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KayfabeMan
09-23-2004, 08:59 PM
I was reading through the Big Vito Rate The Wrestler Thread, and saw a post by "BigDaddyCool" that was in reference to Big Vito. Post in question read:

"3, the guy was, and is a nobody. He was just some jobber with a
mafia gimmick. I still don't understand how guy like Big Vito are
getting 7.8 or even 9 when dudes like Nash and Jeff Jarrett you
know guys that will be remebered, and have done something get
an overall rating in the 60's 70's."

If I may....

A) With this logic, you're saying anyone who hasn't won a World Title or main evented a PPV / hogged TV time is not worthy of even being in the ring with or mentioned in the same sentence as guys who have. With that - guys like Dean Malenko or Ron Killings should never be considered A+ talents, because in 20 years, no one will remember them.

It also shits on guys like Johnny Rodz, Jerry Grey, Rusty Brooks, and others who are all great talents in their own right - and made the "big guys" look like a million bucks. Just because you have 'accomplishments' in an entertainment field that doesn't make you any better than the guys who have never been a main draw.

B) Nash and Jeff Jarrett may well wind up like most of wrestling's history - forgotten. Former workers like Maurice Tillet, Bobby Shane, Billy Watson and others are forgotten - while others like Rhodes, Race, Flair and Funk eat up the spotlight - due to thinking like yours.

Most guys fade right out of the business without so much as a whisper of their leaving. They don't even get the shitty gold watch. Things go from A+ to F in a short time, and they get forgotten about because logic like that.

It also makes no sense because often (through politics or otherwise) the guys who are mid/low card are better than the guys who are main eventing the same shows - and sometimes they're bigger draws.

Now, this is just my opinion, but here's an article from PWBTS.com that is very well written, and is just another man's opinion - one that I respect.

The Unknown Worker (by Kevin Malton)

The unknown worker.

You might call me bitter, and think that I am very much so at the end of my story but I can honestly say that I don't regret a single thing. Life is what you make it.

I started my career in the late 1980's. A close relative of mine was a very famous worker and after excelling in amateur wrestling at high school, it seemed like a natural progression for me to train to be a professional wrestler. I was trained by one of the most respected workers of his generation and it was an ardous and gruelling process. Straight out of wrestling school and I was introduced to my first territory. Over the first five years of my career, whilst I was still "green", I wrestled in Smokey Mountain Wrestling learning my craft with other guys like Steve Austin, Chris Jericho and Lance Storm to name a few. The dirtsheets at the time were full of praise for all of us, with each of us being tipped for great things. To be honest I never really made good friends with either of those guys; not to say we didn't get along, we just never socialized away from shows. I spent the early part of my career in the independents, learning, watching and slowly building up a reputation for myself as a trustworthy and competent worker. It was in 1999, after almost ten years of low pay offs, long journeys and many bumps and bruises, that I made it to the dance. I was offered a position with Ted Turner's World Championship Wrestling.

During talks with the head booker at the time, it was decided that I would use the gimmick that I had been using in the indies. The same day of my debut, and a veteran, who I admire greatly and still do despite our differences, complained to management about my gimmick. As this guy had a lot of stroke with the company and was well respected, it was decided that I would be re-packaged with another gimmick and an incoming girl friend of his would have a character based on mine. I was very upset about this as you can imagine. Not only was a great worker, that I respected greatly, being a dick to me, my now deceased relative's gimmick was not being carried on in the tradition that it should have been. I had made that character my own (as much as was possible) during my tenure in the indies and it was what my fan base, whilst modest, wanted to see me doing. Being the new guy and feeling very grateful to be earning a guarenteed salary and getting TV time, I didn't day a word. I was re-packaged with an awful gimmick.

Looking back, I can see now that the booker at the time was jealous of my relatives success. I do not understand the mentality, but as my pay check wasn't coming out of his personal pocket, I was booked to look stupid with this new gimmick. I decided to try and turn a negative into a positive. I never complained and knuckled down. I hated my gimmick so much, from my entrance music to the stupid flowing blonde locks I had to grow. Then I had an idea. I suggested that I needed a valet, and as a certain female had just been buried after leaving WWF for WCW (again, the WCW mentality), management decided it would be fine if I used her. It started slowly at first. A string of good matches on TV. I worked hard at house shows and always tried to make sure I had the best, or if not the second best, match on the card. A few signs started popping up for me at shows. I was given maybe two promo spots a month and I made the most of them. I cut amazing promos. I was showing the office what I had and that I couldn't be ignored. Of course, I was. I was feuding with a comedy character on PPV, and whilst I have respect for this guy and overall he is a nice guy, he was seen by fans as a curtain jerker. If I won the feud then it wasn't much of an elevation if any. If I lost the feud that would be the nail in my coffin. Of course I lost the feud and my partner in the feud went on to do nothing. Nothing was gained at all from our feud and our blowoff PPV match was nothing but a vehicle to bring in a singer as a special guest to plug his new CD. Shortly afterwards my contract was up and low and behold I wasn't offered a new one.

