DISCUSSION - Is Randy Orton ready to be the World Champion of Raw? (other thoughts)

[Heyman]

DISCUSSION - Is Randy Orton ready to be the World Champion of Raw? (other thoughts)


<font color=white>Randy Orton: Should he win the title at Summerslam?</font>

As rumor has it, the WWE might be putting title on Orton come Summerslam. A few thoughts come to my mind: Is the time right?

One can argue that the time IS right because

a) Randy Orton is very 'over' right now. When a guy has momentum going, push him! If you don't push a guy who is 'hot' at the currrent time, you may "miss the boat". A good example of this is RVD perhaps. RVD was sizzling in 2001, yet the WWE chose to hold him back.

b) Does the WWE fan base clamor for an "extraordinary" character? This is the one thing that Orton has going for him. For the longest time now, Orton has been made to look 'extraordinary'.....or "above average". Is this the one quality that could make him a potential draw for the future?

If the WWE holds off on Orton for too long, one can argue that he'd lose that 'aura' of being 'extraordinary'. In other words, people may just start perceiving him to be 'common'.....and this could potentially lead to him not being a future draw. For examples of this - take a look at Big Show and Kane.. To lesser extents, take a look at guys like Test and Val Venis.

All 4 of these guys have arguably been 'in the same spot' for far too long. Hence - they were practically killed in terms of drawing potential.

<font color=red>The longer someone is held down in the mid-cards, the less likely he will become a draw one day......unless the creative team comes up with a GENIUS of a gimmick upon re-packing that wrestler</font>. Rikishi (year 2000) and Stone Cold Steve Austin are examples of this....to varying degrees obviously.
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On the other hand............Could Randy Orton become another Brock Lesnar? or Goldberg? While it's definitely one thing to hold someone down for TOO long and potentially kill them as draws (i.e. RVD, Booker T), there are also 'negative' qualties associated in pushing someone too fast.

When you have a wrestler in the company, you ideally want them around for the 'long haul'. When a wrestler wins the world title, he can hopefully appreciate what it took to 'get there'.

<font color=red> If a wrestler genuinely does "pay his dues", he'll be more likely to appreciate what he has. Therefore - he'll try and 'stay on top' longer and will also be more motivated to establish his legacy'</font>


Think about guys like Austin, Benoit, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, etc. Now - think about guys like Ultimate Warrior, Goldberg, and Brock Lesnar. In the latter case, can you honestly say that any of these guys REALLY care about the business?

When you push a guy too fast, you also run the risk of giving him an ego (although you CAN say the same thing about wrestlers who pay their dues). <font color=red>HOWEVER - I also think that one can argue that a wrestler....who is pushed too fast..... would be more likely to TURN HIS BACK on a company if things aren't going his way......or if he loses motivation due to not having "anything left to achieve".</font>.


So................In Conclusion, I think there are risks associated with BOTH putting the title on Orton at Summerslam or waiting until he has 'paid his dues' a bit more.

Putting the title on Orton too quick --> the next Warrior, Goldberg, Lesnar? Won't appreciate what he's getting?

Waiting on Orton --> Another RVD?...or (gulp) Test? --> Being weakened as potential future draw?



<font color=white>My Opinion on Randy Orton</font>

In my opinion, I think Orton SHOULD get the title victory at Summerslam.......however - I think he should do the JOB at Wrestlemania to whomever he faces (whether it be Triple H, Edge,....Eddie Guerrero?, etc.).

This way

1) The WWE do capitalize on Orton's current hot streak and in effect, not "RVD" him.

2) The WWE don't give Orton things too soon too quickly. By making him JOB at Wrestlemania, the WWE keeps Orton motivated for the future.....as he'll still have things left to achieve.



<font color=white>Other random thoughts</font>

-I think RVD will get re-packaged as a heel in the very near future. I personally wouldn't worry too much about him being on Velocity right now.

-I don't think the Heindrich gimmick will work. This has 'Nathan Jones'/disaster written all over it. The WWE are going to well one too many times with the "indestructible monster' gimmick.

-I'd like to see Luther Reins dress up in a military or 'police officer' uniform (p.s. not a kinky fetish of mine). I think this will fit his 'bodyguard' image a lot better. Basically - I wouldn't mind seeing Luther Reins be this generation's version of Bossman (corporate Bossman).

-I'd like to see Shelton Benajmin act more "Ken Shamrock" like when he comes back. No more 'gay smiles and grins'. Personally? I think Benjamin would be AWESOME in a role where he simply beats the crap out of his opponents (heel or face) with his pure wrestling ability. Like Shamrock, I wouldn't mind seeing him 'snap', etc.

-Going back to Randy Orton, mark my words. <font color=red>If the WWE tries to turn him face before Wrestlemania 21, he will CRASH and BURN. </font>

-If Triple H is destined to be kicked out of Evolution, then I wish for Evolution to remain as a 3 man stable (no new members). Down the road, Triple H and HBK patch things up........and maybe even Chyna comes back? Evolution vs. DX? :naughty:

-I heard about this new proposed gimmick for Nova (the Richard Simmons 'exercise' gimmick). Personally? - I don't think it's too bad of an idea. Seriously. Remember - it's all about getting guys over....or people that can potential elicit reactions. This 'exercise' gimmick should be able to achieve that. Remember - a lot of people on here were against the 'Eugene' gimmick (and we can also see how successful it has been thus far).


-Triple H/Chris Benoit tonight. I've had a 7 inch woodie all day just thinking about this. Should be a classic. I hope that there is only ONE pinfall (in the end). In other words - Benoit wins 1-0 with Eugene's help. I want this match to be reminiscent of HBK/Bret (as opposed to HHH/Rock, Angle/Lesnar).

