View Full Version : WWE releases Enzo Amore
Droford
01-26-2018, 08:25 PM
Forever isn't as long as it used to be
Frank Drebin
01-26-2018, 08:37 PM
Did they even bother to use Naomi or did they just google black hair products and lift one of the stock images they came across?
Maybe i go in detes later.
But i believe Enzo. Hard red flag gets raised when this chick dont have a lawyer. And she clearly dont have a lawyer ( or no lawyer is taking her case ), because she wouldnt be blabbering on Twitter and Youtube and TMZ right now.
I'm also going to say the obvious here...
I'm pretty sure Enzo dont have to rape a 4/10 which is her. And rating her a 4 is being nice. I'm just saying. No one else wants to say it. I will. Enzo probably pulls much better than her when he's a sleep.
Incorrect. The girl, herself, said she was hot and understood why enzo would rape her.
If this girl had gotten a lawyer. And shut her mouth. Stayed off social media. She had a legit chance at this. But she didnt do any of that. And her Twitter, her Youtube her friends.. all of that will come into play now and there is literally no way Enzo gets proven guilty in a court of law here. All because she was dumb... or she made it up.
I dont think a lawyer has taken her case because they dont believe her.
Lock Jaw
01-26-2018, 10:10 PM
A lawyer would be more than happy to take her money whether they believed her or not.
A lawyer would be more than happy to take her money whether they believed her or not.
True. That lawyer would tell her to stfu on real life and social media also.
Cool King
01-27-2018, 10:55 AM
So, when Big Cass gets healed up, what do you do with him?
Best case is to put him right back in the tag division since his ceiling for success is really small.
Also considering he was hated just as much as Enzo backstage, don't see him lasting long either in the WWE.
I didn't know Cass was hated backstage. Any reason why?
I can see why Enzo would have been hated. The guy comes across as being a complete dick and legitimately annoying.
owenbrown
01-27-2018, 12:42 PM
Probably a case of Guilty by Association.
#BROKEN Hasney
01-27-2018, 01:14 PM
No, its apparently because he's a big Trump supporter and tends not to shut up about it.
Droford
01-27-2018, 01:32 PM
Certified GOP
erickman
01-27-2018, 02:39 PM
No, its apparently because he's a big Trump supporter and tends not to shut up about it.
so he has a job there for life vince is a trump supporter too
Cool King
01-27-2018, 02:45 PM
No, its apparently because he's a big Trump supporter and tends not to shut up about it.
I wouldn't really see that as a reason to hate the guy.
I know loads of people who love the SNP and don't shut up about it but I don't hate them because of it.
I just think they're a bit stupid but they're still my friends/acquaintances.
The MAC
01-27-2018, 03:46 PM
Wasnt Enzo also violating the wellness policy by doing coke?
Anybody Thrilla
01-27-2018, 04:03 PM
Didn't stop Shawn Michaels.
#1-norm-fan
01-27-2018, 04:06 PM
Did she even actually say he was doing coke? I think the story makes it clear he was around people doing it but not that he ever did it.
Anybody Thrilla
01-27-2018, 04:13 PM
Coke whatever. Rape is the claim.
#BROKEN Hasney
01-27-2018, 05:07 PM
I wouldn't really see that as a reason to hate the guy.
I know loads of people who love the SNP and don't shut up about it but I don't hate them because of it.
I just think they're a bit stupid but they're still my friends/acquaintances.
I think because they spend so much time together, they try and get along and talking about divisive politics probably isn't the way to do it.
It isn't really hating someone when they say heat backstage, just shunning them a bit. I mean, since Cass and Enzo are friends, do you really want to talk politics with one of them and then also Enzo?
Savio
01-27-2018, 06:12 PM
Enzo seems like a stand up guy that never tried coke................................................................................................ .................................................................................................... .................................................................................................... ..........................................................................
Emperor Smeat
01-27-2018, 06:21 PM
I wouldn't really see that as a reason to hate the guy.
I know loads of people who love the SNP and don't shut up about it but I don't hate them because of it.
I just think they're a bit stupid but they're still my friends/acquaintances.
Supposedly its more of him just going overboard with the toxicity that got everyone pissed at him way more than Enzo. Outside of some questionable people (ex. Micheal Hayes and his racism allegations), Cass supposedly swings a lot farther right with his views than the rest of the WWE. Think the best comparison I've seen is him being like the uncle or aunt that goes overboard with political talk during big holidays making family gatherings miserable for everyone else.
With Enzo, its mostly his antics that got everyone pissed at him and eventually his firing from the WWE. In terms of views, worst that has been said about him is the constant bad mouthing he does privately about having to work as a wrestler.
Shisen Kopf
01-28-2018, 10:48 AM
What a loser. Fuck Enzo. Not only a rapist but a coke head too.
Evolution
01-29-2018, 04:32 AM
Supposedly its more of him just going overboard with the toxicity that got everyone pissed at him way more than Enzo. Outside of some questionable people (ex. Micheal Hayes and his racism allegations), Cass supposedly swings a lot farther right with his views than the rest of the WWE. Think the best comparison I've seen is him being like the uncle or aunt that goes overboard with political talk during big holidays making family gatherings miserable for everyone else.
With Enzo, its mostly his antics that got everyone pissed at him and eventually his firing from the WWE. In terms of views, worst that has been said about him is the constant bad mouthing he does privately about having to work as a wrestler.
Then why become a wrestler? There are plenty of people toiling in NXT and the indies that would gladly take that spot
Destor
01-30-2018, 11:02 AM
Still no facts on this ftr. For those that still require facts of course. I know most find them cumbersome.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 01:50 PM
Enzo won't be charged with rape. But people will still think he's a rapist.
Shadrick
05-16-2018, 02:48 PM
Enzo won't be charged with rape. But people will still think he's a rapist.
why won't he be charged?
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 02:52 PM
Insufficient evidence upon investigation or some such. Too lazy to link.
Lock Jaw
05-16-2018, 02:54 PM
If he had a dime for every piece of evidence they had, how many dimes would he have?
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 02:56 PM
I think 0.
Lock Jaw
05-16-2018, 02:58 PM
Ok, thank you.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 03:03 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/qTr5hMs3Oi">pic.twitter.com/qTr5hMs3Oi</a></p>— Enzo Amore (@real1) <a href="https://twitter.com/real1/status/996800669267972096?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 16, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 03:10 PM
There was a bunch of us who had predicted this from the start given the complainant's lack of credibility.
Innovator
05-16-2018, 03:12 PM
Was just talking about Enzo at the gym this morning with one of his friends, saying he own't be back ever but Cass needs him. Bad.
Evil Vito
05-16-2018, 03:17 PM
Just because there was insufficient evidence doesn't mean that it was a false accusation.
Amore shouldn't serve jail time for something for which there is not sufficient proof. But there is not a chance in hell WWE will bring him back.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 03:22 PM
Just because there was insufficient evidence doesn't mean that it was a false accusation.
Enzo won't be charged with rape. But people will still think he's a rapist.
Fignuts
05-16-2018, 03:23 PM
Its very doubtful he's guilty given everything we know about the accuser and the situation.
But that's the shitty thing about these cases. The accusation alone can ruin your life.
Ian Rotten will still book him though.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 03:30 PM
Yep he's done. I mean by all accounts he's a headache but fuck, that's a raw deal.
LibSuperstar
05-16-2018, 03:38 PM
Just because there was insufficient evidence doesn't mean that it was a false accusation.
Amore shouldn't serve jail time for something for which there is not sufficient proof. But there is not a chance in hell WWE will bring him back.
Right! It's a difficult charge to prove. DAs want winnable cases. But yeah I also doubt WWE will bring him back since he violated the Morality Clause which requires WWE employees to inform them when under investigation. That's why he let go, not the charge itself. Swann got work at Impact despite his domestic investigation so there's a chance for Amore.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 03:43 PM
Except Swann actually did it and it's all but proven that he did. With witnesses and everything. His wife just didn't wanna press charges.
#1-norm-fan
05-16-2018, 03:46 PM
If there's insufficient evidence for anything it doesn't necessarily mean it's false. Doesn't mean that the odds of it being true are equal to the odds of it being false. That's why "innocent until proven guilty" is a thing. Enzo is just as innocent as any human being who hasn't been accused of rape.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 03:49 PM
Thank you kindly, TODDSTER. Said pretty much what I wanted to say.
Evil Vito
05-16-2018, 04:06 PM
If Enzo wishes to continue to have a career in wrestling, he'll probably be in Impact by year's end. They've signed guys in similar situations to him before.
AFAIK, Enzo was looking to quite wrestling entirely and work towards a rap career.
Emperor Smeat
05-16-2018, 04:35 PM
If there's insufficient evidence for anything it doesn't necessarily mean it's false. Doesn't mean that the odds of it being true are equal to the odds of it being false. That's why "innocent until proven guilty" is a thing. Enzo is just as innocent as any human being who hasn't been accused of rape.
Yeah. The chances of getting any sort of conviction against him was always going to be low based on the stats for these types of crimes and the accuser having her own issues.
He still did one of the most boneheaded decisions ever by not telling the WWE about this incident. Between that and drugs being involved, the chances of him not getting fired or punished was going to be slim to none.
Savio
05-16-2018, 04:52 PM
Just because there was insufficient evidence doesn't mean that it was a false accusation.
Doesn't mean it's true either.
Nicky Fives
05-16-2018, 05:38 PM
Enzo would be back if there wasn't so much heat on him before the incident.
Mr. Nerfect
05-16-2018, 07:01 PM
Just because there was insufficient evidence doesn't mean that it was a false accusation.
Amore shouldn't serve jail time for something for which there is not sufficient proof. But there is not a chance in hell WWE will bring him back.
Thank you. Some common sense. When these things boil down to he-said/she-said, it's hard to make a case. That doesn't mean the thing never happened. Women in the mess that this alleged victim was are often preyed on because the old boys will dismiss even credible stories if it goes against the narrative they want to believe about women loving to lie about being weakened and violated.
If there's not enough evidence to press charges against Enzo, of course he shouldn't be prosecuted. That's not to say he is entitled to a job in entertainment.
If there's insufficient evidence for anything it doesn't necessarily mean it's false. Doesn't mean that the odds of it being true are equal to the odds of it being false. That's why "innocent until proven guilty" is a thing. Enzo is just as innocent as any human being who hasn't been accused of rape.
Statistically, false reports of sexual abuse are very, very rare. I'm not going to look up the statistic again, but again, the old boys make it very hard for people (men, women and children) to come out and actually say "Yes, this happened to me." Your reasoning is perfectly logical until it ignores the data around these sorts of acts. It's coming at it from an "all things being equal" point of view, which is fine for a court of law, but doesn't reflect reality.
You're seeing it in the public sphere more and more. That Lawrence Krauss guy was accused of sexual assault by a whole bunch of independent witnesses -- many of them with sterling reputations, with it being a detriment to their careers to speak out about it. A whole bunch of edgy lads on the net go around saying stuff like "That's not evidence; that's not evidence." It's so gross. There wouldn't have been evidence in this situation, and Enzo shouldn't be locked up because of an accusation that can't be validated -- which is unfortunate if true -- but that's a blind-spot of the legal system. And it's a blind-spot that has to be there. It's just gross when MRAs borderline relish it. Gives me the goddamn heebies.
And if I were running a wrestling company, fuck Enzo Amore. He's not talented enough to warrant the headaches even if he had an airtight alibi. But Impact will use him, so good for that shit-hole. :y:
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 07:11 PM
:roll:
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 07:16 PM
So say Enzo didn't do anything which is as likely as anything else. He some how deserves this?
It's okay because "fuck the patriarchy?".
I'm aware of the stats and they are incredibly problematic (depending on validity) but this outcome isn't the lesser of two evils--it's still just evil.
Savio
05-16-2018, 08:26 PM
I hope Enzo Amore is on the next season of Survivor
#1-norm-fan
05-16-2018, 09:35 PM
Statistically, false reports of sexual abuse are very, very rare. I'm not going to look up the statistic again, but again, the old boys make it very hard for people (men, women and children) to come out and actually say "Yes, this happened to me." Your reasoning is perfectly logical until it ignores the data around these sorts of acts. It's coming at it from an "all things being equal" point of view, which is fine for a court of law, but doesn't reflect reality.
It absolutely reflects reality. What DOESN'T effect reality is when you haphazardly take any accusation as true or even likely until proven otherwise because "most women don't lie about this". The evidence in this case is the evidence in this case. That's reality. The idea that anyone making an allegation must be believed until proven otherwise is disgusting regardless of the claim.
Sepholio
05-16-2018, 09:40 PM
I always thought it was innocent until proven guilty. Apparently it's been guilty until proven innocent the entire time. Blows my mind how I missed that this whole time.
