Should Bret have lost @ Survivor Series?

[Aussie Skier]

Just curious as to ppl's thoughts.

I thought that he should have jobbed to be honest

[Loose Cannon]

Well, I guess that would have been the right thing to do since he was going to WCW. But fk Michales back then. Micahels never wanted to job the Title to Bret before that so what goes around comes around. He was willing to job it on Raw the next night anyway.

[Champion of Europa]

Yes. He was supposed to do his job (which meant he was supposed to lose that particular night) and refused. With Vince having lost other talent to WCW, one in particular bringing their belt along, Vince did what he had to do.

[FourFifty]

It's nothing personal, it's Vince doing what was good for the company. The WWF title really would of lost a lot of respect if Bradshaw wins it, I mean if Bret wouldn't of lost. Bret didn't want to lose, so, ego check from hell.
Vince 3:16.

[Loose Cannon]

WTF? Vince did what he had to do my ass. Bret was a man of morals and he stayed with the WWF through thick and thin. He would of NEVER broght that title to WCW with him. And Vince gave Bret creative control, so it's Vince's fault that Bret had a say in the decisions. There is no way in justifying what Vince did. He lied straight to Bret's face, on more then one occasions if I may say.

[Kane Knight]

Honestly, yes, it's the method by which it was enacted that most people have a problem with.

[Loose Cannon]

It's nothing personal, it's Vince doing what was good for the company. The WWF title really would of lost a lot of respect if Bradshaw wins it, I mean if Bret wouldn't of lost. Bret didn't want to lose, so, ego check from hell.
Vince 3:16.

Yeah and what about Michaels refusing to do jobs left and right when he had the belt. What about Bret Hart never refusing to do jobs at all before that. Bret was a true professional and when he had to put somebody over, he put him over. Shawn Michales was an asshole.

[Joe Kerr]

When you sign a contract you know that you are not in control of your character and the titles, unless your initials are HHH. Bret was told that he was to be defeated and he refused. This would be like If benoit decided he was going to TNA-NWA but refused to lose the title to Kane at Bad Blood.

[FourFifty]

Yeah and what about Michaels refusing to do jobs left and right when he had the belt. What about Bret Hart never refusing to do jobs at all before that. Bret was a true professional and when he had to put somebody over, he put him over. Shawn Michales was an asshole.

<font color=cyan>But I don't recall HBK wanting to leave the company when he had the title. Bret wanted to leave without losing the title. That would have been a serious blow to the company when WCW could promote "The Man Who Never Lost The WWF Title" on their roster.
I'm not saying what Vince did was right.
I'm saying it was good for the company.</font color>

[Funky Fly]

When you sign a contract you know that you are not in control of your character and the titles, unless your initials are HHH. Bret was told that he was to be defeated and he refused. This would be like If benoit decided he was going to TNA-NWA but refused to lose the title to Kane at Bad Blood.
Bret had Creative Control. He didn't have to job. He just opted not to since Michaels was being a dick as always.

BTW, is there a time that Michaels ever jobbed to Bret? Every match I remember involving them ended with Shawn winning.

[Head]

Yeah and what about Michaels refusing to do jobs left and right when he had the belt. What about Bret Hart never refusing to do jobs at all before that. Bret was a true professional and when he had to put somebody over, he put him over. Shawn Michales was an asshole.
That's just proving that HBK was an asshole, this is about Bret. Also, HBK at no point was leaving the company, so it was a completly diffrent situation.

Am I saying I agree with what Vince did? No. I think Bret should have done the job, but I don't think after everything Bret did for him that Vince should have under any circumstance do what he did.

I think they're both at fault.

[Loose Cannon]

But I don't recall HBK wanting to leave the company when he had the title. Bret wanted to leave without losing the title. That would have been a serious blow to the company when they had "The Man Who Never Lost The WWF Title" on their roster.
I'm not saying what Vince did was right.
I'm saying it was good for the company.

No, he didn't want to leave the company without losing the title. He was willing to job it the next night on Raw. And Bret HAD CREATIVE CONTROL for the last 30 days of his contract, so he had every right to refuse the job. Like I said, stupid move on Vince's part. And How many times had HBK forfeited the title back then? How many times did Shawn get out of jobbing the title? HBK may have never wanted to leave the company, but he sure did never want to ever lose a fk'n match for chrit's sake.

