On the Marathon...

[Vastardikai]

This goes back to something Triple H said in the "war" between AEW and NXT: "It's a marathon, not a sprint."

Reason why I mention this is I feel like AEW may have awakened the sleeping giant. And the marathon comment is about to make sense.

They have their top guy that everyone knows is the top guy: Roman Reigns. Dude is the biggest star in not just the WWE but in all of wrestling and it's not even close. But, there are some other pieces of the puzzle falling into place in ways AEW may not expect...

First off, Big E. The dude who for years I expected to be at least the #2 guy. He's there now. And he's always had the kids, but he's getting the adults with a new found intensity.

Secondly, there's Damien Priest. WWE has spent the better part of this year building this guy, and it's already paying off. He is a bit long in the tooth, but he's the star that folks were hoping for to pick up where Rey Mysterio left off. They have protected better than almost anyone else, and made him feel like a big deal.

Third is Bianca Belair. This is just the continuation of something Triple H discovered with Bayley that Vince is finally catching on with: they have never had a star to attract young girls. In fact, wrestling itself never went after that demographic. They were forgotten about until they hit 15, then here! Fabulous Ones! Rock n Roll Express! Now they have a strong, confident female character that little girls can look up to and say "I want to be like her!" like young boys had with Hulk Hogan and later John Cena.

Then there is the legacy of the career of Great Khali. He had the combined workrates of later day Andre the Giant and Hulk Hogan, but he also had the combined appeal. WWE became big in India in a way TNA never could with Ring Ka King. And the Indian fans have their favorite wrestler right now: Roman Reigns.

Finally, the female fans: WWE has strong female characters that are consistently featured in ways AEW doesn't. As in, they have strong female characters that are consistently featured. Another thing AEW doesn't really feature consistently and strongly are the so called "Alpha Males." In AEW, they are used as jobbers to folks who look like the average person here. In WWE, they are used like stars. Drew McIntyre looks like he stepped off the cover of a Lady-Porn trash novel. He could step onto the set of a Soap Opera and wouldn't look out of place. Women want them, and men want to be them. And that leads me to Meisha Tate. A female MMA fighter. She's around dudes who kick people's asses for a living. Her favorite wrestler is Roman Reigns. Because he looks and carries himself like the manliest man to ever be a man.

I guess what I'm saying is this: There's a LOT more casuals than there are hardcore fans. And if WWE starts to fire on all cylinders, that will make this whole rivalry seem ridiculous. Smackdown got a higher number of viewers in Rampage's all important Demo than Rampage got total viewers. A fully motivated WWE will destroy AEW, and they won't need white dudes with black t-shirts and questionable hygiene to do it. They'll do it with women wanting to be in the presence of Roman Reigns and Drew McIntyre, Parents who take their kids to see Big E and Bianca Belair, etc.

[Destor]

i disagree with a tons of your reasoning but your central point i do agree with. theres only about 1 million hardcore wrestling fans and the product that courts the largest audience on non fans will dominate

[Destor]

and the reason why that will always be true is really very basic: the only way to make new hardcore fans is to convert nonfans

[Destor]

unless a promotion begins to reach nonfans theyll always be placating to former wwf audiences and that, in the eyes of their very audience on a subconscious level, will make them an "alternative" and not the destination

[Destor]

wcw at its peak was excellent at courting nonfans. varied success but there was an awareness that they had to pursue out to bring in. aew, tna, insert 3 letters here theyre all seeking to pull from the wwfs audience. thats a fixed pie. you can only ever hope to at best match their audience size. they can NEVER surpass it. its a fools effort.

[Destor]

theyre playing for a draw not to win.

[Bad News Gertner]

Yes to all of that

[Vastardikai]

wcw at its peak was excellent at courting nonfans. varied success but there was an awareness that they had to pursue out to bring in. aew, tna, insert 3 letters here theyre all seeking to pull from the wwfs audience. thats a fixed pie. you can only ever hope to at best match their audience size. they can NEVER surpass it. its a fools effort.

In essence, every promotion since WCW folded has been fighting the wrong battle. That is an observation I was definitely missing. Thank you.

[Destor]

its worth noting that what killed the territories was vinces efforts with the MTV audience as much anything.

the impact of rock n wrestling is nearly completely forgotten but even beyond that he's always had an eye for using popular culture to raise the value of his own product and its exactly for that effort that wrestling has ever existed in the popular culture in any meaningful way, at least on a national scale.

i could write for days on how bad his actions were to the industry for the prosperity on the individual workers but whats done is done and the world we live in is the world that he molded and it cant be undone. any promotion that actually wants to be a contender for the top spot is going to have to live in that world or be so visionary that it changes the industry in a radical way like vince did himself.

