Should the current Home Record have an asterix?

[Moonax]

Maris's record had a an asterix because he played more games than Ruth. And that playing those extra games helped him break the record.

Bonds and McGwire both played more games than Ruth in breaking the record, but also both were taking drugs (McGwire was on andro - now a banned substance, and Bonds is on most of the medicine cabinet). So my question is should their records be marked in the same way that Maris's record was? Or, should in the same way that in athletics records set by people found guilty of taking drugs then have their records scratched, should the records of McGwire and Bonds be erased from the record books?

[ct2k]

I'm not sure about this one.

I think McGwire woulda been capable of breaking the record without juice anyway so it was silly of him to do it in the first place but i dunno about Barry. It's a tough call, look at Bonds over most of his career and he wasn't even a 50 home run hitter then suddenly 73, although the same could be said of Maris.

I think asterix would be a good idea

[VonErich Lives]

I'm going to say no...

Simply because Andro was legal when Mac was on it. and Bonds, while we can all assume, he's never been caught... no failed tests... and until the balco trial happens and they come out w/ records of what he bought, he's still on a good home run pace now, and has for years traveled w/ a trainer and worked out hours every day...

It's not like Giambi who dropped 30lbs in the offseason because he "stopped eating taco bell".

Now, if Andro was illegal then, or Bonds tests or they get records that he was taking illegal substance, I don't put an astrix, I strip him of the record.

Also, let's say we stripped both of them... then it would go to Sosa, who was caught with a corked bat...

[ct2k]

So we're back to Roger again:love:

Although i think Sammy is the man, he hit 60+ more than anyone, and those opposite field ones he hits...Man

[Moonax]

We can say that Bonds has never failed any tests - but then baseball has some of the weakest drug testing policies out there and if I recall, McGwire retired before they introduced testing so he may well have been on more than Andro.

as a footnote check out the builds of a young Sosa and Bonds compared with today.

[ct2k]

But remember Sosa wasn't anywhere near Big Mac's pace at first in '98 he went on an absolute blitz in the summer and caught up

[Moonax]

But back to the subject of McGwire having an asterix - maybe the asterix should say - mcGwire hit this number of home runs but he was taking Andro a performance enhancing substance which although legal during his record was subsquently made illegal.

Think about this - how many home runs might ruth have hit if he had had the 'nutritional advice' that Bonds has?

[ct2k]

That's another good point, Ruth was hitting 500 ft homers after a night on the town. I think you'll find there are plenty of players gone by who would've made a run for atleast 60 if they'd had today's advantages, i'm thinking of Lou Gehrig, Ernie Banks and Willie Ways. Infact look at Mickey Mantle, he hit a 585 footer once if i'm not mistaken, i guess on that evidence and the evidence of the amount of homers he hit, he's another guy who in today's game probably coulda hit 65+

[Moonax]

Of course the flip side is that Ruth hit in the era when there was the color bar - so it is like asking what would McGwire's toltal have been if he didn't ever have to face non-white pitchers like Pedro, Rivera (I know that they are both AL pitchers but you get my point).

[ct2k]

I think comparitively though, Ruth was off the chart, he was hitting more homers in a year than the rest of the AL put together at one point

[Moonax]

But this was in the pre-Tommy John era, the pre-MRI era, where people suffered from 'Tired arms'.

For all the talk of the current hitters being drugged up to the eye-balls, I am sure that most contemporary pitchers are pretty familar with the syringe.

[ct2k]

Strange then that top guys back then pitched 300+ innings on a regular basis :-\

[Moonax]

Yep but there were also 4 man rotations and shorter careers (with some exceptions). We don't know how fast people were throwing. There is also a lot of mythologisation that goes on about people and players.

Well this is what makes comparing different eras so difficult.

The question would Ruth have fared better or worse in todays game is perhaps another debate.

[Rob]

If you cheat to win, your records should be wiped from the books. Ben Johnson would have had the 100m world record for over 12 years if they didn't wipe it.