[Aussie Skier]

Yeah and what about Michaels refusing to do jobs left and right when he had the belt. What about Bret Hart never refusing to do jobs at all before that. Bret was a true professional and when he had to put somebody over, he put him over. Shawn Michales was an asshole.

2 wrongs dont make a right.
Just cos Shawn didnt want to put Bret over, doesnt mean Bret shouldnt put Shawn over either

[Loose Cannon]

Bret had Creative Control. He didn't have to job. He just opted not to since Michaels was being a dick as always.

BTW, is there a time that Michaels ever jobbed to Bret? Every match I remember involving them ended with Shawn winning.

THANK YOU FUNKY

[Loose Cannon]

2 wrongs dont make a right.
Just cos Shawn didnt want to put Bret over, doesnt mean Bret shouldnt put Shawn over either

Not just Bret though. Just about everyone he was suppossed to job a title too. Bret was willing to put anyone over at anytime. Bret put Shawn over so many god dam times before, so don't give me that.

[Zen v.W.o.]

<font color=cyan>But I don't recall HBK wanting to leave the company when he had the title. Bret wanted to leave without losing the title. That would have been a serious blow to the company when WCW could promote "The Man Who Never Lost The WWF Title" on their roster.
I'm not saying what Vince did was right.
I'm saying it was good for the company.</font color>

...

Get your facts straight. I hate having to go through this all the time. Bret never wanted to leave!! He even declined wcw's initial offer a year earlier..for a ton of cash!! He chose loyalty instead. He asked vince what he could do to stay, but vince kept insisting he could not afford him.

Bret wanted to drop it to austin, or taker, and the title would have held just as much meaning as when he had it. HBK was an asshole like loose cannon has stated.

And creative control..bret had that. This means not one of them can do something with which the other does not agree to. It was vince's idea to include this. So it's his damn fault. But the thing is, vince went along with it..he lied to bret saying "ok, we'll have both stables do a run-in during the match." He lied to his face, so he could get out of a deal he inked with bret. That is what pisses everyone off, including the wrestlers like foley and taker etc.
Vince totally was in the wrong, and nothing he did was right.
He comes up with a cop-out, worrying bret would leave with his title and maybe trash it on wcw programming. That's pure BS! Bret grew up in the business...he respected the business. His father would practically disown him for doing a stunt like that. No, sorry, I dont buy that line from vince.

Bret never deserved that ending. And it's a shame I had to witness it live.

[Kane Knight]

When you sign a contract you know that you are not in control of your character and the titles, unless your initials are HHH. Bret was told that he was to be defeated and he refused. This would be like If benoit decided he was going to TNA-NWA but refused to lose the title to Kane at Bad Blood.
Except it really is a moot point when you're given creative control.

When someone tells you to do something, your job gives you the right to say no, you do so, they agree, and you're still forced to do it in the end, that's totally different.

[FourFifty]

No, he didn't want to leave the company without losing the title. He was willing to job it the next night on Raw. And Bret HAD CREATIVE CONTROL for the last 30 days of his contract, so he had every right to refuse the job. Like I said, stupid move on Vince's part. And How many times had HBK forfeited the title back then? How many times did Shawn get out of jobbing the title? HBK may have never wanted to leave the company, but he sure did never want to ever lose a fk'n match for chrit's sake.

<font color=cyan>
Bret and his creative control... "Oh, I don't want to Job in my home town... Boo-Hoo:'( "
No, it wasn't his home town. It was in Montreal. That's like Hulk Hogan not wanting to drop the title to someone in front of his home town when he's at MSG.
Yeah, HBK forfeited the title many times, but my question is, since I didn't have the internet in '97 and before that, how many times did he really hurt himself? Every consider some of this is legit? Not every bump is real, but how many were fake? I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but please, give me numbers to prove he ducked out of jobbing the title every time.</font color>

[Funky Fly]

<font color=cyan>
Bret and his creative control... "Oh, I don't want to Job in my home town... Boo-Hoo:'( "
No, it wasn't his home town. It was in Montreal. That's like Hulk Hogan not wanting to drop the title to someone in front of his home town when he's at MSG.
Yeah, HBK forfeited the title many times, but my question is, since I didn't have the internet in '97 and before that, how many times did he really hurt himself? Every consider some of this is legit? Not every bump is real, but how many were fake? I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but please, give me numbers to prove he ducked out of jobbing the title every time.</font color>
HBK I don't recall HBK ever foreiting due to legit injury.

