Did Bret Hart do anything important other than The Montreal Screwjob?

[slik]

I liked Bret when I was a kid and he briefly had a run as my favorite back then...but looking back outside of the Montreal Screwjob it seems like Bret didn't really do anything important in wrestling history. I mean he was on top of WWF in a really floppy era w/ King Mabel, Bob Backlund and Diesel but that's about it...I guess his feud w/ Austin helped Steve but seems like that would have happened without Bret too tbh.


Is Bret the most overrated and non-influential 'lead superstar' in wrestling history?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Had arguably the best match in Wrestlemania History with Steve Austin. It may have happened for Steve anyways, but it's important regardless.

[slik]

idk...HBK/Angle and HBK/Taker were really good too

Bret whines a lot now so maybe he should be erased from wrestling history to 'teach him a lesson'...idk...maybe/maybe not

[Savio]

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[Shisen Kopf]

I voted yeah bc yeah

[Savio]

Meltzer sheep,,,,,

[Bad News Gertner]

He was an opening match guy that got breaks because of his dad

[Blonde Moment]

Had arguably the best match in Wrestlemania History with Steve Austin. It may have happened for Steve anyways, but it's important regardless.

I think it pretty much had to happen then or not at all, i don't believe that there was anyone else working at the time who was willing to do what Hart did for Austin.

[slik]

Oh, in that case I guess Bret is important!

Disregard and Carry On #HartFoundation #NatalyaHart

[xrodmuc316]

Bret was the guy for a good 3 years. Like him or not, he was always a little boring to me personally, but he did well at the top.

I agree if you are making a list of top guys, I wouldn't put him anywhere near the top, but he is still on the list, which does count for something.

[LibSuperstar]

Well, let's see. Proved that smaller, non-muscular wrestlers could be "The Guy", drew well for WWE internationally and gave countless classic matches.

[Stickman]

Bret made Stone Cold and HBK. Bret lead from Hogan to the attitude era, someone had to and he did it. He made everyone he wrestled look like a million bucks in the ring, so yeah, I'd say he was important.

[Stickman]

Well, let's see. Proved that smaller, non-muscular wrestlers could be "The Guy", drew well for WWE internationally and gave countless classic matches.

The interesting thing about that is he was way bigger than a lot of guys today. It's sad how far they have gone from big huge guys you wouldn't want to mess with, to small skinny short guys who couldn't beat up anyone.

[Emperor Smeat]

Austin's rise as a mega star either gets delayed by years or possibly never happens without the Bret match at Mania 13. Only other real option was HBK but unless you were in the Kliq or in their good graces, he was not reliable to give the star making rub needed due to his personal and backstage issues.

Could also argue Bret locked up the Canadian market for the WWF and kept it away from WCW due to his star status. WCW didn't start to push hard into Canada until after they got Bret.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Bret Hart could tell amazing stories in the ring. He's still the benchmark when it comes to great technical wrestlers and in-ring psychologists.

Has arguably the greatest match in WWE history to his name against Steve Austin. Was extremely important in helping get him kinged up.

Significant star and well-known internationally.

Also, he appeared on The Simpsons once.

[Simple Fan]

Never cared for Bret. The Austin match is about the only thing of his I've actually seeked out to watch and that was more because of Austin. Didn't watch WWF as a kid so I didn't see alot of him until he moved to WCW and that run was awful.

[Vastardikai]

He headlined one of the biggest gated shows in WWF History at the time: Summerslam '92.

He was able to blade twice in WWF's no blood era and get away with it. He made it look realistic enough to make you think it was hard-way, and the "accident" both times coincidentally made the match better.

Also, there's a reason why the hold is called the "Sharpshooter" and not the "Scorpion Deathlock," though Sting did the move first.

[Triple A]

Always found him really boring when I was lil... seemed like a generic boring face that just did things like give his sunglasses to lil kids... lame................

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Goldberg sucks. Bret was a top guy for a long time.

[slik]

Excuse me, Goldberg defeated Brock Lesnar.
Bret Hart cannot say that!!

[Bad News Gertner]

Goldberg ended Bret's career. Goldberg is better.

[slik]

In fact,

Not sure if u r aware of this @STD, but Brock Lesnar has been on top of the WWE for almost 5 years now! That is way longer than Bret Hart was on top and he has been CHAMPION almost the whole time.


Kids of the future will grow up and base their wrestling careers around Brock Lesnar, so Brock Lesnar is probably more important than Bret Clark!!

[slik]

Also Steve Austin QUIT WWE because he was mad about losing to Brock Lesnar on Monday Night RAW...so in a way did Austin even contribute to anything long-term??!?

BROCK LESNAR is probably the most influential wrestler of all-time!!

[RaginRonic]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nz0TpJAJ4-0/hqdefault.jpg

Don't forget...the biggest casualty of the ScrewJob, right here.

Had Shawn choked down his fucking pride, Owen would still be alive, teaching his ring experience to the current crop of talent.

> = (

[Danny Electric]

Bret was one of my favourites as a kid , he wrestled some great matches and is still regarded as on earth of the best so yes he was important.

Plus to all those kids he gave sunglasses too he's super important.

[Juan]

Lol @ the thought that the only important thing Bret did was the screwjob. Ridiculous

[Juan]

Also Steve Austin QUIT WWE because he was mad about losing to Brock Lesnar on Monday Night RAW...so in a way did Austin even contribute to anything long-term??!?

BROCK LESNAR is probably the most influential wrestler of all-time!!

Lol stop it

[Juan]

Kids of the future will grow up and base their wrestling careers around Brock Lesnar, so Brock Lesnar is probably more important than Bret Clark!!

Not the smart ones

[slik]

Bret was also in the WM 2 Battle Royal and got eliminated by WWE HOFr ANDRE THE GYANT!

[Shisen Kopf]

Bret Hart was also in the main event at Rasslemania 9 where he passed the torch to Yokozuna who in turn passed the torch to a rassler called Hulk Hogan. Bret made Hulk by being so selfless.

[slik]

Whose Bret Clark brother?

- HH

[Shisen Kopf]

Bret Hart was such a huge mega star that after he made Hogan a star, Hulk was so intimidated by the pink and black attack that he left the WWF. So really, if you think about it. If there was no Hitman there would be no NWO. Bret is a rasslin god

[Heisenberg]

Early 90s Bret Hart was just a good counter to the awesomeness of IC title HBK.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I used to think Bret Hart was boring, but I have since smartened up. So fucking good how he puts a match together. I literally daydream about Bret Hart matches sometimes now.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

His Summer Slam match against Perfect was my first favorite match. Love it to this day

[DaveWadding]

His Summer Slam match against Perfect was my first favorite match. Love it to this day

Best match of all time. Seen it thousands of times over the years. Never gets boring.