[slik]

There are no casual fans in 2021.

There haven't been casual fans since like 2002.

[weather vane]

Deadly.

[xrodmuc316]

The sprint part of that analogy was absolutely right. AEW completely failed at taking advantage of the great hype they had as a new company. They just did not capitalize, and should have been forgotten.

Then they started righting the ship and got some buzz with special episodes and Sting, and they got a 2nd chance which many promotions never got. They again completely botched any chance they had to capitalize and under delivered so badly at whatever PPV the sparklers happened at.

That really felt like it, so much so that the next few months were so inconsequential and the build for Double or Nothing felt like nothing more than a B level WWE PPV. I said it at the time, it had no shine,.ni great expectations, and no real hook (not that Hook), and then proceeded to hit a Grand Slam, just an incredible show, the best they put on in 2+ years as a company.

They essentially did what WWE does, they showed when necessary they can really hit on all cylinders. Unlike WWE, they really followed it up and were putting on solid shows for the most part.

Then of course, they had the big signings, a new show, and more special episodes that felt important. But now, they are once again botching the chance to keep the audience that they gained with all the big shows and new debuts.

Wrestling fans like us understand that stories reset and they have to present new matchups, but people who tuned in to see what CM Punk was going to do certainty doesnt care to hear him do commentary or wrestle complete unknowns for no stakes.

They are very close to being back to the same ratings they had before all this "industry changing" business they have done the last 6 or so weeks. And then what do they do next time to try and bring fresh eyeballs in again? There arent many more rabbits left they can pull out of their hats. Are they going to be able to create a 4th shot at getting a chance to grow, because that is a big ask.

Impact has been around 20 years, and I would argue that in that 20 years they have had 2 shots only, and failed at both, and never got a 3rd.

[slik]

It's always weird to me people think there is some mass number of people who haven't watched wrestling before that will magically start watching it. "If they saw Drew or Bianca". Like WWE is going to all of sudden change their horrible storytelling or psychotic camera work. It's just like when WWE had their big debut on FOX for SD and there were twitter 'experts' predicting a new boom period, as if the ONLY logical reason wrestling wasn't bigger was because people just hadn't seen it before...

If some superfan has kids they'll prob have their kids watch with them and the kids might get hooked. With all the options for entertainment available today I don't see how else kids would get into wrestling tbh. Seeing a TikTok of Reggie isn't going to make them want to watch 5 hours of WWE tv a week.

[Sepholio]

Now that the whole suspension of disbelief is gone forever the only way wrestling ever has another boom period is if MMA disappears from the face of the Earth. That's it.

MMA, specifically the UFC, is why hardcore combat sports fans who grew up watching and care about wrestling has moved on. Why watch fake fights over fake stakes when you can watch real fights with real stakes? Sure, wrestling has more storylines to it, but MMA has drama between the fighters to an extent; and if you want story telling you have a massive supply of it elsewhere at the tips of your fingers, on demand, 24/7.

It's just a slow march onward to the inevitable death of wrestling at this point. Sure, some competition is good for the companies, but it isn't going to bring in anyone new. And I'm of the opinion that the absolute flood of wrestling content being put out these days is doing far more harm than good. Feel like wrestling would have more draw, more allure I guess, if WWE and AEW both had 1 show per week. Oversaturation is bad in so many ways that it would take a half dozen Noid posts to explain it.

[XL]

It's always weird to me people think there is some mass number of people who haven't watched wrestling before that will magically start watching it. "If they saw Drew or Bianca". Like WWE is going to all of sudden change their horrible storytelling or psychotic camera work. It's just like when WWE had their big debut on FOX for SD and there were twitter 'experts' predicting a new boom period, as if the ONLY logical reason wrestling wasn't bigger was because people just hadn't seen it before...

If some superfan has kids they'll prob have their kids watch with them and the kids might get hooked. With all the options for entertainment available today I don't see how else kids would get into wrestling tbh. Seeing a TikTok of Reggie isn't going to make them want to watch 5 hours of WWE tv a week.

Hey now, don’t forget “wrestling is cyclical”. All they have to do is wait.

[Destor]

Now that the whole suspension of disbelief is gone forever the only way wrestling ever has another boom period is if MMA disappears from the face of the Earth. That's it.

