AEW Rampage 10/15: Bryan Danielson vs Minoro Suzuki

[GD]

https://i.redd.it/jonvz7leolt71.jpg

[Triple A]

Should have 2 threads imo..........

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Oh wow. Major power move by Triple A (the “Tony Kahn” of TPWW) to split these Friday Night Threads up

[Triple A]

Sry for the #tyranny @ Skeletor

[GD]

Such abhorrent abuse of power :nono:

[GD]

Sry for the #tyranny

<3

[Triple A]

Pumped.......

[Triple A]

Themes sound louder tonight... Cool... Might have finally fixed the sound mix for themes after 2 yrs

[GD]

Damn, Tay Conti vs Santana Garrett on mute.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Exacalibur and Taz far and away the best AEW announce team

[Triple A]

Santana Garrett doesn't seem good based on these 3 mins so far... All her stuff seems slow and too premeditated

[Triple A]

Always worried some1 is gonna "tear their ACL and/or MCL" when they do those jumping pump kicks into their opponent's face in the corner...

[Sepholio]

I went to Miami without Jorge Masvidals permission and came out just fine.

[Triple A]

Interested in seeing Lee Moriarty for the first time... heard he's good

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Masvidal has that superstar quality but as a guy who fights at 170 I dunno how it’ll translate to pro wrasslin

[GD]

Ugh! I should probably watch Fish vs Moriarty. Can't deal with Happy Corbin.

[GD]

Fish came across as decent considering his advance age.

[Evil Vito]

Fish vs Moriarty was a real nice, physical match

[Evil Vito]

Danielson vs Suzuki-San, let’s goooo

[GD]

I cannot believe they're doing this garbage (Happy Corbin) to combat Danielson versus Suzuki.

[Evil Vito]

KAZE NI NAREEEEE

[GD]

Damn @ reaction for Bryan Danielson.

[Triple A]

Crowd finally coming to life after being real quiet so far

[Triple A]

This should be sweet.......

[GD]

Crowd is hot for Danielson.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

There is nothing better in pro wrestling today than kick pad assassin Daniel Bryanson

[GD]

Crowd chanting Si :lol:

[GD]

Damn @ forearm strike + selling

[Evil Vito]

That forearm was snug as FUCK! This rules.

[slik]

just got home and turned on YT, about 86k live viewers

[slik]

how long has Bryan/Suzuki been going on

[Evil Vito]

how long has Bryan/Suzuki been going on

About 10 minutes.

[Sepholio]

how long has Bryan/Suzuki been going on

8 or 9 mins so far.

[slik]

Thx @ Vito and Seph

[Sepholio]

They've picked up about 20k viewers since this segment began. Glad people are tuning in because this is the best Suzuki has looked in AEW by a mile.

[Sepholio]

Really hope this doesn't come down to a draw again for Danielsons sake. Let him avenge the beating he took in 2004. Maybe they can have a rubber match one day to settle the score.

[erickman]

yep i am ready for suzuki to enter the impact zone

[Destor]

danielson is wildly over

[slik]

Really enjoying this

[Sepholio]

This is a by God slobberknocker

[GD]

This is beautiful.

[GD]

lmao @ Taz saying dumbass

[Triple A]

Cool @ this match having a lot of time...

[GD]

Fuck yeah! That was a fun match.

[Evil Vito]

Fuck me, what a match.

[Sepholio]

Thats the Suzuki I came to see!

[Sepholio]

Really hope those 2 have a third bout. A lot. They work well together.

[slik]

That was good

[slik]

https://i.postimg.cc/hPf5jFnr/Screenshot-2021-10-15-8-51-11-PM.png

[GD]

Becky Lynch vs Sasha Banks going head-to-head against CM Punk vs Matt Sydal

[Triple A]

What's left in the last half hour of SmackDown that's gonna be going against Rampage?

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Danielson Suzuki ruled so fucking hard

[Supreme Olajuwon]

It’s funny to see Roman and Punk do their best in the worst worked shoot when the real best in the world is putting out 30 minute bangers on the youtubes

[Sepholio]

What's left in the last half hour of SmackDown that's gonna be going against Rampage?

Becky v Sasha and Lesnar/Reigns contract signing to close the show.

[slik]

Becky vs Sasha seems like something that would end in a non-finish since they have a triple threat in a few days

[Triple A]

Becky v Sasha and Lesnar/Reigns contract signing to close the show.

Damn, "pulling out the big guns"

[slik]

Do they have more trons than normal tonight or I am kanefused

[GD]

Punk shunning the long bois.

[slik]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Welcome to the team...<a href="https://twitter.com/theleemoriarty?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@theLeeMoriarty</a> is <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AllElite?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AllElite</a> <a href="https://t.co/qcgHU4uFbb">pic.twitter.com/qcgHU4uFbb</a></p>&mdash; All Elite Wrestling (@AEW) <a href="https://twitter.com/AEW/status/1449193124300050433?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 16, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[slik]

Return of CM Trunks

[Destor]

https://i.postimg.cc/hPf5jFnr/Screenshot-2021-10-15-8-51-11-PM.pngthis is much more meaningful than ratings.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Surely Evan Bourne and CM Punk have faced off before right?

[slik]

Taz/Excalibur a good team together on commentary, prefer them to Jericho yelling and screaming on Rampage

[Evil Vito]

Surely Evan Bourne and CM Punk have faced off before right?

Quick search says they fought on Raw in 2010 for an all-important spot on Raw’s Bragging Rights team.

[slik]

Big fan of the above the ring camera shot, especially on submissions since it gives a different view of the holds

https://i.postimg.cc/qqkgLXJJ/FBy-UEf-IXEAMvj-Ya.jpg

[GD]

Big fan of the above the ring camera shot, especially on submissions since it gives a different view of the holds

https://i.postimg.cc/qqkgLXJJ/FBy-UEf-IXEAMvj-Ya.jpg

horny

[slik]

mwahahaha

[GD]

They literally timed Reigns' entrance with the finish of Punk's match.

[Evil Vito]

That was a good one.

A thing I will say about the win/loss records and stat padding on Dark is that it does help stuff like this here, where Matt Sydal realistically hasn't beaten anyone bigger than Dante Martin in forever, but there's still a sense that he's not just some goober who doesn't matter.

[slik]

who is junior dos santos rasslin

[slik]

Ruby Soho vs Brock in the ratings

[Evil Vito]

:lol: Taz can’t sing for shit

[slik]

Becky vs Sasha seems like something that would end in a non-finish since they have a triple threat in a few days

It turns out it did indeed have a decisive finish

[Triple A]

Chipotle commercial where they use the word "guaced" constantly on AEW shows lately...

[Evil Vito]

Andrade vs PAC part 2 next week :cool:

[slik]

wish Mark Henry would attack Jake Hager and replace him in the match

[slik]

still not sure Rampage is a 'necessary' show

[Triple A]

Cool atmosphere 4 this show

Lambert rules, "heat machine"

[slik]

Junior Dos Santos is 'ok' so far

[Damian Rey 2.0]

Dos Santos could be good. Needs to tighten/clean up his punches and he’ll be fine.

[slik]

Wish Dos Santos would powerbomb Hager thru the announce table

[Triple A]

wonder why the crowd was chanting holy shit... idk what happened

[slik]

Wish Junior Dos Santos would hit a Canadian Destroyer on Jake Hager

[Damian Rey 2.0]

Did Sammy kill himself?

[Lock Jaw]

Gonna start watching this now.... not gonna watch the "Buy-In" kickoff show because having a pre-show for a regular weekly B-Show is dumb, and if it really mattered they would put it on the main show.

[Lock Jaw]

Oh, never mind it isn't up yet, this is last week's show.... not gonna watch it now

[slik]

who is the guy in the white shirt

[Triple A]

Paige VanZant is good @ being a heel... has a lot of "personality"

[Evil Vito]

Dos Santos did a pretty solid job there.

Obviously Danielson/Suzuki was MOTN, just absurd stuff.

[slik]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">did no one else see white shirt guy shooting on Jericho and Jericho trying to tell him to calm down, he pushed him multiple times as the guy was throwing wild elbows <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AEWRampage?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AEWRampage</a></p>&mdash; salsaboiii (@salsaboiii) <a href="https://twitter.com/salsaboiii/status/1449208049781010434?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 16, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[slik]

I feel like, minus Danielson/Suzuki, this was a weird card for TK to hype to hell.

