Who will be the big heels on RAW to feud with Roman and Braun after Lesnar?

[slik]

Who gets sent from SD to be a heel to feud with Braun and Roman after WM?

KO/Braun?

HEEL Nakamura?
Baron Corbin (lol)
HEEL Randy Orton?
Jinder vs Braun, Jinder vs Roman or nah Jinder is done main-eventing brotherjackdude

(I could see Randy Orton vs Roman Reigns main-eventing WM35 for some reason)


I could see Ambrose coming back a heel and staying on RAW and feuding with both...Joe staying on RAW to feud with Roman and then getting sent to SD maybe to have the same spot KO does now.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Haha, Heel Ambrose beating on body-armored Roman Reigns is going to be hilarious.

It could be anyone of the top heels:

* Kevin Owens
* Sami Zayn
* Baron Corbin
* Jinder Mahal
* Rusev (with massive cheers for Rusev)
* Heel Orton
* Samoa Joe
* Triple H
* Bray Wyatt

Take your pick.

[Bad News Gertner]

Jason Jordan

[Emperor Smeat]

RAW has enough already without needing Smackdown.

Joe and Braun should be locks with Drifter and Miz as 1 month type feuds at the very least. Then you have Ambrose and Cena (heel or not) on the wings to carry the load till Mania 35.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Things are not looking too bright, haha.

[Jordan]

Balor Club could be pushed as a top heel faction. Samoa Joe too.

[Evolution]

How about someone new? Ricochet perhaps? Pete Dunne?

[Bad News Gertner]

Naw, keep the midgets on 205

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol, they're going to have all these heels that Reigns should beat the fuck out of in two minutes. Joe is a good choice, but they've done that a whole bunch of times already, haven't they?

[Mr. Nerfect]

If they turns Reigns heel, they would have all these fresh opponents for him. Rollins, Ambrose and Jordan immediately come to mind. Jeff Hardy when he is healthy. You can move over AJ Styles or Nakamura. Turn Sami Zayn back down the line and do that. Rusev is primed to be a great babyface challenger to Reigns. It's so easy. Even Braun. They're just sitting there waiting for it, and Reigns can beat the fuck out of the smaller guys, and people will get behind them. It'd be like a joint popped back into place.

[Sixx]

Wait, so Braun is a face now?

[A.J.K]

EC3 perhaps?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

WALK WITH ELIAS

[slik]

Wait, so Braun is a face now?

Arguably the biggest face in the entire company

[#BROKEN Hasney]

It'll just be a conveyer belt of dudes fed to the big dog who will look like shit after each feud. Think peak Cena where they'll be so desperate for heels that they'll bring back Davey Boy Smith Jr. , but wearing Japanese lettering on his face.

[Lock Jaw]

Wait, so Braun is a face now?

For quite a number of months now

[Mr. Nerfect]

It'll just be a conveyer belt of dudes fed to the big dog who will look like shit after each feud. Think peak Cena where they'll be so desperate for heels that they'll bring back Davey Boy Smith Jr. , but wearing Japanese lettering on his face.

"David Hart Smith sure did learn a lot of Japanese while he was competing overseas, Michael."
"No, he's speaking English. That's just how he talks."
"Oh."

[Mr. Nerfect]

Seriously do love me some DBS, Jr. and hope to see him back in the WWE one day. I think he's one of those talents people sleep on.

[Evil Vito]

DBS Jr was only 20 when he signed with WWE and. Upon asking William Regal for advice, Regal told him he should quit and learn other styles first so he could work anywhere in the world.

He didn't listen. Fast forward a little over 5 years later, he gets released at 26 and apparently was so burned out he was ready to quit the industry altogether.

Glad he landed on his feet in Japan. He's only 32 now. I could see him coming back someday.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

WALK WITH ELIAS

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Wait, so Braun is a face now?

No, he's still a heel.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Scary how young that dude still is. He still has friends in the WWE, surely. His personality was never stellar, but I remember him being "brilliant" in the ring. He'd make a great NXT Champion for a few months before he can get called up and hang around The Miz or whatever people do these days.

[Evil Vito]

That would work for me. I like the Killer Elite Squad a lot, but I'm not sure how much of a desire WWE have to bring back a soon to be 41 year old Vance Archer. Probably best he stays on as a hired gun for Suzuki-gun.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Haven't seen Archer in years. He did some cool stuff, but I think it was fluff. I imagine that when he's ready to shift gears and dial back is when Smith makes the call. But who knows? They love snatching up everyone they can just so they have them. War Machine vs. The KES seems perfectly suited to a Takeover.

[Evil Vito]

They will start up an NXT division in Japan to go along with the UK one they've been working on.

WrestleMania will be a 24 hour spectacle across multiple continents.