MMA, specifically the UFC, is why hardcore combat sports fans who grew up watching and care about wrestling has moved on. Why watch fake fights over fake stakes when you can watch real fights with real stakes? Sure, wrestling has more storylines to it, but MMA has drama between the fighters to an extent; and if you want story telling you have a massive supply of it elsewhere at the tips of your fingers, on demand, 24/7.

It's just a slow march onward to the inevitable death of wrestling at this point. Sure, some competition is good for the companies, but it isn't going to bring in anyone new. And I'm of the opinion that the absolute flood of wrestling content being put out these days is doing far more harm than good. Feel like wrestling would have more draw, more allure I guess, if WWE and AEW both had 1 show per week. Oversaturation is bad in so many ways that it would take a half dozen Noid posts to explain it.
combat sports arent new. boxing has peaked higher than mma ever has

[Mr. Nerfect]

I wrote a huge piece because I really appreciate this discussion. It was not succinct, and I cannot type it again.

Basically, TL;DR: AEW is counter-culture to WWE’s culture. That’s only going to get you so far. Hardcore fans are obviously obsessed with the content they are getting, and come at it from that sole perspective, and don’t appreciate the numerous stakeholders WWE caters to all over the planet. It’s not just about popping a certain style of fan with something ironic.

WWE can afford to no-sell AEW because AEW continues to sell for WWE. They depend on their biggest stars to come from there. WWE has got a bunch of guys in their 20’s coming through that are set to be VERY impressive.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Hardcore fans make such a big deal about the 18-49 demo. They’re missing the wider appeal the WWE is going for with international markets, women, POC and kids. They miss that there’s a huge difference between the advertising revenue you can generate with a PG show and an explicit one. They’re missing that so much of that 18-49 demo is on streaming now. They love to remind people when AEW’s ratings are so low compared to wrestling of the past (never mind now), but forget it when they think about how advertisers can best reach them.

They miss the difference between 1.1 million, mostly the same fans, watching a show every week versus how many unique viewers WWE possibly gets. I don’t know if they’re getting the same 1.9 million every week. They also love to compare a two-hour Dynamite block that is measured as one slot against three separate slots of Monday Night Raw, removing the context of how well it does in that later position on Mondays away from it. People don’t compare that third hour to Rampage, do they?

[Jordan]

If more people enjoy WWE than the amount of people that enjoy AEW then good for all of those people. Me personally, I can't imagine anything that WWE could do at this point (purposefully) that would bring me back as a regular viewer. I don't even regularly read TV reports or PPV's anymore, it just means nothing to me.

Why does it mean nothing to me? Very little to do with new stars, more to do with the entire product reeking of Nickelodeon and the total resistance to "pro wrestling". WWE has created the "WWE Universe" as a world to exist in but that universe is about as deep as a "flat Earth". There's nothing to it. No respect to the fans or the business itself.

The next time I watch a full episode of WWE will probably be when Vince dies or quits.

But that's just me. If millions of people want to enjoy WWE then great, I hope they enjoy it. AEW is far better though, even at their worst. For example, Revolution Exploding Barbed Wire. A truly embarrassing moment and overall probably AEW's worst PPV, still far better than any WWE PPV I can remember for a very long time. So long that I can't remember.

[Mr. Nerfect]

NXT never needed to treat AEW like a threat. Not really. I got so much shit for saying that. But think about what WWE could have done to try and actually destroy AEW. I thought this may have accidentally been to AEW’s benefit at one point, chasing some major names away. But AEW doesn’t know how to make them appeal to general audiences. They may have general appeal, but they’re appearing on a show that requires its audience to actively enjoy that it’s fake. But then they also sometimes pretend there is drama. It makes zero sense to present television like this.

1.1 million. It’s not a knock on how Bryan and Punk could potentially be. Or seem to be with the audience that is going to scream loudly about the hipster product. But you cannot appeal to an audience that might slowly want to get back into wrestling (which has broken a lot of people’s hearts over the past 20-30 years) with “LOLWrestling!”

[Mr. Nerfect]

Casual fans definitely exist. Wrestling fans who don’t like current wrestling definitely exist. A huge audience is going largely ignored. There are people who will occasionally give this shit a chance, or would if it were actually entertaining and not some arcane lore.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I do not agree that AEW is far better than WWE. Even at their best. They’ve got some great talent. They’ve got some good matches. Some good talkers. But they commit some of the same cardinal sins.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Did you know that Vince McMahon sells one hour versions of Raw and SmackDown to international markets? Some countries actually pay Vince McMahon TWICE for two versions of his product.