[Jaton]

I don't think he'll crash and burn as a face..but I agree with everything else you said.

[Watson]

2 Simple Words: Hell No

[Favre4Ever]

It would take an EXTRAORDINARY fuck up for Orton to remain in mid-card hell. Look at him in the ring. He's got the look, he's got the stamina, he's got the speaking skills, and he definitly has the ability.

I think now is a great time to put the belt on Orton, or at least get Orton into the main event. Can you believe that we may actually witness a main event match that doesnt involve Triple H? Whens the last time that happened?

[Heyman]

I don't think he'll crash and burn as a face..but I agree with everything else you said.

The reason why I believe he'd crash and burn as a face, is because characters have to be altered when people 'turn'.

In other words, Orton will not be able to portray himself as a 'cocky and holier-than-thou' type guy if he turns face.........just as Benoit can no longer play the 'rabid wolverine emotionless machine' gimmick that he had in 2000.

If the wheel ain't broke, why fix it? The fans like Orton the way he is now. The fans LOVE to HATE him.


In the future - I think Orton will have the potential to be a successful face. If you turn him right now however, it will be the equivalent of premature ejaculation.

Let Orton win respect as a heel first. Let's see where this leads. Just as Corporate Rock did........just as Triple H did as a part of the McMahon Helmsley faction, and just as Angle did when he first won the title in 2000.

[Splaya]

This is by far one of the best things you have ever written.

Now that I've read this, if Orton wins the title, he could kick HHH out of Evolution. HHH then turns face (hear me out on this one) and makes up with HBK and they become a tag team and take on Flair, Batista, and Orton. I disagree with you not having a new member of Evolution. Insert Edge into this picture. Edge can feud with HHH and Edge can be destroyed. It could kill Edge's push and help HHH. Now Orton will fight Benoit, Jericho, maybe even the tweener forever Kane. Go to WM 21. (This next part is coming straight out of my ass). HHH vs Orton for the title. Straight up wrestling. Batista comes down to help Evolution member Orton. Ref bump and Batista gets ready to Powerbomb HHH when all of a sudden he spine busters Orton. HHH does the Pedigree and gets the 1,2,3.

The next night on Raw, HHH and Flair and Batista come out as Evolution. HHH has turned full heel again and said that from the beginning Evolution screwed over Orton, saying Orton was too cocky, and that he should have layed down for HHH after he won the title. Orton comes out (now a full fledged face) and beats down HHH and Evolution. Evolution and Orton feud until SS where Orton gets another title shot and finally beats HHH in a ladder match.


How's that for a prediction














I think it sucks :shifty:

[Heyman]

It would take an EXTRAORDINARY fuck up for Orton to remain in mid-card hell. Look at him in the ring. He's got the look, he's got the stamina, he's got the speaking skills, and he definitly has the ability.

I think now is a great time to put the belt on Orton, or at least get Orton into the main event. Can you believe that we may actually witness a main event match that doesnt involve Triple H? Whens the last time that happened?

I'll have to agree for the most part.....and yes....I think it will be nice to see someone new in the main-event picture.


As far as his mic skills go however, I think they are somewhat comparable to Angle's. Angle is great on the mic as a heel, but average as a face (a lot of this due to the constraints from his own gimmick). I get the feeling that Orton would be the same way.

[Heyman]

This is by far one of the best things you have ever written.

I disagree with you not having a new member of Evolution. Insert Edge into this picture.






First off - thank you. :)

Secondly - I don't like the idea of Edge joining Evolution. Why would a guy who has BEATEN Orton cleanly! play second fiddle to him? Also - I think it would be a bit odd for a guy (who has devoted his efforts into taking out Evolution) to all of a sudden join them.

The WWE has tried painstakenly hard to get Edge over as a top face (at the expense of 'more over' faces like Jericho for instance). Personally - I think they should finish what they started building.

[Loose Cannon]

Okay, let me just get this out of the way quick: No, Orton should not win the belt at Summerslam.

You brought up a great point in RVD in 2001 as the WWE didn't capitilize on his momentum he had going at that time. But, you see, RVD wasn't a homegrown talent and the WWE wasn't about to put him over guys like Austin. RVD wasn't protected at all and that led to his downfall.

Now with Orton, he's a homegrown talent, he's young, he's 3rd generation and he's probably on good terms with management. They will protect Orton as the WWE sees that he is there next big star. I don't see them fk'ing it up when it comes to his career as of right now.

If Orton faces Benoit at Summerslam for the Title, Orton should lose, but come ever so close to winning it. Personally, I would make the match a ladder match. I think that type of match could get Orton a lot of sympathy from the fans and that's what Orton needs right now. Remember the Rock/HHH ladder match at Sumerslam 98 where the crowd wanted HHH to win, but at the end they really felt bad for the Rock because he gave them everything he had. That's exactly where they need to go with Orton. He needs to get one of those standing ovations at the end of a big match, even though he is the heel.

I think Orton would definately work as babyface if they set it up like that. Then from there you have HHH starting to get pissed that Orton's hogging the spotlight and challenging for "HIS" Title. HHH would convince Evolution that Orton is wrong and Batista and Flair are like "What are you doing man, Evolution isn't about you, it's about HHH, he's our leader" to Orton. This would continue on for weeks or months until Evolution finally turn on Orton and Orton is up against the odds. Throw Bischoff in and Orton is up against him too. This would get Orton a lot of respect from the crows as Orton would now be the one that is standing up to the Evil Regime.

I mean, I can see it right now. Orton gets laid out by Evolution when they turn on him one week. Then the next week HHH and Evolution are giving an interview and Orton's music hits and the fans will pop like hell. I see it working. Orton will be that 'Anti-Corprate" guy that stands for the common good.