It's always because he's being a whiny bitch and pissing everyone off. Didn't he even quit (not just foreit, I mean QUIT) over having to job the IC Title, thus leading to that "Razor Ramon isn't the real champ" deal?

[Loose Cannon]

You must be a HUGE HUGE HBK mark. I need Rob Harvey in here. He'll give you a better explanation. HBK jobbed the IC Title once, too Jannetty, which was a very short reign anyway. Michales wasn't a real di** yet though. He won the title twice more and didn't job it to anyone. He was stripped of it once, then forfeited it the next time. Michales won the World TITLE at Wrestlemania 12, he jobbed it to Sid sometime after, but he knew he would be getting it back, which he did at Royal Rumble 97. Then Michales was suppossed to lose the Title to Bret at Mania 13, but he pulled out because of a "KNEE INJURY" On Bret's shoot interview he says a lot of the boys thought the injury was a bunch of bull because Michales came back in no time. Bret was willing to drop the Title back to Michaels if Bret would of won at Mania, but HBK didn't want to lose to anyone by this point. Then Bret won the title at Summerslam (where HBK was still in the main event) and HBK won it back at Survivor Series.

[Funky Fly]

You must be a HUGE HUGE HBK mark. I need Rob Harvey in here. He'll give you a better explanation. HBK jobbed the IC Title once, too Jannetty, which was a very short reign anyway. Michales wasn't a real di** yet though. He won the title twice more and didn't job it to anyone. He was stripped of it once, then forfeited it the next time. Michales won the World TITLE at Wrestlemania 12, he jobbed it to Sid sometime after, but he knew he would be getting it back, which he did at Royal Rumble 97. Then Michales was suppossed to lose the Title to Bret at Mania 13, but he pulled out because of a "KNEE INJURY" On Bret's shoot interview he says a lot of the boys thought the injury was a bunch of bull because Michales came back in no time. Bret was willing to drop the Title back to Michaels if Bret would of won at Mania, but HBK didn't want to lose to anyone by this point. Then Bret won the title at Summerslam (where HBK was still in the main event) and HBK won it back at Survivor Series.
Exactly, no legit injuries involved.

And would someone answer my original question? Has Bret EVER beaten Michaels at all?

[Innovator]

Survivor Series 92

[Loose Cannon]

Survivor Series 92

BEFORE HBK WAS A DI** AND BRET WAS THE WORLD CHAMP. Why would Michales beat him then as the IC Champion. Michaels wasn't a legit contender yet.

[Batsu]

Basically HBK was HHH-ing it back then.

The technical parts of this (Bret having creative control, etc) have already been established; no need to repeat them. I don't see why Vince and WWE had to rush the dropping of the belt if Bret was gonna willingly do the right thing and drop it the next night on Raw.

This could have just been another Backlund --> Hogan via Iron Sheik, or Austin ---> HHH via Mankind. But they rushed it.

This was just a poor move on WWE's part. I don't believe in any way that Bret was going to go to WCW with a WWE belt. That just goes against everything in his track record.

[Loose Cannon]

Survivor Series 92

Yeah, I like to watch that match over and over and over and watch Michales tap out in the Sharpshooter.

[John la Rock]

Shawn Michaels is the biggest asshole in professional wrestling. He faked an injury to get out of losing the title to Bret at Wrestlemania 13 and forfeited the title every oppurtunity he could.

I don't buy any of this new religious crap that he is now. Once an asshole always an asshole

[Funky Fly]

Yeah, I like to watch that match over and over and over and watch Michales tap out in the Sharpshooter.
Gotta get that match. :eek: :drool:

[Kane Knight]

I don't buy any of this new religious crap that he is now. Once an asshole always an asshole
Well, saying you've found God doesn't automatically make you a better person. People can change, but Michaels is paying lip service to the concept of God and to change in general.