The guy is not out of touch in a business sense. Going PG may have pissed off a certain kind of fan, but was a very smart decision that has made Vince McMahon a billionaire.

[Mr. Nerfect]

With the advent of streaming, if you think about it, Bret Hart is theoretically as relevant a star as anyone else today. It isn’t live, but it’s readily accessible content that can be discovered and consumed by people. Many of whom have an easier time accessing Peacock than they would cable television.

The world is changing so much. That 18-49 demo doesn’t mean what people allege it means for the sake of a pro-AEW argument.

Some people look at it from a now, now, now, hyper-competitive wrestling fan perspective. “I want to see what I want NOW! That is what is good.” Vince McMahon has already started marketing Gable Steveson.

[Jordan]

Hardcore fans make such a big deal about the 18-49 demo. They’re missing the wider appeal the WWE is going for with international markets, women, POC and kids. They miss that there’s a huge difference between the advertising revenue you can generate with a PG show and an explicit one. They’re missing that so much of that 18-49 demo is on streaming now. They love to remind people when AEW’s ratings are so low compared to wrestling of the past (never mind now), but forget it when they think about how advertisers can best reach them.

They miss the difference between 1.1 million, mostly the same fans, watching a show every week versus how many unique viewers WWE possibly gets. I don’t know if they’re getting the same 1.9 million every week. They also love to compare a two-hour Dynamite block that is measured as one slot against three separate slots of Monday Night Raw, removing the context of how well it does in that later position on Mondays away from it. People don’t compare that third hour to Rampage, do they?

I agree with you it's noticeable that WWE has a strong push for the next wave of talents and are very focused on getting a strong connection with black audiences in particular, which is great. They have a bunch of great talent coming up, and you'd think by five years from now they could be on the verge of something really cool if the booking is good.

The thing with ratings that always gets me with you is this. Let's take that 1.9 million for Raw/WWE. Let's say that is their average. That is near the same numbers TNA used to get, and yet you slam AEW for getting at or below TNA numbers.

It's irrelevant! Irrelevant because in the US, there is a large amount of people who do not use a traditional cable subscription any more. I'm not sure if you have a lot of cord cutting in Australia or not. But in major markets where technology is more forward moving, lot's of people use things like Sling, Youtube TV, Hulu TV etc....

Yes I know those live streams are now apart of Neilson ratings, but the DVR factor is pretty important. Look at the loss of ratings over the years for WWE, but yet they have their strongest TV rights deal ever. Look at AEW, an unproved brand who hovers in the 700k - 1.2mill area weekly. They got an incredible TV deal, the best one for a wrestling company ever that isn't WWE.

The ratings comparison is a sucky argument. You're right, different nights different times different channels different competition. It does show that AEW has a million or so regular viewers and WWE has 2 million or so regular viewers. That's really all.

The 18-49 demo vs overall viewers is an Meltzer thing, nobody would be talking about it if he never brought it up probably. It wouldn't be a thing. AEW is the top show for cable on most Wednesdays and that will be the same when TNT drafts AEW to TBS and launches the NHL.

I'm sure that Turner is paying a lot more for NHL than they are for AEW, that's why NHL has to bump AEW to TBS. I think it sucks, I really like the way AEW fits on TNT, and I'm glad Rampage and the quarterly specials will remain on TNT, so I'm hoping that TBS gets a edgier rebrand with AEW joining.

I think WWE is possibly the one to sweat the next TV Contract negotiations. I don't think they will get such a strong deal this next round, likely from Fox leading to a stronger proposal from USA to get Smackdown back. Maybe they move NXT back to The Network as well.

[Mr. Nerfect]

How do people think AEW is going to age. All those promos with the guys saying “Shit” over and over again is cringe now.

All for 1.1 million fans watching live. Who knows how many millions more rolling their eyes.

And yes, the WWE is obnoxious and juvenile and annoying in their own way too. But they invented being fake sports. And they can always change certain elements and feels to their product (and definitely should).

[Mr. Nerfect]

AEW tries to wow people each week. I get that is commendable to fans. But I notice it even here — “Not much happened this week.” When you set a bar of stimulus high, people notice when you take that stimulation away. Vince McMahon’s product isn’t always stimulating (for me it rarely is), but it’s safe (most of the time). His richness is tied to his stock price. So while they could inflate by generating way more stimulating content, when that level of stimulus runs out, what happens to that stock price.