[slik]

My guess for the ratings tonight:

Smackdown - 1.1 - 1.3 million
Rampage - 400k to 600k

[Triple A]

Sounds about right probably... I would say 1 - 1.1 for SD

[slik]

wish tony khan had someone who could 'reign in him'

[Destor]

if a cable show brings in half a network show that says a lot about the network show tbf

[Destor]

still half a mil isnt killing it by any stretch

[Destor]

i still think twitch is the future of wrestling...feel like thats a completely untapped outlet. tna flirted with it but long after they had any momentum

[Mr. Nerfect]

I tried to watch Danielson vs. Suzuki. I get what they were going for. They added color to the exchange. Suzuki popped me (and the obnoxious crowd) when he initially did something. I’ve forgotten what it was after just watching, but there was a great Suzuki moment where he stuck out his tongue. I was ready to go with it then. Before that, my analytic brain doesn’t “get” Suzuki in AEW. They kept hyping him as Danielson’s biggest challenge. The dude has fought Brock Lesnar. Now his biggest opponent is a dude who looks giddy to be there? I hate ragging on Suzuki, but he’s a fish out of water there. He has no menace. He got it back for a second when he liked something Danielson did, but then they did that forearm spot. Danielson just willingly put his head into it and went down like a sack of shit.

Wtf is this?

I appreciate Danielson’s creativity in coming up with “organic” ways to trade strikes and do the tropes. This just sucked though. Watch Brock and Danielson. Brock wants to get out from every kick so he takes each one on a different part of his body. He’s a big dude wriggling about in peril believably. This was just superficial gloss on top of a bad trope.

I had to turn it off. They’re both talented dudes, but this shit sucked. They’re just happy to do whatever they want and try to ply an asterisk onto what they’re automatically to do. Ugh. I saw through the chain wrestling before it because the masks were slipping. It’s by marks for marks. This is not wrestling. And the crowd trying to will it to be the opposite before they even do anything is just icing on the cake. This product sucks.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Ratings are going to bottom out. I got in touch with my “pleb brain” for this. It didn’t make any sense. You have to will this to be good. I guarantee this tanks. They’ve ruined Danielson. Pissed away Suzuki.

By the way, wish I had called this: Had a feeling TK would do another time limit draw. Don’t know the actual outcome (hope it wasn’t a draw actually), but as soon as I saw that counter go up, I assumed it would be a draw. Figured he would do that to keep the match for NJPW. If he didn’t, ha on him subverting, but god damn. Still a pile of shit.

[slik]

i still think twitch is the future of wrestling...feel like thats a completely untapped outlet. tna flirted with it but long after they had any momentum

I think you're on the money, re: twitch

I know when WWE had that brief show on FB it didn't get tons of views NOW but I feel like if they had a live show on FB over-time it would definitely get views if it was something like a RAW or SD

[Destor]

i think facebook has proven to be a poor medium for video in general. its just not what people use it for. twitch though...i think that archetype is the natural evolution of television.

[Destor]

it may not end up being twitch specifically but a twitch like platform...smells like money

[Bad News Gertner]

I think you're on the money, re: twitch

I know when WWE had that brief show on FB it didn't get tons of views NOW but I feel like if they had a live show on FB over-time it would definitely get views if it was something like a RAW or SD

Didn't they have a mixed tag tournament.

[#1-norm-fan]

Yeah. I remember Braun teaming up with Alexa Bliss. It was around the start of WWE trying to make Braun Strowman a fun, likeable baby face but having no concept of the subtleties involved in getting those kinds of characters over.

[slik]

Didn't they have a mixed tag tournament.

yeah

I think maybe Alexa/Braun or Miz/Asuka won but i don't remember at all, the eps were around 20 min each (I think...)

[#1-norm-fan]

That was also when Asuka was still undefeated so they had to either end her streak on Facebook or have her win. I think she won.

[Mr. Nerfect]

it may not end up being twitch specifically but a twitch like platform...smells like money

You’ve been saying this for ages, and I think it just proves more and more true. Someone is going to figure out the recipe. I don’t think it will be Twitch, but something will pop with wrestling in that vein.

[Destor]

Yeah. I remember Braun teaming up with Alexa Bliss. It was around the start of WWE trying to make Braun Strowman a fun, likeable baby face but having no concept of the subtleties involved in getting those kinds of characters over.
im not entirely convinced a fun likable baby is ever gotten over by the office. you cant manufacture what makes those work. at some point we'll have enough failures they wont be able to argue against it...

[Destor]

@noid


i think tv is dead (obviously.) i just cant believe no one is looking into getting in front of the trends. nwa with their youtube show for example. its forward thinking to circumvent tv (not like they could get a deal but thats besides the point.) WWE is a YouTube powerhouse. they clearly see the revenue stream. the workers have made killings on twitch.


idea: wwe should air some house shows on twitch and see what they can drum up with that. no major production efforr. 3 cams. no commentary. keep it low budget. i bet they could drum up the cash to pay for the production crew bare minimum

[ron the dial]

Danielson Suzuki ruled so fucking hard

[fundiddle]

It’s by marks for marks. This is not wrestling. And the crowd trying to will it to be the opposite before they even do anything is just icing on the cake.
i can't stand that every match has to have "this is wrestling," "holy shit," "this is awesome," "fight forever," chants, overzealous fans have been a huge detriment for years now because so much of what we see now is, yes, shit. but this match was not bad, it was what it was in the current climate i guess. i was left wanting more which in itself isn't a bad thing

[xrodmuc316]

Caught some highlights and Jesus, who is letting Bryan take stiff shots to the head like that??? I get he said he wanted freedom, and we all know Tony Khan is just a manchild playing with living toys who isnt protecting them, but fuck man.

This is a dude who had seizures and a brain lesion. His wife, sister in law, step father in law, or ANY of his friends cant tell him to knock that shit off?

Its not entertaining when we all know how bad the consequences for him could be.

[Mr. Nerfect]

@noid


i think tv is dead (obviously.) i just cant believe no one is looking into getting in front of the trends. nwa with their youtube show for example. its forward thinking to circumvent tv (not like they could get a deal but thats besides the point.) WWE is a YouTube powerhouse. they clearly see the revenue stream. the workers have made killings on twitch.


idea: wwe should air some house shows on twitch and see what they can drum up with that. no major production efforr. 3 cams. no commentary. keep it low budget. i bet they could drum up the cash to pay for the production crew bare minimum

:y: House shows are probably more fun too.

[Mr. Nerfect]

SmackDown killed them, by the way. As it should be, frankly.

[GD]

I tried to watch Danielson vs. Suzuki. I get what they were going for. They added color to the exchange. Suzuki popped me (and the obnoxious crowd) when he initially did something. I’ve forgotten what it was after just watching, but there was a great Suzuki moment where he stuck out his tongue. I was ready to go with it then. Before that, my analytic brain doesn’t “get” Suzuki in AEW. They kept hyping him as Danielson’s biggest challenge. The dude has fought Brock Lesnar. Now his biggest opponent is a dude who looks giddy to be there? I hate ragging on Suzuki, but he’s a fish out of water there. He has no menace. He got it back for a second when he liked something Danielson did, but then they did that forearm spot. Danielson just willingly put his head into it and went down like a sack of shit.

Wtf is this?

I appreciate Danielson’s creativity in coming up with “organic” ways to trade strikes and do the tropes. This just sucked though. Watch Brock and Danielson. Brock wants to get out from every kick so he takes each one on a different part of his body. He’s a big dude wriggling about in peril believably. This was just superficial gloss on top of a bad trope.

I had to turn it off. They’re both talented dudes, but this shit sucked. They’re just happy to do whatever they want and try to ply an asterisk onto what they’re automatically to do. Ugh. I saw through the chain wrestling before it because the masks were slipping. It’s by marks for marks. This is not wrestling. And the crowd trying to will it to be the opposite before they even do anything is just icing on the cake. This product sucks.