[FourFifty]

<font color=cyan>Okay, here are my final thoughts on the Bret Hart Screw Job thingie for the night…

First and foremost I’m not going to defend Vince in any way. Giving anyone creative control is a gamble, and it didn’t pay off. It made Vince look like an asshole, and on a personal note Vince deserved that punch from Bret Hart.
BUT
Bret should have known that he was there to do a job (I swear to God, no pun intended). He didn’t want to lose the title in front of his “home town.” And this thread has a lot of “Well HBK didn’t want to job!” How many champions WANT to lose the title? At that point in time the WWF Heavyweight Title meant that you were the very best in the industry. It was what every single wrestler wanted to do and wanted to be. It was the title that took legends such as Randy Savage, The Warrior, Hulk Hogan, Andre The Giant, “Nature Boy” Buddy Rogers, The Undertaker, and more from mere legends to immortals, and today it’s still doing it with Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, HHH, hopefully Kurt Angle and Eddie in the future… Name one champion in their right mind that would want to lose that status.
See? Now don’t bit</I>ch about how HBK didn’t want to lose the title.
In speaking of HBK not losing the title do to various “injuries” I’ve yet to hear of HBK having creative control yet, so I’m going to assume that Vince didn’t want HBK to lose it fairly, or saw potential for HBK and didn’t want to piss him off… The potential to one day grab the torch, run with it, and help get a group of wrestlers over to start a nation wide craze based on the idea of being anti-authority while telling people to suck it. Don’t blame HBK for not losing the title; he didn’t have creative control.
Vince was an asshole, he did deserve to get knocked out by Bret.
Bret was being too defensive. I’m not going to say, “he wasn’t a team player” because Bret bent over backwards for that company… but I will say his ego got the best of him.
Unless you give me proof I’m going to believe that HBK had nothing to do with the screwjob.
All in all both Bret and Vince were wrong, but Bret should have done the job cleanly, yet Vince messed up when he gave Bret creative control.







<font size=1>and on a side nore SS '92 was a damn good match
</font size></font color>

[John la Rock]

but HBK didn't have to lie to Bret and everyone else when he said that he didn't know anything about the Screwjob

[Mr. Nerfect]

Bret should have jobbed, bt refused. Vince didn't feel as if someone leaving for another company should have a say over what they can do and what they can't. Vince shouldn't have did what he did, but Bret wasn't in the right either.

[Funky Fly]

Bret didn't want to leave the WWF. The only thing he did wrong, IMO, was not breaking his other hand on Shawn's jaw after he was done with Vince.

Shawn Michaels always got out of doing jobs, despite not having creative control. In other words, he purposely avoided doing his job. Let's say you work in an office, and you decide "fuck it, I'm not coming in to work today and I'm not even gonna bother calling in sick." and some how, your boss doesn't fire your ass. In fact, he bends over backwards to accomodate you. Now, your co-worker, Bret, decides to use one of his vacation days to take a day off (which shoulb be perfectly fine), but when he get's back the next day, his boss fires his ass on the spot and has security escort him from the building. Does that sound right to you?

[LK]

I am not sure about this but to begin with I heard sometime in the past that Bret refused to job to Nash. I think that what Vince did was wrong and he did deserve the punch from Bret. However I think Vince did what he did because he was scared of taking another persons word like he did with Nash, Hall and Luger who all gave Vince verbal committment but then went and signed for WCW. Do I think that Bret would have taken the WWE title to WCW? Probably not but I don't think Vince thought that he could afford to take the chance.

As far as I'm concerned Bret should have done the job to Michaels like Michaels should have done the job to Bret in the past.

To sum up what Vince did was wrong but Bret was the completly innocent party in all of this. If he done his job none of this would have happened.

[Shaggy]

Since The Hitman would of been leaving for WCW the best thing he could of done was lose. Since they were in Canada it would of been great for him to win and hand over the title the next night but that isnt good.

Even though I am not a fan of what Vince did. I would have to say it was one of the smartest things that he did. Sure the fans hated him for it but look at it this way. Its been all this time already and yet no one has forgotten about. Vince did something that will be remembered for a long time and I think that it put a message out to the superstars that Vince can just screw you over at any minute.

[Pepsi Man]

Should Bret have jobbed? Hell yes. It would've made perfect sense.

However, on the whole issue, Vince was completely in the wrong. I don't say he was wrong for forcing Bret to do the job, but he was wrong for pretending he was going to give Bret what he wanted, then going out there and pulling that shit. After over a decade in the company, the least Bret was owed was honesty from his employer.

[Wondermouse]

RAW the next day was in Canada as well.

[Savio]

But if that didn't happen we wouldn't have this great discussion.

[Kane Knight]

Should Bret have jobbed? Hell yes. It would've made perfect sense.

