Did Vince "cool off" wrestling on purpose?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Since the beginning of the Invasion back in '01, wrestling has been on a steady decline in popularity.

You could argue the moment Steve Austin shook Vince's hand at mania, there was no coming back. There was a specific type of integrity about that character that audiences gravitated towards. It was as though they betrayed all the work done to establish one of the most iconic performers in history. It also didn't help that nobody was around to replace that happy, warm, vicarious feeling that Stone Cold gave audiences.

From the stories that I've heard - in fairness - this wasn't a McMahon call. It was all Steve. Though, the boss does have to put the stamp of approval on everything.

Since then, it's all been pretty bad. Even when it was a bit better, it was still on the verge of being pretty paltry. The magic was gone.

I'm not telling you anything you don't know.

However, at some point, did Vince realize this was to his benefit?

Yes, the WWE is to wrestling as Kleenex is to tissue paper (or as "The Dastardly One" is to handsomeness). It has that brand power....but it isn't all that popular. The vast majority of people roll their eyes and see the whole deal as tremendously stupid and trashy.

Of course, wrestling at its most popular (at least in the Northeast) was all about the pageantry and camp. There was always that "silly" element. But there was a certain beauty to it where you could turn your brain off and enjoy it.

That's not really the case anymore. That kitschy element is all but gone--and now it's just crappy, awkward television that makes everyone cringe.

My argument here is that this works to the benefit of Vince--to the point where I'd say it was all by design. Maybe not initially, but I think there was an "ah-ha" moment.

If wrestling was HOT like it was between 1997-2000, there's a further chance for the AEWs of the world to gain traction. We could sit here all day and talk about how shit Noid thinks Orange Cassidy is, but WCW in the early 90s was god awful and eventually found its stride.

And it was through the strength of the WWF that WCW was able to pose that threat. Without that iconic Hulkamania run in the 1980s, nobody really would have cared.

This is already well past TL;DR, but we all talk about how Vince doesn't want stars to be bigger than the brand. But does it go beyond that? Does he want the reach of wrestling to remain insular, so that the WWE remains the only viable brand in North America? Also, there's the fact that ratings don't matter as much as they once did. WWE's business model isn't so much about the product being on fire as it is about various revenue streams making up the difference.

It would add up because whenever the product seems to be heating up, it seems efforts are made to cool it off ASAP.

Anyways, would love to hear your thoughts mofuckaz.

[Big Vic]

No

[Evil Vito]

It does feel like every time they stumble into a hot angle, they almost never capitalize on it. They did it in two straight years in 2010/2011 with the Nexus and CM Punk and I've pretty much lost faith ever since.

Now it feels like more of a matter of when, not if, they'll drive an angle into the ground.

[Jordan]

It's kind of hard to address your question easily. I think ultimately WWE's goal is to stock pile money. To what end? Well I don't think that has ever been definitive. Remembering Vince's out of wrestling business attempts you'd have to think he has deep in his ego the need to be more than wrestling. I can't see him intentionally neutering his own company for any grand scheme though.

[Destor]

No

[Fignuts]

Not directly. As Arn Anderson revealed in an interview, they cool off individual wrestlers because they don't want people to become bigger than WWE the way past stars have.

It makes sense. How much does it cost them to bring in guys like the Rock or Austin for appearances? Why bother creating more money sinks like that when you're already making a profit every year and keeping your investors happy?

If they could make wrestling popular again without creating a huge star I think they would, but I don't think that's really possible. The big breakout star isn't the only factor in boom periods, but it's a necessary one.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Not directly. As Arn Anderson revealed in an interview, they cool off individual wrestlers because they don't want people to become bigger than WWE the way past stars have.

It makes sense. How much does it cost them to bring in guys like the Rock or Austin for appearances? Why bother creating more money sinks like that when you're already making a profit every year and keeping your investors happy?

If they could make wrestling popular again without creating a huge star I think they would, but I don't think that's really possible. The big breakout star isn't the only factor in boom periods, but it's a necessary one.

Yeah, all good points. Maybe it just makes more sense to not have the big star, and if the collateral damage is a product with no traction, the brand is strong enough to survive and even thrive. This, in turn, also stifles the competition because if WWE is the drizzling shits, to most viewers, ALL wrestling is the drizzling shits.

My only argument is one you sort of made, in that preventing anyone from getting too big is purposely hurting the product.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

The thing that doesn’t make sense to me is they’re still heavily reliant on stars. They’re just actively refusing to make new ones. They’ll still trot out Lesnar, Taker, Goldberg, Cena to advertise their “star power.” And it doesn’t seem like they have any plan once those stars of yesterday hang it up for good.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Like I guess I could understand if WWE changed their model to, oh we’re done building stars and we’re just gonna make everyone competitors on equal footing. But they still treat their old stars like stars and they still push them like stars.