This is probably the saddest thing I've read in regards to the Suzuki - Danielson match. While Lesnar vs Bryan was superior, it was on a much bigger stage. Also, Suzuki is 53 and Lesnar was 41 at the time. If you had to "turn it off", I don't know what to say. For someone who finds enjoyment in far inferior programs and superstars, I really doubt your sincerity, Mr Nerfect.

[GD]

Caught some highlights and Jesus, who is letting Bryan take stiff shots to the head like that??? I get he said he wanted freedom, and we all know Tony Khan is just a manchild playing with living toys who isnt protecting them, but fuck man.

This is a dude who had seizures and a brain lesion. His wife, sister in law, step father in law, or ANY of his friends cant tell him to knock that shit off?

Its not entertaining when we all know how bad the consequences for him could be.

Ignoring your strange obsession with Tony Khan, Bryan's history with concussions is certainly something to be concerned about. He's not someone to be taken at face value since he's lied about it in the past.

[Destor]

lesnar/danielson was lesnar getting danielson over. lesner, with his immeanse credibility, selling big for danileson is a huge statement.


with Suzuki you need to get suzuki over.



very different needs with very different workers. i dont see the parallel

[Destor]

Ignoring your strange obsession with Tony Khan, Bryan's history with concussions is certainly something to be concerned about. He's not someone to be taken at face value since he's lied about it in the past.
individuals should be solely responsible for their health decisions. he's a grown man.

[Bad News Gertner]

They did the "both guys stand there and take turns punching each other" spot that I HATE

[Destor]

i like it when its established as a pissing contest deep into 30ish min match and not a throwaway spot

[Bad News Gertner]

It also happens WAY too often

[Lock Jaw]

Haven't watched the Bryan/Suzuki fight and probably won't because it wasn't on the main show but..... I think Bryan will have done that spot in all three of his AEW singles matches now....

[Lock Jaw]

While everyone else watching and discussing Dynamite, gonna watch this even though have very little desire to....

[Lock Jaw]

Kicking off with CM Punk and he has misplaced his pants again. Make up your mind, dude

[Lock Jaw]

Bourne with the jobber entrance. Not that there was a question who was gonna win, but even less now....

[Lock Jaw]

Seems a bit "weird" to start a tourney for a number one contender the week right after deciding the number one contender in a ladder match...... like take a break, let it breath...

[Lock Jaw]

Probably Punk's best showing so far going on right now, but...... just end the match already

[Lock Jaw]

If you are gonna give Sydal this much offense and look this good against Punk, they really shouldn't have just given him the jobber entrance for this....

[Lock Jaw]

Sydal really getting it in on Punk... but it isn't really making me root for Punk, but for Sydal the jobber to somehow pull out the upset...

[Triple A]

Should just watch Dynamite instead imo... was a much better show than Rampage this week

[Lock Jaw]

And there we go, Punk wins. Definitely his best showing, but match went on too long and Sydal with too much offense and getting "too close" to winning that you started to root for the guy instead of Punk....

[Lock Jaw]

Should just watch Dynamite instead imo... was a much better show than Rampage this week

Yeah, probably....

[Lock Jaw]

Dark Order intolerable.

[Lock Jaw]

Once again the one who got a jobber entrance in the women's match getting a lot of offense....

[Lock Jaw]

And Ruby Soho "barely" wins vs the jobber

[Lock Jaw]

The Bunny could really use a gimmick/name change.... I like her....

[Lock Jaw]

oh no at Jericho swearing again....

[Triple A]

And Ruby Soho "barely" wins vs the jobber

Bunny isn't considered a jobber tbh...

[GD]

Sydal got his entrance on the Buy-In bruv

[Lock Jaw]

Dan Lambert so good.... haha

[Lock Jaw]

Bunny isn't considered a jobber tbh...

She got the jobber entrance so she was the jobber

[Lock Jaw]

Sydal got his entrance on the Buy-In bruv

Doesn't count for anything then

[Lock Jaw]

Only excuse for Guevara beating Miro is if one of Dan Lambert's stable beats him for the title pretty quick here

[Lock Jaw]

Fans swearing.... smh.... somebody think of the children....

[Lock Jaw]

Something just happened that the cameras missed entirely that fans were chanting holy s*** to.....

[Lock Jaw]

This Jorge dude does not look as good as a lot of the others in this stable... dunno why he is being built as the "final boss" of the stable....

[Lock Jaw]

Where is Santana and Ortiz... are they not also in the Inner Circle still...

[Lock Jaw]

Oh here they come after all the damage has been done... imagining them backstage arguing with the sound tech to play their song for a half second... their facepaint still "bad"

[Lock Jaw]

Overall... I only wanted to watch this show for the main event and it was indeed the best part....

Another average showing from AEW

[Triple A]

This Jorge dude does not look as good as a lot of the others in this stable... dunno why he is being built as the "final boss" of the stable....

He's the biggest UFC star out of them by far

[Lock Jaw]

He looks like a right wanker, though

[Destor]

He looks like a right wanker, thoughim a right wanker. the left just feels weird

[Mr. Nerfect]

They did the "both guys stand there and take turns punching each other" spot that I HATE

100% with you.

i like it when its established as a pissing contest deep into 30ish min match and not a throwaway spot

There are certain people I can buy it from. Happens with too many guys and too many guys that shouldn’t “let” someone beat them up.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Fans swearing.... smh.... somebody think of the children....

People who take Meltzer’s hyper-literal interpretation of ratings and what they mean as gospel really underestimate how much explicit content severely caps your appeal to advertisers. Going PG was one of the smartest moves Vince McMahon ever made. AEW being “edgy” because it thinks it is for big boys leaves so much money on the table.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Only excuse for Guevara beating Miro is if one of Dan Lambert's stable beats him for the title pretty quick here

AEW is very concerned about what internet fans think. They made Miro a joke for the first few months there because “you can’t push WWE guys over homegrown talent.” They are so obsessed with these online tropes that they are pushing Adam Page into the title picture ahead of Danielson and had Guevara beat Miro. This is so they can have the brag of allegedly creating their own stars. Doesn’t matter if the product is genuinely over or not.

[Lock Jaw]

I seriously wonder about Miro....

Like, the company has a thing where they like to let guys "be themselves" and do "their own ideas" without saying no and telling them it was dumb....

So I wonder if Miro's initial goofy videogame gimmick was his idea, just being himself... to which AEW of course didn't say no to even though it was dumb. Then when it failed they drastically pivoted to make him pretty great (before derailing him for Samy), but only after giving him the "freedom" to be "dumb" at the start.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I seriously wonder about Miro....

Like, the company has a thing where they like to let guys "be themselves" and do "their own ideas" without saying no and telling them it was dumb....

So I wonder if Miro's initial goofy videogame gimmick was his idea, just being himself... to which AEW of course didn't say no to even though it was dumb. Then when it failed they drastically pivoted to make him pretty great (before derailing him for Samy), but only after giving him the "freedom" to be "dumb" at the start.

I think you’re probably right. The guy has shown himself to have poor judgement in the past. Cutting his hair when in WWE, for example. Anyone who has spent a minute in entertainment knows you don’t go drastically altering your look for marketing and merchandising reasons. And his tweet with The Undertaker. The WWE tried to hold his hand, but at some point you just know a guy isn’t going to get out of his own way.

The only thing I really want to see him do is bring CJ in for a feud with Cody & Brandi firmly in the mid-card.

After that, send him on excursion. I think he could be great in New Japan with a booker guiding him.

[James Steele]

I watched the Buy-In and Rampage and Dynamite in one sitting last night. Bryan/Suzuki was good, but I'm with Destor that I didn't enjoy the shoe-horned tit-for-tat strike spot. Maybe if it wasn't so long/drawn out. Junior Dos Santos, Hager, etc. need to work on their punches. Looked like shit. They need to get CM Punk in a major story soon. I also wonder what the story is between him switching between trunks and tights.

Great matches. I really don't like Mark Henry's split screen segments. Always come off corny especially when Henry throws it to the ring in his forced announcer voice. I really really like the 1 hour run time of Rampage. Keeps things tight/succinct.

[XL]

(Potentially) Unpopular Opinion

Potentially because I haven’t settled it in my own mind; I’m not sure I’m a big fan of “Strong Style”. Danielson/Suzuki or WALTER/Dragunov literally beating the shit out of each other is the exact opposite of what pro wrestling is supposed to be. The idea is for it to look like it hurts, not go away with a beet red chest and welts all over the body.

