Looking back at the Invasion angle today

[Loose Cannon]

I'm curious to know what you guys think about the Invasion angle from March 2001-November looking back at it today? I remember back when i was living through it, I hated it just like most other fans. It had some shining moments like the ECW turn, but overall I thought it could of been done much better. And I think a lot of us had the same views.

Looking back at it today though and comparing it to today's product, it really wasn't bad at all. I'd take the Invasion as a whole over anything of the last 10 years to be honest. We got some amazing matches and tons of interesting characters. The roster was ridiculous.

People, including myself, were always pissed that guys like Nash, Hall, Hogan, Goldberg, Flair etc.. weren't involved during that time and we'd later learn they had contracts that basically paid them more to sit at home. But I'd almost argue would they of made the product worse? I look at 2002-2003 when they were added to the WWE Roster and i didn't enjoy the product as much.


So what are your thoughts? does 2001 still suck in your mind or have you come to appreciate it more?

[Sixx]

Loose Cannon.

[Swiss Ultimate]

It just was really sloppily done. Very surreal, but ultimately not a great time.

[LibSuperstar]

They didn't have all the necessary guys to make it credible due to contracts as you mentioned OP. When some of those guys did come (e.g. Goldberg, nWo, DDP) it fell flat. Booker T made out best of those who did.

[Nicky Fives]

I liked it, but it could have been done 10 times better easily and drawn out for a lot longer

[Sixx]

It sucked ass.

Good idea, bad execution.

Also, once they finally brought in the big names... DDP stalking Taker's wife has to be one the dumbest storylines ever and that's saying something.

[slik]

Great idea but really bad


Like Sixx said...Taker/DDP...so much fail. I remember how awful Booker T vs Buff Bagwell was and the announce team...just bad.

[Loose Cannon]

Don't just look at the storylines though. wouldn't you at least say the matches we got out of it were pretty darn good or no? And would you say it's still better then anything they've done the last few years?

[LibSuperstar]

Don't just look at the storylines though. wouldn't you at least say the matches we got out of it were pretty darn good or no? And would you say it's still better then anything they've done the last few years?

The Survivor Series match is still heralded as one of the best ever (Survivor Elimination matches especially).

[Loose Cannon]

The Survivor Series match is still heralded as one of the best ever (Survivor Elimination matches especially).

I agree, love that match. I also loved the Austin turn at Invasion. didn't see it coming and i guess it made sense being he was doing his paranoid character at the time.

I did love Austin during this whole run. actually one of the reasons i made this thread was because a lot of people were saying Austins turn was horrible. I hated it at first because it seemed odd, but we saw how diverse Austin could be. He hit a home run in character portrayal during this time. He played someone completely different from 97-2000. i did enjoy the two man power trip too even if it was brief and i wouldn't put as part of the Invasion era.

[Big Vic]

Feel like if they held off a year it could have been much better. they could still sign some people and hold em in OVW until it was time to start.

[Loose Cannon]

I'd agree in a holy shit sense and the first few Raw's would of been amazing. But then i still have the think the matches wouldn't of been as good. Hogan is Hogan and his matches will always bring it. But Hall, Nash, Goldberg, Steiner were pretty terrible in their WWE runs. So i think they may of hindered the PPV's.

But from a storyline sense, I'd agree they would of been much better to have.


Although we never would of got that ECW moment and to me, that's a top 20 moment in the history of WWF. That was insane.

[Sixx]

I'd agree in a holy shit sense and the first few Raw's would of been amazing. But then i still have the think the matches wouldn't of been as good. Hogan is Hogan and his matches will always bring it. But Hall, Nash, Goldberg, Steiner were pretty terrible in their WWE runs. So i think they may of hindered the PPV's.

But from a storyline sense, I'd agree they would of been much better to have.


Although we never would of got that ECW moment and to me, that's a top 20 moment in the history of WWF. That was insane.

What ECW moment?

[Loose Cannon]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1vzcz

<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x1vzcz" allowfullscreen allow="autoplay"></iframe>

[Loose Cannon]

lol

[XL]

Ha. Just posted a link to the video on YouTube, then deleted it as I couldn’t work out how to embed it using an iPad knowing that people are fussy about that sort of thing.