[The Miz]

Babe Ruth's amount of at-bats in 1927: 540
Barry Bonds' amount of at-bats in 2001: 476

In my mind that stat throws the asterik question out the window. Plus, even though the season was longer in 2001, Barry sat out alot of games, and he only played 2 more than the Babe.

[Moonax]

Yep but if Bonds was clean do you think he would have broken the record?

This is the debate. Do the suppliments that Bonds and McGwire took that enabled them to surpass Ruth mean that their accomplishments should be marked, just as Maris's record was. Maris was aided by playing extra games, McGwire was aided by Andro and Bonds was aided by 'Broccoli'.

[ct2k]

Look at Bond's HR totals year after year, he never got above 49 then WHAM 73, and not at an age where power constituting an extra 24 HR's is likely to occur. Meh, maube i'm just sceptical. He hasn't gotten anywhere near the last few seasons ofcourse, even on pace

[VonErich Lives]

If you ask baseball historians, they claim back to ruth people took stuff that "helped", given it was a scince like today, but neither was weight lifting, and while it can be argued that Bonds may or maynot have been on illegal substance, as stated, he has one of the toughest workouts in the league, known for spending 4-8 hours a day w/ a personal trainer.

Yes, he is bigger then he was as a rookie, and he was a rookie... 10? 15 years ago? 50lbs of muscle in 10years? with the proper workout and diet... very possible.

All being said, if it comes out Bonds was on illegal drugs when he broke the record, I take his name out of the book.

Mac was on a legal substance (legal at the time) I don't give him an astrix...

As for Sosas "tear in the summer" might that speak more to a corked bat being used?

I don't strip a record for speculation, cause there's too many players you can speculate on, or a player taking advatage of things the previous era didn't have... legal suplements, weights, nutrition.

What about pitching records? in the AL you face a DH instead of a pitcher, should NL pitching records get an Astrix?

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Prove that Bonds took steroids and then there should be a debate. But for now get off his back about it.

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Exactly, How do you REALLY know Bonds took 'roids? I mean there is a chance but its not like he went from being all skinny in the late 80's early 90's to jacked at the present time. I am not a Bonds fan at all but he got progressively bigger as time went on. Its like not he balloned up out of no where. Also Andro isn't even that big of a deal IMO I really don't think its anywhere near anabolic steroids..atleast from what i've heard.

[The Outlaw]

We can say that Bonds has never failed any tests - but then baseball has some of the weakest drug testing policies out there and if I recall, McGwire retired before they introduced testing so he may well have been on more than Andro.

as a footnote check out the builds of a young Sosa and Bonds compared with today.Also check out Big Mac's build his rookie year compared to later on. He broke into the league at 6'5" and 230

Plus considering he hit what, 49 homeruns his rookie year?

[The Outlaw]

Babe Ruth's amount of at-bats in 1927: 540
Barry Bonds' amount of at-bats in 2001: 476

In my mind that stat throws the asterik question out the window. Plus, even though the season was longer in 2001, Barry sat out alot of games, and he only played 2 more than the Babe.
Official at bats. COunting walks, Bonds had over 700 and Babe 600. Not really as important as official AB, but having over a hundred more plate appearances when playing two games more than Babe is pretty :eek:ish

[Moonax]

The argument that because Andro was legal that it means McGwire shouldn't have an asterix is I think some what flawed because the additional games that Maris played were also legal and that didn't stop his record being asterixed. So what's the difference.

Stima - Andro is what helped to kill Steven Bechler last spring

[Adder]

The asterisk was always a bad idea. It was put there bysomeone (I forget how) because of their biased towards Ruth. Maris should never of had the astericks in the first place. Rules change, games added, that doesn't change the fact that MAris hit 61, one more than Ruth.

[Splaya]

I'm going to say no...

Simply because Andro was legal when Mac was on it. and Bonds, while we can all assume, he's never been caught... no failed tests... and until the balco trial happens and they come out w/ records of what he bought, he's still on a good home run pace now, and has for years traveled w/ a trainer and worked out hours every day...

It's not like Giambi who dropped 30lbs in the offseason because he "stopped eating taco bell".