[slik]

His Summer Slam match against Perfect was my first favorite match. Love it to this day

1st ppv I ever watched and I remember this match really well. Whole ppv was really good.

[slik]

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[Jordan]

I don't understand why you needed to ask this question, it's obvious that Bret did more important things than Montreal. And to be specific what Bret did was refuse to lose the belt, that's it. What Vince and Shawn did is another story.

Bret was a workhorse during the 80's, a dependable good match in a land of immobile jacked up giants. He was apart of one of the best tag team's of all time and then grew into a huge fan favorite baby face. He had a classic match against Piper and sold Yokozuna as a real threat. He came a great WWF Champion and lead baby face. He had classic matches with HBK, Diesel, Undertaker, Sean Waltman... Then he turned America against him and for the first time we had a mega heel in America and a mega face in Canada. Then he had classics with Austin...

If you are a real wrestling fan and especially a fan for over 20 years I don't understand how you could even pose this question.

[Stickman]

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Agree that this match is one of the greatest but the ref rings for the bell wayyyy too soon

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Agree that this match is one of the greatest but the ref rings for the bell wayyyy too soon

Perfect's back was fucked--was likely just to protect him.

[Bad News Gertner]

Bret could definitely have good matches when he had a guy to carry him

[Damian Rey 2.0]

Yeah I think Perfect was already injured by that point. Great match nonetheless. Crowd was hot as fuck for Bret.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

He was very injured. Hadn't wrestled for a while because of his back. That was his last match til Survivor Series 92.

[KIRA]

The interesting thing about that is he was way bigger than a lot of guys today. It's sad how far they have gone from big huge guys you wouldn't want to mess with, to small skinny short guys who couldn't beat up anyone.
We did get Jinder Mahal and over in real life Bryan though small he may be ran down a guy who robbed his house.

[KIRA]

He carried Bulldog to a decent match and Bulldog was coked up out of his mind.
I don't know if I should include the Hart Foundation since it's not him by himself and I don't know that they really did anything significant although it did showcase how Bret was way more effective and interesting as a heel.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Bret v. Austin
Bret v. HBK
Bret v. Owen
Bret v. Piper
Bret v. Bulldog

...I could do this forever. Fuck you, Slik.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Love Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect. One of my favorite examples of what makes Bret a great storyteller. The way he "gets his back" on Perfect is awesome. I don't mind the bell being rung so quickly. Pacing-wise, I can understand the drama of holding out for a second, and it does feel jarring, but I think that is sort of the point? Like, it's there as emphasis. Bret has got this motherfucker embarrassingly beat. Not heat-breaking forever beat, just "checkmate, bitch" beat. Might be accident lol, but it makes the win seem so decisive.

[KIRA]

I don't know that Bret Hart vs Roddy Piper was important but it was fun to watch.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Well, is wrestling itself important? Can we just throw away the whole industry and would everything be fine? Bret vs. Piper is a match worth talking about. I get what you're saying in that it wasn't the headlining match or anything, but I think it comes up in enough conversations when talking about certain tags -- Bret Hart, Roddy Piper, WrestleMania, IC Title, great matches, great finishes, etc.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

Think it was the allegedly the first time Piper had been pinned. Love that match too. Particularly Piper and his mortal struggle while holding I think the ring bell.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Maybe in the WWF. I'm sure he had taken pins elsewhere. He must have, surely?

Piper's a blind-spot with me. I don't know why, I've just never really gone back and looked over the guy's career. I'm probably doing myself a major disservice. I was first introduced to him when he returned to SmackDown in 2003 or whenever it was. Yeah. I have this idea of this renegade promo who drew money against Hogan and was super-important to getting WrestleMania started, but the details and specifics of his career in the Pacific North-West, Georgia, etc. escapes me.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I don't know that Bret Hart vs Roddy Piper was important but it was fun to watch.

The Intercontinental title is very fucking important, you know.

[ClockShot]

Bret Hart went heel. Had that whole anti-American angle going with the new Hart Foundation.

Something I thought I would never see from a guy like him. But I remember watching some documentary that Vince pitched the idea to him and Bret bought it.

I look back at that and use it as a baseline for all the other faces/babyfaces who never went the heel direction. If he can do it, everyone else can too. *coughJohnCenacough*

[Anybody Thrilla]

The Hart Foundation faction was amazing.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The Hart Foundation are one of those tag teams you think of when you think of the greatest tag teams of all-time.

[EIWF]

Bret did lots of memorable things in wrestling, but the last few years of moaning and complaing by him have tarnishedchis lagacy. He seems very bitter. He partly to blame why he did poorly after montreal.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

The thing with Bret's turn is the timing of it all. Instead of shoving him down people's throats, they used the crowd reactions to slowly but surely turn him, and let it go full blown after his match with Austin.

Bret buying into it and running with it made it that much better.

[Loose Cannon]

Perfect's back was fucked--was likely just to protect him.

yeah everytime i watch that match, it bugs the shit out of me. But Bret leaned back pretty legit, right? so i guess yeah the ref needed to call it quick

[Destor]

The austin turn but other than that no

[Loose Cannon]

the Montreal screw job led to the Mr McMahon character, which led to the biggest boom in wrestling since Hogan. Bret made Mr McMahon, so we can just stop there :)

[Loose Cannon]

#brethartfanboy

[LibSuperstar]

The Hart Foundation are one of those tag teams you think of when you think of the greatest tag teams of all-time.

Especially for WWE.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Especially for WWE.

Yeah, you kind of go through the teams of that era and list Demolition, The Bulldogs, Hart Foundation and The Brain Busters, before moving up to The Steiners, the dark years, and then into Edge & Christian/Hardyz/Dudleyz territory.

[#1-norm-fan]

Rockers > Hart Foundation

[Mr. Nerfect]

Rockers were cool, but they never held the belts, and wrestling was real then.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Rockers > Hart Foundation

Not even close. Hart Foundation far trumps the Rockers.

[Destor]

the Montreal screw job led to the Mr McMahon character, which led to the biggest boom in wrestling since Hogan. Bret made Mr McMahon, so we can just stop there :)

Good point. Bret leaving was the best thing that ever happened to them.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

So was Shawn leaving after WM 14.

[Bad News Gertner]

Shawn did the job for Austin. Way more professional than Bret.