[Mr. Nerfect]

(Potentially) Unpopular Opinion

Potentially because I haven’t settled it in my own mind; I’m not sure I’m a big fan of “Strong Style”. Danielson/Suzuki or WALTER/Dragunov literally beating the shit out of each other is the exact opposite of what pro wrestling is supposed to be. The idea is for it to look like it hurts, not go away with a beet red chest and welts all over the body.

Not a bad take. Like anything, it’s how it’s done. WALTER/Dragunov falls more into a modern European style for me. I wouldn’t want to see a whole card of it, but for a main event it was fucking awesome. Danielson/Suzuki was horrendous.

There’s way too much romanticised about puroresu, and people forget the business is basically on its ass there too. A lot of westerners come at it from an otaku point of view and just assume that Japanese wrestling = good.

Remember when Luke Gallows and Albert got really good in Japan because they were in Japan and Japan is awesome? Yeah.

[Mr. Nerfect]

SmackDown: 866k
Rampage: 578k

They dropped the People’s Elbow on AEW Jakked/Metal.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Tony Khan is also acting like a mark about it on Twitter. He’s cheering on people talking about the demos (again, smarten up if you think that advertisers see this as a 1:1 gauge on appeal on cable in 2021), and has accused WWE of being the ones to leak the fast nationals. :lol:

Yep, because you know — the fast nationals don’t exist on their own for a reason. Fuck’s sake.

TK, AEW themselves and that fandom make it REALLY hard to feel sorry for them when they get their ass kicked. All the pebble throwing they’re passing off as nuclear war. This makes them look weak as shit.

They got trounced by 33%. From Fox Sports 1.

[Evil Vito]

Since it was on YouTube, I sent Danielson vs. Suzuki to a friend who fell off of wrestling about 5 years ago. He loved it and it sold him on checking out a future show. :y:

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

578K and one.

[Lock Jaw]

Damn. Imagine the honour of being the ONE in 578K and one.

[Destor]

(Potentially) Unpopular Opinion

Potentially because I haven’t settled it in my own mind; I’m not sure I’m a big fan of “Strong Style”. Danielson/Suzuki or WALTER/Dragunov literally beating the shit out of each other is the exact opposite of what pro wrestling is supposed to be. The idea is for it to look like it hurts, not go away with a beet red chest and welts all over the body.
i love strong style. always have. strong style with king road booking is probably my favorite kind of wrestling. 2nd would be memphis or mid south. there's a wild gap between those two things of course. which to me should note just how varried wrestling can, and use to, be.



its all US indy now. wwe/aew/njpw its all us indy. just with different shades. some lean slightly more into strong style. others slightly more into lucha. but it becomes this amalgamation that isnt consistent to itself. it creates a thematic issue where the entire card should be getting concepts over and tha isnt possible with this structural vomit that is the modern product.



ive been wanting to broach this topic as a deep dive thread but every time i do it almost feels more like a book so i stop lol

[Mr. Nerfect]

i love strong style. always have. strong style with king road booking is probably my favorite kind of wrestling. 2nd would be memphis or mid south. there's a wild gap between those two things of course. which to me should note just how varried wrestling can, and use to, be.



its all US indy now. wwe/aew/njpw its all us indy. just with different shades. some lean slightly more into strong style. others slightly more into lucha. but it becomes this amalgamation that isnt consistent to itself. it creates a thematic issue where the entire card should be getting concepts over and tha isnt possible with this structural vomit that is the modern product.



ive been wanting to broach this topic as a deep dive thread but every time i do it almost feels more like a book so i stop lol

Please do. The internet needs more wrestling discussion like that. :y:

[XL]

SmackDown: 866k
Rampage: 578k

They dropped the People’s Elbow on AEW Jakked/Metal.

Is this overall rating or just the head-to-head half hour?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Is this overall rating or just the head-to-head half hour?

That’s overall. In the head-to-head, SmackDown won by 46%. It got 878k to AEW’s 602k. This also leaves out New York and Chicago for SmackDown, and forgets that SmackDown had a replay right after, which could have been watched by AEW loyalists driven to watching them live (don’t know why they did this other than to further handicap themselves, to be honest).

Rampage only edged out in some demos. In its usual timeslot. On a better channel. With New York and Chicago. Without replays. Demos may have value in the sense if you are doing MASSIVE numbers with young people and an advertiser wants to diversify and take a shot on your program. But the television industry does not work the way Dave Meltzer tries to present it. Advertisers want more information than that, and the way television behaves has changed drastically. It’s not Homer, Marge, Bart and Lisa eating dinner in front of it watching Police Cops anymore. That is literally why the demo was “key,” and Homer Simpson is about 8 years younger than the average AEW fan. Think Power Sauce bars want to market to him? Or is Bonestorm interested when advertisers know Bart is upstairs on his iPad? Or is Malibu Stacy getting a big push when Lisa is on her laptop from 8-11pm on a Friday?

Cable is a ageing medium. Advertisers interested in it are looking at getting the people who are left. It is not trendy anymore. The overall viewership matters. The range of people matter. I get so frustrated at this, because you literally have AEW fans saying 18-49 is the only thing that matters. On cable. In 2021.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Sorry, I get riled up by this stuff, haha. Head-to-head was SmackDown 878k, Rampage 602k.

[weather vane]

Thrillho

[Mr. Nerfect]

Thrillho

I considered that as a username here, but we’ve already got a thrilchuk.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Just on the demos:

If you go anywhere and you ask people why they think they’re important, no one can tell you. No one. They just know that they are and that you’re wrong if you don’t think so. Try and put them into the context of the medium and people lose their minds.

“They just are! Advertisers only care about that! Why does Showbuzz rank like that then, huh?!”

Ask yourself why advertisers might have cared about that a decade ago, two decades ago even, and then think about what has changed in entertainment, media and culture. Think about what stuffy men in suits making business decisions think about wrestling and what they’re going to be impressed by.

The demo talk is by marks for marks.

[weather vane]

I considered that as a username here, but we’ve already got a thrilchuk.

He sounds pretty cool.

[Triple A]

Just on the demos:

If you go anywhere and you ask people why they think they’re important, no one can tell you. No one.

Destor explained it simply like yesterday...

[XL]

Sorry, I get riled up by this stuff, haha. Head-to-head was SmackDown 878k, Rampage 602k.

:lol: I was thinking to myself “he could have stopped after the first line” so thanks for the abridged version.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Destor explained it simply like yesterday...

Destor said that they are a higher spending segment of an audience than over 60’s, right? He then went on to clarify “Well, they used to be.” Destor’s also been the most critical guy of ratings here, pointing out networks have considered flat-out dropping Nielsen.

[GD]

Destor explained it simply like yesterday...

Doesn't WWE justify its position as #1 on Friday nights based on the key demo? If they were to count overall viewership, they'd certainly fall behind.

[Triple A]

young people will always be easier to influence. you dont know what you like until youve lived and taken chances. i dont think thats generational HOWEVER if you convert a customer in their 20s you might be getting 60 years of business. you convert an 80 year old... well its not as lucrative to say the least.

[Mr. Nerfect]

By the way, if you don’t think Dave Meltzer is full of shit on the subject:

https://www.wrestlingforum.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.wrestlingforum.com/attachments/meltzerlol-png.110439/

If AEW were ahead in viewership, he’d be still crowing about that and talking about how demo doesn’t matter because television has changed and AEW is more realistic about how they use their platform. If AEW were ahead in women, but sucked with men, Dave would talk about how important women are to the economy now, and that companies that rely on men aren’t trendy or sexy to advertisers. If it were children, AEW is building future geniuses to earn millions of dollars and be such fans of wrestling they will personally invest in AEW sending into space for alien demographics to enjoy.

[BigCrippyZ]

Anyone who says that is a moron who's never talked to anyone in charge of a network in their life. There's a competitor that theoretically might replace Nielsen at some point because they theoretically might get more accurate ratings measurements, but Nielsen is actually also looking to purchase them.

