What does everybody want?

[Swiss Ultimate]

This thread is unfortunately not about Al Snow.
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I'm just trying to figure out what is going on with the WWE right now. It seems like a lot of live audiences completely shit on wrestlers the WWE is pushing. Here are my questions:

Are the majority of live audiences shitting on the product or is it just a select few?

Are the wrestlers being pushed big money makers for the company?

Does the average viewer enjoy Roman Reigns?

What direction would you personally like to see the company go in? Which wrestlers do you want to see receive pushes?

What does everybody need?

[Evil Vito]

HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!

*goes back and actually reads the first line*

https://s22.postimg.cc/wyft5eksx/3508_-_saturday_night_s_main_event_suit_vince_mcmahon_wwe.png

[Bad News Gertner]

Roman Reigns surpassed Cena in merch for the #1 spot.

The average fan cares about Roman Reigns. It's the 30 year old neck beards in the audience thinking if they boo loud enough that Vince will surely listen to them

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah... I wonder how much better the show would be if the crowd just fucking went along with the damned segments instead of shitting all over everything to get themselves over.

Mind you, the product is kind of shit so I get it. It's the very small amount of fans they still have that are interested in Reigns. Perhaps better direction could give us a "top guy" (even if its Reigns) who has a bigger reach.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

This isn't about Al Snow? I bid you good thread.

[Innovator]

Things on TV to matter and flow from week to week so you feel rewarded when they pay off.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Roman Reigns surpassed Cena in merch for the #1 spot.

The average fan cares about Roman Reigns. It's the 30 year old neck beards in the audience thinking if they boo loud enough that Vince will surely listen to them

He bores me, but a lot of popular wrestlers have as well.

Yeah... I wonder how much better the show would be if the crowd just fucking went along with the damned segments instead of shitting all over everything to get themselves over.

Mind you, the product is kind of shit so I get it. It's the very small amount of fans they still have that are interested in Reigns. Perhaps better direction could give us a "top guy" (even if its Reigns) who has a bigger reach.

It's a minimum of a $40 ticket to get in to see a product you fucking hate.

[Stickman]

I want some slow burn feuds.
I want less commercials mid match.
I want a reason to boo and cheer someone.
I want wreslters with personality.
I want wrestlers to show emotion.
I want everyone to stop acting buddy buddy with each other. Kayfabe is needed.
I want unscripted matches and promos.
I want wrestlers with muscles and a believable look. I don't want to think I could beat up the superstars because they are small and generic looking.

Right now everything is so boring because it's all generic. You can plug and play every wrestler into every fued and match. You coukd put anyone in Roman Reigns' spot and I feel there would be no difference.

I think KO is great because he has charisma, personality, looks like a bully, acts like a bully, and can go in the ring. He makes it seem less like a script and more like a shoot. We need more of that.

[Swiss Ultimate]

I want some slow burn feuds.
I want less commercials mid match.
I want a reason to boo and cheer someone.
I want wreslters with personality.
I want wrestlers to show emotion.
I want everyone to stop acting buddy buddy with each other. Kayfabe is needed.
I want unscripted matches and promos.
I want wrestlers with muscles and a believable look. I don't want to think I could beat up the superstars because they are small and generic looking.

Right now everything is so boring because it's all generic. You can plug and play every wrestler into every fued and match. You coukd put anyone in Roman Reigns' spot and I feel there would be no difference.

I think KO is great because he has charisma, personality, looks like a bully, acts like a bully, and can go in the ring. He makes it seem less like a script and more like a shoot. We need more of that.

KO blocked Melissa Joanhart on Twitter though.

Social media makes wrestlers less special.

[Evil Vito]

Things on TV to matter and flow from week to week so you feel rewarded when they pay off.

This pretty much sums it up. Raw gives you basically no reason to watch. They give you the same fucking matches week after week.

[#1-norm-fan]

Yeah... I wonder how much better the show would be if the crowd just fucking went along with the damned segments instead of shitting all over everything to get themselves over.

Mind you, the product is kind of shit so I get it. It's the very small amount of fans they still have that are interested in Reigns. Perhaps better direction could give us a "top guy" (even if its Reigns) who has a bigger reach.

It's a weird request to want the crowd to "just go along with things" despite not liking them. Though granted, it's weird to pay money to express hatred for the product. I think the show would eventually be better if people just told WWE to fuck off.

The thing is, we see non-smark crowds pretty often. They sit on their hands and sleep through 90% of the show which also sucks. If I'm a home viewer, I think I prefer the smarks shitting on everything to a crowd being dead silent. And those are basically the only two options we have to chose from since the show is insanely bad.

