DEBATE: Is it possible for guys like Jericho, RVD, Kane, etc. to still draw as ME's?

[Heyman]

DEBATE: Is it possible for guys like Jericho, RVD, Kane, etc. to still draw as Main-eventer's?

ARGUMENT #1: No - It's too late for guys like Jericho, RVD, Kane, (and others in the same boat as them) to be main-event draws:

The WWE blew their chance with all 3 of these men. All 3 men reached their peaks at one point but for whatever reason, were not pushed adequately. Too many times, each men were made to look inferior to Triple H. All 3 of these men have been mid-carders for far too long. Their 'aura' so to speak, is no longer present amongst the fans. Even if any one of these 3 men become World Champ one day, they will be seen as 'transitional' champs (or champs who are simply 'unworthy' of being in such a position). Take a look at Big Show for instance. Because he was made to look so AVERAGE for so long, no one really cared when he defeated Lesnar to become champ.

Most people view John Bradshaw Layfield's WWE title victory as a joke. Even a guy like Chris Benoit isn't exactly met with huge face pops at present day.

Basically - if you stay in the mid-cards for too long (and get buried for too long), you lose that 'aura' with the fans. When you lose that 'aura', you lose your ability to DRAW as champ.


Conclusion - The WWE blew their chances with certain superstars. Guys like RVD, Jericho, Kane, etc., will NEVER live up to the promise and potential that they once had as draws.


ARGUMENT#2: Guys like Jericho, RVD, and Kane can still potentially DRAW as champs.

It's absurd to believe that Triple H has successfully "buried" the careers of RVD, Jericho, Kane, Booker T, etc., etc., etc. The fans will ALWAYS get behind a good gimmick....a gimmick of which is getting a strong push. If Jericho were to win the World title from Triple H in a few months, the marks would go NUTS. Do you REALLY think they'd give a crap if he's been made to look 'average' for the past few years?

Stone Cold Steve Austin had been in the business for 8 f</>ucking years before he won the title! Fans saw him as "The Ringmaster" and "Stunning" Steve Austin.

At Wrestlemania 14, The Rock got absolutely DEMOLISHED by Ken Shamrock. During this time, he was also made to look VERY weak by Stone Cold Steve Austin (Austin threw his IC title over the bridge, etc.). Did this wreck his career?

A few years back, Eddie Guerrero lost to friggin Chyna! Today? The guy is the WWE champ. Ditto for Jericho. He also jobbed to Chyna. A year or so later however (had he been pushed right), he could've easily been just a big a draw as The Rock (seriously). If Smackdown still had a healthy Angle, Big Show, Lesnar, and Chris Benoit, perhaps Guerrero would be drawing in numbers.

How long did it take before Mick Foley became champ? Shortly after Summerslam 98', the guy was becoming a joke (Foley even wrote about this in his original "Have A Nice Day" autobiography). A few months later? This guy was World Champ! And a popular one at that.


Right now - the US economy is still in it's 'down period'. As result, not as many people will be attending live events, etc.

Once the economy starts going back however (and people can afford to go to move live events, etc.), perhaps ratings/PPV buyrates will start going back up. Once this happens, THEN you can push the 'deserving' guys such as John Cena, RVD, Chris Jericho, Kane, etc.

Why push these guys right now during the WWE's DOWN PERIOD (a time when absolutely NO ONE will draw in significant ratings).


Conclusion - It's absurd to believe that none of these so-called 'held back' talent (i.e. Kane, Jericho, RVD, etc.) can never draw in the future. The fans will ALWAYS get behind a good gimmick......like they did with Austin and Mick Foley. Be patient. Triple H won't be around forever. Once him and Shawn Michaels leave (on Raw), the fans will REALLY get behind a guy like Jericho if he's made to be 'the man'. Ditto for RVD. A simple heel turn (followed by him winning matches via cheating...which eventually evolves into him winning matches more cleanly) got EASILY get RVD's career back on track.

Have faith.
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The "real" End to this Post:

So......which "Argument" or line of thought do you agree with more?

[c4g2]

Well, Eddie has lost the title to JBL, although I wish it ain't true.

I choose Argument 2.

[LK]

Arguement 2. Those guys could definetly draw if they were pushed right.

[Heyman]

Arguement 2. Those guys could definetly draw if they were pushed right.


I'll also have to agree with this.