However, on the whole issue, Vince was completely in the wrong. I don't say he was wrong for forcing Bret to do the job, but he was wrong for pretending he was going to give Bret what he wanted, then going out there and pulling that shit. After over a decade in the company, the least Bret was owed was honesty from his employer.
Ironically, when the WWE was bitching about Austin leaving, Vince and JR were going on about the fact that Steve said he'd be there after they "supposedly" worked things out, and he bailed anyways.

Well, tough shit, guys. After something like the "Montreal Screwjob," you've set a major precedent of distrust.

[Pepsi Man]

Ironically, when the WWE was bitching about Austin leaving, Vince and JR were going on about the fact that Steve said he'd be there after they "supposedly" worked things out, and he bailed anyways.

Well, tough shit, guys. After something like the "Montreal Screwjob," you've set a major precedent of distrust.
Come to think of it, that's a very valid point. I never even took that into consideration when Austin left...

[Pepsi Man]

<font color=cyan>Okay, here are my final thoughts on the Bret Hart Screw Job thingie for the night…

First and foremost I’m not going to defend Vince in any way. Giving anyone creative control is a gamble, and it didn’t pay off. It made Vince look like an asshole, and on a personal note Vince deserved that punch from Bret Hart.
BUT
Bret should have known that he was there to do a job (I swear to God, no pun intended). He didn’t want to lose the title in front of his “home town.” And this thread has a lot of “Well HBK didn’t want to job!” How many champions WANT to lose the title? At that point in time the WWF Heavyweight Title meant that you were the very best in the industry. It was what every single wrestler wanted to do and wanted to be. It was the title that took legends such as Randy Savage, The Warrior, Hulk Hogan, Andre The Giant, “Nature Boy” Buddy Rogers, The Undertaker, and more from mere legends to immortals, and today it’s still doing it with Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, HHH, hopefully Kurt Angle and Eddie in the future… Name one champion in their right mind that would want to lose that status.
See? Now don’t bit</I>ch about how HBK didn’t want to lose the title.
In speaking of HBK not losing the title do to various “injuries” I’ve yet to hear of HBK having creative control yet, so I’m going to assume that Vince didn’t want HBK to lose it fairly, or saw potential for HBK and didn’t want to piss him off… The potential to one day grab the torch, run with it, and help get a group of wrestlers over to start a nation wide craze based on the idea of being anti-authority while telling people to suck it. Don’t blame HBK for not losing the title; he didn’t have creative control.
Vince was an asshole, he did deserve to get knocked out by Bret.
Bret was being too defensive. I’m not going to say, “he wasn’t a team player” because Bret bent over backwards for that company… but I will say his ego got the best of him.
Unless you give me proof I’m going to believe that HBK had nothing to do with the screwjob.
All in all both Bret and Vince were wrong, but Bret should have done the job cleanly, yet Vince messed up when he gave Bret creative control.







<font size=1>and on a side nore SS '92 was a damn good match
</font size></font color>
Oh, just read this post...

Frankly, if Michaels coming on WWE Confidential in 2002 and blatantly admitting that he was in on the screwjob isn't enough proof, I don't know what is.

[Kane Knight]

Come to think of it, that's a very valid point. I never even took that into consideration when Austin left...
It's something that just clicked in this thread.

[Kane Knight]

Oh, just read this post...

Frankly, if Michaels coming on WWE Confidential in 2002 and blatantly admitting that he was in on the screwjob isn't enough proof, I don't know what is.
Not to mention how easily Shawn managed to get his way without creative control, making the point moot.

[LK]

Like Shaggy said this ended up being the best thing that could have ever happened for Vince. He was able to take what happened to Bret and use it to become the biggest heel in wrestling. Therefore he went on to have the mass feud with Austin and this turned things around and WWE began winning the ratings war and they never looked back meanwhile Bret was doing nothing in WCW. I'm not saying that I agree with what happpened, I'm just raising the point of how this benefited VInce much more than Bret. Vince was wrong for decieving Bret and making him think that they would go ahead with the plan that Bret had thought of. But Bret should have done the job.

[The One]

Bret SHOULD have dropped the title...

Vince SHOULD have told Bret to drop the title instead of lie...

In my estimation...they both fuc</>ked up...and while alot of people would like to blame Shawn, he did was Vince told him to do...kind of like what Bret should have done too :shifty:

Now I am not saying Michaels is a saint and deserves to be praised for his actions, he could have told Bret the skinny on what was going down, but I think it was more an issue of Bret Hart and Vince McMahon battle an ego war...and they BOTH are to blame...