Now, if Andro was illegal then, or Bonds tests or they get records that he was taking illegal substance, I don't put an astrix, I strip him of the record.

Also, let's say we stripped both of them... then it would go to Sosa, who was caught with a corked bat...



Let's look at it though.

Don't know about Mac

Sosa- Could have used corked bats throughout his career and finally got caught.

Bonds- He has never been caught of using anything. But look at Ricky Williams, he was using a masking agent to hide the MJ. You can't tell me there isn't any masking agents for steroids

[VonErich Lives]

Let's look at it though.

Don't know about Mac

Sosa- Could have used corked bats throughout his career and finally got caught.

Bonds- He has never been caught of using anything. But look at Ricky Williams, he was using a masking agent to hide the MJ. You can't tell me there isn't any masking agents for steroids

But then couldn't you accuse every player of "masking agents"?

[Splaya]

Sure. I won't say no to that. You don't know who is fake and who is not in sports these days. Excpet for Stevie Y for the Red Wings (15 years without cartliege in his knee)

[Sensei Of Mattitude]

1) Prove that Bonds is on the riods (I think its a no-brainer, like OJ killing Nicole)

2) If there is an * next to Bonds... there should be one next to Aaron's All Time record for having more at bats than Ruth. With it being that the season expanded during Aaron's time. Having a long career shouldnt be the cause for the *.

[ct2k]

I don't think there is any case for one next to Aaron's record just like i don't think there shoulda been one on Maris's record, more games was just a natural expansion in the game and that's that. Using roids on the other hand, well i don't think there should be an asterix there should just be no record:-\

[The Outlaw]

1) Prove that Bonds is on the riods (I think its a no-brainer, like OJ killing Nicole)

2) If there is an * next to Bonds... there should be one next to Aaron's All Time record for having more at bats than Ruth. With it being that the season expanded during Aaron's time. Having a long career shouldnt be the cause for the *.
LOL are you serious? :lol:

[KleptoKlown]

You cant really compare stats back then, to todays stats. Baseball is different now then it was then. Pitchers consistanly throwing over 100mph, bats are better quality. The game is basically a science now, instead of guys whacking a ball with a stick.

Its like comparing Arnold Palmer to Tiger Woods. Both great golfers, but then people can argue how much better would Palmer have been with the amazing new technology in golf clubs now. Or how much lower Tiger's scores would be playing on some of the older coursesm with less fairway distances.

How much better of a Goalie would Ken Dryden have been if he got to wear those huge pads and baggy jerseys. Would Martin St Louis be as effective with older skates and a flat edge hockey stick.

Players in all sports are getting bigger, stronger, and their equipment is advancing at such rapid rates. Its not really fair to compare todays players to the players of the past. Compare players Like Babe Ruth and Lou Gerig, Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemiuex. But to compare Koybe Bryant to Larry Bird isnt right, as the sport was entirely different during these players prime.

[Penner]

You can really say that about any record in any sport.

I agree with Klepto.

[BCWWF]

If you're going to put an asterisk, put it for the same thing as Maris', otherwise you might as well add everything else thats not the exact same as 60 years ago:
*Better/more effective equiptment developed since Ruth broke the record
*Coors Field didn't exist in Babe Ruths time
*Major advancements in nutrition and diet
*More money and resources

You can't be that picky, records are records but in reality they don't really mean anything because its not the same thing. Unless every single variable is controlled then there is no way you can be totally equal. Take it for what it is.

[Moonax]

Did anyone see last night the clip of Bonds hitting his first HR?

He had the build of a weak hitting infielder.

[BCWWF]

Alfonso Soriano is a home run hitter and he is as skinny as Ichiro. He could easily put on 20 pounds in a few years, hit ten more home runs and not be on roids. Just about every player puts on quite a bit of bulk as their career goes on. Its also no secret that power comes with age. Its not that rediculous for Bonds to be bigger twenty years after he broke into the league.

[Moonax]

Bonds is about twice the size that he was then.

[BCWWF]

Its not like he went from being 100 pounds to 200 pounds and hitting 20 to 73 in one year, he's been a rather large player for years now and has never lacked power.