#1-norm-fan
05-16-2018, 09:46 PM
Also can if we can factor in "statistically, women don't lie", can we factor in "statistically, crazy drug addicts with a history of being unstable attention whores tend to lie a lot more than others"? Because that's also definitely reality.
Sepholio
05-16-2018, 09:53 PM
Women don't lie.....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I wish someone would tell women that.
Boy. Let me stop. That was rich though.
LibSuperstar
05-16-2018, 09:53 PM
"Innocent until proven guilty" is so commonly misunderstood. It refers to legal innocence, not factual innocence, meaning that gov't has to prove an accused person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Mileage can vary on reasonable doubt but a juror must not convict even if they believe the defendant to be guilty. That's why a person guilty as sin can get acquitted.
Also can if we can factor in "statistically, women don't lie", can we factor in "statistically, crazy drug addicts with a history of being unstable attention whores tend to lie a lot more than others"? Because that's also definitely reality.
It is but doesn't cancel out the reality of false accusations being rare.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 10:00 PM
My point is proven. Very clear that the allegation alone means Enzo is a rapist to you guys even though he has not been proven guilty.
Sepholio
05-16-2018, 10:01 PM
It shouldn't be misunderstood though. The fact that someone can have their livelihood stripped away solely based on accusations, without their guilt ever being proven, well that's just simply appalling to me.
Statistics should have no bearing on any of this. This is all on a case by case basis. Who cares if false accusations are rare? Those are other cases that have no relevance to this one. Every one of these situations is unique and to break it down into statistical analysis does all parties involved an injustice. If we keep heading down this road the number of false accusations is liable to start rising exponentially; once people realize they can screw over someone they don't like just by levelling an accusation at them, regardless of the legitimacy of the claim, more and more people will do it purely out of spite.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 10:04 PM
Sorry Seph. All women are virtuous beings incapable of evil actions.
But anyways. I agree with you. It should all be a case-by-case basis.
Destor
05-16-2018, 10:11 PM
It is but doesn't cancel out the reality of false accusations being rare.
One of those bull shit "stats" that cant be proven.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 10:13 PM
One of those bull shit "stats" that cant be proven.
That's what I keep thinking.
Destor
05-16-2018, 10:13 PM
Cop once told me in elementary school that 90% of all criminals get caught. Im still dumbfounded by how ignorant you have to believe to think you can quantify that
#1-norm-fan
05-16-2018, 10:22 PM
Saw a homeless lady walking around the streets yelling that she was raped by George Washington's ghost. Based on statistics, she was telling the truth.
Emperor Smeat
05-16-2018, 10:23 PM
One of those bull shit "stats" that cant be proven.
Not really considering there are organizations that track these stats and reveal why it becomes one of the hardest crimes to get a conviction in court. Besides the circumstances and scrutiny for evidence, attacking the accuser's credibility has been a very proven and effective tactic both in court and public opinion.
Those same organizations also come up with the same overall result that the amount of rapes that don't get reported or investigated properly is way, way, way higher than those that do.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 10:25 PM
Saw a homeless lady walking around the streets yelling that she was raped by George Washington's ghost. Based on statistics, she was telling the truth.
Well we have to take her word for it. This changes everything we thought we knew about George Washington. I'll start writing the exposé and get it published by babe.net. If that fails I'll settle for Huffington Post.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 10:27 PM
Not really considering there are organizations that track these stats and reveal why it becomes one of the hardest crimes to get a conviction in court. Besides the circumstances and scrutiny for evidence, attacking the accuser's credibility has been a very proven and effective tactic both in court and public opinion.
Those same organizations also come up with the same overall result that the amount of rapes that don't get reported or investigated properly is way, way, way higher than those that do.
I'm not saying there isn't any merit to this. But it's literally one lens.
The attitude of "he was accused therefore he did it" is fucked.
He isn't even getting charged anymore because they can't prove anything and y'all are gonna act like he deserves it. I don't like Enzo, but with what we know from the case, nobody can fairly say he deserves to be considered a rapist by anyone.
Sepholio
05-16-2018, 10:31 PM
How do they have even a count on "rapes that don't get reported"? If they aren't reported then how do they know about them? SO CONFUSING.
Destor
05-16-2018, 10:50 PM
Not really considering there are organizations that track these stats and reveal why it becomes one of the hardest crimes to get a conviction in court. Besides the circumstances and scrutiny for evidence, attacking the accuser's credibility has been a very proven and effective tactic both in court and public opinion.
Those same organizations also come up with the same overall result that the amount of rapes that don't get reported or investigated properly is way, way, way higher than those that do.
The flaw to this is the assumption that the verdict is true making this entire metric worthless
Emperor Smeat
05-16-2018, 10:50 PM
I'm not saying there isn't any merit to this. But it's literally one lens.
The attitude of "he was accused therefore he did it" is fucked.
He isn't even getting charged anymore because they can't prove anything and y'all are gonna act like he deserves it. I don't like Enzo, but with what we know from the case, nobody can fairly say he deserves to be considered a rapist by anyone.
How is that any different than automatically believing the woman is lying either every time incidents like this pop up.
Based on the various sites I visit daily, a ton more have stuck with the woman being a liar the whole time and used today to pounce on their claims even though the case was only dismissed. A big chunk believing he's still a dumbass for not telling the WWE, a smaller chunk realizing he's still neither guilty nor innocent (same for the accuser), and barely anyone claiming he is still a rapist.
How do they have even a count on "rapes that don't get reported"? If they aren't reported then how do they know about them? SO CONFUSING.
Estimates and probably police data which is why the range can vary a lot. Last I read, its something like 1 out of every 3 cases are ever reported in the US as a best case and then the number keeps dwindling percentage wise the close you get to a possible conviction due to various reasons and circumstances.
Destor
05-16-2018, 10:52 PM
How do they have even a count on "rapes that don't get reported"? If they aren't reported then how do they know about them? SO CONFUSING.
Was my argument to the cop claiming 9/10 criminals get caught. At the least the scale has to tip beyond the claim, you cant put a value to unknowns and hope for anything that resembles accuracy.
It jusr "feels" accurate. Its not science.
#1-norm-fan
05-16-2018, 10:58 PM
How is that any different than automatically believing the woman is lying either every time incidents like this pop up.
It's not any different. The argument isn't "Always believe women" vs "Never believe women". It's "Always believe women" vs "Don't always believe women".
#1-norm-fan
05-16-2018, 11:01 PM
I'm not gonna believe the crazy homeless lady who claims she was raped by George Washington's ghost. That's the extreme example. The less extreme example is not believing the drug addict attention whore who bragged about sex with a guy before deciding to accuse him of rape. Both are more logical reactions than "Well, she's got a vagina so... probably telling the truth." That's setting a horrifying precedent.
Emperor Smeat
05-16-2018, 11:01 PM
It's not any different. The argument isn't "Always believe women" vs "Never believe women". It's "Always believe women" vs "Don't always believe women".
As much as you want to believe the latter, the former is what happens way more especially online.
Your naive if you think otherwise.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 11:04 PM
How is that any different than automatically believing the woman is lying either every time incidents like this pop up.
Based on the various sites I visit daily, a ton more have stuck with the woman being a liar the whole time and used today to pounce on their claims even though the case was only dismissed. A big chunk believing he's still a dumbass for not telling the WWE, a smaller chunk realizing he's still neither guilty nor innocent (same for the accuser), and barely anyone claiming he is still a rapist.
Once that stench is on you it's never removed.
And yep, he is a dumbass for not telling WWE. If that's their motivation (coupled with his shit attitude) for keeping him fired then that's cool.
I'm not talking about the news sites anyways. I'm talking about here. And enough of pretty much civilians participating in most discourse.
"Dude gets accused of rape and doesn't end up getting charged" usually turns into "well statistics show that he likely did it". It's ugly.
Rape is certainly uglier. But it is different to many crimes given its social implications. To act like women faking accusations is laughable is very naive.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 11:05 PM
It's not any different. The argument isn't "Always believe women" vs "Never believe women". It's "Always believe women" vs "Don't always believe women".
Well said.
Destor
05-16-2018, 11:05 PM
If my options are "always believe women based off imaginary data" or "always reject women if there is a lack of data" i know which way im leaning.
#1-norm-fan
05-16-2018, 11:06 PM
As much as you want to believe the latter, the former is what happens way more especially online.
Your naive if you think otherwise.
I'm not concerned with what "happens online". I'm talking about the discussion that's happening right now.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 11:07 PM
And if you want to ask "why would a woman lie about being raped?", ask yourself "why would a man rape a woman?" The argument commonly used for the latter question is it's about power.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-16-2018, 11:09 PM
As much as you want to believe the latter, the former is what happens way more especially online.
Your naive if you think otherwise.
Gotta go with the TODDSTER here. We're talking about us hombres in this conversation (and most civil discourse). Most twitter/youtube threads are the dregs. I think we all line up closer than you think. Enough so that we can have a productive discussion.
Emperor Smeat
05-16-2018, 11:18 PM
Gotta go with the TODDSTER here. We're talking about us hombres in this conversation (and most civil discourse). Most twitter/youtube threads are the dregs. I think we all line up closer than you think. Enough so that we can have a productive discussion.
Not when you all repeating the similar points but masquerading it to make it seem like your having a productive conversation or "balanced" debate.
But I digress, I have a different feeling on this issue, you/WWF Fan/Destor have your own and I doubt anything I post would shift your view nor yours on mine.
Same for whenever the topic of mental health or other touchy issues pop up on TPWW and I quickly realize my view is a lot different than others here. That's when I start to realize maybe it might be time to move on from here.
LibSuperstar
05-16-2018, 11:38 PM
The idea isn't "They were accused so they must be guilty" but rather there's a good chance the accused could be based on stats. I assume when somebody's accused of anything, the chance of them being innocent/guilty is 50/50 (before I hear of the evidence involved).
Except Swann actually did it and it's all but proven that he did. With witnesses and everything. His wife just didn't wanna press charges.
Missed this earlier but that's my point. He still got even though he did. Also, he was initially got suspended, like Amore did, except he didn't fail to tell them.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 12:54 AM
Not when you all repeating the similar points but masquerading it to make it seem like your having a productive conversation or "balanced" debate.
We're saying "blindly believing all women is a horrible idea" and you're determined to vilify that logic by lumping us in with some internet trolls who say "never believe a woman" as opposed to listening to what we're actually saying. And we're somehow the ones who aren't interested in a productive conversation. You're being insanely dishonest. I agree we'll never come to an understanding because it's obvious from that alone that that isn't your M.O.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 01:15 AM
Would be interesting to see the reaction if some batshit crazy lady with no credibility accused a wrestler people actually like of rape with no evidence that she's being truthful and actual evidence that suggests she's lying. Like... if Daniel Bryan were in this situation instead of Enzo, I wonder if he would basically be considered guilty.
SlickyTrickyDamon
05-17-2018, 01:44 AM
Enzo got fired for lying/not disclosing to the WWE about the investigation. Also he had already been on thin ice and kicked off the WWE bus by Roman Reigns.
He was a big-headed jerk and this was the excuse WWE was looking for to cut ties. He was over like rover but couldn't get out of his own way.
Badda boom, stupidest fuck in the room. How is he doing?
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:31 AM
"Innocent until proven guilty" is so commonly misunderstood. It refers to legal innocence, not factual innocence, meaning that gov't has to prove an accused person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Mileage can vary on reasonable doubt but a juror must not convict even if they believe the defendant to be guilty. That's why a person guilty as sin can get acquitted.
It is but doesn't cancel out the reality of false accusations being rare.
:y:
A crime likely being committed (not specifically referring to this case) does not mean guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And being acquitted doesn't mean that a crime was not committed.
My point is proven. Very clear that the allegation alone means Enzo is a rapist to you guys even though he has not been proven guilty.
Absolute bullshit.
It shouldn't be misunderstood though. The fact that someone can have their livelihood stripped away solely based on accusations, without their guilt ever being proven, well that's just simply appalling to me.
Statistics should have no bearing on any of this. This is all on a case by case basis. Who cares if false accusations are rare? Those are other cases that have no relevance to this one. Every one of these situations is unique and to break it down into statistical analysis does all parties involved an injustice. If we keep heading down this road the number of false accusations is liable to start rising exponentially; once people realize they can screw over someone they don't like just by levelling an accusation at them, regardless of the legitimacy of the claim, more and more people will do it purely out of spite.
No one is entitled to a life of fame from the get-go. Enzo was lucky to be where he was in the first place. But he was also in hot water for his general attitude (asshole) and not informing the company of it (boneheaded). Also -- and it's been a while since I've read up on the details of the case -- but I'm fairly certain Enzo does not deny sleeping with the girl in question, and that all accounts had them both as intoxicated off illegal drugs or something like that? In the current PR-hungry world of WWE, that's not going to fly.
