Randy Orton thoughts; Vs Triple H, character direction, etc. (spoilers)

[BloodRiotZero]

I dont understand how many of you guys consider Evolution turning on Randy Orton tonight bad booking? It makes total sense; Triple H's character obviously isn't ready to give up the spotlight to a kid who got too much too soon. I mean, we saw this coming the night Randy Orton won the battle royal on RAW and Triple H was less than excited for him.

Randy doesn't have to fight Triple H at the next PPV. They could do an angle where Randy just refuses to fight against Triple H because he was his mentor, the guy who showed him the ropes, and despite HHH beating him up, he still looks up to him. That right there can create sympathy from the fans and get them behind him. HHH and Evolution can continue to fuck Randy up and make his life a living Hell until he finally gives in. They could drag this on until Survivor Series or even the Royal Rumble. I don't see why Randy Orton vs Triple H has to be saved for Wrestlemania anyway. If anything, it would be nice to see John Cena (if they start pushing him properly again) against Randy Orton, as the seed for that match has already been planted.

And what's with all this talk about Randy Orton being a bland face now? Why can't he continue to be cocky and be a face? That's the problem WWE has when they turn heels face, they do such a 180 degree turn with them that they lose their "coolness" and the reason fans started liking them to begin with. It happened with Diesel, it happened with HBK, it happened with Brock Lesnar, don't let it happen to Orton. The only times this didn't happen was with Undertaker, Austin, and The Rock, and look at how popular they remained after their face turns.

Put a spoiler warning in the title if you mention anything about Raw before Friday, as the British poster don't see it till then. -Funky

[DaveWadding]

spoiler warning much?

[Hired Hitman]

"They could do an angle where Randy just refuses to fight against Triple H because he was his mentor, the guy who showed him the ropes, and despite HHH beating him up, he still looks up to him. That right there can create sympathy from the fans and get them behind him."

I would boo him for that... :-\

[Transplant]

"They could do an angle where Randy just refuses to fight against Triple H because he was his mentor, the guy who showed him the ropes, and despite HHH beating him up, he still looks up to him. That right there can create sympathy from the fans and get them behind him."

I would boo him for that... :-\

That makes Orton look a lil bit like a pussy. If they did a "you had your chance, Trips, but now its my turn" type angle where Orton refuses to wrestle him, I think it would be better. Not great, but better.

[Hired Hitman]

right, yeah.

[The CyNick]

The new era babyface; rufusing to fight! Thats pretty tough to get behind.

Anyway, Orton's main schtick as far as I can tell in terms of promos is that he acts like he's better than the audience, and as such, especially those of us who are older than him (makes me sad) hate him for being so successful. But as a face you just cant do that. You cant go to an arena and say "You guys are pathetic, you guys suck, you guys are unworthy of me" and expect people to get behind you. So he has to change. Unlike guys like Rock, Austin and Cena he doesn't have a schtick that I think people will pop for, and therefore I see him as a bland babyface. Who knows he might have something lined up to get over in promos, but I haven't seen it yet.

In terms of bad booking, the turn itself wasn't all that bad (I would have waited at least a few months), it was that they did it so quick and also that they booked Randy to act like a heel at the beginning of the show. So now he's ripped the fans, and it'll be tough to be a babyface and on top of that he's out of the ultra cool top faction. Its kinda like when they used to kick guys out of the NWO, generally getting kicked out was a negative thing to the fans and they didn't become huge faces out of it. So thats why I see this as a mistake.

[Aussie Skier]

The new era babyface; rufusing to fight! Thats pretty tough to get behind.


undertaker refused to giht kane 4 a while if memory serves

[Volchok]

yeah but the whole Kane Undertaker thing was diff. they played it off because he was his brother and he made a promise he wouldnt hurt his brother.. thats why when Taker came back from being out for like a week, he said he had to sooth his parents souls when he told them he would have to hurt kane... and i really dont think there gonna pull somthinhg like that with Orton. What they could do is have Trips believe that Evolution is with him, but then say not the next Raw but the Raw after trips tries to have Batista and Flair beat Orton up but Orton likes looks at Trips and shakes his head and then bam huge clothsline by Batista to Trips... but either way... Orton better get somthing the fans will want to cheer him for..

[The CyNick]

undertaker refused to giht kane 4 a while if memory serves

That was different, he didn't want to fight his brother. But once Kane "set him on fire", Taker was more than willing to whoop his ass. What Evo did last night is equivalent to the fire setting Kane did.

[BloodRiotZero]

My bad for not adding "spoiler".

