Succession Spoilers Thread

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

This thread is one giant spoiler. Use black spoiler text if you want, but it's superfluous because it'll be nothing but spoilers, including the most recent ep(s).

That said, I'm still shaking my cobwebs out this morning, so I'll start super vague:

What do you guys (probably just Destor at this point) think of the current season?

I already thought the show was an all-timer, but this last season is really solidifying its standing in my book.


First few eps of Season 1 really weren't all that great, and I thought it only got going in ep 6 (with ep 5 being a gorgeous prologue). Part of this was I thought Logan being at his full powers provided the kids with a necessary foil (and vice versa). The worry with killing Logan was losing that foil--but they've done such great work with each character that it was probably the best thing the show could've done. I love the new arc and love how Logan's ghost looms over literally every scene.

The writers/creators say Tom and Shiv is the driving narrative force of the show, which makes me want to watch it with a different lens. I want to try to be more aware of the ebbs and flows of all other plots/subplots based on their relationship and see if I can draw parallels/chain reactions.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Also Kendall's reaction to the smoke clouds not working properly was fucking hysterical. Logan may as well have just died all over again.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Also, Living+ is also the most Margaret Atwood shit ever.

[Seanny One Ball]

I watch it like it’s the McMahon family nowadays, just waiting for Vince to die or retire and with no assurance of their continued involvement in the business he created. You could say it’s Game Of Thrones without the tits and dragons but with far far better dialogue. I suppose it all goes back to King Lear really, and even that was probably ripped off. It may be the best dialogue driven show I can name off the top of my head, but I suppose I actively avoid political shows and they make up the brunt of the genre.

As for how good this season is… it’s pretty amazing given how predictable it should be. I’m just waiting for the shoe to drop and the kids to realise how fucked they are with or without Logan. Every sniff of success is sniffed out by their own neuroses and inherent belief that they are not the screw ups that they are portrayed to be.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Kendall is my spirit animal. I hate him so much but for the reasons I hate myself.

[Seanny One Ball]

Connor had some big lines in the wedding episode. That “I don’t need love” speech was short but fantastic. I also feel for Roman, but Kendall and Siobhan are equally unstable in a far more destructive way. I particularly enjoyed the Norway episode. Scooby Doo indeed.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I also wanted to crawl into a hole and die when he performed L to the OG.

As far as this season goes, you’re right about how it’s been predictable yet no less astounding in quality. It’s not the general broad plot points that matter, it’s the various shades and intricacies that do.

I realized when Sandy and Stewie’s takeover ended with zero fanfare (followed by a throwaway end to Waystar’s legal troubles) that those components are solely there for context. What’s most important is the character dynamics. Business stuff is the backdrop.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Also next time we have a beef Seanny, I’m just gonna tell you your numbers are gay.

[Seanny One Ball]

Ok but I get to slap you in the ear like Tom

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I don’t blame you. They’re thick and chewy like barnacle meat.

[Seanny One Ball]

L to the OG might be the best scene in the whole show… totally took my breath away.

One of the last episodes I watched had a great reaction in it. When Greg assumed he’ll be Kendall’s second in command and Frank starts pissing himself in a way that looked real as fuck. Even the small things are crafted beyond comparison in Succession.

The Disgusting Brothers ffs… top notch.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The understated, grounded performances of the old guard are so perfect. Now that the apex predator is gone, they can be more candid while maintaining their calmness. Carl’s been on a fucking heater all season. He’s delivered some of my favourite lines of the entire show.

[Seanny One Ball]

I’m really enjoying Connor this season, that’s exactly how inherited wealth should behave. Just embrace the total lack of legitimacy and marry a woman that doesn’t even hate you, she just feels sorry for you.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Alan Ruck is an American treasure and I’ll hear nothing suggesting otherwise.

[Seanny One Ball]

Him and Kieran Culkin are the best cast Roy offspring. While Snook and Strong are both great, they had to win me over first. Snook looks weird these days. Like a male-female power lifter hiding the guns under a suit-strong wardrobe. She looks Herculean compared to other women in the show.

[Seanny One Ball]

Also she has a terrible voice, I’d argue the same for Strong. They have lisps that aren’t lisps, it’s like she gets the back of her tongue trapped in her back teeth when she talks…like a duck hissing.
Strong sounds more like he’s lisping through his teeth instead of lips.