I'm more playing devils advocate again here more than anything else, the only season of his that was out of the ordinary was the 73 hr season, but it still stands that you are accusing someone without proof.

[Moonax]

Not really his home run totals:

16
25
24
19
33
25
34
46
37
33
42
37
34
49
73
46
45
30

Two significant figures there: first the leap from being a player hitting 20-30HRs to a player hitting 40+ and the leap to 73.

The reason why there is no proof is because baseball has the weakest drugs testing policy this side of cycling. It took a death before andro was banned.

Saying there is no proof - well there is no proof that HHH is on drugs but you can look at him when he first wrestled and now.

[The Outlaw]

Plus he was like 160 when he broke in the league.

[DegenerationY]

It's not like Bonds is hitting 73 every year though. He averaged between 30-40 home runs for 9 years before hitting 73, then went back to hitting between 30-40 home runs for the next couple seasons after. He had an exceptional home-run hitting year. He's never been solely a home run hitter either. It's not like he only hits home runs and nothing else - the man can hit for average as well.

Not as if the pitching the year of 73 was anything special, by the way.

[DegenerationY]

If Babe Ruth and Roger Maris were playing in this era with the same numbers they put up, they'd be accused just as much as Bonds, Sosa and McGwire are.

They could have been just as "dirty" as most people suspect the latter three are.

I just think people don't want to concede that, hey, players can train hard and have REALLY good years, naturally.

Of course, i'm going to have to eat my words if (namely) Bonds is found to have been roided up, but for now, I truly believe he is just a good ballplayer.

[Moonax]

Isn't it a bit funny how all of a sudden since they introuded the limited drugs testing no one has come close to 60HR's this season.

[ct2k]

Indeed, although i'm not a fan of throwing accusations at everyone who produced a huge home run year.

If Maris and Ruth were both on juice why did they only hit 60 once each? Maris never came close again infact. It doesn't make sense to do it for one year and just stop:-\

[King Chrös III]

If you really think steroids are that powerful :nono:

[ct2k]

What?

No ones said anything about the potency of steroids dipshit:wtf:

[BCWWF]

That is a totally relevant comment, actually, given the discussion.

[ct2k]

My point was if all these guys achievments are being diminished and put down to the possibility of steroid use, why didn't they both produce 3 or 4 60 homer seasons rather than just the one, which would merely indicate a huge tear and a hot (ter than usual) bat for a season, i wasn't talking about how powerful they were, i did word it wrong and made it sound like they were doing it for one off season and suddenly being packed to fuck, MANY APOLOGIES BCWWF.

[BCWWF]

That makes less sense then the first time

[BCWWF]

I don't even know if we're talking about the same thing.

You said No ones said anything about the potency of steroids dipshithttp://tpww.net/forums/images/smilies/wtf.gif
And I said that its sad if people think that steroids can singlehandedly add 35 home runs to a guys average.

[ct2k]

*capslock ^^^

And yeah i agree. I didn't mean that, but reading it back i can see thats what it looks like. By doing it for one year and then stopping i was referring to the smashing of many home runs not taking roids.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

So Barry had one extremely productive year hitting home runs. Look at Maris

Maris' home run totals:
19
28
16
39
61
33
23
26
8
13
9
5

Maris only had 275 career homers

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Bonds has gotten progressively bigger over the years, its not like he went from 160 lbs one season then to 250 lbs the next year or something.

[ct2k]

Same with Sammy Sosa

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Sammy Sosa has already gotten caught cheating though plus he hurt his back sneezing? Come on...Plus he flipped out when somebody offered him a drug test.

I think there is a much bigger chance that Sosa is juicin' then Bonds IMO

[ct2k]

I'm inclined to agree, but i'm not gonna brand him until tests come back positive...The chances of them even making him take a test are slim obviously

[House of Pancakes]

The home run record should have an asterisk because players are pumping themselves with steroids now.

[BCWWF]

Home Runs in a Single Season
Barry Bonds 73*
Mark McGuire 70*
Sammy Sosa 6?*

*These records may or may not have been inflated due to the fact that these players may or may not have been using steroids, although there is still no proof. Take notice.