[Loose Cannon]

Oh, then Orton faces HHH at Mania 21 for the Title and Orton takes it.

[Heyman]

That scenerio actually sounds pretty good as well. :y:

Orton losing to Benoit, but very closely.


I still have extreme reservations in turning Orton (I still think it would be WAY too soon), but who knows.

I think it would be interesting to see Orton TEASE a face turn (kind of like The Rock did before Survivor Series 98'). Actually in The Rock's case, he actually was turned face....only to turn heel again.


Interesting.....interesting.

Maybe Orton could tease the face turn after Summerslam (and be at odds with Triple H), only to "shockingly" help Triple H defeat Benoit at a later date?

[Mr. JL]

I would agree with you and say give Orton the title NOW!

I think if they hold it off until Wrestle Mania against Triple H it will be way too predictable. And he will somewhat become a RVD... only for a while though as soon as he gets the title he would bring his extroadinary appearence up but it will be still lacking.

Benoit V. Orton at Summer Slam for the title with Orton coming out on top. Perhaps Benoit could "injure" Triple H. Thus, forcing Bischoff to name a new number# 1 contender for Benoit at the PPV. That man being Orton.

The fans somewhat won't expect a win. They'll think maybe Orton will win but will they will be unsure. Orton wins in what will easily be a great matchup.


**The only problem is I see is that there's absolutely nowhere for Benoit to go. Yes, I can see him feuding with Orton in a few rematches but after that NOTHING!

[Loose Cannon]

^^^Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. There is a problem though. When Rock went form heel to face back to heel, he became the #1 heel as he was backed by Vince as the Corprate Champ. If Orton follows that, he'll just be behind HHH again, so I don't know about that.

[Loose Cannon]

That scenerio actually sounds pretty good as well. :y:

Orton losing to Benoit, but very closely.


I still have extreme reservations in turning Orton (I still think it would be WAY too soon), but who knows.

I think it would be interesting to see Orton TEASE a face turn (kind of like The Rock did before Survivor Series 98'). Actually in The Rock's case, he actually was turned face....only to turn heel again.


Interesting.....interesting.

Maybe Orton could tease the face turn after Summerslam (and be at odds with Triple H), only to "shockingly" help Triple H defeat Benoit at a later date?

Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. There is a problem though. When Rock went from heel to face back to heel, he became the #1 heel as he was backed by Vince as the Corprate Champ. If Orton follows that, he'll just be behind HHH again, so I don't know about that.

[Heyman]

Yes, I can see him feuding with Orton in a few rematches but after that NOTHING!

I actually thought of this awhile back.


Perhaps the night after Summerslam (where Benoit DEMANDS a re-match).....Vince McMahon's music then hits.

McMahon comes out and states to Chris Benoit.......that he must head back to Smackdown...since he's still contractually obligated to be there.

The only reason why he was allowed to be on the Raw roster up until this point, was because he won the Royal Rumble (which allowed him to face whichever champ he wanted....and thus, allowed him to be on that 'title holder's' show), and was Raw's World Champion.

Now that he's no longer the champ, he must head back.

Think something like that could work?

[Mr. JL]

I also agree that Orton will CRASH and BURN if turned face.

Keep him the same guy he is now. Same character. The fans will POP for him but if he keeps getting aggrivated by their response the fans will eat it up. The "Shut up. I don't need your help" is gold.

When Orton does kick Triple H out of Evolution... keep Triple H heel too. He sucks as a face.

[Mr. JL]

I actually thought of this awhile back.


Perhaps the night after Summerslam (where Benoit DEMANDS a re-match).....Vince McMahon's music then hits.

McMahon comes out and states to Chris Benoit.......that he must head back to Smackdown...since he's still contractually obligated to be there.

The only reason why he was allowed to be on the Raw roster up until this point, was because he won the Royal Rumble (which allowed him to face whichever champ he wanted....and thus, allowed him to be on that 'title holder's' show), and was Raw's World Champion.

Now that he's no longer the champ, he must head back.

Think something like that could work?

Actually, that would be perfect. Set the wheels in motion for a Guerrero-Benoit matchup for Wrestle Mania 21 for the WWE title.

Face V. Face for the WWE title (Guerrero V. Benoit)

Heel V. Heel for the World title (Orton V. Triple H)

[Heyman]

Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. There is a problem though. When Rock went from heel to face back to heel, he became the #1 heel as he was backed by Vince as the Corprate Champ. If Orton follows that, he'll just be behind HHH again, so I don't know about that.

True. Kind of like when Nash got 'finger poked' by Hogan and once again played second fiddle.


Personally - I'm intrigued with the idea of Evolution feuding with Degeneration X (through time, Triple H and HBK patch things up and even Chyna gets re-hired). Farfetched, but I think the fans would eat it up.

[Heyman]

Actually, that would be perfect. Set the wheels in motion for a Guerrero-Benoit matchup for Wrestle Mania 21 for the WWE title.

Face V. Face for the WWE title (Guerrero V. Benoit)

Heel V. Heel for the World title (Orton V. Triple H)


Guerrero/Benoit = :drool: *boner*

Since Smackdown's WWE title match will be THE main-event for Wrestlemania (atleast I think), that would be a classic way to end the evening. Two of the best technical wrestlers in the world going at it. The storyline would also be there (since they are friends, and it was only a year ago that they celebrated each other's victory).

[Loose Cannon]

Orton will be babyface by Mania 21 or before that. Mark my words. And who is to say he can't have the same character he has right now as a babyface. With the plan I laid out up there, he kind of needs that same type of character. He's got to stand up to the those who are considered tyrant. (HHH, Bischoff) And he's the perfect guy to do it.

[Loose Cannon]

True. Kind of like when Nash got 'finger poked' by Hogan and once again played second fiddle.