Since leaving WCW i've worked for several indie promotions. At first, I was paid a large amount of money to work, and they would put their title on me. I was a fairly well known worker and back then I was a big deal on the indy scene. During this time I attended a WWF event, as invited by one of my buddies who had since moved from WCW to WWF. I saw this as an opportunity to get my face seen and perhaps talk to some of the road agents or other officials. I was there for thirty minutes before a certain announcer, who has since been released by WWE, said to someone else "what's that loser doing here?" I promptly left, feeling humiliated and above all disrespected. I knew my WCW character was pretty much a laughing stock but surely people could see through that? That it was just a gimmick? That i'm not like that in real life? That I was booked to look stupid? It was at this point that I decided to drop using the gimmick that WCW gave me (and kindly let me keep after I left). I re-packaged myself as a new character. I hit the gym, really hard, and I now have a very good physique. I changed my hair and clothes. Soon after, whether it was due to my character change or because I had not been on TV for a while and fans were forgetting who I was I don't know, I was forced to drop my price for appearing at indie shows. My top whack price was $500 and promotors were no longer prepared to pay that much for me. At the moment I am lucky if I get $120 a show.

My problem I think, is that I am too nice for this business. I kept my mouth shut in WCW and let them ruin my character. I didn't give any verbal back to that announcer that bad mouthed me in front of my peers. I've never, ever refused to job to someone at an indy show, no matter how little I was paid or who they were (and believe me, there are a lot of dick heads around). I answer all fan mail, the little of it there is, and I take time to be polite to all fans at signings. I've even given up my Monday nights to go and watch RAW with a fan and her family on TV at their home. Why? Because i'm a nice guy like that and that I know she needs happiness in her life. She's been through a lot during her short years and if I can put a smile on her face I will do it.

At the end of all this, looking back, I wouldn't change a thing. I am happy on the inside. I've had a taste of pro wrestling at the top. I've partied with Ric Flair. I've had Chris Benoit ask me how I did a certain move and get me to teach him it. I've had Eddie Guerrero and Benoit put me over to the other boys in the back. I've been on PPV and Nitro. I've wrestled Rob Van Dam, Steve Austin and Chris Jericho throughout my career albeit a long time ago.

Who am I?

I'm the guy you ridicule in a chat room.

I'm the subject of a "where are they now?" thread on a message board.

I'm an answer to a trivia question.

I'm a never was.

See you in the indies.

KayfabeMan
09-23-2004, 09:02 PM
Also, I am aware that Killings won the NWA World Championship, but that doesn't do much for one's career when they're misused again - and certainly doesn't cement a place in history, otherwise TNA'd be mentioning Mike Rapada every other week....

Excellance of Execution
09-23-2004, 09:13 PM
Who is the mystery worker? Give me a clue.

Pepsi Man
09-23-2004, 09:58 PM
So "The Maestro" aka Gorgeous George III wants to write anonymously and not think anyone can pick out who he is, eh?

The CyNick
09-23-2004, 10:13 PM
When people say a guy was a "nobody" in wrestling, its all relative. Its like saying a pro athlete is a bum. Sure they are talented, making to the pros of almost any sport shows you are very talented, but when people talk about pro wrestlers, and yopu speak about guys who never made it past the first match its fair to say they are "nobodies". Its nothing against them as workers or as people, its just that in the grand scheme of things they are nobodies.

Jeff Jarrett wont be remembered 20 years from now except by the most hardcore of fans. Nash will always be remembered because he played a major role both in front of and behind the curtain.

The story of the unknown worker or whatever is interesting, but you have to take these things wityh a grain of salt. There's nothing worse than a guy who barely could make it to dark matches on WWE talking about how great they were and how they were underused. Everyone says that, and while its true some guys get overlooked, a lot of times these guys just dont have the talent to make it past the indies. Were this guys promos really "great" or were they just great in his mind? hard to say. Wrestling is a tough business, and quite frankly its nearly impossible to be a really nice guy and make it to the top. Very few have been able to do that.

