QUESTION - Is there a danger in pushing guys like Orton, Cena, and Mordecai too soon?

[Heyman]

QUESTION - Is there a danger in pushing guys like Orton, Cena, and Mordecai too soon?

-We saw what happened with Brock Lesnar. Lesnar was pushed to the moon and before we knew it, he had practically achieved everything that was left to achieve......of all this, in a two-year span. This was arguably one of the main causes as to why Lesnar grew tired of the WWE. He was no longer "motivated".........and why would he? What had he left to achieve?

-With that in mind, do you think the same thing would happened to wrestlers such as John Cena, Randy Orton, Mordecai, and Kenzo Suzuki? Pushing guys IMMEDIATELY does have its advantages (in terms of creating stars that can draw), but how good is this for the long term?

-It took at guy like Austin 8 years to win the World title. It also took guys like The Rock and Shawn Michaels a few years. A guy like Chris Benoit just won recently for christ sakes (over an 18 year time span!).

The point I'm trying to make, is that <font color=wheat>perhaps its better to NOT push wrestlers too fast too soon. This way - they stay 'motivated' in striving to attain their goals. Once they reach the top, they will be MORE motivated to STAY at the top</font>.

Think of guys like the Undertaker and Triple H. Now think of guys like the Ultimate Warrior and Brock Lesnar. Think of guys like Guerrero and Benoit now.


In this day and age - I don't think it's too smart to have guys be 'held down' for too long (otherwise the fans subconsciously perceive them to be mid-carders or jobbers). Perhaps this is what happened to guys like Test and Val Venis. Perhaps - this is what will prevent EDGE from being taken seriously as a main-eventer.

HOWEVER - I also don't think people should be pushed too fast. Once you've ascended to the top too fast too quick, motivation can become a problem. Ego's can go through the roof as well. Furthermore - it becomes a LOT tougher to appreciate what you really have (or have been given). We've seen this with Brock Lesnar, Hulk Hogan, and Goldberg.


Perhaps the BEST way to push someone, is the way the WWE pushed guys like Rocky Maivia (The Rock) and Kurt Angle.


In each of these instances:

-we saw both men make immediate impacts. Both men won the IC title within 6 months of their debuting.

-HOWEVER --> neither men were made to look "invincible". While both men had sensational victories, both men also did their fair share of jobs.

-Neither men won the World title for atleast 2 years (Angle may have won it within a year, but he wasn't taken SERIOUSLY as a main-eventer until 2001......when he fought Austin).

Bottom line, is that both men had their period where they were 'paying dues'. At the same time however, both men had made a big enough initial impact to be respected by the fans.


As we are seeing with Orton, Cena, and now Mordecai, these 3 men have earned the respect of the fans. HOWEVER - I think the WWE should be careful as to how fast these guys win the World title.

If Orton and Cena are slated to win the World titles next year at Wrestlemania, then they should start paying some serious dues right now.

[MVP]

Mordecai has the kind of gimmick that has to be pushed to the moon early on or else it's going to mean nothing, and he'll just be another jobber flip-flopping from gimmick to gimmick. Undertaker was given a pretty big push when he joined WWE, and he capitalized right away, despite being slighty held down for a good 5 years after.

[Heyman]

Mordecai has the kind of gimmick that has to be pushed to the moon early on or else it's going to mean nothing,

I agree that Mordecai should be 'pushed to the moon' early, but I DON"T think that he should be anywhere near a world title reign for atleast a few years. We don't want another Kane do we?

[MVP]

I agree that Mordecai should be 'pushed to the moon' early, but I DON"T think that he should be anywhere near a world title reign for atleast a few years. We don't want another Kane do we?Definitely not, can you picture Mordecai bald, still wearing all white, and involved in a lousy stalker angle?

[Heyman]

Definitely not, can you picture Mordecai bald, still wearing all white, and involved in a lousy stalker angle?

well............this IS the WWE we're talking about. :nono:

Lord knows when Stephanie McMahon will become a part of the Creative team on Smackdown again. :nono: :nono:

[Edge]

j

[big_bluto]

I don't think it's fair to talk about Cena/Orton and Mordecai in the same topic.
Cena & Ortons pushes have been steady, not too in your face, not Lesnarish, but probably more along the lines of Kurt Angle and The Rock.

Mordecai has been here for what? 3 weeks?
I haven't seen him get pushed down anyones throats yet.
Couple of squash matches with some Crusierweight jobbers? Who hasn't done that?
It wouldn't surprise me if Mordecai was only a short-term prospect, and returned to OVW after 3 or 4 months.
As for earning the respect of the fans?
Cena and Orton are well on their way too earning some respect.
Mordecai hasn't been around long enough. Don't confuse excitement at the new guy with the gimmick for respect for a wrestler.

So as for massive pushes, I would say that for Orton & Cena, they are doing it exactly right. Nice and steady, not too fast. Not JBL!