Personally - I'm intrigued with the idea of Evolution feuding with Degeneration X (through time, Triple H and HBK patch things up and even Chyna gets re-hired). Farfetched, but I think the fans would eat it up.

See, here's the thing now. What if HBK turned heel and alligned himself with HHH. They use HBK as an opponent for Orton, who he has to beat to get to HHH. It would give Orton a huge win and set him up for his match against HHH for the Title. And I would bring back Pac before I would bring back Chyna.

[Heyman]

Orton will be babyface by Mania 21 or before that. Mark my words. And who is to say he can't have the same character he has right now as a babyface. With the plan I laid out up there, he kind of needs that same type of character. He's got to stand up to the those who are considered tyrant. (HHH, Bischoff) And he's the perfect guy to do it.

I guess it COULD work out. Those "Randy!" and "Let's go Orton!" chants could be (and one day should be) a thing of beauty.

I guess the way I see, Orton would be fairly 'over' as a face, but not to the extent that he is as a heel. In this respect, he'd be kind of like Angle.


I'd also like to see more character development for Orton.

If you look at some of the past top heels, they all had memorable runs as heels (before embarking on huge face turns).


-We saw Corporate and Nation Rock.

-We saw Degeneration X/McMahon-Helmsley Faction Triple H.

-We saw Edge and Christian when they were a tag team unit.


In all 3 of these cases, all 3 of these can be considered examples of successful and entertaining heels. Through their heeldom, they put on many memorable and entertaining skits/promos.........of which the fans loved to hate.

Granted - all of these guys could have 'made it' as a face, but would it have matched their heel responses at the time?


I'm finding it tough to explain what I'm TRYING to say, but I'd like to see Orton's heel character further develop.

Orton has the potential to be a GREAT face one day. With that being said, why settle right now and turn him into a 'good' face?

[Heyman]

See, here's the thing now. What if HBK turned heel and alligned himself with HHH. They use HBK as an opponent for Orton, who he has to beat to get to HHH. It would give Orton a huge win and set him up for his match against HHH for the Title. And I would bring back Pac before I would bring back Chyna.

That sounds good to, but I highly doubt that the fans would cheer against an association of HHH/HBK (unless they opposed The Rock, Steve Austin, or Hulk Hogan).

[Loose Cannon]

I don't know. If HBK started wearing suits and being an asshole like DX days, I could see the fans booing the shit out of him. Thing is, they need to do that turn perfectly, cause thr fans will cheer Michaels. It's hard to get somebody like HBK heel heat. But if there was anybody that could do it, HBK is the guy.

[Mr. JL]

I'm not too sure about the idea of DX versus Evolution. It would be great. But someone would have to turn face. I personally hate Triple H as a face and I love Randy Orton as a heel. If you change either one of them..its going to get awkward.

The matches would be golden. It would really help Orton if he could lead Evolution to defeat DX. But the fans would love DX so I think it may over shadow Randy Orton completely and be very difficult to keep Randy Orton going strong while at the same time keeping DX strong with the fans as well.

[ColdwaVer]

I wouldn't put the title on Orton until Survivor Series at the earliest. IMO for Randy to become a great draw, he needs to win the title as a face, and he needs to do it after a long struggle. I'd have him lose at Summerslam in a match that sees no interference from Evolution. Randy should start to resent his partners, claiming that HHH is holding him down. During a rematch on Raw, HHH should actively cost Orton the match. Orton and HHH should meet at a PPV for a #1 contender spot, which HHH wins, causing Orton to leave Evolution. This could eventually set up a good Orton vs HHH non-title feud, which Orton wins, and then goes on to win the title, possibly at the Royal Rumble or even WM21.

[CosaNostra]

Yeah sure, put the belt on him - butnot quite yet. He's got great charisma and a good look; kinda like the Rock had before his big run. And Orton is younger than the Rock was. But he needs to go it on his own or become leader of his own stable.

Hell there are a lot worse people to lay a belt on; just look at Smackdown.

[mrslackalack]

I say at SS the Kings Comm during the Benoit-Orton match will be like Hennan cheering on Flair at RR 92.

[Splaya]

Actually, that would be perfect. Set the wheels in motion for a Guerrero-Benoit matchup for Wrestle Mania 21 for the WWE title.

Face V. Face for the WWE title (Guerrero V. Benoit)

Heel V. Heel for the World title (Orton V. Triple H)



What if I do you one better and go out on a limb and say the winners of those 2 matches will fight in a title unification match as the main event for WM 21. Imagine the possibilites. Orton vs Benoit. Orton Vs Guerrero. HHH vs Benoit and finally HHH vs Guerrero. I think personally Orton vs Guerrero would be the best out of all of those possibilites.

[Shadow]

No. I don't belive Orton's ready to be world champ yet. He needs to try the face side of things before he actually gets a shot. I'm not trying to be an ass, mind you. I'm just saying that he should try being a face for a bit. But world champ...not now. Mania 21...yes.

[Batsu]

HEEEEEEEEELLLLLL NO.

I like Orton, but...

Not now. I'd sooner see HHH take it back after Summerslam if at all.

I'd rather see him at Mania 21... or at least not until Cena becomes WWE (Smackdown) champ.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't think Orton should WIN the title, but I think he should look credible enough to win it. I'd have him feud with Triple H while building up for a title run.

[Transplant]

For better storyline purposes, Randy should beat Benoit. ONLY for storyline purposes.

[Bricktop]

I think Orton needs to come close to winning it, maybe even have a false ending where he wins the title by cheating, only to have the results reversed . I also think Orton needs needs to fued with Edge over the IC title for a prolonged period. Something similar to what the Rock did for his great IC run. He could then start to develop some heat with Triple H. His world title win should come as both a major step and sort of as a shocker, kinda like the rock as well. It shouldn't be so clear cut. Once those things happen, he will be ready, but not for a little while longer.