[Evil Vito]

About the only guys they can send over I think the crowd would totally cheer for Reigns over are Corbin and Mahal...and my god, does anybody actually want to see those feuds?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't think the crowd ever cheers this incarnation of Reigns. The reactions are directed at him; not who he's facing. It would be smart to just treat him like a heel by putting him against the likes of Rollins, Styles, Balor, Ambrose, etc. He's more physically imposing than any of those guys, so they make natural sympathetic opponents for him.

[slik]

No, he's still a heel.

Braun is clearly a face.

[Evil Vito]

No, he's still a heel.

lmfao

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah, even I can tell he's a face.

[Destor]

If you're grumpy you're a heel if you smile you're a face, c'mon guys.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Braun just likes to have fun.

[Evil Vito]

I look forward to Braun reprising his role as a Rosebud so he can dance his ass off

[Mr. Nerfect]

It is coming.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Get these jazz hands.

[Mr. Nerfect]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/v5A_dLZkCk4/maxresdefault.jpg

[slik]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/e0ZEWOmtlbg" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[DAMN iNATOR]

LUTHER Reigns. :shifty:

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Braun is a heel. Just because fans cheer doesn't mean he didn't try to kill two people on the road to Royal Rumble.

Murder=heel.

[Lock Jaw]

Braun has obviously been a face since getting trash compacted.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Braun has obviously been a face since getting trash compacted.

This is the truth.

[Destor]

Braun is a heel. Just because fans cheer doesn't mean he didn't try to kill two people on the road to Royal Rumble.

Murder=heel.

The fans cheering is the absolute only thing that defines heel or face. Braun Strowman could gut and eat the still beating heart of the last Siberian tiger on the planet on live tv and if it gets over then hes a baby.

Heel and baby is up soley to the crowd.

[#1-norm-fan]

Braun is a heel. Just because fans cheer doesn't mean he didn't try to kill two people on the road to Royal Rumble.

Murder=heel.

Do we really need to waste time listing all the people who have "tried to kill" people in the history of wrestling and see how this holds up or can you just admit you're being an unnecessary correction dipshit who's desperate to sound like the smartest guy in the room?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Face/heel dynamic is designed by how crowds respond to you. If they're paying money to come and cheer you on, then you are a babyface, even if you drown puppies in front of them. If they are coming to boo you and pay to see you fall, then it doesn't matter if you cure all their diseases -- you are a heel. Austin wasn't "technically a heel" because he beat up old men and didn't respect anyone. He was the biggest babyface of all-time because people loved him.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

He beat a face Rhyno on Raw this month. He's a tweener if anything.

[#1-norm-fan]

So you're just going the "ignore everything" route.

#DrofordJr

[Droford]

Don't drag me into this

[#1-norm-fan]

Your name is synonymous with being wrong and ignoring evidence. You don't like it, fix it, shithead.

[Droford]

Braun is clearly the cool heel. He's not a face

[#1-norm-fan]

NICE TRY

[Shisen Kopf]

Let's see what the king of the rasslin sheep says,,,


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5nlU4XFbXN0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Shisen Kopf]

5TD & dr040rD ju$t 60t 0w3nd,,,,,,,

[Destor]

He beat a face Rhyno on Raw this month. He's a tweener if anything.
Oh yeah thats right babies can only wrestle heels :roll:

[Destor]

Lost in the 80s

[Evil Vito]

Braun is a heel. Just because fans cheer doesn't mean he didn't try to kill two people on the road to Royal Rumble.

Murder=heel.

If he had killed his two opponents, he would've been awarded the Universal Championship or had an easier opponent.

It was smart. I want to cheer people who are smart.

Braun = face

[Droford]

So by "fans are cheering him so he's a face" logic the Miz and Rusev are faces too. I don't think so

[Evil Vito]

Rusev gets massive cheers every week, has an infectious personality, and has a really hot wife

Top face in the company

[Lock Jaw]

There seems to be a difference in face/heel between the company and the fans at times.

Roman Reigns is booked as and treated like a face by the company, but booed by the fans as a heel.

Rusev is still booked as a heel for now, but cheered as a face by the fans.

Braun Strowman is clearly booked and treated like a face right now by the company, and he gets cheered by the fans. So they actually align on this one and it should be the least confusing one to see.

[Destor]

Rusev is def a face.

[slik]

Rusev is 100% a face
Same for Braun

[Destor]

Here's the deal: if booking a guy as a tradational heel gets him over as a baby he's still baby. These things have nothign to with one another.


People pop for "heels" now. Is what it is. So the heels have become babies. The crowd turns them. Maybe one day they start booking them like babies. That will probably turn them heel but it makes no matter. The reaction dictates what they are.


This isnt rocket science. If the crowd cheers you you're either face or a bad heel. Take your pick.

