Rate the Game: Week 147

[M-A-G]

Getting another late start here, but I had some issues to handle with the people who run the place where I rent. Not fun stuff. But I'll tell you what's definitely fun stuff: RATE THE GAME, BABY! Now in its 147th week, this edition is sure to bring us more of the love that we've been sharing throughout its tenure here. But first, how much love did last week's Metal Gear Solid 2 receive? Surely it had the potential to outshine its predecessor in the rankings, no? Let's have a look!


<select><option selected="">Rate the Game Results

<option>1. Super Mario World (4.81)
<option>2. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (4.8)</option>
<option>3. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (4.8)</option>
<option>4. Hitman: Codename 47 (4.75)</option>
<option>5. Mass Effect (4.75)</option>
<option>6. Goldeneye 007 (4.72)</option>
<option>7. Super Mario Bros. 3 (4.7)</option>
<option>8. Silent Hill 2 (4.66)</option>
<option>9. Super Mario Bros. 2 (4.5)</option>
<option>10. Portal (4.5)</option>
<option>11. Red Dead Redemption (4.5)</option>
<option>12. Chrono Trigger (4.5)</option>
<option>13. Final Fantasy 3 (4.5)</option>
<option>14. Silent Hill 3 (4.5)</option>
<option>15. Mega Man 2 (4.44)</option>
<option>16. Donkey Kong Country (4.44)</option>
<option>17. Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars (4.44)</option>
<option>18. Super Mario Bros. (4.41)</option>
<option>19. God of War (4.4)</option>
<option>20. Mega Man X (4.36)</option>
<option>21. Metal Gear Solid (4.33)</option>
<option>22. BioShock (4.33)</option>
<option>23. Ōkami (4.33)</option>
<option>24. Perfect Dark (4.3)</option>
<option>25. Shadow of the Colossus (4.28)</option>
<option>26. The Last of Us (4.28)</option>
<option>27. Super Street Fighter 2 (4.15)</option>
<option>28. Sonic the Hedgehog (4.14)</option>
<option>29. Resident Evil 2 (4.14)</option>
<option>30. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (4.125)</option>
<option>31. Super Mario 64 (4.07)</option>
<option>32. Grand Theft Auto 3 (4.06)</option>
<option>33. The Legend of Zelda (4.06)</option>
<option>34. NBA Jam (4.05)</option>
<option>35. Super Mario Kart (4.0)</option>
<option>36. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (4.0)</option>
<option>37. Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 (4.0)</option>
<option>38. Super Smash Bros. (4.0)</option>
<option>39. Super Metroid (4.0)</option>
<option>40. Star Fox 64 (4.0)</option>
<option>41. The Simpsons (4.0)</option>
<option>42. Resident Evil 4 (4.0)</option>
<option>43. EarthBound (4.0)</option>
<option>44. Fallout 3 (4.0)</option>
<option>45. Mirror's Edge (4.0)</option>
<option>46. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (4.0)</option>
<option>47. Donkey Kong Country 2 (4.0)</option>
<option>48. X-Men Legends (4.0)</option>
<option>49. Banjo-Kazooie (4.0)</option>
<option>50. Dishonored (4.0)</option>
<option>51. Final Fantasy 7 (3.94)</option>
<option>52. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Turtles in Time (3.92)</option>
<option>53. Mega Man (3.89)</option>
<option>54. Castlevania (3.86)</option>
<option>55. Contra (3.86)</option>
<option>56. Devil May Cry (3.86)</option>
<option>57. Half-Life 2 (3.85)</option>
<option>58. Half-Life (3.83)
<option>59. Final Fantasy 8 (3.83)</option>
<option>60. Infamous (3.83)</option>
<option>61. SimCity 2000 (3.8)</option>
<option>62. Final Fight (3.8)</option>
<option>63. Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver (3.77)</option>
<option>64. Batman: Arkham Asylum (3.76)</option>
<option>65. Double Dragon (3.75)</option>
<option>66. Tomb Raider (2013) (3.75)</option>