[Hired Hitman]

Not yet.

[LK]

Belt shouldn't go to Orton yet. I like LC's idea of Benoit winning but Orton coming really close. A couple of real near falls os so. And like I said earlier even if Orton turns face his character doesn't really have to change. When the Rock turned face his character didn't change. However after the way they made Cena an ultimate good guy instead of keeping heel elements in his character, i doubt they will keep Orton with a similar character when he turns.

BTW NO MORE DX!

[The CyNick]

I like the idea of putting the title on Orton. For one, it will shake things up, and will create some new fueds, which is needed. I think Benoit fighting off Evolution has run its course, and since there are no other heeld on the roster worthy of Benoit, they might as well take the title off him. I just pray they dont kill him after he loses it.

I think the way it will play out is similar to what Heyman was saying with a suedo DX faction against Evolution. And as LC said, I know they say "never say never in wrestling", but I would say Chyna returning is as close to a never as your going to get. How many women would want their husbands working closely with an ex-girlfriend? Even if they are Chyna.

Anyway, so I could see if they did a DX type thing, X-Pac coming back and being associated with the HBK-HHH group. However, personally I wouldn't make it a "DX faction", I'd just as soon see them have HBK and HHH become friends again, and they never refer to themselves as DX or anything.

I think the storyline has to play out where Orton wins the title, but still plays second banana to HHH. Eventually Orton gets sick of it, and they lay a beating on HHH because Evolution is all about success and HHH isn't the champ anymore. That can lead to HHH trying to get a title shot, but Orton wont give it to him, finally he gets one either at the Rumble or sometime after and that leads to Hunter v Orton at Mania, with Hunter taking the title. Shortly after that I would see where Orton is, and consider a slow face turn (this would also mirror what happened with Rock in 99 after he lost to Austin).

I figure HHH has to turn face eventually. He's got the movie thing coming up. I mean I think he can still be a heel when Blade comes out, because he plays a bad guy, but if he's going to be the lead in a movie (WWE Films project) he needs to be a babyface.

Anyway, as for Benoit, I really hope they keep him strong after he drops the strap (although I have my doubts) and then they have him win the Royal Rumble again. Only this time, he shows up on Smackdown and challenges the WWE Champ to a match. Whether that means against Eddie or Angle (both would rock), I think that would be a cool way to set up the SD main event for Mania, and reward Benoit for his strong work over the last 5 months. Thats probably wishful thinking on my part, but I really think it would kick ass.

[Corkscrewed]

Wow, there are a lot of great ideas discussed here. Personally, I like the idea of Benoit returning to SD! after losing his title, using the contractual obligation idea. However, I wouldn't have him lose it until Survivor Series or the PPV before that.

Orton should come close to winning in the ladder match (the finish could feature both men climb up, then some crazy spot, and Orton is knocked down just before he can take the belt down (he's actually touched it). In that way, he's a legitimate threat.

Right now, IMO, he's in the same position Eddie is going into No Way Out. He doesn't strike me as a main eventer... yet. However, if he has a series of strong showings, he can very quickly get up there and gain main even creditibility.

A nice two month feud with Benoit can establish that. The feud would be enough to leave fans with a taste of what may come (i.e. a future, more serious Benoit/Orton feud). The groundwork has been laid for Orton vs HHH, and I think that can be accomdated after Orton wins the title at Survivor Series or around then.

Orton can hold the title for a month or two, then lose it to Triple H (dusty finish). Their feud would be from Surivor Series to Wrestlemania (a bit long, but they could tone it down in the middle with a side feud that is part of Orton's quest to regain the title), and lead it up to a Orton/HHH match at Wrestlemania. At that point, having HHH retain or Orton win is another discussion.

Meanwhile, Benoit goes back to SD! and can either feud with Angle or Eddie. We could also probably have an Undertaker/whoever's not feuding with Benoit angle going up to Wrestlemania as well. Benoit returning to SD! gives it some much needed strength on the main even scene (I'd assume Bradshaw will have gone back to the upper midcard, kinda like Bossman did after his brief main event flirtation in 1999).

By that time, Cena may have made it to the main event as well. Thus, you basically will have, by the end of the year, Undertaker, Angle, Eddie, Big Show, Benoit, and Cena as your main eventers. Definitely not bad in my eyes, because it's 3 faces vs 3 heels as well, which means good balance.


So that's how I'd like things to play out. We'll hope.

[ZuperWario]

If Orton splits from Evolution then he has to change his song. That would suck.

[Heyman]

I
Anyway, so I could see if they did a DX type thing, X-Pac coming back and being associated with the HBK-HHH group. However, personally I wouldn't make it a "DX faction", I'd just as soon see them have HBK and HHH become friends again, and they never refer to themselves as DX or anything.

The reason why I think "DX" needs to be brought back (if Triple H and Shawn Michaels do become friends again), is because of the fans. The fans would want it way too much (or maybe it's just me :shifty: -). DX is also a recognizeable name.......meaning that it might have a potentially positive impact on ratings. One can certainly argue that with the exception of The Rock and Austin, "DX" was the 3rd most popular marketing tool during the WWE's prime.

Anyway, as for Benoit, I really hope they keep him strong after he drops the strap (although I have my doubts) and then they have him win the Royal Rumble again. Only this time, he shows up on Smackdown and challenges the WWE Champ to a match. Whether that means against Eddie or Angle (both would rock), I think that would be a cool way to set up the SD main event for Mania, and reward Benoit for his strong work over the last 5 months. Thats probably wishful thinking on my part, but I really think it would kick ass.