WWE might get really, really good just before Vince decides to sell, haha.

[Jordan]

Well looking down the line into the future I can see AEW falling the way of WCW. AEW/WCW taking some of the top stars from WWE, gaining size to a major promotion (which has happened). WWE focused on the young talent, development, new stars. I can see that with some of the NXT 2.0 talents.

AEW also needs to be looking for guys like Rex Steiner, because that's good shit. Some of the AEW development talents have me raising an eyebrow.

[Jordan]

Also the best position for AEW in this game is to stay just at the neck of WWE. If they constantly try to be the "bigger more successful" company, then they may fail. But if they just try to exist as a successful company, not to try to be "the company" I think they will have a longer existence.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I agree with you it's noticeable that WWE has a strong push for the next wave of talents and are very focused on getting a strong connection with black audiences in particular, which is great. They have a bunch of great talent coming up, and you'd think by five years from now they could be on the verge of something really cool if the booking is good.

The thing with ratings that always gets me with you is this. Let's take that 1.9 million for Raw/WWE. Let's say that is their average. That is near the same numbers TNA used to get, and yet you slam AEW for getting at or below TNA numbers.

It's irrelevant! Irrelevant because in the US, there is a large amount of people who do not use a traditional cable subscription any more. I'm not sure if you have a lot of cord cutting in Australia or not. But in major markets where technology is more forward moving, lot's of people use things like Sling, Youtube TV, Hulu TV etc....

Yes I know those live streams are now apart of Neilson ratings, but the DVR factor is pretty important. Look at the loss of ratings over the years for WWE, but yet they have their strongest TV rights deal ever. Look at AEW, an unproved brand who hovers in the 700k - 1.2mill area weekly. They got an incredible TV deal, the best one for a wrestling company ever that isn't WWE.

The ratings comparison is a sucky argument. You're right, different nights different times different channels different competition. It does show that AEW has a million or so regular viewers and WWE has 2 million or so regular viewers. That's really all.

The 18-49 demo vs overall viewers is an Meltzer thing, nobody would be talking about it if he never brought it up probably. It wouldn't be a thing. AEW is the top show for cable on most Wednesdays and that will be the same when TNT drafts AEW to TBS and launches the NHL.

I'm sure that Turner is paying a lot more for NHL than they are for AEW, that's why NHL has to bump AEW to TBS. I think it sucks, I really like the way AEW fits on TNT, and I'm glad Rampage and the quarterly specials will remain on TNT, so I'm hoping that TBS gets a edgier rebrand with AEW joining.

I think WWE is possibly the one to sweat the next TV Contract negotiations. I don't think they will get such a strong deal this next round, likely from Fox leading to a stronger proposal from USA to get Smackdown back. Maybe they move NXT back to The Network as well.

Not sure how your argument applies to AEW but not WWE as well. WWE officially uploads content from its live shows onto YouTube almost immediately. Probably a far more effective way to hit the 18-49 demo, especially the lower side, than cable television in 2021.

DVR are possibly the least important numbers to me. Don’t know if that’s just something I’m missing. All it tells me is how many people might want to watch your show later when they have time and can fast forward through the bits they don’t like. Probably not a crash hot thing for advertisers.

Thinks it speaks louder to the pool of casual fans, or lapsed fans trying this shit out again but it not really connecting with them.

Turner is paying way more for hockey. There are a number of reasons. The first is that the weekly demo itself is not as important as people like Meltzer make out. If it were, AEW wouldn’t be bumped. That simple. But there is more to it. It’s the prestige of a franchise and the appeal of its audience to advertisers. The specific demographic number itself is not important. It’s what you can do with it.

It’s also very likely that over the course of a season, the NHL generates way more unique viewers than wrestling. I don’t really know my hockey, but there are people who might watch the Penguins play, because that’s their team, but not give a shit about too many other games. So advertisers can potentially reach more people through NHL. So even if cable was still a good way to reach 18 year olds (it isn’t), what we really need to be doing is looking at how many unique viewers in that demo there are, and how influential they are when it comes to setting trends. You know, to determine their actual worth to a network splitting half the ad revenue they take in with them.