<option>67. Max Payne (3.75)</option>
<option>68. Fallout 4 (3.75)</option>
<option>69. Tetris (3.69)</option>
<option>70. Mortal Kombat 2 (3.67)</option>
<option>71. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (3.66)</option>
<option>72. Alan Wake (3.66)</option>
<option>73. Diablo (3.66)</option>
<option>74. Xenoblade Chronicles (3.66)</option>
<option>75. F.E.A.R. (3.66)</option>
<option>76. Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty (3.66)</option>
<option>77. Mortal Kombat (3.65)</option>
<option>78. Doom (3.625)</option>
<option>79. StarFox (3.61)</option>
<option>80. X-Men (3.6)</option>
<option>81. Resident Evil (3.58)</option>
<option>82. Kirby's Adventure (3.57)</option>
<option>83. Daytona USA (3.5)</option>
<option>84. Ninja Gaiden (3.5)</option>
<option>85. Burnout Paradise (3.5)</option>
<option>86. Thief: The Dark Project (3.5)</option>
<option>87. Dark Souls (3.5)</option>
<option>88. Shinobi (3.5)</option>
<option>89. Dead Space (3.4)</option>
<option>90. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater (3.39)</option>
<option>91. Resident Evil: Nemesis (3.38)</option>
<option>92. Crash Bandicoot (3.33)</option>
<option>93. Mortal Kombat (2011) (3.33)</option>
<option>94. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (3.33)</option>
<option>95. Wolfenstein 3D (3.33)</option>
<option>96. Dead Island (3.33)</option>
<option>97. Left 4 Dead (3.33)</option>
<option>98. Nights Into Dreams (3.33)</option>
<option>99. Condemned: Criminal Origins (3.33)</option>
<option>100. Gauntlet Legends (3.28)
<option>101. Gears of War (3.27)</option>
<option>102. Borderlands (3.22)</option>
<option>103. Uncharted: Drake's Fortune (3.22)</option>
<option>104. Duke Nukem 3D (3.2)</option>
<option>105. Darkstalkers (3.2)</option>
<option>106. Quake (3.2)</option>
<option>107. SoulCalibur (3.16)</option>
<option>108. Pac-Man (3.125)</option>
<option>109. Killer Instinct (3.11)</option>
<option>110. Virtua Fighter (3.09)</option>
<option>111. Rock Band (3.09)</option>
<option>112. Earthworm Jim (3.0)</option>
<option>113. Metroid (3.0)</option>
<option>114. Time Crisis (3.0)</option>
<option>115. Tekken (3.0)</option>
<option>116. Halo 2 (3.0)</option>
<option>117. Syphon Filter (3.0)</option>
<option>118. Gex (3.0)</option>
<option>119. Destiny (3.0)</option>
<option>120. The Secret of Monkey Island (3.0)</option>
<option>121. Army of Two (3.0)</option>
<option>122. Sonic Adventure (3.0)</option>
<option>123. Shenmue (3.0)</option>
<option>124. Guitar Hero (2.875)</option>
<option>125. Ecco the Dolphin (2.85)</option>
<option>126. Streets of Rage (2.84)</option>
<option>127. Altered Beast (2.8)</option>
<option>128. Bayonetta (2.75)</option>
<option>129. Command & Conquer (2.75)</option>
<option>130. ToeJam & Earl (2.75)</option>
<option>131. Assassin's Creed (2.71)</option>
<option>132. Gauntlet (2.71)</option>
<option>133. Dead Rising (2.71)</option>
<option>134. Bionic Commando (2.66)</option>
<option>135. Saints Row (2.66)</option>
<option>136. The Sims (2.6)</option>
<option>137. Killer Instinct 2 (2.6)</option>
<option>138. Silent Hill (2.6)</option>
<option>139. Tomb Raider (2.55)</option>
<option>140. Halo: Combat Evolved (2.5)</option>
<option>141. Twisted Metal (2.42)</option
<option>142. Crackdown (2.42)</option>
<option>143. Golden Axe (2.33)</option>
<option>144. Gran Turismo (2.3)</option>
<option>145. The Secret of Mana (2.2)</option>
<option>146. Ghosts n' Goblins (2.14)</option></select>

Oof, a score of 3.66 for Sons of Liberty places it well below the original Metal Gear Solid and its 4.33 average. The first game holds the crown as the best of the bunch...for now.