He's facing the consequences of his own actions. He's not going to prison for rape, because there is no evidence a rape was committed. But fuck me if he isn't a fucking muppet and I don't feel sorry for him because he lost his job for generally being a trouble magnet.
Not really considering there are organizations that track these stats and reveal why it becomes one of the hardest crimes to get a conviction in court. Besides the circumstances and scrutiny for evidence, attacking the accuser's credibility has been a very proven and effective tactic both in court and public opinion.
Those same organizations also come up with the same overall result that the amount of rapes that don't get reported or investigated properly is way, way, way higher than those that do.
:y:
There are plenty of metrics to measure this sort of stuff. You aren't just going by trial data and conviction rates. There are medical reports, outcries, psychological studies, sociological studies, organizations that gather reports, even religious confessions. If anything, the number is likely underrepresented.
I'm not saying there isn't any merit to this. But it's literally one lens.
The attitude of "he was accused therefore he did it" is fucked.
He isn't even getting charged anymore because they can't prove anything and y'all are gonna act like he deserves it. I don't like Enzo, but with what we know from the case, nobody can fairly say he deserves to be considered a rapist by anyone.
Your first two lines are on the money. It is only one lens. That is why he is not being charged. Unfortunately, you often get multiple lenses and people still don't get charged. Sometimes things are pretty fucking obvious and people still don't get charged.
No one is saying that because he was accused he did it. It is unlikely that the girl made it up. That's just a fact. Could she have made it up? Sure. But is it likely? No. If it were true, would there be more evidence? Unfortunately, not necessarily. It's a big, dark mess. Does he deserve to be treated like a rapist? No. That's why he's not going to prison.
How do they have even a count on "rapes that don't get reported"? If they aren't reported then how do they know about them? SO CONFUSING.
Medical reports, counseling sessions, outcries, confessions, studies, etc. I can't believe you don't know women who have been assaulted and never reported it.
We're saying "blindly believing all women is a horrible idea" and you're determined to vilify that logic by lumping us in with some internet trolls who say "never believe a woman" as opposed to listening to what we're actually saying. And we're somehow the ones who aren't interested in a productive conversation. You're being insanely dishonest. I agree we'll never come to an understanding because it's obvious from that alone that that isn't your M.O.
Well, when you misrepresent the other side of the argument so grossly as to talk about ghosts and shit, which you admit is "extreme," you make it pretty easy to vilify your logic. How about you listen to what other people are saying?
No one is saying that Enzo definitely did it. What we're saying is that there not being evidence enough to press charges doesn't mean he didn't. Until those charges can be pressed, he is free man though, so good for him.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:45 AM
What doesn't sit well with me when discussing things like this is the inherent fact that someone is lying. Either the woman is lying or Enzo is lying. It's possible both are lying. It's possible both think they are telling the truth, but objective reality suggests that they can't both be telling it. What's really unsettling to me is just how comfortable a lot of dudes are with saying that it's the chick that's lying. You don't even need to say that Enzo is lying, but the idea that this is just a dark and messy situation with a definitive victim (of some description) that they should not have to go through is kind of brushed aside in favor of "she's a crack whore, she can't be trusted." Not an actual quote from anyone, but the sentiment floats around and it makes me want to destroy the entire internet.
People that aren't perceived as having any credibility can be raped too. Homeless people, drug addicts, compulsive liars. It doesn't just exist for good girls who tell the truth all the time and don't touch coke. I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation if she came up on charges without there being enough evidence that she was actually making it up? I think Dale would, and I'd like to think #fan and Destor would, but it's something to give some thought about whether or not this is really about a lack of evidence, or just what the charge implies.
Sepholio
05-17-2018, 07:56 AM
What doesn't sit well with me is that people want to assign some statistical value to each party as to which is more likely to be the liar. Each case is different, each person is different; women being statistically less likely to lie than men in this situation should have no bearing whatsoever on a specific case.
I'm not siding with Enzo. I'm not siding against his accuser. I'm erring on the side of caution because some statistical analysis of completely different people who have nothing to do with this case means nothing to me when I'm trying to determine my own personal judgement of this singular situation. And unlike some people, I'm not willing to convict Enzo just because he has a penis which supposedly means he's more likely to be the one spinning a yarn.
Big Vic
05-17-2018, 08:26 AM
I wish the Duke Lacrosse team would weigh in on this.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 08:31 AM
I wish the Duke Lacrosse team would weigh in on this.
Man that whole 30 for 30 was rough to fucking watch.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 11:00 AM
Well, when you misrepresent the other side of the argument so grossly as to talk about ghosts and shit, which you admit is "extreme," you make it pretty easy to vilify your logic. How about you listen to what other people are saying?
No one is saying that Enzo definitely did it. What we're saying is that there not being evidence enough to press charges doesn't mean he didn't. Until those charges can be pressed, he is free man though, so good for him.
That's not misrepresenting the other side. My "raped by a ghost" example, by your logic, shouldn't be discounted because women lying about rape is "statistically rare". It's an extreme example because you guys can't seem to see the obviously flaw in the more subtle example. The point of it is, other factors come into play.
And yes, you're not saying that Enzo definitely did it. But when you keep making it clear "well, he could have still done it because women don't tend to lie about rape", you're clearly implying where the odds lean. Why is my extreme example so crazy? Because there's other factors at play that make it seem unlikely? If so, congrats. You're using the same logic we've been using the entire time. We're on the same page.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 11:07 AM
I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation if she came up on charges without there being enough evidence that she was actually making it up? I think Dale would, and I'd like to think #fan and Destor would, but it's something to give some thought about whether or not this is really about a lack of evidence, or just what the charge implies.
Yes. I would defend a woman if the sex was reversed in this case. And it would have 0 to do with her sex. It wouldn't be until someone comes in and makes it about that by saying "Well, men don't usually lie about rape." and then implies some sexism because you're not #believingmen that it becomes about gender.
Heisenberg
05-17-2018, 11:19 AM
ain't no one pounding no believing men
Dukelorange
05-17-2018, 11:28 AM
I wish the Duke Lacrosse team would weigh in on this.
I wonder if their lives are normal after this. Cause I know the girl isn't doing too well.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 11:33 AM
Yes. I would defend a woman if the sex was reversed in this case. And it would have 0 to do with her sex. It wouldn't be until someone comes in and makes it about that by saying "Well, men don't usually lie about rape." and then implies some sexism because you're not #believingmen that it becomes about gender.
:y:
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 11:35 AM
I wonder if their lives are normal after this. Cause I know the girl isn't doing too well.
Didn't she commit suicide or something? Maybe I have my stories mixed up there.
Either way, no matter what way you swing it that situation was god fucking awful.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 11:38 AM
She's in prison for murder apparently. Didn't see that coming.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 11:43 AM
Oh yeah I think I remember that. Fuck.
Big Vic
05-17-2018, 12:02 PM
The police Sgt on the case committed suicide.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 12:53 PM
Yes. I would defend a woman if the sex was reversed in this case. And it would have 0 to do with her sex. It wouldn't be until someone comes in and makes it about that by saying "Well, men don't usually lie about rape." and then implies some sexism because you're not #believingmen that it becomes about gender.
Why would you even specify that? Odd.
Destor
05-17-2018, 12:56 PM
Why would you even specify that? Odd.
I clearly needs to be after rampant accusations of sexism surrounding this topic
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 12:56 PM
because this conversation has been about gender and sex as much as anything else.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 01:12 PM
That's not misrepresenting the other side. My "raped by a ghost" example, by your logic, shouldn't be discounted because women lying about rape is "statistically rare". It's an extreme example because you guys can't seem to see the obviously flaw in the more subtle example. The point of it is, other factors come into play.
And yes, you're not saying that Enzo definitely did it. But when you keep making it clear "well, he could have still done it because women don't tend to lie about rape", you're clearly implying where the odds lean. Why is my extreme example so crazy? Because there's other factors at play that make it seem unlikely? If so, congrats. You're using the same logic we've been using the entire time. We're on the same page.
Except sexual abusers and ghosts don't exist in the same realm of likelihood? That's just a ridiculous and childish example. The chances of someone being sick aren't out of this world, but the chances of someone being infected with an extra-terrestrial flesh-eating virus specifically out of a sci-fi movie in the 80's come to life with magic is low.
I don't think I made that quote. You're splicing two halves of two different points together. "Women don't usually lie about rape" is one point. That's true. I don't see your big problem with that and why that truth makes you uncomfortable. The second is that "he could have still done it, because there not being enough evidence to convict doesn't mean it didn't happen," which is not an outlandish statement ever. If there are two children who could have eaten the cookies from a cookie jar, and you can't be sure who it was, and they each accuse the other and you don't have the evidence to accuse either one, it doesn't mean that the cookies weren't eaten. In this case: Maybe there were no eaten cookies? Maybe there were? We don't know, but where I disagree is when you say there definitely aren't because you can't be sure an accused party actually did it. You just shouldn't blame them for eating cookies if you aren't sure cookies have been eaten. But you also shouldn't go around calling someone with an empty cookie jar with crumbs in it a liar also.
I think you've been far too biased with your application of what makes it "unlikely." I mean, neither of us has access to any sort of psychological assessment on the girl, but if I remember you were someone saying that because she "bragged" about it in a text, it means she couldn't have not given consent? I'm sure there's a proper name for it, but when people are abused you often see them try to take ownership over that abuse by compartmentalizing it differently in their mind. It's like disassociation, I suppose, but you see it in younger abuse victims all the time. They will almost brag about being hurt or make it seem like no big deal. It doesn't mean nothing's happened to them, man. Not everyone responds with tears at the time.
The only other thing is the guy that says she's a liar. But if he's a liar...
It's dumb. It's really fucking dumb to discuss this like either of us has intimate knowledge of what is happening. I'm just put-off by people so willing to attack the credibility of a woman reporting a crime, of which false reports I believe are still felonies, making it extremely disadvantageous.
Destor
05-17-2018, 01:17 PM
It's dumb. It's really fucking dumb to discuss this like either of us has intimate knowledge of what is happening. I'm just put-off by people so willing to attack the credibility of a woman reporting a crime, of which false reports I believe are still felonies, making it extremely disadvantageous.
The problem is we have equal amounts of evidence that she is reporting a crime as we do that she is committing one. Guess thats not the kind of equality that matters though.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 01:17 PM
I clearly needs to be after rampant accusations of sexism surrounding this topic
Interestingly enough, the only person who has used the word "sexism" since Dale brought this back up is #fan. Methinks biases are creeping in a bit too much.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 01:20 PM
The problem is we have equal amounts of evidence that she is reporting a crime as we do that she is committing one. Guess thats not the kind of equality that matters though.
We're 100% sure she reported a crime. Or do you mean that she is reporting an accurate crime?
Lol, Enzo isn't getting prosecuted right now. So many people are like "Innocent until proven guilty" then when Enzo gets off because there isn't definitive proof that he is guilty they are still beating that drum for some reason.
Destor
05-17-2018, 01:22 PM
We're 100% sure she reported a crime. Or do you mean that she is reporting an accurate crime?
Lol, Enzo isn't getting prosecuted right now. So many people are like "Innocent until proven guilty" then when Enzo gets off because there isn't definitive proof that he is guilty they are still beating that drum for some reason.
We are not sure she reported a crime. We are 100% sure she made an accusation. But since the default in absolutely every instance is "no crime has been committed" im left with saying "no crime has been committed" in the face of no evidence to the contrary.
Destor
05-17-2018, 01:22 PM
Interestingly enough, the only person who has used the word "sexism" since Dale brought this back up is #fan. Methinks biases are creeping in a bit too much.
We dont have to say the word, we all know what this conversation is about. Why are playing semantics games?
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 01:30 PM
Sexism and misogyny are always implied in these discussions.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 01:31 PM
Look, some people in here know what is up, so I don't feel the need to win anyone else over, and I just feel gross talking about this. Here are my final thoughts:
* It is true that women rarely report false sexual assault claims. There is nothing outlandish about this claim. If it makes you uncomfortable, seek help.
* Enzo was accused of sexual assault. It was unlikely to be a false report given statistics. These are not evidence. No one is saying that they are.
* Enzo was released from the WWE because of the compounded issue of the allegations, his disclosure of them, his attitude in general, and probably his lack of talent. See Heath Slater for someone who was accused of sexual harassment/assault, handled it correctly, and still has a job today. This is not a violation of Enzo's right to due process.
* Upon investigaton, it was discovered that there was not enough evidence to charge Enzo. This does not mean he did it, nor that he didn't do it. It means what it suggests -- that there is not enough evidence to charge Enzo. As a result, due to the legal process, Enzo is a free man until more evidence can be uncovered, if it exists at all, if a crime was committed at all.