[Sixx]

Could you repost it as a link? I hate dailymotion.

[Loose Cannon]

I think I fixed it

[Emperor Smeat]

Thought the idea was great up until Stone Cold's heel turn.

WWE really should have waited till after they got more of WCW's top stars or done it as a two-wave invasion. Having to combine WCW and ECW together and still needing some of WWE's biggest stars on top of it should have been a clear sign the Invasion storyline wasn't going to work.

Fun fact, that storyline pretty much caused WWE to lose like a third of their audience at the time and never regained the WCW and ECW audiences that carried over from the demise of both companies.

[Ruien]

It was so much fun for me. DDP should have been brought in as a big deal mike Booket T. Would have given the invasion its third legit star (RVD too). But whatever. Everything was fresh and stayed fresh for months.

Could it have been better? Of course. But it was still fun.

[Ruien]

Only thing I really didnt like was the Kurt Angle turn.

[Innovator]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1vzcz

<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x1vzcz" allowfullscreen allow="autoplay"></iframe>

It was fantastic.

But at the end of the night, ECW was owned and headed up by Stephanie in a leather kangol hat.

[LibSuperstar]

Thought the idea was great up until Stone Cold's heel turn.

WWE really should have waited till after they got more of WCW's top stars or done it as a two-wave invasion. Having to combine WCW and ECW together and still needing some of WWE's biggest stars on top of it should have been a clear sign the Invasion storyline wasn't going to work.

Fun fact, that storyline pretty much caused WWE to lose like a third of their audience at the time and never regained the WCW and ECW audiences that carried over from the demise of both companies.

A two-wave invasion would've had great surprise factor.

[Loose Cannon]

Yeah the DDP thing was odd. They really tried to reinvent the wheel with him, but they didn't need to. You didn't need Sara in the angle. That was such a waste. The reveal was cool because masked men reveals are always cool (IT WAS ME AUSTIN, IT WAS ME ALL ALONG), but the angle was horrible. Plus i hated him with short hair

[Bad News Gertner]

It could have been done a lot better, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the hell out of it. The InVasion PPV is one of my favourite ppv ever

[Danny Electric]

I remember being sat in the school library with XL and reading the reviews of Raw and Smackdown the morning after on TPWW and being super excited about what was happening and who would come in.
I liked how they would have random interferences from random people , I enjoyed the angle but looking back at it could of been done much better.

[Gerard]

It was vintage WWF (at the time), take an easy angle that wrote itself and make a total fucking mess of it. Vince had to blow his load right away and go with what he had, instead of playing it smart and waiting until he could get some of the major WCW players under contract.

Total farce and just shows the incompetence of the so called "writers" at work.

[xrodmuc316]

Yeah it was way less than it could have been.

I get Vince not wanting to pick up all the big money contracts, and I get the guys who didn't want to take the buyout from Time Warner, but man that Invasion Angle would have been way better with all the guys that came after.

Flair
Goldberg
Mysterio
Hogan
Nash
Steiner
Hall
Bischoff

Way later Sting

It's why Austin and Angle had to join the Alliance.

ECW made it a little more interesting cause it introduced RVD and Dreamer, but the rest was just more WWE guys changing sides.

[Simple Fan]

Was actually when I started watching WWF as we'd watched WCW up to its closing. I get them not bringing the big names over as it would have detracted from their own guys who they were introducing to a new audience. A second wave would have really been really cool though.

[RP]

I'm curious to know what you guys think about the Invasion angle from March 2001-November looking back at it today? I remember back when i was living through it, I hated it just like most other fans. It had some shining moments like the ECW turn, but overall I thought it could of been done much better. And I think a lot of us had the same views.

Looking back at it today though and comparing it to today's product, it really wasn't bad at all. I'd take the Invasion as a whole over anything of the last 10 years to be honest. We got some amazing matches and tons of interesting characters. The roster was ridiculous.