[Innovator]

This pretty much sums it up. Raw gives you basically no reason to watch. They give you the same fucking matches week after week.

It's a special show, but take All In for example. All the small bits on BTE paid off, even Marty snapping Arthur and the other guy's fingers.

[#1-norm-fan]

It's a minimum of a $40 ticket to get in to see a product you fucking hate.

The only thing I can think is it's a camaraderie thing. They're not so much going to enjoy the show, they're going to be around other wrestling fans and be "part of the mob".

[Swiss Ultimate]

I watched the Botchamania for ALL IN. Some of it looked pretty bad. The part with Vampiro losing his shit on a live mic.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Wait...did that happen at ALL IN?

[Fignuts]

No you're thinking of AAAmania

[Fignuts]

I just want them to have sensible, simpler booking like NXT and NJPW.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Things on TV to matter and flow from week to week so you feel rewarded when they pay off.

This is really it.

[#1-norm-fan]

I just want them to have sensible, simpler booking like NXT and NJPW.

So you ARE concerned with story telling in wrestling.

[Anybody Thrilla]

#callback

[Innovator]

Breaking Bad teased a couple of things throughout a season or five, and rewarded you when they finally dropped.

[Fignuts]

So you ARE concerned with story telling in wrestling.

I never said I wasn't. I just don't need it to enjoy watching a match.

[Bad News Gertner]

This is really it.

They don't do angles anymore. When was the last time they did a "cliffhanger" type of angle?

[Anybody Thrilla]

The closest thing going now is the 'Who Attacked Aleister Black?' angle in NXT, but I don't think we're talking about NXT. I'd really have to think about that one on the main roster.

[Anybody Thrilla]

They tried to do it with 'Who Killed Vince McMahon?', but Chris Benoit fucked that one up. Was that the last attempt at an angle? Not even joking, can't remember anything else.

[Anybody Thrilla]

They could have had something when Punk beat Cena at MitB, but they brought him back too soon. They were TRYING something with The Awesome Truth, I think, but I thought that was flat. Nexus flopped due to weirdness...man, I dunno. That's sad.

[#1-norm-fan]

I remember years ago where there was a span of a couple months or so where every Raw would end with an insane cliffhanger ending. I remember the stage collapsing on Vince, JBL driving a car into Cena while he was propped up against another. There were a few more. It seemed like they had a sudden plan to have every Raw end with something crazy and then dropped it when they realized how hard it would be.

[XL]

Roman Reigns surpassed Cena in merch for the #1 spot.

The average fan cares about Roman Reigns. It's the 30 year old neck beards in the audience thinking if they boo loud enough that Vince will surely listen to them

Would this be the case if Cena had been around for the last few months?

[Destor]

There are too many types of fans to make a pleasing product with mass appeal. Wrestling has become compartmentalized niche fandoms.

[Lock Jaw]

I want a realistic, down-to-Earth show...

That's completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots.

[Cool King]

https://s22.postimg.cc/hxpql0df5/ezgif-4-da1dd285b2.gif

[Cool King]

They tried to do it with 'Who Killed Vince McMahon?', but Chris Benoit fucked that one up. Was that the last attempt at an angle? Not even joking, can't remember anything else.

The first thing that came to mind for me was when CM Punk left the WWE with the WWE Championship in 2011.

[Maluco]

Mental gymnastics done to defend Reigns and go against what is being perceived as “cool kids disliking the champ” is really confusing.

He is a shit top guy on top of a shitty product with no stories, surprises, cliffhangers, shocks, scares, nothing.

Reigns is top merch seller because kids eat shit and like it. That’s all they care about nowadays, and use his merch as proof that he is good on some level.

He has terrible attire, music, no personality, very little charisma for a top guy and an irritating move set which he spams constantly. He is arguably the worst top guy they have ever had, but he is the company guy and a safe option so I guess enjoy your merch sales and 2.6 ratings and be done with it

He works hard, but he just doesn’t have what it takes to be a top guy

Wrestling is very simple. He is booed because fans consistently rejected the position he has been put in. It’s not because it’s cool, or because of Daniel Bryan, or anything else. It’s because he isn’t good enough

[Destor]

Maluco summed up my point nicely. He is intellectually aware that reigns in bringing in money. But he isnt able to simply focus on the aspects of the show that are geared for him. He can only see how the parts that arent for him makes him angry.

There is no solution.

[Destor]

There are too many types of fans to make a pleasing product with mass appeal. Wrestling has become compartmentalized niche fandoms.