* Rape allegations should still be taken very seriously, considering the fact that they are not usually fabricated. Men and women with substance abuse problems can be assaulted too, and their past shouldn't dismiss their credibility. A healthy amount of skepticism can be taken whilst still investigating. People in these situations can be preyed upon and can lie about all the circumstances surrounding an event and the core incident can still be true.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 01:35 PM
Look at it like this Noid.
With what we know about the accuser, we've used our intuition and critical thinking skills to say "ehhhh we don't buy it". The lack of evidence for a case only supports this feeling.
Honestly, this is just what we know. We weren't there. We'll likely never know what happened that night.
My main issue is this will stain Enzo's reputation. Given I believe with what has been presented to me that he didn't do it, I think that is awful.
And I'm aware crazy immature drug addicts get raped. In fact, given the lifestyle, probably more frequently than less at-risk people. Still doesn't make this specific lunatic credible. The story seemed to have holes in it from the beginning.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 01:36 PM
Sexism and misogyny are always implied in these discussions.
Nice blanket statement there. I hope it's warm and snug and protects you from all the victimization. God knows that wouldn't be fair. :lol:
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 01:39 PM
Look, some people in here know what is up, so I don't feel the need to win anyone else over, and I just feel gross talking about this. Here are my final thoughts:
Who knows what's up? The #Woke crew?
If you want people to see things your way, you need to have uncomfortable conversations "that make you feel gross".
Last I checked, none of us have sexually assaulted a woman so we're all playing for the good guys. We are just having a real conversation.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 01:39 PM
Nice blanket statement there. I hope it's warm and snug and protects you from all the victimization. God knows that wouldn't be fair. :lol:
what?
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 01:48 PM
Look at it like this Noid.
With what we know about the accuser, we've used our intuition and critical thinking skills to say "ehhhh we don't buy it". The lack of evidence for a case only supports this feeling.
Honestly, this is just what we know. We weren't there. We'll likely never know what happened that night.
My main issue is this will stain Enzo's reputation. Given I believe with what has been presented to me that he didn't do it, I think that is awful.
And I'm aware crazy immature drug addicts get raped. In fact, given the lifestyle, probably more frequently than less at-risk people. Still doesn't make this specific lunatic credible. The story seemed to have holes in it from the beginning.
Okay, I'll hear that. I'm glad you used the word intuition, because I think it's mainly that. I disagree with the critical thinking you've done. I'm not saying that you haven't done it, I just disagree with the process. I think Occam's razor is pretty clear about what the most likely scenario in this is, for example (and it's messy at its tidiest).
I agree with your second statement. We weren't there, and we may not ever know.
That's fair enough. I don't give a shit about Enzo's reputation in this, honestly. Sorry to sound callous, but wasn't she like a drugged-up teenage girl? I can hear Destor saying "Still an adult" now, but surely there must be some more engaging pussy in the world. He's obviously got a touch of the Jerry Lawlers or what have you. I don't have to feel sorry for him putting himself in these situations. And, as I said, TNA has no problem hiring people with sexual assault accusations to their name. It won't make him unemployable or anything. And he lost his job for compounded reasons that are his responsibility. He has not been found guilty unjustly at this point in time.
My main concern is the backflips people will do to go after an alleged victim's credibility. It doesn't make me feel good. At all. I completely agree with you that they are more at risk, which is why statements like "some drugged up crazy" (paraphrasing from around the place) or whatever are just...what? Why would you even go down that road? You could describe Enzo the same way, lol.
Real life often has holes in it. Stories don't always add up 100% when dealing with messes like this. And I hope we can agree that this is a fucking mess. I'd probably not like to associate with anyone in this story. That doesn't mean Enzo deserves to go to prison if he's innocent, and that doesn't mean that this girl is a liar because she's got issues.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 01:52 PM
Who knows what's up? The #Woke crew?
If you want people to see things your way, you need to have uncomfortable conversations "that make you feel gross".
Last I checked, none of us have sexually assaulted a woman so we're all playing for the good guys. We are just having a real conversation.
Not wanting to talk about one thing at a particular point in time is not the same thing as avoiding all uncomfortable conversations though, lol. It's not the duty of everyone all the time to do it about everything.
Would it be inappropriate to make a mike adamle joke in response to your last point? I kid, mike.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 02:10 PM
Why would you even specify that? Odd.
... You literally asked if I would defend a woman in this situation. I said I would regardless of the sex. Now you're questioning why I would specify that it has nothing to do with the person's sex.
You can't be serious.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 02:14 PM
I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation if she came up on charges without there being enough evidence that she was actually making it up?
Yes. I would defend a woman if the sex was reversed in this case. And it would have 0 to do with her sex.
Why would you even specify that? Odd.
This is seriously an exchange that just happened. What the shit.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 02:17 PM
Toddster getting in some offence.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 02:19 PM
Look, I get that Noid feels "weird" about having the conversation and would rather not continue or whatever. That's cool. Whatever. I am gonna need clarification on that exchange though because that was a fucking bizarre response.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:22 PM
This is seriously an exchange that just happened. What the shit.
I said:
I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation if she came up on charges without there being enough evidence that she was actually making it up?
To clarify, I'm talking about false allegations, not rape allegations. I could have been more clear by saying "on charges of filing a false report." I thought that was inherent in "that she was actually making it up?"
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:30 PM
I think skepticism is disproportionately applied in these situations. If you can say you would honestly apply it, good for you. But it was about the standard for evidence, not the subject's sex/gender. That's why I find "it would have nothing to do with sex" (paraphrasing) odd when the answer could have just been "sure." You placed emphasis in a place I didn't expect you to.
Big Vic
05-17-2018, 02:30 PM
Look, some people in here know what is up, so I don't feel the need to win anyone else over, and I just feel gross talking about this. Here are my final thoughts:
* It is true that women rarely report false sexual assault claims. There is nothing outlandish about this claim. If it makes you uncomfortable, seek help.
* Enzo was accused of sexual assault. It was unlikely to be a false report given statistics. These are not evidence. No one is saying that they are.
* Enzo was released from the WWE because of the compounded issue of the allegations, his disclosure of them, his attitude in general, and probably his lack of talent. See Heath Slater for someone who was accused of sexual harassment/assault, handled it correctly, and still has a job today. This is not a violation of Enzo's right to due process.
* Upon investigaton, it was discovered that there was not enough evidence to charge Enzo. This does not mean he did it, nor that he didn't do it. It means what it suggests -- that there is not enough evidence to charge Enzo. As a result, due to the legal process, Enzo is a free man until more evidence can be uncovered, if it exists at all, if a crime was committed at all.
* Rape allegations should still be taken very seriously, considering the fact that they are not usually fabricated. Men and women with substance abuse problems can be assaulted too, and their past shouldn't dismiss their credibility. A healthy amount of skepticism can be taken whilst still investigating. People in these situations can be preyed upon and can lie about all the circumstances surrounding an event and the core incident can still be true.
The statistics of other rape cases have nothing to do with this rape case.
"Sorry Mr. Amore even though there isn't evidence against you in this rape case, It was unlikely to be a false report given statistics. We will still continue to consider you a rapist"
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 02:31 PM
If a woman came up on charges and people were using ridiculous reasoning that has nothing to do with the case then yes, I would defend her. Doesn't change anything.
Also, when you ask "I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation", you're implying sexism. Don't wait for someone else to flat out say it and then act like THEY were the ones bringing sexism into the equation just because they actually used the word first. lol
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:33 PM
"Would you help that old lady cross the road?"
"I'm not doing it because she's a lady!"
"Umm...okay? Are you going to help her though?"
That's how it came off in my mind.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 02:33 PM
I think skepticism is disproportionately applied in these situations. If you can say you would honestly apply it, good for you. But it was about the standard for evidence, not the subject's sex/gender. That's why I find "it would have nothing to do with sex" (paraphrasing) odd when the answer could have just been "sure." You placed emphasis in a place I didn't expect you to.
If it was about the standard of evidence and not the sex/gender then saying "I wonder what would happen if it was the opposite sex/genger..." is odd.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:34 PM
If a woman came up on charges and people were using ridiculous reasoning that has nothing to do with the case then yes, I would defend her. Doesn't change anything.
Also, when you ask "I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation", you're implying sexism. Don't wait for someone else to flat out say it and then act like THEY were the ones bringing sexism into the equation just because they actually used the word first. lol
I explained that the quote was unfinished and clarified. If you hang onto it, I'm going to assume it's because you have nothing else.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 02:34 PM
"Would you help that old lady cross the road?"
"I'm not doing it because she's a lady!"
"Umm...okay? Are you going to help her though?"
That's how it came off in my mind.
lol It was more like
"Would you help that old man cross the road?"
"Yeah"
"What about if it's an old woman?"
"Yeah. Doesn't matter what sex the old person is."
"... Why would you specify that? Odd."
Big Vic
05-17-2018, 02:35 PM
Remember how everyone on TPWW defended Snuka when he wasn't convicted of murdering that women? #GenderBias
Oh wait you don't remember anyone on TPWW defending Snuka?
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 02:36 PM
Look no further than Emmitt Till to understand false rape accusations. Just because it was a race issue as well doesn't mean shit. It's something that can be weaponized given the connotations of being accused of rape.
And yeah. Enzo isn't exactly the most sympathetic of examples, which makes this discussion all the more poignant.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 02:37 PM
Remember how everyone on TPWW defended Snuka when he wasn't convicted of murdering that women? #GenderBias
Oh wait you don't remember anyone on TPWW defending Snuka?
Only destor but that's cuz he's a due process hoss so I respect him stubbornly sticking to his guns.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:37 PM
If it was about the standard of evidence and not the sex/gender then saying "I wonder what would happen if it was the opposite sex/genger..." is odd.
Okay, would you apply the same standard of evidence to the woman in this case should Enzo decide to counter-sue, for example? Or would you assume guilt because she lacks credibility? Rhetorical question. We both know what the answer should be, but it's something to ask yourself.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 02:38 PM
I explained that the quote was unfinished and clarified. If you hang onto it, I'm going to assume it's because you have nothing else.
Your clarification didn't change anything.
If it's about a standard of evidence, I don't care about sex OR type of accusation. You seem to think WE'RE the ones treating it differently because it's a rape accusation which is just insane.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 02:39 PM
Roberto Osuna, the closer of the Toronto Blue Jays has assault charges and a restraining order with a woman accuser. Nobody is defending him in this city. Believe me. With the details we know, it doesn't look good for him and it's very disappointing.
It is a case-by-case basis.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 02:40 PM
Okay, would you apply the same standard of evidence to the woman in this case should Enzo decide to counter-sue, for example? Or would you assume guilt because she lacks credibility? Rhetorical question. We both know what the answer should be, but it's something to ask yourself.
Yes. My basic standard of evidence doesn't change regardless of the accusation. Yours changes if the accusation is rape specifically. Which is ridiculous. That's the whole point we've been trying to make.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:40 PM
lol It was more like
"Would you help that old man cross the road?"
"Yeah"
"What about if it's an old woman?"
"Yeah. Doesn't matter what sex the old person is."
"... Why would you specify that? Odd."
I'm sorry for my part in leaving that as your interpretation. I hope me clarifying cleared things up for you.
Savio
05-17-2018, 02:41 PM
Noid: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:42 PM
Yes. My standard of evidence doesn't change. For anything. Yours changes if the accusation is rape specifically. That's the difference.
No it doesn't. As I've said countless times, Enzo should not be convicted if the evidence isn't there. That doesn't mean that it's logical to suggest she is lying.
How can people not get this?
* Most sexual assault allegations aren't baseless and there is not enough evidence to convict aren't mutually exclusively ideas. They can both be true.
Savio
05-17-2018, 02:43 PM
Noid never liked Enzo.
I'm sure if this story was about Danny Basham he would be defending him to the heavens.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-17-2018, 02:46 PM
The whole thing sucks regardless of what happened. Hate hearing about stuff like this.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:46 PM
Noid: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"
That's cute.
Savio
05-17-2018, 02:47 PM
No it doesn't. As I've said countless times, Enzo should not be convicted if the evidence isn't there. That doesn't mean that it's logical to suggest she is lying.
She has lied quite a bit.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:49 PM
Noid never liked Enzo.
I'm sure if this story was about Danny Basham he would be defending him to the heavens.
Just want to state very clearly that joking or not, the implication that I want Enzo to be a rapist is fucking ludicrous, distasteful, and I have contempt for it. Thanks, you're out.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:50 PM
The whole thing sucks regardless of what happened. Hate hearing about stuff like this.