Lara Emily
09-23-2004, 10:41 PM
So "The Maestro" aka Gorgeous George III wants to write anonymously and not think anyone can pick out who he is, eh?

Yeah guess so good Old Dale Tolborg.

KayfabeMan
09-23-2004, 10:46 PM
For me, I'm not really talking about him (The Stro) specifically.

To say in the grand scheme of things they are nobodies is kind difficult to do. In the grand scheme of things everyone BECOMES a nobody at some point. If you approach the majority of wrestling fans today and mention a name like Sammartino, he instantly becomes a nobody.

If you approach fans who only watched up until the 80's and ask them about Mick Foley - he becomes a nobody. Hell, approach some of the current fans (a lot of whom have just tuned in within the last few months) and they have no idea who Foley is, other than reading / hearing about him and such.

99.9% of the guys from the 60's, 70's, 80's and early-to-mid 90's have already become "nobodies", and during those periods wrestling was BIG. Today's guys won't be remembered much at all (if at all) if things don't change.

Just saying that even the biggest guys of their time go on to be forgotten, so basically, everyone is a nobody (and realistically, outside of wrestling most all workers are nobodies); and that basically saying a guy like Jarrett or Nash should automatically rate above a guy like Vito just because of their backstage status is :n:

Loose Cannon
09-23-2004, 11:51 PM
^^hmmm, I don't know about that. When I'm talking to people about wrestling who aren't hardcore fans like me, the conversation always goes to "Hey remember Koko B Ware?" or "Remember that guy Brutus Beefcake?" Coversations always go to the past even when I just met the person. Wrestlers aren't forgotten that made it to the big leagues as prime time players. At least in what I have experienced.

It's like this with all sports. You remember the good players in a certain era or the one's that just stood out to you.

Most of the Guys in the 60's and 70's I don't even know and weren't on TV, so they will most likely be forgotten. They haven't been conditioned in people's minds, so nobody will remember them.

MVP
09-24-2004, 02:22 PM
I think it just matters which wrestlers you grew up with. Veteran fans of the 60's will remember more than just Lou Thesz, Bruno Sammartino, and Buddy Rogers; as will fans who grew up watching in the 70's, 80's and on.

BigDaddyCool
09-24-2004, 04:56 PM
I was reading through the Big Vito Rate The Wrestler Thread, and saw a post by "BigDaddyCool" that was in reference to Big Vito. Post in question read:

"3, the guy was, and is a nobody. He was just some jobber with a
mafia gimmick. I still don't understand how guy like Big Vito are
getting 7.8 or even 9 when dudes like Nash and Jeff Jarrett you
know guys that will be remebered, and have done something get
an overall rating in the 60's 70's."

If I may....

A) With this logic, you're saying anyone who hasn't won a World Title or main evented a PPV / hogged TV time is not worthy of even being in the ring with or mentioned in the same sentence as guys who have. With that - guys like Dean Malenko or Ron Killings should never be considered A+ talents, because in 20 years, no one will remember them.

It also shits on guys like Johnny Rodz, Jerry Grey, Rusty Brooks, and others who are all great talents in their own right - and made the "big guys" look like a million bucks. Just because you have 'accomplishments' in an entertainment field that doesn't make you any better than the guys who have never been a main draw.

B) Nash and Jeff Jarrett may well wind up like most of wrestling's history - forgotten. Former workers like Maurice Tillet, Bobby Shane, Billy Watson and others are forgotten - while others like Rhodes, Race, Flair and Funk eat up the spotlight - due to thinking like yours.

Most guys fade right out of the business without so much as a whisper of their leaving. They don't even get the shitty gold watch. Things go from A+ to F in a short time, and they get forgotten about because logic like that.

It also makes no sense because often (through politics or otherwise) the guys who are mid/low card are better than the guys who are main eventing the same shows - and sometimes they're bigger draws.


I still say Big Vito is a nobody. And who the fuck is Ron Killings, some indy jerk the mainstream wrestling fans may know as "that black dude that teamed of with Jesse James for a month." As for Stinko Malenko, he'll be remebered as one of the guys that put over the greats, he will be a foot note in the story of the first Unified Champion's book.