[#1-norm-fan]

Shawn also came back and drew money while Bret whined on the internet for 2 decades.

[Maluco]

So many good stories and matches which were actually intriguing. Owen feud, Hart foundation, both versions, HBK battles and intrigues, Austin, Perfect, Bulldog, Lawler. He put so much time and effort into everything he did.

Did he take wrestling too seriously? Yeah, but he wouldn't have been half the performer if he hadn't. For me personally, he has more memorable moments than anyone on the current roster, just because he made everything seem so important and he was so creative. Every feud had matches that told specific stories, he was so great.

[#1-norm-fan]

Not even close. Hart Foundation far trumps the Rockers.

Well, you also think Bret was better than Shawn which is just insane.

[LibSuperstar]

Yeah, you kind of go through the teams of that era and list Demolition, The Bulldogs, Hart Foundation and The Brain Busters, before moving up to The Steiners, the dark years, and then into Edge & Christian/Hardyz/Dudleyz territory.

Man, WWE was loaded w/ teams back then. Tag wrestling is definitely cyclical for WWE.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Well, you also think Bret was better than Shawn which is just insane.

They're actually both my 1 and 1A of the time. Shawn was the better athlete, Bret was the better story teller who made everything seem real.

But Michaels was far from his prime when he was in the Rockers. The Harts were a bit more of an established act who just did a lot more meaningful shit during their run.

[Bad News Gertner]

Good little opening match guy

[KIRA]

Shawn also came back and drew money while Bret whined on the internet for 2 decades.

I'm not even a fan of Hart like I don't get the love but I will say that Bret Hart is his best self when he's having a moan. His bitterness is the one personality trait that really makes him interesting as a character and as a person

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Shawn also came back and drew money while Bret whined on the internet for 2 decades.

lol well Bret's career got taken away from him and he hasn't exactly had the easiest life. At least he's genuine.

[KIRA]

lol well Bret's career got taken away from him and he hasn't exactly had the easiest life. At least he's genuine.

Isn't the Hart family also kind of screwed up? I remember seeing that somewhere.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

the Hart family is a fucking disaster lol

[rez]

For the most part, Bret sucked in the WCW. Oh well..still a fan of Sting Vs. Hart @ HH '98

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3uw5ot

[rez]

Yeah, you kind of go through the teams of that era and list Demolition, The Bulldogs, Hart Foundation and The Brain Busters, before moving up to The Steiners, the dark years, and then into Edge & Christian/Hardyz/Dudleyz territory.

Harlem Heat*

[Destor]

So was Shawn leaving after WM 14.this is a bret thread, why is michaels dick in your mouth

Shawn did the job for Austin. Way more professional than Bret.

Shawn also came back and drew money while Bret whined on the internet for 2 decades.

correct

[Sepholio]

insert "Bret screwed Bret!" here.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

this is a bret thread, why is michaels dick in your mouth



I just think it's specious to discredit Bret the way you do. With or without Bret or Shawn (the two biggest stars of the previous era), Stone Cold was taking them to the top. It wasn't addition via subtraction except a little easier for McMahon to manage the locker room without having to deal w/ Bret and Shawn's bullshit.

[Destor]

Bret and shawn were not stars. Thats your mistake.

[Destor]

Michaels became a star in 2002 or so.

[Destor]

They were stars like booker t and jeff jarrett were stars at the end of wcw

[LibSuperstar]

They were stars like booker t and jeff jarrett were stars at the end of wcw

Are you referring to their drawing power b/c then I get your argument?

[Destor]

Yes

[LibSuperstar]

Yes

Yeah domestically they weren't great but Bret was a good draw for WWE internationally. Helped business a good deal when they went overseas.

[Destor]

Ive said this before but yeah he was a real big deal in india. Sadly the company still almost went under on his watch so ee shouldnt break out arms patting him on the back.

[erickman]

this weeks bischoffs podcast is about bret hart it is a hoot.

[Juan]

Shawn did the job for Austin. Way more professional than Bret.

Only cuz Taker threatened to beat his ass if he didn’t lol

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

They were stars like booker t and jeff jarrett were stars at the end of wcw

Nah because the company went under. WWE actually stayed alive with Bret and Shawn.

[Bad News Gertner]

Barely

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

AND THEN Bret helped make Steve Austin leading to the boom period. WM13 turned Austin into a truly blood and guts babyface. In fact, the argument could be made that the Hart Foundation angle versus Austin got the ball rolling. The ratings weren't going to flip on a dime - it had to start somewhere and Bret's heel turn signified the start of a shift.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Barely

Maybe if Kevin Sullivan was the booker they'd have drawn more.

[Destor]

Nah because the company went under. WWE actually stayed alive with Bret and Shawn.
Only went under due to the AOL Time Warner merger. The financials were stronger for 2000's WCW. But thats a poor justification on your part; numbers be damned. Bankruptcy was a real concern and they had to use smaller and smaller venues throughout his entire run.

Liking a guys work and him being good are not the same thing and thats what mid-90s WWF fans dont get. That entire era should be remembered as a failure.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

but the fact is they went under while WWE didn't.

I could list a million reasons why Bret AND Shawn got boned during their runs at the top but you'll just point to the numbers. At the end of the day, WCW failed and flopped. WWF kept afloat until they hit their boom and trounced WCW.

[Destor]

Which had nothing to do with bret. In fact he went from a company that struggling that boomed when he left to a company booming that then began to fail

[Destor]

Employing bret hart is the kiss of death

[Destor]

Bret hart could sponsor milk and in a week everyone would buy soy

[Destor]

:p

[Evil Vito]

When I'm having trouble sleeping, I just need to fire up a Bret Hart match.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Vito and Destor= both dead 2 me.

[Loose Cannon]

In all seriousness i would agree with Bret, Shawn and everyone else not being a draw from 93-97. But i also believe you can't really put the blame on one person. People like to shit on Nash and his run, but the overall product was pretty shitty. It's so hard to watch that era. There's some rays of light, but it was pretty awful. Pretty comparable to today's product actually.

Anyway when you get to 97 and you start having a good mix of storylines and characters, Bret, Shawn, Taker and Austin pretty much hit a homerun and started the boom. To me, the boom period started when Bret came back in late 96 with Austin. And you had HBK/Sid, Taker/Mankind. Fans were seeing something different and the everything started to take off. the product was a lot more edgier. I remember that promo Bret did when he lost to Sid in the cage on Raw when he pushed Vince and said "Frustrated isn't a god dam word for it...This is Bullshit." as a 13 year old, pretty much the greatest thing i'd ever seen lol." And i'm sure tons of people ate that up. things like that completely reinvented the product

So I guess what I am trying to say is I believe nobody on top would of made a difference during that era (93-96 specifically) The product lagged behind society change and it killed wrestling. Bret's my fav wrestler by far, but unfortunately the business was the shits during his time on top. Even the numbers in 97 weren't anything special, but i believe 100% that 97 turned the business around like i said earlier.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Cannon pretty much hit the nail on the head for me. But Bret's detractors have made up their minds.