[Maluco]

Maluco summed up my point nicely. He is intellectually aware that reigns in bringing in money. But he isnt able to simply focus on the aspects of the show that are geared for him. He can only see how the parts that arent for him makes him angry.

There is no solution.

Don’t see it like that at all to be honest. I know what you’re saying. I watched for a long time and it wasn’t that there were things I liked and didn’t, I disliked all of it. The product is poor and catering to kids is the easiest, safest bet. Quality is low across the board in terms of personalities, writing and how coherent the product is. It took me years and years to get to point where I stopped completely. I went through the phases of trying to find stuff “catered to me”

Kids watch power rangers which just repeats the same thing every week, same idea here. Fight, rinse and repeat.

Occam’s Razor. It’s not that complex. Ratings and attendances are down because product is not good enough. There is no effort put into their “universe”, everyone is the same and it sucks.

Sad thing is, higher ups go with what you are saying and that allows them to rest on their laurels and continue putting in no effort to improving things

[Destor]

95lbsRatings are down because tv is dying. Show is very strong compared to everything else on tv, thats why they got those huge contracts from fox and universal. Ratings are down for everything though. NBA NFL the Today Show. Doesnt matter.

Gate is down because cena left (who according to most wrestling fans for all but...3ish? years of his career was the worst thing to ever put boots on)

[Stickman]

As a kid I remembered the gimmicks. All the guys had a personality and a story. For the last 15 years everyone has been bland and interchangeable. Cena caught on with the kids because of charisma and character even though us who knew better hated him. He is still 200x better than Reigns. Reigns does absolutely nothing to stand out. Reigns is a top guy who I will forget in 10 years, I will never forget Mr Perfect, Macho Man, Brutus Beefcake etc because they had a character.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Are the majority of live audiences shitting on the product or is it just a select few?

If they're not actively shitting on them, they are wanting to go entertained and things either barely get there or leave people underwhelmed in the sense that they are either nonplussed or it triggers memories of being more entertained and kind of leaves an itch that they hope to scratch next time. There's a general malaise about things. Whenever someone comes out and says "This is program is crap" people cheer.

Are the wrestlers being pushed big money makers for the company?

No. I mean, not comparatively. No one is a massive draw and while some guys move merch, that's because when people go to these things, they're probably going to buy someone's t-shirt.

Does the average viewer enjoy Roman Reigns?

I can't imagine why they would. He's not very charismatic in the role, looks shit, is often booked like shit, cuts boring/shit promos and his matches are always bogged down by the emotional response to them. He was never embraced as the top guy by the fans like Cena initially was. There's nothing to hook people. The only reason they could possibly like him is despite the crowd reactions.

What direction would you personally like to see the company go in? Which wrestlers do you want to see receive pushes?

I'd like to see them go back to the fundamentals of pro-wrestling. Heat, feuds, psychology, selling, promos, etc. Not "they like to have fun" or "they don't like to have fun," guys having a series of matches for no real reason, choreographed spot-fests, nothing matters, scripts, etc. I'm honestly not sure who I'd like to see pushed right now, because it's all this gentrified mess. There are guys I really love -- AJ, Joe, Bryan, Nakamura, Harper, Cesaro, Cena when he's there -- but I just can't envision what the direction would be now.

If they're getting Rock in, Reigns vs. Rock at Mania is the right direction. For now. But that's very short-term. But everyone else is on their card. How things flesh out underneath that is kind of up in the air.

I do want to see them do Nakamura vs. Bryan at Mania. I think there is a way to return both guys to a hot spot with that. I want to see Cena vs. Joe. I would like to see Luke Harper take out Sheamus to set-up a feud with parnter-avenger Cesaro. But that last one isn't going to change the business. They've got Ronda -- I want them to bring in Shayna to feud with that "fame-hoarding bitch" to set up something between them. It'd be a hot semi-main on the Rock's WrestleMania. I just don't really know how you get anyone into true position in this climate.

What does everybody need?

Head! And a time machine!

[LibSuperstar]

It's a weird request to want the crowd to "just go along with things" despite not liking them. Though granted, it's weird to pay money to express hatred for the product. I think the show would eventually be better if people just told WWE to fuck off.

The thing is, we see non-smark crowds pretty often. They sit on their hands and sleep through 90% of the show which also sucks. If I'm a home viewer, I think I prefer the smarks shitting on everything to a crowd being dead silent. And those are basically the only two options we have to chose from since the show is insanely bad.

Very weird! I think fans keep buying in b/c there are parts they like but what's pushed at the top. You'd think the non-smark crowds would be more vocal about they like.