Think about Kane from the year 2000 to 2003. Within these 3 years, Kane's character took a complete 180 (for the worse) compared to the way he was in 98/99. For so many years, Kane was a joke.

When he took off the mask however, Kane became an IMMEDIATE threat (and was actually generating quite a bit of interest). He could have EASILY become a World champion at that time (and in my opinion, the fans...and outside fans....would've genuinely been interested).


Point I'm trying to make?

You can bury a guy for a LONG time but if he gets a HOT gimmick/angle, the 'burying' can all be nullified. Eddie's "lie, cheat, steal" gimmick is another example......and to a lesser extent, John Bradshaw Layfield's current gimmick.

[Dorkchop]

When the Bog Show comes back, he better come back to Smackdown. I think he'll boost Smackdown's ratings. Now is a great time to push RVD a little more. People want to see RVD wrestling bigger names, and pulling off more of his moves. Jericho has, and always will be awesome until he retires. He could help WWE by being the champ, if he's given a good title reign. Kane is probably the best big man wrestler. Triple H needs to get off Raw and let Kane be the top heel. And Kane should have been the champ a looooong time ago. He deserves a good title reign. Not right now though, 'cause Benoit is awesome.

I choose argument 2, all the way.

[Ferocious]

I also chose argument 2 as it was put across better than argument 1.

[Shaggy]

I think the fans are waiting for RVD to become champ. He has so many fans really behind him that there is no way he can go wrong. Jericho I feel still has the chance to become champ because he was there once and know he is on his way back there again. Kane I feel doesnt has the fans behind him like he did back in his heavyweight title run days. I feel the fans arent really behind him and that pushing him for the title wasnt the best thing to do right now. They just brought it out of no where and then now its gone. Its almost like there were using Kane this time to just feel some time that was left out. Its say when you think about it.

[The CyNick]

Not to be different, but I'll pick #1.

None of the examples used for #2 were accurate. Yes Eddie won the WWE title, but he was never a draw, which is why Bradshaw is the champ right now and Eddie might not get it back. Austin was a mid carder in WCW most of his career but also most of the time he was moving upwards. And when you jump to another promotion you tend to start fresh. In the WWE Austin had a slow start with the Ringmaster, but by Mania 12 he was Stone Cold and was protected form then on. He was never made to look weak. Same for Foley. Foley did play a character where he was getting humiliated, but he always looked tough from day one when he beat Taker till he retired in 2000. Rock looked weak in the ring when he was a heel, but the point is he never lost. Even in the program with Shamrock where they made him look like a pussy most of the time, he always managed to outsmart Shamrock and keep the title. Thats perfect booking, heel keeps his heat, and the babyface still looks strong. But the point is, that booking wasn't meant to make Rock look weak like they have with Jericho and others.

The guys that were mentioned have been buried so many times that fans just have no faith in them. The fact that Eddie and Benoit haven't been able to increase business despite being two of the greatest workers in the business should demonstrate that you can reverse 4 years of damage.

The only guy who I could see possibly drawing as a main eventer is Jericho. Only because he is good on the mic and in the ring, and has that strong combination that might make fans forget about the last 3 years of his career. However, even with Jericho's talents, I think the fans would see him as a secondary player and they wouldn't take hims eriously as a real worlds champion.

Kane and RVD have no chance whatsoever.

When fans see a guy in a certain spot for so long and then all of a sudden they get a huge push 9/10 times it doesn't work. In fact I cant think of a time when it has worked. Just about every successful world champion I can think of either came in and quickly got the title, or they had a steady climb up the ranks. But in either case they didn't get booked in programs that ade them look stupid or weak on a regular basis.

[Loose Cannon]

I pretty much agree with CyNick, but I add a few notes.

First with Jericho. Yeah, I still think he is a draw and will do well as champion. But, it depends what kind of champion they make him. A champion that cleans up dog shit or a champion who is meant to look like a champion. Jericho is ling overdue for his win over HHH as a babyface and I think that is how you start his Title run off. Do it at Mania as well.

Now with RVD. They haven't turned RVD heel yet since the Invasion and I think he needs to turn so we can see how he will do as a heel. You never now until you try something and I think a heel turn will work if done right. And the right thing to do IMO is to put him with Heyman. Maybe you do an angle where Taker turns on Heyman. In run the Dudley Boyz to make the save. RVD comes out and everyone thinks he will help Taker, but he turns on him. Then you do Taker/RVD at a PPV and RVD GOES OVER CLEANLY CLEANLY CLEANLY CLEANLY. GOT THAT. That's how I would do it.

