DISCUSSION - Do fans want to cheer "The Heel" in today's wrestling era?

[Heyman]

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DISCUSSION - Do fans want to cheer "The Heel" in today's wrestling era?

In the early 90's, it was all about cheering the "good guy". We had our Hulk Hogan's, Randy Savage's, Ultimate Warrior's, and Bret Hart's.

In the late 90's/early 2000's, the fans wanted to cheer the "cocky and charismatic" guy. The fans also cheered guys who had ATTITUDES and rebelled against their bosses. This is why guys like Steve Austin, The Rock, Chris Jericho, Undertaker, etc. were so popular.


Fast forward to the 'current' era (I'd argue from Wrestlemania-17 onwards).


-Think about Austin during the 'alliance' angle.

-Think about when Triple H returned in January 2002 (or why the fans cheered him so loudly when he came back).

-Think about The Rock when he came back as a "Hollywood Heel" in year 2003 (and how he got more cheers than Goldberg in his last match)

-Think about Kurt Angle between Survivor Series 2001 and Wrestlemania 2003 (and the reception Angle received when he came back from injury).

-Think about Chris Jericho's heel run from last year.

-Think about John Cena dissing the fans with his 'rap' gimmick.

-Think about Eddie and Chavo Guerrero as 'lying, cheating, and stealking' heels.

-Think about Brock Lesnar at Summerslam 2002 (and the events leading up to that).......as a heel.

-Think about Randy Orton.


In most of these cases, wouldn't you agree that the fans WANTED to cheer each of these guys?

In most of these cases, wouldn't you agree that the fans would've ULTIMATELY cheered them anyways? (even if the aformentioned wrestlers acted the exact same way).


I guess what I'm trying to say, is why wreck a good thing?

If you're going to turn a wrestler FACE, why make him "act differently"? ESPECIALLY - in this current era where the fans ARGUABLY want to REACT LOUDLY towards bonafide ASS</>HOLES.


Maybe it's just me, but I honestly believe that The Rock, Austin, Angle, Lesnar, Eddie Guerrero, Triple H, Jericho, etc. were all better off ACTING as heels (remember - "acting" as heels).


You want to know what I think? Here's my hypothesis:


If 90-95% of the roster purposely acted like heels (towards other wrestlers AND the fans), the fans would still cheer LOUDLY for atleast 25-30% of these wrestlers (in support!).

For example - if a heel John Cena came out and cut a KILLER rap (and dissed the fans), I'm pretty sure that the fans would cheer loudly for a guy like Cena if he was fighting a guy like Renee Dupree.



-I would be interested to see what the WWE would be like if 90-95% of the characters acted like HEELS (or were BLATANT heels, but got cheered by the fans anyways).

-I would argue that the TRULY gifted speaker on the mic, is BETTER on the mic as a heel (think about HBK, Triple H, The Rock, Jericho, Austin, Angle, etc.).

-I would argue that a TRULY malicious ASSHOLE (i.e. like The Rock during his Corporate Days, like Austin in 1996, etc. could DRAW just as much as any top face out there).




My Conclusion?: Let Faces (who were previously successful heels) act the EXACT same way. Let them keep ripping on the fans. The fans will still cheer!

-Guys like Cena and Guerrero are still popular today, but their characters were MUCH more dynamic as heels (atleast from my Point of view).

-Why else would guys like Angle and Triple H bomb as faces?

-Why did the fans start cheering so loudly for The Rock when he fought Goldberg?

-Why did the fans love Austin during his heel run? (and yet when he turned face after Survivor Series 2001, the fans didn't like his "old" gimmick as much).

-Why were Edge and Christian so popular as a tag team?

[MVP]

Today it is a rarity to identify a wrestler who's better as a face than he is a heel. It's as if the fans have evolved to love the guys who continuously break all the rules, act cocky, and insult the fans themselves, and it's because there aren't many decent faces. Most of the faces hardly speak on the mic, and the ones that do aren't charismatic (HBK, Benoit, etc.). Even John Cena, a premier mic star, has grown stale.

Let's face it, the all-star hero is out, and the cool-cocky rule breaker is in.

[Heyman]

Let's face it, the all-star hero is out, and the cool-cocky rule breaker is in.

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Exactly. :y:

The question is, what should the WWE do about it?

Since Survivor Series 2001, I can't think of how many instances where the WWE has "changed someone's character" just because of a face turn.