[Bad News Gertner]

I remember years ago where there was a span of a couple months or so where every Raw would end with an insane cliffhanger ending. I remember the stage collapsing on Vince, JBL driving a car into Cena while he was propped up against another. There were a few more. It seemed like they had a sudden plan to have every Raw end with something crazy and then dropped it when they realized how hard it would be.

Like they really don't do episodic t.v anymore. I could watch Raw next week after not watching for roughly 3 years and not miss a beat because there's no week to week storylines. I read Raw recaps every week and it comes off as stand alone shows.

[#1-norm-fan]

I get the feeling they think what they're doing IS episodic. Like, you have to tune in to see what happens next in the Braun vs Reigns saga. The answer is nothing. But it's like they think "they fight" suffices as story telling.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Like they really don't do episodic t.v anymore. I could watch Raw next week after not watching for roughly 3 years and not miss a beat because there's no week to week storylines. I read Raw recaps every week and it comes off as stand alone shows.

I read the Raw recap this week because I didn't feel like going into the Raw thread. Oh...dear...god.

Everything is just so...broad. There's nothing sharp or jutty or pinpoint about this product. I can't even say it in familiar English terms, haha. It's like if play-fighting was exaggerated to pantomime levels and everyone was an idiot. Whens someone hears queued music play, they'll turn their whole body around, lose their fighting stance, and spread their legs so someone can roll them up.

The recaps actually read like these "and then wrestler (x) cut a promo, while wrestlers (y) stood there and listened to the promo, but then wrestlers (a) came out and beat up wrestlers (y) who let them, then wrestlers (a) were in the back and got arrested for "breaking the law" and wrestlers (a) cracked bad jokes..."

It's fucking gone. I don't know when it happened, but everything's gone. The working element is one of the worst parts of current WWE, and no one really talks about it. They act as if the matches are great, but they're all these illogical trope-filled bore-fests where they give themselves away all the time. If the booking suddenly got good, you'd still have that problem.

[XL]

Very weird! I think fans keep buying in b/c there are parts they like but what's pushed at the top. You'd think the non-smark crowds would be more vocal about they like.

“Smart fans” go for the same reason we keep coming here/keep watching; hope.

What if they don’t go to a show local to them and something big happens? There might only be a slim chance of something big happening, but there’s still a chance.

There’s always the hope that another “CM Punk Pipe Bomb” or “Nexus Attack” might happen at the show that you’re at, even if they are the most recent ones that come to mind for me.

[Bad News Gertner]

Half these angles would get over a shit ton more if the guys could cut better promos, instead of the pre-produce stuff today with no emotion.

Newstead and I were talking about Don Muraco last night on facebook messenger so I went back and watched the Rogers Corner that started their legendary feud. Watch how awesome Muraco is at getting himself over as this loudmouth, obnoxious slob. A simple angle that turns into an amazing one because Muraco believes what he's saying. Listen to that pop after Snuka goes after him. Pure emotion.

fubyaoOOe1A

This is Muraco standing in front of an empty ring with Vince cutting a local promo and it's better than anything on Monday night

6lvxZTy28zQ

[Splaya]

Wrestling in the late 90’s was interesting. There was always something going on. You felt like random people might come down an interrupt a match. Matches went longer than 10 minutes. Even if the product is better, the attention span of wrestling fans can only go so far. There are some days wear I like the pacing of the product today but most days I just want to see the chaos from the 90’s

[XL]

Matches in the late 90s did not go 10 minutes regularly, not on Raw anyway.

[Splaya]

My bad. I meant to put shorter

[BigCrippyZ]

Outside of the fact that they're on the Network instead of cable, at least to me in recent years, most of the Network/PPV events feel and are too much like any other Raw or SD and vice versa. For example, Wrestler A pins Wrestler B in a match on a PPV, and Cole screams about what a big shock or deal it is. However, it doesn't really matter because we just watched the two wrestlers trade wins back and forth in the same fashion on Raw/SD for the last several weeks or months. So in the end, it's all meaningless and nothing really happens, let alone is interesting.

[Fignuts]

The sweet release of death.

[#1-norm-fan]

Half these angles would get over a shit ton more if the guys could cut better promos, instead of the pre-produce stuff today with no emotion.