As far as WWE doing the turn so quick, well, that's the "holy shit" aspect of it. If it were built to a turn for 2-3 months, it would have been even more predictable than it was last night. I honestly think the 3.2 rating last week had something to do with how quick this was done. Fuck it, maybe WWE should just go ahead and do Randy Orton vs Triple H next week or the week after on RAW. WWE needs to create interest in their show one way or another. I can hear it now, "WWE giving a way a PPV caliber match". Well no, because it obviously won't be a payoff match or anything, nor would it have a clean win. Back when WWE had strong shows during Attitude, they used to have PPV caliber matches all the time, and all they did was continue the storyline. I actually applaud WWE for not dragging out Orton's face turn for months, otherwise it would have been so predictable that the viewer wouldn't even have to watch to know he's gonna turn face.

As for Randy's character being a pussy, well that was just the first scenario that came to my mind. There are many places where this thing can go, let's just see what WWE's creative team has in store (which I think won't be much).

[Corkscrewed]

The turn itself wasn't bad. It's HOW it was done. Too often, the WWE has missed that important and subtle part of good showmanship. Like Cynick said, when you open the show with Orton making a heel promo, you're setting him up for a continued heel run. Suddenly, HHH attacks him from nowhere and bloodies him up... so now who's heel? Or maybe it's an intravillian battle. It still doesn't make much sense.

The smart way would have been to have HHH be "happy" for Orton but hide his frustration. Over a few weeks, it'd become more and more obvious that he was resenting his role as new second fiddle, and the turn would happen at, say, Unforgiven or a couple of weeks beforehand.

RAW has shown a worrisome knack for rushing things lately... Eugene's character, Orton's World Championship win, and now the Evolution turn.

[BloodRiotZero]

The show opened up with Orton giving a heel promo because he was still a heel at that point. Triple H and Evolution beat him up because they are jealous of his success; too much, too soon, went ahead of Evolution. Does that necessarily make Orton a face, not yet, but it gives HHH and Evo more heel heat, giving Orton that sympathetic face role. We all know Benoit is going to come to Orton's aid next week anyway, making him even more of a face.

[LK]

As far as Orton's character is concerned he doeasn't neccessarily have to change his character much. Did the Rock change hsi character when he turned face? No, he still acted like a cocky, arrogant asshole but he justed started acting like a cocky, arrogant asshole to the heels and he still didn't respect many of the faces.

As far as the turn goes I thought the attack was good but it happened to quickly. I liked the thumbs up and thumbs down thing that Trips did. I seriouslt hope thay wait for the match until a major PPV like Survivor Series, the Royal Rumble or Maybe even Wrestlemania.

[Flagg77]

It would be insulting to the fans, which WWE has always tried not to do, to have anything different than have Flair, Batista, and Stephanie's husband turn on Orton.

I felt that someone turning face in Evolution has been a long time coming. But if they want to stay true to things (i.e., HHH ever the consumate villain, Flair going wherever HHH goes, etc.) then they had to do it this way. HHH's character has always been consistently seeking the title, and he's proven before the turn that he targets anyone.

I was more surprised that Batista did not turn with Orton. Flair would have been more believable if he claimed that he went where the gold went but I would have like to see Batista split too.

I agree that the timing is too quick. I personally would have liked it if the Benoit/Orton rematch w/ a gimmick was put off for longer.

Props to Guerrero, Benoit, and the WWE for making these two reigns great and meaningful.

[The CyNick]

The show opened up with Orton giving a heel promo because he was still a heel at that point. Triple H and Evolution beat him up because they are jealous of his success; too much, too soon, went ahead of Evolution. Does that necessarily make Orton a face, not yet, but it gives HHH and Evo more heel heat, giving Orton that sympathetic face role. We all know Benoit is going to come to Orton's aid next week anyway, making him even more of a face.

But you say that like its a shoot or something. The WWE knew they were going to turn him, so why have him insult the audience? Beyond that, the last thing people saw on Sunday at the PPV was Orton defeating Benoit clean and then showing him respect. To me that made him a babyface. But then for some reason they turned him back heel with the promo on RAW.

And as Ive mentioned before, I cant think fo a time when sympathy turned a heel face. Fans today dont automatically say "Oh its so sad that guy got beat down, now I'm going to cheer for him". They cheer guys because they like their gimmicks and generally they like guys who are either badass dudes who kick everyone's ass or cocky arrogant guys who talk a lot of trash. So just because Benoit (who isn't that over as a face to begin with) sides with Orton, that isn't going to make Orton the #1 face in the comapny (which is what is needed).