[ct2k]

I think Sosa's highest was 64

[Kane Knight]

Woohoo! rampant speculation as grounds for a witch hunt!

Wouldn't have expected Moonax to use the "evidence" of "isn't it convenent that..." pretty weak stuff, as is evidenced by Maris' record being brought up.

The solution? Bring everyone back to the Ruth era of technology, nutrition, and physical education. Make them modern-day Amish. Otherwise, you might as well asterisk any new record. Klepto said it best. Even the ball's easier to hit a home run off of.

Or maybe we just accuse everyone who has a streak of being on drugs.After all, what more proof do you need? It's too convenient.

Or, you could just treat the game as a living, breathing, evolving being.

Sure, the MLB's pathetic standards on drug testing are essentially silent consent. You know what? If they're not going to test, then it's all pretty much speculation. Frankly, I follow baseball to see more than who can get the biggest tear of home runs anyway, and records are records...Some are flukes, some are skill, but they really don't make or break the game.

[DaveWadding]

I think Sosa's highest was 64


66.

[VonErich Lives]

people also seem to forget, more home runs have been hit since more teams have been added and you get weaker pitching.

most 3-4-5 starters wouldn't have played 20yrs ago.

There's no proof they juiced, so no *

[BCWWF]

Kane Knight :love:

[Moonax]

Kane Knight once again you miss the original point. It's a D I S C U S S I O N.

Well actually you miss the point of the discussion. I see no evidence of a witch-hunt but a discussion of an issue in baseball. Nor do I have any position eitherway. I am interested in the discussion and people's points of view. I am, because I can, playing devils advocate.

MLB's argument behind putting an asterix by Maris's name was that he played more games in a season than Ruth and therefore recieved an unfair advantage - although a legal advantage.

When McGwire broke the record he was using Andro. He was open about this and its benefits. This gave him an advantage - at the time a legal advantage. If MLB is going to have an asterix by Maris for legal assistance then should McGwire's record have an asterix for also recieving legal assistance.

VEL. You of course mention expansion. Again the dilution of pitching rotations is something that will have been to the advantage of hitters. So should it be asterixed as a 'post-expansion' HR record.

Should there have even been an asterix in the first place by Maris's record?

[ct2k]

I don't think Maris's record should've had an asterix at all in the first place.

[BCWWF]

More games in a season is worthy of an *, because the length of the season can be proven that they were different. If you want to start going into other differences, you could make a list of about 100 little details that are different, but you don't.

[Kane Knight]

Kane Knight once again you miss the original point. It's a D I S C U S S I O N.
No shit, Sherlock.

[Moonax]

BCWWF why are more games more of an advantage than a drug like Andro? McGwire took it because he felt that it gave him an advantage to make taking it worthwhile.

[Kane Knight]

Simple solution: Ban anything that would give you an advantage.

Chemicals, dieting, lifestyle changes...

[Moonax]

Explain how taking steriods is the same as dieting?

Life style changes? explain.

[Kane Knight]

Didn't say it was the same. Said it provided advantages.

So does improved equipment.

[Moonax]

You were stating that dieting was of a comparable advantage to taking steriods. Can you explain why dieting should be banned if steriods are banned.

In some sports where equipment can provide a significant advantage such as golf and cycling them monitor technical improvements and ban certain technical changes.

This is why they don't use aluminum bats in the major leagues.

[Kane Knight]

You do relise that the quality of equipment HAS changed in MBL since the era of Ruth, right? That current balls are easier to hit further, as an example?

Aluminum bats not being allowed doesn't change that the sport has evolved and will continue to evolve.

Meanwhile, I didn't say diet was comparable. I said it was an advantage. Maybe I should spell D I S C U S S I O N out real slow for you.

How far do you take the barring of advantages, praytell?

[BCWWF]

Not only that, theres all kinds of shit you can take that is legal, walk into a GNC and you can get any suppliment you want. Science is continually making advantages in health and hygeine, if you don't think that affects anything than you are blind.


I don't understand how you try to justify that your speculation is just as strong as given fact.