[Evil Vito]

Nowadays more than ever, you have to read the crowd. Cornette told a great story about Russ McCullough, a 7 ft guy who got a job back in the day when size was all you needed to get a look.

One night he was supposed to wrestle Leviathan (Batista). Russ was supposed to be a white meat babyface but he just looked like a lumbering oaf and he selected a drab, plodding entrance theme. Got into the ring. Was supposed to just wait for Batista to come out. Instead he decided to ad-lib a promo. Guess what? It was a drab, plodding promo that the crowd immediately turned on and, try as he might, he couldn't get the crowd to stop booing.

Cornette backstage tells Batista - fuck it, you're the face tonight. Squash him and get over.

So here comes Batista, cool music, awesome physique. Way more interesting than Russ. Beats the fuck out of Russ, squashes him. Crowd goes apeshit.

Under modern WWE booking, they would've stubbornly stuck with the script and had a shitty ass match with Russ getting to make shitty ass face comeback spots that nobody wanted to see. But instead, situational awareness on the part of the booker kept the segment from being a trainwreck.

[slik]

I don't even consider Brock a heel and haven't for several years.

[Fignuts]

Braun is a heel. Just because fans cheer doesn't mean he didn't try to kill two people on the road to Royal Rumble.

Murder=heel.

He tried to murder two heels.

He is a "badass" face in the vein of Austin or pe-PG Cena.

[Mr. Nerfect]

So by "fans are cheering him so he's a face" logic the Miz and Rusev are faces too. I don't think so

Rusev is a babyface.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't even consider Brock a heel and haven't for several years.

Brock is the one guy who confuses me. There are like alternating stories where he is either the protagonist (against Joe, for example) and ones where he is the protagonist (against Ambrose). But I don't think you're supposed to even boo him by the WWE's canon. I think you're supposed to piss your pants and say "BROCK!", which is what people do, so I think he's a face until they find someone that people are legitimately going to boo Brock against. AJ Styles and/or a cleared Daniel Bryan might be the only ones. Or Rusev, legit, at this point.

[XL]

I could see Braun going to SDL after Mania with Angle trading him due to being sick of trying to control him. Not sure who he gets paired up with there though.

[Destor]

Brock is the one guy who confuses me. There are like alternating stories where he is either the protagonist (against Joe, for example) and ones where he is the protagonist (against Ambrose). But I don't think you're supposed to even boo him by the WWE's canon. I think you're supposed to piss your pants and say "BROCK!", which is what people do, so I think he's a face until they find someone that people are legitimately going to boo Brock against. AJ Styles and/or a cleared Daniel Bryan might be the only ones. Or Rusev, legit, at this point.
Well youre getting close to where the business is right now. Face and heel is almost passè at this point. Its reactions. Volume. Thats what theyre after. Lesnar is a face because people pay to see him beat people but the office is just booking a champion. Everything else is secondary.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Well youre getting close to where the business is right now. Face and heel is almost passè at this point. Its reactions. Volume. Thats what theyre after. Lesnar is a face because people pay to see him beat people but the office is just booking a champion. Everything else is secondary.

That sounds about right. Do you think that is a good direction for them to go in? My personal opinion is that heat is going to be what gets your shit properly over, but I guess with the perception of wrestling with advertisers, to gentrify it and sterilize it is the intention. I just can't wrap my head around such a cold and passe, as you said, product is better for getting those sponsors, as opposed to a hot product that gets people in and hooked. I mean, you don't need to Russo it up and have miscarriages and accidental nudity to get heat and get people in.

I guess my philosophical question is: Is there tasteful heat?

[Destor]

I think its out of necessity not desire. 50%ish of the audience buys what you sell. 50% will actively rebel against whatever you sell them. With money being in kids pockets it puts them in an impossible spot. Playing the middle is the only realistic option.

I mean what do you do? Abandon the cash cow (kids) or do you placate 30+? Those are very different markets and you are drawing both.

Besides if everyone knows its a work whats the point of faces and heels anyways? Its not a magic trick if everyone sees the strings

[Destor]

Talking black spy vs white spy

[Mr. Nerfect]

Everything you are saying sounds completely valid, but I think that attitude towards kids misses what they are really after as a market. I was a kid during the Attitude era, and although I wasn't into wrestling myself until the end, that it was "cool" got it over with kids. I think it's smarter to go after the types that are going to set trends that trickle down to your kids, and I think that depends on getting your product hot.

The point about seeing the strings is a good one. I think you can work people. As a species, we have enough blind spots for that. But can you, say, be a publicly traded company and not admit you are a work? Is that why Stephanie McMahon is always stressing she is "playing a character" even within the canon of the show? Would television, media and even pop-culture have necessitated them coming clean eventually?