Mordecai - I'll wait and see.

[LK]

Originally posted by big_bluto
I don't think it's fair to talk about Cena/Orton and Mordecai in the same topic.
Cena & Ortons pushes have been steady, not too in your face, not Lesnarish, but probably more along the lines of Kurt Angle and The Rock.

Mordecai has been here for what? 3 weeks?
I haven't seen him get pushed down anyones throats yet.
Couple of squash matches with some Crusierweight jobbers? Who hasn't done that?
It wouldn't surprise me if Mordecai was only a short-term prospect, and returned to OVW after 3 or 4 months.
As for earning the respect of the fans?
Cena and Orton are well on their way too earning some respect.
Mordecai hasn't been around long enough. Don't confuse excitement at the new guy with the gimmick for respect for a wrestler.

So as for massive pushes, I would say that for Orton & Cena, they are doing it exactly right. Nice and steady, not too fast. Not JBL!

Mordecai - I'll wait and see.I don't think it's fair to talk about Cena/Orton and Mordecai in the same topic.
Cena & Ortons pushes have been steady, not too in your face, not Lesnarish, but probably more along the lines of Kurt Angle and The Rock.

Mordecai has been here for what? 3 weeks?
I haven't seen him get pushed down anyones throats yet.
Couple of squash matches with some Crusierweight jobbers? Who hasn't done that?
It wouldn't surprise me if Mordecai was only a short-term prospect, and returned to OVW after 3 or 4 months.
As for earning the respect of the fans?
Cena and Orton are well on their way too earning some respect.
Mordecai hasn't been around long enough. Don't confuse excitement at the new guy with the gimmick for respect for a wrestler.

So as for massive pushes, I would say that for Orton & Cena, they are doing it exactly right. Nice and steady, not too fast. Not JBL!

Mordecai - I'll wait and see.

:y: Yeah I wouldn't say that Mordecai has earned my respect even though his character has been interesting and his entrance kicks major ass. He hasn't done anything major in the ring yet. As far as Orton and Cena go I would agree with what has been said by big_bluto.

[Nowhere Man]

Wow. Heyman made a point that I completely and totally agree on!

Guys like Orton, Cena, Lesnar, Warrior, etc., are what I like to call "Shake 'n' Bake" superstars. They're all made quickly and easily along the same basic formula, shoved down people's throats, and then forgotten just as quickly as they were made up. They can be pretty good, but in the long run, going the quick-and-easy route makes them absolutely nothing memorable. Just like Shake 'n' Bake.

.....dammit, now I'm all hungry. And KFC's not open yet.

Since he's my favorite example, let's take a look at Randy Orton, and why they're going to end up wasting a potential superstar:

1) Too Green: and that has nothing to do with all that "paying your dues" stuff. For someone who looks to be on the verge of a main-event push, he leaves a lot to be desired. His promos, which are cornerstones for a good heel, are unbelievably bland and ho-hum. His ring work is good when he's working against a solid leader, but when he's the one carrying the momentum of the match, he seems lost.

That's nothing a little experience can't cure. Problem is, no one knows how long people need. Some guys make leaps and bounds over the span of a few short months. Other guys need years to perfect their art. Some guys never get the hang of it. Pushing a guy before he's ready for it is taking a pretty huge gamble, and it very rarely ever pays off.

2) Crowd Unfamiliarity and Rejection: After the first few months of super-pushing, the crowd usually wears off and, unless you're the Rock, loses interest. Most of the main event players who succeed have been around for a long time and have made names for themselves with the crowd (except Undertaker and Austin, but they were hardly 'rookies' when they came to WWE) Sure, Orton's a good worker, tries hard, and can eventually get extremely over with the fans, but there are workers on Orton's level who have tried harder, are already more over with the crowd, and much readier for a big push. Instead of giving the crowd what they want and expect to see, which is for those guys to step up, they instead have a new guy who they don't know get forced on them while the other guys are held back, and the crowd will almost always reject them.

Also, most of the really successful gimmicks are from things we haven't seen before. No one had been as foul-mouthed and hostile as Austin when he hit the scene. No one had been that good at pulling off the "super-arrogant jerk" routine as The Rock. What's Orton got? A bad guy who's full of himself? Yawn.

3) No Future: Nearly all of the wrestlers who get quick-fast super pushes have practically no longevity whatsoever when it's over. Ultimate Warior bombed as Champion. Goldberg was nothing special after the Streak was over. Brock Lesnar is now a laughingstock in wrestling circles. Right now, Orton's really got nothing going for him that will stand the test of time. You can't build an entire career around being the guy who beat Mick Foley 4 years after he retired. The "Legend Killer" gimmick is going to get very old, very fast, and unless he can do something unforgettable within the next year or so, he'll be washed up before he even reaches his prime, and by the time he's developed the skills necessary to carry main-event level matches, no one will care.