It's now time for us to ask the bowl for more. It's still loaded with potential goodness and it's ready to share. How about it, boys and girls? What's on tap for this week?

https://i.imgur.com/FBO7p6z.gif

Hmm, back to another franchise. A Nintendo franchise, no less. Well, we already did 3 well-known entries in this series so far, so one more can't hurt, right? Let's go back to the glory days of the Super Nintendo and Hyrule as this week we rate the first 16-bit title of the long-running fantasy franchise. It's The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past! Three other Zelda titles have passed through the ringer and all of them are sitting very pretty. Hell, one of them is a super elite title, claiming the number 3 spot. But does this entry have enough to supersede them all? What do you have say about it? Let's hash it out as we say goodbye to August. Until next week!

[Big Vic]

I played this for the first time in like 2008 and only thought it was ok.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Haven’t played it.

[ClockShot]

I gave it a 4.

This was the first Zelda game I played. My friend had it.

[Emperor Smeat]

5.

Amazing game and in my Top 5 for my favorite games in the series and up there with my favorite games of all-time.

Didn't have a SNES growing up nor did my cousins who owned a SNES had this game so I only got around to playing this game many years later when it was on the Wii's Virtual Console.

Only part of the game I didn't really like involved a boss fight that was on top of a pit with a hole in the floor. Kept getting knocked off the platform or sent into the hole which led to that fight being a dragged out and tedious one since most of my time in battle was just spent trying to get back to the fight area and not actually fighting the boss.

[Destor]

Its the best game ever made

[Lock Jaw]

Easy 5 from me. The music and the gameplay were great.... replayed this game very often as a youngling

[weather vane]

Top 10 game of all time for me. Love it.

[Fignuts]

Easy 5

[Big Vic]

Its the best game ever made

Ooo, I get to say this now:

It's "the best game ever" because you played it when you were 5 and had more time than taste.

[drave]

https://media.tenor.com/kHCSGaj_EDgAAAAC/fucking-ten-billy-bob.gif

[Destor]

Ooo, I get to say this now:

It's "the best game ever" because you played it when you were 5 and had more time than taste.i didnt play it as a kid. I played after i played OoT even. Ive also played it in the last 2 years. Its the best game ever made.

[Destor]

But i respect the jab all the same

[M-A-G]

I mean, I could fire this sucker up via the Switch's virtual console, but I've never had that strong of an urge to dive into the Legend of Zelda series. It looks tremendous from everything I've seen of it and it's almost universally praised, so I'll just have to take everyone's word on it. I'm sure I'd rate it highly, even if I didn't enjoy it personally. It looks great for a 16-bit title and seems intuitive enough.

[Big Vic]

I hate that the ice rod isn't required for anything in the fire and ice temple except the boss so once you get there you are SOL if you don't have it.

[Destor]

I like the game having (3 i think) optional items. i lean toward being a completionist and having all the slots filled out is pretty satisfying.

Plus the ice rod gets you the friendly bee so im here for it.

But to the Trinexx at Turtle Rock i love the idea of hitting a brick wall if you didnt explore enough. "Oh youve just been running through dungeons? get fucked kid." I down with that.

[drave]

That god damn 4th bottle......

[Big Vic]

But to the Trinexx at Turtle Rock i love the idea of hitting a brick wall if you didnt explore enough. "Oh youve just been running through dungeons? get fucked kid." I down with that.

It's not good game design though.

[drave]

It's fine.


The game encourages exploration and even gave you a nice map to do so. It gets figured out. It was not difficult to locate.

[Destor]

I hate this concept that good game design both holds your hand and puts a bow on everything for you. The point of the game is to play it. And thats exactly what kids did with it. They wondered and poked around. Good game design is about being compelling, not a checklist.

[Savio]

Good game design would be to have the ice rod be necessary to complete a room in the dungeon before getting to the boss and just being stuck there.

[Destor]

There's literally no difference between those two things. Its not like the game deletes your save if Trinexx kills you, infact theyd spawn you in the exact same spot

[Destor]

The game rewards you for your curiosity. In a game thats built entirely on puzzles this should be what you want from it

[drave]

Good game design would be to have the ice rod be necessary to complete a room in the dungeon before getting to the boss and just being stuck there.




When you got stuck, was your thought "Welp, guess I'm done!"


or


"Hmm, wonder what I missed?"