NXT moving back to Peacock wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing at all. Especially if it strengthened the deal with NBC Universal. Eventually, even if cable completely crashes, Raw will likely end up taking hundreds of millions to be on Peacock. That is probably actually the plan. And people will still be like “Ha-ha! WWE isn’t even on proper TV anymore!” while Vince pockets $300 million or whatever.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Well looking down the line into the future I can see AEW falling the way of WCW. AEW/WCW taking some of the top stars from WWE, gaining size to a major promotion (which has happened). WWE focused on the young talent, development, new stars. I can see that with some of the NXT 2.0 talents.

AEW also needs to be looking for guys like Rex Steiner, because that's good shit. Some of the AEW development talents have me raising an eyebrow.

This is a big thing. AEW has taken the WCW approach. Which isn’t bad, if you’ve got unlimited funds. But Eric at least got WCW bigger than the WWF. It all came crashing down and it hurt inside when it became a giant money pit. Shad Khan could actually wear that, but change-making star isn’t likely coming. They will get good talent that wants to say “Shit” on television, but the program itself does not lend itself to massive expansion.

AEW does have some promising young guys. But they also have the PowerPlant as a training facility. And while they do push some young guys (Jungle Boy, Darby Allin), there’s only so high they are going to go in front of that audience.

WWE has got Rex Steiner and Gable Steveson coming through. They’ve also got guys like Austin Theory. The future isn’t dark for them, provided they don’t run people off with terrible booking or their shaky cameras. But what’s the alternative? Terrible booking on another show that is only going to appeal to people who think in terms of booking and not just digesting the story presented.

[Mr. Nerfect]

WWE content could be way better. But there isn’t pressure on them to do that, and they actually could make some pretty huge changes almost instantly. Would totally change the game and leave AEW in the dust. Not really WWE’s prerogative right now. Wrestling fans are way too narrow-minded when they think like that.

[drave]

I don't watch hockey until playoffs. :D


Wings 4 Life

[James Steele]

The concept AEW has to try and overtake WWE is ridiculous. It ain't happening unless AEW is able to stick around for decades and build up. WCW was built off the foundation of JCP/NWA and an entire TV production empire to help it get there and that was only 10 years after the 80s WWF boom.

[M-A-G]

Hey now, don’t forget “wrestling is cyclical”. All they have to do is wait.

I always go back to this phrase whenever I hear about the sad state of shit wrestling is in. I remember it being passed around here in the board's early years when things started to drop off for WWE. It's sure taking its sweet ass time. :lol:

[Bad News Gertner]

its worth noting that what killed the territories was vinces efforts with the MTV audience as much anything.

the impact of rock n wrestling is nearly completely forgotten but even beyond that he's always had an eye for using popular culture to raise the value of his own product and its exactly for that effort that wrestling has ever existed in the popular culture in any meaningful way, at least on a national scale.

i could write for days on how bad his actions were to the industry for the prosperity on the individual workers but whats done is done and the world we live in is the world that he molded and it cant be undone. any promotion that actually wants to be a contender for the top spot is going to have to live in that world or be so visionary that it changes the industry in a radical way like vince did himself.

This is such an interesting insight that I hadn't thought of. It really did force others to "play his game".

[#1-norm-fan]

As long as we can all agree that Vince ultimately fucked up a good thing.

[Bad News Gertner]

If it wasn't Vince someone else would have. Probably Bill Watts. Look at how Pro Wrestling USA and SuperClash turned out. These promoters would have cut each other's throat.

[#1-norm-fan]

I don’t think Vince going national and killing the territories is what actually fucked up the business. Someone else may have handled the situation better in the long run. Or maybe not. We’ll never know. We do know what Vince did though. He built his “sports entertainment” empire at the expense the wrestling business.

No one else may have had the short-term vision to bring it to the highs it’s seen but would they also bring it to the lows? By any metrics that can be compared less people care about wrestling now than maybe ever before. And that happened while Vince was king.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don’t think Vince going national and killing the territories is what actually fucked up the business. Someone else may have handled the situation better in the long run. Or maybe not. We’ll never know. We do know what Vince did though. He built his “sports entertainment” empire at the expense the wrestling business.

No one else may have had the short-term vision to bring it to the highs it’s seen but would they also bring it to the lows? By any metrics that can be compared less people care about wrestling now than maybe ever before. And that happened while Vince was king.

Not as much as Vince, but Bischoff handed Vince a wrestling monopoly on a platter. He wasn’t the only one who helped run WCW into the ground, but he got it healthy again just to make it sick.

But I think the nature of national television, international television and the internet was always going to hurt wrestling per capita because of exposure. You can only see something so many times before it starts to have a dampened impact.