[Moonax]

Sorry, how is it speculation that Andro improves muscle bulk? It wasn't banned on a whim.

If you play a sport competitively then you will find that the majority of suppliments and indeed over the counter medicines are banned because the substances within them can give you an advantage.

I difference in the way in which balls are made is noted in the fact that there is a 'dead ball era' which is a recognition of that fact.

That you recognise that there is a significant difference between diet and steriods demonstrates why a distinction between steriods are banned and dieting is not.

[BCWWF]

Do you agree with this statement?

Athletes today are better equipt, in better shape, and trained better.

[ct2k]

Back then they used balls for longer too, they got battered to shit before they changed.

And Roger Maris had no control over the expanding of the leagues and more games being played, everyone in that era had the same advantage over Ruth. McGwire took the Andro knowing it would give him an advantage over most other players - Difference

Also, why is it that only Maris's record had a asterix for games when McGwire, Sosa and Bonds all played in the same expanded seasons?

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Maris and Bonds don't play in the same ballparks either, should that be taken into account? I don't think any of the stuff discussed in this topic makes any record deserve an "*"

I do think the things discussed in this topic help you form OPINIONS on the best HR hitters of all time and stuff but I don't think it should have anything to do with records

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Also I don't think Maris's record should have had an asterix

[ct2k]

If it deserved it for him playing in a longer season, Sosa, McGwire and Bonds's marks should all be asterix'd for that too.

[VonErich Lives]

VEL. You of course mention expansion. Again the dilution of pitching rotations is something that will have been to the advantage of hitters. So should it be asterixed as a 'post-expansion' HR record.

Should there have even been an asterix in the first place by Maris's record?

I say yes on Marris record assuming he broke it in more games then there were in a season when Ruth played because it gave him more chances.

If he broke it in less games then Ruth or even less game then in a season when Ruth broke it, I wouldn't have put the *.

I know, someones going to say "well, if we argue chances, then shouldn't we look at bats and/or games played" No, because there are some intangibles you can't judge/compare, pitching, parks, schedule, teams etc... however something like games in a season is an advantage.

Also, the Andro was legal when Mac did it and would have been legal for Ruth, it's not a "new advantage".

Now, lets say MLB goes to Aluminum bats and someone breaks the record, that would be a "new advantage".

As for "roids" or substances that were illegal at the time of the record being broken, if there's proof, I don't put an * I strip them of the record, you cheat, you don't get the record.

Mac was on Andro, it was legal.

Bonds may have been on Roids, but you not found guilty on suspision. Now, if it comes out in the Balco trials that Bonds bought and took illegal substances and records show he did it when he broke the record, I take him out of the book.

[Moonax]

The point about Andro is that it is a synthetic substance and was created and therefore wasn't available to Ruth or to Maris.

OK, so because Maris played more games than Ruth he recieved an asterix but as ct2k pointed out, Bonds, McGwire et al all played more games than Ruth did when they broke the record.

Does the fact that Andro has since been made illegal because of its effects (both health and sports related) mean that McGwire's record should acknowledge that fact.

So to break this down into two separate issues. The first is the more games argument, the second is the drugs argument.

[BCWWF]

Andro was banned because people have died because they used it, not because it helped McGuire hit an extra home run or two. Big Mac has also said that he wasn't using it at the time of his record breaking year.

[ct2k]

Then why the hell did he use it at all? :?:

[BCWWF]

Its just like creotine or any of the other supplements that just about every athlete uses.

[Moonax]

If you recall Andro was banned in other sports first and it was only after Steve Belcher died that baseball caught up with it.

Andro is not like Cretine. Andro stimulates the production of testosterone which in turn gives athletes bigger muscles faster.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/03/11/andro.crackdown/

[ct2k]

So it didn't help McGwire hit a few more homers? :-\

[Moonax]

Did a substance that artificially produces testosterone and gives you larger muscles help to make a few warning track fly balls into Home Runs?