[Destor]

I dont accept this. Give him credit for his successes but ignore his failures jazz is easy to do for people you like but it isnt objective. The top guy gets to enjoy that reward of success but he has the burden of failure as well. Fewer people watched bret hart lead the WWF than watched Bokker T lead WCW. Thats a fact. His run as the companies top act saw ticket sales fall. Thats a fact. Him being the best thing on a bad show doesnt change the fact people werent wanting to him headline shows.

Again there is a strong difference between liking a guys work and him being a star. If im going to go back and watch matches from that era its a good bet that is HBM of Hart that im watching but me being a mark for these guys doesnt change the fact they were bad draws and their biggest contributions from that time were stepping aside.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Neither was given a chance to draw and you know it. It was a down time in the business and neither HBM, Bret, or even Diesel's fault. A lot of it had to do with how out of touch Vince was.

Look at the undercard when Hogan was on top. Then look at the undercard when Bret, Diesel, and Michaels were on top. And look at the storylines too. Just fucking terrible. You're blaming these guys for Vince's failures.

It's not so cut and dry IMO. Bret rose to the top because he was a star and the small amount of fans they had left loved him. Same with Shawn.

Not everyone can be Stone Cold Steve Austin or the Rock. But they can still be "top guys". The biggest shame for me is Bret wasn't around during Austin's reign because they really brought the best out of one another.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Hogan had every main eventer from every territory as his undercard.

Bret and Shawn had Duke the Dumpster and Mantaur.

[Destor]

"neither was given chance"

The fuck does that even mean. They built the company around them for half a decade.

[Destor]

Every always blames the office. If I dont get my job done I dont blame my boss. VInce wasnt mishandling funds like WCW was his guys werent selling tickets. Whos job do you think that is?

Im paid to get over.

[Destor]

Could you imagine if a musician blamed a low house on the opening act?

[Bad News Gertner]

Hogan had every main eventer from every territory as his undercard.

Bret and Shawn had Duke the Dumpster and Mantaur.

Stone Cole did incredible business in 98 with just as shitty an undercard as Bret did. Go watch the 98 Rumble and see all the duds in it.

[Destor]

People would pay to hear freebird even if Hanson went on first.

[Destor]

Stone Cole did incredible business in 98 with just as shitty an undercard as Bret did. Go watch the 98 Rumble and see all the duds in it.

TRUTH

[Bad News Gertner]

Lol the tag division were the New Age Outlaws, repackaged Godwins , stale Headbangers, New Midnight Express and repackaged Legion of Doom.

[Bad News Gertner]

Stone Cold feuded with Dude Love after Mania 14.

[Destor]

At the peak of the attitude era the undercard was 70% shit

[Shisen Kopf]

Lol the tag division were the New Age Outlaws, repackaged Godwins , stale Headbangers, New Midnight Express and repackaged Legion of Doom.

Solid bunch of teams. They cant all be Luke Graham and Tarzan Tyler.

[LibSuperstar]

Loose Cannon and Dastardly One nailed it. Storylines and characters were way more interesting in '97. '95, which is considered to be one of WWE's worst yrs, saw a ton of silly, crappy gimmicks that nobody could get invested in and no credible challengers for Diesel. You couldn't replace Hogan though Vince certainly tried w/ Luger and Diesel. When the nWo came along it was the perfect storm b/c nothing compelling was going on in WWF or WCW plus the counter culture of the late '90s. Not to mention WWF benefitted greatly from the Screwjob b/c Vince was very believable as the Mr. McMahon character.

[Loose Cannon]

I wouldn't say the undercard workers had as much to do with the success or failure of the show as the people writing or making decisions behind the scenes did.

I agree if you're paid to main event and you don't sell tickets, the blame usually falls on one guy and it's usually the guy on top. can't really argue that. but i don't think Vince, the writers nor the wrestlers understood what people really wanted during that time. we wouldn't find out until the nWo angle that people wanted a more realistic and edgier product.

So if you went the cut a dry route, was Bret a draw: nope. but until the product chnaged as a whole, nobody could draw anything. Even Taker, Savage, HBK, Sting, Flair, Vader, Nash, Backlund and Hogan.

Although it's funny, Hogan was a draw for a bit there in WCW. The guy can spark some interest.

And Gertner, that's like the worst example you could throw out there. That card has Taker/HBK on there with the hot Kane angle. Plus New Age Outlaws were starting to get over huge around that time. And you had the start of the Rock character, which people loved to hate.

[Evil Vito]

https://goo.gl/images/JXdnjH

[Bad News Gertner]

Go watch the 98 Rumble.

The undercard didn't get deep until early 1999.

[Shisen Kopf]

1998 rumble was a great show. Stop talking nonsense

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

the company wasn't built around Bret. He was always mid card champ.

[Shisen Kopf]

It even had a midget match

[Destor]

the company wasn't built around Bret. He was always mid card champ.

Bullshit

[#1-norm-fan]

Shawn Michaels is my favorite wrestler of all time by a mile but I have no problem admitting he did not work as the face of the company in the 90's. He just wasn't the kind of larger than life personality that drew money on a big stage at the time. Bret was in the same boat.

[#1-norm-fan]

Of course, Michaels had the personality, charisma and showmanship to eventually become a star but that's another story.

[Shisen Kopf]

Shawn Michaels is my favorite wrestler of all time by a mile but I have no problem admitting he did not work as the face of the company in the 90's. He just wasn't the kind of larger than life personality that drew money on a big stage at the time. Bret was in the same boat.

Did you buy his Playgirl magazine?!

[Bad News Gertner]

Here's the 1998 SummerSlam card.

Lol the undercard is horrible. 2 match show. The undercard didn't get good until very late 98/early 99

SUMMERSLAM 1998█RESULTS

- D'Lo Brown def. Val Venis
- The Oddities def. Kaientai
- X-Pac def. Jeff Jarrett
- Edge & Sable def. Marc Mero & Jacqueline
- Ken Shamrock def. Owen Hart
- The New Age Outlaws def. Mankind
- Triple H def. The Rock
- Stone Cold Steve Austin def. Undertaker

[KIRA]

The best Bret Hart has ever been
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=96s&v=FxCDDlSw9-A

[Damian Rey 2.0]

"And if you don't like it, tough shit!" is the greatest line he's ever said.