If it was the former, perhaps those games are not for you? It should trigger you to think. That was the point.

[drave]

The game rewards you for your curiosity. In a game thats built entirely on puzzles this should be what you want from it




^^^^^^

[Savio]

When you got stuck, was your thought "Welp, guess I'm done!"


or


"Hmm, wonder what I missed?"




If it was the former, perhaps those games are not for you? It should trigger you to think. That was the point.

I didn't get stuck my wife did, I had to sit through the whole knowing that would happen because she doesn't like spoilers.

If it was good game design nintendo would still do it but there's a reason zelda games haven't done that since this one.

[Savio]

The game rewards you for your curiosity. In a game thats built entirely on puzzles this should be what you want from it

They should have made it necessary for a puzzle earlier in the dungeon.

[Destor]

One more time: that changes literally nothing

[Destor]

If you death warp or mirror out you go to the exact same spot. Nothing changes.

[Big Vic]

I don't think you can mirror out of dungeon rooms.One more time: that changes literally nothing

The difference is an "Ice rod check" at 99% dungeon completion or 10% dungeon completion. Which do you think is better?

[drave]

It doesn't matter does it? The end result is still the same.

[drave]

You can use the mirror in any dungeon to be insta ported back to the dungeon entrance.

[Big Vic]

It doesn't matter does it? The end result is still the same.

Retreading isn't fun.

[road doggy dogg]

easiest 5 ever

LTTP is probably the greatest video game ever created

[drave]

Retreading isn't fun.




There are dungeons which require "retreading" due to how some of the puzzles work.




Sounds like Zelda just isn't a game "for you" I guess.

[Destor]

I don't think you can mirror out of dungeon rooms.

The difference is an "Ice rod check" at 99% dungeon completion or 10% dungeon completion. Which do you think is better?
You can mirror at any point. Which means if you are 99% or 0.0000000001% done you are always the same distance from the entrance

[Big Vic]

There are dungeons which require "retreading" due to how some of the puzzles work.

Sounds like Zelda just isn't a game "for you" I guess.

Which dungeons do you have to go through twice?

[Big Vic]

You can mirror at any point. Which means if you are 99% or 0.0000000001% done you are always the same distance from the entrance

I'm pretty sure you can't just mirror back in to the boss fight.

[drave]

I don't think you can mirror out of dungeon rooms.


I'm pretty sure you can't just mirror back in to the boss fight.




:|




I'm pretty sure you can just find the ice rod pretty easily. But maybe not. but maybe.

[Big Vic]

Can you mirror back into a boss fight in LTTP?

No, in The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (LTTP), you cannot use the Magic Mirror to return to a boss fight or any specific room within a dungeon. When you use the Magic Mirror inside a dungeon, you will be transported to the entrance of the dungeon.

If you leave a boss fight by using the Magic Mirror, you will need to make your way back to the boss room by navigating through the dungeon's rooms again. This is why it's essential to be prepared for boss battles and have enough health and items before entering a boss room, as leaving the boss room during the battle is not an option.


Also don't ignore this:

Which dungeons do you have to go through twice?

[drave]

Also don't ignore this:




Not ignoring a thing. Merely the absurdity of your issues being quashed and you just moving to "another issue".


Never stated you could warp back to the boss, it's not a Diablo town portal.



Provide me with your definition of "retreading" and I can ensure you get a sufficient answer. I believe we were discussing walking through the same paths more than once (i.e. warping to the beginning and having to walk through the dungeon again). No one stated that you had to "do a dungeon twice". However, my memory is flawed - a simple Google search can give you what you ask:





Palace of Darkness: You'll need to visit this dungeon twice. Once to rescue the maiden, and then again to defeat the boss, Helmasaur King, and obtain the pendant.
Swamp Palace: After draining the water from the dungeon, you'll need to return to it later to collect the item, the Hookshot.
Misery Mire: You initially enter Misery Mire to rescue the maiden, but you'll have to return to it later to defeat the boss, Vitreous, and retrieve the Crystal.
Turtle Rock: Like Misery Mire, you visit Turtle Rock to rescue a maiden, but you must return to defeat the boss, Trinexx, and get the final Crystal.
Ganon's Tower: You enter Ganon's Tower twice. First, you must navigate through it to reach the top, where you confront Agahnim. Afterward, you return to the tower for the final battle against Ganon.








