Survivor Series 1997

[The One]

Since this has once again become a hot issue with Ric Flair's book...and Bret Hart's response...

Who do YOU blame most for what happened in Montreal?

[HeartBreakMan2k]

Vince, although Bret should have dropped the belt, and Shawn shouldn't have agreed to do the thing.

[Goldbird]

kennedy mcmahon.

[Mayo]

Vinny. A classless thing to do out of spite because someone wouldn't job to one specific person on a specific night, especially when that person was a whiny bitch.

[Fryza]

I honestly don't care.

[Loose Cannon]

Okay guys, I'm logging off. But if I come back here and see things that I have alredy explained about in the other thread mentioned again, someone is gonna pay. :mad:

Vinve BTW.

[#1-norm-fan]

Bret owed it to Vince to drop the belt to HBK. Vince was wrong to do what he did, but it should have never come to that. I guess they are both to blame in a way. Not HBK though. He was simply doing what he was asked to do.

[Lara Emily]

Bret owed it to Vince to drop the belt to HBK. Vince was wrong to do what he did, but it should have never come to that. I guess they are both to blame in a way. Not HBK though. He was simply doing what he was asked to do.

He owed it? Just to appease my curriosity could you elaborate.

[#1-norm-fan]

He was leaving for WCW and he held the WWF title. It's just common courtesy for him to drop the belt to the man that is lined up to fill that void, making him look good before leaving.

It's like when someone is retiring, it's good to go out with a loss and put the other guy over. Well the only difference here would be that Bret was leaving to work for the competition. He needed to put his personal feelings aside, do the job, and give that to Vince before heading to WCW.

[Lara Emily]

He was leaving for WCW and he held the WWF title. It's just common courtesy for him to drop the belt to the man that is lined up to fill that void, making him look good before leaving.

It's like when someone is retiring, it's good to go out with a loss and put the other guy over. Well the only difference here would be that Bret was leaving to work for the competition. He needed to put his personal feelings aside, do the job, and give that to Vince before heading to WCW.
Except Vince was the one telling him to go in the first place and Bret was gonna drop the title in a 4 way match in such a way that not only does HBK get the belt but another guy could have been made a star (Ken Shamrock). Fact of the mater is Bret put his heart and soul into the WWF turning down bigger contracts from WCW all along until Vince told him to go because they were goingto have to breach his contract. Bret barely missed a show in 14 years and never injured a single person in the ring. Vince gave him creative control, it was that control that Bret used to refuse. So really even if you blame Bret for using that control it's still Vince's fault because he allowed it to be put in there in the first place.

[#1-norm-fan]

I realise that. I'm simply saying that yes Bret had creative control and technically didn't do anything wrong in using it. It just would have been cool for him to put all his hatred for HBK aside and just tell Vince that whatever he wanted him to do was fine. I don't think it's WRONG what he did... just selfish and childish. I don't hate him for it like others do though.

[Loose Cannon]

I realise that. I'm simply saying that yes Bret had creative control and technically didn't do anything wrong in using it. It just would have been cool for him to put all his hatred for HBK aside and just tell Vince that whatever he wanted him to do was fine. I don't think it's WRONG what he did... just selfish and childish. I don't hate him for it like others do though.

I knew I would have to argue things again.

Why should he put everything aside for Shawn though? It's like the old saying from the Bible, "Do unto others as they do unto you," HBK had been nothing but a selfish asshole to the Hitman. HBK came out with the "Sunny Days" remark on live TV implying Bret and Sunny had an affair, HBK flat out refused to job to Bret on a number of occassions, HBK called Stu "Dead" on live TV, HBK blatantly mocked the Canadian flag. And, Bret actually agreed to job to him, but Shawn said something disrespectful

Here, it was in that article:

In a conversation that I had with Shawn Michaels three weeks before Montreal, when I was champion, I told him that despite our differences, I wanted him to know that he was safe working with me in the ring and that I had no problem whatsoever putting him over. Shawn’s exact words to me were, “I appreciate that, but I want you to know that I’m not willing to do the same thing for you.” This was just plain unprofessional. Putting him over would have condoned his disrespect, not just for me but for the honor of old school ways.