[Loose Cannon]

he crushed that. grand slam sir

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

actually listened to bischoff bury hart for 2 hours. I see kind of where Bischoff is coming from.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

will probably become friendly with Bret again like Flair did.

[The MAC]

Bischoffs podcast is what you would expect from a guy who has his nose so far up hogans ass. He "doesnt remember" a lot

[Damian Rey 2.0]

What'd he say?

[Juan]

So Destor, do you not like Bret Hart because he wasn’t a draw or are you just not a fan?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Here's the 1998 SummerSlam card.

Lol the undercard is horrible. 2 match show. The undercard didn't get good until very late 98/early 99

SUMMERSLAM 1998█RESULTS

- D'Lo Brown def. Val Venis
- The Oddities def. Kaientai
- X-Pac def. Jeff Jarrett
- Edge & Sable def. Marc Mero & Jacqueline
- Ken Shamrock def. Owen Hart
- The New Age Outlaws def. Mankind
- Triple H def. The Rock
- Stone Cold Steve Austin def. Undertaker

Would rather watch this card than the shit today, and I don't know if that's a compliment to that card or not. Like, The Outlaws were a hollow act, Jeff Jarrett and Val Venis were bland to the point they lost viewers and Mero was dead at this point, but only The Oddities really offend me. I do agree with your point that the Attitude era was built off the back of Austin, however. I think one of the biggest myths about the era is that the whole show was strong. Well, it was strong when it was built around Austin and what Austin was going to do next. The Russo gimmicks were fucking turgid to the point that Sable was legitimately the second biggest draw they had for a while there.

Bret, to me, is the perfect performative star. What he does in the ring is the story, and when you're in the know that becomes the story. It's probably not the best idea to build around a guy like Bret Hart when you are trying to appeal to a national audience. He seems like the perfect Intercontinental Champion for that sort of era (and I don't mean that as an insult).

I blast all the guys today because they are all geeks and don't draw any money and bore me to fucking tears with their cookie-cutter personalities. Would it be hypocritical of me to see Dale's point about the WWF fucking sucking at this period, because it was contaminated by the rotten philosophy of Vince McMahon?

If Vince had not had WCW breathing down his neck, does he ever go with Austin in the first place? I truly think that if Vince has his own way, it's fuck Stone Cold, let's go with Billy Gunn, and there's nothing you can do about it. Vince went with what was hot because he was on the back foot, which rarely happens. And for that reason, I don't know how pure the "Austin did it" argument is. Austin is proof of what a star can do.

But when you get the push and you don't deliver? Gosh, it's hard. I blame Seth Rollins as much as the office for how much he sucked as World Champion. But how is anybody supposed to stand out there? Ultimately, I do think that somebody with genuine charisma could do it. Goldberg came in and proved what happens when you have a man in the house. The New Day found a way to get their own stuff in and are still reaping in the merchandise.

I don't really know whether or not to call Bret a failure or not, because I've always taken this period for granted according to the broad strokes of general knowledge. Was Bret in a position to draw? It seems like it, but I can also see the point that the booking around him a lot of the time was shit. I honestly think it's that shared responsibility thing.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Did Shawn Michaels ever become a draw? The WrestleMania events he headlined were notoriously well-known for not doing as well as others around them, I thought (save for WrestleMania 23, which was aided by Vince vs. Trump).

[Mr. Nerfect]

Would rather watch this card than the shit today, and I don't know if that's a compliment to that card or not. Like, The Outlaws were a hollow act, Jeff Jarrett and Val Venis were bland to the point they lost viewers and Mero was dead at this point, but only The Oddities really offend me. I do agree with your point that the Attitude era was built off the back of Austin, however. I think one of the biggest myths about the era is that the whole show was strong. Well, it was strong when it was built around Austin and what Austin was going to do next. The Russo gimmicks were fucking turgid to the point that Sable was legitimately the second biggest draw they had for a while there.

Bret, to me, is the perfect performative star. What he does in the ring is the story, and when you're in the know that becomes the story. It's probably not the best idea to build around a guy like Bret Hart when you are trying to appeal to a national audience. He seems like the perfect Intercontinental Champion for that sort of era (and I don't mean that as an insult).

I blast all the guys today because they are all geeks and don't draw any money and bore me to fucking tears with their cookie-cutter personalities. Would it be hypocritical of me to see Dale's point about the WWF fucking sucking at this period, because it was contaminated by the rotten philosophy of Vince McMahon?

If Vince had not had WCW breathing down his neck, does he ever go with Austin in the first place? I truly think that if Vince has his own way, it's fuck Stone Cold, let's go with Billy Gunn, and there's nothing you can do about it. Vince went with what was hot because he was on the back foot, which rarely happens. And for that reason, I don't know how pure the "Austin did it" argument is. Austin is proof of what a star can do.

But when you get the push and you don't deliver? Gosh, it's hard. I blame Seth Rollins as much as the office for how much he sucked as World Champion. But how is anybody supposed to stand out there? Ultimately, I do think that somebody with genuine charisma could do it. Goldberg came in and proved what happens when you have a man in the house. The New Day found a way to get their own stuff in and are still reaping in the merchandise.

I don't really know whether or not to call Bret a failure or not, because I've always taken this period for granted according to the broad strokes of general knowledge. Was Bret in a position to draw? It seems like it, but I can also see the point that the booking around him a lot of the time was shit. I honestly think it's that shared responsibility thing.

This is not a very well-constructed representation of my views, and was more of a meandering ramble. Basically, I've grown to really appreciate Bret Hart's work, but I also understand that he was hardly in the same league of stardom as Sammartino, Hogan, Austin, etc.

Something to throw into the mix: John Cena fucking tanked ratings as WWE Champion. He moved merchandise and the company has stretched itself out into different revenue streams under him, but I think amongst the general respect for the individual and the length of time he has been consistently featured at the top, it's often forgotten that people did not want to see him in the main event either.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah I'm not sitting here saying Bret Hart was Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin. I just don't think you can take away that he was amazing and had a hell of a career.

[Destor]

So Destor, do you not like Bret Hart because he wasn’t a draw or are you just not a fan?

I love his work. But when the conversation is legacy as a top guy I think Bret's is very poor and I like to think im objective enough to differentiate between the two.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I love his work. But when the conversation is legacy as a top guy I think Bret's is very poor and I like to think im objective enough to differentiate between the two.