Basically they shot themselves in the foot, they made Orton look like a punk and now I think its going to be much harder to get him over as a breathrough star.

[The CyNick]

As far as Orton's character is concerned he doeasn't neccessarily have to change his character much. Did the Rock change hsi character when he turned face? No, he still acted like a cocky, arrogant asshole but he justed started acting like a cocky, arrogant asshole to the heels and he still didn't respect many of the faces.


The big difference with Rock was that he had a bunch of catchphrases over as a heel and was much better in doing promos than Orton currently is. I mean what catchphrase does Orton have? All he really has is the Legend Killer deal, and yeah that could work for guys like Flair and HHH, but how does he get over in a promo against a guy like Batista or Edge for example?

The other thing Orton does in promos a lot is insult the audience, well no matter how many shades of grey they are, a babyface is not going to get on the mic and go "all you guys over 24 are losers", especially when most of their audience is over that age.

So like I said, Rock had his promos set up as a heel, and they were getting cheered, I haven't seen Orton's promos really get cheered. I think they would have been smarter to keep him heel for at least a few months so he can establish some new catchphrases and a style for his promos that could translate to being a babyface.

The way it is now, its almost like he's starting all over. It might work, I know Ive ripped this A LOT, but I do think it could work, I just feel they've made things so much harder on themselves. And I dont think its automatic that the people will get behind him en masse, but we'll see on Monday onwards.

[Loose Cannon]

Well the WWE had Orton open with a heel promo so they could throw us off for later. Might have worked had not they did that HHH/Orton clash right before the main event. Well worked on me none the less.

[Flagg77]

I honestly think that it would have been better if it was a Jericho vs. Benoit main event. Jericho has not only paid his dues in double but when I envision a #1 babyface on Raw other than Benoit (who is over with me b/c his gimmick is to not have a gimmick and go out and beat everyone anyway i.e., last week's handicap match with Orton and HHH) I see Jericho before Orton or anyone else from Evolution.

I loved it when he came out and said that he'd fight both of them anyway. From a storyline perspective getting in Evolution's collective face is always cool.

But Benoit vs. Jericho? That would have been a tremendous main event. They could have both been the way they are now. Even as a face Jericho has heel inclinations (see the whole Batista/Edge feud) so the excuse that one of them has to be heel is stupid. Of course it could just be that I'm a Y2J mark all the way too.

[Loose Cannon]

I don't. How is Jericho better then Orton right now in a storyline perspective? Who has he beat the last year? He has done crap. Don't get me wrong I like Jericho, but the WWE has done nothing with him where the fans can take him seriously as a #1 babyface.

[Innovator]

Jericho can come out, shit in the middle of the ring, and still get one of if not the biggest pop of the show.

[The CyNick]

Well the WWE had Orton open with a heel promo so they could throw us off for later. Might have worked had not they did that HHH/Orton clash right before the main event. Well worked on me none the less.

See thats what really upsets me about the whole thing. I think the only reason they did the heel promo at the beginning was in fact to swerve the audience. So what do you get? You probably fooled some people and made them go "I didn't see that coming", but in the process you weakened the angle and perhaps weakened Randy's chance to get over as a face.

That kind of "we have to swerve the 'net" line of thinking usually backfires. Its wierd how they'll say the internet doesn't matter to them and they hate us or whatever, and then they do stuff like that mainly for our benefit.

[Rock Bottom]

Well, let's look at the facts.

Orton is the strongest booked wrestler in the company along with Benoit. Orton has mowed through guys, won all his feuds, except the Edge one. But they had Edge cheat all those times. Then right after losing the IC title, he pins the top booked wrestler (Benoit) clean, which makes him #1 in my book.

Triple H has lost more title matches this year than I think he's ever lost in one entire year. This could be a case of loopty-loop. Although I really don't like it, Triple H is always somehow close to the title scene. Triple H doesn't beat Benoit, and jobs to him left and right, but now Orton beats Benoit clean. Triple H going over Orton maybe?

I think Orton is either going to be pushed to the moon with all the hopes and dreams of the WWE, or he is being used for Hunter to get his hands on the title without having to beat Benoit cleanly. I'm going to go with the former, out of hope, because of the fact that Foley came out of the woodshed to work with him. But don't be surprised...

If Orton remains heel, and sucks up an apology to Evolution, or Triple H just beats Orton for the title. I love the fact that Orton got the belt, I don't think it's too early. I think you push it while it's hot. I think he can do it. There's a difference between knowing the path and walking it. But all of these sketchy angles worry me. Not for the future of the company or anything, but it all seems too good to be true.