[Fignuts]

Again, they're making huge profits every year, and it's not solely because of bringing back old talent. Once those stars are gone, they may not have the slight ratings boosters anymore, but they'll still probably be making a profit, so it's not a big deal.

@Dale, quality of the product doesn't matter as long as they are making money.

I know I sound like a broken record but it's all they care about. The only way things change is if they start consistently losing money.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Nah you don't sound like an open record, I appreciate the perspective.

Just that intentionally not making new stars seems like it equates to intentionally hurting the product. The domino effect is that it hurts the REST of wrestling but not really them since their brand power is so strong.

It's probably far more incidental than my original post. I'm sure Vince isn't sitting there going "how about I write the worst 3 hours to appear on television every single week so that it indirectly hurts my potential competition before it can get off the ground." But it almost seems like it benefits them because nobody else is going to pose any threat to WWE in North America with them killing it dead.

[Fignuts]

Vince doesn’t give 2 shits about the rest of wrestling. Ask the U.K. wrestling scene.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Well, his murderfucking of the territories goes to show how little he cares about other wrestling.

[Gerard]

Vince doesn't do "Wrestling", remember? That's what his dad did, not what he does. So he doesn't have men in underwear pretending to fight each other in a 20 foot ring. :shifty:

[Seanny One Ball]

I honestly think Vince has CTE

[#1-norm-fan]

I don’t think he’s done it intentionally. If he has, like a lot of ex-WWE employees seem to think he has, the logic is fucking stupid.

If you’re capable of making stars, it’s CLEARLY in your best interest to make stars. Stars make you money. Long-term, short-term... it’s just a fact. The example of Hogan jumping ship and leaving WWE in peril for a bit is sound until you realize they righted the ship by... creating new stars.

There’s no good reason not to. So either Vince lost his touch over the last few decades or he isn’t quite the genius we’ve all made him out to be.

[#1-norm-fan]

Or he has CTE.

[Lock Jaw]

If you go to a McDonald's anywhere, you expect to get the same kind of Big Mac.

If you go to a WWE show, Vince wants the consumer to expect to get the same kind of show. They shouldn't overly miss anybody should they disappear, and the overall show should have the same flavour.

[Emperor Smeat]

I'd say no at least up until Chris Benoit's death. After that point, Vince and co. started to have a much bigger hand in wrestling losing its coolness factor.

Before that point, wrestling was already showing signs of cooing off during the late Attitude Era, especially once WCW slid further into irrelevance. Vince and co. made some big blunders afterwards but that was mostly costing them the WCW fans and a bulk of the casuals they brought in.

The bad booking habits picked up during the early Cena era however did a lot of damage to WWE's ability to develop future mega stars afterwards but its not really until Benoit's death where that starts to hit a tipping point.

Benoit's death lead to them becoming a lot more protective than before of the WWE brand name, which led to nobody except Cena being allowed to be bigger than it. Combine that with Vince going right back to the type of wrestling he's always preferred with Cena as his new Hulk Hogan but with worse booking and you get the ideal conditions needed to continuously bleed away both regular and younger viewers. The latter being what should have been the cornerstone for Reigns' era.

[Seanny One Ball]

You actually can't get a double Big Mac here.

So where's the parity there?!!!

[#1-norm-fan]

That analogy seems flawed. If WWE is McDonalds, the Big Mac is the star. WWE needs a Big Mac. If the Big Mac disappeared, McDonalds would scramble to find a new Big Mac. They wouldn’t be like “Okay, let’s try not to make our next burger TOO good.”

[Supreme Olajuwon]

If I had to pick one thing that made WWE into what it is today, it would have to be there decision to become a publicly traded company. Nothing sucks the life out of a product like the requirement to appease shareholders.

[Jordan]

Nah you don't sound like an open record, I appreciate the perspective.

Just that intentionally not making new stars seems like it equates to intentionally hurting the product. The domino effect is that it hurts the REST of wrestling but not really them since their brand power is so strong.

It's probably far more incidental than my original post. I'm sure Vince isn't sitting there going "how about I write the worst 3 hours to appear on television every single week so that it indirectly hurts my potential competition before it can get off the ground." But it almost seems like it benefits them because nobody else is going to pose any threat to WWE in North America with them killing it dead.

Yeah if they are purposefully quelling wrestlers who "might really be getting over" for the reason of not wanting stars so big that they can't control then yeah, the answer to the poll is yes.

[Bad News Gertner]

Naw, it's just his own shit not working and Vince being pigheaded. He'll always go back to what worked in the past. Hence the reliance on nostalgia acts. He did sorta the same thing in 94/95. Look at all the past acts from the 80's he brought in when business dropped : Nikolai Volkoff, King Kong Bundy, Bob Backlund who later was made champion etc.