Yep. Agree with this. :y:
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:51 PM
The statistics of other rape cases have nothing to do with this rape case.
"Sorry Mr. Amore even though there isn't evidence against you in this rape case, It was unlikely to be a false report given statistics. We will still continue to consider you a rapist"
These are not evidence. No one is saying that they are.
That was literally in the quote.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 02:52 PM
No it doesn't. As I've said countless times, Enzo should not be convicted if the evidence isn't there. That doesn't mean that it's logical to suggest she is lying.
How can people not get this?
* Most sexual assault allegations aren't baseless and there is not enough evidence to convict aren't mutually exclusively ideas. They can both be true.
It's completely logical to suggest that a person who has a history of being unstable and lacking credibility might not be credible. It's not "She's definitely lying". It's "She's not credible, so take it with a grain of salt." But for you, simply because he was accused, it needs to be made very clear that he could have still done it because women don't usually lie about being raped. Which is really skeevy. And I still have a feeling if it was some guy universally loved, this conversation wouldn't have started in the first place because no one would be desperate from now til the end of time to point out "Crazy chicks can get raped, too! Daniel Bryan still could have done it!"
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 02:55 PM
Your clarification didn't change anything.
If it's about a standard of evidence, I don't care about sex OR type of accusation. You seem to think WE'RE the ones treating it differently because it's a rape accusation which is just insane.
Actually, I specified in that post that I don't think Dale would treat it differently, and that I hoped you wouldn't. It's just something that is definitely observable out there. You've got your back up like I aimed that at you.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 03:02 PM
Well sometimes I have to speak for Dale because he's getting soft at his age.
Savio
05-17-2018, 03:02 PM
<table class="tborder" style="background: rgb(64, 81, 116); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border: 1px solid rgb(64, 81, 116); font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;" width="100%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="6" border="0" align="center"><thead><tr><td class="tcat" colspan="5" style="background: url("images/gradients/gradient_theadblue.gif") left top repeat-x rgb(51, 102, 153); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Latest Reputation Received</td></tr></thead><tbody id="collapseobj_usercp_reputation"><tr><td class="thead" style="background: url("images/gradients/gradient_theadblue2.gif") left top repeat-x rgb(33, 45, 69); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; padding: 4px;"> </td><td class="thead" style="background: url("images/gradients/gradient_theadblue2.gif") left top repeat-x rgb(33, 45, 69); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; padding: 4px;">Thread</td><td class="thead" style="background: url("images/gradients/gradient_theadblue2.gif") left top repeat-x rgb(33, 45, 69); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; padding: 4px;">Date</td><td class="thead" style="background: url("images/gradients/gradient_theadblue2.gif") left top repeat-x rgb(33, 45, 69); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; padding: 4px;" nowrap="nowrap">Posted By</td><td class="thead" style="background: url("images/gradients/gradient_theadblue2.gif") left top repeat-x rgb(33, 45, 69); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; padding: 4px;">Comment</td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">http://www.tpwwforums.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gif</td><td class="alt1Active" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">WWE releases Enzo Amore (http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?p=5124434#post5124434)</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">05-17-2018 02:54 PM</td><td class="alt1" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">Noid (http://www.tpwwforums.com/member.php?u=266)</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">Not provable about the claim. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence though, right?</td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">http://www.tpwwforums.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gif</td><td class="alt1Active" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">WWE releases Enzo Amore (http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?p=5124431#post5124431)</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">05-17-2018 02:50 PM</td><td class="alt1" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">Noid (http://www.tpwwforums.com/member.php?u=266)</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">Ew</td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">http://www.tpwwforums.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gif</td><td class="alt1Active" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">WWE releases Enzo Amore (http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?p=5124427#post5124427)</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">05-17-2018 02:47 PM</td><td class="alt1" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">Noid (http://www.tpwwforums.com/member.php?u=266)</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">I hate the religious stuff, so I'm just going to neg-rep that misattribution. Also, you are being a dick and trivializing it while many are trying to have a somewhat serious conversation.</td></tr></tbody></table>
What religious stuff?
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_w5JqQLqqTc" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 03:04 PM
Oof. Neg repping. Clearly Noid hasn't gone soft at his age.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 03:05 PM
It's completely logical to suggest that a person who has a history of being unstable and lacking credibility might not be credible. It's not "She's definitely lying". It's "She's not credible, so take it with a grain of salt." But for you, simply because he was accused, it needs to be made very clear that he could have still done it because women don't usually lie about being raped. Which is really skeevy. And I still have a feeling if it was some guy universally loved, this conversation wouldn't have started in the first place because no one would be desperate from now til the end of time to point out "Crazy chicks can get raped, too! Daniel Bryan still could have done it!"
This is where we diverge big time. "Lacking credibility" is a conclusion you're working back from. Someone with a history of being unstable can still have credibility, even if there are times they are not credible. You don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater there -- it's a massive generalization.
We're in agreement that it doesn't mean "she's definitely lying," but where we diverge is where you say "take it with a grain of salt." THAT is skeevy. You can still take something seriously without throwing someone into prison for it automatically. I feel the need to stress that "crazy chicks can get raped too," because you have very strongly implied that if a woman is crazy her claim of rape lacks validity. I am sorry if I have misinterpreted you on that as you did me earlier, but I think that's even present in the "grain of salt" comment right there. Maybe I am placing too much weight on your specific choice of words there? I dunno, man. Dale could identify that women with substance abuse problems and a history of lies in the past could be more at risk. I don't see why it's such a problem for you.
And I said it to Savio, so I'll say it you: I resent the implication that I wouldn't take the same line with Daniel Bryan. I took the same line with Rich Swann, and I'll take the same line if it happens with someone else.
Innovator
05-17-2018, 03:05 PM
Oof. Neg repping. Clearly Noid hasn't gone sawft at his age.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 03:07 PM
Oof. Neg repping. Clearly Noid hasn't gone soft at his age.
I only do it for things I find particularly distasteful. Not just incorrect things, things I don't like, or things I disagree with. I'm glad Savio cared enough to share.
Savio
05-17-2018, 03:17 PM
I bet if some dude accused Alexa Bliss of raping them Noid would consider her guilty despite the low stats.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 03:20 PM
My crazy, homeless lady down the street analogy still applies here. We can take out the ghosts. If she runs up and down the block saying she was raped by John Cena, I think it's fair to be more skeptical than you would if a more level-headed, trustworthy human being said the same. And that's the same with literally any crime.
And at no point should "Statistically, in other cases, the guy is usually guilty" come in to play. And without a doubt, going out of your way to make it clear that John Cena could definitely have raped that crazy homeless lady because "statistically" the accused is usually guilty is really fucked. Without calling him guilty, you're absolutely tying a stigma of guilt to him based on nothing but an accusation that can be made by anyone at any time.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 03:21 PM
I feel the need to clarify this:
* My legal opinion is that Enzo is not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't think I disagree with anyone here.
* My intuition tells me that this is a fucking mess, it's not all on the level, and Enzo is, to some degree, likely a piece of shit. I agree with Dale on this being a mess, but I think we disagree on our opinion of Enzo's reputation, because our intuitions tell us different things about this situation.
* Statistics are not evidence, but they do reflect an observable world and do imply that when a woman makes an allegation, you take it seriously and then cycle back to the legal position on whether or not there is enough evidence for it. This is where I disagree with #fan, because he seems to think that you do not take an accuser seriously if they have a history of lying or substance abuse. I don't think that's fair process.
The statistic that most accusations are not baseless is not evidence itself and does not mean you forego due process. You can investigate as if someone is telling the truth without judging the accused as if they were.
Savio
05-17-2018, 03:26 PM
I don't take an accuser seriously when she has lied about rape in the past, bragged to her friends about sleeping with Enzo, "Faked a pregnancy" when someone broke up with her, and has insufficient evidence of rape.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 03:39 PM
My crazy, homeless lady down the street analogy still applies here. We can take out the ghosts. If she runs up and down the block saying she was raped by John Cena, I think it's fair to be more skeptical than you would if a more level-headed, trustworthy human being said the same. And that's the same with literally any crime.
And at no point should "Statistically, in other cases, the guy is usually guilty" come in to play. And without a doubt, going out of your way to make it clear that John Cena could definitely have raped that crazy homeless lady because "statistically" the accused is usually guilty is really fucked. Without calling him guilty, you're absolutely tying a stigma of guilt to him based on nothing but an accusation that can be made by anyone at any time.
I think a healthy amount of skepticism with both can be applied. More or less are trivial in that situation. If it came down to the word of a reasonable and sane person against and unreasonable and insane one, of course you'd probably start with the reasonable person's. I don't see it as relevant to this case. If a choir girl said that Enzo raped her, would your stance really change? Should it change? I think we disagree here, because I think both should be taken seriously and don't see them on a versus screen. And if they both accused Enzo, then I think that looks worse for Enzo.
And why don't more crazies accuse John Cena of rape? Or Randy Orton? Or Shawn Michaels? Or Shane McMahon? I'm not saying if they did it would be true, but why doesn't that happen? Probably largely because it doesn't actually happen often at all, is disadvantageous to the party making the false claim (and a crime), and it's actually really hard to accuse someone of something if they don't have the means and opportunity, have an alibi, there are other witnesses, etc. I'm not making that as a legal argument -- of course the onus is not on the accused -- but just as a common sense one.
"John Cena raped me."
"When and where?"
"Um, Saturday at 9pm."
"He was on the other side of the world then." Easily ruled out.
When you say that quote shouldn't come into play, in what context are you referring? Because I think it is absolutely relevant when discussing it with people who claim "Pfft, she's lying. Enzo is a Superstar he can fuck anyone he wants," or when people claim that false allegations are rampant. Or when they claim it actually gives a woman power.
If John Cena was with the homeless lady, had sex with the homeless lady, did drugs with the homeless lady, the lady was admitted to the hospital with head injuries, etc., then yeah, I'd say the same thing in a conversation about it if people were like "Nah, impossible." I wouldn't go emailing strangers about it or drag it into every conversation. And given the woman's status and possible mental health, having "consensual sex" with a woman in that state could be questionable too. It's not as clean an analogy as you are making it out to be.
The thing is #fan those accusations aren't made by anyone at anytime. That's the whole point of pointing out that these things usually have something to them, dude. They're usually very serious things because people drag their names through the mud because "Look, this part here doesn't look true." We're going in circles now.
You're tying a stigma to her because of her mental health or whatever. I'm tying a stigma to Enzo because it's possible he raped a girl. We've both "I'm not saying she's definitely lying" or "I'm not saying he definitely did it." Let's just agree we're both assholes without the full knowledge of what happened and are projecting our own biases onto a situation that is dark and messy with no winner, whichever way you slice it.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 03:48 PM
You're tying a stigma to her because of her mental health or whatever. I'm tying a stigma to Enzo because it's possible he raped a girl.
There's a huge, enormous, universe-sized difference between "tying a stigma" to someone based on their own history/credibility/personality/addictions/mental health and tying a stigma to someone because they were simply accused of something. I think that idea that there's no difference is where the problem with this whole conversation lies.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 03:50 PM
I don't take an accuser seriously when she has lied about rape in the past, bragged to her friends about sleeping with Enzo, "Faked a pregnancy" when someone broke up with her, and has insufficient evidence of rape.
And in this is a problem:
* Lying about rape in the past does not mean you are lying about it now. That's not something you can say with 100% certainty, just as people here are so evangelical about defending Enzo because it's not 100% certain he did it. The best predictor for future behavior is past behavior, yes, but as Dale and I mentioned earlier, people with messed up pasts are often more at risk; not less. It has nothing to do with the factual nature of what happened.
* Bragging about someone haven't sex with you, again, does not necessarily mean it was consensual. I wish I knew the name for it, but especially in young people, you see victims glamorize their abuse. It's "no biggie; happens all the time." "He's famous, it's cool." "I didn't say yes, but I didn't say no." "Yeah, it was fun, ha-ha-ha-ha, how cool that I got to do that thing, huh, huh?" It can take a while for the processing to occur. I AM NOT SAYING THIS DEFINITELY HAPPENED, IT WOULD JUST NOT BE UNUSUAL.
* Faking a pregnancy is irrelevant.
* Not all rape victims provide photographic and indisputable evidence of their assault to police for the convenience of an eventual trial, unfortunately.
But you go with what brought you to the dance.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 03:52 PM
There's a huge, enormous, universe-sized difference between "tying a stigma" to someone based on their own history/credibility/personality/addictions/mental health and tying a stigma to someone because they were simply accused of something. I think that idea that there's no difference is where the problem with this whole conversation lies.
Accused of something that people don't normally accuse people of because then their history/credibility/personality/addictions/mental health are dragged through the mud. I think the oversimplification is disingenuous and you were premature to take aim at her.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 03:55 PM
* Lying about rape in the past does not mean you are lying about it now.