-----------

Now come on, why should Bret give a shit about Shawn?

[#1-norm-fan]

He didn't owe Shawn anything. It just so happened that Vince had Shawn in line to be the champion once Bret left. It was all between Bret and Vince. The fact that Bret hated Shawn so much would have just made Bret jobbing to him for Vince that much more respectful.

I'm not going to get into the whole HBK-Bret thing because no one here can possibly ever know all the details. And all the stuff HBK did on TV is just BS.

Eugene disrespected the French flag a few months back... THAT NICK DINSMORE IS A DICK!!!

[Boondock Saint]

I missed the Confidential about this with HBK. He was indeed in on the whole thing correct?

[#1-norm-fan]

Yes, he admitted it.

[Boondock Saint]

Fckkkkkk I clicked Bret. WTFFFFFF

[#1-norm-fan]

HOW COULD YOU MAKE THAT MISTAKE!?!?

*wink, wink*

[Boondock Saint]

:shifty:

[mike616]

after all this time I have come to think in a way it's all 3 mens fault.

1. Vince for being that vindictive

2. Bret for not knowing better

3. Hbk for taking advantage of the whole sitiuation.

[ZuperWario]

well somewhere I read that bret only had creative control for the last 31 days of his contract.

Back to the point, its 50/50 between vince and Bret. Shawn should not even get a vote because he did what he was told.Even if he lied to Bret that he never knew from the start.

[#1-norm-fan]

3. Hbk for taking advantage of the whole sitiuation.

How's that now?

[ZuperWario]

Oh and i voted for Vince anyhow.

[mike616]

How's that now?
He knew of the problems Vince and Bret were having .

[Lara Emily]

I knew I would have to argue things again.

Why should he put everything aside for Shawn though? It's like the old saying from the Bible, "Do unto others as they do unto you," HBK had been nothing but a selfish asshole to the Hitman. HBK came out with the "Sunny Days" remark on live TV implying Bret and Sunny had an affair, HBK flat out refused to job to Bret on a number of occassions, HBK called Stu "Dead" on live TV, HBK blatantly mocked the Canadian flag. And, Bret actually agreed to job to him, but Shawn said something disrespectful

Here, it was in that article:

In a conversation that I had with Shawn Michaels three weeks before Montreal, when I was champion, I told him that despite our differences, I wanted him to know that he was safe working with me in the ring and that I had no problem whatsoever putting him over. Shawn’s exact words to me were, “I appreciate that, but I want you to know that I’m not willing to do the same thing for you.” This was just plain unprofessional. Putting him over would have condoned his disrespect, not just for me but for the honor of old school ways.

-----------

Now come on, why should Bret give a shit about Shawn?
Ok now while I mostly agree. I do have to point out that I'm pretty sure the bible quote is: Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Which is basically treat others who you would want to be treated.

[Loose Cannon]

He didn't owe Shawn anything. It just so happened that Vince had Shawn in line to be the champion once Bret left. It was all between Bret and Vince. The fact that Bret hated Shawn so much would have just made Bret jobbing to him for Vince that much more respectful.

I'm not going to get into the whole HBK-Bret thing because no one here can possibly ever know all the details. And all the stuff HBK did on TV is just BS.

Eugene disrespected the French flag a few months back... THAT NICK DINSMORE IS A DICK!!!

Fine, take out the Flag thing, but he's a dick for all those other things. I just don't see why you think Bret is at fault for this and not Vince. That's totally ridiculous. REMEMBER, BRET AGREED TO DROP THE TITLE TO SHAWN MONDAY ON RAW.

[Loose Cannon]

Ok now while I mostly agree. I do have to point out that I'm pretty sure the bible quote is: Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Which is basically treat others who you would want to be treated.

Yeah, you're right. It was 2am and my brain got all mixed up from arguing this thing again.

[Loose Cannon]

Ok now while I mostly agree. I do have to point out that I'm pretty sure the bible quote is: Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Which is basically treat others who you would want to be treated.

Yeah, you're right. It was 2AM and I was typing really fast, so I just wrote anything that was close.