I dunno. There's enough people that love Bret's work that it doesn't justify how much he gets shit on, more importantly, how much you shit on him.

[Destor]

I never shit on his work, I shit on the fruit of his work. Which there is none.

"That dog wont hunt"

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

He certainly bore a lot of fruits for his work. Plus, he was one of those guys that while he didn't push the needle like an Austin or Hogan, the live crowd was 100% invested in what he was doing.

And again, he helped lay the ground work and helped develop the Austin character. Comparatively, Hogan may himself have drawn but he never once effectively passed the torch. The closest I GUESS was Warrior but let's not pretend Hulk didn't make the aftermath all about him.

I mean look at how Hogan left. Wouldn't put over Bret. Pretty much stripped WWF of all its credibility, did a half hearted job to Yoko (who was never going to be a flag bearer).

For all of Bret's inability to draw, Austin's feud with Bret made Steve one of the hottest acts in wrestling. Sure, it's fortuitous for you to make ham-fisted claims that Bret left and ONLY BECAUSE OF THAT did the company get hot. No, it got hot because Bret didn't kill the fucking town when he left. He actually helped make guys.

Obviously Bret's not the only reason, but if you don't think he was 100% instrumental in helping make Steve, well why don't you just ask Steve how he feels about that?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

By "he bore a lot of fruits for his work" I meant he himself made a fuck load of money.

[Bad News Gertner]

Bret tried to kill the town when he left. Vince just ended up spinning it into gold.

Lol Bret wanted a dq finish in the Main Event of a major ppv and then hand the title over on Raw while jumping to the competition who happens to be kicking their ass.

How does that remotely put the WWF in a good light?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Bret tried to kill the town when he left. Vince just ended up spinning it into gold.

Lol Bret wanted a dq finish in the Main Event of a major ppv and then hand the title over on Raw while jumping to the competition who happens to be kicking their ass.

How does that remotely put the WWF in a good light?

Oh fuck off Gert lol

This has been explained ad nauseam a million times. First of all, Michaels was a prick to Bret. Told him he'd never job to him. I've heard tons of wrestlers say they'd never have jobbed to Michaels under the same circumstances.

He said he'd have jobbed out any other time after Montreal to Shawn (he was still under contract). He'd have jobbed to anyone BEFORE Montreal other than Shawn. I'm not blaming Vince for doing what he did but let's not act like Bret was the only guilty party.

But whatever, keep servicing your retarded narrative.

[Destor]

By "he bore a lot of fruits for his work" I meant he himself made a fuck load of money.

thats not much of a legacy

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

He also main evented Wrestlemanias, sold out Wembley Stadium, and created a fuck load of memorable moments while making millions of dollars for himself.

I'll take that legacy.

[Destor]

of course you would but that isnt the topic at hand. the real issue with tryign to talk about brets achievements is bret marks are just like "I loved him sooooooo much" and base an argument around that. It isnt objective. He had a fine career, most would be envious. But if we're talking about writing the definitive history of pro wrestling bret comes up at most twice. He just didnt have that meaningful of a career in hindsight.

[#1-norm-fan]

Oh fuck off Gert lol

This has been explained ad nauseam a million times. First of all, Michaels was a prick to Bret. Told him he'd never job to him. I've heard tons of wrestlers say they'd never have jobbed to Michaels under the same circumstances.

He said he'd have jobbed out any other time after Montreal to Shawn (he was still under contract). He'd have jobbed to anyone BEFORE Montreal other than Shawn. I'm not blaming Vince for doing what he did but let's not act like Bret was the only guilty party.

But whatever, keep servicing your retarded narrative.

You're rationalizing. "He was a dick to me" isn't a reason to refuse to drop the title to the guy they wanna push. He was on his way out and they wanted HBK to get the rub off of him on his way out. He should have dropped the title to a broom if they wanted him to instead of being a mark for himself and refusing to lose a fake title to a guy because he was mean to him. End of story.

[Mr. Nerfect]

of course you would but that isnt the topic at hand. the real issue with tryign to talk about brets achievements is bret marks are just like "I loved him sooooooo much" and base an argument around that. It isnt objective. He had a fine career, most would be envious. But if we're talking about writing the definitive history of pro wrestling bret comes up at most twice. He just didnt have that meaningful of a career in hindsight.

But that's not what Dale's doing here. He's making a pretty good case for Bret, to be honest. I get annoyed at the subjectivity on the internet as much as anybody (this place infuriated me with its Alexa Bliss goddess worship a while back), but I think Bret is more significant than two mentions. I think he's an important part of WWF history (the dominant company, dark as this timeline might be), and is chained to major moments and events.

On Bret refusing to drop the belt to Michaels: Why did Vince even have it on him when he was clearly going to step away from Bret anyway? Why does Vince not take the blame in setting this situation up for himself? HBK was really hard to deal with during the period, and I can understand why Bret would not want to lose to the prick in his home country. Especially if it pissed off Bischoff who should have reasonably seen money in Canada, and could have held it against Bret if he tarnished that reservoir. Hell, The Rock has refused to even work with Shawn Michaels.

It's easy to say "Bret should have done what he was told," but wrestling had a lot more prestige and cache then. Michaels refused to drop belts to countless people himself. Austin refused to work with certain individuals. And I'd applaud Brock if he refused to drop the belt to a limited piece of shit he needs to beat up to get into position like Braun Strowman. Lying down for Michaels in Canada was a dumb idea for Vince to present, frankly.

[Bad News Gertner]

He also main evented Wrestlemanias, sold out Wembley Stadium, and created a fuck load of memorable moments while making millions of dollars for himself.

I'll take that legacy.

Bulldog drew Wembley. Bret pulled a HHH cling job

[Destor]

But that's not what Dale's doing here. He's making a pretty good case for Bret, to be honest.
We'll have to disagree on that one

[Mr. Nerfect]

Bulldog drew Wembley. Bret pulled a HHH cling job

:lol:

[Destor]

Its a fair argument HOWEVER the english love grappling based wrestling so the prospect of a home town boy working a worker that works the style they like def played a factor

HOWEVER bringing up the time bret sold out an arena in this conversation proved how thin his catalogue of achievements is

[Destor]

Also Wembley holds 90k and they only sold 80k SO HE DIDNT EVEN DO THAT.