Benoit going back to Smackdown via Royal Rumble would be interesting. :P That's a pretty good idea.

What I'd like to see more however, is Lesnar making a surprise entry at the Rumble (at #23 or something), F5ing the CRAP out of everyone, throwing everyone over, and winning it! *boner*

[Heyman]

<font color=white>NOTE: The following post contains Raw spoilers from July 26, 2004. Reader discretion is advised. </font>

Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Edge, and Christian (Raw spoiler)

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.After watching Raw last night, it got me thinking. IF Benoit does lose the World title to Orton at Summerslam (and assuming that there are NO plans for Benoit to go back to Smackdown), then what happens with Benoit?


You know what I wouldn't mind seeing? A re-knewed rivalry with Chris Jericho.

Here's what I'd like to see.

Remember how on Raw last night, Jericho turned on Edge during the battle Royale? What if the WWE decided to play up on this?

During the next few weeks, Edge and Jericho try to put that behind them, but they can't. Ultimately - it leads to a flat out war between the two.....leading to a match at Summerslam.

At Summerslam (during the Edge/Jericho match), Christian makes his return.

Everyone thinks Christian is going after Jericho. Christian pretends to go after Jericho............but he nails Edge! Jericho gets the 1...2.....3. Jericho and Christian then beat the crap out of Edge after the match, and hug!


Jericho turns heel again, and re-unites with Christian!

Since either Triple H or Orton will be turning face fairly soon, a Jericho heel turn will keep things balanced.

Annnyways - Benoit drops the title to Orton. After unsuccessfully trying to get the title back, Benoit becomes involved with the whole Edge, Jericho, Christian scenerio.

Benoit feuds with Christian for a few months, while Jericho continues to feud with Edge (and tension exists between Jericho/Benoit, Edge/Christian). They even have tag matches (tag team title?) etc.,

After January, it changes. Benoit feuds with a heel Jericho, while Edge feuds with Christian.

Both of these matches take place at Wrestlemania:

Benoit vs. Jericho.
Edge vs. Christian.

[The CyNick]

I agree what you're saying about the fans and DX, aI just hate going backwards, but yeah they'd probably call them DX to get the pop and sell more merch. But IMO, if the NWO and Austin v McMahon has taught us anything nothing can compare with the original and it wont have the same impact.

In terms of what to do with Benoit after SS, I'd say they will do at least one more PPV match with the two of them, likely the next RAW PPV after SS. After that, I could see him doing something with Batista and put him over as well.

In terms of Jericho turning heel again, we've discussed this before, I would hate to see him go back with Christian (which would mean Trish as well) because of their past fued. Instead, I'd rather see Edge turn heel and join up with Christian again. Tomko could possibly stay on, and they would be a 4 person group with Trish. In terms of angles, then you can TEAM Benoit with Jericho and they can fued with Edge and Christian in tags and in singles matches. Also, they could keep Jericho and Benoit in the top mix by doing matches where you have Batista and Orton forming a loose alliance with E+C against the new DX (HHH and HBK) and Benoit and Jericho.

I like the idea of HBK/HHH/Benoit and Jericho all banding together to fight off the heels, because they have all had major fueds with each other. So they dont have to be all buddy buddy with one another, but they work together to fight off evil so to speak.

[Loose Cannon]

Yeah, I'm with CyNick on Edge turning heel and not Jericho. I mentioned that last night in the Raw Thread briefly. Edge is getting booed anyway by fans at times, so it would make sense to turn him heel. E & C together is better then Jericho and Christian I think. The only problem I have with reunions though, is I think they work better as babyfaces instead of heels. Which goes to the next point about DX.

Yeah, I wouldn't call them DX eathier as I hate rehashing stuff that's been rehashed already. But, it is a common name among the fans and it probably would sell a few tickets and what have you, but how long will that last is the question.

Here is another problem though. If "DX" is babyface, that would leave Orton and Evolution heel. Now this is what I have been hoping for the the longest time and I remember posting the "DX" vs Evolution angle a couple of times before. But, Orton is getting cheered now a lot by the fans. So you have to wonder if it would be a good idea to keep Orton heel. And if Orton actually wins the belt at Summerslam, how would that make Orton the heel and HHH the babyface. Because what I'm seeing is HHH gets pissed and jelous with Orton and tries to manipulate Orton into thinking he should give him (HHH) A Title shot.

I just don't see it another way where Orton is made out to be the jackass and not Hunter. Maybe someone (Heyman, CyNick) can set up a storyline so I can see it. But right now, I don't.

Then you have the thing with Flair. Would Flair stay with Orton or go with HHH. If HHH goes babyface and Orton stays heel, I could see Orton and Batista turning on Flair. But even the other way around, if Orton goes babyface, I still see Flair, and Batista this time too, turning on Orton and staying with Trips.

Well, at least they have a lot of options to work with here :)

[The CyNick]

With the Edge-Jericho deal they did on RAW, I could see a 3 way for the IC title at SS between Edge, Jerihco and Batista. Maybe its elimination, and you have Batista get DQ'd first, which leaves Edge vs Jericho. Have both guys down, and then Christian runs in, and looks around, both guys get up, and he cracks Jerihco on the head. Edge retains the title, and then looks up at Christian and they embrace. Which would be a guranteed huge pop in Toronto, they would definately have to work over the next few weeks to keep them heels, but I think it can be done if Jeirhco and say Benoit (I would use Benjamin as Jericho's partner at first while Benoit is fueding with Orton) fueded with them and were made to look strong.