[BCWWF]

It may have helped him hit a few more home runs, but its not the only supplement out there. If you don't think that every athlete is pumped up on various boosts then you are naive. It was banned because of what it does to your health not because of the it is a supplement. You should be arguing that baseball players should not be able to take anything, not pick and choose the drugs that you want to look down on.

[BCWWF]

Go look around this website:

http://www.gnc.com/category.aspx?id=25&lang=en

Then tell me that those don't do essentially the same thing as Andro and that those were all available to Maris and Ruth. Your argument is going nowhere.

[Moonax]

I suspect that none of those were being used by either Maris or Ruth when they hit their home runs.

Also, none of those things cause the body to prodyuce testosterone which is what Andro does and why it is banned.

[BCWWF]

They make you stronger, the exact same thing that andro does, but they use methods safer to the body. Andro was banned because it is bad for you, these are not banned because they aren't bad for you (generally). Its that simple, you keep bringing up how Andro makes you stronger when thats not whats in question. If you are going to throw one product down for making you stronger, why not throw them both down?

[ct2k]

I actually still have a little faith in sports. I don't think everyone is packed to the rafters with suppliments at all.

[Moonax]

They make you stronger, the exact same thing that andro does, but they use methods safer to the body. Andro was banned because it is bad for you, these are not banned because they aren't bad for you (generally). Its that simple, you keep bringing up how Andro makes you stronger when thats not whats in question. If you are going to throw one product down for making you stronger, why not throw them both down?

Why has TGH been banned then? It has been banned because it enhances the persons performance artificially. Andro was banned for the same reason. Caffine is also banned in athletics because it is a simulant.

Andro artificially enhanced McGwire's muscles which enabled him to hit 70 home runs.

Hence and therefore there should be an acknowledgement of this fact by his record.

[YOUR Hero]

So Barry had one extremely productive year hitting home runs. Look at Maris

Maris' home run totals:
19
28
16
39
61
33
23
26
8
13
9
5

Maris only had 275 career homers
And this is why the astericks.

It pissed of the baseball writers that a guy, that never had 40 HRs in one season, should be given the record that was considered unbreakable, without some sort of stipulation.

[Moonax]

As I say there are three points at which you can argue that if maris is going to have an asterix then so should Bonds and McGwire.

i) Additional Games

ii) Post expansion and the dilution of pitching

iii) the question of steriods/andro.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5329890/

Did McGwire deserve an asterisk?

Slugger broke Maris' mark while on andro, which has since been banned by baseball

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040417/040417_CARDINALS_MCGWIRE_hmed_2p.hmedium.jpg

Mark McGwire, has slimmed down noticeably since his playing days.

COMMENTARY
By Tim Dahlberg
The Associated Press

Updated: 4:01 p.m. ET July 1, 2004

Roger Maris’ home run record was tainted simply because he played a few more games in 1961 than Babe Ruth did a few decades earlier. At least that’s what the Bud Selig of his time, Ford Frick, wanted everyone to believe.



Maris’ big crime, of course, wasn’t that he got a few more at-bats than the Babe when he hit 61 home runs. He had taken the record of a national icon, and Frick wasn’t about to let Ruth’s legacy be diminished.

So Maris got his asterisk, Ruth remained the beloved Babe, and baseball went on its merry way.

If only it were that simple today.

Baseball’s home run records are a joke, shattered by hulking men with biceps that bulge suspiciously every time they’re jammed on a pitch and the ensuing popup finds its way over the fence.

Ask most fans, and they’ll tell you baseball players are juiced. Some most assuredly are, as the first wave of steroid tests last year proved when 5 to 7 percent of the 1,438 anonymous tests turned out positive.

Barry Bonds, the single-season homer champion, is linked almost daily to the BALCO steroid probe, even as he closes in on the career hallowed home run record held by Hank Aaron. Though Bonds angrily denies everything, sprinter Tim Montgomery reportedly testified that BALCO’s founder told him Bonds switched to a clear steroid last season to avoid being caught in baseball’s new tests.

While Bonds proclaims his innocence, he’s not going to win this one in the court of public opinion. With every look at his muscle-bound body and every blast into McCovey Cove, fans wink knowingly at each other about the source of his power that enabled him to eclipse McGwire’s single-season homer mark when he hit 73 in 2001.