Sick draw though. But not a sell out.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Its a fair argument HOWEVER the english love grappling based wrestling so the prospect of a home town boy working a worker that works the style they like def played a factor

HOWEVER bringing up the time bret sold out an arena in this conversation proved how thin his catalogue of achievements is

Isn't the English loving Bret's style kind of the point there though? Like, Americans loved them some Hogan, but you can't really say "Well, Americans love big, blond tan dudes who can sell. You kind of have to factor how good Hogan was at his job when attributing success to him."

[Destor]

If England had a prominent role in wrestling in the mid 90s bret would have legacy worth the telling of it. They didnt though so he doesnt.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Okay, fair point. That show is pretty legendary though. SummerSlam '92 being WWF's legit biggest gate while they used those initials is pretty prominent. I'm sure the region was thirsty for a show like that though, kind of like how Cody Rhodes is able to get 10,000 people in or around Chicago to go and see a non-WWE show. I'm not saying that there are as many Bret Hart fans as Beatles fans in the UK or anything, but when you're talking about giant crowds for the WWF, then it's WrestleMania III and SummerSlam '92, surely? That's a mention for Bret.

[Destor]

Its a high point for Bret. Probably the peak. Not sure id go around sucking my own dick for one big night if the company had to play in increasingly smaller venues for the rest of your tenure. But that night was a big night.

And "the second biggest gate while they had those initials" is going out of our way to create a belt to get this guy over.

And thats brets legacy. Everytime he comes up until people forget who he is will be this debate. "Was he good enough."

And if you have to ask...

[Loose Cannon]

tried thinking where i would rank Bret in WWE history in terms of overall everything (matches, drawing, moments, time on top etc...)

I would think somewhere in the 15-20 range is fair. would you guys put anyone ahead of him post 2005 era minus Cena? (I already included HBK, Brock, HHH, Taker as pre 2005).

Maybe Edge and even Punk. Punk had one hell of a 2 year run. Orton, Batista, Eddie, JBL?

probably a discussion for another thread. but it makes you think a bit.

[#1-norm-fan]

Overall everything, I'd put a few guys above him. There have definitely been some guys who have been a more complete package. As a draw? I don't know. The company is kinda built so no one draws anymore outside of Cena/the legends.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Goldberg created a little spike for Survivor Series, but no one has really drawn since The Rock came back in 2011. He's a one million buy guy.

[BigCrippyZ]

tried thinking where i would rank Bret in WWE history in terms of overall everything (matches, drawing, moments, time on top etc...)

I would think somewhere in the 15-20 range is fair. would you guys put anyone ahead of him post 2005 era minus Cena? (I already included HBK, Brock, HHH, Taker as pre 2005).

Maybe Edge and even Punk. Punk had one hell of a 2 year run. Orton, Batista, Eddie, JBL?

probably a discussion for another thread. but it makes you think a bit.

Above Bret? Edge? No. Punk? No. Certainly not Orton, Batista, or JBL either. Not in terms of draw nor in terms of talent.

Eddie was (arguably) equally talented (or at best slightly better than Bret) BUT he was also given the freedom to show it in a period where he had already been developed to be comfortable to do so when he was finally actually given the opportunity. That was not the case for Bret, no matter his natural talent level. Eddie was (at MOST) an equal draw, but again, that's hard to say given the roster split and differing time periods.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Eddie is the only one that comes to mind from the post-Attitude era for me too. He was a hit with that Hispanic demographic. That being said, I do think you need to adjust for inflation a little bit. I think a 2.5 then means a lot more than a 2.5 now. And I know there are more channels now, but I think the WWE has a built-in audience that just isn't turning off. Raw was finding itself during the time of Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels in a period where there were other wrestling options widely known.

[Bad News Gertner]

Punk, Orton and Edge were all better than Bret.

[Bad News Gertner]

A modern day equivalent of Bret Hart in terms of drawing ability and talent is Dean Ambrose.

[LibSuperstar]

The way attendance is down I don't see anyone drawing 10K+ regularly anytime soon.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">He was a draw at a certain level. Enough to be the top guy in WWF for years but not at the Hogan, Austin, Rock level <a href="https://t.co/kPZzFbF7by">https://t.co/kPZzFbF7by</a></p>&mdash; Dave Meltzer (@davemeltzerWON) <a href="https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/996815554261303296?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 16, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Punk, Orton and Edge were all better than Bret.

lmfao absolutely fucking not. You're just such a hater it's ridiculous.

[#1-norm-fan]

Whatever edge Hart had over Punk in the ring, Punk WAY more than made up for as an overall performer. He was better.

[#1-norm-fan]

And Orton would have been miles better as the face of the company.

Not a huge fan of Edge so... meh.

[#1-norm-fan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">He was a draw at a certain level. Enough to be the top guy in WWF for years but not at the Hogan, Austin, Rock level <a href="https://t.co/kPZzFbF7by">https://t.co/kPZzFbF7by</a></p>&mdash; Dave Meltzer (@davemeltzerWON) <a href="https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/996815554261303296?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 16, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

"Years"? lol He was the top guy for a year or so after Hogan left (and after they tried to push Luger as the new face of the company) before they went with Diesel then Shawn to be the top guy because Bret wasn't working.

[LibSuperstar]

"Years"? lol He was the top guy for a year or so after Hogan left (and after they tried to push Luger as the new face of the company) before they went with Diesel then Shawn to be the top guy because Bret wasn't working.

Yet Diesel didn't draw well. He got kept as champion b/c he was big w/o muscles and Vince tried to replace Hogan as he did w/ Luger.

[#1-norm-fan]

None of them drew at the time. Including Bret. If he did, they wouldn't have needed the others.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol fuck how can I argue with Todd Pettingil? HE WAS THERE.

[#1-norm-fan]

Consider this argument over.

https://i.imgur.com/8MZPLd8.gif

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

THE TODDSTER

[LibSuperstar]

None of them drew at the time. Including Bret. If he did, they wouldn't have needed the others.

Compared to Hogan of course they didn't draw though Hart had more time to be The Guy thus more opportunities headline more. Nash was lower on the Top 50 Draws list I posted.

[Bad News Gertner]

And Orton would have been miles better as the face of the company.

Not a huge fan of Edge so... meh.

Edge as a heel with Lita is my favourite pairing of the past 20 years

[#1-norm-fan]

Lita's tits can make anyone seem better.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Whatever edge Hart had over Punk in the ring, Punk WAY more than made up for as an overall performer. He was better.