Oh, I should feel sorry for the unremeber worker? Pfffft, not my fault he sucked. Now I know there are some amazingly talented workers out there that never make it do to this or that, but when people remeber back to the late 90's in wrestling they will remeber Austin, Rock, and nWo. And when they remeber nWo, they will have to reconize Nash, Hall, and Hogan. Now can you really say that Big Vito or Ron Killings is any where near Austin, Rock or the nWo? I think not.

And yes, by my logic, if they didn't hog up a bunch of tv, and main event pay-per-veiw after pay-per-veiw, they won't be remebered. It isn't to say they weren't good enough, but they didn't do something right to get to the top.

Shawn Mega
09-24-2004, 05:35 PM
No one will probably remember Jericho,Benoit,or Pillman and they got high scores.

Only a certain group of wrestlers from the 90's will be remember.

Hollywood Hogan because he is the biggest name ever in wrestling and the leader of the NWO/WCW days.
Flair because he is Four Horsemen and NWA. He had so many classic matches. No one will remember Arn Anderson but they will remember Flair.
Hitman because he is a ICON in Canada.
HBK because he had so many match of the year matches in the 90's. Plus,no one will forget the Ladder Match.
Scott Hall because of the Ladder Match and NWO.
Mick Foley because he played different personas and is the hardcore legend.
Austin because he started the Attitude Era and what you see today.
The ROck because he is so HUGE and the best ever on a MIC. Plus, he is the most successful wrestler to make it in Hollywood.
HHH because he will probably win the World title the most before his career over. Plus, he will probably own the WWE.
Owen Hart because of his tragic death.
Heyman because of ECW,no one will remember ECW wrestlers.
Vince,Bishoff and Ted Turner also.

THAT'S REAL TALK

BigDaddyCool
09-25-2004, 01:48 AM
No one will probably remember Jericho,Benoit,or Pillman and they got high scores.

Only a certain group of wrestlers from the 90's will be remember.

Hollywood Hogan because he is the biggest name ever in wrestling and the leader of the NWO/WCW days.
Flair because he is Four Horsemen and NWA. He had so many classic matches. No one will remember Arn Anderson but they will remember Flair.
Hitman because he is a ICON in Canada.
HBK because he had so many match of the year matches in the 90's. Plus,no one will forget the Ladder Match.
Scott Hall because of the Ladder Match and NWO.
Mick Foley because he played different personas and is the hardcore legend.
Austin because he started the Attitude Era and what you see today.
The ROck because he is so HUGE and the best ever on a MIC. Plus, he is the most successful wrestler to make it in Hollywood.
HHH because he will probably win the World title the most before his career over. Plus, he will probably own the WWE.
Owen Hart because of his tragic death.
Heyman because of ECW,no one will remember ECW wrestlers.
Vince,Bishoff and Ted Turner also.

THAT'S REAL TALK

I don't know about Jericho, he will be remebered because of the Unified championship, but that is it.

Loose Cannon
09-25-2004, 02:50 AM
No one will probably remember Jericho,Benoit,or Pillman and they got high scores.

Only a certain group of wrestlers from the 90's will be remember.

Hollywood Hogan because he is the biggest name ever in wrestling and the leader of the NWO/WCW days.
Flair because he is Four Horsemen and NWA. He had so many classic matches. No one will remember Arn Anderson but they will remember Flair.
Hitman because he is a ICON in Canada.
HBK because he had so many match of the year matches in the 90's. Plus,no one will forget the Ladder Match.
Scott Hall because of the Ladder Match and NWO.
Mick Foley because he played different personas and is the hardcore legend.
Austin because he started the Attitude Era and what you see today.
The ROck because he is so HUGE and the best ever on a MIC. Plus, he is the most successful wrestler to make it in Hollywood.
HHH because he will probably win the World title the most before his career over. Plus, he will probably own the WWE.
Owen Hart because of his tragic death.
Heyman because of ECW,no one will remember ECW wrestlers.
Vince,Bishoff and Ted Turner also.

THAT'S REAL TALK


you''re a moron. You seriously are. I've never called anybody that on here before too. Benoit and Jericho? Are you insane? If people still remember who the fuck Koko B Ware is, I think they will remember those two.

Vastardikai
09-26-2004, 01:21 AM
Hate to dig up this topic, but: Can you remember anything about Kerry Von Erich outside of the fact that he died of a drug overdose? If he wasn't featured in the Flair DVD, what would your opinion of Barry Windham be? What are your thoughts of Eddie Gilbert?