I guess that Habsburg incest crack was pretty good all things considered.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Ken and Shiv needed time because of the layers involved. It took me a while to “get” Ken. I still don’t even know if I do. He reminds me a lot of Pete Campbell from Mad Men but that doesn’t quite do the character or performance justice.

His stammering and stuttering is a thing of beauty. He’s a disaster and nothing he does really lands, but he’s willing to commit and force feed whateve horse shit he’s spewing.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Shane blowing out his knee on a leap frog during his supposed-to-be triumphant return at Mania was so Kendall.

[Seanny One Ball]

Watching Living+ now. Another great episode, every one of the three main siblings is doing their very best to capsize the ship in a slightly different way.
They have been insulated and protected from the repercussions of failure all of their lives, now there’s nobody to motivate them and nobody that cares enough about them or has the influence to rein them in before they lose everything.

I have a few suspicions about how dark the outcome will be. It’s looking to be an epic downfall.

[Seanny One Ball]

Tom totally destroyed Siobhan in their balcony bitch-off. That was glorious from Macfadyen. Sarah Snook wasn’t well directed there. She is not great at anything emotional anyway but they’re playing it like every “complicated” female character nowadays - lots of screwy faces but no real tears so you are expected to believe she’s strong for looking like a bald monkey with a stubbed toe after her husband devastates her with some rapid fire, well articulated baggage unloading.

You need a big cryer for that shit. I want to hear a muffled sob or an angry tearful scream not a character actor trying to cough out some emotion, failing and it being edited to look like she’s struggling to steel herself.

Fuck right off with that. They need to start writing better women, stop writing them as men with tits. It’s too close to the truth now.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I thought she played it right. Like a spoiled brat trying to act tough.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

She’s also the daughter of Logan Roy so she’s not going to be some simpering crybaby.

[Seanny One Ball]

Maybe she should have a heart attack on a plane then.
She looks huge, it’s believable.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Nah she’d remember to wear her compression socks.

[Seanny One Ball]

I’d say all four of those kids are simpering crybabies, Shiv just hides it better. Those Roy brats go bonkers when things don’t go their way, Kendal is self destructive, Roman is self flagellating, Connor is a martyr. Siobhan is more of a “can’t see the wood for the trees” type so she’ll hurt herself but she won’t mean to and will never see it coming.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

They’re all useless in their way and the show highlights it constantly. But there’s also this undercurrent that they’re all in a position to thrive and can do so even if they kind of suck. In the back of my mind, I can’t help but think of all the “Titans of business” who are inevitably exposed as frauds. In a sense , the show could be an origin story for one of those very frauds.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Rhea basically told us who each character was and why they sucked when Logan asked her for an objective assessment.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

At the same time, though, the kids—besides Connor—aren’t necessarily dumb. None of them are a modicum as smart as they think they are. But there’s intelligence there…just a lack of understanding of how to apply it practically.

[Seanny One Ball]

They make terrible decisions in the name of appearing competent enough to hold their own last name. All four are definitely hamstrung by their fathers epic success. There is no hope for any.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Gerri’s pretty sure Waystar will get swallowed by tech but I honestly think it’s too big to fail. Apparently the ending will be wild and unpredictable but who knows? I honestly think you can have have the failsons bumblefucking at the top of the org and it remain afloat because of brand equity. But that’s definitely not how it will play out.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I say this because Logan toward the end wasn’t doing much of use other than when he decided to sell. He basically just yelled at people and fought off takeovers and had deals fall through. He was chasing his tail because he was losing it. Was just getting by on who he used to be and his unlimited access to resources.

By the end, his competency was a myth. He was just intimidating and knew how to carry himself.

I say this as someone who adores Logan, too. Probably one of the best characters in TV history.