I've got this disagree with this. Punk could promo and I enjoyed a lot of his work, but retroactively there is no way Punk was overall better. I'd take Hart any day of the week. Punk's got one slight buyrate increase to his name. We've already discussed Wembley.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I never really bought into Edge. I have no hate for the guy, and I wish they had run with him more at the start of 2006, but something just doesn't connect there. I was thinking just yesterday that the dude was always in the main event though. Once he got up there, did they ever move him down to the mid-card for even a snooze? He won the belt in 2006, I can't remember what he did in 2007, he was headlining in 2008, in 2009 he was in the World Heavyweight Title scene at least, 2010 was still the World Heavyweight Title scene and more Jericho stuff, then it was Del Rio and he was done.

[#1-norm-fan]

I've got this disagree with this. Punk could promo and I enjoyed a lot of his work, but retroactively there is no way Punk was overall better. I'd take Hart any day of the week. Punk's got one slight buyrate increase to his name. We've already discussed Wembley.

I said he was a better overall performer. If you wanna use houses where they headlined as the be all end all, you're putting yourself in the position of having to rationalize how Bret was better than a lot of guys I'm sure you think he's actually better than. Like Roman Reigns.

[#1-norm-fan]

Also, Bulldog. Who was a bigger draw for that show than Bret. And you just can't honesty argue against that.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol Bulldog never drew anyone to anywhere.

[#1-norm-fan]

Seriously? You think people came to Wembley because of Bret and not Bulldog? Come on. lol

[Destor]

Laughable

[Mr. Nerfect]

I said he was a better overall performer. If you wanna use houses where they headlined as the be all end all, you're putting yourself in the position of having to rationalize how Bret was better than a lot of guys I'm sure you think he's actually better than. Like Roman Reigns.

I have no clue what you're trying to say here. I mean, I get that you think that Punk was overall better, but I'm saying that I don't think he was. So...okay?

Also, I'm sure the time will come where I will take Reigns over Punk too. I don't really miss Punk at all.

[LibSuperstar]

Seriously? You think people came to Wembley because of Bret and not Bulldog? Come on. lol

They came for both, Bulldog moreso.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Bulldog was over in England, but so was Bret.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah I guess they should have just booked Bulldog versus Berzerker. Would have drawn the same.

[Bad News Gertner]

If it was for the IC title then yes it would have.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Nah maybe Repoman instead.

[Bad News Gertner]

Bret was just "there"

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Davey Boy Smith vs. Reno Riggins

[#1-norm-fan]

I have no clue what you're trying to say here. I mean, I get that you think that Punk was overall better, but I'm saying that I don't think he was. So...okay?

Also, I'm sure the time will come where I will take Reigns over Punk too. I don't really miss Punk at all.

Will you take Reigns over Bret? I was saying your use of "Wembley vs Punk's one buyrate" to determine who was better is flawed.

[#1-norm-fan]

Yeah I guess they should have just booked Bulldog versus Berzerker. Would have drawn the same.

It would have drawn way more than Bret vs Berzerker.

[LibSuperstar]

It would have drawn way more than Bret vs Berzerker.

Doubt that much more. Nobody wants to see Berzerker in a main event.

[Destor]

It would have drawn way more than Bret vs Berzerker.

Honestly...fair

[Mr. Nerfect]

Will you take Reigns over Bret? I was saying your use of "Wembley vs Punk's one buyrate" to determine who was better is flawed.

Nah, Bret over Reigns. I was just referencing that as one aspect of their game. I think I was severely overrating Punk at the time. I didn't care as much about him as I wanted to even then.

[Loose Cannon]

Fair point about Wembley. Bulldog does not draw against Berserker though lol.

I will say this, Bret did draw the highest two wrestlemania main events from 91-97. and it wasn't Wrestlemania 12. it was 9 and 10. You could argue the Hogan factor for 9. I was actually surprised buy this

430,000 for 9
420,000 for 10

WM 7 did 400
WM 8 did 390

Maybe people really liked Yoko and Bret

[Loose Cannon]

WM 13: 237,000. Last place. poor Taker and Sid :(

[LibSuperstar]

Fair point about Wembley. Bulldog does not draw against Berserker though lol.

I will say this, Bret did draw the highest two wrestlemania main events from 91-97. and it wasn't Wrestlemania 12. it was 9 and 10. You could argue the Hogan factor for 9. I was actually surprised buy this

430,000 for 9
420,000 for 10

WM 7 did 400
WM 8 did 390

Maybe people really liked Yoko and Bret

Gotta look at which match was advertised most.

[Loose Cannon]

Gotta look at which match was advertised most.

That kind of goes back to what i was saying earlier, i really believe if your name wasn't Hogan, Austin and mayyyyybe Rock, you needed other guys/matches/storylines on the card to help you draw.

In my opinion Austin and Hogan could of drawn wrestling a broom stick while the rest of the card was midgets. At least when they were hot. Rock's a maybe.

And this is just WWF. Obviously Flair in NWA would be another.

[Mr. Nerfect]

SummerSlam '94 also did much better than SummerSlam '93. 50,000 buys better. The Taker/Faker bullshit was in the main, but Bret was the WWF Champion going against Owen in the cage.

[#1-norm-fan]

Leslie Goddamn Nielsen was the draw of SummerSlam '94.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

:lol: Fan I think I've grown to love our feud over the merits Bret Hart.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

You fuck.

[Loose Cannon]

SummerSlam '94 also did much better than SummerSlam '93. 50,000 buys better. The Taker/Faker bullshit was in the main, but Bret was the WWF Champion going against Owen in the cage.

I guess Vince made the right call in not putting the strap on Luger

[#1-norm-fan]

https://media.giphy.com/media/deZaWguLmlaXS/giphy.gif

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol the vignettes were obviously amazing cuz of Nielson but dear god the writing was so bad.

[#1-norm-fan]

This is a wrestling website and there's a poster named after Nielsen's character. There's no poster named "Bret Hart". Point Nielsen.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

:rant:

[Bad News Gertner]

This is a wrestling website and there's a poster named after Nielsen's character. There's no poster named "Bret Hart". Point Nielsen.

You mean there isn't a poster named whiny bitch?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think we can all agree that Leslie Nielsen would have been a better World Champion than David Arquette.

[Bad News Gertner]

He would have drawn more money than Bret ever did

[SenatorJPO]

Yes, Bret Hart publicized backstage drama like few wrestlers have done since.

He was a primary motivator behind Barry Blaustein's year-2000 film <i>Beyond the Mat</i>.

In this sense, Bret could be seen as a precursor to <i>Total Bellas</i>, <i>Hogan Knows Best</i>, and other pro-wrestling reality programming.

Outside wrestling, Bret sired Blade, Jade, and Alexandra, so "there's that."

[Destor]

Thats a stretch