[Destor]

Casual fans definitely exist. Wrestling fans who don’t like current wrestling definitely exist. A huge audience is going largely ignored. There are people who will occasionally give this shit a chance, or would if it were actually entertaining and not some arcane lore.
casuals absolutely exists and the contrary is so absurd it doesnt warrant any effort to explain the notion away.

[Destor]

and more importantly nonfans obviously exist so even if a casual werent a thing its a completely moot topic in of itself

[Destor]

If it wasn't Vince someone else would have. Probably Bill Watts. Look at how Pro Wrestling USA and SuperClash turned out. These promoters would have cut each other's throat.what vince did was a logical lateral move...for a highly educated buisness man. his contemporaries certainly lacked the forsight and acumen to do what he did and any would be rivals with a similar vision had the road block of both not having the necessary knowledge to operate are carny operation or even an entry to it and then the issue is magnified by the fact that no outsider could see the potential in the medium.

vince sat in a position so unique that i think it could have been another century before some had not only the idea but the means to do what he did.

could others have? maybe. but vince was in a miracle position with a miracle idea and while its certainly super cool to shit on him he remains the single most inportant figure im wrestling history and it serves no one to pretend otherwise.

[Destor]

and again i could write fpr days on how his actions traded an industry of middle class jobs into a handful of guys making true wealth; which is to say not everything he did worked out great for everyone but he clearly deserves a huge ammount of credit for what it was he did do.

[Bad News Gertner]

what vince did was a logical lateral move...for a highly educated buisness man. his contemporaries certainly lacked the forsight and acumen to do what he did and any would be rivals with a similar vision had the road block of both not having the necessary knowledge to operate are carny operation or even an entry to it and then the issue is magnified by the fact that no outsider could see the potential in the medium.

vince sat in a position so unique that i think it could have been another century before some had not only the idea but the means to do what he did.

could others have? maybe. but vince was in a miracle position with a miracle idea and while its certainly super cool to shit on him he remains the single most inportant figure im wrestling history and it serves no one to pretend otherwise.


It also helped having that idea in the biggest "attraction" city in the U.S.A in New York.

[Destor]

absolutely valid. it was a perfect storm on a scale so grand youd struggle to call it anyrhing other than destiny

[Destor]

imagine for instance if vince sr had been an nwa affiliate and vince was raised with respect for the institution. would a national conglomerate emerged out of new york? i think possibly no. theres a myriad of subtle details that conspired to allow this powder keg to explode. remove any single aspect and its completely plausible it never happens and certainly plausible its greatly delayed.

[Destor]

its not like this wrestling renaissance was organically occuring globally across all the pockets of wrestling sub cultures. it was one place at one time. even with the blue print its been EXCEEDINGLY difficult to mirror.

[Destor]

whether or not it was a good thing...well thats another topic. same for bischoff and his efforts

[Destor]

my point is its not obvious this was inevitable and its not reasonable to say it was simple.

[xrodmuc316]

NXT never needed to treat AEW like a threat. Not really.

They didn't and that entire narrative came from AEW. They still say that trash. AEW Manufactured that whole gimmick that big bad WWE was trying to hurt them. It goes back all the way to the beginning, and it was a false narrative.

NXT aired on Wednesdays always. Guys like Jericho and Cody were actually on NXT shows that aired Wednesday nights. NXT didn't switch nights to hurt AEW, in fact once the TV deals were signed and they announced Smackdown was going to Friday nights, what did ARE do? They trademarked Tuesday Night Dynamite. The plan was for AEW to try and replace wrestling on Tuesdays in the void Smackdown left.

Now we know that's not what ended up happening, then got a TNT deal for Wednesdays. AEW ending up on Wednesdays is not the same as WWE purposefully trying to hurt them.

They also try to spin it as well NXT only went on TV to hurt Dynamite instead of just staying on the WWE Network. This is another false narrative. NXT got a TV deal because USA replaced 2 hours of Smackdown with 2 hours of NXT for 1/5th of the coat. NXT airs on TV because Vince could make money off it. To believe it the way AEW spins it, Vince can just make any cable network give him money and airtime whenever he wants. That is NOT how it works.

Another big one AEW like a to preach is creative freedom and unscripted promos. Evil WWE makes its wrestlers read scripts, AEW doesn't do that. Except come to find out, they fucking do. Rhodes to the Top blew.That myth completely away showing Cody going over exactly how Ricky Starks needed to deliver his scripted fucking promo. Are we to believe Ricky Starks is the only guy that has to follow a script? Of course not.