It matters not what gets proven, you will move on to the next.

[Big Vic]

Those aren't going through the entire dungeon again. It's been ages since I played the game but I do recall the Swamp palace you only pull a switch at first. You don't go through the entire thing.

It's not an absurd issue, there should have been an ice rod check earlier in the dungeon. I don't think you would argue against that... (although you do love to argue so who knows lol)

[drave]

Sorry, didn't have your definition of "retreading" though it wouldn't have mattered.

Do you mean having to traverse through the areas or actually complete everything again each time you enter?


It's not that I love to argue. It really is that this is such a simple concept to understand.

Scenario A (the .001 dungeon completion, the instant you walk in the door)

You enter the dungeon without the item and the game hand holds you to leave the dungeon to go get the item.



Scenario B (the 99% dungeon completion)

You get to the boss and then the game tells you that you need it. Gotta leave the dungeon to go get it.

Senario C (the 99.9999% dungeon completion)

You are fighting the boss and cannot damage the boss. Gotta leave the dungeon to go get it.


Nothing changes. This is the kind of game that Zelda was, is and always will be.

This is the way a TON of games in the era (and times before) also were. Metal Gear on NES had some of the most ridiculous puzzles, and they didn't feed you a god damn bread crumb in most instances.

[drave]

. I don't think you would argue against that... (although you do love to argue so who knows lol)

Know what I did? I had acquired the Ice Rod prior to arriving to the dungeon by exploring.


In a game like Zelda, the game should not hold your hand in any way. Fuck's sake, the NES Zelda was far and away more difficult, and they only gave you a map.

[Big Vic]

No ones talking about hand holding, I'm talking about having some puzzles involve the ice rod just like there are puzzles that require the fire rod to get through.

[drave]

You shouldn't play Zelda.

[Big Vic]

There should be less puzzles in Zelda games? Ok.

[Big Vic]

Games from our childhood aren't perfect, each game has a few flaws that can be pointed out.

[drave]

There should be less puzzles in Zelda games? Ok.


No, but if you're gonna cry about it, don't play it.



Games from our childhood aren't perfect, each game has a few flaws that can be pointed out.




I agree, there are many flaws. However, this is not that case. It's a game that encourages (and earlier titles literally REQUIRE) exploration. Even through sheer dumb luck of bombing things that look bombable, you'll find the Ice Rod.


It would be bad design / flaw if there was some super secret squirrel shit that the player could never, ever figure out from in-game systems.

[Destor]

Vic you dont have a critique you have a nitpick

[Big Vic]

I agree you could call it a nit pick but it is just one of the issues I have with the game. I thought the story was duller than other Zelda games. And I think item progression usage is stronger in other games. Getting the rock feather in LA felt good and combining it with the Pegasus boots felt great.

Getting a hammer in LTTP to get past one tile doesn't feel great
And the ice rods only purpose being the boss fight isn't good. No reason you can't have any Ice Rod puzzles.

It would have been like if the Ice arrows were necessary to beat bongo bongo in OoT and useless everywhere else (like they are now).

Now granted I played this in 2008~ and my wife played it in 2020. It doesn't match up to the newer Zelda games and it shouldn't because Zelda has evolved leaps and bounds since then. No, but if you're gonna cry about it, don't play it.
Uh M-A-G forces us to review his game selections that's why we're all here.

[M-A-G]

Ultimately, I think what this comes down to is Big Vic's rating isn't solely because of one problem he had with the design. It's just one that he felt could've been addressed better. drave and Destor didn't find it as big of a deal, and on top of that, they were blown away by the remainder of the game. That's what I'm getting from this, is that fair to say?

[Savio]

You also force us at gun point to give these ratings.

[M-A-G]

I suppose I am the evil overlord of the video game forum.

[M-A-G]

Look at what I've wrought...poster pitted against poster. :(

[Destor]

I like that we can all come together and agree that MAG is the real problem

[Helmsphere]

Only Zelda game I put time into.

I loved it but never finished it.

[Destor]

I bet if the ice rod had been in a better spot youd still be playing it to this day

[Helmsphere]

No time, too many Anime Tiddies

[Savio]

"Hentai Project" for switch 5/5