I've explained this countless times, and your only response has been nonsensical bullshit that you're making up. I literally negotiate these kinds deals for a living for advertisers, and I regularly see the actual numbers and talk with TV execs when I'm negotiating deals with broadcasters for clients, whether I'm representing advertisers or TV production companies.

Especially when you're talking about cable, the 18-49 demo rating is the primary factor advertisers use to determine how much they're willing to pay to advertise during a certain time slot and network. Having high 18-49 viewership can be the difference between an advertiser paying $100k v. $200k or more for a 30 second spot.

The reason for that is multiple, but ultimately it comes down to $ and statistics. A 20-40 year old will typically have more (or at least be more likely to spend much more of their) disposable income on goods/services than someone who is 55+. Statistically, because people ages 55+ are both (1) retired or close to retirement, and (2) usually have adult children in the 18-49 age group who have their own purchasing power, most of them save or invest into their retirement instead of spending their excess disposable income, even though they might actually have more.

Those spending stats are still holding true and have been for decades now. I don't know anyone who actually works in the industry and knows what the hell they're talking about who would say that people under 60 are now spending more disposable income than people ages 18-45. You might have outliers in the occasional quarter as has historically always occured, but t's not happening on anything remotely close to a widespread scale consistently or across the board.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah, and that’s reasonable. But is it true of 47 year olds already converted to wrestling versus...55 year olds converted to wrestling? That sounds like a general statement talking about the long-term potential of getting people young, but that could be even truer about younger demos and still speaks to the importance of people as they age out of the 18-49 if they goal is to milk them for life.

There was also a discussion there about whether young people are still the ones that spend the most money and whether or not culture has changed.

[Triple A]

And whether anyone personally agrees or not, the 18-49 demo is considered the most important to TV execs (because they can typically charge higher ad rates for advertisers wanting to target the age group most important to them) so usually determines whether or not a show is seen as "successful" by them, since it typically translates to more money for the network

[Triple A]

Logical or not, advertisers covet the elusive 18 to 49 demographic. If you are under age 18 or older than 49, you pretty much don't count with many advertisers.

The prime example of this is a comparison between the geriatric-beloved Murder, She Wrote and the younger-skewing Friends. Their runs overlapped a couple of seasons and they had about the same number of viewers. But Friends was able to get three times the money for one of its commercials because of its younger audience.

Advertisers are convinced that older viewers are set in their ways and won't try their new product. Younger viewers, they believe, are more malleable and open to the advertising.

Long, ulcer-churning boardroom discussions take place about that but, right or wrong, the networks brag about scoring in the 18-49 demographic. If your favorite series doesn't do well enough in this demographic, it could be the first nail in the cancellation coffin.

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2009/apr/23/tv-column-not-18-49-age-group-tv-execs-wr-20090423/

[Mr. Nerfect]

Anyone who says that is a moron who's never talked to anyone in charge of a network in their life. There's a competitor that theoretically might replace Nielsen at some point because they theoretically might get more accurate ratings measurements, but Nielsen is actually also looking to purchase them.

I've explained this countless times, and your only response has been nonsensical bullshit that you're making up. I literally negotiate these kinds deals for a living for advertisers, and I regularly see the actual numbers and talk with TV execs when I'm negotiating deals with broadcasters for clients, whether I'm representing advertisers or TV production companies.

Especially when you're talking about cable, the 18-49 demo rating is the primary factor advertisers use to determine how much they're willing to pay to advertise during a certain time slot and network. Having high 18-49 viewership can be the difference between an advertiser paying $100k v. $200k or more for a 30 second spot.

The reason for that is multiple, but ultimately it comes down to $ and statistics. A 20-40 year old will typically have more (or at least be more likely to spend much more of their) disposable income on goods/services than someone who is 55+. Statistically, because people ages 55+ are both (1) retired or close to retirement, and (2) usually have adult children in the 18-49 age group who have their own purchasing power, most of them save or invest into their retirement instead of spending their excess disposable income, even though they might actually have more.

Those spending stats are still holding true and have been for decades now. I don't know anyone who actually works in the industry and knows what the hell they're talking about who would say that people under 60 are now spending more disposable income than people ages 18-45. You might have outliers in the occasional quarter as has historically always occured, but t's not happening on anything remotely close to a widespread scale consistently or across the board.

This is an appeal to authority by someone with no authority. You’ve been clowned on here constantly before. No, you never explain it, let alone countless times. You also run off after calling someone a cocksucker because your knowledge comes from Google. You are not a real lawyer.

If you were, you’d be able to talk with better constructed arguments that aren’t giant shifts of the goalposts and straw-man arguments. You wouldn’t last a minute in law with that sort of unreasonable attitude towards any sort of case. You’d also know “I actually do this” isn’t evidence, nor does it make your claims actually credible.

No one has said over 60’s regularly and routinely spend more income disposably. You’ve actually just made that up to try and have a more coherent and common sensical sounding argument to try and dismiss someone questioning the success of your silly little wrestling promotion.

If 18-49 was the primary factor in deciding advertising revenue, then why has wrestling been historically bad at getting it? Why did Dynamite get bumped off TNT for NHL for hockey, which gets both lower demos and viewership? This ain’t bullshit, son — it’s actual shit happening.

18-49 has been an important gauge, which you actually admit “hypothetically” could be way more specific, but let’s not go into that. But culture and society has changed. Other factors are always going to take precedence, such as the perception of the entity looking to advertise in the advertising world. Doesn’t matter if you get a high demo if you can’t sell ads. People need to want to advertise with you, and the 18-49 demo is NOT always the key to that. You would be blasting Vince if he was ahead in that and Tony was ahead in other areas, and your disingenuous ass knows it.

Never any sources provided. You once asserted that a 0.01 increase in the demo would “exponentially” affect how much ads could be sold by. You’ve dialled that back down to $100k to $200k more. Give me a sec and I can find where you found that 2009 article on Google.

You do this very curious thing where you are so scared of being found out you make such general points that they actually agree with the person you are trying to argue against. Purchasing power has become diversified. Ethnic groups, women, even children take more autonomous approaches to how they spend and invest. You address that Nielsen has been unable to keep up with that demand, then just wave it away with the entity itself looking to buy that information.

That’s like Vince McMahon soaking up indies, dude. It’s not the clever out you think it is.

[Mr. Nerfect]

That’s TL. Sorry, BigCrippyZ doesn’t deserve that much time. The skinny is that purchasing power has diversified. Common sense could tell you that, but anyone with specialized knowledge should be honest about it. If the key demo was all that mattered, the WWE is sterling and AEW wouldn’t have been booted off for the hockey. Advertisers want content they feel comfortable advertising on. Demos CAN help with that, but so does their own preferences and consumer data.

[BigCrippyZ]

:lol: Sources? I am the fucking source you dumb fuck. What would you like me to do, violate my ethical obligations to my clients and share the negotiation communications, drafts, final agreements and confidential info/data and often trade secrets? Yeah, I’m not going to do that because I’m not a moron or a piece of shit.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Some are estimating about 300k for the MyTV viewers were FS1 is blacked out in Chicago and New York. This puts them well over a million against Rampage’s 600k. In their usual time slot. On a way more accessible network.

This is as Tony Khan types things like this: “LET’S GO @AEW FANS, WRESTLERS, STAFF! EVERYONE, LFG #AEW!!!!” because of an alleged 328k-285k lead (if that’s even reliably measured) in an archaic and gentrified demo measurement leaving out NEW YORK and CHICAGO!

These fucking idiots, lol.

[Mr. Nerfect]

:lol: Sources? I am the fucking source you dumb fuck. What would you like me to do, violate my ethical obligations to my clients and share the negotiation communications, drafts, final agreements and confidential info/data and often trade secrets? Yeah, I’m not going to do that because I’m not a moron or a piece of shit.

No one reputable says “I am the source.” You’re leaning of expertise that you actually don’t have. A scientist doesn’t say “I am a scientist, soooo just take my word for it.”

No one’s asking for confidential information, you muppet. I’m asking for a source. You know, peer-reviewed, use for educating people with such high expertise. You’ve threatened to throw them around before if a tiff but are now hiding behind ethics?

Yeah, big no on that, rubber ducky. You’re full of BigCrappyShit.