People, including myself, were always pissed that guys like Nash, Hall, Hogan, Goldberg, Flair etc.. weren't involved during that time and we'd later learn they had contracts that basically paid them more to sit at home. But I'd almost argue would they of made the product worse? I look at 2002-2003 when they were added to the WWE Roster and i didn't enjoy the product as much.


So what are your thoughts? does 2001 still suck in your mind or have you come to appreciate it more?


it sucks that those guys had those contracts, but to be honest... Invasion wasnt going anywhere. Vince already announced on TV that he bought the company. Any Invasion storyline was killed right there, And Vince apparently did not realize that.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Some of the matches may have been executed well (Austin vs. Angle from SummerSlam comes to mind), but when your emotional stakes are all warped, it takes away from them. More goes into the match than just the moves. There's the psychology in the ring and the psychology out of it too.

At the time, I had no sentimental attachment to WCW, but it felt...weird. I could tell they weren't doing them justice, and I wasn't stimulated by many of the acts. People liked Van Dam, and I remember being into Rhyno and enjoying Kanyon. I thought the forced heel status of The Alliance made things a bit bullshit, especially since they barely got anything over the WWF. Shane, Booker T and DDP would have made much better babyfaces. Vince and Angle being in that role felt weird. The Undertaker was turgid. Austin was performing great, but it felt like he lost his "special" as a heel. All the heels were chickenshit, save for RVD and Rhyno, and shock, surprise -- they got over.

Personally, I don't think they had the talent for the angle. Austin should have turned babyface on the Raw after Mania, when you knew it was not a good idea (you were losing The Rock and knew you weren't turning Triple H -- who sucks as a face anyway). "You dumb son of a bitch" and a Stunner in the opening segment after Vince gloats about getting Austin on side. Slowly introduce the talent you want to bring in, and phase out some of the mid-card acts you were kind of burning through, and elevate some of your mid-card talent that your audience had an affinity for.

Shane had introduced the idea of owning WCW by WrestleMania X-7, so the one angle I would consider doing is bringing in Booker T with the Big Gold Belt, given that he had it, so why wouldn't he flaunt it. I think he would have been a good ally for Shane to go against Vince & Triple H at SummerSlam, or something. I'd have had Austin hold the WWF Title for most of the year, maybe give a hypothetically healthy Benoit a run at SummerSlam, but get it back onto Austin in time to lose it to Rob Van Dam at Mania X-8. The Big Gold Belt could be used -- and I know people hate the two World Title thing -- as a device to keep Triple H satisfied and busy. He could win it from Booker after several months, then drop it to Benoit at WrestleMania in Toronto, before you build to a unification match at SummerSlam or something. You were also getting some talented high-flyers in (Shane Helms and Billy Kidman, mainly), so I wouldn't have been opposed to Helms bringing in the Cruiserweight Title too, Shane McMahon sanctioning that, and then doing Helms vs. X-Pac and Jerry Lynn vs. Tajiri at some point and having a "cold war" between weight-class champions before that also gets resolved.

But you don't have the heavyweight players, so I don't think a major invasion angle was a good idea.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Hogan is Hogan and his matches will always bring it.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Mr. Nerfect]

The atmosphere, perhaps?

[Anybody Thrilla]

I thought he specifically was talking about match quality?

[Loose Cannon]

of course the atmosphere lol. they (his matches) will always draw because it's Hogan

[Mr. Nerfect]

I do wonder if he’s jeopardized that for himself now. Well, hopefully his in-ring career is over.

[Tom Guycott]

Great idea but really bad


Like Sixx said...Taker/DDP...so much fail. I remember how awful Booker T vs Buff Bagwell was and the announce team...just bad.

Wonder how much differently this whole thing would have been if the original Booker T. vs Lance Storm match were to have kicked off WCW instead. It likely would have ended up as a failed experiment, but at least the beginning would have set a better tone. Could have totally set up Lance and let him carry over his Canadian Patriot gimmick as the new WCW champion.

[Rammsteinmad]

I was 14 when it happened, so I enjoyed it. Yeah, it could have been tonnes better, but from a storyline/wrestling perspective, there was still lots of good stuff there.