-When Kane turned face, he started caring about his "Kanenites" (and started acting like a cock sucker).

-Austin became boring after Survivor Series 2001 (and went back to his old music, sucking up to the fans, etc.).

-Kurt Angle started acting "out of character" when he turned face

-Brock Lesnar no longer became an unstoppable monster when he first turned face (i.e. he jobbed to Big Show, and looked "vulnerable").

-Triple H started looking 'vulnerable' when he first came back in 2002. He was also made to act 'differently' than he had in the past.


:wtf:

I think the absolute WORST cases that we are seeing right now, involve

-John Cena
-Victoria

Why is John Cena acting like a "white" Will Smith? Did anyone else find his promo with Booker T last Thursday to be COMPLETELY *unfunny*?

What's with Victoria's excessive smiling and gay dance routine now? Why did she change her music?


If the wheel ain't broke, why fix it?

Edge is a face now. Does this mean that he can no longer be funny and cocky? (like he was during the old E&C tag team days).



If EVERYONE in the WWE acted like a heel, the fans would STILL cheer a sizeable potion of wrestlers.

[MVP]

If EVERYONE in the WWE acted like a heel, the fans would STILL cheer a sizeable potion of wrestlers.I agree. :yes:

Faces can be just as cool-cocky as heels, especially today. Chris Jericho is a perfect example because he never goes out of character whether he's a face or a heel, and even casual fans know that from listening to him completely trash someone on the mic.

Unfortunately he's the only face that comes to my mind that's never changed. It's too bad that Edge can't go back to his cocky persona from 2000 when he was with Christian. At least he'd have some charisma to compensate for his lousy wrestling.

[Joe Kerr]

Most of the faces hardly speak on the mic, and the ones that do aren't charismatic (HBK, Benoit, etc.)



I disagree one of the most charismatic faces on the mic has been HBK begining after the Rockers split up through the Degeneration-X era.

[Anybody Thrilla]

These are all very good points, but if the WWE actually tried to market their product with their premier superstars portrayed as rule breakers, cocky bastards, and loudmouths, I think it would only be a matter of time before different groups would be breathing down their necks (F.C.C., Mothers Against Fake Fighting, whoever the fu</>ck).

While it is obviously clear that the fans want to cheer the heels, I honestly think it's just a business move to cover their own asses to continue playing faces as super nice dillholes. It's hard enough to defend a product as 'questionable' as the WWE without being overt about what you're doing, though it is obviously in fact what you're doing. I hope that makes sense, I'm floating here.

So yeah, I think that you're right, and I think that the WWE knows that. Ultimately, doesn't it seem like the heels get more airtime anyway? Or is that just me? However, they have to keep somewhat of a 'clean' image just so they don't catch sh</>it from all of the footwashers...

...or maybe I'm looking too far into it. Anybody agree?

[MVP]

I disagree one of the most charismatic faces on the mic has been HBK begining after the Rockers split up through the Degeneration-X era.I agree, HBK was one of the best faces for drawing pops from his singles turn, to the DX era.

I was talking about HBK at the present moment.

[MVP]

These are all very good points, but if the WWE actually tried to market their product with their premier superstars portrayed as rule breakers, cocky bastards, and loudmouths, I think it would only be a matter of time before different groups would be breathing down their necks (F.C.C., Mothers Against Fake Fighting, whoever the fu</>ck).

...or maybe I'm looking too far into it. Anybody agree?I don't see that happening.

WWE wouldn't get any more problems than it already has now with it's product in terms of censorship and risque behavior if more faces began to act like heels. WWE is going to be caught up in a lot of of that in the next few months after Bradshaw's intelligent heat generator in Germany.

It would be an entertainment-friendly move because the casual fans aren't interested in just wrestling, they love it when someone completely slams someone else on the mic, it's human nautre. It's not like WWE is going to be inducing Nazi or Imperialist influence anymore.

I don't see why only the heels should be restricted to doing that because it's obvious the faces can't draw huge pops anymore except in the ring.

[Shaggy]

I know that I go for the heels. I used to go for the faces in the past but it seemed like everyone else was doing. So to be different from everyone else I started rooting for the heels. First off I did it as a joke and didnt mean any of it but after a while I started going for all the bad guys and realized how much I liked them better than the faces. Now I vote for heels and actually mean it. There are always little arguments going on in my house about how I go for Orton and my little bro goes for HBK, When they fight we take it like it is something. But im wondering off the subject now.