Even a former slugger with some pedigree of his own questioned how Bonds could do it.

“Somebody definitely is guilty of taking steroids. You can’t be breaking records hitting 200 home runs in three or four seasons,” Reggie Jackson said a few months ago. “The greatest hitters in the history of the game didn’t do that.”

Despite the suspicions, there’s no asterisk beside Bonds’ name — at least yet.

But maybe it’s time for baseball historians to take another look at the slugger who preceded him into the record books.

Mark McGwire hit a then astonishing 70 home runs in 1998, the last two on his final two swings of the season. He did it with a jar of andro in his locker, which under baseball’s policy of see no evil, hear no evil, was perfectly legal at the time.

Times have changed, though, as baseball’s chief operating officer almost casually revealed last Friday. No one knew it then, but baseball banned androstenedione on April 12, the same day the Food and Drug Administration banned the sale of the steroidlike substance.

For some reason, the commissioner’s office never announced the ban at the time. The guess is baseball was embarrassed it took so long to prohibit a substance already banned in the Olympics, NFL and NCAA.

Regardless, the action puts baseball into a bind. McGwire, who broke Maris’ record and for a few years was the single season home run king, admits to bulking up on the junk when he did it.

Yes, McGwire was always a big home run hitter, hitting 49 in his first full season with Oakland. But how many of those 70 home runs in 1998 might have been warning track fly balls if McGwire hadn’t used something to make himself bigger and stronger?

Maybe, just maybe, Maris’ record wouldn’t have been broken then.

If there’s any doubt what andro did for McGwire, just take a look at him now. You’ll find him slimmed down and playing golf, a sport where bulging muscles aren’t encouraged.

Just don’t ask him about andro or steroids because he wants no part of the conversation, as was made clear when he attended Mark McGwire Day in April in St. Louis.

His former manager, though, doesn’t mind doing the talking for him.

“When’s the last time something legal affected anybody? He didn’t do anything illegal,” Tony La Russa said Tuesday. “It was an over the counter drug, he displayed it there (in his locker). It’s tying it with the steroid thing, but Mac did nothing illegal. He hit 49 as a kid, and he hit 65 the next year (after he hit 70).”

Former teammate Jim Edmonds agreed. He suggests baseball went too far to even ban the substance.

“Everybody’s trying to get bigger and stronger in whatever way they can do it, if they can get it over the counter, by all means,” Edmonds said. “Are they going to close down GNC because they sell things that help your body get better?”

Edmonds misses the point. McGwire himself said he gave up the substance in 1999 because he didn’t want kids using andro. And even though you could once walk into a nutrition store and buy the stuff, other sports had already realized its dangers.

McGwire won’t be taken out of the record books because he used andro. Baseball actually owes him and Sammy Sosa a debt for their thrilling home run duel that drew attention back to the beleaguered game.

But if Roger Maris can get a mythical asterisk for playing a few more games than Babe Ruth, then maybe McGwire’s substance-aided season should have one attached, too.

© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[YOUR Hero]

If I remember correctly, when McGwire was going after the record for HR's in a season, not only did they monitor the #61, they monitored the games played to get to #61. Mark, did get his 61st in less games than babe did in getting his 60th.

Therefore that would negate one "*"

The effects of andro, IMO, are more physcological than physical. Although it could be argued, as Yogi put it, the game is 90% mental and the other 50% is physical.

[YOUR Hero]

Roger Maris’ home run record was tainted simply because he played a few more games in 1961 than Babe Ruth did a few decades earlier. At least that’s what the Bud Selig of his time, Ford Frick, wanted everyone to believe.



Maris’ big crime, of course, wasn’t that he got a few more at-bats than the Babe when he hit 61 home runs. He had taken the record of a national icon, and Frick wasn’t about to let Ruth’s legacy be diminished.
That's what I was talking about. But also keep in mind, that when Maris was going for the record, he wasn't supported. People were actually against him doing it. That in itself made it a remarkable feat and should (IMO) negate the "*".