored you.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I would rate Hulk Hogan's star power only a 99/100. Anyone wanna fight me about it?

What?! Why are you deriding Hulk Hogan? Don't you know that he got to be a star because of his star power?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

that is literally 24% above what you rated Braun's look. #HateradeBrigade desperately trying to fit their narrative.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Man Savage and Steamboat was a real *** 1/2 star gem.

[Destor]

I would rate Hulk Hogan's star power only a 99/100. Anyone wanna fight me about it?
Who's the 100/100?

[Anybody Thrilla]

Probably just wiggle room just in case.

[Lock Jaw]

Who's the 100/100?

Me, Lock Jaw.

[#1-norm-fan]

Who's the 100/100?

Nobody's perfect. That's what Dale's last sexual partner told him to make him feel better but it also happens to be true.

[#1-norm-fan]

I feel like DAMN iNATOR is gonna come in here, quote that post, and then post a picture of Curt Hennig. So hopefully this post will stop him in his tracks.

Then again, me saying that will probably cause him to post something like "I PLAY BY MY OWN RULES" and then post it anyway.

Goddammit.

[Anybody Thrilla]

The Bye Bye Man.

Don't think it, don't speak it.

[Anybody Thrilla]

The BabaDAMN

[Anybody Thrilla]

The CandyDAMN

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Nobody's perfect. That's what Dale's last sexual partner told him to make him feel better but it also happens to be true.

She actually said everybody has been perfect other than me. She rated me 75/100 :'(

[mike adamle]

Let us not forget it was actually me that ran Noid off the last time he left. Now he's back and less entertaining than ever!

[My Final Heaven]

I'd have Morrison on my roster, without even giving it any thought. He's a guy that could be built as the face of a company, it's just that he hasn't been given the chance yet. Everybody was on his nuts when he was ECW champion feuding with Punk, if you found the right rival for him you could be making Scrooge McDuck cash. Morrison, you can work him Face or Heel, but Miz - anybody remember when he was Patriotic Mini-Flair?

And to address the elephant in the room:
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/sQmNfgy3MyiZWBssfdWC883N8EQ=/0x0:1276x718/1600x900/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/50502659/Miz_TS.0.png

That moment, right there, that's reason everybody's been putting Miz on a pedestal for a year. He hasn't stepped up his game or put himself thru a "career renaissance", he just said I Hate This Company a couple times & all of a sudden he should be unifying all of the belts because OMFG PIPE BOMB GUIZ :lol:

[Lock Jaw]

Miz has been going through a "career renaissance" ever since he started his Hollywood thing..... his thing with Damien Mizdow, etc....

IMO

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

She actually said everybody has been perfect other than me. She rated me 75/100 :'(

:rant: oh come on this is my 'A' material!

[Lock Jaw]

So needy..... :nono:

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

All I need is you, Lock Jaw.

[Mr. Nerfect]

that is literally 24% above what you rated Braun's look. #HateradeBrigade desperately trying to fit their narrative.

You're arguing shades of good instead of shades of great. It's the same principle.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'd have Morrison on my roster, without even giving it any thought. He's a guy that could be built as the face of a company, it's just that he hasn't been given the chance yet. Everybody was on his nuts when he was ECW champion feuding with Punk, if you found the right rival for him you could be making Scrooge McDuck cash. Morrison, you can work him Face or Heel, but Miz - anybody remember when he was Patriotic Mini-Flair?

And to address the elephant in the room:
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/sQmNfgy3MyiZWBssfdWC883N8EQ=/0x0:1276x718/1600x900/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/50502659/Miz_TS.0.png

That moment, right there, that's reason everybody's been putting Miz on a pedestal for a year. He hasn't stepped up his game or put himself thru a "career renaissance", he just said I Hate This Company a couple times & all of a sudden he should be unifying all of the belts because OMFG PIPE BOMB GUIZ :lol:

I kind of agree with you. I mean, I appreciate what Maryse brought to the act and everything, but he's overrated. His Talking Smack appearance was Alexa Bliss' Harley Quinn cosplay.