[Mr. Nerfect]

By the way, you are absolutely a piece of shit. You go after people with insults because they can reasonably see past what you can. Just a general reminder this piece of shit called me a cocksucker because I didn’t think WWE were rushing out the gate to destroy AEW from the start.

He is a fanboy who will misrepresent himself on the internet with Google-level information to validate himself and the content he stooges for. Never take someone’s word that you can just take their word for it. Especially if they claim to be a lawyer on the internet.

[weather vane]

I would guess AEW got bumped for the NHL because that was the only way TNT could secure the deal. TNT is also bumping the NHL to 10pm games at times for Dynamite, pretty wild. Shows how valuable AEW is to TNT. The NHL is very valuable as well, they can do both.

The NHL is growing in the US. I think TNT saw that and made some compromises. AEW is too and at times the NHL will compromise as well. They already have.

[weather vane]

TNT = Turner

[Mr. Nerfect]

I would guess AEW got bumped for the NHL because that was the only way TNT could secure the deal. TNT is also bumping the NHL to 10pm games at times for Dynamite, pretty wild. Shows how valuable AEW is to TNT. The NHL is very valuable as well, they can do both.

The NHL is growing in the US. I think TNT saw that and made some compromises. AEW is too and at times the NHL will compromise as well. They already have.

I was unaware of that. Is that for scheduling reasons to help the hockey though? I know Dynamite is getting hit in the next couple of weeks by going earlier on the West Coast so NHL can go live. The rights fees also give away what each has perceived worth to be. And there are plenty of reasons the NHL is worth that. There’s a reason sweaty wrestling women hate is not.

At the end of the day, even with key demos being a 1:1, which they’re not (which even BigCrippy would have to admit, which is the issue he’s constantly avoiding), AEW would still need to double WWE to be as profitable to TNT with their revenue split. So not sure why all this celebrating until AEW actually makes WarnerMedia as much as WWE generates for NBC Universal/FOX. It’s bullshit posturing.

[Mr. Nerfect]

TNT = Turner

Yeah, I gotcha. I did the same thing anyway, haha.

[weather vane]

I think it’s just people being excited, maybe overly, that the company they like is doing well? That WWE killed something for them over the years and they are excited to get it back? That the ratings thing harkens back to when wrestling was must watch (Monday Night Wars)?

I know it’s not that simple to some, but it is for me.

[weather vane]

My source for that NHL tidbit is Spittin’ Chiclets, a hockey podcast I listen to. One of the guys is on the TNT panel. He said they are getting bumped to the 1000/1030 games for AEW at times.

[BigCrippyZ]

Shocker, the moron who thinks he knows way more than he does because he knows just a little, doesn't know a key detail necessary to analyze something he's already proceeded to analyze. JFC, a perfect example of Dunning-Kruger.

[Destor]

to the idea of *if* 18-49 matters it matters chiefly because the guys paying the bills value it. their position on the topic functions as a fiat currency. same with neilson as a whole. its doesnt represent what the market actually values (noted by the continuous diminished returns from the ad spots from even as recent as 10 years ago.)

to advertisers the metric is clearly paramount because they just dont have an alternative; and thats reflected in NBC walking from neilson only to be followed by neilson rapidly dropping their going rates (if the neilson data was truly valuable the market would have reflected that.) if that moment nielson acknowledged through action that the networks are more valuable to nielson than neilson is to the networks.

neilson is no longer an accurate descriptor of viewer habits. its junk data. you dont learn factual information from neilson data. its not even remotely a scientific analysis. it remains however the industry standard and will continue to dictate market responses in spite of it being total rubbish.

at this time with the near total shift of how households consume media we have virtually no clue who is watching what and its in that end that ratings are completely stupid to discuss. when we 1.1 million watched X understand that its barely more than a guess at this point. the neilson method no longer works. we are free from conventional shackles of the television standard and a ratings system that adhears to it is ludicrous.

what we cant do is discredit entirely that these networks are valuing the data and that it will impact contracts in the future

HOWEVER

this future is likely to be short lived. last month neilson lost its accreditation Due to how inacurate it is and is only being able to used on a case by case basis (something im shocked crippy didnt bring up) AND nbc is organizing a coalition to create a modern (and accurate) system that if successful will completely usurp neilson by giving actual honest data.

[Destor]

tl;dr neilson is fuckin stupid yall

[Bad News Gertner]

Yeah, and that’s reasonable. But is it true of 47 year olds already converted to wrestling versus...55 year olds converted to wrestling? That sounds like a general statement talking about the long-term potential of getting people young, but that could be even truer about younger demos and still speaks to the importance of people as they age out of the 18-49 if they goal is to milk them for life.

There was also a discussion there about whether young people are still the ones that spend the most money and whether or not culture has changed.

WWF used to CRUSH that demo 20-25 years ago, and they only had ads for motor oil, Skittles and JVC Ka Boom boxes. The demos are what they are, but at the end of the day it's wrestling. People still think the wrestling fans are pimplely faced hicks.

[Bad News Gertner]

to the idea of *if* 18-49 matters it matters chiefly because the guys paying the bills value it. their position on the topic functions as a fiat currency. same with neilson as a whole. its doesnt represent what the market actually values (noted by the continuous diminished returns from the ad spots from even as recent as 10 years ago.)

to advertisers the metric is clearly paramount because they just dont have an alternative; and thats reflected in NBC walking from neilson only to be followed by neilson rapidly dropping their going rates (if the neilson data was truly valuable the market would have reflected that.) if that moment nielson acknowledged through action that the networks are more valuable to nielson than neilson is to the networks.

neilson is no longer an accurate descriptor of viewer habits. its junk data. you dont learn factual information from neilson data. its not even remotely a scientific analysis. it remains however the industry standard and will continue to dictate market responses in spite of it being total rubbish.

at this time with the near total shift of how households consume media we have virtually no clue who is watching what and its in that end that ratings are completely stupid to discuss. when we 1.1 million watched X understand that its barely more than a guess at this point. the neilson method no longer works. we are free from conventional shackles of the television standard and a ratings system that adhears to it is ludicrous.

what we cant do is discredit entirely that these networks are valuing the data and that it will impact contracts in the future

HOWEVER

this future is likely to be short lived. last month neilson lost its accreditation Due to how inacurate it is and is only being able to used on a case by case basis (something im shocked crippy didnt bring up) AND nbc is organizing a coalition to create a modern (and accurate) system that if successful will completely usurp neilson by giving actual honest data.

Well said. I have an android box and watch all my shows/ppv on it.

[weather vane]

I watch AEW on streaming sites on my phone a lot of the times. I’m sure a ton of people do. I wish there was a way to track everything somehow. Impossible but yeah..

[Destor]

I watch AEW on streaming sites on my phone a lot of the times. I’m sure a ton of people do. I wish there was a way to track everything somehow. Impossible but yeah..theres some tracking on that but its limited and moreover it can be included in over night data (and that we even use over night data is a joke in of itself because who the fuck watches things when the tv demands in 2021...)

[weather vane]

I don’t watch Dynamite til Thursday mostly. Poker nights Wednesday unfortunately! weather vane loves gambling. Fucking loves it.

[Triple A]

At the end of the day, even with key demos being a 1:1, which they’re not (which even BigCrippy would have to admit, which is the issue he’s constantly avoiding), AEW would still need to double WWE to be as profitable to TNT with their revenue split. So not sure why all this celebrating until AEW actually makes WarnerMedia as much as WWE generates for NBC Universal/FOX. It’s bullshit posturing.

The networks that WWE is on also pay WWE way more money. Idk how the math works out but I wonder now

[weather vane]

Will be interesting when AEW’s TV contract comes up. When is that?

[Triple A]

It was extended until the end of 2023, with an option for Turner for 2024 at a "significantly increased price"

Also idk if they still do ad revenue sharing with the new deal they signed in 2020... that was their deal when they first started but idk if it still is

[weather vane]

They seem to have a good relationship and value each other. Can’t see them going anywhere.

[BigCrippyZ]

It was extended until the end of 2023, with an option for Turner for 2024 at a "significantly increased price"

Also idk if they still do ad revenue sharing with the new deal they signed in 2020... that was their deal when they first started but idk if it still is

IIRC, it’s a guaranteed fee of about $40 million a year plus a smaller % of ad revenues.