I've said it for years, it is all a gimmick. Part of getting that AEW contract is they are contractually obligated to spin the narrative, the facade, that AEW is such a freeing and delightful place to work, and that other place is old and bad. It's why JR once on his podcast slipped up and said he thought Randy Orton was the best wrestler, and since then every time he is on Commentary he HAS to add in that Kenny Omega is the best. Randy Orton being the best can't possibly be true since he works at that old and bad fed.

AEW has done some great things, but there is a reason they lose all the fans they gained with their flashbang moments in relatively quick fashion. It's because they are have some great wrestling moments that occur in a parody wrestling company. The whole wink wink mentality that lends to them all knowingly living this one gimmick that AEW is so much bigger and grander than it actually is, to the point that non die-hard fans see right through that bullshit, and move on after sampling here and there.

Until they stop trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and stop placating to the Marks that are all in on that narrative, they will continue driving fans away. The hardcores at Double or Nothing booed, BOOOOOOOOED, Danielson because he didnt cut a "Fed Bad" promo. One of the most universally loved wrestlers in the world, and they were pissed he didn't follow the prescribed narrative they have all bought into.

It's why they need to do more than just present the gimmick that they are the greatest thing ever, because only the people who want that to be true will ever actually believe it.

[Jordan]

Ricky Starks was getting coached because he was as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs to be cutting that promo, can I get a hell yeah?

Some talents may need more scripted angles, but others don't. Starks was shown during some pretty vulnerable moments on that show. But truth is and I know it hurts, Rhodes to the Top is the best wrestling reality show since Hogan Know's Best, and that's a shoot, Jack.

And brother, let me tell you one more thing Jack. WWE is just like that 800lbs STINKING Giant that once got lifted so high a slammed to the mat. It's old, immobile and LONG DEAD my man, ahahahahahaha!

[xrodmuc316]

Ricky Starks was getting coached because he was as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs to be cutting that promo, can I get a hell yeah?

Some talents may need more scripted angles, but others don't. Starks was shown during some pretty vulnerable moments on that show. But truth is and I know it hurts, Rhodes to the Top is the best wrestling reality show since Hogan Know's Best, and that's a shoot, Jack.

And brother, let me tell you one more thing Jack. WWE is just like that 800lbs STINKING Giant that once got lifted so high a slammed to the mat. It's old, immobile and LONG DEAD my man, ahahahahahaha!

I have no problem with it other than them constantly crowing about how they dont use scripted promos.because they are good, unlike WWE who does and is bad.

If they didn't act like smug assholes Barry Horowitzing themselves on the back constantly for not using scripted promos, I wouldn't care that Ricky Starks had a scripted promo. For me at least, it's that simple. They can either not tell the lie, or they can not expose the lie.

[Destor]

i dont think its reasonable to say they've lied in this instance. you have a guy who's struggling with a promo. you help him by giving him a detailed plan of action in a 1 on 1 setting. this is not the same as having a company wide edict where no one has a voice of their own. this isnt a guy who's begging to speak and being shut out.

i think you're caught up in the letter of the law and youve lost the spirit of it.

[Destor]

scripted promos arent the issue theyre a symptom

[xrodmuc316]

i dont think its reasonable to say they've lied in this instance. you have a guy who's struggling with a promo. you help him by giving him a detailed plan of action in a 1 on 1 setting. this is not the same as having a company wide edict where no one has a voice of their own. this isnt a guy who's begging to speak and being shut out.

i think you're caught up in the letter of the law and youve lost the spirit of it.

Yeah you are mostly right. I don't have a problem with it fundamentally, but when I saw that my reaction was "come on". They are surely the producers of that show, that can't make the final cut after making that a big selling point for so long. My reaction was based off them selling it as something different this whole time.

[Destor]

their propaganda has lacked nuance for sure

[slik]

There will be no new boom period until all wrestling companies and brands embrace wrestlers wearing capes to the ring

#BringBackCapes

[Destor]

#ElGenerico4worldcamp

[Bad News Gertner]

It's time for the Baron Von Raschke comeback we've all been waiting for.

[ron the dial]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBDTkFhVcAEaG50?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Bad News Gertner]

https://townsquare.media/site/397/files/2019/03/Kin-g-Kong-Bundy.jpg?w=1200&h=0&zc=1&s=0&a=t&q=89

[Mr. Nerfect]

They didn't and that entire narrative came from AEW.

This is true.