[Seanny One Ball]

I see Logan as more of a one dimensional character than the offspring are, in that way I actually think he might be there almost solely for context as you said about the business side earlier on. The context being - this is who you have to be to be successful at the top and pale imitations will not cut the mustard. Everything those kids touch turns to shit so fast purely due to their own conflicting need to impress and piss off their dad. They want to be him without putting in the work, this is why you get Kendall going all weird over clouds…
You’re undeniably right that certain factors make it difficult for the mega successful to go broke or even truly fail, but I think that’s more true of self made men like Logan rather than his typically spoiled and oblivious progeny. They just cut the safety net that would have kept them in the catbird seat too… the old guard and the new money are all ready to drown them before they even get a chance to capsize.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Very good point about Logan. He is totally contextual, which is probably why I see him as a myth, even when he's still alive. He's also the embodiment of the show's contextual "business stuff."

It's also probably why you don't get much into his psyche on the show. You definitely see his doggedness, determination, spitefulness, and pettiness. There's a hint of background story when he and Ewan (who is a personal favourite) get into it. But there's never usually anything deeper going on than his obvious ulterior motives.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Also, the show occurs after Logan's basically lived his entire life. All that's left is for his shadow to loom over his broken children, even when he's still alive those last few years.

-edit-this is why the intro has fucked me up ever since he died.

[Seanny One Ball]

The intro is pretty great, especially the theme tune. I always skip the intro’s but not for Succession. That tune has been stuck in my head a lot.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Kinda like a more menacing Mad Men theme, which is already pretty dark.

[Seanny One Ball]

Dale I’m five minutes into episode 8, I stayed up all night waiting for it to drop.
Tom and Greg give me a boner. I’m conditioned to enjoy their banter now. Like a Pavlov dog.

[Seanny One Ball]

Hey Dale? Stay hydrated.

[Seanny One Ball]

This episode has me all excited. Connor and Willa are fantastic at looking stupid, you have to earn that though and at this point I just love every character so much that it feels as if the show is cheating. Miles ahead of regular tv. Miles.

Kieran Culkin has done it, he’s better than his big brother.

[Seanny One Ball]

Roman Roy is the one. He’s the most like Logan.
I need a hero.

[Seanny One Ball]

Tom should be the one but he’s a climber. His story is already Shakespearean.

[Seanny One Ball]

That was great.

I love the real-time stuff. It felt like an Aaron Sorkin piece but with better dialogue. Some of the best writing ever.

[Seanny One Ball]

Siobhan still cares. That’s where her flaw is. She actually gives a fuck about America.

[Seanny One Ball]

One of the best ever episodes. Acting was so strong it felt real. Beautiful.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yea to call that anything less than an unmitigated triumph would be a crime against good taste.

Once more, not cheap surprises. Everyone stayed true to who they were. Yet, it was no less fucking bonkers.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">When your sister pisses you off and you decide to destroy democracy <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/SuccessionHBO?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#SuccessionHBO</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Succession?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Succession</a> <a href="https://t.co/diqUhknOvP">pic.twitter.com/diqUhknOvP</a></p>&mdash; Ross Keith (@r_keith_) <a href="https://twitter.com/r_keith_/status/1657958177772650496?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 15, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Seanny One Ball]

When you make big decisions you need a guy called Greg to Coke you up.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Just be careful tho cuz you may get wasabi in your eye.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

chased with mildly lemon-flavored Le Croix

[Seanny One Ball]

That particular scene brought it home for me. Rich people suck.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol the preview for next week feels like the climax of Roman's villain origin story.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Kieran Culkin has been on fire all season.

[Triple A]

Siobhan still cares. That’s where her flaw is. She actually gives a fuck about America.

She always seemed like the most evil/selfish of all the siblings to me... Others are also evil but seem to have more "feelings" sometimes and don't seem as sociopathic...

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Their mother is the real villain

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Queen of the harpies

[Seanny One Ball]

She always seemed like the most evil/selfish of all the siblings to me... Others are also evil but seem to have more "feelings" sometimes and don't seem as sociopathic...

Her and Kendall are the most actively self destructive in terms of their business dealings when they should know better given the coaching they have had, but that’s probably because nobody respects Roman enough to take him seriously due to his caustic personality.
Shiv definitely cares more about the status quo than her brothers, Kendall is out there trying to build things up only to flip the script on a whim every single time he gets close to it.
Part of me rates Roman as secretly “most like his dad” as a businessman due to his willingness to embrace any outcome that favours their position but Shiv definitely wants to be seen that way the most.