[Loose Cannon]

Fine, take out the Flag thing, but he's a dick for all those other things. I just don't see why you think Bret is at fault for this and not Vince. That's totally ridiculous. REMEMBER, BRET AGREED TO DROP THE TITLE TO SHAWN MONDAY ON RAW. And what do you mean all that stuff Shawn did on TV was BS. Do you condone Shawn lying about an affair on national TV for Bret's wife and kids to hear. I mean, come on. That's just way out of line.

[Tornado]

<s>Earl Hebner</s>


Blame can be placed on all three, but Vince has to take the majority. He didn't have to go out there and ring the bell himself...

[The Mackem]

I'd put them all equally at fault.

[Blue Demon]

I'd put them all equally at fault.
I agree with this...but I voted Vince because I couldn't vote for both. As ,uch as I respect Bret, as he is my favourite wrestler, he should take some of the blame.

[Excellance of Execution]

Vince knew for a while that he was going to ask Bret to leave because he couldn't afford to pay him. Why didn't he have Bret drop the title weeks before Survivor Series? It wasn't like the day before Survivor Series that Bret was asked to leave, if i remember correctly, it was weeks before. Bret could have dropped the title to Shawn weeks before SS and everything would have been avoided. People say Vince is a genius, but i think he is a fk moron.

[RemyRed]

Vince McMahhon is just an asshole, as is Shawn Michaels and his whole clique, just look at some of the past wrestlers, nearly everyone who had gone to WCW back then had spoken out against Vince McMahhon and the fact that he screws everyone over, this one falls right on Vince for organising the whole job, and Shawn Michaels for going through with it, which proves that he's a spoiled bitch with no backbone. What was really fucked up about the whole thing was how EVERYONE minus the other wrestlers were in on it, and not a single one of em had the balls to say anything. If what Bret Hart said was true however, I think Earl Hebner was the biggest dick of all, he told Bret that he'd never screw him and would rather be fired (somewhere along those lines) and just completely 180s his "close friend". People like that are the fuckin worst.

[Disturbed316]

Speaking of this 'event', bought Wrestling with Shadows on dvd today.

And I saw Vince is to blame.

[RemyRed]

Damn I've been looking for that DVD, did it really show Bret scream at Shawn and Hunter?

[Rock Bottom]

I think it has to be God's fault since people are still arguing about it to this day.

[Loose Cannon]

Yeah, if you haven't seen Wrestling With Shadows I more then highly suggest it. You'll get some interviews where Bret was wearing a wire talking to Vince and you can hear Bret lay out his proposed finish to the match and McMahon ageeing with him. This was right before the PPV.Then Bret goes and tells his wife and Bulldog that the match is going to end in a DQ. It's probably on Amazon if you want a copy.

[Chuck Jones]

As much of a Bret Hart fan that I am, I'd have to shift blame on him for the screwjob. The rule in wrestling is that if you are leaving or retiring, you put the other guy over. Doesn't matter if it is in your hometown or not, just put him over. What Bret wanted was selfish.

I'd also have to shift some blame onto Vince for the way he did it. I won't shift any blame for Shawn on this,as he was just doing what he was told. The problem I had with him was he lied to Bret for years. If it were the other way around, I bet Bret would've done the same thing as Michaels.

[LK]

I voted for Vince but I feel that three men are all just about equally at fault. Vince for organising it, Bret for not doing the job and Shawn for agreeing to do the whole thing.

[ilt_undertaker]

I honestly don't care.

[#1-norm-fan]

I probably shouldn't have actually VOTED Bret now that I think about it.

Who voted Shawn though!?

[The One]

Who voted Shawn though!?

RemyRedAssassin

...I am one of the 7 to vote Bret... :shifty:

[RemyRed]

I voted Vince.

[HeartBreakMan2k]

Er, no you didn't. This is a public poll so we can see who everyone voted. You voted Shawn. Ass.

[Loose Cannon]

lol.

[Favre4Ever]

Bret and Shawn Michaels were PAID EMPLOYEES of the World Wrestling Federation. If Vince told Bret he was going to dress up like a clown and ride around on Shawn Michaels back for an hour, he should have done it without hesitation.