[Lock Jaw]

Guys, I just read that the demos of this thread are not doing good. Please liven it up some more.

[Destor]

18-49 males love boobs. get on it lockjaw

[ron the dial]

we need lots more relatable RP anna jay content

[Destor]

he didnt post pics. 3/10

[ron the dial]

better to be on the safe side with RP posting pics in wrestling. it could turn into a black cock debacle real quick.

[DaveWadding]

better to be on the safe side with RP posting pics in wrestling. it could turn into a black cock debacle real quick.

Debcockle

[Mr. Nerfect]

to the idea of *if* 18-49 matters it matters chiefly because the guys paying the bills value it. their position on the topic functions as a fiat currency. same with neilson as a whole. its doesnt represent what the market actually values (noted by the continuous diminished returns from the ad spots from even as recent as 10 years ago.)

to advertisers the metric is clearly paramount because they just dont have an alternative; and thats reflected in NBC walking from neilson only to be followed by neilson rapidly dropping their going rates (if the neilson data was truly valuable the market would have reflected that.) if that moment nielson acknowledged through action that the networks are more valuable to nielson than neilson is to the networks.

neilson is no longer an accurate descriptor of viewer habits. its junk data. you dont learn factual information from neilson data. its not even remotely a scientific analysis. it remains however the industry standard and will continue to dictate market responses in spite of it being total rubbish.

at this time with the near total shift of how households consume media we have virtually no clue who is watching what and its in that end that ratings are completely stupid to discuss. when we 1.1 million watched X understand that its barely more than a guess at this point. the neilson method no longer works. we are free from conventional shackles of the television standard and a ratings system that adhears to it is ludicrous.

what we cant do is discredit entirely that these networks are valuing the data and that it will impact contracts in the future

HOWEVER

this future is likely to be short lived. last month neilson lost its accreditation Due to how inacurate it is and is only being able to used on a case by case basis (something im shocked crippy didnt bring up) AND nbc is organizing a coalition to create a modern (and accurate) system that if successful will completely usurp neilson by giving actual honest data.

Great post. :y:

My stance has been that the ratings matter as much as important decision makers want them to matter. A great rating, as they see it, is going to be used as justification to keep you. A number they don’t value can be used to hang you. It can even be the same number interpreted differently. Is 750k good or bad? Depends on who’s looking at it and how.

Had no clue about NBC developing their own methods.

I’m surprised with so much being digital and the technological advancements that I assume have been in most houses for some time that there isn’t some sort of instant feedback when it comes to viewing habits and the like. I assumed this would be the case when my parents got upgraded to digital cable in, like, 2006 or whenever. I just assumed FOXTEL knew exactly how many people were watching one thing at one time.

Nielsen themselves state a 10% margin of error. That’s fucking huge. Rampage may have gotten 662k this week or 540k. That’s a huge chunk of audience that it just doesn’t know how to count. And what if you just watch wrestling at your parents’ house because you don’t have cable. No sense getting it for wrestling. Or if you watch it with friends? Just a really wonky way to measure viewing habits, as you said.

[Destor]

its reasonable to say that more people watch tv content from non traditional means than traditional who are between 18-49

[Destor]

if it turned out the true neilson margin of error was 50% it wouldnt shock me. we get a new method installed only to find the real winner on friday nights in judge judy reruns

[Destor]

neilson is so inaccurate we cant reasonably say we know anything from an empirical stand point. especially in the "key demo" who are the least likely to be using a neilson friendly viewing habit.

[Destor]

even having a conversation on tuesday about who watched raw this week is insane to me. i could be weeks behind on a show at any given time and be SUPER invested in said show. the new metric should be an aggregate score based on a 30ish day cycle. we just dont consume content like we used to

[Destor]

more over i may watch part through one service and part through another. or in the case of wrestling just consume segments. and i certainly never view a commercial with is a whole other can of worms. the only ad spots that are going to reach me are the in-content-ad-spots. its just a huge mess with a bunch of old guys desperately clinging to the corspe of a long dead model.

[BigCrippyZ]

Great post. :y:

My stance has been that the ratings matter as much as important decision makers want them to matter. A great rating, as they see it, is going to be used as justification to keep you. A number they don’t value can be used to hang you. It can even be the same number interpreted differently. Is 750k good or bad? Depends on who’s looking at it and how.

Had no clue about NBC developing their own methods.

I’m surprised with so much being digital and the technological advancements that I assume have been in most houses for some time that there isn’t some sort of instant feedback when it comes to viewing habits and the like. I assumed this would be the case when my parents got upgraded to digital cable in, like, 2006 or whenever. I just assumed FOXTEL knew exactly how many people were watching one thing at one time.

Nielsen themselves state a 10% margin of error. That’s fucking huge. Rampage may have gotten 662k this week or 540k. That’s a huge chunk of audience that it just doesn’t know how to count. And what if you just watch wrestling at your parents’ house because you don’t have cable. No sense getting it for wrestling. Or if you watch it with friends? Just a really wonky way to measure viewing habits, as you said.

Yeah, but the reality is, every advertiser is still using Nielsen data to determine their ad rates. Every network is still using Nielsen data behind the scenes in everything they do, they're just supplementing it with other data sources, which has also been common for two decades now. I've done three TV deals and two advertiser deals with multiple networks in the last month alone, every network and advertiser was using Nielsen data as their primary source of data to determine the deal structure. I know for a fact that NBC is still using Nielsen data. I'm in the process of doing a deal with them for a new show next year and they're basing almost the entire contract's pay structure on what new shows typically get in ad rates due to, you guessed it, key demo ratings from Nielsen data. The fact is, despite their flaws (no one says they're not flawed, but that's not what were talking about), Nielsen (not unlike WWE when people think of wrestling) is the gold standard and because of their history, finances, and influence, they're not going to go away anytime soon. That's why the ratings and demos matter, because the business and industries say they do.

[Triple A]

neilson is so inaccurate we cant reasonably say we know anything from an empirical stand point. especially in the "key demo" who are the least likely to be using a neilson friendly viewing habit.

Streaming services are included in the Nielsen numbers as far as I know

Streaming viewers could maybe even be more likely to be tracked by them because most streaming services have an option for it in the settings... I use YouTube TV and it's tracked by Nielsen. Had DirecTV Now before and it was also tracked

[Triple A]

The networks that WWE is on also pay WWE way more money. Idk how the math works out but I wonder now

NBC/USA apparently pays $265 million a year for Raw... Turner pays like $60 million for Dynamite and Rampage together... Dynamite creeping up on Raw's 18-49 numbers... One network seems to be getting a much better deal

[weather vane]

They don’t track like the free streaming sites. I use em regularly. So many of them, how could they? I’m sure tons of people my age use em.

[Mr. Nerfect]

NBC/USA apparently pays $265 million a year for Raw... Turner pays like $60 million for Dynamite and Rampage together... Dynamite creeping up on Raw's 18-49 numbers... One network seems to be getting a much better deal

The WWE also has global presence and brand awareness, generates less explicit content (this is huge), has a roster of diverse wrestlers from all over the planet and appeals way more to women and people that might have grandkids. There’s also other delivery mechanisms to keep in mind (may not mean much in the immediate sense for advertisers, but people being aware of brands you’re associating with themselves is relative), and the scope of WWE in general. Then there’s the ad split to keep in mind. And that if AEW loses their 18-49 (known for being frivolous, so if you’re going to just assume they are still primary spenders...), what do they have to fall back on?

I’m sorry, but it’s insane to think AEW is coming anywhere near touching WWE in total value through their advertising appeal.

AEW has got a good chance of renegotiating with a smaller network that uses them to spike their awareness and popularity. Or with Turner if they haven’t crashed and burnt by then. But to think they are a threat to WWE hegemony right now ignores so many other factors.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I’m having trouble embedding tweets from my phone. But here’s Meltzer downplaying the difference between TNT and FS1.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450657276130316292

This links to a clip from April 2019 where Meltzer said “Don’t look at the number on the left, look at the number on the right” and basically shat all over the idea of Raw leaning on the demos.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450693723881418756

The “war” as framed by him (it’s barely a skirmish) is a false narrative. Do not buy into it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The NFL is releasing media about their overall viewership. Someone better tell them how to close ad deals.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBBZLAYUYAAf_bU.jpg:large

[Mr. Nerfect]

It’s almost like entities lead with numbers they want to use to make themselves look good, and ignore numbers that aren’t that impressive when put into context.