[Fignuts]

If I had to pick one thing that made WWE into what it is today, it would have to be there decision to become a publicly traded company. Nothing sucks the life out of a product like the requirement to appease shareholders.

Exactly.

See: The gaming industry.

[xrodmuc316]

Not directly. As Arn Anderson revealed in an interview, they cool off individual wrestlers because they don't want people to become bigger than WWE the way past stars have.

It makes sense. How much does it cost them to bring in guys like the Rock or Austin for appearances? Why bother creating more money sinks like that when you're already making a profit every year and keeping your investors happy?

If they could make wrestling popular again without creating a huge star I think they would, but I don't think that's really possible. The big breakout star isn't the only factor in boom periods, but it's a necessary one.

I think that is half of it. The other half is all the bullshit rules WWE has outside of the actual product.

Like him or not now, but there was a time when Braun Strowman was red hot with the crowd. But he had a habit of showing up late to Raw. Late as in around 2pm for an 8pm show instead of 1pm or whatever weird time Vince decided was his edict.

So instead of cashing in on this monster character they built for several months, they have to punish Braun for his tardiness by burying him. Instead of letting the momentum continue, they do just enough to humble or punish him to the point where when they were forced to put the belt on him, it was so beyond striking while the iron was hot that nobody even cares that he is champion.

It is such an odd way to conduct business.

[Emperor Smeat]

If I had to pick one thing that made WWE into what it is today, it would have to be there decision to become a publicly traded company. Nothing sucks the life out of a product like the requirement to appease shareholders.

That has been another major reason behind WWE's issues these days.

Ever since the switch to the PG Era, they have been appeasing advertisers and stockholders a lot more often than before. To be fair a bit, that also has kept them in check from their own stupidity at times like when they initially named a Battle Royal in honor of the Fabulous Moolah.

[Bad News Gertner]

You look at the advertisers they have now and the advertisers they had 15-20 years ago and I totally get it

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

You look at the advertisers they have now and the advertisers they had 15-20 years ago and I totally get it

Yeah, even though more people watched and cared all those years ago, the brand power was nowhere near as strong.

Mind you, I would say that even though WCW was more profitable than WWF for that year and a half, the latter was always the more viable brand.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure dubyah cee dubyah was big in the south and with high school/college kids in the nWo heyday, but if you asked your average non wrestling fan about wrestling, they’d immediately ask about wwf.

[Maluco]

Even during the age of larger than life characters, when he let people speak, the booking had the same sort of traits it has now.

Savage was tripped up by Hogan, Dusty Rhodes was completely misused in mixed tag matches and often left embarrassed, talented big men like Earthquake were completely destroyed by Hogan, with even their finishers being ruined. Guys like Perfect were taken off winning the Rumble at the last minute. Warrior had his title run completely undermined. There was so much more.

He was always like this, very changeable and generally relying on one star and being stop start with everyone else.

The biggest issue today is his micromanagement of every detail so that it all comes off as bland and samesy. It was always during periods where he let talent be more creative, that he got his best results.

[Bad News Gertner]

It was a face territory going back to Bruno's days. Build around a face with a constant flow of heel monster challengers.

Now they build around the brand, which I think is a major problem.

[Bad News Gertner]

I also don't watch anymore and haven't for years so I'm probably wrong.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

They just haven’t found a face that the fans accept. Including Cena. They’re all talented guys they try with but because the branding is so on the nose all the top guys are forced to speak in that buzzword language and the fans have a hard time caring.

[screech]

guys are forced to speak in that buzzword language and the fans have a hard time caring.

This is also a big problem with how the product is presented by commentators. There's no flow to their banter. It's Cole & Saxton yelling "it's BOSS time!" and other dumb shit. It sounds like they're reading cue cards most of the time.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

This is also a big problem with how the product is presented by commentators. There's no flow to their banter. It's Cole & Saxton yelling "it's BOSS time!" and other dumb shit. It sounds like they're reading cue cards most of the time.

Not just that, but mix-matched cue cards that don't fall in place with one another.

[Emperor Smeat]

This is also a big problem with how the product is presented by commentators. There's no flow to their banter. It's Cole & Saxton yelling "it's BOSS time!" and other dumb shit. It sounds like they're reading cue cards most of the time.

Cole becoming the voice of WWE and successor to Jim Ross was such a huge mistake.

Him becoming the template used for all the other lead commentators WWE has had over the years with the exception of Mauro just made WWE commentary worse overall. Mauro's style can be very divisive but at least he sounds a lot more genuine and enthusiastic in the booth.

Worst is Cole has shown he can be a very good commentator when he's not completely micromanaged and/or forced into a stale WWE speak routine but rarely ever gets to show it these days.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I don't necessarily want this to be a "dump on commentary thread."