My point is, if they really want to make guys like Randy Orton or John Cena successful, they should make long-term investments in them and push the talent already on hand while they work their way up, instead of relying on quick solutions and flash-in-the-pan success.

[Stickman]

If Orton turns on Ric Flair, out wrestles him, and then beats the Undertaker at wrestlemania the crowd will accept him.

[The CyNick]

You cant hold guys down too long. Once people percieve guys to be mid carders or lower, its hard to get them to think of them as main eventers, unless they have a steady build to the top.

Rock was pushed down our throats form day one, but he still got over. Yeah they had to go in a different direction with him (as a heel) because of the fan reaction, but he was never put in a position where he was doing a lot of JOBs. Same with Angle, he was pushed quickly and he got over. He could have been a bigger draw, but he got jobbed out too much.

If you look at Hogan's real beginning with the WWE, he was pushed from day one. he came back to the Fed after being gone for a while and within a month or two he was WWF Champion.

As a promoter you have to listen to the fans, they'll tell you who to push. You look at TV ratings, house shows and now PPVs and that will tell you who the fans want to see on top. Once you figure that out you have to protect them and put them on a path to get to the top. That could take two years or it could take two months. There's not one proper way to do it.

[PureHatred]

That's true. Maybe it's just that it's more noticeable with a huge push when a mistake is made. If a wresler makes a slow rise to the top, working a series of midcard feuds, doing the job on occasion, then finally getting into main event slots, there's a real sense of who the wrestler is and he's better developed. The stroylines don't even have to work out perfectly, because even with the occasional slip up character-wise, there's time o rebuild the wrestler and to give them back any heat or credibility they lost.

With the rocket push, it just seems like once one of these guys has lost heat, they just have a harder time getting it back. You could argue Goldberg never recovered from his loss to Nash. And if Lesnar hadn't gone to the NFL, what do you do with him once he jobs to Undertaker? If you go back far enough, Ultimate Warrior had a monstrous push, and then became a complete afterthought once he dropped the World Title.

I just think with a slow build, you have a better chance of really establishing a character, of really having them have a better conection with the fans, and of really ensuring them as a better draw for the long-term.

[The CyNick]

See the other thing is that back in the day you could take a lot more time with pushes. Guys weren't working on TV every week in competitive matches, so it was easy to strecth out a build for months or even years. Nowadays guys are slotted into certain positions, and we see them in those spots every week. Thats why a guy like Matt Hardy will have a tough time making it to the top, even though he has the talent to be there. I mean we've seen him lose so much, its tough for the average fan to all of a sudden go "okay now he's a main event guy".

With Goldberg, I dont think he was hurt so much by the loss to Nash as he was by the fact that he never got revenge. Again, go back to Hogan, he lost to Andre in 88, but what kept him over was that he avenged the loss, and then worked back up to get the title back. In WCW Goldberg never got that revenge, and then he had injuries, ill advised heel turns and all that contributed to his downfall as a major draw.

And then with Lesnar, I dont think the success was a big factor, I think the travel and the politics are what caused him to rethink his goals and tryout for the NFL. I mean its hard to imagine someone would be upset being at the top, you just the best payoffs, you get to headline all the shows, so why would that bother you?

[PureHatred]

Well, Hogan's loss to Andre had the whole Hebner twins thing that drove home the fact that he didn't really 'lose' to the viewers, but I see your point.

Still, with Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit as examples, it is possible for workers to build up to having a fanbase and being seen as legit main eventers. Both men were helped by being able to stel the show while working in the midcard, but that doesn't mean it's not possible with to do the same with Orton and Cena. (you have to throw out Mordecai in this discussion because his character prett much demands a run as a monster)

Orton and Cena are going to be stars, regardless. But why not wait until next year to put the in the main event scene? They're both still over. And the more experience they get working matches, working the crowd, doing promos, the better they'll be when they are put in the position as headliners. There's no right way to push a guy. But at some point, doesn't the WWE have to try to build for the future, and not just for the next PPV?

[The CyNick]

Yeah you're right, it is possibel to get guys over even now by building them up slowly. I think you can only do that with guys who are really really talented. In other words I dont think that formula would work with say Cena, because he's not that great in the ring, and he would get exposed over time. Whereas guys like Eddie and Chris are feel good stories of guys who are ultra talented finally getting their due. Of course it should also be noted that most of the guys who came up with "work from the bottom mentality" (Bret, Shawn, Benoit, Eddie) were not as big of stars as the guys who pushed to the moon from the beginning (Hogan, Rock, Austin). But of course there are guys like Nash who were pushed ot the moon and fell ont heir face, so there's no one right answer.

[Nowhere Man]

Well, therein lies another point. You said that a long-term push would only work if the guy you're pushing is really talented. Well, why bother pushing someone who's not worth pushing in the first place?