Also, the Survivor Series Winner Take All match is awesome! I know it only had two non-WWE people in it, but still, the match itself is still incredible and really well played out.

[Loose Cannon]

Wonder how much differently this whole thing would have been if the original Booker T. vs Lance Storm match were to have kicked off WCW instead. It likely would have ended up as a failed experiment, but at least the beginning would have set a better tone. Could have totally set up Lance and let him carry over his Canadian Patriot gimmick as the new WCW champion.

i never heard this. so they were suppossed to go Booker vs Storm instead of Booker/Steiner?

[Evil Vito]

The original script for Vince vs. Shane at WM17 called for the WCW guys to make their debut by flooding the ring to beat the shit out of Vince. Shawn Stasiak spilled the beans about WCW doing a run-in during the match in an interview before the show, leading to the whole thing getting scrapped and the WCW guys just watching from the balcony.

Shawn Stasiak ruins everything.

[Loose Cannon]

what, really? that would of been amazing. fucking Stasiak

[Bad News Gertner]

Totally redeemed himself with Planet Stasiak.

Love that gimmick so much.

[Evil Vito]

what, really? that would of been amazing. fucking Stasiak

Yup. Poor Mike Sanders was among the contingent there and he never got to make his debut.

https://wcwworldwide.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/stasiak004.jpg

[Tom Guycott]

i never heard this. so they were suppossed to go Booker vs Storm instead of Booker/Steiner?

Booker/Storm was supposedly initially figured at the "WCW relaunch" at the end of that one RAW instead of the shitty mach between Booker and Buff Bagwell we got instead. Supposedly because of the pop Bagwell would get/did get when Vince name dropped him in the first place.

Got the whole thing off on the wrong foot for the ensuing Invasion angle. About the only redeemable part was Buff getting thrown out the building at the end, as it made sense character wise, but the match itself was strike one at the top of the first.

Could have changed some trajectories. Namely, Lance Storm being relegated to tag team partner extrodinare and eventual dancing comedy jobber, and also possibly having people wanting to see more of how the company would handle WCW going foward instead of the "ugh, nevermind on this idea" feeling most folks got left with after said match.

[hb2k]

God, I have such a love/hate issue with the Invasion angle.

I loved the potential of it. I love the individual moments, which were too few, that captured the image we all had in our minds for years about what it could be. ECW appearing and Heyman leading the charge. Booker showing up to attack the WWF champion. O'Haire and Palumbo getting murdered in MSG. Blassie's speech with Austin hearing it and turning babyface by killing everyone.

But they were all surrounded with at least five things that would make you think, "They sure are blowing this angle". DDP as the stalker and getting owned. Stephanie as ECW owner and McMahons taking the forefront. Bagwell and Booker thrown out live on Raw which, match aside, was one of the absolute worst ideas on paper that you could imagine, and really exposed just how little they really knew about how their audience viewed things. Austin double-downing as a heel. The WCW guys being slaughtered regularly. The brand identity dropped and replaced by the ultimate in WWE homogenised terminology, "The Alliance". You have WWF Vs. WCW Vs. ECW as your storyline, and you're going to call them the Alliance instead.

The truth is, it was a disaster, and it came to such an underwhelming end with so many dropped balls that it's pretty pathetic for a company of that size. The fact that the best thing about the entire situation was the surprise rise to prominence of Rob Van Dam, which they also totally squandered, speaks volumes.

That said, I've always held the belief that this thing was doomed to fail. People had visions and expectations that the WWF wasn't going to match, and the WWF was trying to think "brand" in the early stages instead of "angle", which led to them doing things that made no sense if it was actually going to be just an angle, which is what it ended up being. A five month shitshow, rather than the biggest angle in history.

[LibSuperstar]

Bagwell and Storm (IIRC) recently said on podcasts that the RAW/Nitro broadcast should've been held in Atlanta, which would've made sense.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think the keyword that Liam mentioned up there was "angle." It probably should have been presented as more of an angle and less as an organization ready to step-up to the WWF, when the best wrestler they had was Lance Storm and the biggest star they had was DDP, who I don't think was even originally connected with WCW when he showed up and became The Undertaker's bitch.