In terms of the Evolution break up:

I would have Orton win, and then he starts to act like he's bigger than Flair and HHH. He could show up in a separate car from the other guys. I would love to see them have Evolution show up in a big limo one night without Orton. Then later in the show you have a helicopter land somewhere and out comes Orton with the belt and some ladies. That would make him look really pompass. He could also blow off some Evoltuion planning sessions, because he has "champions business to attend to". This would have to be small subtle things at first and build as time goes on.

One of the key things I would use to keep Orton a heel is the return of HBK. Sometime in Oct, after HBK has beat Kane, I would have HHH come out and say he respects HBK and because of Kane he never got the chance to shake his hand and bury the hatchet between them once and for all. HBK is skeptical but he agrees and they just shake and wlak awya form each other. In the later weeks we could see Orton saying to Batista, for example that he thinks HHH is getting soft.

Then say at SurvSer they do some type of Elimination match and Orton is left with Hunter against two other guys, Orton then decides forget it, and leaves HHH by himself. Hunter beats one of the two guys he's against, but then gets beat by the other guy. The night after SurvSer HHH is pissed and wants an explanation. Orton reveals he's sick of carrying Evolution and especially HHH and says HHH has proven over the past 8 months that he's gone soft. Orton could say while HHH has been getting beat every night, Orton was IC champ for 7 months and then when he did get screwed out of the IC title, he only took one shot to beat the same guy HHH couldn't beat for 8 months. HHH reminds Orton he's an 8 time World Champ and if Orton had any "guts" he'd become the 9 time World Champion right here tonight (pause for pop). Orton would balk at giving him a shot, saying he doesn't deserve it, and finish by saying "Evolution has passed you by". At that point I would have Orton, Batista and maybe Flair (if he stays with the group) beat on HHH, only to have HBK make the save before HHH gets completely destroyed.

That sets up an HBK-HHH reunion, which as Heyman said would likely get over pretty well, especially if they attach DX to it. That way you have strong faces that the fans can get behind, and you know the bookers will to (hard to imagine HHH and hBK beign buried). And in between SurvSer and Mania they can do Orton-HBK as a program to stregthen up Orton.

[Loose Cannon]

Okay, I can see this now. It's originally what I had in mind a few months ago. I think it was that spot on Raw, with Evolution in the lockeroom after Orton won the match, that had me thinking HHH would be the heel. They made it seem like HHH was a little jelous that Orton was kind of seen as the "main guy" for a few seconds.

But, I LOVE that helicopter spot that you talked about. That would be so kick ass. And yeah, those other things where Orton kind of puts himself in front of the group is the way to go with him staying the heel.

[Splaya]

I know it's already been done, but imagine if HHH was getting beat down and "Are you Ready" instead of HBK's music came on. Out run HBK and a returning X-pac. Imagine the pops there. It would be a huge markout moment for me.

[LK]

A bit of a flaw with Heyman's plan is that a lot of fans are currently booing Edge and the majority of fans love Jericho so this could possibly make fans cheer Christian. That is why I think Edge and Christian should re-unite. After the match the con-chair-to to Jericho and just like that one of the best teams in history are back together and giving people with the benefit of flash photography their five second pose.

[Heyman]

My reasoning for Jericho (not Edge) turning heel

The reason why I felt that Jericho should go heel (instead of Edge), is because it then puts him at odds with Chris Benoit.

Jericho and Benoit had an AWESOME feud going 4 years ago, and I think they could do the same.

If Edge stays face, he can then feud with Christian. These guys already have the history, the background, etc. Furthermore - the WWE never really tapped in to their potential feud.


E&C together would be pretty cool to though. :y:

[The CyNick]

I'd like to see Jerihco and Benoit go another round. But if they were to team for a while again, it would make a turn mean a little more down the road, say this time next year.

[Mr. JL]

If they do go with a DX return.. it should only be short little stint. With Randy Orton leading Evolution to victory against DX.

Insert X-Pac along side with HHH & HBK... maybe Billy Gunn

Evolution stays the same with Orton, Batista & Flair

HHH & HBK play rock, paper, scissors for who will get the oppertunity to take out Randy Orton and his newly won World Heavyweight Championship. HBK wins this round of rock, paper, scissors and gets the shot. HHH feuds with Batista and Flair in tags with X-Pac.

Have Randy Orton win back-to-back-to-back PPV matches against HBK. This bring us to Survivor Series. HHH is pissed off that Shawn Michaels dropped the ball... yet again!

Then at Survivor Series, in an elimination style match have Batista & Flair both be beaten. This leaves the Champion against HHH, HBK & X-Pac. Orton beats X-Pac. Then he beats HHH after HBK accidently hits him with a sweet chin music. Then Randy Orton defeats HBk and once and for all finishes off DX!

Randy Orton and Evolution celebrate their victory. But not for long because now Flair has yet again another mid-life crisis and wants to see if he can make one last shot at a World Title. Orton gives it to him and defeats him. Then Orton has a mini feud against Batista and eventually comes out on top. Claiming Evolution is no more. Then Chris Benoit comes ut claiming he never did recieve his rematch. Those two feud off into the Rumble & No Way Out.

Meanwhile...
Degeneration X goes off on their own. Triple H takes a break from wrestling for awhile. HBK and Waltman have a little feud amongst one another.
HBK V. Lightning Kid (or back to 1-2-3 Kid cuz X-Pac has to go as long as the faction DX is gone)

HBK V. Lightning Kid would be a great little feud. With HBK playing the heel and Waltman playing the fresh face baby face.. similar to his 1-2-3 Kid days. If they do bring back Waltman they need to re-package him in this way if they ever want him to be of any value to the company.

Orton and Benoit trade title changes with one another. We need a few gimmick matches... Submission and perhaps a Iron Man Match. Orton eventually comes out on top at No Way Out.