[LK]

The One is right. The whole thing is more of a conflict between Vince and Bret than between Bret and Shawn. I would also like to make the point that HBK just did what the man who made him a star asked him to do, Bret Hart did not. Like The One says Bret and Vince both f***ed up big time.

[John la Rock]

Bret would have jobbed to anyone other than HBK cause of all the shit that happened at WM 13.

As Funky said, Bret should have K0'd Michaels as well

[Kane Knight]

In my estimation...they both fucked up...and while alot of people would like to blame Shawn, he did was Vince told him to do...kind of like what Bret should have done too :shifty:
Yeah, so all those times he didn't do his jkob, this time he conveniently does it, and he's not to blame.

yeah, I know you saaid he's not a saint, blah blah blah.

[Loose Cannon]

The One is right. I would also like to make the point that HBK just did what the man who made him a star asked him to do, Bret Hart did not.

WTF? You can't be serious here. Your making Michales sound like a complete innoccent in this whole thing. How many fk'n times had Michaels turned down what Vince asked him to do in the past? More then I can count on two hands probably. Michaels did what Vince asked him to because he was getting the title. Christ, if someone told you he'll give you a million dollars to backstab your business partner and you can deny everything and no one will ever know, would you? Michales was a di** to Bret Hart that whole year and was playing Vince like a pawn. Do you think Michaels would of jobbed that night if Vince asked him too? I'm willing to bet no.

[John la Rock]

BANG

LC you get a rep for that :y:

grr I must spread some rep around :(

[LK]

Yeah LC you are right Michaels probably would have refused to do the job. I don't think I worded what I said right. What I was just talking about that particular night and I am not denying thay HBK is one of the biggest egomaninc's in wrestling history and he has been known to refused to to the job in the past. I am not saying that Shawn is a completly innocent party in this whole scenario but what I am essentially saying is that Bret isn't the completly innocent party either. And to answer your question no I wouldn't stab someone in the back if I had the option.

[Kane Knight]

Yeah LC you are right Michaels probably would have refused to do the job. I don't think I worded what I said right. What I was just talking about that particular night and I am not denying thay HBK is one of the biggest egomaninc's in wrestling history and he has been known to refused to to the job in the past. I am not saying that Shawn is a completly innocent party in this whole scenario but what I am essentially saying is that Bret isn't the completly innocent party either. And to answer your question no I wouldn't stab someone in the back if I had the option.
No, Bret isn't totally innocent. He's guilty of saying "I don't want to lose tonight" when he was given the choice. Massive sin here. Then here comes the thing: Vince says, "Okay," and plans the go-ahead on Bret losing anyway. Bret was given legit authority, and Vince coneeded to him instead of pressing the issue.

DAMN YOUSE BRET!

[Funky Fly]

No, Bret isn't totally innocent. He's guilty of saying "I don't want to lose tonight" when he was given the choice. Massive sin here. Then here comes the thing: Vince says, "Okay," and plans the go-ahead on Bret losing anyway. Bret was given legit authority, and Vince coneeded to him instead of pressing the issue.

DAMN YOUSE BRET!
Thank you.

And let's not forget that he was going to drop the title on RAW the next day.

Which means that (time for some big red font, guys):

<font color=red size=50><b><marquee scrollamount=15><u>BRET WAS WILLING TO DROP THE TITLE, JUST NOT ON A PPV!!!</u></marquee></b></font>

Whereas Michaels wasn't going to drop it, period.

[loopydate]

Honestly, yes, it's the method by which it was enacted that most people have a problem with.
Thou hast hit it, Petruchio.

[JeremyTB29]

I didn't read the whole thread but I just want to clear something up.Shawn has Jobbed to Brett Hart twice.The ladder match for the IC title that Bret had and the wwf world title match that Bret had.Shawn was the ic champ at that time.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for Bret because he was on top for how many years?.He was part of the most successful tag team in the wwf,He was on top for awhile as ic champ and had a number of years on top as a maineventer for the wwf title.Some seen to forget that Shawn was only maineventing for 2 years or so.It was Shawn's time.

[Pegasus Crawford]

Survivor Series 92

Bret-Shawn also clashed in a Survivor Series match at Survivor Series '93, right? May not have been a one on one confrontation, but still. :-\

I wonder if things would have turned out differently if the venue for Survivor Series '97 was somewhere in the US as opposed to Canada...