It was VINCES COMPANY. Vince was losing to WCW, and everything could have been ruined if Bret Hart didnt do the job he was asked( should have been TOLD) to do. Shawn Michaels was another paid employee. He was asked to carry on the storyline, and he did it. Bret Hart let his ego go to his head by not doing what his boss required of him, and Vince took matters into his own hands. His company, his belts, his employees, his decision. About EVERYTHING.

Now the reason I think this is Vinces fault is because he trusted a man like Bret Hart with the World Wrestling Federation Championship. He should have chosen someone who he KNEW he could trust to follow his orders. Instead, he put blind trust in Bret Hart, and when Vince asked Hart to drop the title to Michaels, HART screwed VINCE.

[Loose Cannon]

Now the reason I think this is Vinces fault is because he trusted a man like Bret Hart with the World Wrestling Federation Championship. He should have chosen someone who he KNEW he could trust to follow his orders. Instead, he put blind trust in Bret Hart, and when Vince asked Hart to drop the title to Michaels, HART screwed VINCE.



lol, what? Are you serious? Bret was the most loyal wrestling employee the WWF had. He missed one show in 15 years, he NEVER NEVER NEVER refused to do any jobs expect that once. Bret could of went to WCW in 96 for more money, but chose to stay loyal to the company who made him. Now to say Bret couldn't be trusted is just plain ridiculous.

Do you think Mr. "I won't do any jobs" Michaels was someone who could be trusted. Do you know how many times Shawn refused to drop titles because he didn't want to job?

Bret Hart should have done the job, yes. But, Vince gave him Creative Control, NOT BRET'S FAULT. Vince agreed to a double DQ finish and then doublecrossed Hart. That's real loyal right? Bret Hart was willing to job the title the next night on Raw. He felt they were trying to sabatoge him by asking him to do the job in Montreal on PPV. And really, who can blame him.

McMahon's company or not, he should of never doublecrossed Bret like that. That's very unprofessional. And if I were Bret, I wouldn't want to drop the title to an arrogant punk ass with no respect like HBK eathier

[RGWhat316]

Well, I didn't really get into wrestling at that time, more so just afterwards, so I don't know all of the details. But I voted Bret because he's leaving to go to the rival company, while hes at the top of his current company. But to think he doesn't have to do a job on his last day in the company is ludacris. But I still agree with the majority to say that everyone is at fault in their own way.

[Excellance of Execution]

Well, I didn't really get into wrestling at that time, more so just afterwards, so I don't know all of the details. But I voted Bret because he's leaving to go to the rival company, while hes at the top of his current company. But to think he doesn't have to do a job on his last day in the company is ludacris. But I still agree with the majority to say that everyone is at fault in their own way.
If you don't have all the detail's, how can you give an accurate vote? Read up on it and you will clearly see that Vince is 100% at fault. Bret had creative control, that mean's he has a say in how he loses (vince put that in the contract), and besided he didn't refuse to job, he refused to job to Shawn, he openly said he would have lost to anybody else. And on top of that, Survivor Series was his second to last day, he said he would drop the title the next night on Raw in a four-way match, with if i recall, Bret, Shawn, Shamrock and The Undertaker. In this match he would have lost and Shawn would have ended up with the title. Now is that too much to ask after 15 year's of LOYAL SERVICES? I don't think so.

[ColdwaVer]