All three are seriously fucked up in terms of creating their own obstacles. I think that’s why I like Tom and Greg so much. They are dilettantes in the Amorality game compared to the Roys.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Roman's machinations last episodes reflected his dad more than anything his siblings have ever done. So did firing Joy and Jerry in a fit of rage. Obviously, Logan would typically have been more strategic about the firings but if it was a situation where his ire was raised to the degree of Roman's, he'd have shitcanned both on the spot. And, of course, Roman hasn't earned the power and respect of his father, so he seems like much more of a spoiled punk just going around and firing people at the drop of a hat.

Romulus's fatal flaw will prove to be his perversions--which seem to be a result of Logan's physical and psychological abuse. Really, Logan's callous child-rearing techniques and his big, big shoes cultivated all the flaws holding back his children.

[Seanny One Ball]

Logan Roy dying off-screen was so good… I couldn’t figure it out at the time but now I see it as “He’s out of the way now” combined with “We can’t ever seem to get close to him”.
That was well played anyway, it dropped all four siblings right back into their natural positions, even Connor.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Big Jimmy Cromwell. What a beauty.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

"Those were some good hard takes."

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Baby Ro Ro still has it what it takes to be a good CEO but he was always destined to go down in flames in this scenario.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Especially when Ewan already lit the fire. Fucking impossible for someone as green as Roman to follow.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Catfood Ozymandeus.

[Seanny One Ball]

I think the line was “She was my Kerry” or something to that effect… classic classic shit man. That actress playing Kerry does “emotionally unstable” brilliantly. I actually almost felt bad.

Succession is going to end in disaster for the Roys, a disaster that earns or costs them hundreds of millions but takes their egos for everything.

Kieran Culkin was fucking incredible in that episode. That really was the best of the acting, Strong just nailed his delivery so well that it might overshadow it despite not being as excellent. Culkin threw me there, that is also down to some top class writing and direct though. The whole concept of this show should be applauded for how freshly it approaches a tired subject.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Most subjects are tired. All that's left is fresh approaches, and the writers of the show have those in spades.

Culkin channeling that level of grief through his physical and verbal acting was really something. The way he shrank and moaned was harrowing.

[Seanny One Ball]

Yeah, and him trending on Tik Tok afterwards was pretty freakin’ accurate

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And also Roman would be the one laughing at someone who went viral on TikTok for the exact same thing. Yet I still feel terrible for him. Goddamn TV.

[Seanny One Ball]

L to the OG

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The best part about L to the OG is Kendall’s earnestness. He is of the utmost belief that his rap about his weird abusive dad is hard as fuck. And that’s why I love Kendall.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I wouldn't have had it end any other way.

[Seanny One Ball]

That was a great ending, I was glad to see the siblings compulsion to self destruct came to its natural conclusion with a few surprises. The dialogue and scene setting was tremendous, made even more enjoyable with top form performances from everybody involved.

Succession has been another one of those amazing television series that ranks with the very finest.

I’m glad Tom won in the end. Tom is the best.

[Seanny One Ball]

Oh God he’s never going to sleep again…

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

As an engaged viewer who was having fun with different ideas for outcomes, I wanted Kendall to transform into a monster like his dad (but worse) and take over. I also knew any such prediction likely wouldn't come to fruition.

Regardless, the outcome was way better than any cute bullshit idea I had about Kendall. Wouldn't have been right for it to go any other way than what they did and I am happy they remained disciplined about sticking to the clear and present trajectory we were always on.


Also, I had a feeling when Tom worked during Logan's funeral (hearkening back to Kendall NOT working during Logan's Bday in the first ep) combined with Shiv selling Mattsen on a puppet CEO that he'd made the case for himself.

This show is def an all-timer for me.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Me and my buddy always call Kendall, Biff Loman

[Seanny One Ball]

If there’s one reason not to have glass walls in your office - it’s that finale.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol I loved how they were the kids screeching outside of dad's office to get his attention. But daddy wasn't there to come out and yell "silence!"

[Seanny One Ball]

I feel very satisfied with it. I’m also glad I gave it a second chance, I watched most of it in the last year after I tried it and decided it was too dry.

It is definitely not too dry.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah I'm glad I was in the headspace to enjoy it. I'm not always that lucky for shows like this.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Cunt is as cunt does.