Maybe we can look at the commentary from a different light. Do we think Vince cares about the commentators telling a story as much as he cares about the buzzwords? Again, it all sounds integral to the branding and shit that sponsors like.

With the current state of WWE with its shareholders, board members, advertisers, and television deals, do they want the television to speak with its given nomenclature?

Or is this just an example of "Vince being Vince?"

I don't know why, but I could see shareholders and advertisers loving shit like "WWE Universe" and "Superstars." Or how they HAVE to call wrestlers by their fucking nicknames that rarely make any sense.

[Jordan]

It was a face territory going back to Bruno's days. Build around a face with a constant flow of heel monster challengers.

Now they build around the brand, which I think is a major problem.

No you are not wrong this is 100% the issue. And with this issue comes the obsession with nostalgia because they can't possibly get programs as hot as they used to be when it was cool.

[Jordan]

They just haven’t found a face that the fans accept. Including Cena. They’re all talented guys they try with but because the branding is so on the nose all the top guys are forced to speak in that buzzword language and the fans have a hard time caring.

It's interesting with Cena. I'll use "we" as a collective unit of online fans. WE did not accept Cena for years, nearly 10 years he was shit on for being a babyface shoved down our throats, constantly winning. But eventually, there was a flash point with his character where WE had to respect him as a real champion in the vein of Bruno. He held the mantel for pro wrestling legit for over a decade. We couldn't deny him of that and started to enjoy his matches more and appreciate his promos. Nobody will ever say he was a great puncher but Cena earned his respect from us.

Yeah though he was a huge part of the system we have not because he is able to operate in top form under the circumstances of Kevin Dunn, Prichard and McMahon. He is the prototype and there will never be another like him. Reigns could not be the prototype, Drew however could possibly be the next version.

Roman is still incredibly valuable and I think his stock in the business would only rise if he ever leaves WWE for AEW.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Cena served his purpose as the guy who carried them towards all those cushy deals. But wrestling continued to fall out of the zeitgeist with him at the helm.

[Gerard]

Vince has aged 10 years in the past 5 or so, he reminds me of Flair, he aged really quick around 2004 onward, started losing his hair etc. Seemed to age really quick after he hit a certain age.

[drave]

If you go to a McDonald's anywhere, you expect to get the same kind of Big Mac.

If you go to a WWE show, Vince wants the consumer to expect to get the same kind of show. They shouldn't overly miss anybody should they disappear, and the overall show should have the same flavour.

That analogy seems flawed. If WWE is McDonalds, the Big Mac is the star. WWE needs a Big Mac. If the Big Mac disappeared, McDonalds would scramble to find a new Big Mac. They wouldn’t be like “Okay, let’s try not to make our next burger TOO good.”




Isn't this how the McRib works though? For the nastiness that is that sandwich, the "limited time McRib" and "Mcrib Is Back!" are hugely successful.


The Rock is like the McRib. Established in the "past" but guaranteed to be a success at any moment he is called on. Thus, growing huge stars is beneficial while active in WWE and years later after they have left.

[drave]

Also, Gertner is right on the money with the public traded company bit.

[Bad News Gertner]

That was Supreme.

[drave]

Also, That was Supreme is right on the money with the public traded company bit.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

IMO Gertner's take about WWE being a publicly-traded company was pretty damned good.

[Emperor Smeat]

Cena served his purpose as the guy who carried them towards all those cushy deals. But wrestling continued to fall out of the zeitgeist with him at the helm.

Cena was pretty much the Pokemon of wrestling in regards to viewers.

Something that was very cool with kids, lost a ton of interest with teenagers/young adults, and back to being cool again with young adults/regular adults.

Main difference between the two, besides Cena not fitting into a Pokeball, was a ton less teenagers/young adults who got bored of him and wrestling came back afterwards.

[Seanny One Ball]

Vince has aged 10 years in the past 5 or so, he reminds me of Flair, he aged really quick around 2004 onward, started losing his hair etc. Seemed to age really quick after he hit a certain age.



Haha...yeah

Vince McMahon is so old his socks have rubbed all the hair follicles off his legs from ankle to knee and now when he sits down and his trousers ride up you can see sunbeams reflected perfectly off his crystalline shins.

[#1-norm-fan]

Isn't this how the McRib works though? For the nastiness that is that sandwich, the "limited time McRib" and "Mcrib Is Back!" are hugely successful.


The Rock is like the McRib. Established in the "past" but guaranteed to be a success at any moment he is called on. Thus, growing huge stars is beneficial while active in WWE and years later after they have left.

Right

The McRib is fucking delicious though

[Droford]

Subway has a McRib type deal now

[#1-norm-fan]

Tell me more

[drave]

5 Dollar footlongs now and again

[Seanny One Ball]

Subway has a McRib type deal now


It has always had that horrible thing