[Sepholio]

75% is a D in my neck of the woods. Not that letter grades matter.

I would rate his look higher, personally. I've been sitting here trying to think of current WWE wrestlers who have a better look, and it is really hard. Roman Reigns probably has the best look right now. Cena is close to or better in the look department than Braun. Would have said Brock a couple years ago but he seems chunkier now and always turns beet red and starts sweating enough to cause the great flood of Noah, so he would now be below Strowman. Jinder has a good look if you ignore his vascular roidinosis. I'd have Big E way on up there too. But yea Strowman is def top 5 in look department in recent memory for me, probably top 3.

[#1-norm-fan]

Orton has a better look.

[#1-norm-fan]

Also, this movie star who somehow fell into WWE's lap.

http://wrestlingsuperstore.com/images/products/detail/PW06413.jpg

[Mr. Nerfect]

75% is a D in my neck of the woods. Not that letter grades matter.

I would rate his look higher, personally. I've been sitting here trying to think of current WWE wrestlers who have a better look, and it is really hard. Roman Reigns probably has the best look right now. Cena is close to or better in the look department than Braun. Would have said Brock a couple years ago but he seems chunkier now and always turns beet red and starts sweating enough to cause the great flood of Noah, so he would now be below Strowman. Jinder has a good look if you ignore his vascular roidinosis. I'd have Big E way on up there too. But yea Strowman is def top 5 in look department in recent memory for me, probably top 3.

I did a list, and when it came to the main event look, I went with Cena, Orton, Reigns, Brock, Jinder (you've got to give him something), Kane, Big Show, Sheamus, Big E, Samoa Joe and Fandango as having an equal or better look. Then, you've got guys who look good or distinct without necessarily being in the main event -- Goldust presents himself well, R-Truth is still in phenomenal shape, Xavier Woods, AJ Styles, Neville, Tye Dillinger, etc.

Part of having a good look is having the right look for your role too. I'd rate so many guys in history over Braun. Ric Flair has a better look than Strowman, in my opinion, because Flair looked like The Nature Boy and an icon every time he walked out. Braun is big. That's a huge deal (literally), but there needs to be more going on there.

Anyway, if you're going by percentile, Braun is arguably not in the top 10 percentile of WWE right now, let alone historically. So I could make the case he isn't even a 9.0 using only current and respective ratings, but even if you only conceded that Orton, Cena, Reigns and Brock were better right now, I'm sure when you're honest about his place historically, you'll admit he slips down.

[#1-norm-fan]

He does have kind of a Eugene face. Like... if they wanted to use him as a big, lovable retarded guy he could pull it off easily and the same people praising his look now would not be praising his look. His booking definitely plays into how people are perceiving his look.

[#1-norm-fan]

This Lars Sullivan guy Triple A posted about blows him away in the look department.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKxRWNpUMAAwzl0.jpg

If Strowman is a 9+, you've gotta add numbers to the scale to fit this big, ugly, no-nonsense looking motherfucker in.

[DAMN iNATOR]

The Miz bores me. Mundo / Morrison for sure.

Same here.

[Mr. Nerfect]

He does have kind of a Eugene face. Like... if they wanted to use him as a big, lovable retarded guy he could pull it off easily and the same people praising his look now would not be praising his look. His booking definitely plays into how people are perceiving his look.

Yeah, absolutely. Remember him bouncing around as a Rosebud? Eventually the guy is going to be getting the hot tag and crowds will be cheering slightly louder than average for him. His look isn't actually perfectly fitted for his gimmick, but he's been booked to suit that and people are kind of projecting that look onto him.

Also, Lars Sullivan is genuinely terrifying. If I made Strowman an 8.5, that would mean I'd need to at least make Sullivan a 9 or 9.5. This is how you blow up your own scale.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Chicks dig Lars Sullivan. Or he kills them.