[Seanny One Ball]

I’M THE ELDEST BOY

[Seanny One Ball]

No you’re not mate, Connor is.

Good line that, shows you a lot about the real power struggle.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The funniest, saddest line I’ve witnessed in television. A perfect encapsulation of the show. (Re: eldest boy.)

Using “eldest” is perfect as a word choice because it’s kind of like a 7 year old older brother trying to sound grown up so he can pull rank.

[Seanny One Ball]

Post that rep you sent me, that never crossed my mind and it holds up to scrutiny.
I am going to go back and listen to the speech he gave a few episodes back, the one about love.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I can never remember the reps I send (rampant marijuana usage). What did I say?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Also Peter Munyon is the fuckin best. Just a total shit stick.

[Seanny One Ball]

I love how they never realize that Connor is their real father figure. Love the hints the show leaves (plus even basically saying it) then having Connor live in Logan’s penthouse.

[Seanny One Ball]

He really is the most caring one, even if he’s a lunatic with crazy aspirations and a wife that pities him. Ruck’s best role by far.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And his three siblings treat him like shit, unappreciative and unaware that he’s always there to be supportive.

[Seanny One Ball]

He’s a great piece of tragedy thrown into a show that makes so many un-likeable character’s likeable. I really am going to miss this and Barry as a great Monday night.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Ken’s birthday episode when he has one of his big meltdowns is where Connor shines most. Just refuses to give up his jacket, then when Kendall shows the the parody newspaper headline about Connor shitting himself on the camping trip, Con lets him have it. And he says how he took Ken and Roman because Logan wouldn’t and he ate bad fish.

I got the idea Con did “dad” stuff a lot. But Caroline’s children just think he’s a loser dumbass (lol and he is) so they don’t really appreciate it. I also noticed after that scene mentioned above Roman made fun of him a lot less lol. There came a point where they seemed to intentionally write Connor more sympathetically. They seemed to lean into more revelations about his past (loony cake, for instance). And with Willa it went from creepy and concerning to him being more portrayed as a harmless, deluded buffoon and her accepting him (as long as he’s keeping up his end of the arrangement).

TBH their transactional relationship is the only romantic relationship a Roy child could have. It’s the only way to cut the bullshit.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I write fiction as a hobby and I hope one day I'm secure enough with my characters to write someone as pathetic (and oddly loveable) as Kendall Roy.

[Destor]

Just finished 402


Few weeks back i told xrod he wasnt a serious person. Dale repped me saying that was very logan roy of me. I didnt follow the meaning until Logan literally said that to his kids in 402.


Fair enough.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Logan has a way with words lol

[Destor]

403


So like i said in the other thread this i wouldve imagined to be something for 408 or even 409. Doing it here sets the stage for a feeding frenzy across the next 7 eps which is a very interesting approach and completely shakes up the dynamic.


It does open the door for them to end in a more positive place than they otherwise could have. Finding unity through loss and all that...but this is secession. Every hug comes with a free knife.

[Destor]

Watching the behind the scenes and holy shit they shot a 28 min scene with no cuts. Obviously what we got had cuts to the plane but what was done on set was a 28min oner. Outstanding

[Seanny One Ball]

Logan never in frame during the death scene. Quality.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Sarah Snook’s reaction especially on the phone was top notch.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

One of my favourite parts of that episode is it's called Connor's Wedding.

[Destor]

Really is the perfect title. No one cares about conner

[Seanny One Ball]

Dale says Connor is the real father figure. Hard to disagree. He gets good lines.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

"Too Much Birthday" in season 3 seals the deal for me. The kids spend so much time vying for Logan's approval when Connor is the one taking them on camping trips and spending quality time with them, and all Kendall can do is make fun of him for shitting his sleeping bag after he ate bad fish.

[Destor]

Being a father figure isnt about throwing baseballs and hugs. Its about how the viewer emulates them. None of them look to conner as a model for how to live their lives. They look at him with disdain; like he's a cosmic punchline. They look to Logan and they mold their personas around his. He's the father figure theyve chosen, thats written all over their own actions. Kindness, morality or even quality aren't factors.