It's amazing they do as well as they do now, just in terms of running a circus, basically. But I wonder how sustainable the model is. Are they always going to get people in to see the fake wrestlers do aerobics? It seems like something that will do well until it doesn't? Do they go back to faces, heels and heat then?

[Destor]

But where does that heat even come from? You try to get heat and they pop. No one has heat, and no one has had head for atleast 10 years. Maybe longer. In 2018 what does heat look like?

[Destor]

People boo but outside of reigns and cena no one has had heat in a long time

[Mr. Nerfect]

But where does that heat even come from? You try to get heat and they pop. No one has heat, and no one has had head for atleast 10 years. Maybe longer. In 2018 what does heat look like?

Well, that's sort of my question. I mean, silly as this sounds, and unsustainable as I think it might be, Ciampa got heat in NXT by attacking Gargano. He was a good enough and nurtured babyface that people responded as they should, almost like they got the cue not to ruin the moment by popping for random violence.

I think you can get heat through manipulation of expectation. There are certain words that people don't want to hear. I was going to post about this in the 100,001 thread, but on his latest popcast, Cornette was going through a year's worth of booking for Ronda. I was actually feeling it, haha. What worked about it, without going into specifics, was the building of her as a babyface, then pulling an angle with her down the line (not doing one for months), getting screwed in the blow-off there, and then having her attack Stephanie, making Triple H lose his shit and run down with his headset still on and Ronda jumping on his back when he pulls her off and checks on Steph, leading to her taking her first bump when Triple H flips her instinctively.

I think infrequency, timing, building and using unique moments and visuals can get you babyfaces people care about and heels that are dastardly. I think being a true face or heel is harder than it has ever been, because you need to get in front of people, but I think there is an art to it today that could become en vogue if enough people stand out properly doing it.

And I think you only need a few things that are truly over to be carrying your shows and conditioning that audience to respond to things throughout the rest of your show. If you have a handful of babyfaces that are truly over, and a handful of heels that people genuinely want to see lose, and people get the vibe "oh, we're actually booing the shit-cunts and cheering the heroes," it can become its own trend, so that when Johnny Applecorn debuts and jaw-jacks the crowd, they boo him, because they don't feel as stupid doing it, because they really hate that dick in that other segment.

If all else fails, you can cheat and turn Roman Reigns to turn him babyface. Or do the same with Cena. Either one (probably not both) is going to cause a stir and get people thinking they're "cool." People will act like they are heels, but if you know what you are doing, you can even get kids to buy the Roman Reigns t-shirts and have idiots proudly flogging it thinking that they are going against the program. Reverse engineering the end-product you want, I guess. We want to get you cheering this guy, how do we do it? We act like we want you to boo him. There are ways to work even ironic fans, I think. And, in some ways, that's kind of what they did with the Attitude era. More than the lower-card stuff, it was Austin and Rock being dicks that got over and eventually it became an unironic thing to cheer them and the face and heel dynamics feel as genuine as they ever have. I think the smartest thing they could probably do is turn their "Face of the Company" (hate how this phrase has become part of smark vernacular recently) face by having them not give a fuck about which bland babyfaces they kill. Kind of like what they sort of did with Strowman, except he's not the guy, in my opinion.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Really think Orton could get heat if he played his Twitter persona on-air. Seriously, I think him bitching out little flippy guys and working the indy marks would be money. If Kenny Omega wanted to come in, Orton would be his WrestleMania opponent for me, and I'd put Orton over, because the internet would explode in a rage.

[Mr. Nerfect]

In many ways, I think this a symptom of having so many hours to fill too. You've got three hours on Raw, and you need to have stuff happening all the time. If they dialed back, they could use fewer heads, focus on more specific personalities, and limit the angles more. Maybe not by what you'd need to. Dunno. I guess there is other wrestling out there, but I'm surprised we haven't seen a more "mainstream" wrestling program that follows a simple, tidier format in response to the WWE. I guess that's technically what ROH is, isn't it? I don't even know what I mean, haha.

This is what TNA was originally supposed to be when they were floated by Spike, but they fucked that up, I guess.

[slik]

I wonder if


Lashley


will be a heel or face

[Jordan]

He'd be better off heel.

[Bad News Gertner]

JBL and The Miz are the last true heels.

[Mr. Nerfect]

He will come in and people will piss their pants. Face. He might win the Greatest Royal Rumble and challenge for the Universal Title against Roman. Face. They might get sick of him as a jacked-up guy they perceive as "Vince's type." Heel.

[Mr. Nerfect]

It will be hard to make him a heel out the gate unless they put him against Bryan, Styles or Rusev.

[Ruien]

Or BRAUN!!!

[Mr. Nerfect]

Braun doesn't sound that over to me. And if Lashley destroys him, the fans will just jump to his side.