I guess what im trying to say is that yes fans might want to cheer for the heels just because they are alot better and into there character then most faces.

[.44 Magdalene]

It's funny, because I was having this exact same conversation the other day...except about comic books.

Readers don't want the overbuilt, iron jawed boyscout of yore who helps old ladies across the street and fights with a sense of unwavering justice but sympathetic mercy. No, readers want the cocky, cigarette-smoking, half-shaven hero who curses, gets thrown out of bars and does what he does for purely personal reasons. He's not trying to make the world a better place. He just happens to be fighting evil because evil is what's getting in his way. Yeah, the clef-chinned spandex-wearing hero of the olden days might beat him in a fight, but it doesn't matter--it's the confident renegade who's going to be getting the girl when it's all over.

We need "heels" like this. Heels the fans are behind, who end up facing other heels that the fans DON'T like. An anti-face, you might say. Cena v Dupree is a great example of this. If Cena were a heel, it would be gold--Cena's not fighting Dupree because it's the right thing to do. He's fighting Dupree because Dupree is pissing him off. It'd be pure coincidence that Dupree just happened to be a heel.

It could totally work, if the WWE would start bringing it back. I don't get Smackdown!, but right now, the only heel I see like this on RAW is Randy Orton...and he's not all that over. They need a more popular wrestler to be taking up the anti-face role...I believe it's been said that Kane could do this sorta thing. Make him a heel, but make him a heel who kicks ass and takes names whenever he feels like it. It'd be the Early Goldberg effect. Fans would love him just because he's kicking so much ass, even if he's being a creepy jerk off about it. On Smackdown!, it hardly needs to be said who could fill the Anti-Face Boots: R...V...D. 'Nuff said? 'Nuff said.

Genius observation, and a rep for you. I'm done ranting.

[The CyNick]

But they have had heel babyfaces since the Attitude Era started. The whole USA vs America was based on that idea, Austin was getting cheered for cheating, while Bret was getting cheered for being a "good" guy (and then whining about it).

I think since then almsot all the top faces have had a heel edge to them. Austin would flip everyone off, Rock would talk trash to everyone, and even now Eddie still cheats in his matches and gets huge pos for it.

However, when a guy turns face he has to change a lot of things about how he works and how he cuts promos, otherwise it just wont work.

A lot of people are down on Cena, but I think his edge was taken off by the company in the wake of the Janet Jackson stuff because of the crackdown by the FCC. Thats something the WWE cant geta round, if they want to be on Network TV (or even Cable for that matter), they have to play by the rules. The other thing with Cena is that he's really really over, its hard to go say "Cena isn't working", when he's pretty much the most over guy in the comapny.

But aside from that, I dont see too many babyfaces who act like say Hogan did back int he 80s. Everyone talks trash, everyone is willing to use a weapon to lay a beating, and so on. Short of insulting the fans (which would make them heels) I dont see what else they could do. And no, you cant have faces insult the crowd, because they wont get over as babyfaces. People used to pop for Rock when he was ripping on the crowd, but they would pop much larger for Austin to come out and whoop his ass.

In terms of HHH, he fell victim to bad booking and Hulkamania 2002, that loss at Backlash after all the hype surrounding the return really killed him.

Rock was cheered over Goldberg because some WWE fans, especially in the North East tend to see Goldberg as an outsider and Rock as a "WWE" guy, so thats why he was cheered. Plus, they totally changed Goldberg's character, and I think that kinda killed any chance of Goldberg getting face pops.

Austin was over as a comedy figure (which is why he didn't draw well as a heel champion) and nobody took him seriously. There's a difference between being "over" (ie drawing money) and being able to pop the crowd doing comedy. Jerry Seinfeld could come in to a WWE show and make the corwd laugh, but I dont think that means he can healdine Wrestlemania and do 800,000 buys.

E+C were entertaining as well, but people still liked to see them get their asses kicked. And even when they were faces they had to drop the comedy schtick because as Ive said many time, comedy doesn't draw, especially at the top.

Finally, while people like to remember Austin and Rock being great as heels (and theyw ere), they drew far more money as babyfaces. Rock's return as a heel co-headlined a poor drawing Wrestlemania (XIX) and Austin's heel turn sparked the beginning of the decline in wrestling popularity. So even though those guys were entertaining as heels, the fans obviously prefered them as faces.

Interesting topic though.