"The kids spend time vying for Logans attention" is because he's their father figure. Connors just the one with a good heart, and a really bad brain. Both of those reasons are probably why he was rejected by the patrafamilias to begin with; so goes Logan so goes the tribe.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I’d argue Connor shows and Logan tells. Logan says everything he does is for his family. Connor actually is there for his family. He lends emotional support. He steps up when asked.

But he is a dumbfuck. And thus, yes, his more intellectual sibs look down upon him. But he’s the one who’s there.

Logan is undoubtedly the chosen father figure, but he’s emotionally absent, as well as often physically absent. He’s a myth as both a man and a father.

I could change the verbiage and say Connor has been “more of a dad” than Logan, as opposed to all an consuming patriarchal force (which Logan is).

[Destor]

Connor might have been a better choice for a father figure but they didnt chose him. He certainly has a larger capacity for compassion.

[Destor]

Theres a potentially interesting take if you look a Roman though. Roman has a similar heart as Connor but he's layered on a false persona that resembles the rest of his family.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah I would say he’s the father figure that “should be.” But he’s definitely there, and can be there if they can all get over themselves and accept that their dumb dumb big bro can actually be counted on for fatherly support. He, of course, continually undercuts himself via boobery, but what father doesn’t?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Theres a potentially interesting take if you look a Roman though. Roman has a similar heart as Connor but he's layered on a false persona that resembles the rest of his family.

Roman told the newspaper that his most cherished father-son moment with Logan was actually something he did with Connor.

At the end of the day, the show isn’t going to hit you in the face with these sorts of things. But I’m just taking the hints given, and this speaks further to it. Roman—especially at the beginning of the series—reminded me a lot of Connor. And I always wondered if he was particularly hard on Con (especially in those earlier seasons) because of how much of himself he saw in Connor.

[Destor]

Roman hates doing the things the rest of the family does. He goes along because, like connor, he's spineless. Every ounce of fortitude and machismo that he manifests is manufactured. Its inauthentic to his true self. Not to get overly Jungian but his shadow is completely hidden from himself. Its detached like its straight out of Peter Pan. He's lost track of his true self. But unlike Pan he doesnt quest to find it and reincorperate it. He believes, honestly, that he's just like the rest of them. And by extention unlike Connor.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Roman offers an interesting dichotomy.

Yeah, there's a dichotomy surrounding all the main characters. Without it, the show would just be shitty rich people being assholes without much perspective.

However, Roman is--in many ways--sweet-hearted and wants everyone to get along but says vitriolic shit.

There are points where he's lost in the muck, and he just doesn't give a fuck and is a huge asshole. That's usually when he's drunk on Logan.

Even still, I wouldn't say the worst things he says or does are any worse than the worst things Shiv or Kendall say or do, but "the act" has him firing mean-spirited zingers at a more fervent rate.

But he loves his family. He has no friends outside of it. So, yeah, he goes along and plays the games because his family is basically his identity. He gets wrapped up in trying to be "the guy" because that's what the Roy children (born of Caroline) do.

Yet, he'd clearly be much happier doing his own thing free from Logan's shadow, which was why he was so insistent that Ken and Shiv not bother with the Pierce bullshit in the first ep of the season. Sadly, like Connor, he's got no spine. So on went the Pierce acquisition.

Logan has so much power over him, too. Maybe even more than Ken and Shiv. The desperate want for (abusive) Daddy's love also makes him forget who he is.

[Destor]

404


I love the juxtaposition of when Logans girlfriend (whos name i never learned) enters. She's feeling real emotion. Everyone else either never did or has already moved so far beyond them they might as well have never had them. Meanwhile she is disheveled and broken. Emotional to the point of incoherence. And the family is disgusted by the sight of it. And of course they are, she reflects how inhuman they all are.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

More to the point of our conversation about Ro--which Roy child came in and was super empathetic towards Keri?

[Destor]

Roman, and more over he told his mother how shitty was being

[Destor]

A genuine emotional observation by roman. Something no one else wanted to be on the same planet as

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Marcia is also tremendous in that scene. Her saltiness was legendary.

[Seanny One Ball]

Being a father figure isnt about throwing baseballs and hugs. Its about how the viewer emulates them. None of them look to conner as a model for how to live their lives. They look at him with disdain; like he's a cosmic punchline. They look to Logan and they mold their personas around his. He's the father figure theyve chosen, thats written all over their own actions. Kindness, morality or even quality aren't factors.