Wait. So "Women tend not lie about rape" can be thrown around as meaningful in this conversation but "This woman definitely lies about rape" can't?
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 03:57 PM
Accused of something that people don't normally accuse people of because then their history/credibility/personality/addictions/mental health are dragged through the mud. I think the oversimplification is disingenuous and you were premature to take aim at her.
Just because people don't normally do it doesn't mean they didn't lie about it here.
See what I did there.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 03:57 PM
If I can get one thing clear to anyone objective reading this, it's that it's not fun accusing someone of rape. It's not something easy or rewarding to do, and it doesn't come with a whole lot of benefits. So when someone tries to slip past the insinuation that "anyone can accuse anyone at anytime," do think about it for a second and think "but would they?"
Maybe they would? Maybe there's nothing to it? Okay. That person probably needs help more than they need ridicule though. But don't fall for that reduction of it to being a few words someone can shoot out without consequence.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 03:59 PM
Wait. So "Women tend not lie about rape" can be thrown around as meaningful in this conversation but "This woman definitely lies about rape" can't?
"This woman has definitely lied about rape" is not the same as "this woman is lying about rape." You know this, #fan. Come on. And if you're saying it, I guess it must be okay to say? I don't think think it's valid or on-point, but okay.
Savio
05-17-2018, 04:00 PM
And in this is a problem:
* Lying about rape in the past does not mean you are lying about it now.
But when they have lied in the past and have no evidence now I would not believe them.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 04:01 PM
How are you not seeing the contradiction in using "Women tend to not lie about rape" as a meaningful point while also dismissing "This woman definitely lies about rape" as insignificant?
If the first is significant, then you'd have to do some crazy rationalization to claim the latter isn't. It's either that or neither is significant.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 04:03 PM
But when they have lied in the past and have no evidence now I would not believe them.
Cool. :) :y:
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 04:07 PM
How are you not seeing the contradiction in using "Women tend to not lie about rape" as a meaningful point while also dismissing "This woman definitely lies about rape" as insignificant?
If the first is significant, then you'd have to do some crazy rationalization to claim the latter isn't. It's either that or neither is significant.
Lies and lied are two different tenses. If you're suggesting that because she lied about it once she must be again, that's false. If you're suggesting she lied about it once, therefore she has no moral qualms doing it, then it's a stronger point and problematic, but it doesn't do anything to dismiss the severity of a separate incident.
You all took The Boy Who Cried Wolf way too seriously. You do remember there was an actual wolf at the end, right? The moral is to not tell lies so people believe you, but it's also there to give us the wider perspective too, in that there might actually be a wolf.
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 04:13 PM
Jesus. Noid. Listen.
I'm not claiming she lied once therefore she must always be lying/is definitely lying. Stop and read what I'm saying.
You think "Women tend to not lie about rape" is a meaningful point. Because she's a woman making a rape accusation therefore you're comparing the likelihood of her lying to what typically ends up being the case when a woman makes a rape accusation.
Yet you're dismissing "She DOES lie about rape" (Not that she 100% must always be lying. That she indeed has been known to lie about rape.) as meaningless. That's a glaring contradiction. You want to give her the benefit of all other women who don't lie about rape but ignore the DIRECT example of HER... THE ONE WOMAN WHO IS ACTUALLY BEING DISCUSSED... lying about rape.
It's a contradiction. How is it not?
Sepholio
05-17-2018, 04:15 PM
If the fact that they are two different tenses has some kind of meaning, then your statistical analysis rhetoric is completely useless. Seeing as statistics are based off of prior incidents and this is a present incident...well that's 2 different tenses now isn't it?
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 06:14 PM
Jesus. Noid. Listen.
I'm not claiming she lied once therefore she must always be lying/is definitely lying. Stop and read what I'm saying.
You think "Women tend to not lie about rape" is a meaningful point. Because she's a woman making a rape accusation therefore you're comparing the likelihood of her lying to what typically ends up being the case when a woman makes a rape accusation.
Yet you're dismissing "She DOES lie about rape" (Not that she 100% must always be lying. That she indeed has been known to lie about rape.) as meaningless. That's a glaring contradiction. You want to give her the benefit of all other women who don't lie about rape but ignore the DIRECT example of HER... THE ONE WOMAN WHO IS ACTUALLY BEING DISCUSSED... lying about rape.
It's a contradiction. How is it not?
Because people change, dude. You can't divide people into binary categories like "liars" and "truthtellers." It's a contradiction only if you're looking at her personality like a logic puzzle, which it is clearly not.
I agree that it makes it problematic, and that skepticism should be taken with this case (as has been done legally), but that doesn't mean you dismiss her outright.
To steer it back to what was originally being discussed: Dale is worried about Enzo's reputation. I am not, because I'm still suss on the whole thing. And I think that's why you won't find that the WWE won't welcome him back and you won't see any WWE contracted personnel publicly congratulating Enzo. I don't mean to appeal to authority, but I think that is really common sense in a situation like this. Enzo's rep is one of the lowest priorities in this for me.
That's all. :)
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 06:20 PM
Absolutely nothing about this woman could change, and if they turned up more evidence and she would be just as valid a victim as anyone else. That's what's grossing me out about this. That they didn't turn up enough evidence is very good for a presumably innocent Enzo -- good for him -- but these comments about her character have nothing to do with the factual nature of the case. If something awful happened and there was evidence, she could remain exactly the same and it wouldn't make a difference. So why are we even discussing it?
Noid is the man who would fight for your honor,
Noid will be the hero you're dreaming of.
You'll live forever, knowing together
that you did it all for the glory of love.
Just like a Noid in shining armor,
from a long time ago.
Just in time Noid will save the day,
take you to his castle far away.
Ruien
05-17-2018, 07:38 PM
My lord. Can someone summarize the last 3 pages for me? So much to read.
Ruien
05-17-2018, 07:38 PM
Feels odd to see Meatballs debating anything too.
My Final Heaven
05-17-2018, 07:48 PM
My lord. Can someone summarize the last 3 pages for me? So much to read.
It's a 3page arguement over the sematics of the tense used in "has lied about rape" vs "does lie about rape", because Noid doesn't like Enzo Amore as a person / wrestler.
No headway's been made from either side so far.
My Final Heaven
05-17-2018, 07:52 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nXlOWjobOZU" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I hate Enzo and I'm glad he's gone the end
mike adamle
05-17-2018, 09:36 PM
I have a feeling Noid has lied about being raped a few times for attention
#1-norm-fan
05-17-2018, 10:31 PM
Because people change, dude. You can't divide people into binary categories like "liars" and "truthtellers." It's a contradiction only if you're looking at her personality like a logic puzzle, which it is clearly not.
What are you doing when you say "women tend not to lie about being raped"? You're assigning odds based on the history of accusers. Vic is assigning odds based on the history of her as an accuser. You're doing the same... exact... thing. Except Vic's example is actually much more pertinent to the case because it takes into account the exact woman we're talking about and not just women in general. You're rationalizing to keep believing what you're dead set on believing. The contradiction is clear as day though. Any argument you have to tear down Vic's quote can be used to tear down yours.
Mr. Nerfect
05-17-2018, 10:32 PM
Stepping back from this a little bit, I do understand the position those other guys have. You can look at her past behavior and decide she is unsavory. I don’t agree with this. Inherent in the argument is the reality that either someone was raped or someone is lying about being raped. I don’t feel comfortable calling someone a liar about that just because there isn’t enough evidence to put the other party away. It’s absolutely fucked, as Dale said a while back.
Smeat had the sense to stop banging his head against the wall a while ago, haha.
Emperor Smeat
05-17-2018, 10:50 PM
Police released their reasons why the case was dismissed via a recent statement from Enzo's accuser. Pretty much was a "he says, she says" type situation made worse because it became public.
Only hard evidence police had was both being in the same room during the timeline and sex occurring. They couldn't get enough details or evidence afterwards nor from others possibly involved that night.
<blockquote class="instagram-media" data-instgrm-captioned data-instgrm-permalink="https://www.instagram.com/p/Bi36Muujk9u/" data-instgrm-version="8" style=" background:#FFF; border:0; border-radius:3px; box-shadow:0 0 1px 0 rgba(0,0,0,0.5),0 1px 10px 0 rgba(0,0,0,0.15); margin: 1px; max-width:658px; padding:0; width:99.375%; width:-webkit-calc(100% - 2px); width:calc(100% - 2px);"><div style="padding:8px;"> <div style=" background:#F8F8F8; line-height:0; margin-top:40px; padding:50% 0; text-align:center; width:100%;"> <div style=" background:url(data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACwAAAAsCAMAAAApWqozAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAAAFzUkdCAK7OHOkAAAAMUExURczMzPf399fX1+bm5mzY9AMAAADiSURBVDjLvZXbEsMgCES5/P8/t9FuRVCRmU73JWlzosgSIIZURCjo/ad+EQJJB4Hv8BFt+IDpQoCx1wjOSBFhh2XssxEIYn3ulI/6MNReE07UIWJEv8UEOWDS88LY97kqyTliJKKtuYBbruAyVh5wOHiXmpi5we58Ek028czwyuQdLKPG1Bkb4NnM+VeAnfHqn1k4+GP T6uGQcvu2h2OVuIf/gWUFyy8OWEpdyZSa3aVCqpVoVvzZZ2VTnn2wU8qzVjDDetO90GSy9mVLqtgYSy231MxrY6I2gGqjrTY0L8fxCxfCBbhWrsYYAAAA AElFTkSuQmCC); display:block; height:44px; margin:0 auto -44px; ██████████relative; top:-22px; width:44px;"></div></div> <p style=" margin:8px 0 0 0; padding:0 4px;"> <a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/Bi36Muujk9u/" style=" color:#000; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; line-height:17px; text-decoration:none; word-wrap:break-word;" target="_blank">There are no words to describe what this feels like... To know that my rapist is walking away from this, free of charges, and will continue to be a part of society today. I have said this many times, and I will say it again: I did this for sexual assault survivors/victims who did not/do not have the courage to speak up about their stories. For those who feared for their lives & knew that if they spoke up, they would be killed. For those who’s assailant was a family member. For those who were set up to be assaulted. No matter the differences in our stories, we are one in the same. I did this in hopes that by coming out about what happened to me on October 19, 2017 & the correct legal measures taken, that my story may end in a little bit of hope with my assailant being prosecuted. To my disbelief & complete misfortune, this did not happen. I was so mentally shaken up in every way possible after the night that it happened that i waited 4 days to report it to the police. Hence the DNA samples taken were 4 days old & would have had to survive a shower & regular visits to the bathroom. That is where I messed up in this process, but I don’t blame myself. I have been told that I did this for money, fame, out of spite, and to those that believe these things, all I can say is you are very wrong. I am a different person today. I used to have anxiety, but since the incident it has escalated to a much higher level. I have frequent panic attacks. I rarely can handle any interaction with men. I wake up most nights in a complete panic & have to use coping mechanisms to relieve the emotions. I have PTSD & it shows itself in a variation of ways. I’m married to a woman named Depression & she is my lover. People get jealous & frustrated because she gets all of me. Most days we just lay in bed & refuse to get up. She takes from the quality of my life & tonight she was begging me to self harm. I have been hiding from my phone all day, dodging the hate. But when I came home, it was overwhelming. I wanted nothing more than that release. My favorite coping mechanism is writing, so I decided to share an up-to-date side of my story. Eric Ardnt is not innocent, & I AM A SURVIVOR.</a></p> <p style=" color:#c9c8cd; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; line-height:17px; margin-bottom:0; margin-top:8px; overflow:hidden; padding:8px 0 7px; text-align:center; text-overflow:ellipsis; white-space:nowrap;">A post shared by <a href="https://www.instagram.com/missgucciking/" style=" color:#c9c8cd; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; line-height:17px;" target="_blank"> </a> (@missgucciking) on <time style=" font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; line-height:17px;" datetime="2018-05-17T09:30:25+00:00">May 17, 2018 at 2:30am PDT</time></p></div></blockquote>
<script async defer src="//www.instagram.com/embed.js"></script>
I will continue to ask this question. Why is she releasing statements and not a lawyer. At no point has a lawyer released a statement on her behalf, and that is truely befuddling. If she is serious, why has she not had a lawyer represent her? I would love to know this answer. I want to know the name of the lawyer who is representing her. If there is no lawyer, than this is all bullshit.
There is not one lawyer that would be letting her release her own statements right now. Not one. My guess... Lawyers took a look at this case ( bloodsuckers they are. ) and determined there was no case and they could not extract money out of Enzo. And yes. There is money to be extracted out of Enzo. Current money and future earnings can be extracted.