[Favre4Ever]

Out of the bunch that you just named, the only feasible "non transitional champ" would be Jericho. The reason Kane and RVD aren't going to be long time champs is because they don't have that natural charisma. Jerichos peak may be behind him, but I think hes still got it in him.

Look at the champs over the past few years: The Rock, HHH, Austin, Foley, HBK, Undertaker, Hogan. The reason these guys were always in the main event mix was because people want to see more than a good wrestler. They want somebody who will excite them.

Wich is why I think Benoits title reign is almost out of steam, and why RVD will never be a big time World Champ.

[Wildcat789]

LC, nobody will ever go over Taker cleanly. He is made to be the strongest and most over guy on smackdown. Yeah, RVD is over, but Taker can't even be heel without getting a huge pop.

It's hard to pick an argument here. Some superstars will be way over with the crowd, no matter how buried they may be. Take Jericho as an example. The fans are crazy for him, he is a great worker (possibly the best in the WWE today), and has great charisma.

RVD, however, is extremely stale. On top of that, he sounds like a friggin hippie on the mic. His ring skills are only average, and every match with his 'unorthodox style' could be read off on a checklist.

Point I'm trying to make? A character can still draw if the ring work is good, he can get the fans going while he's on the mic, and maybe if he comes off a good feud with somebody worthwhile. If I had to pick, I'd say argument #2 because I feel some wrestlers can draw after being buried, but I still think that some can not.

[The CyNick]

Keep in mind, there is a huge difference between being able to pop a crowd and being able to draw fans to an arena. I think a guy like Jericho or RVD will always be able to get a pop, but I think their characters have been killed, and its very unlikely they ever be able to draw.

[Innovator]

Out of the bunch that you just named, the only feasible "non transitional champ" would be Jericho. The reason Kane and RVD aren't going to be long time champs is because they don't have that natural charisma.
Watch some old ECW footage and tell me RVD doesn't have natural charisma. RVD can't show charisma on Smackdown cause he's only on for about 3 minutes before they cut away to JBL riding in a fucking limo.

Yeah Jericho is god

[I <3 Negros]

Jericho could definitly draw someday, I have a feeling we haven't seen his peak yet. As for RVD I see him as a upper mid-carder for his entire career, like Foley. While he may win the World Title, and have a good fued, he won't be a good World Champion. RVD will always be a good underdog, and a good IC/US champ. As for the rest of them their time is over, they're all too old and too buried to go on.

So I guess I agree with Arguement 1 and 2, in parts.

[Loose Cannon]

LC, nobody will ever go over Taker cleanly. He is made to be the strongest and most over guy on smackdown. Yeah, RVD is over, but Taker can't even be heel without getting a huge pop.


That's the thing though, we're not turning Taker heel, we're turning RVD. You give RVD his arrogant gimmick he had in ECW and you give him a clean win over Taker, he can say how he just beat the Phenom cleanly and he didn't even break a sweat. You know, some shit like that. Remember when Michaels was babyface and he gave the chairshot to Taker at Summerslam and then he gave a cocky/jackass interview the night after? The fans turned on him quick and they wanted to see Michaels get his ass beat. That's exactly where they need to go with RVD IMO.

[Mr. JL]

Jericho & Kane can still be saved because they are still very strong focal points of RAW and have always remained in the mix of things as far as given angles to work with and cutting promos.

RVD needs to get the F out of the WWE. Anytime this guy gets and angle or storyline for a feud the WWE kills it! Austin/RVD was killed off by a Triple Threat Main Event at No Mercy. RVD/Kane was killed off by Shane McMahon. RVD/Booker T was a mere sidenote in the Smack Down Spoilers Page.

When RVD & Kane were tag team partners and then split these two could have had a good feud. Instead, at Summer Slam they change the plan.. insert some silly unnecessary NO DQ garbage match and then move on with Kane facing Shane McMahon.

Same with Booker. These two were tag team parters. Then both move to Smack Down and Booker turns heel. Sets up a no-brainer feud. Instead we get RVD V. Booker in a few SD shows and then they move on. They at least should have had a PPV match at Judgment Day but no...

RVD was put in a tag match and Booker jobbed to Taker.