Newstead and I were talking about Don Muraco last night on facebook messenger so I went back and watched the Rogers Corner that started their legendary feud. Watch how awesome Muraco is at getting himself over as this loudmouth, obnoxious slob. A simple angle that turns into an amazing one because Muraco believes what he's saying. Listen to that pop after Snuka goes after him. Pure emotion.

fubyaoOOe1A

This is Muraco standing in front of an empty ring with Vince cutting a local promo and it's better than anything on Monday night

6lvxZTy28zQ

I've said it before. Scripted promos are one of the biggest culprits of WWE being the drizzling shits now. The wrestlers should have the power to sink or swim. All the writers do is make everyone sound like the same boring clone. Imagine Austin's promo after King of the Ring or Rock's promos being scripted by today's writers. *cringe*

[#1-norm-fan]

Really don't think "Steve Austin says I'm the best and you fans are all trash!" or whatever cliche some overpaid TV writer would have come up with would have been as iconic as what the guy just channeling an over-the-top version of his own unique personality came up with.

[#1-norm-fan]

Hell, imagine a coked up Savage or Hogan or Warrior or a hungover Flair just focusing on reciting some lines from today's writers instead of doing their thing? FUUUUUUCK.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The problem also being instead of an eclectic group of characters a la the circus you have boring straight forward athlete types on strict CrossFit regimes in bed by 9.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And it always seems they are trying to play a character versus that is who they actually are throw scripted promos on top of that and it’s death, at least creatively, to a product.

[Destor]

The lack of cocaine in wrestling has hurt promos more than anyone will ever give it credit for.

[Cool King]

Imagine Austin's promo after King of the Ring or Rock's promos being scripted by today's writers. *cringe*

"Jake Roberts, I've got one thing to say to you and that is get out of my ring!

You talk about a higher power, well, I'm now the higher power and I've just beaten you so badly that you'll be praying for it to never happen again!

You're not what you used to be Jake. I'm the King Of The Ring and you're just a loser, like every other WWF Superstar in the back!

As for tonight's WWF Championship match, I don't care who wins because I'm gonna destroy the champion when the time comes and be your WWF Champion!

Trust me on that!"

[Lock Jaw]

If I ran a rassling fed there would be mandatory cocaine

[Lock Jaw]

Would be random drug checks to make sure that they ARE on drugs

[Destor]

If I ran a rassling fed there would be mandatory cocaine

I voted for the right guy

[Emperor Smeat]

I've said it before. Scripted promos are one of the biggest culprits of WWE being the drizzling shits now. The wrestlers should have the power to sink or swim. All the writers do is make everyone sound like the same boring clone. Imagine Austin's promo after King of the Ring or Rock's promos being scripted by today's writers. *cringe*

Even worse would be today's commentary recapping it. If Creative didn't kill the moment, WWE's commentary afterwards would.

Closet WWE ever got to having another JR & Austin type connection was with Cole and Cena. Problem is Cole comes off a lot as a poor man's JR and it made very little sense when he was a heel commentator.

[Bad News Gertner]

The lack of cocaine in wrestling has hurt promos more than anyone will ever give it credit for.

Haha you're not wrong


Piper during the 80's was definitely on something

[Swiss Ultimate]

I think John Cena will live forever.

[xrodmuc316]

I don't care who WWE pushes, what I want is LOGIC.

Example, Braun and Becky now being heels because WWE said so, is not logical.

Finn Balor putting paint on one night and being the most dominant guy in the company, then not putting the paint on again for another 9 months, that is not logical.

Taking a guy who was an amazing heel, and turning him face on the main roster because he has a great entrance theme so he is obviously a good person, not logical.

Building a woman as an unstoppable warrior for 3 years, just to have her tap out in 5 seconds to put over a woman who they then had lose 2 fucking days later to a former manager that can BARELY wrestler, is not fucking logical.

Having two guys who have walked away from everything including ambulance crashes, lay motionless after 1 spear for 10 minutes while 5 run ins happen, Holy Hell in the Cell is that not logical!

That is what I want.

[Tom Guycott]

There are too many types of fans to make a pleasing product with mass appeal. Wrestling has become compartmentalized niche fandoms.

Some of this could be reconciled if WWE kind of went back to what they used to do to make them successful in the first place. WWE has morphed into this bad attempt at a drama production that just so happens to maybe have matches instead of wrestling matches with drama.

Wrestling has pretty much always operated under "niche fandoms". WWE's success has become one of their biggest hinderances.

[Swiss Ultimate]

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[Innovator]

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[Innovator]

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[Swiss Ultimate]

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Do they have an affiliate program?

[Swiss Ultimate]

Do they have an affiliate program?

They do.

[Innovator]

The cow is from a farm I got 1/4 of a cow from. Delicious. Cheap.

[Swiss Ultimate]

The cow is from a farm I got 1/4 of a cow from. Delicious. Cheap.

SO AWESOME!!!

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[Swiss Ultimate]

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Bastards denied my application.