The fact that she's releasing her own statements are so damning in this entire thing.
I'll go further on this.
I think Enzo is going to get hired back into the WWE. Not because they have to in any way. But because this whole thing is sounding like a joke. Did they have issues with Enzo before hand, sure. But this entire rape case seems like a sham. Does this woman even have a lawyer? It all makes zero sense. He looks completely innocent and he's done everything he should have which is keep his fucking mouth shut and let his lawyer do his job.
Case closed.
Emperor Smeat
05-17-2018, 11:49 PM
I will continue to ask this question. Why is she releasing statements and not a lawyer. At no point has a lawyer released a statement on her behalf, and that is truely befuddling. If she is serious, why has she not had a lawyer represent her? I would love to know this answer. I want to know the name of the lawyer who is representing her. If there is no lawyer, than this is all bullshit.
Unless its a very high profile case or incident (ex. Trump, Cosby, etc), i'd assume getting a lawyer at that stage isn't a common thing to do. It does make it a lot easier to attack the accuser's credibility and her actions didn't help at least in the public sphere.
Enzo needed one sooner than she did just because he had a lot more to lose if he spoke out publicly without legal advice. I'd also assume its easier to find lawyers willing to defend these cases than prosecute them prior to criminal charges being filed.
Unless its a very high profile case or incident (ex. Trump, Cosby, etc), i'd assume getting a lawyer at that stage isn't a common thing to do. It does make it a lot easier to attack the accuser's credibility and her actions didn't help at least in the public sphere.
Enzo needed one sooner than she did just because he had a lot more to lose if he spoke out publicly without legal advice. I'd also assume its easier to find lawyers willing to defend these cases than prosecute them prior to criminal charges being filed.
This is a high profile case based on his earnings and potential earnings. Lawyers have been retained for much less.
Enzo needed one sooner than she did just because he had a lot more to lose if he spoke out publicly without legal advice. I'd also assume its easier to find lawyers willing to defend these cases than prosecute them prior to criminal charges being filed.
You're wrong. There are no shortage of lawyers willing to prosecute a rape case against anyone that even sniffs fame.
Lawyers are considered bloodsuckers for a reason. They are like sharks in the water. If they smell blood, they swarm at it. This is a case that a lawyer should be swarming to take. Which leaves me with my original question. Who is her lawyer?
If she dont have a lawyer, something is seriously wrong here. If she does and that lawyer is letting her release her own statements, which appears to be the case, that lawyer is the worst lawyer of all time.
There should be lawyers coming out of the fucking woodworks to take this case if they think it's legit.
I dont think they thought it was legit.
Mr. Nerfect
05-18-2018, 03:26 AM
Given that it is a he said/she said scenario, I don’t think many would think it winnable right now.
Ruien
05-18-2018, 08:11 AM
If she dont have a lawyer, something is seriously wrong here. If she does and that lawyer is letting her release her own statements, which appears to be the case, that lawyer is the worst lawyer of all time.
You realize she would be represented by the DA? Why would she pay for a lawyer? Unless she was going to civil court paying for a lawyer is a waste of money.
Do you think 99% of people reporting crimes should not he taken seriously because they dont have a lawyer?
Savio
05-18-2018, 09:05 AM
Woman makes false rape/sexual assault accusations against 15 people (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/24/woman-jailed-10-years-false-rape-claims-jemma-beale)
Statistically it's unlikely she is lying.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-18-2018, 09:39 AM
The stats don't lie, Savio.
Innovator
05-18-2018, 09:45 AM
And they spell disaster for you at Sacrifice
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-18-2018, 09:50 AM
And I do agree, of course statistically woman would not lie about rape. Why? Because lying about rape is fucking insane.
But statistically, Philomena HAS lied about rape and being pregnant, so statistically she herself is more likely to lie about rape.
Mind you, like Fan even pointed it out it certainly doesn't 100% mean she is lying. But compound it with a lack of evidence and a bunch of other funky shit that went down (ie. her former friend being like 'you did not get raped') the whole thing was fishy to begin with. She is obviously dealing with some kind of mental illness so hopefully she gets the help she needs.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-18-2018, 10:01 AM
Well I guess this young lady is telling the truth about lying (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23532216/san-francisco-49ers-reuben-foster-accuser-says-lied-alleged-domestic-violence-incident?sf189786812=1)
Savio
05-18-2018, 10:12 AM
I feel like if someone has something to gain on lying about it they might do so.
Do I believe Bill Cosby raped 60 women? No. Do I believe he raped 59? Yes.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-18-2018, 10:20 AM
I'd say Cosby has probably raped well over 100 women tbh
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-18-2018, 10:21 AM
He's been a sexual predator pretty much his entire adult life by the sounds of it. fkn grawss.
Evil Vito
05-18-2018, 10:35 AM
Fuck Bill Cosby
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-18-2018, 10:36 AM
hopefully he dies in prison. Preferably via shanking
Sepholio
05-18-2018, 10:46 AM
Shanked by a penis, maybe.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-18-2018, 10:47 AM
too old an wrinkly.
You realize she would be represented by the DA? Why would she pay for a lawyer? Unless she was going to civil court paying for a lawyer is a waste of money.
Do you think 99% of people reporting crimes should not he taken seriously because they dont have a lawyer?
Yes i do. If you're not going for the money, you're dumb.
I think it's possible Bill Cosby made certain there was a single droplet of his cum in every Jello Pudding cup ever made.
We have all been raped by William Cosby.
You realize she would be represented by the DA? Why would she pay for a lawyer? Unless she was going to civil court paying for a lawyer is a waste of money.
Do you think 99% of people reporting crimes should not he taken seriously because they dont have a lawyer?
She's most likely not be represented because as far as I can see, no charges have been filed. But even is she was, what competent DA in this country would allow her to release her own statements?
None.
BigCrippyZ
05-18-2018, 03:26 PM
She's most likely not be represented because as far as I can see, no charges have been filed. But even is she was, what competent DA in this country would allow her to release her own statements?
None.
1. District and state attorneys don't represent criminal victims personally (they represent all the citizens of the state or district) and so cannot give legal advice to individuals, let alone control their conduct, regardless if they're criminal victims.
2. No attorney, whether they're representing a client personally in a civil or criminal matter, can control the conduct of their clients. Under the rules of professional conduct an attorney can only inform clients as to the likely consequences of certain conduct and advise for or against the client choosing to take certain actions or engage in certain conduct.
In this case, if she had one, the only thing this woman's attorney could do is inform her of the likely consequences of her releasing any statements, offer to write (or at least assist in writing, and releasing) a statement on her behalf, advise her as to whether or not she should release a statement, inform her that if she chose to ignore said advice, the attorney may choose to terminate the attorney-client relationship, and finally, if she did ignore the advice, the attorney could then actually take action to terminate the attorney-client relationship.
Ruien
05-18-2018, 04:06 PM
Never know if RP is being silly or just never received an education outside of a public school in Indy.
Mr. Nerfect
05-18-2018, 08:43 PM
Lawyers are considered bloodsuckers for a reason. They are like sharks in the water. If they smell blood, they swarm at it. This is a case that a lawyer should be swarming to take. Which leaves me with my original question. Who is her lawyer?
If lawyers are bloodsuckers, then why would they care if it were bullshit or not?
Mr. Nerfect
05-18-2018, 08:44 PM
He's been a sexual predator pretty much his entire adult life by the sounds of it. fkn grawss.
Completely ruined Fat Albert for me.
Mr. Nerfect
05-18-2018, 09:17 PM
And I do agree, of course statistically woman would not lie about rape. Why? Because lying about rape is fucking insane.
But statistically, Philomena HAS lied about rape and being pregnant, so statistically she herself is more likely to lie about rape.
Mind you, like Fan even pointed it out it certainly doesn't 100% mean she is lying. But compound it with a lack of evidence and a bunch of other funky shit that went down (ie. her former friend being like 'you did not get raped') the whole thing was fishy to begin with. She is obviously dealing with some kind of mental illness so hopefully she gets the help she needs.
You're right, but why is it insane? It's not only a mental thing to lie about rape, or a moral thing, but a pragmatic thing. Look how quick people were to jump on anything that made her story appear to be shaky from a cohesive narrative perspective (which real life doesn't behave as anyway).
Argh, I know what you are saying in your second statement, but I just disagree. Not on the whole point. Has she lied? Sure. Is that awful? Sure. That's not the same as saying she is more likely to lie. It says something about her character as an even younger teenager, sure, but I don't know if it qualifies as a pattern of behavior or as something that discredits a claim. As I said to #1-wwf-fan earlier: If it were a choice between her and a unscrupulous individual and their stories were in complete contradiction to each other, I might be inclined to predict the honest person telling the truth whilst still doing an investigation. But, as cunty Savio seems to be relishing in doing, there are exceptions to everything. I know that when I was younger, my honesty paid off and got someone into trouble because they had a reputation of telling fibs. I'm ashamed of that to this day, but the amount of women who have lied about being raped and then get raped is probably significant enough within that marginal statistic to warrant not coloring all women who lie about rape once as women who lie about rape 100 times.
Does that make sense? I'm not saying she isn't lying because of stats. Please don't run us down that path again, because I am likely to get distracted by it, haha. My sole disagreement here is almost semantic (well, not really -- I can't think of the term I want though -- just woke up) on how we interpret statistics in this case. I think the position you're taking in this one, while I said I can understand it earlier (and I can), is way too absolute. And I think this is really our only point of contention, to be honest:
* Do you take a complaint from someone with a troublesome past with a "grain of salt" as #1-wwf-fan said, or do you take it seriously and let the falsehoods in it fall out on their own?
Personally, I go with the latter option, because I believe that false accusations are extremely hard to maintain, and that frankly the paranoia of men who worry about this does stem from misogyny in society and culture. As I said earlier, all you need is an alibi, another witness or some contradictory evidence (not as an onus, but as something that completely eliminates the accusation from the realm of possibility) and you've completely exposed someone as a felon. And that's a huge part of what makes lying about rape insane. Not impossible; just insane.
The problem with the grain of salt approach is that too many people fall through the cracks. People with rough pasts, substance abuse issues or that are simply coming up against a man that "couldn't/wouldn't do that." We know enough now that lots of the "couldn't/wouldn't" is bullshit, unfortunately. You don't need to change "innocent until proven guilty" in a legal sense, or shift the burden of proof. You don't need to throw everyone accused in jail on the assumption that the accuser is telling the truth because of stats (what a weapon that would be). It's just simply an attitude towards an accusation from the get-go. And to be perfectly honest, I think it's common sense: We'll treat it seriously.
I guess we depart further on where that serious line is. Some would have you believe that if you can prove she's lied about it in the past, then that's it. I don't agree with that for a second. Crying wolf and all that. And to be honest, and you used this word earlier, I think it's an intuition thing. What bothers me is a lot of people took the "what a liar" position as soon as this story came out (even before evidence of lying), which is gross to me. From what I've gathered about this case, in particular, Enzo had sex with a teenage girl that was drugged up, possibly because he was drugged up, and she went to the hospital and claimed later it was non-consensual after texting her friends about it. It's a fucking mess, but it's not not serious (what a serious sentence). Even without the claims of rape, it's still messy. I can completely understand why WWE has distanced themselves from this guy, and I'll take whatever shots at the company I can, but I think they are completely in the right on this.
To your original point: Will people always think of Enzo as a rapist? I can't speak for anyone else. The original surge here was counter to that and seemed extra focused on protesting Enzo's innocence because it was he said/she said. I think we're both talking about larger communities. Some might, I guess. But my feelings with this are dark because we just don't know. It's a situation we're agnostic on, and I think it's irresponsible for anyone to take any certain stance on it re: guilt versus she's lying. And I don't think proving her a liar proves she's lying about this. It proves that she is capable of lying, and that she has lied -- but that's like throwing a guy into prison because there was an armed robbery and he robbed a place a few years ago. It's just a bit short-sighted and tunnel-visioned for me in a ironic turnabout from what I've been accused of by assuming she must be telling the truth because stats don't support the claim that she's "probably lying." Which is not what I've said, by the way.
Do I think of Enzo as a rapist? An uncomfortable thing stemming from this is that I don't know how to think of Enzo. I'm not comfortable dismissing Philomena's claims, and I'm not comfortable saying "Yes, he definitely did." It's a suspect situation and there is a cloud over it. I can put it aside intellectually and when criticizing Enzo in the future, remember that it is there but not hold it against him like a conviction of which there was plenty of ample evidence. But it's also quite hard to ignore the whole mess and pretend that what obviously happened was that Enzo had consensual sex with a mentally stable participant and that everyone was happy and she had a mental break two days later and filed charges against him that we can all laugh at, ha-ha. I don't think it has to be one or the other, because it's one of those situations where it's not clearly one or the other.