"The kids spend time vying for Logans attention" is because he's their father figure. Connors just the one with a good heart, and a really bad brain. Both of those reasons are probably why he was rejected by the patrafamilias to begin with; so goes Logan so goes the tribe.



Calm down mate, you’ll live longer.

[Seanny One Ball]

Destor with the ol’ “I don’t want it to be true so it’s not true” shenanigans.
They gravitate towards family when things get tough, Connor is the only one with open arms.

[Destor]

You've laid out your point really poorly but if you're saying that the bunper sticker jargon that "a dad id the one who's there" is some sort of universal truth well yeah i couldnt disagree more. We choose who we emulate subconsciously. And that could absolutely be an absentee father. Sorry step dads. Being the nicest aint it.

[Destor]

If so, youre essentially claiming that being highly disagreeable people, disagreeable being a primary personality trait clinically btw, have less value as humans and parents. Thats fundamentally false and doesnt have a leg to stand on.

[Destor]

Again kindess, morality or even quality have nothing to do with it. Mimicry. The proof is in the pudding not your feelings.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

At the very least we can agree it's worth the conversation lol. I like the idea that Connor is the father figure they CAN have and Logan is the one they choose. An unrequited father figure, if you will.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

There's no doubt--also--that Logan was very much involved in his children's upbringing. He was very present in some of the worst ways and not present in ways he was most needed. Again, the show doesn't necessarily hit you over the head with it--we don't get flashbacks, only allusions to the past. He was clearly "around," but more as a looming presence like we see in the opening credits.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And, in the areas where Logan was needed (and he didn't show up), Connor was there, stepping up. Was he appreciated? No. Did it mean anything to his siblings? It doesn't seem like it. But he definitely would've been a better father figure to those kids than Logan. That rings true regardless of how big of a dumbass he is.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Also what I said wasn't meant to stir up an argument lol. It just seemed the writers wanted to convey Connor as a low-key father figure based on some clues as the show kept going, such as some of the references to their upbringing. That's all. And, with a show like this, there's no concrete right or wrong. There is simply your interpretation.

[Destor]

Hey look tpww finally loaded for me, huzzah!



Finale isnt fresh in my mind but i will say i felt Shiv's betrayal was just a liiiiiitle unearned. Great show, great ending. Just wish there'd been a bit more leg work on getting then opposed to going for a "twist."

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Unearned? The fuck? You’ve watched the whole show, Destor. That wasn’t a twist for twist’s sake. It was ALWAYS there. Think about how she was treated when Logan died. Marginalized immediately, then was in league with Mattson. Like the allegiance the three of them formed was clearly on shaky ground and she saw Kendall with his feet on the desk and acting like the world’s biggest douche cronying up to Stew-pot (then his shitty performance before the vote) and was like “fuck this guy.” What are they supposed to do, Dessy, have Kendall punch her in her pregnant belly and only then have the betrayal? The best part of the show is that it lets you figure it out, treating the viewer like they’re intelligent. Shiv betraying Kendall is deep in the DNA of the show.

[Destor]

Everything you said wouldve been valid had the penultimate episode not occured. They resolved all their conflict, and had a genuinely great moment as a family, and then arbitrarily reneged on it. Thats what was unearned. They concocted a plan, plan went according to plan, and then abandoned the plan for the sake of abandoning the plan.


Now obviously the penultimate episode (409?) Only existed to create the "shocking twist" and its in that that it felt lazy and unearned. Its the same methodology Damon Lindleloff loves so much and it rarely feels good as a viewer. You didnt trick the audience the betrayed your characters and when the chracters are written so well as they are here it stings all the more.


Its not the conclusion thats the issue or the betrayal. Its the misdirection before it. The hard pivots in both directions are at odds in a thousand different ways none of which are organic.

[Destor]

The ending wouldve been better served with leaving the tension between the 3 and having them enter the board room with the tension at peak and letting the drama of the vote be the climax

[Seanny One Ball]

Shiv turning on the very idea of Kendall being the “one” is big picture shit and it worked brilliantly. That fight in the glass walled office was incredible, a truly gobsmacking scene.

[Seanny One Ball]

Don’t make me mention Shakespeare again