[Mr. Nerfect]

An article I found from 2018 that talks what I perceive to be some pretty common sense. I was asking Google if advertisers still care most about the 18-49 demo in 2021. But of course these people are “morons” who don’t have any experience in media:

www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/9/8/17832576/tv-ratings-older-viewers-explained-18-49

Tl;dr — Advertisers and TV networks valued 18-49 because of the reasons Destor has laid out: habits and your time left...alive, quite frankly. Living conditions, societal/cultural changes and economic factors regarding the cable industry and the number of people from each demographic watching live has opened perspectives on this. Stable live viewership has got value to advertisers, regardless of age.

And apparently Netflix doesn’t track age so urgently, because a lot of older consumers foot the bill for younger consumers, and vice versa. These changes in viewing habits could also be reflected in cable. For example, I enjoy watching a show with my dad on cable. I’m not about to get it and have him over for dinner to watch it. I go and visit him since he’s already got it. I am in the 18-49 demo, he is not. It’d be counted as a 50+ viewer, but it is 1:1 in that house. 1:2 when my brother is over and watches too. By the way, my dad is not overly well to do (I’d say we grew up middle-class). He’s got way more disposable income than anybody in my age bracket that I know. That could be a cultural thing as Australians are looking to buy food, pay rent/mortgages, gym memberships, streaming services, balance a social life, etc. But if I were to guess who was going to spend $1000 on some wacky thing for his kitchen, I know who it would be.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

NBC/USA apparently pays $265 million a year for Raw... Turner pays like $60 million for Dynamite and Rampage together... Dynamite creeping up on Raw's 18-49 numbers... One network seems to be getting a much better deal

This is why the idea that AEW isn’t competition or shouldn’t be worried about if you’re WWE is false. Even if they’re not talking viewers away, they’re posting comparable numbers in the demo that’s currently valued. If that demo being valued as high as it is doesn’t change, and WWE doesn’t pull away, what kind of bargaining power will they have when they’re costing 4x as much as AEW’s entire weekly tv deal? Of course they’re still the far more valuable product but 4x as much with similar numbers in the demo advertisers want? What network or cable company would pay that?

Maybe WWE gets to keep its current rate but AEW could have some more leverage for a raise when they current deal is up, all because they can point to 18-49 and say they’re a comparable product.

[Destor]

Yeah, but the reality is, every advertiser is still using Nielsen data to determine their ad rates. Every network is still using Nielsen data behind the scenes in everything they do, they're just supplementing it with other data sources, which has also been common for two decades now. I've done three TV deals and two advertiser deals with multiple networks in the last month alone, every network and advertiser was using Nielsen data as their primary source of data to determine the deal structure. I know for a fact that NBC is still using Nielsen data. I'm in the process of doing a deal with them for a new show next year and they're basing almost the entire contract's pay structure on what new shows typically get in ad rates due to, you guessed it, key demo ratings from Nielsen data. The fact is, despite their flaws (no one says they're not flawed, but that's not what were talking about), Nielsen (not unlike WWE when people think of wrestling) is the gold standard and because of their history, finances, and influence, they're not going to go away anytime soon. That's why the ratings and demos matter, because the business and industries say they do.
i covered every word of this in my post...

[XL]

They don’t track like the free streaming sites. I use em regularly. So many of them, how could they? I’m sure tons of people my age use em.

What value do you (or I) have to advertisers/network execs? We’re not interacting with their platform. We’re stealing content. We don’t add anything to their bottom line unless you then go on to purchase other items produced by the company. What favour are we doing AEW or anyone else by watching on a free stream? We’re not counted anyware.

[Sting Fan]

Fucking nerds and your ratings. Just watch the oiled up muscle men slap one another in undies ffs.

[drave]

Fucking nerds and your ratings. Just watch the oiled up muscle men slap one another in undies ffs.


#POTY

[Fignuts]

i love strong style. always have. strong style with king road booking is probably my favorite kind of wrestling. 2nd would be memphis or mid south. there's a wild gap between those two things of course. which to me should note just how varried wrestling can, and use to, be.



its all US indy now. wwe/aew/njpw its all us indy. just with different shades. some lean slightly more into strong style. others slightly more into lucha. but it becomes this amalgamation that isnt consistent to itself. it creates a thematic issue where the entire card should be getting concepts over and tha isnt possible with this structural vomit that is the modern product.



ive been wanting to broach this topic as a deep dive thread but every time i do it almost feels more like a book so i stop lol

Tanahashi, Suzuki, Ishii, and Goto are the only ones left I'd say, whose styles are built off of classic strong style. Even then, how much of that you get from them also depends on who they're working with.

Last I checked AJPW was the best promotion to watch for classic style puro matches. Lots of big beefy dudes staffing the shit out of each other with Kento Miyahara being the small athletic ace. Been a while since I tuned in though so I'm not sure where they're at right now.

I didn't end up watching the whole Danielson vs suzuki match. My love for Japanese wrestling wrestling is well documented here, and as such I'm naturally a big fan of strike exchanges. But this just felt so hammy. Like they were winking at the camera the whole time. There's an intensity to strike exchanges that makes it work, and feel realistic that a couple guys would just stand there and let each other lay them in. This wasn't that. This looked like two guys having a bit of fun in a way that ponders to a specific audience, at the expense of realism.

[weather vane]

What value do you (or I) have to advertisers/network execs? We’re not interacting with their platform. We’re stealing content. We don’t add anything to their bottom line unless you then go on to purchase other items produced by the company. What favour are we doing AEW or anyone else by watching on a free stream? We’re not counted anyware.

Well I spread the word. Interact on social media. Will attend shows. Watch on TV occasionally. Bought a few PPVs.

[GD]

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[xrodmuc316]

Fucking nerds and your ratings. Just watch the oiled up muscle men slap one another in undies ffs.

Do we talk about ratings because we are nerds, OR does a Nerd skew ratings from week to week so he can always brag he is winning while paying fake journalists to support his bullshit, leading us non nerds to have to continually point out said bullshit because it is such blatant chicanery?

I cant WAIT until Tony Khan sees what Booker said about him, spaz out and react by continuing not to push black men.

[Sting Fan]

Do we talk about ratings because we are nerds,

Its this... its so clearly this.

[xrodmuc316]

Its this... its so clearly this.

Lol fair enough

[Mr. Nerfect]

Some people like to explore not only if something works for them, but others, and how it works. Trying to shut down that conversation or make people feel bad about it is not only futile, but poor taste.

[Mr. Nerfect]

NHL got 542k viewers this week. It got a 0.17 in the alleged key demo. There are people comparing it to Dynamite ratings like Warner are morons for moving Dynamite. People just don’t understand, lol.

[Mr. Nerfect]

MLB got 5.33 million in the TBS Wednesday slot. If you’re someone that believes in the demo, it got a 1.35 in 18-49. Not only is the MLB audience more valuable, but they’re bigger and more valuable. Between that and replacing Big Bang Theory reruns, they’ve actually got some rocks in the water ahead that few people seem to be talking about.

[Fignuts]

Some people like to explore not only if something works for them, but others, and how it works. Trying to shut down that conversation or make people feel bad about it is not only futile, but poor taste.

It's dominating conversations enough where it should probably just have its own thread.

Didn't we have one, or is that the Mantaur effect at work?

[Sting Fan]

Some people like to explore not only if something works for them, but others, and how it works. Trying to shut down that conversation or make people feel bad about it is not only futile, but poor taste.

Gosh, imagine someone on this forum trying to shut down a conversation or make people feel bad for there views or what they discuss.

The horror.

[drave]

It's dominating conversations enough where it should probably just have its own thread.

Didn't we have one, or is that the Mantaur effect at work?




There definitely is one, but it just seeps into nearly every.single.thread.


Its tiring tbh

[drave]

Some people like to explore not only if something works for them, but others, and how it works. Trying to shut down that conversation or make people feel bad about it is not only futile, but poor taste.


:|

[GD]

Unsure why this thread from last week's Rampage is still getting bumped.

[XL]

Ratings, bro.