Mr. Nerfect
05-18-2018, 09:22 PM
And I do agree, of course statistically woman would not lie about rape. Why? Because lying about rape is fucking insane.
But statistically, Philomena HAS lied about rape and being pregnant, so statistically she herself is more likely to lie about rape.
Mind you, like Fan even pointed it out it certainly doesn't 100% mean she is lying. But compound it with a lack of evidence and a bunch of other funky shit that went down (ie. her former friend being like 'you did not get raped') the whole thing was fishy to begin with. She is obviously dealing with some kind of mental illness so hopefully she gets the help she needs.
You're right, but why is it insane? It's not only a mental thing to lie about rape, or a moral thing, but a pragmatic thing. Look how quick people were to jump on anything that made her story appear to be shaky from a cohesive narrative perspective (which real life doesn't behave as anyway).
Argh, I know what you are saying in your second statement, but I just disagree. Not on the whole point. Has she lied? Sure. Is that awful? Sure. That's not the same as saying she is more likely to lie. It says something about her character as an even younger teenager, sure, but I don't know if it qualifies as a pattern of behavior or as something that discredits a claim. As I said to #1-wwf-fan earlier: If it were a choice between her and a unscrupulous individual and their stories were in complete contradiction to each other, I might be inclined to predict the honest person telling the truth whilst still doing an investigation. But, as cunty Savio seems to be relishing in doing, there are exceptions to everything. I know that when I was younger, my honesty paid off and got someone into trouble because they had a reputation of telling fibs. I'm ashamed of that to this day, but the amount of women who have lied about being raped and then get raped is probably significant enough within that marginal statistic to warrant not coloring all women who lie about rape once as women who lie about rape 100 times.
Does that make sense? I'm not saying she isn't lying because of stats. Please don't run us down that path again, because I am likely to get distracted by it, haha. My sole disagreement here is almost semantic (well, not really -- I can't think of the term I want though -- just woke up) on how we interpret statistics in this case. I think the position you're taking in this one, while I said I can understand it earlier (and I can), is way too absolute. And I think this is really our only point of contention, to be honest:
* Do you take a complaint from someone with a troublesome past with a "grain of salt" as #1-wwf-fan said, or do you take it seriously and let the falsehoods in it fall out on their own?
Personally, I go with the latter option, because I believe that false accusations are extremely hard to maintain, and that frankly the paranoia of men who worry about this does stem from misogyny in society and culture. As I said earlier, all you need is an alibi, another witness or some contradictory evidence (not as an onus, but as something that completely eliminates the accusation from the realm of possibility) and you've completely exposed someone as a felon. And that's a huge part of what makes lying about rape insane. Not impossible; just insane.
The problem with the grain of salt approach is that too many people fall through the cracks. People with rough pasts, substance abuse issues or that are simply coming up against a man that "couldn't/wouldn't do that." We know enough now that lots of the "couldn't/wouldn't" is bullshit, unfortunately. You don't need to change "innocent until proven guilty" in a legal sense, or shift the burden of proof. You don't need to throw everyone accused in jail on the assumption that the accuser is telling the truth because of stats (what a weapon that would be). It's just simply an attitude towards an accusation from the get-go. And to be perfectly honest, I think it's common sense: We'll treat it seriously.
I guess we depart further on where that serious line is. Some would have you believe that if you can prove she's lied about it in the past, then that's it. I don't agree with that for a second. Crying wolf and all that. And to be honest, and you used this word earlier, I think it's an intuition thing. What bothers me is a lot of people took the "what a liar" position as soon as this story came out (even before evidence of lying), which is gross to me. From what I've gathered about this case, in particular, Enzo had sex with a teenage girl that was drugged up, possibly because he was drugged up, and she went to the hospital and claimed later it was non-consensual after texting her friends about it. It's a fucking mess, but it's not not serious. Even without the claims of rape, it's still messy. I can completely understand why WWE has distanced themselves from this guy, and I'll take whatever shots at the company I can, but I think they are completely in the right on this.
To your original point: Will people always think of Enzo as a rapist? I can't speak for anyone else. The original surge here was counter to that and seemed extra focused on protesting Enzo's innocence because it was he said/she said. I think we're both talking about larger communities. Some might, I guess. But my feelings with this are dark because we just don't know. It's a situation we're agnostic on, and I think it's irresponsible for anyone to take any certain stance on it re: guilt versus she's lying. And I don't think proving her a liar proves she's lying about this. It proves that she is capable of lying, and that she has lied -- but that's like throwing a guy into prison because there was an armed robbery and he robbed a place a few years ago. It's just a bit short-sighted and tunnel-visioned for me in a ironic turnabout from what I've been accused of by assuming she must be telling the truth because stats don't support the claim that she's "probably lying." Which is not what I've said, by the way.
Do I think of Enzo as a rapist? An uncomfortable thing stemming from this is that I don't know how to think of Enzo. I'm not comfortable dismissing Philomena's claims, and I'm not comfortable saying "Yes, he definitely did." It's a suspect situation and there is a cloud over it. I can put it aside intellectually and when criticizing Enzo in the future, remember that it is there but not hold it against him like a conviction of which there was plenty of ample evidence. But it's also quite hard to ignore the whole mess and pretend that what obviously happened was that Enzo had consensual sex with a mentally stable participant and that everyone was happy and she had a mental break two days later and filed charges against him that we can all laugh at, ha-ha. I don't think it has to be one or the other, because it's one of those situations where it's not clearly one or the other.
Mr. Nerfect
05-18-2018, 09:33 PM
Ultimately, I agree with KIRA: I'm glad he's off my TV. In a joking way because he's a horrible wrestler. In a more serious way, because I think he's been clearly irresponsible with fame and his decisions and I, frankly, don't think he deserves it. And I don't think anyone owes it to him to employ him either. And that's not the accusations; I just don't think talent-based industries should be forced to hire specific individuals if their skills don't fit the role. I supported the WWE firing Emma, for example. In a deadly serious way, I don't want to see someone who might be a rapist on my light entertainment, sorry. I don't have to; you can't make me. I don't wish the Cosby shankings on Enzo, because I don't know, but I don't have to clap my hands and go along with his program until I do.
SenatorJPO
05-19-2018, 06:23 AM
I posted at-length about Enzo's accuser below the relevant news articles, but here's a "digest" of the main points that damage her credibility:
------
She wrote, "I'm married to a woman named Depression[,] & she is my lover... Most days[,] we just lay in bed & refuse to get up."
Does this woman have a real job?
(Other than her hobbies of Instagramming and fretting in-bed all day??)
Is she living on Social Security / disability insurance payments???
This apparent lack-of-work might account-for the allegations that she's making claims to try-and-get a legal settlement out-of Mr. Arndt.
Source: http://disq.us/p/1slqm3x
------
It certainly seems this woman had psychiatric issues -before- meeting Enzo Amore.
This woman sounds histrionic; and histrionic people tend to be more-suggestible than the general population.
If she spoke with a therapist during those 4 days between her encounter with Enzo and her report thereof, then it is plausible the therapist could-have asked leading questions and more-or-less suggested a more-sinister context than what actually transpired.
Cross-reference: false memory syndrome!
Sources: http://disq.us/p/1slqkaf
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro03/web2/kflannery.html
http://www.massey.ac.nz/~trauma/issues/1998-3/gow1.htm
------
Indeed, scientism better-serves the pursuit of justice than does hearsay.
Up-here in Wisconsin, the Department of Justice has hundreds of rape-testing kits that haven't been used, simply because the District Attorney's Office over-estimated the number of verifiable "violations" claimed.
These unverifiable allegations of, "He -touched- me!" is just another development of the "stranger danger" craze that emerged from anecdotal childcare scares in the 1980s.
Now, those children are grown-up but still imagining / fabricating transgressions.
Sources: http://disq.us/p/1sl62b4
http://www.aaets.org/article13.htm
https://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/news/2017/01/30/thousands-rape-kits-still-not-tested/97243424/
BigCrippyZ
05-19-2018, 01:41 PM
"He -touched- me!" is not hearsay. It is direct testimonial evidence from a person with first hand knowledge of the alleged fact being asserted.
A third party's statement of "She told me, 'He touched me!'" would be an example of hearsay if it was being used to assert the fact that he touched her.
poopfromweiner dude
05-19-2018, 02:20 PM
thread is fucking lit still have to come back for pages 9-12 but get ur popcorn ready brothers we're debating rape accusations
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-19-2018, 05:00 PM
A dastardly main event draw.
Swiss Ultimate
05-19-2018, 05:12 PM
I only do it for things I find particularly distasteful. Not just incorrect things, things I don't like, or things I disagree with. I'm glad Savio cared enough to share.
Noid has never neg-repped me. :D
xrodmuc316
05-19-2018, 06:52 PM
There should be lawyers coming out of the fucking woodworks to take this case if they think it's legit.
I dont think they thought it was legit.
I think they are right, I didn't think it was legit either. Took 1 day for her friend to share that she was in a group text bragging about it.
Plus she already has told some big lies like when she lied about being pregnant.
As the old saying goes, don't cry wolf. Also don't brag about banging somebody then come out later and say it was not consensual.
Mr. Nerfect
05-20-2018, 06:17 PM
Noid has never neg-repped me. :D
You've always been on the right side of history.
Mr. Nerfect
05-20-2018, 06:19 PM
A dastardly main event draw.
You just had to slip your name into the marquee, didn't you? :p
DAMN iNATOR
05-21-2018, 04:18 AM
You just had to slip your name into the marquee, didn't you? :p
But did the marquee consent to that?
Mr. Nerfect
05-22-2018, 11:30 PM
They were both drunk. It's fine.
DAMN iNATOR
05-25-2018, 02:33 PM
They were both drunk. It's fine.
I'd prepare myself just in case it's a particularly litigious marquee with a checkered past as to the truth about these things. IJS.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oVruAfu53z4" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Savio
05-28-2018, 08:57 PM
#Bars
Destor
05-28-2018, 09:11 PM
I love what he's trying to say tbh
I can not objectively comment on the music itself
Fignuts
05-29-2018, 06:46 AM
I can.
It sucks.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-29-2018, 07:36 AM
Don't even need to watch it to tell you it sucks.
Shisen Kopf
05-29-2018, 07:58 AM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oVruAfu53z4" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
WORLDSTAR! that was really good, its like he's Eminem part deux or something. Hope he sues that skeezy bitch and TMZ and VKM. Shit was consensual, fuck you!
Shisen Kopf
05-29-2018, 08:27 AM
WWE should bring him back and give him the gimmick "Capt. Consensual"
Simple Fan
05-29-2018, 09:11 AM
Thought it was pretty good for what it is. Sounded better second time I played it.
Jordan
05-29-2018, 09:23 AM
I liked it. He's justified in fuck you in this situation. I think it's a good voice to hear in a time where so many men are falling to allegations.
Jordan
05-29-2018, 09:28 AM
He reminds me of ICP and yeah... when I was young...
Simple Fan
05-29-2018, 09:32 AM
Reminded me more of Lil Wyte with raspiness of his voice at times. Doesn't quite have Lil Wyte's flow but he's not bad at all.
Big Vic
05-29-2018, 09:33 AM
First verse seems so outta place with the last 2 verses.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-29-2018, 09:35 AM
lol fuck nothing more hackneyed than "Phoenix rising from the ashes".
Destor
05-29-2018, 09:39 AM
lol fuck nothing more hackneyed than "Phoenix rising from the ashes".
And flipping off the camera
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-29-2018, 09:53 AM
I get his anger though - provided what we believe is true, and the girl's allegations are false.
Big Vic
05-29-2018, 10:22 AM
Can't wait for her diss track.
Ol Dirty Dastard
05-29-2018, 10:24 AM
"DEPRESSION IS MY MISTRESS"
Loose Cannon
05-29-2018, 10:48 AM
that actually wasn't bad at all. i thought it was going to blow so bad, but i enjoyed it
Destor
05-29-2018, 10:49 AM
It could be the greatest rap of all time and I wouldnt know it
#1-norm-fan
05-29-2018, 02:16 PM
Had a dream last night that Enzo showed up in New Japan to challenge Okada and the crowd went nuts.
#1-norm-fan
05-31-2018, 05:04 PM
"Grippin' my consensual... penis."
Savio
06-19-2020, 08:26 PM
Sure glad I didn't kink shame Enzo in this thread.
Mr. Nerfect
06-19-2020, 08:37 PM
Ooh, that sure stung you. You're obviously obsessed with me, by the way. It won't happen, Savio, because I actually like to have fun.
Also, rape =/= kink. But I wouldn't expect scum like you to be able to tell the difference. Insert an obvious reminder that you're a cunt here.
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