Triple H resurfaces to challenge Randy Orton for the World Heavyweight Championship at Wrestle Mania 21. Because they never did have a one on one match during the Evolution V. DX feud because that was Shawn's job to take Orton out while Triple H handled the other. With the stips in this match being Title V. Career Match. Furthering the Legend Killer Gimmick as Randy Orton defeats Triple H and ends his career.

[Heyman]

<font color=white>Other random thoughts</font>

-I think RVD will get re-packaged as a heel in the very near future. I personally wouldn't worry too much about him being on Velocity right now.

-I don't think the Heindrich gimmick will work. This has 'Nathan Jones'/disaster written all over it. The WWE are going to well one too many times with the "indestructible monster' gimmick.

-I'd like to see Luther Reins dress up in a military or 'police officer' uniform (p.s. not a kinky fetish of mine). I think this will fit his 'bodyguard' image a lot better. Basically - I wouldn't mind seeing Luther Reins be this generation's version of Bossman (corporate Bossman).

-I'd like to see Shelton Benajmin act more "Ken Shamrock" like when he comes back. No more 'gay smiles and grins'. Personally? I think Benjamin would be AWESOME in a role where he simply beats the crap out of his opponents (heel or face) with his pure wrestling ability. Like Shamrock, I wouldn't mind seeing him 'snap', etc.


-I heard about this new proposed gimmick for Nova (the Richard Simmons 'exercise' gimmick). Personally? - I don't think it's too bad of an idea. Seriously. Remember - it's all about getting guys over....or people that can potential elicit reactions. This 'exercise' gimmick should be able to achieve that. Remember - a lot of people on here were against the 'Eugene' gimmick (and we can also see how successful it has been thus far).




Feedback appreciated.

[Mr. JL]

Heidenreich: Well, he has Paul Heyman as his agent. He has that going for him... and thats alot. The only problem is Heyman's not booking him. If Heyman was booking him he'd get over.. some way some how Heyman always could get a guy over.

Luther Reigns: I've never really liked military garb on anyone except Sgt. Slaughter. I just think it wouldn't look to good for him. It would remindme too much of The Truth Commision. He does need something added to him though. He looks like a smaller Brock Lesnar just with considerably less talent.

Shelton Benjamin: I could see that Ken Shamrock like anger working for him pretty good. And his smirks are surely not going to take him too far. Now here is a guy that would really benefit from a lenthy feud with RVD. I can smell another "NEW F'n Show" when Benjamin shows us what he really has got to give the fans.

Nova: I'm sick of these characters because characters like these will affect his in-ring work. He'll end up doing some stupid exercise dance every 30 seconds of every match. But... I guess whatever gets him on my TV and plus... at least he's not another HOSS.

[Mr. JL]

If they do go with a DX return.. it should only be short little stint. With Randy Orton leading Evolution to victory against DX.

Insert X-Pac along side with HHH & HBK... maybe Billy Gunn

Evolution stays the same with Orton, Batista & Flair

HHH & HBK play rock, paper, scissors for who will get the oppertunity to take out Randy Orton and his newly won World Heavyweight Championship. HBK wins this round of rock, paper, scissors and gets the shot. HHH feuds with Batista and Flair in tags with X-Pac.

Have Randy Orton win back-to-back-to-back PPV matches against HBK. This bring us to Survivor Series. HHH is pissed off that Shawn Michaels dropped the ball... yet again!

Then at Survivor Series, in an elimination style match have Batista & Flair both be beaten. This leaves the Champion against HHH, HBK & X-Pac. Orton beats X-Pac. Then he beats HHH after HBK accidently hits him with a sweet chin music. Then Randy Orton defeats HBk and once and for all finishes off DX!

Randy Orton and Evolution celebrate their victory. But not for long because now Flair has yet again another mid-life crisis and wants to see if he can make one last shot at a World Title. Orton gives it to him and defeats him. Then Orton has a mini feud against Batista and eventually comes out on top. Claiming Evolution is no more. Then Chris Benoit comes ut claiming he never did recieve his rematch. Those two feud off into the Rumble & No Way Out.

Meanwhile...
Degeneration X goes off on their own. Triple H takes a break from wrestling for awhile. HBK and Waltman have a little feud amongst one another.
HBK V. Lightning Kid (or back to 1-2-3 Kid cuz X-Pac has to go as long as the faction DX is gone)

HBK V. Lightning Kid would be a great little feud. With HBK playing the heel and Waltman playing the fresh face baby face.. similar to his 1-2-3 Kid days. If they do bring back Waltman they need to re-package him in this way if they ever want him to be of any value to the company.

Orton and Benoit trade title changes with one another. We need a few gimmick matches... Submission and perhaps a Iron Man Match. Orton eventually comes out on top at No Way Out.

Triple H resurfaces to challenge Randy Orton for the World Heavyweight Championship at Wrestle Mania 21. Because they never did have a one on one match during the Evolution V. DX feud because that was Shawn's job to take Orton out while Triple H handled the other. With the stips in this match being Title V. Career Match. Furthering the Legend Killer Gimmick as Randy Orton defeats Triple H and ends his career.

[Heyman]

Nova:[/U] I'm sick of these characters because characters like these will affect his in-ring work. He'll end up doing some stupid exercise dance every 30 seconds of every match. But... I guess whatever gets him on my TV and plus... at least he's not another HOSS.


True, but like you alluded to...........it will get him more TV time. As far as his in-ring work is concerned, I don't think it will have too much of an effect. People would still be able to appreciate his wrestling ability.

What Smackdown needs right now, are guys with attention-grabbing gimmicks. At a time when Smackdown is in its formative period, I think this is a great time to bring in newer guys with intriguing gimmicks.

Personally - I actually liked the Mordecai gimmick. Hopefully - the WWE will bring Mordecai back to Smackdown once he improves his in-ring work.