[jindrak]

With Jericho and RVD, the question is this- Will Vince get rid of his fetish for the big guys and let the "smaller" guys get a push? When Hogan left WWF, Vince had to be convinced by those around him that Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels deserved a push. Also, I think Vince would’ve given the title to Benoit if those around him hadn't pushed for it. Vince had publicly stated that he wants his superstars to appear intimidating, and garner looks of attention when they are in public. Just look at who he has vigorously pushed in the past, even while they sucked- Nathan Jones, A-train (thankfully not as much now), Tyson Tomko, and others. And while Vince pushes those awful talents to the moon, wrestlers like Ultimo Dragon are left for dead (in terms of booking).

My point is this- Vince will have to be convinced, that pushing Jericho and RVD is the best way to go. If Vince hadn't pushed Bret, he would’ve let Luger be at the top spot. In fact, when Vince believed Bret wasn't cutting it, he let Luger run with the ball.

Vince needs to get rid of his big man fetish. Let the cruiserweights do what they do best, albeit to sometimes ZERO reaction. Allow RVD to work HIS own style. With RVD, he was forced to adopt into a WWE style of wrestling, which strayed away from the style that made him so popular.

Lastly, Chris Jericho has shown himself to be the most consistent performer on Raw. He truly is a paragon of virtue. Top notch matches, tremendous mic skills, and charisma few can ever dream of having. Jericho is the total package, and when he was at his peak, fans treated him like a main eventer. Therefore, its senseless to say that he won't ever return to that spot. If nothing else, he has the claim to be the 1st Unified champion, and beating SCSA and Rock on the same night. In addition, that holding the 5 titles bit.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Definately arguement 2. I'd love to see an angle where Lita kills the baby inside her, so Kane goes completely nuts. He goes on a rampage destroying EVERYONE. Not one person on RAW gets away unscathed. The show ends with Kane above a bloody Eric Bischoff. Kane continues his week after week, while a new psychiatrist character claims that he's just going to claim more victims until he can become the monster that he once was, and to stop feeling the pain. Eventually Kane begins to wear a black and red cloak while he hides in the dark. He comes out to the ring and lights it on fire on occassions. He DESTROYS anybody in the ring. From Tajiri to Batista. We no longer hear those psychopathic promos. Kane eventually works his way into the title picture at the Royal Rumble or something, eliminating every guy without a sweat. Instant credibility for 'ya. Kane might even get a new psychopathic manager, or even Synn or Paul Bearer?

All's not lost for Kane. The other guys are in the same boat.

Jericho just needs to play the technical genius guy. Hitting the Walls of Jericho out of nowhere. Breaking rules, etc. Basically he could be a heel-face. If that makes any sense. I suppose sort of like Eddie Guerrero, but more ring based. For just once I'd like to see Jericho fake for a Lionsault in a match, and when the knees to counter it go up, Jericho lands, grabs them and locks in a Walls of Jericho. Maybe bringing back the Liontamer version of the move will help as well. But the biggest issue I have with Jericho now is his running knee on the middle rope. Any guy with sense would move out of the way while Jericho is standing there for 10 seconds taunting. I loved it when he hit it out of nowhere on Batista. Jericho just needs to let his mic skills, and wrestling skills, speak for themself. The WWE coul help by not putting a limit on this guy (let him do what the fans believe he can do).

RVD just needs more time to adjust. He sells really well, so he makes a beat down look credible, but I think he'll reach most of is success as a heel. I've never been fond of face Rob Van Dam, because I think he's boring quite frankly. A cocky heel Rob Van Dam would allow possibly a manger run with Paul Heyman or something. He can still do the stuff he does, but he could keep a cocky little smile on his face the whole match laughing at the crowd.

[big_bluto]

Now with RVD. They haven't turned RVD heel yet since the Invasion and I think he needs to turn so we can see how he will do as a heel. You never now until you try something and I think a heel turn will work if done right. And the right thing to do IMO is to put him with Heyman. Maybe you do an angle where Taker turns on Heyman. In run the Dudley Boyz to make the save. RVD comes out and everyone thinks he will help Taker, but he turns on him. Then you do Taker/RVD at a PPV and RVD GOES OVER CLEANLY CLEANLY CLEANLY CLEANLY. GOT THAT. That's how I would do it.
R V D:yes:

He's the only wrestler mentioned above who hasn't turned face/heel/fcae/heel/etc since joining the WWE.
This gives them the option of using him freshly, turning him heel and giving him a huge push to take the title from Eddie when he wins it back at Summerslam.

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Savio]

Whoa heyman "DEBATE" is my topic title you copy cat!