Ok, I have to vote Bret on this one. The fact that the incident happened is Vince McMahon's fault for sure. But the fact that it happened the way it happened is down to Bret's behavior, for the simple reason that Bret was the only one who could have stopped what happened. Bret had been in the company fifteen years; he knew what kind of game Vince played, he knew what kind of game Shawn played. Why he assumed that they would follow through on what they promised will forever escape me. And it's not like he didn't have suspicions, or else why would he have asked Hebner to swear to him that nothing was going to go wrong? Bret had a chance to immortalize himself beyond a shadow of a doubt that night. He could have given the performance of his life, lost the title in a fighting blaze of glory, and then stood alone in the ring afterwards to pay tribute to the fans. The story would have gotten out all the same, that Bret was forced against his will to drop the title to Michaels, and that though it went against every fiber of his being to do, in the end he swallowed his pride and made that sacrifice. Bret would have been hailed as a saint, and the scales of blame would be undeniably tipped towards Shawn and Vince (and Earl.) The way he's handled it since then has served to drive it into the heads of a lot of fans that Bret is a bitter crybaby. In the end, two wrongs don't make a right, and although Bret has every right to be angry and bitter over how things happened, I'll never get past the idea that Bret could have made that night a glorious moment for himself, but chose to make it the blight on the wrestling world that it is.

[The One]

:love: ColdwaVer

[Excellance of Execution]

Ok, I have to vote Bret on this one. The fact that the incident happened is Vince McMahon's fault for sure. But the fact that it happened the way it happened is down to Bret's behavior, for the simple reason that Bret was the only one who could have stopped what happened. Bret had been in the company fifteen years; he knew what kind of game Vince played, he knew what kind of game Shawn played. Why he assumed that they would follow through on what they promised will forever escape me. And it's not like he didn't have suspicions, or else why would he have asked Hebner to swear to him that nothing was going to go wrong? Bret had a chance to immortalize himself beyond a shadow of a doubt that night. He could have given the performance of his life, lost the title in a fighting blaze of glory, and then stood alone in the ring afterwards to pay tribute to the fans. The story would have gotten out all the same, that Bret was forced against his will to drop the title to Michaels, and that though it went against every fiber of his being to do, in the end he swallowed his pride and made that sacrifice. Bret would have been hailed as a saint, and the scales of blame would be undeniably tipped towards Shawn and Vince (and Earl.) The way he's handled it since then has served to drive it into the heads of a lot of fans that Bret is a bitter crybaby. In the end, two wrongs don't make a right, and although Bret has every right to be angry and bitter over how things happened, I'll never get past the idea that Bret could have made that night a glorious moment for himself, but chose to make it the blight on the wrestling world that it is.
Excellant point's. I agree that Bret could have done different, but i still feel that the proposed finished would have worked also. Where there was a double DQ ending and Bret would drop the title the next night in a four way match. Vince's fear that Bret would have brought the title to Nitro is absurd, i think most people can agree that Bret would have never have done that.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Excellant point's. I agree that Bret could have done different, but i still feel that the proposed finished would have worked also. Where there was a double DQ ending and Bret would drop the title the next night in a four way match. Vince's fear that Bret would have brought the title to Nitro is absurd, i think most people can agree that Bret would have never have done that.

...

Exactly. Bret grew up in the business, he would never spit on it like that. Stu would practically disown him if he had pulled such a stunt.
No way in hell Bret ever does that to a company he considered home and like family. He truly was appreciative of all that company gave him and his family.
That's not how Bret operates, he's a pure pro.

[Savio]

I heard what pissed bret off was shawn said "I'd never put you over" or something like that.

[ColdwaVer]

Vince's fear that Bret would have brought the title to Nitro is absurd, i think most people can agree that Bret would have never have done that.

Bret might not have done it, however it's not totally a matter of what Bret would have done. Bischoff could very well have hailed Bret as the never-beaten WWF champion come to WCW. He could have appeared even with a replica WWF belt and trashed it a la Madusa without Bret ever being part of it. No, I don't think Bret would have had a pisstake all over the title on TV, yes, I agree that he had/has too much respect for the business than that, but I also think that Bischoff would have personally and literally crapped on the belt if he thought it would have meant ratings.

Bottom line, Bret might not have taken the belt to WCW, but Bischoff would certainly have brought the WWF champion into WCW.

[Batsu]

Vince...bottom line.

LC has already said all that needs to be said. Those voting Bret, and to a lesser extent Shawn have to be teetering on the edge of delusion. Bret isn't my favorite wrestler, but I do believe he does kick ass. Ditto for HBK...I put the blame on Vince because everything was signed, sealed, and delivered, then he (and some others) reneged without informing Bret. That's definition of a screwjob if you ask me.